Rioter Comments
GigglesO (NA)
: So about all those 1-2% pickrate champs (that pretty much only mains play) that have ~50% winrate and below. Those guys would say otherwise.
> [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p76qcNsv,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-03-17T23:26:20.475+0000) > > So about all those 1-2% pickrate champs (that pretty much only mains play) that have ~50% winrate and below. Those guys would say otherwise Evidently, it's not only mains. Otherwise the number would match the number for win rate based on games played, some of them reaching as high as 58%. And "there are weak champs" doesn't make champs at 52-53% win rate overpowered.
GigglesO (NA)
: Why aren't we nerfing Riven, Vayne, Zed.
Because 53% isn't overpowered, and having a high pick rate only means it's even more reliable to say they're in an okay spot.
Dynikus (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=INgbOF9H,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-17T21:57:30.280+0000) > > Counter-picking is not counter-play. Two very distinct things. And leaving the shroud doesn't mean much when she has three dashes anyway. > > I don't understand how people still haven't figured out that saying "you should've counterpicked" in a game with random pick order isn't a defense of broken champs they like. akali isn't broken. Are you feeling okay? She's literally one of the worst champions right now after she got completely gutted.
> [{quoted}](name=Dynikus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=INgbOF9H,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-17T22:04:48.058+0000) > > akali isn't broken. Are you feeling okay? She's literally one of the worst champions right now after she got completely gutted. The shroud is a broken ability. It's the entire reason she has to have such other hefty feast-or-famine style and isn't allowed to have too many other strengths. You seem to be misunderstanding the difference between broken and overpowered. They aren't the same thing, either.
: No it's called AOE her Shroud, i don't understand how people still haven't figured this out yet. If you don't have AOE then just walk away from the shroud and don't fight. You don't have to get kills to win the lane, I don't see why everyone is so gung-ho to fight. I don't know why you are so salty about it either she gets hard countered by just about anyone who out ranges her.
> [{quoted}](name=bloodshed12,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=INgbOF9H,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-17T21:49:45.438+0000) > > No it's called AOE her Shroud, i don't understand how people still haven't figured this out yet. If you don't have AOE then just walk away from the shroud and don't fight. You don't have to get kills to win the lane, I don't see why everyone is so gung-ho to fight. I don't know why you are so salty about it either she gets hard countered by just about anyone who out ranges her. Counter-picking is not counter-play. Two very distinct things. And leaving the shroud doesn't mean much when she has three dashes anyway. I don't understand how people still haven't figured out that saying "you should've counterpicked" in a game with random pick order isn't a defense of broken champs they like.
: I don't like the tails on the new Kayle and Morgana.
You know, just throwing in terms you don't know doesn't make you sound more knowledgeable.
: A Trend in Original Champion Designs
It'd be very strange to make a character with the motivation to fight the likes of Cho'gath, Rengar, Thresh, Nautilus, Karthus, etc., etc., etc., without the proper background or personality necessary to have said motivation. So I disagree with you entirely. The reason people tend not to like bright, bubbly characters in their _fighting_ games is because bright, bubbly characters either shouldn't have the motivation to fight to the death, or shouldn't be on par with the characters who do. If they are, then it's poor writing and poor character design. The character simply doesn't fit into the world the writers have created. Runeterra is a world rife with warfare, and there are plenty of average soldiers who aren't good enough to be considered "champions". Adding in a character with no motivation to fight and that doesn't even attempt to have the skills to do so is just poor writing. That'd be like making Arm-Fall-Off-Boy the star of a serious, Dark Knight style movie AND keeping him in his goofy purple costume. That said, the writers do a decent job of giving characters motivation where the designers failed. Neeko's people were killed, Zoe was a sociopath even before the Aspect chose her.
: I never said that Vi's performance would go down. My only point is that Rageblade is a stupid item on her and no one is building it.
> [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJKZT4fY,comment-id=000300000000000100000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-17T01:56:35.978+0000) > > I never said that Vi's performance would go down. My only point is that Rageblade is a stupid item on her and no one is building it. 1. Just because people aren't buying it doesn't mean it hasn't become a better option than it was before. 2. Uhuh, sure buddy. So nerf means "performance up" now, right.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-16T00:11:40.139+0000) > > Champions are supposed to be BALANCED where they're strong, not overpowered. What you're asking is for him to be completely overpowered below plat just so he can be a little better in Diamond, when he's already performing fine in diamond. And that's not a good thing to suggest. How is Garen being at 54% overpowered, when all the other high win rate champs from iron all the way up to challenger hovers there and higher?
> [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-16T01:52:55.802+0000) > > How is Garen being at 54% overpowered, when all the other high win rate champs from iron all the way up to challenger hovers there and higher? Other champions being overpowered isn't an excuse to suggest more champions be made overpowered....
: So how about that Rageblade VI, hey? Oh wait.
> [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJKZT4fY,comment-id=0003000000000001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-16T02:20:33.189+0000) > > So how about that Rageblade VI, hey? Oh wait. I only said it would become an _option._ But hey, look, Vi's performance is UP. Wow. It's almost like you never knew what you were talking about.
: Riven Power Trim Idea
That's not a trim, that's a decapitation.
: Well a counter question is..... What if he wasn't undead in this battle? (this fight doesn't include lore like that)
> [{quoted}](name=TKO Pikachu,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Ql0Uz9eA,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-16T00:21:53.294+0000) > > Well a counter question is..... What if he wasn't undead in this battle? (this fight doesn't include lore like that) If you're not including lore, then are you just saying... dudes of those sizes with no magic or weapons? Sion's quite large in the recent cinematic, but Mordekaiser is even bigger than him in the Mortal Reminder one, assuming Yorick, Karthus, and Olaf are relatively average tall men. Or do you mean both of them prior to dying? Then, it still seems it took far more men combining their efforts to kill Mordekaiser, while Sion eventually died to one man.
: Why is there a magical barrier between pre- and post 30 games?
As for the actual reason why, 30 used to the cap and you couldn't play Ranked until then. Now it's there mainly to prevent new players from playing ranked, and they'e kept from being matched with higher players in norms too.
: What if Sion and Mordekaiser had a fight?
The question is, would it be easier to take Sion's soul out of his body because he's undead already, or harder?
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T08:32:54.266+0000) > > Which champions are you referring to? You keep saying "other low elo champions are doing better" but providing no names. > > I never said it was okay for them, either. And what ARE you saying, if you're not saying Garen should be _performing_ better in Diamond? > > I didn't say he'd jump to Mord's old strength from a tiny change. I said Mord is an example of how that can go wrong. And in essence, your suggestion that they add a better timing mechanic to Garen's W IS a suggestion to rework part of him. All I'm saying is that that doesn't go far enough. Reworks are usually done to make an outdated character easier to fix, not just flat out stronger. And that is why Garen needs one. Yorick, Wukong, Nasus, Kayle, Swain, not to mention the dozens of champions outside of top lane. Of course I'm saying that Garen should perform better in Diamond. By how much, idk it doesn't matter. Like I've already said multiples times. Garen has to be balanced around low elo. As of right now, his performance is underwhelming in the lowest of elo compared to the other champions win rates. And you can easily look that up for yourself. Bringing Garen back up to a 54 win rate, would make him a strong champion where he's supposed to be strong, and would help him in high elo just enough to make him not as frustrating to play and would appease people like me that play him outside of Gold and below.
> [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T14:37:07.811+0000) > > Yorick, Wukong, Nasus, Kayle, Swain, not to mention the dozens of champions outside of top lane. Of course I'm saying that Garen should perform better in Diamond. By how much, idk it doesn't matter. Like I've already said multiples times. Garen has to be balanced around low elo. As of right now, his performance is underwhelming in the lowest of elo compared to the other champions win rates. And you can easily look that up for yourself. Bringing Garen back up to a 54 win rate, would make him a strong champion where he's supposed to be strong, and would help him in high elo just enough to make him not as frustrating to play and would appease people like me that play him outside of Gold and below. Champions are supposed to be BALANCED where they're strong, not overpowered. What you're asking is for him to be completely overpowered below plat just so he can be a little better in Diamond, when he's already performing fine in diamond. And that's not a good thing to suggest.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T03:09:11.130+0000) > > It seems like you either aren't reading or I'm not explaining properly. > > The performance you can expect from mastering him is very low, to match the fact that the amount of _skill needed_ to master him completely is also extremely low. > > _No_ champion should see 55-60% win rate at any level of play. That is not just my opinion, but what we've seen from Riot's balancing decisions (Ryze's performance in pros is a good example). > > And for Garen, trying to bump him up 2% in Diamond with just straight up buffs would result in a 10% bump in iron to gold. So it's better to leave him _balanced_ at the level of play his kit is suited for-- 51% in Iron - Silver-- and only slightly underperforming in Diamond. > > If I'm not being clear enough, just look at what Mordekaiser did to worlds in 2015. THAT is what you get when you try to make a kit that isn't suited for fighting coordinated teams strong enough to do so. You just end up with stats too big to beat regardless of skill. Your explanation isn't at fault, it's your premise. Not once have I mentioned any sort of specific percentage that Garen needs to be buffed to, in high or low elo, and I already specifically said he needs to be balanced around low elo. But since you mention it yet again, no a 51% win rate in Iron, is not acceptable for one of the easiest kits in the game. The highest win rate champions in low elo are around 54-55%. If it's acceptable for them, it should definitely be acceptable for Garen. It's absurd that Garen is not allowed to be that strong in low elo when others are when he should be. And the thing is, Garen was that strong or close to it for at a time in season 8, and the reasoning was he was underwhelming compared to Darius. Then that buff got slightly reverted, It was felt but Garen was still ok. Then Darius got a large buff in the worlds patch, and since then Garen was hit with a large indirect nerf (celerity) which i understand. Celerity was being abused by some champs like Hecarim, Quinn, ect. I'd also point out that the steraks change was another indirect nerf to Garen. Another one that I understand and agree with, changing steraks made it useful for more champs and nerfed the triforce interaction. But it still indirectly nerfed Garen against the majority of his lane opponents because Garen was one of the few bruisers who's abilities scale from total ad rather than bonus. That item was just simply better on Garen than Darius, Renekton, ect. As it sits, Garen is more underwhelming right now compared to the other bruisers, especially Darius, than he was before the patch where they buffed him, specifically because he was underwhelming when compared to Darius! If you honestly think that buffing Garen equal the other high win rate champs in low elo, is somehow going to create the 2015 worlds conditions, than there's literally no reasoning with you, that's not a logical thought process. That's just actually silly. Mordes win rate was 76%, even in high elo? If Garen was just alittle bit stronger, he wouldn't be suddenly pulling off quadra kills in LCS, he would still suck in anything diamond and above, he would just suck a little less than he already does. My opinion is they should buff him to around 54% win rate in low elo which would match him to the other low elo high win rates, and let him fall where he falls in high elo. That's neither game breaking or unreasonable.
> [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T05:02:17.166+0000) > > Your explanation isn't at fault, it's your premise. Not once have I mentioned any sort of specific percentage that Garen needs to be buffed to, in high or low elo, and I already specifically said he needs to be balanced around low elo. But since you mention it yet again, no a 51% win rate in Iron, is not acceptable for one of the easiest kits in the game. The highest win rate champions in low elo are around 54-55%. If it's acceptable for them, it should definitely be acceptable for Garen. It's absurd that Garen is not allowed to be that strong in low elo when others are when he should be. And the thing is, Garen was that strong or close to it for at a time in season 8, and the reasoning was he was underwhelming compared to Darius. Then that buff got slightly reverted, It was felt but Garen was still ok. Then Darius got a large buff in the worlds patch, and since then Garen was hit with a large indirect nerf (celerity) which i understand. Celerity was being abused by some champs like Hecarim, Quinn, ect. I'd also point out that the steraks change was another indirect nerf to Garen. Another one that I understand and agree with, changing steraks made it useful for more champs and nerfed the triforce interaction. But it still indirectly nerfed Garen against the majority of his lane opponents because Garen was one of the few bruisers who's abilities scale from total ad rather than bonus. That item was just simply better on Garen than Darius, Renekton, ect. As it sits, Garen is more underwhelming right now compared to the other bruisers, especially Darius, than he was before the patch where they buffed him, specifically because he was underwhelming when compared to Darius! If you honestly think that buffing Garen equal the other high win rate champs in low elo, is somehow going to create the 2015 worlds conditions, than there's literally no reasoning with you, that's not a logical thought process. That's just actually silly. Mordes win rate was 76%, even in high elo? If Garen was just alittle bit stronger, he wouldn't be suddenly pulling off quadra kills in LCS, he would still suck in anything diamond and above, he would just suck a little less than he already does. My opinion is they should buff him to around 54% win rate in low elo which would match him to the other low elo high win rates, and let him fall where he falls in high elo. That's neither game breaking or unreasonable. Which champions are you referring to? You keep saying "other low elo champions are doing better" but providing no names. I never said it was okay for them, either. And what ARE you saying, if you're not saying Garen should be _performing_ better in Diamond? I didn't say he'd jump to Mord's old strength from a tiny change. I said Mord is an example of how that can go wrong. And in essence, your suggestion that they add a better timing mechanic to Garen's W IS a suggestion to rework part of him. All I'm saying is that that doesn't go far enough. Reworks are usually done to make an outdated character easier to fix, not just flat out stronger. And that is why Garen needs one.
Hyrnos (NA)
: There should be a way to punish people who hold a champ select hostage
That's just a bait. If they don't actually want to lose even more LP, then they won't dodge either.
Naalith (NA)
: Part of the reason I have been so adamently against prestige skins (plus limited borders, ruby chromas in exclusive bundles, etc.) is because I have been a SMITE player since season 1 and love the game, but recently the monetization is just... absurd. I really feel Riot is beginning the first steps down the dark path to being like SMITE, where I have friends who literally don't get on the game because as they put it, "their wallets feel magnetized to the screen in all the scummiest ways." The grand irony is that a lot of my friends and I all bought the Archon Thanatos skin (the very first $100 ultimate skin in the game) even though none of us play that character or ever really have since we got it. That was before we realized the hooks companies use to get people to spend more than they're comfortable with and these days almost every company uses at least one shitcan monetization model. I really don't want it to spread to League, and over the last year Riot has started doing things I hoped they wouldn't do as someone who has supported them for nearly a decade. Makes me nervous.
> [{quoted}](name=Naalith,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dgIvELuA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-03-15T01:15:21.619+0000) > > Part of the reason I have been so adamently against prestige skins (plus limited borders, ruby chromas in exclusive bundles, etc.) is because I have been a SMITE player since season 1 and love the game, but recently the monetization is just... absurd. I really feel Riot is beginning the first steps down the dark path to being like SMITE, where I have friends who literally don't get on the game because as they put it, "their wallets feel magnetized to the screen in all the scummiest ways." > > The grand irony is that a lot of my friends and I all bought the Archon Thanatos skin (the very first $100 ultimate skin in the game) even though none of us play that character or ever really have since we got it. That was before we realized the hooks companies use to get people to spend more than they're comfortable with and these days almost every company uses at least one shitcan monetization model. I really don't want it to spread to League, and over the last year Riot has started doing things I hoped they wouldn't do as someone who has supported them for nearly a decade. Makes me nervous. Yeah. I just wish going to Smite's boards about this would've caused change. but nope. They don't know a fucking thing about business, because that doesn't work in the long run. Hell, it doesn't even work in the short run.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-15T01:14:56.790+0000) > > It's not a _problem_ when a low-skill champion is only slightly above 50% at the lowest ranks and still at a very reasonable 48% at high ranks. That just means the champion is properly balanced for the elo at which they are played. Garen is _at_ where he needs to be, because giving him anything at all for high elo, with his too-simple kit, makes him way too strong at the level where his kit is good. I'm not sure if you're actually trying to be taken seriously with a comment like that. You think the champion with one of the simplest kits in the game should only have a slightly above 50% win rate in the lowest of elo? Ummm, wow?
> [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T02:09:43.674+0000) > > I'm not sure if you're actually trying to be taken seriously with a comment like that. You think the champion with one of the simplest kits in the game should only have a slightly above 50% win rate in the lowest of elo? Ummm, wow? It seems like you either aren't reading or I'm not explaining properly. The performance you can expect from mastering him is very low, to match the fact that the amount of _skill needed_ to master him completely is also extremely low. _No_ champion should see 55-60% win rate at any level of play. That is not just my opinion, but what we've seen from Riot's balancing decisions (Ryze's performance in pros is a good example). And for Garen, trying to bump him up 2% in Diamond with just straight up buffs would result in a 10% bump in iron to gold. So it's better to leave him _balanced_ at the level of play his kit is suited for-- 51% in Iron - Silver-- and only slightly underperforming in Diamond. If I'm not being clear enough, just look at what Mordekaiser did to worlds in 2015. THAT is what you get when you try to make a kit that isn't suited for fighting coordinated teams strong enough to do so. You just end up with stats too big to beat regardless of skill.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-14T18:57:00.763+0000) > > What he needs is a full rework. In fact he, Darius, Mordekaiser, and Nasus need reworks to push them _away_ from being solely stat checks into requiring at least some semblance of skill expression in a fight. > > Garen is currently performing as usual for a champion who's countered by team coordination in high elos where such coordination is the norm. To give him more flat stat buffs, like your suggested MS boost, would just exacerbate the problems he has in lower rank solo queue. It would do no help to him in high ranks because losing to team coordination isn't about his stats. It's about his lack of versatile mechanics in exchange for just high numbers. > > As we saw with Mordekaiser back in 2015, the only way to make such a kit, one that relies entirely on stat-checking, viable against a coordinated team is to make the stats so unreasonably high that you can just body any attempt at counterplay against you-- the exact same way these champions win against any non-counters in a dueling matchup. > > The change you've suggested to his W is kind of already there. A well-timed W gives you a small window of a lot more defense than the rest of the duration. > > And where you said: > > That's generally _not_ how it works. Win rates dip down at the extremes, for two different reasons. A champion that has a very high skill floor will dip down in win rate if their play rate is high, because people who lack experience will drag it down. But they'll have incredibly high win rates from mains because they have a high skill ceiling. That is, once you have the necessary experience with them, you'll get a lot out of them. > > Conversely, a champion that has essentially no skill floor at all, like Garen, will dip down because they have a very low skill ceiling. No amount of practice with Garen will get you as high a win rate with him as a high skill floor champ like Katarina. Because there just isn't anything in his kit to _express_ that experience. Because he relies just on stat-checks instead of skill-checks, increasing your skill with him does nothing-- you still can't increase the stats, and you _can't spin better_ than a brand-new Garen. > > The best way to increase his performance for people who have more experience with him would have to be a complete rework, to give him abilities that can actually express experience with him. But as he is, he _should_ be performing poorly at high ranks, because that's where his stat-checking isn't enough. He's not just performing poorly at high ranks though. Garen's low elo win rate is currently 2-3% lower than other low skill floor stat check top laners like Nasus for example, and 40th overall. Iron players don't win with macro or champion skill expression, they win by stat checks. Since Garen relies on stats alone in low elo, the fact that he's not winning more indicates a problem. I recognize that Garen's kit has to be balanced around low elo. And don't misunderstand, I'm not complaining about him being a stat check, the fact that he's currently losing stat checks he shouldn't that is my complaint. If a champion fighting Garen fails their skill check 'missing an ability or using it at the wrong time putting it on cd' Garen should be able to favorably trade with them. And there are plenty of instances were that's not the case. I'm not saying Garen needs a lot to be where he needs to be, but he does need something.
> [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-03-14T22:22:25.885+0000) > > He's not just performing poorly at high ranks though. Garen's low elo win rate is currently 2-3% lower than other low skill floor stat check top laners like Nasus for example, and 40th overall. Iron players don't win with macro or champion skill expression, they win by stat checks. Since Garen relies on stats alone in low elo, the fact that he's not winning more indicates a problem. I recognize that Garen's kit has to be balanced around low elo. And don't misunderstand, I'm not complaining about him being a stat check, the fact that he's currently losing stat checks he shouldn't that is my complaint. If a champion fighting Garen fails their skill check 'missing an ability or using it at the wrong time putting it on cd' Garen should be able to favorably trade with them. And there are plenty of instances were that's not the case. I'm not saying Garen needs a lot to be where he needs to be, but he does need something. It's not a _problem_ when a low-skill champion is only slightly above 50% at the lowest ranks and still at a very reasonable 48% at high ranks. That just means the champion is properly balanced for the elo at which they are played. Garen is _at_ where he needs to be, because giving him anything at all for high elo, with his too-simple kit, makes him way too strong at the level where his kit is good.
Rioter Comments
Alzon (NA)
: Juggernauts are not stat checks, since they are the least reliable class for applying those stats that they’ve checked. A true stat check is a marksman, Jax, Yi, etc. who has very little problem with applying their damage. Simply because of this fact, juggernauts are actually much higher skill floor than you’d think, at least when their opponent has more than an ounce of knowledge on how the various League mechanics work. They have to make due with the tiny window of things they can do, which typically includes splitpushing at or near the top of the list and only includes teamfighting if allies are capable of easily broadening that window by a significant margin via lockdown, speedboosts, shields, engage, etc.
> [{quoted}](name=Alzon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-14T19:07:40.476+0000) > > Juggernauts are not stat checks, since they are the least reliable class for applying those stats that they’ve checked. A true stat check is a marksman, Jax, Yi, etc. who has very little problem with applying their damage. > > Simply because of this fact, juggernauts are actually much higher skill floor than you’d think, at least when their opponent has more than an ounce of knowledge on how the various League mechanics work. They have to make due with the tiny window of things they can do, which typically includes splitpushing at or near the top of the list and only includes teamfighting if allies are capable of easily broadening that window by a significant margin via lockdown, speedboosts, shields, engage, etc. That's... not how it works. Being least able to apply the stats is exactly what makes them most dependent on being stat checks. They must be able to win in whatever window they're given, or they can't play. So there is no room to give them user error. The champions themselves have no skill floor. But it sounds like what you're saying that the player must overcome the champion being terrible to perform well-- often, as you stated, by relying on allies to give them opportunities to fight or simply relying on the fact no one can stand up to them in a 1v1 if they try to splitpush. It sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're confusing the two things. Skill floors/ceilings refer to the champion's mechanical difficulty. And what you're saying is that to overcome their low ceiling requires greater knowledge and application of the things that aren't determined by your champion. But with that in mind, a more difficult champion should _always_ win in the scenario where that knowledge is generally equal among opponents. For a similar example, pre-rework Taric was difficult to win with, yes. But that didn't make Taric mains good players. And it wasn't because he was mechanically difficult. The same goes with using a class that is specifically catered to abusing low rank solo queue in a high rank. You'll have a difficult time because the champion isn't suited for the modern game, not because the champion is more difficult.
: Riot balance team. I implore you, please read this and consider.
What he needs is a full rework. In fact he, Darius, Mordekaiser, and Nasus need reworks to push them _away_ from being solely stat checks into requiring at least some semblance of skill expression in a fight. Garen is currently performing as usual for a champion who's countered by team coordination in high elos where such coordination is the norm. To give him more flat stat buffs, like your suggested MS boost, would just exacerbate the problems he has in lower rank solo queue. It would do no help to him in high ranks because losing to team coordination isn't about his stats. It's about his lack of versatile mechanics in exchange for just high numbers. As we saw with Mordekaiser back in 2015, the only way to make such a kit, one that relies entirely on stat-checking, viable against a coordinated team is to make the stats so unreasonably high that you can just body any attempt at counterplay against you-- the exact same way these champions win against any non-counters in a dueling matchup. The change you've suggested to his W is kind of already there. A well-timed W gives you a small window of a lot more defense than the rest of the duration. And where you said: >For a champion whose kit is so simple, it seems like he should be slightly higher than [his win rate] currently is. That's generally _not_ how it works. Win rates dip down at the extremes, for two different reasons. A champion that has a very high skill floor will dip down in win rate if their play rate is high, because people who lack experience will drag it down. But they'll have incredibly high win rates from mains because they have a high skill ceiling. That is, once you have the necessary experience with them, you'll get a lot out of them. Conversely, a champion that has essentially no skill floor at all, like Garen, will dip down because they have a very low skill ceiling. No amount of practice with Garen will get you as high a win rate with him as a high skill floor champ like Katarina. Because there just isn't anything in his kit to _express_ that experience. Because he relies just on stat-checks instead of skill-checks, increasing your skill with him does nothing-- you still can't increase the stats, and you _can't spin better_ than a brand-new Garen. The best way to increase his performance for people who have more experience with him would have to be a complete rework, to give him abilities that can actually express experience with him. But as he is, he _should_ be performing poorly at high ranks, because that's where his stat-checking isn't enough.
: Sexy Monster Skins
Rek'sai is naked all the time, and already has a pool party skin where she's only wearing a safety vest. Pretty sexy. Yorick would need to be like a dad in shorts and a hawaiian shirt, hitting people with a greasy spatula, with his pets being his wife and kids. Cho'gath isn't a girl. We've already seen Mordekaiser's righteous abs. Fiddle could just have an intense sucking sound on his W.
Rivyulet (NA)
: Scripters hacked onto my account and scripted on it resulting in me getting banned...
If it truly was in error, and you have enough knowledge of the purchase history to prove the account is actually yours, then you should be fine.
Destaice (NA)
: No one:
There's a board for memes.
: unless you are seeing something i am not there is no rule about being required to win. if you do end up seeing it pin point it. otherwise this discussion is over and your words hold no weight.
> [{quoted}](name=Inkling Commando,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UEe7ReyV,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-14T07:02:43.754+0000) > > unless you are seeing something i am not there is no rule about being required to win. if you do end up seeing it pin point it. otherwise this discussion is over and your words hold no weight. 1. Support your team. Not sure what kind of kick you get out of being like this, but you do you boo.
: so you can't prove it is against the rules to play without intent on winning. good to know.
> [{quoted}](name=Inkling Commando,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UEe7ReyV,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-14T04:18:55.140+0000) > > so you can't prove it is against the rules to play without intent on winning. good to know. My bad, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you've actually read the rules. https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/get-started/summoners-code/
: can you prove that?
> [{quoted}](name=Inkling Commando,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UEe7ReyV,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-14T04:15:37.839+0000) > > can you prove that? Prove what, that the other reasons are secondary? There's no proving others' opinions about it without a poll, but in terms of importance that reason is number 1 if you want to keep your account.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=mm2MfEwJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-14T01:06:05.985+0000) > > Provide your working definition of "problematic" and we can have a discussion. a champ that is not good for the game
> [{quoted}](name=Tham Chundi,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=mm2MfEwJ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-14T01:24:50.403+0000) > > a champ that is not good for the game "Not good" us just as vague as "problematic". Do you mean difficult to balance, unfair to play against, in need of a rework, or something else entirely?
: why do you want to win? (poll)
Because it's against the rules to play without the intention of winning. All other reasons are secondary. Case closed.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=R8czvk6H,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-14T01:02:07.392+0000) > > I said no legitimate argument. The fact the loot system exists in its current state is enough to prove you wrong. Of which you were saying they could counteract the cut in OE by giving people OE. They specifically cut OE gains because it ate into their profit. Ergo, they won't just flat out give OE back to people when they reduced it to begin with.
> [{quoted}](name=Oleandervine,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=R8czvk6H,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-14T02:16:14.598+0000) > > Of which you were saying they could counteract the cut in OE by giving people OE. They specifically cut OE gains because it ate into their profit. Ergo, they won't just flat out give OE back to people when they reduced it to begin with. Not counteract. Partially offset. 500 is still not enough to get anything, but even then it's only the same amount you get as you do from a Masterwork chest when it gives you an icon. And you're ignoring the entire point by acting like they'd be giving back to everyone. It'd only be to a very small portion of the playerbase, with any downsides being outweighed by champion RP sales.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=wMmNukzA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-14T00:58:28.746+0000) > > You're missing an incredibly important interaction. > > Transcendence considers you to be at the cap from the very start of the game, so any and all CDR you buy is converted into AP/AD. > > So you'd actually get 130 from the first Luden's, beating Spellbinder. And that's not even including the damage from _Echo_. > {{item:3285}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3907}} {{item:3907}} {{item:3907}} {{item:3907}} > > Likewise for AD assassins, screw maxing lethality and buying dominik's since no one is building tank, and go for a ton of HP with the 64 damage cleaver. > {{item:3147}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3071}} > > Also remember to get blue buff whenever you can, as it'll give you 20 AP or 12 AD. Thought transcendence was disabled in URF tho Also, 64 AD is neither the most you can get from a single item, nor does it have lethality. Therefore, unacceptable as anything but a last item
> [{quoted}](name=6 Years Unranked,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=wMmNukzA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-14T03:09:54.714+0000) > > Thought transcendence was disabled in URF tho > > Also, 64 AD is neither the most you can get from a single item, nor does it have lethality. Therefore, unacceptable as anything but a last item It's not disabled. (Cosmic insight is though) 64 is more than any lethality item, and it gives you armor pen anyway. But more importantly, that gives you 2000 HP.
Rioter Comments
: What do you think are the 5 MOST problematic champions
Provide your working definition of "problematic" and we can have a discussion.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=R8czvk6H,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T19:50:11.186+0000) > > No, it's not a red herring. Because you've made no legitimate argument. You're solely disagreeing with the suggestion because of personal feelings,. "They won't give away currency because it damages their profits" is not a personal feeling. It's economics.
> [{quoted}](name=Oleandervine,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=R8czvk6H,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-14T00:39:41.249+0000) > > "They won't give away currency because it damages their profits" is not a personal feeling. It's economics. I said no legitimate argument. The fact the loot system exists in its current state is enough to prove you wrong.
: The only acceptable builds in URF (when applicable)
You're missing an incredibly important interaction. Transcendence considers you to be at the cap from the very start of the game, so any and all CDR you buy is converted into AP/AD. So you'd actually get 130 from the first Luden's, beating Spellbinder. And that's not even including the damage from _Echo_. {{item:3285}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3907}} {{item:3907}} {{item:3907}} {{item:3907}} Likewise for AD assassins, screw maxing lethality and buying dominik's since no one is building tank, and go for a ton of HP with the 64 damage cleaver. {{item:3147}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3071}} Also remember to get blue buff whenever you can, as it'll give you 20 AP or 12 AD.
: you mean how jax Q is physical but you build ap you 'tada' its magic? or his W could be physical?
> [{quoted}](name=Corrector1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tbckg0qe,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-03-13T19:51:36.016+0000) > > you mean how jax Q is physical but you build ap you 'tada' its magic? or his W could be physical? Ah, I'll make a new post to explain exactly what I mean.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=R8czvk6H,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-12T22:08:39.183+0000) > > Well, no. Elitest would be if I said, "you can't afford every champion like some of us, honhonhon." But it took six years of grinding. You're just blowing off all that work because you think it's unfair that you haven't put in the work. > > You're completely ignoring the fact OE was reduced to a third its original value about a year ago. That's why in my original post I said it would _somewhat_ offset the reduction. Whether or not I have all champions (which it not beyond my capabilities, I've chosen to simply buy other things instead) is a red herring, and irrelevant to the point at hand. And OE was reduced in value BECAUSE Riot had determined it was too generous, and interfering with their profits. You are talking about a business here that doesn't charge for it's services. It only charges for aesthetics, which OE circumvents. So thus, any changes to the OE gains will directly affect their bottom lines, which is why it was reduced and why they wouldn't just openly hand it over to people who have all the champions. Which, by the way, is their keeper audience. If you've gone through the efforts to collect all of the champions, chances are, you're pretty invested in this game. If you're pretty invested in this game, this means you're more inclined to spend money on this game, more so than someone starting out the game or someone who's playing super casually. So YOU as someone who own all of the champions are the demographic that is _most likely_ to spend money in the game, which is THE #1 REASON why they wouldn't just dump OE in your lap to take away any profit they would make from you spending money in this game. You are not considering anything you've posted from a business perspective.
> [{quoted}](name=Oleandervine,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=R8czvk6H,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T19:12:32.021+0000) > > Whether or not I have all champions (which it not beyond my capabilities, I've chosen to simply buy other things instead) is a red herring, and irrelevant to the point at hand. > > And OE was reduced in value BECAUSE Riot had determined it was too generous, and interfering with their profits. You are talking about a business here that doesn't charge for it's services. It only charges for aesthetics, which OE circumvents. So thus, any changes to the OE gains will directly affect their bottom lines, which is why it was reduced and why they wouldn't just openly hand it over to people who have all the champions. > > Which, by the way, is their keeper audience. If you've gone through the efforts to collect all of the champions, chances are, you're pretty invested in this game. If you're pretty invested in this game, this means you're more inclined to spend money on this game, more so than someone starting out the game or someone who's playing super casually. So YOU as someone who own all of the champions are the demographic that is _most likely_ to spend money in the game, which is THE #1 REASON why they wouldn't just dump OE in your lap to take away any profit they would make from you spending money in this game. You are not considering anything you've posted from a business perspective. No, it's not a red herring. Because you've made no legitimate argument. You're solely disagreeing with the suggestion because of personal feelings,.
Gorrazin (NA)
: Some pro players have been saying that Camille sucks on Twitter mate. It's actually true that Camille isn't in a great spot. She basically gets destroyed against most top laners. She maybe has a couple good match ups but the rest just gib her. Like seriously Camille can't win her own lane most of the time. If she does it's because jungle won the lane for her. Here's a decent idea for a buff. Let's buff the time she keeps her passive shield From 2 to 3 seconds considering that almost over a fourth of that time is spent with the enemy stunned anyway. It doesn't give her any jungle power, it keeps her as is damage wise, but now she has an easier time actually trading with the lane opponent.{{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
> [{quoted}](name=Gorrazin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3MTBhMoN,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T09:42:53.482+0000) > > Some pro players have been saying that Camille sucks on Twitter mate. It's actually true that Camille isn't in a great spot. She basically gets destroyed against most top laners. She maybe has a couple good match ups but the rest just gib her. Like seriously Camille can't win her own lane most of the time. If she does it's because jungle won the lane for her. Here's a decent idea for a buff. Let's buff the time she keeps her passive shield From 2 to 3 seconds considering that almost over a fourth of that time is spent with the enemy stunned anyway. It doesn't give her any jungle power, it keeps her as is damage wise, but now she has an easier time actually trading with the lane opponent.{{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}} Again, please provide the links. There's nothing stopping you. And that's what happens when a champion switches roles. They start to perform worse in their original role. Same thing happened with Brand, Zyra, and Morgana. It's not weird, it's just how things go. She isn't supposed to have such an easy time trading, because she has a 1200 dash that stuns and grants AS.
: > [{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tbckg0qe,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-13T14:04:17.470+0000) > > Vayne doesn't have any AP scalings though. i thought he meant convert your scalings altogether. so that your damage turns magic or physical depending on your adaptive stats.
> [{quoted}](name=Corrector1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tbckg0qe,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T14:37:24.049+0000) > > i thought he meant convert your scalings altogether. so that your damage turns magic or physical depending on your adaptive stats. No, I only meant champions who currently have a hybrid scaling would deal one or the other based on whichever they have more of.
: but wouldn't this just get rid of hybrids alltogether? would kinda ruin the fun
> [{quoted}](name=hhaavviikk,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tbckg0qe,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-03-13T15:08:16.244+0000) > > but wouldn't this just get rid of hybrids alltogether? would kinda ruin the fun It'd add a new style to their play. Instead of just being able to stat-check tanks all the time because it's impossible to build duo defense as effectively as one, they'll instead be able to build towards the damage their team doesn't have-- making them more effective if they do it right, but making them pay if they just blindly build the same damage the tank is already defending against.
Antenora (EUW)
: Hybrid champions can still be built against though... You just need Armor and MR.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tbckg0qe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-13T11:47:43.752+0000) > > Hybrid champions can still be built against though... > > You just need Armor and MR. That's exactly why they can't be, because you can't buy both as effectively as one.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tbckg0qe,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-13T03:29:24.482+0000) > > and can be built against. Defense items would have to not feel like garbage for this to work. Noone is going to build defense when offence just lets you win trades, and defense just makes you lose slower.
> [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tbckg0qe,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-13T14:06:13.402+0000) > > Defense items would have to not feel like garbage for this to work. Noone is going to build defense when offence just lets you win trades, and defense just makes you lose slower. This would help defensive items not feel like garbage. The reason they do is _because_ their defense against hybrid/true damage was reduced back in 7.9 and only a couple items got slightly reverted.
ZaFishbone (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=R8czvk6H,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-03-12T20:10:22.943+0000) > > It's not money. I've been playing the game for eight years. I'd be willing to bet you don't even know what IP is. > > Did you even think about that response for a second? If I had enough money to buy the whole champ pool quickly, I'd have enough to just buy any skin. Influence points. Any more smart-ass boasts you've got up your sleeve? I've been playing the game for quite some time well, and I know that you need **a lot less** money to buy the whole champ pool, specially using bundles, than you need to buy every skin, considering that almost every champ has enough skins that the RP cost for all of them is several times the RP cost for the champ itself.
> [{quoted}](name=ZaFishbone,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=R8czvk6H,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2019-03-13T09:16:23.434+0000) > > Influence points. Any more smart-ass boasts you've got up your sleeve? I've been playing the game for quite some time well, and I know that you need **a lot less** money to buy the whole champ pool, specially using bundles, than you need to buy every skin, considering that almost every champ has enough skins that the RP cost for all of them is several times the RP cost for the champ itself. Congrats, you've proven nothing except the fact googline "League of Legends IP" gets you the answer. And then the rest of your comment means nothing at all.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=X741aXNx,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T09:10:03.398+0000) > > No, you can't. The fountain still deals its damage to you because it ignores all invincibility effects. Well, to be fair, not *all* invincibility effect, but a lot of them, yes.
> [{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=X741aXNx,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T09:11:20.730+0000) > > Well, to be fair, not *all* invincibility effect, but a lot of them, yes. Yes, all of them. And even aside from that, the point is it ignores Kayle's ultimate.
: nah I mean if your invincible from a kayle ult you can fountain dive right then and get a pentakill as a champ like katarina or something.
> [{quoted}](name=Lord Apex,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=X741aXNx,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T04:22:45.300+0000) > > nah I mean if your invincible from a kayle ult you can fountain dive right then and get a pentakill as a champ like katarina or something. No, you can't. The fountain still deals its damage to you because it ignores all invincibility effects.
Twin Blades (EUNE)
: Listen buddy its not like im the only one having a hard time. Its also the opinion of pros and solo q stars like tf blade in your region. I have reached challenger with her when she was in a weaker state however there are champions who spikes harder with less items and that makes her pretty much fcking useless. Why would u ever pick camille when something like a yorick or a jax can just spike with 1 item while u have to w8 for at least 3 and still not be able to side lane against them.
> [{quoted}](name=Twin Blades,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3MTBhMoN,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-13T08:46:30.708+0000) > > Listen buddy its not like im the only one having a hard time. Its also the opinion of pros and solo q stars like tf blade in your region. I have reached challenger with her when she was in a weaker state however there are champions who spikes harder with less items and that makes her pretty much fcking useless. Why would u ever pick camille when something like a yorick or a jax can just spike with 1 item while u have to w8 for at least 3 and still not be able to side lane against them. First of all, if you're going to act like pros are complaining about her, then you need to provide some proof. Hearsay means nothing. And again, the facts don't support your argument. She is not struggling overall. She may not be getting picked as much, but that's because she isn't broken any more, not because she's weak.
: When the whole enemy team is low and in fountain, and your kayle ults you.
It's fun coming to your meme spams and explaining why your jokes don't work. Honest. It's a good time. This one doesn't work because the well deals _PURE_ damage. The difference between True damage and Pure damage is that Pure damage ignores all invulnerable and revival effects.
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The Ecdysiast

Level 177 (NA)
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