Kai Guy (NA)
: Modification of something I was curious about previously. Would it be possible to make it so that only the Moderators can see account names for Upvote/Downvotes? Ideally with a Time tag attached. Seeing the same string of accounts involved that all hit within seconds. Would that give you guys the tools needed to lock out the accounts being used to spam votes?
> [{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=izNvHU6N,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-12-14T01:30:52.157+0000) > > Modification of something I was curious about previously. Would it be possible to make it so that only the Moderators can see account names for Upvote/Downvotes? Ideally with a Time tag attached. Seeing the same string of accounts involved that all hit within seconds. Would that give you guys the tools needed to lock out the accounts being used to spam votes? This is subject to same concerns about what we have access to that I mentioned above, save that it likely requires even more work.
: so what you're saying is that it's a side effect of Riot turning a blind eye to all the bot farms in the real game to boost "player" numbers
> [{quoted}](name=Lux Is Mai Waifu,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=zc5d7vnN,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-12-14T01:14:16.903+0000)so what you're saying is that it's a side effect of Riot turning a blind eye to all the bot farms in the real game to boost "player" numbers This is not what I am saying, no. Had I wanted to say this, I would probably have used words closer to those you used here.
Barcid (NA)
: Simple fix to curb the flow of spam bots
>Require a minimum player level to post and vote on the forums, like level 10 or 15. There is. The vote manipulation is occurring on **Gameplay**, which requires a level 30 account to vote.
: Ty for the feedback, as always! :) - I'd like not to touch his pillars. I don't think they pose any gameplay issues and are a bit iconic. - You mean the sharp indicators? I'm not sure where else I could use those. :o - Ty! - That would at least be close to the click radius, yes!
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Sirhaian,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=ZRt5Mu1t,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2019-12-13T20:58:25.868+0000)I'd like not to touch his pillars. I don't think they pose any gameplay issues and are a bit iconic. Fair enough! I was kind of wondering about only about a 10-degree angle change to open the inside space visually a bit, but totally understandable. > - You mean the sharp indicators? I'm not sure where else I could use those. :o Specifically the clean, sharp lines that it draws in the bright blue-green, yeah. I was a little surprised not to see that color really replicated in the Q or W hitbox indicators -- a brighter, cleaner lead line traveling along with the Q projectile and fading away, for example. > - Ty! My pleasure! It's great to see this sort of update done. > - That would at least be close to the click radius, yes! Awesome! That'll do. :)
: Thresh VFX Update
So these are awesome. VERY few complaints here, but a few comments: * Not sure if it's in-scope or not, but have you considered making the claws on Thresh's ultimate not angled *quite* so far in? It makes the area seem smaller than it is. * E looks *amazing*, but it's odd not seeing those sharp ground lines on the other abilities -- thoughts on incorporating those a bit more into Thresh's aesthetic, or backing off on them a bit here? * Love the new auto-attack animations. They're fucking gorgeous. * Is the circular radius on the lantern showing time remaining also the target click radius? If not, is there a way you could better highlight the clickable area to make it stand out a bit more?
Quáx (NA)
: If the mods wanted to silence the bots, theyd simply have to turn off the option to downvote
Ah. So you're intimately familiar with the boards code then? Because sadly it's not as simple as hitting a "no downvotes" button, or we'd have done that fairly speedily.
: To combat upvoting and downvoting bots
It sounds like a great idea, but I believe it would require more access to the boards code than the Volunteer Team is able to provide. I'll suggest it to the team though just for consideration.
: Wtf just happened i just refreshed the page
The Downvote Nation attacked. Their incursions into Board-controlled territory have gotten bolder lately, and we're hoping they grow bored sooner rather than later.
Sukishoo (NA)
: I know a lot of technical things in forums as I help maintain one myself. It's actually on one of the more used forum platforms, so I understand a lot of that. However, here one thing I have seen you guys say a lot on here though, that the main page, hot, recent, whatever sorter people are looking at would get all messed up because of that. Though in a lot of forums those can be set to other things such as based around views or posts that are a much better way to control those things. It's the lack of software functions that this platform here has that is the real problem and should have never been changed too. The original forums definitely had a much better format for these kind of things.
> [{quoted}](name=Sukishoo,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ujj6Xjjr,comment-id=00010000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-13T19:40:35.470+0000)It's the lack of software that this platform here has that is the real problem and should have never been changed too. The original forums definitely had a much better format for these kind of things. I don't necessarily disagree, certainly, but we have to work with what we have. If I could magically add features things would be very different around here! :P
: That reminds me of a question I had: does the mod/board dev team have any way to contact RIOT about this issue? If so, have they said anything?
> [{quoted}](name=ZackTheWaffleMan,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ujj6Xjjr,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-13T19:37:20.346+0000) > > That reminds me of a question I had: does the mod/board dev team have any way to contact RIOT about this issue? If so, have they said anything? We have Riot contacts, yes. I am not the individual who would be talking to any non-Volunteer stakeholders on the coding side of things, however, and so I don't have any answer for you here. Apologies for that.
: You could have to do a captcha every time you want to vote on a post
> [{quoted}](name=ZackTheWaffleMan,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ujj6Xjjr,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-13T19:32:34.814+0000) > > You could have to do a captcha every time you want to vote on a post That's probably more on the Riot side than the Board Dev side.
EATARI (NA)
: I saw it suggested on a separate thread, and it might actually be a good solution. Albeit, it would take some site modification, so it’d take a while to implement. Basically, the suggestion was to __require a comment before voting__. Then, if botting was to continue, a comment would be left by the bot account, allowing it to be tracked and banned. It’s not necessarily the best idea, as it has its drawbacks, but it might just work. Would that be desirable or viable?
> [{quoted}](name=EATARI,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ujj6Xjjr,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2019-12-13T19:24:58.777+0000)I saw it suggested on a separate thread, and it might actually be a good solution. Albeit, it would take some site modification, so it’d take a while to implement. Basically, the suggestion was to __require a comment before voting__. Probably beyond our scope as volunteers, but I'll raise the thought to our Board Devs.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ujj6Xjjr,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2019-12-13T19:12:37.441+0000) > > I mean, the demands are also predictable: > > * Stop moderating content I don't want you to moderate. > * Quit. > > Those are the usual things we hear from people frustrated with moderation, and neither is especially actionable. could always disable downvoting, making it you either agree with it and the post gains traction or you don't and you go next, at least until a more suitable long-term solution is found
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainAntiHeroz,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ujj6Xjjr,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-13T19:24:37.614+0000)could always disable downvoting, making it you either agree with it and the post gains traction or you don't and you go next, at least until a more suitable long-term solution is found Not as easy as that, sadly.
Sukishoo (NA)
: They could but they hide behind the Main Page / Hot /ect being controlled by votes.
> [{quoted}](name=Sukishoo,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ujj6Xjjr,comment-id=000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-13T19:27:09.780+0000) > > They could but they hide behind the Main Page / Hot /ect being controlled by votes. That's *a* reason, certainly. There are other concerns about this on the more technical side that I am not the best person to explain. It's a bit trickier than hitting a big lever saying "no downvotes."
: ...Then, everything changed when the BOTS attacked
One or more individuals are spamming upvotes/downvotes indiscriminately. It's been going on for a little while now, and is indeed a bit irritating. Sorry they hit your thread.
: The moderators don't negotiate with terrorists. These are NA boards, remember?
> [{quoted}](name=ZackTheWaffleMan,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ujj6Xjjr,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-12-13T19:10:50.047+0000)The moderators don't negotiate with terrorists. I mean, the demands are also predictable: * Stop moderating content I don't want you to moderate. * Quit. Those are the usual things we hear from people frustrated with moderation, and neither is especially actionable.
: At this point we need some nuclear options. It doesn’t have to feel good it just needs to stop the infection.
> [{quoted}](name=Edge of Daybreak,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ujj6Xjjr,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-12-13T19:04:32.268+0000) > > At this point we need some nuclear options. It doesn’t have to feel good it just needs to stop the infection. I'm not necessarily *personally* in disagreement, but I'm also not the sole voice in the conversation nor am I in as good a position as others on the team to know the technical possibilities of the various options.
Quáx (NA)
: At this time? Emphasize please, did you guys have tools that coulda stopped this before and don't have them anymore? This guy doing this is doing it because they hate the mods and the team that run them. Maybe if you guys didn't delete every post and comment that wasn't all sunshine and daisy and was realistic in text, we wouldn't have this problem.
> [{quoted}](name=Quáx,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ujj6Xjjr,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-13T19:00:28.640+0000)Emphasize please, did you guys have tools that coulda stopped this before and don't have them anymore? Upvoting bots have popped up here and there in the past. There are a few ways to mass upvote content, and none of them are especially easy to address. >Maybe if you guys didn't delete every post and comment that wasn't all sunshine and daisy and was realistic in text, we wouldn't have this problem. We don't delete *anything* that isn't all sunshine and daisies, and never have. This time we just frustrated a much more dedicated individual/group than we have in the past, and they're taking an unusually large portion of their time to dedicated to disrupting the experience of other players.
Quáx (NA)
: Nothing. The mods will do nothing. They enjoy watching 300kilo irl player for rest of their life while they work at McDonalds 9/5 $15/hour XD
> [{quoted}](name=Quáx,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ujj6Xjjr,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-13T18:46:10.895+0000)They enjoy watching 300kilo irl player for rest of their life while they work at McDonalds 9/5 $15/hour XD Insulting Riot, the community, or the mod team really isn't the best way to express your frustrations. :)
: wtf is this vote botting on the hot page
The unfortunate answer is that we're somewhat limited in the tools that are built into the platform at this time. It's as irritating to us as it is to the community, and if/when we find a good solution we'll certainly consider implementing it.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=Bu3Axf7l,comment-id=000000040000,timestamp=2019-12-12T20:59:05.770+0000) > > I'm one of the leads of the mod team, and I have never seen a mod state this. There are a number of heavily upvoted and downvoted threads that remain unlocked precisely because we do *not* lock threads unless we are basically certain there is vote manipulation going on. Do you have any specific cases you'd like me to look into? https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/av2jJGFZ-suspended-for-leaving-lane-with-someone-who-started-saying-threatening-things-and-hate-speech tell me. how do you know the difference between a vote manipulator (I refuse to say vote bot because they don't exist) and an actual legit player who has a strong opinion about something?
> [{quoted}](name=Inkling Commando,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=Bu3Axf7l,comment-id=0000000400000000,timestamp=2019-12-13T02:24:02.462+0000)tell me. how do you know the difference between a vote manipulator (I refuse to say vote bot because they don't exist) and an actual legit player who has a strong opinion about something? Mostly because we have (by now) years of experience with seeing how fast popular threads accrue upvotes and downvotes, and what percentages of votes-to-views start to become highly suspicious. Are we 100% accurate? No, and we're always seeking to improve, but we're definitely more accurate than not.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=Bu3Axf7l,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2019-12-12T19:00:10.494+0000) > > Which we did previously, and we got a lot of backlash for it. We've talked about the possibility and determined that, at this time, we are not going to be locking all voting, although the option remains on the table and we may revisit it if the need arises. What about removing downvoting? Is that possible and has it been discussed already? Perhaps removing downvoting will at least prevent good topics from being hidden although it still wouldn't stop the issue of vote manipulation entirely. I believe it has been experimented with on the Gameplay+ board I but I'm not sure what the end results of that was.
> [{quoted}](name=OneMustFall,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=Bu3Axf7l,comment-id=0000000200000001,timestamp=2019-12-12T19:12:56.486+0000)What about removing downvoting? Is that possible and has it been discussed already? Perhaps removing downvoting will at least prevent good topics from being hidden although it still wouldn't stop the issue of vote manipulation entirely. This is something we've been actively discussing.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=Bu3Axf7l,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-12T15:02:20.499+0000) > > It's irritating, certainly. > > The thing is that, when we disabled voting in the past, we discovered the community *really* likes voting, and valued the features that require voting to work, such as the **Boards Home Page**, the **Hot** post sorting option, **Discussion View**, etc. The community has also seemed pretty good at looking for vote-manipulated threads, self-identifying them, and keeping good threads in **Recent** by posting on them and engaging in discussion. As a result, I'm not sure we're at the point where the nuclear option is necessary, given how much it frustrated people last time. if what the mods say is true (which I doubt given how corrupt and biased they are) anything that has too much upvotes or downvotes is considered "manipulated" will be promptly locked. so to prevent mods from going trigger happy locking all votes would be best course of action.
> [{quoted}](name=Inkling Commando,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=Bu3Axf7l,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2019-12-12T20:47:25.656+0000)if what the mods say is true (which I doubt given how corrupt and biased they are) anything that has too much upvotes or downvotes is considered "manipulated" will be promptly locked. so to prevent mods from going trigger happy locking all votes would be best course of action. I'm one of the leads of the mod team, and I have never seen a mod state this. There are a number of heavily upvoted and downvoted threads that remain unlocked precisely because we do *not* lock threads unless we are basically certain there is vote manipulation going on. Do you have any specific cases you'd like me to look into?
rujitra (NA)
: I was going to suggest a poll - until I realized that the requirements for voting on polls are even less than those for voting on threads (at least afaik) - so you'd run into an even bigger vote manipulation problem with it. There's not really a good way for you to get a poll of community opinion beyond trying it I feel.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=Bu3Axf7l,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-12-12T18:58:29.587+0000)There's not really a good way for you to get a poll of community opinion beyond trying it I feel. Which we did previously, and we got a lot of backlash for it. We've talked about the possibility and determined that, at this time, we are not going to be locking all voting, although the option remains on the table and we may revisit it if the need arises.
: Board devs/Mods should consider disabling voting altogether
It's irritating, certainly. The thing is that, when we disabled voting in the past, we discovered the community *really* likes voting, and valued the features that require voting to work, such as the **Boards Home Page**, the **Hot** post sorting option, **Discussion View**, etc. The community has also seemed pretty good at looking for vote-manipulated threads, self-identifying them, and keeping good threads in **Recent** by posting on them and engaging in discussion. As a result, I'm not sure we're at the point where the nuclear option is necessary, given how much it frustrated people last time.
: "But for someone just discovering the game it’s an important concept that they’re completely..."
>Champion Percentage Drop Rate is a static value (for all matches, I mean, yes of course it changes by level, that's what level means), and it has no place as part of permanent dashboard real estate. While I agree with most of your others (save coloring by trait, as class is equally important), I think percentage drop rate is super important information that should be visible. I know *most* of it, but it's still a needless memory burden that's relatively simple to include in the UI and thus should be there even if only to remove the need to memorize a spreadsheet.
: @Riot you should really reward the community for creating Champion Concepts that you use
> [{quoted}](name=The Hörror King,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=gjPp9dEO,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-12-11T19:39:38.928+0000)Someone created a Senna Concept way before release/ or any abilitys being decided * This was posted two months ago. * Senna was *announced* on October 15th, which is nearly two months ago. * This means her design, art, effects, voice acting, coding, and testing were effectively finished by the time this concept was posted. Add to that that Riot does *not* use player-created champion designs (all previous instances this is suggested have problematic timelines, simple designs it's easy to create separately, or tenuous connections at best).
: Uhh Riot, this is bad
I've removed the post here because of the potentially compromising account data shown. Please send in a support ticket to Riot about this issue.
: > [{quoted}](name=Calamitosus Cini,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dKoEVlcR,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-12-10T20:31:47.232+0000) > > gen discussion doesnt have to be about league. Ive been on these boards a long time. I know. I know that but still wanted to include it, how can he be a "specialist" when he's always posting about something that's not league of legends
> [{quoted}](name=Lenny Face xd,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dKoEVlcR,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-10T20:32:42.750+0000) > > I know that but still wanted to include it, how can he be a "specialist" when he's always posting about something that's not league of legends Specialist is a board-by-board designation. A **General Discussion** specialist, for example, is more likely to be a memelord than a *League* gameplay expert.
rujitra (NA)
: If others pick it up and magnify it, it should signify that maybe the contingent of users sharing similar opinions as mine is larger than you thought, and that you may wish to consider the views we have. If 95% of moderators have acted unprofessionally in their official capacity (I.e when responding to a complaint or taking a moderator action), then that’s not an excuse to not act strongly against unprofessional behavior. Again, this is my opinion - but if you are seeing anti mod rhetoric and simply discounting it because you think its “rhetoric” and not valid, that’s fine... but that in and of itself will simply amplify the amount of rhetoric. The largest drive of antimod rhetoric will always be when the community feels they are not being listened to or cared for by the moderators. If it looks like an “old boys club” where excuses are continually made for moderators remaining on the team after what should have never been considered acceptable behavior, then that will increase rhetoric. I take great offense to the fact you are attempting to change the way I speak my mind because you’re afraid I am increasing the rhetoric. At some point I hope you’ll see that maybe it’s not me - maybe there are actual issues with your internal processes and procedures for grievances that have caused people like myself to move from great respect for the moderators to feeling as if you are all just “going through the motions” for the “hat collecting”. You’re free to disagree and I hope you will - but please know that I have and will continue to voice my opinions as they have been formed over years of using the boards. Instead of telling me I’m wrong and that it’s being magnified, maybe take a look at why myself and others have begun to feel this way. If you’re seeing an increase in antimod sentiment, instead of blaming my tone, figure out why people are feeling this way. Obviously you do not have to change the program - but instead of complaining that we feel bad, do something to fix the reasons we feel bad. It may be hard - nobody wants to fire people especially if they’re friends - but if you want people to stop complaining about moderator behavior, then the community will want to see swift, decisive action when a moderator steps way out of line in an official capacity.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=00080001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-10T20:09:01.510+0000)I take great offense to the fact you are attempting to change the way I speak my mind because you’re afraid I am increasing the rhetoric. I'm not, actually. You're welcome to keep posting as you see fit. I was simply voicing my opinion in response to your post that you don't think we're intentionally doing anything and agreeing that yes, it does come across perhaps more negatively than you may intend. Perhaps it is intentional. Either way, I was voicing a personal frustration, not trying to change your behavior.
rujitra (NA)
: Obviously there will always be differing opinions on what qualifies as egregious as well, which is understandable. I mostly wanted to point out that I do understand that you handle issues - even if it’s not the way some of us would like to see them handled or if we disagree with the severity of the actions. I don’t think you’re doing a horrible job, nor do I think you’re intentionally doing anything to piss anyone off, even if it sounds like I think that way sometimes.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=000800010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-10T19:28:58.198+0000)I don’t think you’re doing a horrible job, nor do I think you’re intentionally doing anything to piss anyone off, even if it sounds like I think that way sometimes. My biggest concern with what it sounds like is that you have a tendency to make statements like the statement I responded to without acknowledging the difference on opinions or tendency to do most moderator warnings behind-the-scenes, and, in doing so, add ammunition to the anti-mod rhetoric that's especially high right now. If you disagree with us that's fine -- we expect people will -- but when you word it that way it comes across as much more of an attack than perhaps you mean, and others pick that up and magnify it.
rujitra (NA)
: I did not say you didn’t claim to have handled it (which we can’t verify in any way). It’s my opinion and obviously some others in the community that unprofessional conduct towards board members including “memeing” and being a jerk should not at all be tolerated from moderators, not even once.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=0008000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-10T19:22:08.782+0000)It’s my opinion and obviously some others in the community that unprofessional conduct towards board members including “memeing” and being a jerk should not at all be tolerated from moderators, not even once. Fair enough. Just note that the "not even once" policy would mean the removal of approximately 95% of all moderators, likely myself included. It's never going to be a policy to kick someone for one or two errors unless they're egregious.
rujitra (NA)
: They refuse to remove a moderator who treated a boards users horribly unprofessionally because “he has a propensity to meme”. Well, sorry, but when acting in an official capacity memeing is not acceptable nor should it be an excuse. There have been quite a few examples of mod misbehavior that are mishandled at least if they want to keep community trust.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2019-12-10T18:49:49.879+0000)They refuse to remove a moderator who treated a boards users horribly unprofessionally because “he has a propensity to meme”. Well, sorry, but when acting in an official capacity memeing is not acceptable nor should it be an excuse. Every concern about a moderator is reviewed, and we do take them seriously. Simply because someone has not actively been removed does not mean the issues have not been raised, concerns have not been discussed, internal steps have not been taken, or the moderator has not been told imminent removal is possible if things do not change. Our internal processes may not always align to how swiftly some vocal community members may wish us to take action, but the lack of visible action does not mean things have not been handled as we feel appropriate at the time.
: I had a mod argue with me and basically call me trash (in a very indirect and alluded way). When I called them out on it, they backpedaled on it. Some of the mods here are abusing their power for sure in very low key and subtle ways. I can't care to call them out on it cause they tried to argue about something but gave the saddest argument ever. I can't believe I got into a prolonged argument with a mod too lmao. The mods in player behavior seem to experience schadenfreude.
> [{quoted}](name=Prestige Vayne,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-12-10T17:21:54.912+0000)I had a mod argue with me and basically call me trash [in a very indirect and alluded way]. When I called them out on it, they backpedaled on it. Some of the mods here are abusing their power for sure in very low key and subtle ways. Do you have the thread this occurred on? If so, can you link it here or come to Discord and ping **@The Djinn**? I'd like to look into this.
SCP 106 (NA)
: They deleted your comments on my thread btw mr sirtauntsalot, because they VIOLATED the mods feelings
> [{quoted}](name=SCP 106,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2019-12-10T17:43:53.578+0000) > > They deleted your comments on my thread btw mr sirtauntsalot, because they VIOLATED the mods feelings The reason for the deletion was provided above. It has nothing to do with moderator feelings, as I'd have overturned the removal if that were the case, as I have done multiple times in the past when removals didn't stand up to my scrutiny.
: So...How do I build Crit items now? (Question/Serious Discussion)
So the changes are a lot less significant cost-wise than you think, and Yasuo actually wins out. Sure, Stormrazor increased in price, but you now hit 100% crit with one completed item and Cloak of Agility, while previously it required two. So you get your power spike much more efficiently than you did before. If the enemy jungler or mid has two full items by the time you get one full item and 800 gold, you're not farming enough. This is especially true because Phantom Dancer hasn't increased in price at all, so Stormrazor + Cloak is just 4000 gold, which is less than two complete items.
rujitra (NA)
: So your NDA prohibits you from providing updates to the boards such as “we have been in talks with Riot regarding making X change and it is being worked on” or “Riot has said that this change is not a priority for them”? You also don’t say anything about how this feels to us, the boards users. Even if you don’t think a strike or slowdown would do anything, there’s another issue regarding the lack of communication from Riot and the moderators. If you’re seriously prohibited Fromm communicating with us via an NDA, that’s an absurd NDA to agree to. NDAs are designed for personal information or trade secrets - not information that you should be telling the community as part of your position. If the NDA you signed does prevent that, then that is something you may wish to discuss with you’r Riot as to why they are prohibiting you from informing the community and being transparent on the boards.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=MdhVEcAg,comment-id=0007000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-10T17:07:49.507+0000)You also don’t say anything about how this feels to us, the boards users. It's as frustrating for you as it is for us, if not moreso, yes. But, frankly, you guys are about as informed about future Boards development work as we are. >If the NDA you signed does prevent that, then that is something you may wish to discuss with Riot as to why they are prohibiting you from informing the community and being transparent on the boards. I believe I will handle my own NDA as I find appropriate, and I do not need suggestions on the subject. I was also not using the NDA as an excuse or a cover so much as saying that I communicate as much information as I am allowed to. There currently not really anything related to Riot-side boards development that I currently know that you guys do not. That said, I don't believe I have anything more to add to this discussion, and I have answered your original question, so this will be my last post on the topic here.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=000d0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-10T16:31:37.384+0000) > > So, here's the update. > > 1. The original post of yours removed in that thread was for thread-jacking. This action was appropriate, as you had your own thread on that very topic. > 2. The moderator in question should not have responded to your post in that manner. That comment was removed by the Herald who removed your comment, and he had a talk with the moderator about that subject. > 3. Your response *to* the moderator's comment was a sarcastic aside which was equally if not more unhelpful than the moderator's comment, and so it was also removed. > > In short, don't sidetrack other people's threads and don't have arguments in other people's threads about the things you're sidetracking them on. This applies to both normal posters and moderators, and, in this instance, both were warned about their behavior. Fair enough. Thank you for the information. Just a final question. When is one considered thread-jacking?
> [{quoted}](name=SirTauntsALot,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=000d00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-10T16:52:38.380+0000)Just a final question. When is one considered thread-jacking? When you're making posts that are side-tracking the OP's topic in ways that aren't relevant to the topic. The OP's concern in that thread was a specific moderator action, and you started a conversation on evaluating the board **Golden Rule** and asking a series of questions not relevant to the OP's issue or concern. This is especially true when you already have your own thread discussing that sort of issue.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2019-12-10T15:02:36.241+0000) > > I remember that one. We had a conversation ourselves. Yes this is the one we had the conversation: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/community-moderation/R8Q1cu76-where-do-we-line-a-sincere-discussion > I did find it, yes. I'll have to check with another Herald on this one so I can be sure that we handle it properly and give you good information. Thank you.
> [{quoted}](name=SirTauntsALot,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=000d000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-10T15:06:59.305+0000)Thank you. So, here's the update. 1. The original post of yours removed in that thread was for thread-jacking. This action was appropriate, as you had your own thread on that very topic. 2. The moderator in question should not have responded to your post in that manner. That comment was removed by the Herald who removed your comment, and he had a talk with the moderator about that subject. 3. Your response *to* the moderator's comment was a sarcastic aside which was equally if not more unhelpful than the moderator's comment, and so it was also removed. In short, don't sidetrack other people's threads and don't have arguments in other people's threads about the things you're sidetracking them on. This applies to both normal posters and moderators, and, in this instance, both were ~~warned about their behavior~~ alerted to the inappropriate nature of the conversation (which is more accurate to the messages both parties received).
: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-12-10T14:46:38.218+0000) > > Do you remember the thread or mod in question? I would like to track down the moderator post you're referring to. The name of the thread (if the thread was deleted), OP of the thread, or mod name will be sufficient. Thank you for your response. Of course I remember the thread. The one where we had the conversation was : Where do we draw the line. I can lookup a link if you want. I had a very nice conversation with the herald who his name starts with U (cannot recall it as I am from mobile atm). The second post which was deleted was in the rhread " Mods not only have failed... ". ( Again i cannot provide a link but can do so later if need yo. ) I believe you can also check deleted posts and find it. No ? Edit: the threads are both up and running.
> [{quoted}](name=SirTauntsALot,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2019-12-10T14:55:25.648+0000)The one where we had the conversation was : Where do we draw the line. I remember that one. We had a conversation ourselves. > The second post which was deleted was in the rhread " Mods not only have failed... ". ( Again i cannot provide a link but can do so later if need yo. ) I believe you can also check deleted posts and find it. No ? I did find it, yes. I'll have to check with another Herald on this one so I can be sure that we handle it properly and give you good information.
rujitra (NA)
: >The outcome of a moderator strike? A worse board state for everyone, a time people who dislike moderation can active point to as better than the current state, and even less incentive for Riot to come to the boards or see value in the boards. Let's look at airlines - pick your preferred one which has had a strike/slowdown recently. Sure, the outcome for customers was slightly worse for a short time. But they got changes done. It seems you are too set on being against a strike simply because it will remove moderation temporarily. Fine - make it a slowdown then. Stop moderating more "minor" things such as bickering/insults. Let the boards go to shit, so that Riot takes note and does something. If that's removing the boards, fine. But until something is done, you remain a volunteer moderator of a site where the company you are "working" for does not care about you, does **not** listen to you, provides little if any support to you, and quite frankly is **using** you. The worst part is that your responses here indicate to me (and others) that you are *happy* to be doing this. I like Riot as a company for the most part. I do not believe they are intentionally trying to use you or give you the shaft. I think that the problem likely arises from some disconnect between whoever initiated the Boards project (likely still not in the role), whoever (if anyone) oversees it now, and the rest of Riot. While you may very well be voicing your concerns to someone at Riot or Support, that does not mean they are being acted on. It may very well be that whoever you have access to to complain does not have the authority or access *themselves* to do anything about it. For all we know as boards users, it's an overworked person trying to do the best they can with the project they were assigned to do. Obviously the people who have the authority to make changes are not listening to you because changes are not being made. Imagine a pipe that is clogged - you can keep shoving your complaints into it but they still aren't going to get anywhere. The only way you can get the pipe unclogged is to make the people with the authority remember the boards exist and realize the problems. They are not going to do so when you do not have access to them. I admire how you are trying - but there comes a time that trying does not work anymore and that another method must be tried. I am more than happy to accept that you're doing something - but nowhere in any of these replies have you indicated you are trying anything different. You continue to say, and we have heard for months/years now that you're complaining/bringing it up. I have not once seen a single issue or feature be acted upon by Riot. Not once. I may be wrong, but it is still going to be a very small number compared to the number of issues/features that have been brought up by boards users and the moderators say they forward to Riot. So obviously, it hasn't been working. How long will you continue to try the same tactics before something changes? If your answer is that you will continue for months doing the same things when they do not get things done, then that is unintentional futility at best, and being complicit in the lack of action at worst. You say it is hard to have reasonable conversation when I call you complicit. Maybe it is time you consider that by continuing to utilize the same tactics that do not produce results for month and month, being complicit is exactly what you're doing - either that or being willfully ignorant of the lack of results. Again, I may be wrong - but as I've said multiple times here, **we never get a single update or information about changes/communications**. If you have gotten different results, we don't know, because **as far as we can see as boards users, nothing is changing**. I'm happy to apologize and take back all I've said about you guys being complicit in the state of the boards - once you take the time to show us the results that are being obtained.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=MdhVEcAg,comment-id=00070000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-10T07:08:37.817+0000)**We never get a single update or information about changes/communications**. You guys know when I know and what I am allowed to tell you under NDA. But given the tone of that last paragraph, I don't feel like I'll gain much by continuing this conversation. You are free to believe what you want about me, my motivations, and how "complicit" I am. Other mods are allowed to do what they wish. My understanding of the situation, Riot's situation, the availability of Dev resources, and so on leads me to firmly believe your proposal would do nothing productive, and so my answer to your original question remains "no, it's not something I am considering."
Quáx (NA)
: 6 hours and no mod/herald/specialist of any kind has yet to say anything. FRIENDLY DISCUSSION BTW.
> [{quoted}](name=Quáx,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-12-10T13:57:34.669+0000) > > 6 hours and no mod/herald/specialist of any kind has yet to say anything. FRIENDLY DISCUSSION BTW. The Herald team is all EST or later, so when this went up 6 hours ago it was, in fact, slightly after 3am my time.
: Why people feel they are treated unfairly by the Mod team - A friendly discussion with the Mods
> [{quoted}](name=SirTauntsALot,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=HtAihato,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-12-10T07:35:26.292+0000)It is important to note that the discussion with the second Mod was made many hours after I had already posted that I am not happy with the Golden Rule. Do you remember the thread or mod in question? I would like to track down the moderator post you're referring to. The name of the thread (if the thread was deleted), OP of the thread, or mod name will be sufficient.
: I just would like to know why I got banned for this. here you can see I muted the teemo and then he started spam pinging me and I was a bit insecure cus it was my first ad game in a long time and he had called me a r*tard for dying once! also *note* that this was one game of chat log...(why is one game grounds for a chat ban?)(I reported him for calling me a r*tard and being overall unpleasant and he didn't get banned LOL) I don't understand why simply saying someone was being an asshole grants you a chat ban? he was being an asshole! and I was just trying to play the fucking game I mean seriously? **another note** I had traded pre game lobby for someone who wanted mid priority cus I was being nice! wow how lucky was I !!! he said "I should have adc'd" so I said "go ahead next time, don't bitch" I mean seriously these are the things you can say that will get you banned?? Riot as a company should be ashamed of the way they treat their player base... **last note** he was denying saying that he called me a r*tard so I called him delusional (which is also true given that he fucking did say it) I mean where does it end, what I just can't say anything in response or else im going to be banned? I didn't even insult him I was just stating facts. such as he was being rude, youre trying to tell me I cant swear if im describing a situation? you banned me because instead of saying he was being rude I chose asshole? or "lying" rather than saying "delusional" ? oh and of course our twitch jg rage quit at level 2 and didn't get banned for afking but I mean why go into that when we all know they don't care about griefing, inting or afking. this was the one game I had even responded because it WAS MY SUPPORT MY FUCKING LANE PARTNER... never playing bot again obviously without a duo but beyond that point it was my first game saying anything and it wasn't even flaming I was stating facts about the situation and yeah I swore a little bit... but I had honor level 2 on my new account and I was really trying to be positive... so why bring me down over THIS? Game 1 In-Game vajpounder2000: that trap do vajpounder2000: reported and muting vajpounder2000: pro teemo support stuck sidelaning vajpounder2000: you know honestly i havent played adc at all but i appreciate the teemo support with no utility flanming constantly vajpounder2000: absolutely astonishing support vajpounder2000: greawt but u did nothing in lane vajpounder2000: just leach exp and call me a r%%%%% vajpounder2000: wow great vajpounder2000: for u vajpounder2000: thats awesome vajpounder2000: so gives u a right to be an asshole? vajpounder2000: or u just sad on the inside and take ur rage out on others when they traded their role vajpounder2000: so someone else could have their prio lane vajpounder2000: perspective vajpounder2000: im just saying what ur doing vajpounder2000: ur tilting on purpose vajpounder2000: sad vajpounder2000: thats not an argument i already said its not a role i playu vajpounder2000: ur just bringing up same stuff because u dont have any argument vajpounder2000: ur just being a douche vajpounder2000: 21 minute quest complete vajpounder2000: great supporting vajpounder2000: damage doesnt mean shiot vajpounder2000: go ahead hten next time dont bitch vajpounder2000: u played teemo support vajpounder2000: ur so 1 d vajpounder2000: u think this game is an end all be all? vajpounder2000: just chill dude vajpounder2000: calling me a r%%%%% for literally no reason vajpounder2000: u called me a r%%%%% vajpounder2000: LOL vajpounder2000: "i dont have a problem with u" vajpounder2000: yeah u did i muted u right after and im oging to report u vajpounder2000: now im going to mute u again cus now ur just being delusional vajpounder2000: fucking take some random dudes role out of kindness and get satan as my sup vajpounder2000: gg report teemo and twitch
> [{quoted}](name=vajpounder2000,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=eHGdgA3h,comment-id=009c,timestamp=2019-12-10T04:17:03.717+0000)I just would like to know why I got banned for this. Sure. > vajpounder2000: just leach exp and call me a r%%%%% Repeating pejorative language is still bringing it into the game. Don't repeat things other players say. > vajpounder2000: you know honestly i havent played adc at all but i appreciate the teemo support with no utility flanming constantly > vajpounder2000: absolutely astonishing support Condescending behavior isn't appropriate. Simply mute and report. 1 report has as much power as 9, so you don't need to make a big deal of his behavior. > vajpounder2000: so gives u a right to be an asshole? > vajpounder2000: or u just sad on the inside and take ur rage out on others when they traded their role > vajpounder2000: ur just being a douche Now you're just being insulting.
rujitra (NA)
: I am curious if you don't think it will get their attention what **do** you think the outcome is? Do you think they will let the boards be a cesspool? Do you think they will fail to realize the fact that it is a deliberate slowdown? Do you think that they will attempt to remedy it without asking **why** the slowdown/strike is occurring? Strikes occur because they *work* when other options do not. I respect that you are in the position to choose (although I disagree slightly in that I feel strongly that a group of moderators could very well choose to strike even if you disagree personally in doing so). I do not however understand why, if it is as you keep saying that Riot refuses to implement changes and/or is too slow to listen to you that you will not take the measure. I think this is the biggest problem people have - it's not that there's no move feature, it's that this has been brought up for years and we never get updates on it. If you care about having a move feature (which imo you should for both moderation sanity as well as community focus) then "Riot said no" or "Riot isn't listening" is *not* an acceptable update to us. If Riot is not listening to you, **make them** in some way. Being complicit in a lack of understanding/updates from Riot simply because of an unwillingness or desire not to take drastic action when lower actions have not worked is simply irresponsible to those of us boards members you are serving.
Before I respond, I'd like to note a concerning trend that makes you difficult to talk to -- you have a habit of taking a hard-line stance on a lot of things to the point where you are willing to do things like insist your option is the only viable way or accuse us of complicity in something if we don't happen to agree with you. It's very difficult to have a reasonable conversation into responses like that. > I am curious if you don't think it will get their attention what **do** you think the outcome is? The outcome of a moderator strike? A worse board state for everyone, a time people who dislike moderation can active point to as better than the current state, and even less incentive for Riot to come to the boards or see value in the boards. >Do you think they will let the boards be a cesspool? I can't speak for them, but, were I in their shoes, I would consider no boards superior to un-moderated boards. >Do you think that they will attempt to remedy it without asking **why** the slowdown/strike is occurring? I do not think remedying it is a current priority for Riot. The boards *work*, by and large, even if there's a lot we don't like. At a time their dev team is undoubtedly doing work to support new sites and tech for the upcoming games there isn't the bandwidth to rebuild the boards platform. >I do not however understand why, if it is as you keep saying that Riot refuses to implement changes and/or is too slow to listen to you that you will not take the measure. Because I have an understanding of the way company priorities dictate the time and resource expenditure of a company, and I understand that pushing out new games and new clients requires a lot of work from teams that might otherwise be working on things like the Boards which are, ultimately, lesser priorities with alternative solutions. >If Riot is not listening to you, **make them** in some way. You overestimate the sway I have greatly, and, frankly, I won't be bossed around like this by you. I'm sorry if that's blunt, but I feel very much like you're trying to strong-arm me based on your opinion here, and I don't appreciate that. Riot *is* listening, and they are well aware of the concerns. Neither I *nor* the entire Boards community has the sway I believe necessary to force Riot's development bandwidth to prioritize the boards, especially as *it's entirely possible the boards get redesigned and/or changed to support the upcoming games*. I honestly don't know.
rujitra (NA)
: Unfortunately sometimes in businesses strikes are necessary tools when the business does not listen to the “employees”. As I said, potentially a solution is a “slowdown” as common in non US countries - urgent work continues but no projects are worked on and moderation would be limited to things such as pornography/fraud links. While I respect your opinion, obviously the people who make these choices are not listening to your concerns. They will have to listen to them if there is no moderation in the boards, or have to find new moderators who are complicit. I don’t agree with sitting back and saying “well, nothing’s getting done now so there’s nothing more we can do”. Making the boards worse would be seen by at least some Rioters who would then start asking why internally - which would be the reason they start asking why.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=MdhVEcAg,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T22:15:59.435+0000)While I respect your opinion, obviously the people who make these choices are not listening to your concerns. They will have to listen to them if there is no moderation in the boards, or have to find new moderators who are complicit. And while I respect your opinion, I am the only one of us *in* the position to make that choice, and I am also in a better position to understand how much sway the mod team and the boards have, and how much leverage we have to force the hand of Riot. If I thought there was a reasonable chance of such a course of action succeeding I would say so. >I don’t agree with sitting back and saying “well, nothing’s getting done now so there’s nothing more we can do”. Nobody has been saying that, and we've been doing internal work to see what we can do and making sure Riot is aware of the concerns. The fact that we're not taking the approach *you* feel is best does not mean nothing is being done towards making progress.
rujitra (NA)
: Has the moderator team considered either resigning or taking off a day or two in protest? If the moderator team keeps up this “well, let’s do what we can as if everything’s okay” then of course riot won’t do anything.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=MdhVEcAg,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-12-07T05:26:26.747+0000)Has the moderator team considered either resigning or taking off a day or two in protest? No, because all that will do is make the boards worse for a few days. Riot is aware of the situation, but we don't have the power or sway by our presence or absence to reach the people who would need to make those decisions any more than the concerns we have already passed on would. All we would realistically do is make life worse for the Rioters who work with us and who have, I am sure, already communicated the community and mod team's frustrations.
iMidg3t (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=Q8eTXm3c,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-09T13:37:16.724+0000) > > Saying "this server has higher toxicity than others in my experience / the experience of casters talking about it" is not insulting to specific EUW players any more than "NA is the least competitively skilled region" would be to specific NA players. Thats not what was said. It was said that a player cannot get the honor back because he's on EUW, implying that hes toxic because hes playing on EUW. Thats just generalizing. If I said that some random-ass player is garbage at the game because hes from NA, would that be okay? I dont think so. > Calling people "American scum," however, is directly insulting based on nationality. Hell, if the original comment had been "EUW scum" it would be gone alongside yours. As it is, however, one is directly insulting and one was just a statement about aggragate toxicity on the server. For the third time, and i hope the last time I AM NOT ARGUING IF MY COMMENT WAS PUNISHABLE OR NOT I KNOW I FULLY DESERVE IT. Oh and it wasnt a statement, read it again pls. Sice when is saying "a player cant get his honor back because hes from EUW, even casters say that server is toxic" a statement? Thats not a statement, thats just an insulting jab at the entire region. But since I dont have mental energy to deal with this shit anymore, I'll just be straight forward, Is it okay to insult a server/region? Yes or no?
> [{quoted}](name=iMidg3t,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=Q8eTXm3c,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-12-09T16:06:19.982+0000)It was said that a player cannot get the honor back because he's on EUW, implying that hes toxic because hes playing on EUW. Thats just generalizing. I consulted with a few other moderators, and we're in agreement that our interpretation is that the poster in question was pointing out that it is harder to be well-behaved in a toxic environment, rather than implying the OP must be toxic because he is on EUW. The post does not have the obvious signs of an offensive or insulting post, and with three moderators all supporting that interpretation I will not be removing the post in question.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=R8Q1cu76,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-09T14:14:59.981+0000) > > Like **Ulanopo**, I disagree with this assertion. > That's fair. > The vast majority of things do *not* need a disclaimer, even *though* people get offended. If I say "I don't like cats" and that bothers someone, the issue is not with my statement, and if they get offended by that that's unfortunate but not my responsibility. Such a comment would never be removed. > How does the phrase "Riot Apologist" sound. I am having trouble to comprehend why this is so offensive that it can get a whole post removed. Neither each word nor the combination of the two words is offensive. > Things become a bit trickier with "I don't like Yasuo mains." This implies that you have a specific grievance with a specific type of player based on personal bias towards those individuals, which is skirting the border of what is acceptable here. A better approach would be "I don't come across many Yasuo players I've liked," which avoids the blanket statement and makes it more about personal experience. Fair enough. > Things become outright problematic with statements like "Yasuo mains don't know how to play the game" or "Yasuo mains are self-absorbed players," which I hope I don't need to elaborate on. > Okay. I'll need to stop you there. So for example, if I gathered statistics and I could prove that (based on statistics) players who tend to play X champ tend to be self-absorbed, that will be deemed offensive? > *Constructive* criticism is allowed. It's not that much of a stretch to ask for "Yeah, Yasuo can be a tough match-up. What about him gives you trouble? Maybe we can give you some specific tips" instead of "Get good. Yasuo's easy to beat." Hell, even "Yeah, in your MMR Yasuo's a brutal match-up. Looking over your games you tend to not get a lot of farm early, which is definitely putting you further behind. If you can work on that, you can probably do better against him." That's criticism, yes -- you're effectively saying "you're fairly low MMR and you can't farm well," but you're doing so in a constructive, respectful fashion. That is not criticism, that's advice. Criticism is never pleasant, that is the whole purpose of criticism. You can see critics doing that all the time on movies, art, songs and books. Overall, I think you have contributed well to this. However, I would appreciate if the rules would be modified in a way to provide some examples or make it even more clear. Also many times I see double standards on the boards. I don't believe that's okay. A good rule should: 1) Do good for the greater good without violating individual rights. 2) Be understandable, clear and unambiguous 3) Be made public. 4) Be enforced. Currently, I believe only number 3 and 4 are happening and even those can be improved I believe. I could provide examples on how to do this.
> [{quoted}](name=SirTauntsALot,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=R8Q1cu76,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-12-09T17:44:40.811+0000)How does the phrase "Riot Apologist" sound. Bad. Rather than digging into the player's argument, you are dismissing them and being condescending because they are on the opposing side of the argument from you. That is not constructive criticism, but rather unnecessary condescension that is actively harmful to reasonable discussion. > Okay. I'll need to stop you there. So for example, if I gathered statistics and I could prove that (based on statistics) players who tend to play X champ tend to be self-absorbed, that will be deemed offensive? This is why this stuff is tricky. If you did a legitimate study of player personalities and playstyles and presented that data, you would probably be fine (depending on the presentation). If you responded to a Yasuo player with "you're statistically likely to be self-absorbed" that would likely NOT be fine, even if you linked the survey. The difference is one is a presentation of data gathered, and the other uses data gathered to make insulting assumptions about a specific player. >Criticism is never pleasant, that is the whole purpose of criticism. You can see critics doing that all the time on movies, art, songs and books. ***Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.*** If you follow the above, you should be fine. > Overall, I think you have contributed well to this. However, I would appreciate if the rules would be modified in a way to provide some examples or make it even more clear. We considered this, and opted to avoid it. The problem with this sort of thing is that there will *always* be numerous edge cases and exceptions, in both directions. We want the rules to be understood, yes, but we also want them to be approachable, and we can't devote the pages and pages of space it would take to give examples of even the most *common* edge-cases. It's simply not reasonable, and would *still* not meaningfully reduce confusion. > 1) Do good for the greater good without violating individual rights. > 2) Be understandable, clear and unambiguous > 3) Be made public. > 4) Be enforced. > > Currently, I believe only number 3 and 4 are happening and even those can be improved I believe. In my opinion #1 is actually not valid here, as posters do *not* actually have individual rights on the Boards. If the content you post violates rules, you do not have a right to post that content, period, end of story. If you violate the rules enough you do not have a right to continue using the boards, period, end of story. \#2 is, ultimately, impossible. We do try and I'm open to looking at places clarity can be increased, but we are not looking at providing unambiguous rules that will only be enforced to the precise letter of the rules. I've moderated boards like that before, and all it does is lead to people finding the worse ways they can to circumvent the spirit of the rules while *technically* following the letter. We're not going to have that here.
iMidg3t (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=Q8eTXm3c,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-12-09T13:37:16.724+0000) > > Saying "this server has higher toxicity than others in my experience / the experience of casters talking about it" is not insulting to specific EUW players any more than "NA is the least competitively skilled region" would be to specific NA players. Thats not what was said. It was said that a player cannot get the honor back because he's on EUW, implying that hes toxic because hes playing on EUW. Thats just generalizing. If I said that some random-ass player is garbage at the game because hes from NA, would that be okay? I dont think so. > Calling people "American scum," however, is directly insulting based on nationality. Hell, if the original comment had been "EUW scum" it would be gone alongside yours. As it is, however, one is directly insulting and one was just a statement about aggragate toxicity on the server. For the third time, and i hope the last time I AM NOT ARGUING IF MY COMMENT WAS PUNISHABLE OR NOT I KNOW I FULLY DESERVE IT. Oh and it wasnt a statement, read it again pls. Sice when is saying "a player cant get his honor back because hes from EUW, even casters say that server is toxic" a statement? Thats not a statement, thats just an insulting jab at the entire region. But since I dont have mental energy to deal with this shit anymore, I'll just be straight forward, Is it okay to insult a server/region? Yes or no?
> [{quoted}](name=iMidg3t,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=Q8eTXm3c,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-12-09T16:06:19.982+0000)It was said that a player cannot get the honor back because he's on EUW, implying that hes toxic because hes playing on EUW. Thats just generalizing. I can see this interpretation. I'm just not sure I agree with it as a primary reading. I'll get a second opinion on it though, because I did miss that the first time around. > Is it okay to insult a server/region? Yes or no? No, but the definition of "insult" has a bit more wiggle room when referring to ambiguous collectives. Not everything one individual considers insulting is something that we will necessarily agree is insulting when applied to a server.
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The Djinn

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