Rioter Comments
: [TFT] Teamfight Tactics Release Timeline and Temporary Restrictions
I think Riot just trying to avoid Clash Part 2. Modes that might be too popular will get this issue. If we're all excited for the 1 mode, then we'll try to play it AS SOON AS RELEASED. (I know i been waiting at least 2 hrs now impatiently). This means that we'll swarm the servers and crash them, taking what's supposed to be a fun exciting experience and turning it into a nightmare for Riot's Technical staff and their PR. Not to mention us players will be stung from the experience and feel falsely advertised to. Every since Clash being too successful in terms of the demand that we fried the supply, Riot has been tip-toe'ing, and I can't blame them..., cuz the 2nd Clash better be done right. Alot of my peers all who were super excited, and invested alot of time into practicing and brainstorming comps etc specifically for clash have been extremely letdown. Killed alot of vibe globally. All this to say, I totally understand the vagueness in release time of the mode and wish to remind everyone.., it's still AM in all of NA. They aren't late at all.
: Yuumi Is Incredibly Annoying
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Please don't go through with these Janna changes
Also. I don't like the dmg part of her passive. It's trash. Prefer an ms to AP conversion than ms to dmg.
: Please don't go through with these Janna changes
To me there are already better poke champs. Janna is trade/shield champ and this incentivises that theme in her kit. Shield ally and actively peel for them would be more to her theme than occasional strong nuke then back off. Are we Janna players or Brands?
: In all seriousness, I do admire Riot when they try things
I like they put in effort to keep the game fresh. Even something seemingly benign like scuttle timer changes rocks the meta. What i don't like is the priority of keeping the game fresh more than fair.
: Riot intentionally gives lower gains/higher losses in diamond.
The top of the ladder is thinner than below it. Because of this fact it is mathematically the most genuine approach. Not going to be as gracious as Kai and explain. Feel free to salt and downvote but know that you downvote cuz of lack of research on the reasoning of it or salt.
Rioter Comments
: Oh look suddenly the item nobody cared for nor built suddenly has a bunch of people supporting it and allegedly building... where have I seen this before
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mms5Entk,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-04-03T16:11:58.172+0000) > > Oh look suddenly the item nobody cared for nor built suddenly has a bunch of people supporting it and allegedly building... where have I seen this before To be completely honest, I used old Wit's End as core on my Rammus, ELise and Warwick builds. 3 of my 6 main junglers. I built those junglers as tanky divers. I also used wit's End on cho'gath jungle before his rework (when his E was a continual toggle than for 3 hits) .., OLd Wit's End was lowkey OP but just not popular.
: except the game itself is not designed for heavily coordinated and practiced gameplay. Quite a few of the highest-level players exploit the system just by using voice chat, let alone all of the perks that being a professional player has (such as MONEY MONEY MONEY) the game is designed around 5 random people coming together and duking it out with 5 other people in contests of skill and strategy
> [{quoted}](name=3TWarrior,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YcAEWK3I,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2019-03-24T16:56:34.578+0000) > > except the game itself is not designed for heavily coordinated and practiced gameplay. Quite a few of the highest-level players exploit the system just by using voice chat, let alone all of the perks that being a professional player has (such as MONEY MONEY MONEY) > > the game is designed around 5 random people coming together and duking it out with 5 other people in contests of skill and strategy It's based around people coming together. Aka synergising. Even still.., people just prefer free OPness on what they have locked in than for champs to have equal oppurtunity at ideal levels of play. Equality to the privileged feels like oppression, don't it? Differently I hope 1 April fools riot adds mana/energy costs to resourseless champs just so they get to experience true resource management and stop crying when riot nerfs their obviously OP champ when that champ is genuinely too powered number wise for the passes their kit gets.
Quepha (NA)
: How is Sylas not just a standard problematic bruiser from 2014 and earlier?
Tbh, his kit is waaay too loaded for having the best ultimate in the game. And then has way too much power. His kit is loaded, his numbers are loaded and his ultimate... Many champs can't build the stats that boosts their ultimate without sacrificing not being as reliable with their purpose or rest of their kit. Ashe can't boost her ultimate without sacrificing the rest of her kit. Rammus can't boost his dmg without sacrificing his function (dmg absorbing). And alot of these champs have extreme ult ratios to compensate for the fact they sacrifice too much of their role or function if they invest too much into the stat that scales their ultimate. And Sylas straight bypasses this. His burst scales on AP and CDR. His DPS scales on AP and CDR. His sustain scales on AP and CDR (and his missing hp). His shield scales on AP and CDR. And any ultimate he steals scales on the very stat that makes the rest of his kit flourish. Clearly the testing department needs revision. Of course he was going to be super problematic.
Rioter Comments
: Kleptomancy
I feel like it's 100% a can i exploit this rune. If you can it's one of best in slot. If not it's worst in slot. It's literally a stat rune and not a strat rune if you get what I'm saying.
: No it's a recon/trap tool it doesn't provide extra vision score. Should {{champion:4}} get vision every ult? If you must know though go to practice tool
> [{quoted}](name=Corrector1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=REv7sJpi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-31T21:38:46.814+0000) > > No it's a recon/trap tool it doesn't provide extra vision score. Should {{champion:4}} get vision every ult? If you must know though go to practice tool I suspect Ashes Owl does. But my point is that 1 vision score is supposedly equivalent to 1 minute of vision gained for your team or denied by you from the other team. Teemo shrooms are actually wards on steroids that u can have upwards of 20 of in a game. In practice due to enemy being nuked by them a good teemo only has upwards of 6 on a map at a given time. When people are scared of a teemo it's typically the practicality and potency of his shrooms as it relates to map movements, Not the champ but his ability to practically deny non minion-pathed areas of the map. But it's not clear enough why or whether teemo is OP. That's why i want the vision he obtains to count towards the vision score so at least 1 stat can cue riot and the community onto the major anomaly.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
CytheGuy (NA)
: Kayle is dominating lanes right now for ONE REASON
While i don't tie Kayle being strong to klepto being strong.., I'll agree that Kleptomancy is indeed too strong. And so is Kayles post 16.
: The worst thing you can do to a champ is to break them on account of pro play
I disagree. If riot balances a champ around how the best players are using that champ within the best team synergy setting...., that's intended. The audacity of these kinds of post f'real. I'm not good enough to heavily exploit this champ i play so please keep it over powered leaning to compensate for me and others who don't grind out for the skill necessary to bring out the best in the champ. Also ignore that the best players are straight exploiting the champ. People who play my OP champ better than me are killing the game for me. This probably offends most of you cuz the truth will sting some egos :/
Rioter Comments
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations Part 2
-Negative on PD change, Like the live PD (survival tied to skill expression) more than this one (hexdrinker thing) -The crit chance changes are fine -Welcome back old ER woot woot -Positive on the IE change -New ER here to stay woot woot
PhRoXz0n (NA)
: Crit Item Explorations
To be honest, the only real culprit here is IE. It's supposed to be like Rabbadon's deathcap for IE builds. But the true damage conversion and the doubling crit chance makes IE feel awkward to build with other items. I feel less inclined to build armour pen since IE chops off some of my physical damage. I feel less inclined to go crit+lifesteal since IE cuts off some of my physical auto attack damage. I feel less inclined to build 2 zeal upgrades and IE since IE doubles two Zeal upgrades to a cost inefficient 120% total crit. To be clear, the Zeal Upgrades are Excelent as they are. But introduce some new items that slot in at 20% crit Or intrroduce some new items that slot in at 25% crit and change zeal upgrades to 25% crit. I think you should: (IE suggestions) 1) Remove IE true damage conversion 2) Reintroduce crit damage on IE (just less obscene than 50%, maybe 20%-35% based on lvl) 3) Leave the doubling of crit in IE. (New item suggestions) 4) Introduce a new AD/crit item that converts some of damage of crits to a true damage bleed 5) Introduce a new AD/crit item that aids mana and CDR issues. ("Zeal upgrades" suggestions) 6) Change at least one of the zeal upgrade items to 25% crit. (I recommend rapid fire cnnon and static shiv at least since those items synergise and are commonly built together)
: Clash: October 2018 update
: It took a full rework...
Have the mass opinions changed on new Aatrox yet? Or #toosoon
: Being able to play anything botlane is not a problem
Marksman main here..., I agree. I've tried my hand at other champ arechetype in bot but still but the mobility creep especially is aids. Inspite of that I actually think Marksmen are in a balanced spot right now. We were never intended to hard spike at one item. It was always intended that our itemisation scaled our damage multiplicatively from low DPS to insane DPS as we jacked on more items. And our ranged nature allows us to risk going more glass cannon than other classes provided we compensate via our kiting and positioning. Leave the extreme one or double item power spikes for "inherently riskier" melees but ffs, some melees have three times the target accessibility potential as marksmen. Brute-force that with invulnerability or reduced vulnerability windows and Marksman become too out classed. IMO mobility creep is the biggest issue here since melees being allowed windows off invulnerability or reduced vulnerability kinda permits skill expression as suitable compensation. Irelia, Yasuo and Yi especially feel too brute forced. Awaiting nerfs on them specifically. Possibly Rengar too but I'm yet to see that in bot (nor have i yet seen bot yi, the funnel strat is much preferred by Yi or straight jungling)
Rioter Comments
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: So Meddler thinks gold funneling will be fixed by nerfing nunu and taric
I completely agree that nerfing champs one by one is a game of wack-a-mole. Riot needs to take a more generalized approach to the issue. I don't like to only complain, so i made a post with what i think would be suitable solutions. [My post on the topic](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/umPmVbuE-as-a-marksman-main)
: Why Many Aatrox Mains are Dissatisfied with His New Rework
I like how Aatrox was complained about to be the weakest top laner. A long while back Riot said he was in line to be re-worked but in the meantime they'll give him some small QoL. I remember his popularity shot up and as that happened, it was soon realised Aatrox wasn't the weakest top-laner but infact the strongest. Tbh the "Aatrox Mains" brought this on themselves, not only that but the champion is actually way more fun in terms of options and opportunity for skill expression. He just won't be as broken or his skill expression won't be based upon when to switch W and if you can brute-force a fight.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lord Bache,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=umPmVbuE,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-22T19:31:29.084+0000) > > 1) Non-buff Monsters have takedown exp sharing. This is so that the champion that the gold is being funneled onto pays a shared battle exp price for sharing...., the experience of the battle (of the jungle camp). This is thematically fair without affecting buff leashes. This is factually wrong. While Buff leashes are the most common they aren't the only camps that get leashed currently or in the past. Also think you misunderstand why the gold funneling strat exists and why it popped up on 8.10. In effect a fed hyper carry+support > Traditional JG+MID. In order to create a gamestate were gold funneling isn't meta you need to tip the scales towards JG+MID > fed hyper carry+support. Making mid+jg share XP in these strats doesn't really accomplish that as generally speaking the hyper carry is a gold dependent champ rather then XP, while the "support" is XP dependent rather then gold. So sharing JG xp would ultimately buff these strats compared to a traditional JG+MID. Riot needs to buff some more of the XP they took away from JG in 8.10 to increase the roles power level. Otherwise making mid+jg a duo laner is gonna be the new META.
> [{quoted}](name=BestPudgeNA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=umPmVbuE,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-06-24T01:59:12.722+0000) > > This is factually wrong. While Buff leashes are the most common they aren't the only camps that get leashed currently or in the past. > > Also think you misunderstand why the gold funneling strat exists and why it popped up on 8.10. > > In effect a fed hyper carry+support > Traditional JG+MID. In order to create a gamestate were gold funneling isn't meta you need to tip the scales towards JG+MID > fed hyper carry+support. Making mid+jg share XP in these strats doesn't really accomplish that as generally speaking the hyper carry is a gold dependent champ rather then XP, while the "support" is XP dependent rather then gold. So sharing JG xp would ultimately buff these strats compared to a traditional JG+MID. > > Riot needs to buff some more of the XP they took away from JG in 8.10 to increase the roles power level. Otherwise making mid+jg a duo laner is gonna be the new META. Re-read. I would go through point by point to show where i didn't say what or where i acknowledged what but.., i think you missed out on what i was communicating.
SmashinBob (EUNE)
: As a marksman main you should be aware that you are playing a gold funneling strat every time you play your role.
> [{quoted}](name=SmashinBob,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=umPmVbuE,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2018-06-23T16:55:00.973+0000) > > As a marksman main you should be aware that you are playing a gold funneling strat every time you play your role. Note how i mention the Exp Sharing idea will affect Bot lane and roaming supports as well..., I'm fully aware it functions like that. Being allocated one of the 4 potential gold streams while sharing that streams exp is one thing. But being allocated 2 of the potential gold streams while benefiting fully from the exp streams of one of those resources ESPECIALLY if you were aided in obtaining those resources is a completely different circumstance and in fact what ppl refer to when they speak of gold funneling strat.
: As A Marksman Main...
But I won't lie the critique on my idea did get me thinking. Especially the exp concerns and the is doing anything even necessary/just a meta shit concerns? Like is addressing gold fthe wrong approach? What are alternatives? How is the strat countered in game (as opposed to how is it messed up).
: As A Marksman Main...
Ok, lol. IN response to the '....' thing: I'm sorry I am not an avid forum user anymore and I kinda liked the dots thing. I refer the faded line separator thing and once i figure out how to do it.., i'll be doing it. IN response to Marksman related comments: I personally believe Marksmen are in a terrific place for their intended purpose. And they are builds that circumvent the lowered spikes from the crit items rework. I main Tristana, Ashe, Vayne and Twitch. And Even prior to this patch with the slight buffs to trist an twitch I found that they were in a good place. Protect Comps have low key been meta so long that anything that spikes from bot lane earlier feels like chaos. The Only issue I have with Marksman is the game needs a 20% crit item. But 'm not even sure how I'd fit in in my builds as they are already complete. The long story of this meta is that rushinng crit early is sub-par unless your champion has built in crit mechanics. Not necessarily that crit is bad, only that it's good after the 1st major item. And as a sneak preview.., BT into crit into IE is still a thing. Infact it actually helps deal with the increased threat adcs are seeing. ADCs are in a fine place, they just don't spike as early and that's fair..., If as an adc main I'm ahead of the curve early.., my comp becomes a protect comp from whatever it was before and we just maul. For the lessened risk of increased range and consistent damage it's fair to have a lowered early damage payoff. In response to funneling being simply a meta change: Before it was widely published on youtube etc, a friend and I tried it out a bit. It's strong but from the nunu/Taric side it's boring and you don't feel impactful. You actually feel alot like you're the hyper carry's * * *ch. Meanwhile on the hypercarry you feel no threat. Everything becomes essentially risk free. Counterjungling, skirmishes, farming mid, you always feel like you're superior in levels or items enough to take whatever fight you wish. The only thing you actually die from is your own cockiness. Like I played with bad ones, played as the strat both sides of the coin, played vs bad users of the strat as well as good users of the strat..., and I believe it's too OP. Extreme level advantages should be earned, not farmed. And that's the core of the issue to me, dealing with the superior lvling..., you really can't. A counter is hard shoving but tbh.., you can't hard shove to tower before the jungler clears 2 camps on the vast majority of champions. And Hard shoving serves to preserve your minions so that they end up receiving more of your minions alive and thus more exp. As pointed out by a marksman related post.., this means that the game tempo and thus outcome aren't dictated by any lane doing decent. A 2/0 adc will be as impactful as a 0/2 adc vs 0/0 hypercarry of this strat from sheer farm and level difference. Literally when every other champion of the game is in early-early-mid game strength, the funneled carry is at a solid mid-game when not fed..., I'm not ok with this and I don't want to have to absolutely stomp a lane just to stand a chance vs the mess gong on. All the exp penalties do is restrict the exp boosts of funnelers. If they want exp funnelinng on top of their gold funneling, they need to invest the funneled gold into removing the exp penalty. In response to exp tampering: This is already a strategy riot uses. Jungling items already give bonus exp from monsters. What this is equivalent to is non-junglers get a penalty on a _true total_ exp. I'm not re-inventing the wheel only reverse -engineering it. The exp lock-out is basically until 1st back and purchase since my preferred idea actually removes the lane minion exp penalty when a jungler completes the colored smite. Krugs are too much of a pain now to take so i do not anticipate the return of the bot lane krug starts ESPECIALLY since 1st krug clear has a deliberate exp penalty. And Krugs/Gromp spawn deliberately last. The cost on botlane taking them for themselves especially in a meta where being already 3/4 hp at lvl 2 may mean death and being snowballed on..., I could b wrong i guess but i sincerely doubt. In response to buff tankiness/damage of jungle mobs vs non-junglers: I am not in support. Any change to damage dealt and taken by all mobs across the board will heavily affect the efficiency and validity of leashes which in turn will heavily shift the amount of champions viable in the jungle. That's why i specifically exempted buff leashes. Even non-buff camps.., are a arguable to adjust damage dealt to or from. I don't want to discourage people helping junglers in the jungle, only that the jungler pays a shared price for the assistance or more accurately shares the reward for the assistance.
: As A Marksman Main...
Please give any feedback or alternatives. Even if you agree (read: especially) say why you do or what you feel could be added or taken away. This was intended as a discussion.
Rioter Comments
: [FEEDBACK] Experimental "Bruiser" Keystone: Conqueror
I would like to suggest an overhaul of this concept via your consideration of four ideas. Before that, I 100% support the in active champion combat charge time and i may forget to mentin but each of these 4 ideas actually consider this a pre-requisite. . 1) Instead of flat AD, make it amplify **Base AD**. _50% Base AD comes to around 60 AD_ on stronger melees.., so make it scale as the game goes on from **20%** Base AD to **40%** Base AD (not 50% so that you can account for how broken it'll be on sheen users). _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ 2) Lower the true damage conversion from 20% to **10%**. ..._And make that part of the skill temporary and but recurrent (like lethal tempo)_ until you've tested it appropriately on Akali, Rammus and Mundo at least. Also clarify what Kayle using her E qualifies as (whether ranged or melee since you didn't specify melee attacks refresh buff but "Melee **Only**" which may refer to melee champs only) ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ 3) Consider moving this skill to **Resolve tree** and making it appropriate stat wise. Gasp of the Undying is a bit lack luster for bruisers but it does aim to provide a 'reward' for being in combat. What added damage should look like in this tree ought to be related to the health or resists built. My idea is convert the amount of Bonus HP relative to the base HP to a percentage and make that percentage grant equivalent to Bonus Base AD (capped differently for melee and ranged champions of course). So if your melee champion has a Base HP at lvl 18 of 2000 and you have 3000 total HP then you have 50% of your base HP in Bonus HP. After 4 seconds in champion combat, grant the champion 50% base AD (assuming the maximum cap isn't below 50% for melees). ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 4) Move skill to resolve tree and _increase the threat of a champion based on total AND %missing HP._ Perhaps this is the concept that ought to replace Grasp of the Undying. But regardless, a champion should do occasional max hp based damage based on their max hp and this damage should be magnified by how low they are. If used to replace Grasp of the undying then say the typical 4% max hp dmg proc after four seconds with half of that vamped as healing. If that champion is missing %50 of their hp then the 4% max hp is magnified by 50% (of missing hp) to make 6% max hp of damage proc half of which is vamped. Alternatively if used on conquerer it can provide either stats and/or true damage conversion amplified by how low a champion is. Like for instance if conquerer gave flat AD or AP based on hp built and these base stats got amplified by how low the champion is. Or if conquerer gave a base percentage of true damage conversion after a small while in champion combat and this amplified based on how low that champion is. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ In summary as it stands I think the skill is a tad OP and has no interesting themes except melee preference. Bonus flat AD, converting some damage to true damage is quite offensively generic. At the core of a bruiser is the idea to balance tankiness with offensiveness. This keystone manages to not thematically represent that as is. the 2nd suggestion is more a tuning issue but the 1st, 3rd and 4th more directly explore building like a bruiser. P.S. I you want a quick tweak on grasp of the undying.., consider giving grasp bonus healing (and shielding?) from all sources like spirit visage but instead of flat, make it like Olaf's W and scale based on missing HP. Grasp of the Undying paints a picture of a beast that refuses to keel over. So thematically should be used to emphasize champions who cling to life while being at the edge of death (taking damage, high sustain like the juggernauts)
Rioter Comments
: Fervor of Battle comes back with Grasp of the Undying [PBE]
I don't think it should translate into actual AD or AP but rather into the actual proc damage. The proc damage should scale emphasizing that the longer a tank survives the fray, the more of a threat they slowly become (when in melee range).
: Possible Kleptomancy nerf suggestion
The rune has way too much reward and exploit for there not to be some added risk imo. Press the attack takes longer to activate since you need to auto 3 times to proc it and even at max attack speed and uninterrupted attacking, it won't activate in 1 second. Lethal tempo has a delayed activation of 1.5 seconds (off the top of my head, may be wrong lol). To me if you going to be rewarded with additional gold and buffs for harassing, it needs to be an additional effort. Champions who cannot commit to a trade for a mere 1 second are frankly exploiting the rune way too easily. The rune encourages additional engagement, at it's core. Players unwilling to commit a mere 1 second should not benefit thematically. Yes it straight nerf GP, Ezreal and iora i they do the non interactive Q and run poke style. But if they commit an additional auto.., their harass gets stronger, counterplay is more avail and they get rewarded for actually trying to trade/harass. On the counterplay thing, how you play vs lethal tempo or press the attack is you avoid extended trades. It's not a case where GP Qs you and it's too late, the rune has fully profited. The other rune that lacks counter play is aery.., she's too strong for how easy her proc is to access. And just so we are clear, early game on most champions, by the time you uninterruptedly auto attack twice..., more than a second has passed.
Rioter Comments
: DuskBlade of Draakthar Balance suggestion
Bump. This is a thematic long term fix suggestion
: DuskBlade of Draakthar Balance suggestion
There's a TL;DR. give feed back.
Rioter Comments
: Coming This Preseason: Runes Reforged
Just for clarity..., Is this essentially a removal of runes and rune pages and buffing the mastery page system? (i.e are all the runes unlocked automatically and available right away every champ select) Or do we have go and "purchase" the free runes prior to being able to use them?
: Champion winrate rarely has anything to do with balance. It's the sum of nth other factors that the average sheep intentionally overlooks. "How often does champion build X item? How often do they spec into Y mastery tree? How often do they take Z runes? How often are they picked against L character? How often are they picked with M character? What is the winrate with any of those? What is it without them?" When you isolate the numbers and look at them individually, you start to notice a pattern. Let's say for example, support character S typically builds non-support item L. Her winrate with L may be around 58%, yet item L's average winrate across all champions could be 65%. So S is actually underperforming with L, comparatively. However without L, S's winrate falls all the way down to 43%. Even if S's average winrate is something like 53%, that's solely because it's being artificially inflated by a blatantly overpowered item. Regardless of this fact, the bleating masses will still look solely at the sum 53% and ignore all of the contributing factors. It's truly sad and it makes me disheartened as somebody who enjoys math. Of course, that's just looking at 1 major factor in a specific case. There may also be other contributors like E or Sh and when these are isolated, S's winrate may even fall to an abysmal 28%. Rito's statistics team are the ones who are supposed to look at all of these and hand the findings over to "balance," but as a stats employee once told me, "Whether they actually listen to those numbers is a different story." We all know they do not.
> [{quoted}](name=Emmy Cha0s,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QYbcsz6I,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-03-20T22:30:32.200+0000) > > Champion winrate rarely has anything to do with balance. It's the sum of nth other factors that the average sheep intentionally overlooks. "How often does champion build X item? How often do they spec into Y mastery tree? How often do they take Z runes? How often are they picked against L character? How often are they picked with M character? What is the winrate with any of those? What is it without them?" > > When you isolate the numbers and look at them individually, you start to notice a pattern. Let's say for example, support character S typically builds non-support item L. Her winrate with L may be around 58%, yet item L's average winrate across all champions could be 65%. So S is actually underperforming with L, comparatively. However without L, S's winrate falls all the way down to 43%. > > Even if S's average winrate is something like 53%, that's solely because it's being artificially inflated by a blatantly overpowered item. Regardless of this fact, the bleating masses will still look solely at the sum 53% and ignore all of the contributing factors. It's truly sad and it makes me disheartened as somebody who enjoys math. > > Of course, that's just looking at 1 major factor in a specific case. There may also be other contributors like E or Sh and when these are isolated, S's winrate may even fall to an abysmal 28%. Rito's statistics team are the ones who are supposed to look at all of these and hand the findings over to "balance," but as a stats employee once told me, "Whether they actually listen to those numbers is a different story." We all know they do not. You raise several good points, particularly about itemisation when an item is over powered inflating win/loss rates. I think the community got a good example of this recently with the adc lethality craze the 1st comment reponse rants on. Win rate is affected by so many factors that I feel it shouldn't be quoted as to why a champion is OP or UP standalone anymore. It shouldn't be that reference statistic anymore, especially alone. I also feel Ban rate represents a much more widespread agreement of a champion being essentially too difficult to counter play against which to me is a key factor of when a champion is unhealthy balance wise. That said another issue comes to mind, some champs are banned based on the strategic meta in terms of compositions and itemisations favoring the champion rather than the kit being obscene. Different regions favor different metas and game lengths and some champions are designed to be stronger than others at certain stages of the game. In Korea I'd assume ban rates to be more early game oriented than NA bans since Koreans tend prefer faster paced games. So perhaps ban rate won't provide thee most accurate of indications to whether a champ is over powered but surely if a champ has been having consistently high ban rates even with rising and falling OPs.., perhaps they ought to be scrutinised. AN example is Vi in the jungle has had a consistently high ban rate for a while now which weathers meta changes.
iReApEzZz (EUNE)
: Yo dude, just go and play him, you will see why he is balanced and dont be like, ofc I will suck cause it will be my first time, you are silver right, try new things maybe adc is not your role, thats fine, I main him and my first game was 0-12 xD, so please try him you will see that he is so much weaker than you think
> [{quoted}](name=iReApEzZz,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bjJwZ0P1,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-03-20T22:56:26.574+0000) > > Yo dude, just go and play him, you will see why he is balanced and dont be like, ofc I will suck cause it will be my first time, you are silver right, try new things maybe adc is not your role, thats fine, I main him and my first game was 0-12 xD, so please try him you will see that he is so much weaker than you think I apologise but I'd hate for you to think I never Yasuo'd. I'm not a fan of playing manaless champs, have an ego that makes me feel like I'm cheesing and that i don't need the handicap. That said when he was 1st released I spammed the **** out of him. I'm a big fan of Japanese culture particularly the samurai system, that combined with one of my fave animes being avatar the last airbender.., I was hype for his release. I went custom games area and 1v1'ed any comers. Beat a few dime and plats. Went in normals and tested him, I failed alot but got hang of him and consider him a kind of pocket pick now, probably if i had 15 champs i was best at, he'd make that list. Most the Yasuos I meet in lane, particularly top lane i crush beyond recognition with my preferred top picks. That said..., i still think he's OP. Because of a combination of what I can do, what I've seen done and what I know the champ is capable of. Do not mistake this for a cry that this champ stomps me. If you read you'd notice all of my suggestions has the champ returning practically to the current Yas iteration by mid game. I'm suggesting a shift in power curve for one primary reason, his weakened/slowed early game would take him off the banned half of all ranked games pedestal. I think the champ concept is a good one but too much power is available to skilled players in the early stages of the game for a hyperscaling champion, he hasn't dipped significantly below banned in 1 every 3 games in months bro, possibly since inception.
: It's always part of the calculation, but perhaps not in a vacuum. I started playing in S2. From S2 through S5, it wasn't that unusual for tank junglers to have seemingly high winrates, but it wasn't because of the effects of an individual carrying, rather, an individual providing their team with the tools necessary to win. This obviously marks a hard line between teams who do and do not work together to obtain victory. In that respect, win rate is only useful when other factors are taken into consideration.
> [{quoted}](name=Incognonymous,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QYbcsz6I,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-03-20T21:23:17.605+0000) > > It's always part of the calculation, but perhaps not in a vacuum. I started playing in S2. From S2 through S5, it wasn't that unusual for tank junglers to have seemingly high winrates, but it wasn't because of the effects of an individual carrying, rather, an individual providing their team with the tools necessary to win. This obviously marks a hard line between teams who do and do not work together to obtain victory. In that respect, win rate is only useful when other factors are taken into consideration. This in particular is how I feel about win rate. It often means smarter or more team synergistic players tend to pick that champ and thus have higher win rates. Like Janna tends to have a high win rate, it's not high cuz she's OP and kills all the enemies and plows all the objectives. It's high because her skill set is designed to be selfless, so players less concerned for KDA and more concerned for their team winning tend to pick her. But again, I can't deny a buff or nerf tends to affect win rate a bit but for me a much more glaring out of balance indicator would be ban rate...,_ except in one particular instance_. When riot has already nerfed the champion sufficiently but the stigma of how overpowered they were lingers and they still attracts high ban rates. (I feel like this was the case for Old Kassadin in much of the latter stages prior to the soft rework. He had low scaling and quite small base damage compared to his peers even with stacked ult. Did the maths long ago for Fizz, Diana, LeBlanc, Swain, Talon, Karthus.., each outclassed Kassadin in both 4 second _burst_ and _15 second_ DPS. Then again the every ready flashes and the Q silence made counter play difficult in truth.)
: "bully ranged champs by destroying their projectiles at least once per minion wave" I wouldn't say bully for all ranged, more of completely nullify in some cases.
> [{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bjJwZ0P1,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-20T20:51:07.831+0000) > > "bully ranged champs by destroying their projectiles at least once per minion wave" > > I wouldn't say bully for all ranged, more of completely nullify in some cases. I'd argue most* cases. Not every single case is correct still :)
Rioter Comments
SirΤeemο (EUNE)
: How win rates lies to you
I'd agree that win rate is not the best gauge on a champion's balance, But I'd also argue that Ban rates are telling. There's a champ that had a 40% win rate, 7% pick rate and a 47.6% ban rate in patch 7.2. The champ didn't win a lot but..., people sure didn't want to play vs that champ because once you butt a good player on the champ, the game is already over. Think carefully on that, 40% win-rate and 47.6% ban rate. Win rate reflects how well PLAYERS of that champion exploit that champion. But ban rate is suggestive that players feel that CHAMPION is too difficult to counter play.
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