: Yeah but you have to find a Switch first
> [{quoted}](name=TouchFluffyTaiI,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=274N0bfA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-09-17T18:08:25.930+0000) > > Yeah but you have to find a Switch first Implying you don't have to find the iPhone X first as well? I say you're more likely to find the switch at this point lol
iLBGAMing (EUW)
: Champions that ACTUALLY need a rework
I agree with Mundo and Skarner needing reworks, but hot damn the reasoning you gave doesn't make a lick of sense for either. Skarner's issues have nothing to do with his mixed damage, and his mixed damage is fine, especially considering his lore as a magic sound scorpion. Having more than 2 kinds of scaling says absolutely nothing about the quality of the kit or efficacy of the ability. Mundo needs tweaks to his abilities such that he is a bit more interactive, and could use a larger amount of skill expression, true, but ultimately Mundo will always be the health regen tank, because that is his niche, and that should and will remain regardless of whether or not he gets reworked.
: You're doing Nasus all wrong, Riot.
Nasus has always been a mid-game champion. People just saw the big numbers and said he was a late-game champion. Yes, Nasus scales infinitely, however his ability to USE the stacks he has accrued has *always* been mid-game, as that is the time where he could oppress enemy top laner in side lanes and get towers. Nasus is not made to teamfight, and late-game, he is forced to teamfight, therefore his winrate decreases in that portion of the game. Yes, after a certain point Nasus becomes ridiculous because of his infinite scaling, but his winrate has always peaked at 20-35~ min, not 35-50.
: Message to the rammus rework team
Okay, so I've played Rammus for a while, though my mastery doesn't really show it. Question, have you considered CDR and turning off the W, to then Q, go around the fight, then W again once in place? I've been having significantly more fun and success on Rammus post-rework. At 30% CDR, you can keep the E attack speed up basically forever just by alternating Q and W. Also, Q max is way better now, try that. Q to get around the map to increase pressure. Just putting it out there.
Moooose2 (NA)
: If you step on a trap as thresh, most caits even in master are trashcans and channel an auto. Easiest hooks to land ever. They don't look at ranges or your playermodel starting a hook animation. They just like to chunk your healthbar.
Thresh Hooks are 1100 range, headshot is 1300. Just fyi
: Why, pray tell, do you believe that Caitlyn, League's original sniper, should have less single target damage? Snipers are pretty well known in every game/IRL to be most effective against single targets, often instantly killing them with well placed bullets. It stands to reason that Caitlyn should actually *excel* at single target damage output instead of being bad at it. Her multi-target damage should be where she falls flat, and I would think that it would make more sense for her thematically to weaken her siege potential and strengthen her single target DPS.
The issue is that her single target damage is being augmented too heavily by her ability to charge headshot much too fast, due to Runaan's AoE. She needs less because 1-2k damage autos should not come out every 3 autos. On that note, if you are using Caitlyn's fantasy as justification, we know that she does a pretty bad job of fulfilling it. League's resident Sniper is Jhin as it stands, Cait's just got an automatic rifle with a good scope. She needs a rework before she can be balanced around that fantasy.
: Please, explain it to me.....
At 200 bonus AD, this would give yasuo back 40, non stackable damage. It was put there not to affect his late game, and yasuo doesn't rush AD. This is as significant an E nerf as feasible on Yasuo. And I say this as someone who hates the champion.
Zen Ineth (EUW)
: Hey Riot, Rengar gives people a notification when he ults
Just a point, if you are being bloodhunted, there is a giant red skull over your champion. That doesn't give you any indication of WW's position though, since its global. So you will know if you are being hunted, just regardless of distance.
: You're pretty right about Guinsoo's after some thought. But I'm thinking, that you haven't thought about Black Cleaver enough. Black Cleaver gives AD, Health, CDR, Phage Passive, and an Armor **Shred**. (I'll talk about why that word is important later) The benefit of CDR is obvious, more abilities. Surrender@20 tells me WW Q is 6 seconds at all ranks and his E is on a 15/14/13/12/11 Second CD. So with 20% CD from Trinity or BC Q is on a 4.8 sec CD and E is on a 13/12.2/10.4/9.6/8.8 second CD With 40% CD those go to Q on 3.6 seconds and E on 9/8.4/7.8/7.2/6.6 second CD A Dash on a 4 second CD that deals 10% max health and a Damage Reduction with 50% uptime seems pretty OP to me. AD is also obvious, slightly more damage. nuff said... Health is good, makes Warwick slightly tankier and increases his windows for his bonus to healing, plus it has synergies with one of the agreed upon Core Items for Warwick {{item:3748}} Phage Passive is EXTREMELY UNDERRATED for how strong it is. You can proc the Move Speed with a Q Auto, and from then on your going to try and be sticking in Auto range anyway, getting as many Autos as possible to keep your damage up and proc the "Target below 50%" Attack Speed Buff, Phage passive makes that so much easier even against slippery carries. And wait, what was that, an Attack Speed steroid? What do those have synergies with? AD and On-Hit effects! Speaking of On-Hit effects lets talk about Black Cleaver's last effect. When you hit someone it reduces their Armor by 5% up to a 30% reduction. "But Alpha!" I hear you shouting "That's not actually an On-Hit Effect, it only applies when you deal physical damage and Q and Ult don't!" But guess what does deal physical damage and procs off Q and Ult {{item:3077}} {{item:3074}} and {{item:3748}} Zing! And Black Cleaver's Unique being a **Shred** means instead of just YOU dealing more damage EVERYONE that deals Physical Damage will deal more to the Cleaved target. PS Apologies for massive post :P
I know about the BC stacks from titanic, and I understand the usefulness of armorshred. The problem is that Warwick himself cannot make use of the armor shred in any large capacity. While some of his items will make use of it, his kit is basically unaffected by it. While it might suffice on some supporty aura-type build to help your ADC to kill a malphite, you should still avoid BC if it means you can't do your job. WW is a diver, which means his optimal play pattern will involve diving into the enemy team onto their backline to try and neutralize threats. If you ARE jumping on the backline, then cleaver's armor shred will be shredding negligible amounts of armor, since most carries aren't building armor. The small amount you are shredding means that its even worse on WW who can't use it that well to begin with. Phage is EXTREMELY useful, I agree, which is why I recommended Trinity instead, which has better synergy on his Q, and front loads damage onto the ult, like titanic, so even if it gets cancelled, you still do the majority of your damage in your initial leap, which lets you get them to 50% HP faster than BC would. Plus the attackspeed from trinity synergizes with titanic and your passive too. No need to apologize for the massive post, I like discussions like this, and I appreciate the good conversation.
: > [{quoted}](name=Knight Kore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjneIFjw,comment-id=001100000000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-12T01:28:10.621+0000) > > The issue is that Illaoi can't actually 1v1 people without her E ghost next to her. Her damage is too telegraphed and unreliable for her to be able to do anything consistently without her E ghost. She should do pretty good against the huge modeled, immobile tanks who can't dodge it. Against smaller and more mobile targets though, that is a reasonable concern.
Even Nautilus can walk perpendicular to an illaoi Q and dodge it effortlessly.
: Always worked for me before, and I get EVEN MORE sticking power plus proccing on-hits with my Q in exchange for losing 2 on-hit procs on my ulti. Plus most of Warwick's sustained damage is from his Autos anyway
Why build Cleaver when trinity offers you the same thing, but with more stats that WW actually wants and uses? ArPen is basically worthless on him. It'd be like building Black Cleaver on Jax. Guinsoo's loses 1600g off of its total potential gold value from the lost AP. This means you'd be paying 3600g for a 2300g item at no stacks, and then at max stacks you'd be getting 4000g out an item that should be giving you 5600g. This means the not-always-active Phantom Hit would need to be worth the MASSIVELY overpriced item slot, which effectively forces you into building a ton of on-hits on a champion that will die very very fast without tank stats somewhere early in his build.
: > [{quoted}](name=Knight Kore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjneIFjw,comment-id=0011000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-11T23:22:12.991+0000) > > I realize this is a super late response, but I do still want to respond, because I like the discussion, and the way you debate. > > Totally not denying that being hit by E feels like crap. > > Being hit by E is like being hit by a blitz hook, if blitz had a champion near him at the time. You are effectively choosing to run from a 2v1, which you would still get punished for, except there is no chance of you dying if you fully commit to running away under most circumstances. The end result is the same, its just that Illaoi's E is more geared towards poke rather than skirmish power, like a true hook ability. > > I can understand wanting disengaging to feel less terrible, but you can't just make running away from her be the correct answer for 2 reasons: > 1) Less important, thematically that would completely cripple her. The entire point of E is that she is trying to get her opponents to beat her. To fight. Motion and all that. Its like a taunt basically. > 2) She is so utterly immobile, that making running away from her a clean choice, that it would effectively make her useless at every stage of the game. Her E is her main laning tool, and her main sieging tool. > > I'm not saying there is no other way to do her E, but it'd have to be pretty significantly different than its current iteration to be able to still capture theses things. Maybe putting an actual taunt on it when you escape instead of the debuff might do something, but that may end up feeling worse than currently honestly. As it is, fighting her once she's hit her E is just not fun and pretty damn hard for most champions, and 9/10 of all tanks would rather just run away. I don't think hitting the Spirit should heal her, so you don't feel obliged to break the link so she doesn't as many heals and damage. How about she can only hit you or the Spirit (with Tentacles)? It would make it so that if you fight her, it's just a normal fight, but if you don't, she gets free damage and heals and stuff. That way it actually makes you want to fight her, instead of 'you can fight me and be destroyed because of this extra damage and healing I get, or you can run and break the chain and suffer a big debuff which means none of us gets to do anything. And remove the debuff, of course, but make the spirit unbreakable so getting grabbed in a teamfight still sucks. I think Illaoi has enough damage that if someone is forced to fight her, she'll still win the fight, but if she can't against other tanks/juggernauts, might have to give her a little more damage until it works.
The issue is that Illaoi can't actually 1v1 people without her E ghost next to her. Her damage is too telegraphed and unreliable for her to be able to do anything consistently without her E ghost.
: I'm pretty sure my previous WW build will still be dope in the jungle... {{item:1416}} ({{item:3124}} or {{item:3071}}){{item:3748}} {{item:3158}} {{item:3512}} then ({{item:3124}}, {{item:3071}}, or{{item:3065}}) But I'm thinking {{item:3078}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3748}} are gonna be Core for Topwick on a side note RIP muh PBE
None of WW's abilities are physical, and none of his abilities have AP ratios, so Cleaver and Guinsoo's are written off at that point.
: well his kit does magic damage, but his Q scales on AD ratios and the majority of his damage is still autos. I was thinking maaaaybe Youmuu's because of the out of combat movement speed and the increased damage against squishies. As for Death's dance just the High AD and defensive steroid it gives. But hey judging from what others have posted here Im probably just gonna go Trinity and Titanic and maybe steraks/Botrk anyway so w/e.
A lot of Youmuu's power budget is in it's Lethality, which WW can't make any use of without extra items. If you are looking for Defensive + High AD, Maw is a better bet in most games, because you aren't wasting stats and it gives spellvamp WW can actually use, AND more AD when it procs. Out of combat movespeed should generally be Mobi's and Deadman's. Runes and Masteries as well. The MS cap makes it so you only need so much of the stat before you are just pumping money for small increases.
: > [{quoted}](name=Knight Kore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjneIFjw,comment-id=00110000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-21T16:34:27.181+0000) > > How can illaoi hold the hook until its guaranteed? If the hook is guaranteed, then the enemy elected to get in her face, while her E was still up, in which case, they are playing against the champion incorrectly are are going to be punished. In lane, you just treat Illaoi like blitzcrank, and dance around her instead of ever going for a face-first hard engage, similar as to how you deal with a fed darius. > > The ability itself isn't technically a hook ability, but the dynamics of it are more or less the same. > > I mean, you said it best, Illaoi has the most range out of the juggernauts, however cheeky is also correct in that she is the least mobile juggernaut, and these two things counterbalance one another. They made her with anti-synergy to mobility, because the more you chase, and move away from where you were before, the weaker you get because you lose your tentacles. In other words, it's impossible to trade with her (in lane) because she gets a guaranteed E hit, assuming you aren't something like a Darius who would just stand behind minions and Q clip her. Even if you dissengage after she hits you with it, even as an extremely mobile champion, it still feels like utter shit even if you manage to break the E without taking too much damage, and makes you unable to fight for around 10 more seconds, by which you have about 6-10 seconds (not sure of her E CD) to take advantage of her E being down. Basically, I want dissengaging and breaking her E to feel less terrible, since you played it correctly. The dynamics aren't the same at all - you are punished for being hit by a hook ability because you are displaced to somewhere you don't want to be, and stunned at the same time. Illaoi's E greatly increases her dueling if she fights you while it's up, otherwise she gets a bit of damage and healing.
I realize this is a super late response, but I do still want to respond, because I like the discussion, and the way you debate. Totally not denying that being hit by E feels like crap. Being hit by E is like being hit by a blitz hook, if blitz had a champion near him at the time. You are effectively choosing to run from a 2v1, which you would still get punished for, except there is no chance of you dying if you fully commit to running away under most circumstances. The end result is the same, its just that Illaoi's E is more geared towards poke rather than skirmish power, like a true hook ability. I can understand wanting disengaging to feel less terrible, but you can't just make running away from her be the correct answer for 2 reasons: 1) Less important, thematically that would completely cripple her. The entire point of E is that she is trying to get her opponents to beat her. To fight. Motion and all that. Its like a taunt basically. 2) She is so utterly immobile, that making running away from her a clean choice, that it would effectively make her useless at every stage of the game. Her E is her main laning tool, and her main sieging tool. I'm not saying there is no other way to do her E, but it'd have to be pretty significantly different than its current iteration to be able to still capture theses things. Maybe putting an actual taunt on it when you escape instead of the debuff might do something, but that may end up feeling worse than currently honestly.
: What did you build on him?? Is his kit mana hungry right now? {{item:1419}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3022}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3742}} {{item:3110}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3156}} {{item:3748}} all seem too good on him I cant imagine whats best for him atm.
His entire kit is magic damage, so Youmuu's, Cleaver, and Death's Dance are wasted on him. The other items are pretty swell though.
: You know, there was a part of me envisioning {{item:3142}} in his kit, with the main issue being that he needed tank items, because Dat Active move speed synergizes so well with his ult, but Righetous Glory fits so well with him overall. I can definitely see some **weirdness** in terms of "okay, run at this enemy tower 90 degrees away from your target for 1/4th a second to get the Glory Speed Buff, then click R **without** turning to face your target.", but that might not be the worst thing.
All of his kit does magic damage, so the lethality is more or less wasted.
: > [{quoted}](name=Knight Kore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjneIFjw,comment-id=001100000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-12-21T14:17:08.577+0000) > > If Illaoi can't land an E, her damage is MASSIVELY reduced. It is the bread and butter of her kit. Even in a 5 man ult, if you miss your E, at 600 damage Qs, you've just lost out on 600-3000 damage across their team, plus another 500-1000 to the person you E'd. The second Illaoi misses her E in lane or in skirmish you can dick her. > > The thing about blitz hook is if he hits you, he takes you to where he hooked. If Illaoi hooks you, she CANNOT kill you from that hook unless she hits YOU after she's hit her E. Getting hit by an Illaoi E is more annoying, and but it is, usually, not a death sentence. Except she can hold it until it's guaranteed. Illaoi's E is less of a hook, but more of a damage amplifier which still works even if she can't hit her actual target, as well as a heavy slow once she kills the spirit (assuming she has enough tentacles nearby to kill it)
How can illaoi hold the hook until its guaranteed? If the hook is guaranteed, then the enemy elected to get in her face, while her E was still up, in which case, they are playing against the champion incorrectly are are going to be punished. In lane, you just treat Illaoi like blitzcrank, and dance around her instead of ever going for a face-first hard engage, similar as to how you deal with a fed darius. The ability itself isn't technically a hook ability, but the dynamics of it are more or less the same. I mean, you said it best, Illaoi has the most range out of the juggernauts, however cheeky is also correct in that she is the least mobile juggernaut, and these two things counterbalance one another. They made her with anti-synergy to mobility, because the more you chase, and move away from where you were before, the weaker you get because you lose your tentacles.
: > [{quoted}](name=Knight Kore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjneIFjw,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-18T17:22:55.778+0000) > > I mean, its a weaker blitzcrank hook, and she has less ability to catch someone with it because of her immobility and E projectile speed. Yeah, but Blitzcrank is essentially a hook bot + 1 melee range knock up and some burst. And he doesn't heal off hitting someone, and he possibly puts himself at risk by using it if he's alone and cant follow up.
If Illaoi can't land an E, her damage is MASSIVELY reduced. It is the bread and butter of her kit. Even in a 5 man ult, if you miss your E, at 600 damage Qs, you've just lost out on 600-3000 damage across their team, plus another 500-1000 to the person you E'd. The second Illaoi misses her E in lane or in skirmish you can dick her. The thing about blitz hook is if he hits you, he takes you to where he hooked. If Illaoi hooks you, she CANNOT kill you from that hook unless she hits YOU after she's hit her E. Getting hit by an Illaoi E is more annoying, and but it is, usually, not a death sentence.
: > [{quoted}](name=TheCheekySneak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjneIFjw,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2016-12-18T06:42:53.553+0000) > > I wouldn't exactly call Kindred or Ivern lane bullies, and Illaoi is sorta gated in terms of raw bullying ability by her immobility. Sure, she can be pretty brutal up close but that's sorta what she's balanced around being a juggernaut and all. Except she has the most range out of all the juggernauts. Lacks a hard engage or crowd control for it, but taking 30-50% of ur health from mage range with her E is pretty bs if she manages to hit it.
I mean, its a weaker blitzcrank hook, and she has less ability to catch someone with it because of her immobility and E projectile speed.
: when i say pretty much everyone in the game i mean anyone that ISN'T a tank/stacked mr, i get why i won't be able to delete the 4k sion in 1 rotation but after about 6 rotations i would like to have actually HAVE DONE something. but i don't want my recourse to dealing with tanks to be "pick a different champion." I think that i should have the options to deal with tanks when i'm a mage but it should be HARDER if i'm not the right one for the job, rather than just not really having the options at all. I want there to be more focus on things being played right rather than just not playing the proper champion. and honestly i think flora would have a good design if she didn't have that W, and true damage that allows her to scale into the late game. I think that a good way to design counters is similar to the {{champion:101}} vs {{champion:268}} match up where the ball is in Xeraths court and he totally has the advantage but because xerath is all skill shots you have to actually play the match up correctly in order to beat your opponent and your opponent still has outplay potential because you have the possibility to miss your moves. Rather than say, oh that sion beat me because he literally just had so much MR/HP that i would run out of mana before i killed him
I mean, the thing is lategame is about champion picks. Your teamcomp will always matter, because thats the nature of hero-oriented games. If you can deal with tanks as a squishy-seeking mage, you then either have no reason to pick the target-agnostic mages, or have to make the target agnostic mages good at squishy-seeking. You either get overlap and overshadowing, or homogeneity that makes them all play the same.
: "a class thats actively encouraged to build health as its main defensive stat." see thats the part where this doesn't apply to me and why i PERSONALLY would want an item like LDR for mages because i go out of my way to not get defensive items. My ultimate goal is to be able to burst down pretty much everyone on the enemy team. In terms of being able to dish out damage and kill takes LDR is better, and thats my point, simple as that. I would like more options for people such as myself who want to build hyper aggressive full offensive builds but don't want to be cucked by the {{champion:14}}. ADC's have options to deal with tanks, tanks have options to deal with ADC's in items like {{item:3075}} so why not give mages an item that is specifically made for destroying tanks?
> In terms of being able to dish out damage and kill takes LDR is better, and thats my point, simple as that LDR is not a bigger damage amp than void for the majority of the game, because those burst mages you imply you like to play tend to have insane base damages. Syndra's strength comes from her bases as much, if not moreso from her bases than her ratios (not saying that the bases do more damage than the ratios, but her windows of power are greatly elevated due to them). No class should be able to "burst down pretty much everyone on the enemy team." Yes, you should be given recourse to the HP or MR stacking, however, under no circumstance should a burst mage or assassin be able to burst down a Sion who has built a significant amount of MR and HP. Because, if you can burst down Sion in a full rotation, then squishies do not stand a ghost of a chance. ADCs get a recourse against tanks because its their job as a class to be able to kill them. There are tank-busting mages, those tend to be target-agnostic and/or DoT/DPS champions. For example: {{champion:50}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:90}} There are some exemptions. Most obviously is Vel'Koz, who is a target-agnostic AoE DoT/Burst/Poke mage hybrid. If burst mages were target-agnostic, then their damage should basically be all %HP, because that's the only way you're going to balance that against a squishy. And I wouldn't ask for that, because the last time we got a "target agnostic" champion, we got Fiora.
: an item that does more damage to champs for how much HP they have, with 50 points of a damage stat and 45% bonus pen, is way better than just 80 ap and some pen.
Normal AD items have ~75 AD LDR gives ~50AD Normal AP items have 100AP Void gives 80AP Pretty close on that front. Now as for the Giant Slayer + Bonus Pen or %pen, %pen wins out. There is a reason LDR is widely considered worse than the Last Whisper of olde. Alongside that, mages often try to kill squishies, rather than tanks like ADCs are often forced to hit. Having an item that increases damage dealt based on how much more HP someone has than you seems pretty bad on a class thats actively encouraged to build health as its main defensive stat. Lastly, the roles of Last Whisper Items and Void Staff are different. While they both generally serve the tank-busting idea, the items have different core philosophies. Last Whisper items are meant to be built on consistent damage dealers specifically to deal with armor stacking, which is why Zed building LW to help oneshot squishies was deemed unhealthy. Void staff is meant in the most basic sense to enhance the base damages inherent to an AP champion's kit. Void staff is a general purpose buy that can be bought by different champions at different times for different powerspikes. A high base damage mage such as Syndra or an assassin like LeBlanc can realistically get a Void Staff 2nd or third as a VERY efficient item to boost their midgame power. After the mage update chunked AP, you started seeing the rise of these Morello's Luden's/Rylai's Voidstaff builds because of how much damage you can pump out if you are consistently hitting high base damage abilities with a Voidstaff. Its why Deathcap has been pushed out of some mage builds entirely, because void gives you that multiplication of power you need in a lot of circumstances, without the cumbersome cost or AP requirement.
: So juggernauts/fighters feel like complete dog shit right now
Speak for yourself, I'm having a tentacle party top lane and loving every second of it. {{champion:420}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:420}}
: Yeah those shyvana "buffs" should not go through.
Riot has said Shyvana will be balanced around her not NEEDING her passive, but using it as a way to influence her gameplay patterns.
The Fast (NA)
: PSA: Take New Fervor of Battle on Illaoi
: 90% buy it for the pen. the other 10% buy it to not lose lane, magic resist. do you understand how hard it is to stack magic pen? sorc boots, liandries, and abyssal, thats it.
Well there's no Pen on it anymore at least. Abyssal, for anyone that could build it, was an item that let you win lane super hard, and made you super hard for your opponent to come back on. My point is that Abyssal IS an awesome combat stat stick. A first item abyssal, on its users, is/was more oppressive than a first item cleaver, even after the abyssal change that made it scale with level. Offensive utility items in league have always been selfish. You can argue that its wrong, sure, but then you'd have to argue against both BC and Abyssal, at least in my eyes.
: thats because they're meant to be cheap utility options, not awesome combat stat sticks like cleaver.
Abyssal is almost never bought as a utility option. Its almost always bought as "I need to not die against this enemy AP mid, and I still need to be able to kill them" item. That's been its niche since forever. BC is a synergy-reliant Abyssal that focuses on tanks instead of squishies.
: Cost Analysis* Gold Value 50 attack damage = 1750 Gold 300 health = 800 Gold 20% cooldown reduction = 533.33 Gold Total Gold Value = 3083.33 Gold Gold Efficiency* The Black Cleaver's is 99.46% gold efficient without its two passives.
I mean, that's completely normal. Aura items generally aren't as expensive as cleaver, and also have slightly below efficient stats, so that their unique passives/actives come in to bolster the completed item. Thats how Abyssal and Locket worked, 'scept locket had a passive and and active.
nep2une (NA)
: Oh. I'm actually stupid. For the longest time, I thought it was lifesteal in general. Not just autoattacks. Well... this is mildly embarrassing.
Lifesteal is just auto attacks yeah. I mean, don't be embarrassed. I remember at one point I used to get two Nashor's Tooths on Teemo. Spellvamp is for spells, like in the tier-3 mastery. And Death's Dance gives both, so long as the damage is physical.
nep2une (NA)
: Is it better than Bloodlust? I used to take that for the lifesteal that increased as my own health got lower, which synergized really well with the % missing health heal on tentacles. And it made duels where I was almost dead but managed to sustain through Bloodlust's massive healing at that point + tentacle heals a win for me instead of them.
Bloodlust gives lifesteal, which is good obviously, however most of Illaoi's damage comes from her tentacles and not her auto attacks. Lets say Illaoi is level 18, and has 250AD A tentacle lash is 234 + 1.56% Total AD, or 624. Fervor's 60AD, assuming you dont have an AD buff, a tentacle lash would be 718 damage. Of course, you have to stack it, BUT you are guaranteed to stack Fervor over the course of your ultimate, and the nearly 100 extra damage from multiple tentacles, with a deaths dance, I believe easily overtakes Warlord's healing. Not to mention, at the beginning of your ultimate, Warlord's isn't healing you for a lot, but Fervor is still giving you 6-12-18AD at the start of your ultimate, which around 800g worth of stats I believe, which are ARE healing from. Of course, this is not counting %dmg increases from masteries, which would make fervor lashes do more damage and heal her for more with DD. If you really want the lifesteal for earlier trades, then what I would do is run some lifesteal quints. Not necessarily 3, but having some in there should give you that effect you are looking for, while giving you more damage to lifesteal from.
Rioter Comments
: You don't play juggernauts do you? Storm raider is a dream on garen dairus mord nasus. Skate should use the new one that give a shield Illioa uses deathfire
Not anymore. Ferver on Illaoi is her new Keystone. Its INSANE what she does with it.
Poske (EUNE)
: Velkoz was in horrible spot regardless The fact that he is strictly worse syndra Was obvious to me even before he got released HE IS just a Generic mage. He ll either ouclass or be outclassed But hey atleast he has A niche in a botlane as the best dmg dealer support...
> Velkoz was in horrible spot regardless Didn't realize top 5 mid winrates was a bad spot? Granted he's still there, but he feels worse to play >The fact that he is strictly worse syndra Was obvious to me even before he got released Are you confusing color scheme with champion kits? Vel'koz and Syndra aren't even in the same class of mage. Syndra is a single-target burst mage with AoE who prefers skirmishes, while Vel'koz is a hybrid damage kite-focused artillery mage who prefers teamfights. >HE IS just a Generic mage. He ll either ouclass or be outclassed I'd say he's significantly less generic than Lux or Xerath. His niche was the level-reliant teamfight hybrid damage artillery mage, whereas post rework they removed his level reliance in favor of item reliance, like every other artillery mage. >But hey atleast he has A niche in a botlane as the best dmg dealer support... Yeah but that was also dicked by the rework since they chose to funnel his damage into building AP as opposed to his old unique build path.
: [suggestion] Make Barrier shield twice as Strong for half the duration
I always thought barrier should give resistances or DR for its duration. I think that'd be a better solution than just increasing the shield.
Sintama (NA)
: {{item:3036}} I just got out of a game. I was poppy. ~4k hp and 517 armor. Both Graves and Vayne could 3-shot me.
Since I can't be arsed to do the exact math right now, I'll round for some of this. Poppy has 88.5 Base armor, meaning you had 428.5 bonus armor. Completed LW would reduce your armor total to 324.5. Your effective physical health then increases to 16,960. Silver Bolts would do 480 true damage, which would make the effective physical HP go to 14,924. For Vayne to 3shot you, with guinsoo's already stacked, she would need to hit you for 5000 raw damage per auto. Might have fucked this up somewhere. Am tired.
: I don't think you've ever played Udyr if you actually think what you say is true. Tiger Udyr has always been far weaker than Phoenix. Phoenix stance has been nerfed very hard, TWICE. His hp regen was nerfed and his turtle stance shield was nerfed. In addition to this, the 2 jungle items that made him overpowered were both changed. Runic echoes was nerfed hard and devourer was removed. After a series of nerfs and his synergy with 2 items being completely ruined, he is in an extremely bad spot, basically being a poor man's Hecarim. You talk about Master Yi as if you have no idea what damage carries are. Yi has a few decent steroids but he's an AD carry. He has 0 CC, is very ult reliant, and very kill reliant. Having 100% AS from a 2650 gold item AND ultimate doesn't mean anything, Tristana gets more than that from her Q alone. Exactly like Udyr, he was nerfed heavily before the 2 items that pushed him over the top were removed or changed. Devourer was removed, rageblade was turned into a heaping pile of shit. You have no idea how balance works if you just look at a kit that is 70% as effective as it was a few months ago and claim the champion is incredible.
> I don't think you've ever played Udyr if you actually think what you say is true. Tiger Udyr has always been far weaker than Phoenix. No, Tiger has always been more early focused than Phoenix. Tiger Udyr has always been less popular because of how snowball dependent it is, and how much his waveclear is hurt without ranks in phoenix. > Phoenix stance has been nerfed very hard, TWICE. His hp regen was nerfed and his turtle stance shield was nerfed. In addition to this, the 2 jungle items that made him overpowered were both changed. Phoenix stance was nerf'd moderately. Its no where near underpowered or useless or overnerfed, especially when you go AP-offbuild like Rob was saying. Is it statistically weaker? Yes. Too weak? Not necessarily. > Runic echoes was nerfed hard and devourer was removed. Udyr could always use every single jungle item. Runic Echoes was nerfed, but it is still a great, competitive item. Most Udyrs didn't even use Devourer by the time it was removed, they were on Cinderhulk, which recently got buffed. The jungle items favor udyr as much or as little as they have before, priorities have just swapped around. >After a series of nerfs and his synergy with 2 items being completely ruined, he is in an extremely bad spot, basically being a poor man's Hecarim. If you EVER played Udyr for the same reasons you played Hecarim, you have not been playing one of those champions correctly. Their only similarities is getting tanky and going fast. And the items getting weaker doesn't mean he does not have synergy with them, or that they are not still moderately strong. > Exactly like Udyr, he was nerfed heavily before the 2 items that pushed him over the top were removed or changed. Devourer was removed, rageblade was turned into a heaping pile of shit. The items that were putting Udyr over the top was Runic Echoes and Zz'rot portal. Most people didn't even buy Guinsoo's, not that it wasn't strong on him. It was no where near the reason Udyr got nerfed, and like I said, neither was devourer, and devourer was never Udyr's only option. > You have no idea how balance works if you just look at a kit that is 70% as effective as it was a few months ago and claim the champion is incredible. A champion can be nerfed at some point, then not touched, then reemerge due to other changes in the game. Like Bruiser Yi. Hadn't been changed since S5, then became P/B then had be to nerfed. Likewise, the buffs to trinity and AP itemization HAVE buffed Udyr a large amount. Amazing spot doesn't mean overbearingly strong, it could be he literally just feels really good to play, and thats good enough. TL;DR - You are wrong on a lot of points, and Udyr's history does not have anything to do with his current strength, as the game exists beyond just his numbers. That isn't to say Udyr ISN'T strong or weak, just that the points being made were not really valid.
Jaygo41 (NA)
: For all our balance criticism, THIS needs to be recognized
Almost every jungler type. Control junglers aren't very good right now, Counterjungling isn't so much a tactic as much as it is something you do when you are on the wrong side of the map. The reward for counter-jungling has been kinda neutered in this season, and while I don't like seeing Nunu, there needs to be a niche there for him and other champions like him. Right now the only time counterjungling is the main strat is when you are playing Kindred.
: Technically he nopes the fork out when he's already dead as his HP bar falls down to 0 and the rest is Kled's HP bar. But yeah, he also knows he should return If Kled pokes or clears enough, which is good If he's supposed to be assasin or whatnot.
That's the thing though, Skaarl is immortal, he's just a wuss.
: > [{quoted}](name=GuardAbuse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PLw1hsky,comment-id=000500020000,timestamp=2016-08-12T23:22:53.590+0000) > > {{champion:238}} Armor in your runes (I also take attack speed against any melee champ if I'm ranged for that auto harass) You almost always run armor regardless.
Early game, flat HP provides almost every single champion in the game with more effective HP than armor seals. With respect to lane before first back, if you are not taking at least 70% of the damage as physical damage, then HP seals are more effective than armor seals. However BOTH of these options are strictly WORSE than scaling HP runes after level 6, as they start getting outscaled rather spectacularly, barring a heavy HP build mid for some reason, in which case you'd want to run scaling armor or MR to maximize tankiness. So no, you don't almost always run armor seals. Especially in mid lane, armor seals against a magic damage threat. Especially against MULTIPLE magic damage threats. This set up has some some very large synergy with common AP defensive items Abyssal Scepter and Zhonya's, whose defensive capabilities get multiplied alongside your increased health pool. This is why runes are in the game, they provide strategy, and allow you to further customize what part of the game you want to be strongest at. However how they are currently implemented is rather annoying.
: Names For Yasuo Main? Winner will get a skin
I got some: * Wind Scarred (Both a reference to yasuo and his past, and Inuyasha, who uses wind sword techniques) * Hurricane Ronin (Disgraced Samurai) * Walling'n'Balling * Wind Walker * Breath of Death * Wind Sheer * Tempered Wind/Air * Chains of Wind * Stolen Breath * Breath's Dance
: When trying to help an ally who has been rooted by enemy Morgana...
: I missed this, but yeah, that's interesting. At first I thought it was just the Noxian being derisive, but Kled seems to acknowledge it too.
But like, thats because he is old. He is as old as Noxus itself.
: Statistically the items are almost the same. The passives create a little variation, but they're hardly more distinct from one another than Athene's and Morello's were. Also 99% is a huge exaggeration, Morrelo's was the better choice about 60-70% of the time, but Athene's gave even more mana regen and a little bit of magic resist. Plus Chalice was a much better mana sustain item early on than forbidden idol.
Each Zeal item serves a strategic niche, while the stats they give are the same/similar, their purposes are otherwise VERY different. Athene's and Morrelo's had a Defensive/Offensive thing going on, but rarely were they ever considered even in power. Most of the time, one was just flat better than the other, first Grail, then Morello's. Current Zeal items each have a specific use case and win condition they are playing towards. Firecannon is Siege and Poke, Shiv is waveclear, and PD is Kite/Dueling. Morello/Grail was basically a choice between MR or more AP, and the choice more or less purely came down to which ever one was more gold efficient at the time.
: TBH I kind of see him being a jungler, actually. Link up with mid/top/bot for a speedy 3-4 man lane gank. Don't need to worry about your W timings when farming jungle. Getting invaded 'just' meaning you lose your steed instead of a kill sounds nice, and you might even get the steed back if an ally helps collapse and you duel the invader for a while. Hell if you successfully gank and get a kill but lose your steed you can just swat the tower a few times (or hell, just pass by Dragon/Herald and hit it a few times to 'regen' depending how the math works out).
Problem is you can't charge skaarl up in the jungle at all. Which means if you lose him, you not only lost the majority of your damage, you lost the majority of your HP which you cannot recover, AND your movespeed gets gutted to 285 when you aren't mounted and running towards and enemy champion. Your clearspeed will get destroyed by the 285 movespeed and if they get rid of Skaarl, and the Pocket Pistol doesn't save you, you straight up die because you are now basically permaslowed by ~20% . Healing cannot bring back skaarl, its literally only the passive that can bring him back, so early lifesteal won't work and you only get 5 Courage per attack on an objective. His ultimate is the only real reason to think he'd be a jungler, and even then it has a 160 second cooldown, so he'll just get outpaced by other junglers. He just isn't meant to be jungle and every mechanic his kit is centered around wants him as far away from the jungle as possible. Hell, apparently his E can't go over walls?
: Pretty sure Riot stated he is "Far from tanky"
Citation? I didn't see this at all. EDIT: Oh in the Lulu part. He's a bruiser yeah, but so is Gnar. He's GOING to be tanky, because his tank scaling and engage potential is too good for him to not be.
: To add to this point, krugs also have unit collision with each other. As a ranged champion, you can kite the krugs such that the big krug keeps running into the small krug while it's trying to get to you while also taking very little damage from the small krug. The only reason you take damage from the camp is that the area around krugs is rectangular, meaning that while you are kiting it you need to close in melee range of the krugs to kite to the other side of them in order to not reset the patience meter. It's the easiest camp to kite because of this unit collision. Gromp doesn't have the same level of area to kite due to the smaller area, gromp being ranged, and the area being rectangular, and in my opinion is one of the hardest camps to kite, and is arguably the most impractical to kite.
This is true, but the kinds of champions that value gromp are also the kinds of champions that take a long time to take Krugs, ala Amumu and Naut and Sejuani and the like. Yes, they still clear gromp faster than Krugs, but just because you feel Krugs more than you feel gromp, doesn't actually mean its doing more. Point 4(again) is really the important take away. Gromp buff is the only buff that scales, it basically makes up for the nerf to thornmail in terms of damage, granted it is delayed, but it also doesn't cost gold. When I said comparable, I didn't mean to imply they were the same, and I realize I worded that badly. Its a significant difference, but not a large one. Gromp is certainly more damaging and harder to kite, however it is also the only non-objective buff that damages enemy champions, and** snowballs alongside your itemization (for tanks). ** Plus, lets not ignore what someone else said on this thread about gromp being a one monster camp meaning leashes are more effective for it. **I certainly agree that blue start is underutilized and sometimes just better, however saying clearing gromp is a general waste is just not true.** That 3 damage per second over the 20-30 seconds it takes to clear blue adds up to 60-90 damage, not to mention the damage in other camps, which at level 1 is significant enough to effect clears heavily. You may say getting leashed on blue puts you ahead in HP for you clear, which I would then counter with the fact that your clear speed has now been hit. Gromp into Blue, for champions that want to do it, strikes the balance between HP and EXP/Gold, and you should do blue if you think you need the HP more than the EXP/Gold early. Lastly, the caps on %maxHP moves rarely every are hit for non-objective monsters. The only champion I know of that regularly hits the damage cap of your %maxHP move on basic jungle camps is Tahm Kench with his W, and thats because his his 20-32% max HP, so I understand what Quaker was saying after rereading.
: why does kled have % hp damage? Isn't that just asking for the next ekko/fizz
You are implying he's not meant to be a tank in the first place. Its pretty obvious he fits in that Gnar niche. He's a tank top champion, who is probably going to build black cleaver then full tank. EDIT: I'm wrong about his intended role, but I still think he's going to be built at the very LEAST light brusier. Maybe that 300% Bonus AD shield will prove me wrong though.
: 1. these champions almost exclusively build blue smite 2. Amumu is better with runic echo 3. unwise to have red buff on your tank during a teamfight 4.thornmail is trash 5. does 3 dmg/second really mean anything in a teamfight? 6. jungle monsters take reduced damage from.%hp dmg abilities 7. gromp is the tankiest non–buff camp and does the most dmg
1. Because they do, doesn't mean they should. 2. Agreed. 3. Doesn't mean he can't have it, nor does this have to be a teamfight situation. 4. Unless against full AD teams, yeah. **4(again). Biggest point here: Gromp doesn't do 10 damage over 3 seconds. Gromp does 10 + (5% Bonus Health) over 3 seconds. so a tank with 2500 Bonus HP won't be doing 3 damage over 3 seconds with Gromp, he'll be doing 135 damage over 3 seconds which is more damage than redbuff, granted, its magic damage, but it still can't be ignored.** 5. Not all %max HP damage moves have a damage cap against monsters, but these upper limits still tend to be VERY high base damage. For example, Zac's W has a damage cap of 300 at rank 5. Gragas W is 440 damage. But I agree that the distinction being made for %MaxHP by Quaker is kinda unnecessary. **6. Gromp is the tankiest and highest damaging SINGLE MONSTER in the jungle, but not the tankiest and highest damage monster CAMP in the jungle. Gromp's got 1600HP, 75AD, and .63 AS, While the Krug camp collectively has 1950HP, 100AD at .613 AS. Gromp is very comparable in tankiness and damage to Krugs as a camp, if you take AoE and Gromp's 5 extra base armor into account.**
: The problem with Yasuo is that, out of the gate, his entire kit's overloaded, massively. They've nerfed some things, but left in some of the most heinous offenders: Dash builds the Free Shield Crit's Doubled Ignoring Armor after ult Dash's cooldown's low to the point of hilariousness Better Braum Shield on his W. Not Gated by Energy/Mana/Anything.
> Dash builds the Free Shield FFS he hasn't had this for years. I hate Yasuo as much as the next guy, but at least know the champion you're complaining about.
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The Fast

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