: Another worlds day another Kai'sa Aatrox, Urgot, Xayah, , tahm fiesta
literally used to be {{champion:122}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:150}} top lane every single worlds SEASON. not just one season, every worlds. Now the first time its different and people are upset XD. i dont get his community.
Rioter Comments
Antenora (EUW)
: Because most of the top laners I get put with end up going 0/3 within the first 5-10 minutes because they push like a bunch of apes.
I don't condone anyone giong 0/3 in the first 5 min of the game, but usually its not on purpose and so you shouldn't just ignore that player. It's like if the jg died a couple times, should the rest of the team not ever help them secure drag etc? No, its a team game. In fact, if your top laner is getting beat, its even more reason to help them and keep them from tilting (if even the only reason).
: Good junglers don't help losing lanes alone. Instead they should only gank losing lanes with additional teammates, and only if the enemy team can't respond.
More bad information imo. Ignoring a losing lane leaves that lane at higher risk of tilting or even leaving the game entirely. Players play better knowing their team is including them. ....and people wonder why there are so many afkers and so much toxicity.
Zetto (NA)
: Junglers tend to ignore top lane due to the fact that: 1: Top has less carry potential than mid/bot 2: bot lane generally serves as a better source of gold due to the fact that there are 2 champions to kill instead of 1 3: the only objective on topside is Rift herald, which isn't a concern for the first 10 minutes of the game, and is soloable by most junglers. Generally when it comes to rift herald it's more useful to have your laner stay in lane to try and keep the enemy top in lane. As a jungler top is really only useful as a more low-risk/low-reward source of gold, tbh.
Antenora (EUW)
: Let's be honest now.... Top Laner's don't decide Top Lane.... Junglers do. If you have something like {{champion:122}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:133}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:157}} as your top laner, ganking them early and getting the lane ahead can prove very beneficial for your team. Except for Darius and Quinn, All these champions scale extremely well with items. Getting Tanks like {{champion:36}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:516}} ahead just doesn't seem worth the effort to me. Tanks can just stonewall the lane. I'm not saying you shouldn't gank for a Tank but getting carry top laners ahead especially scaling ones like Fiora, Camille, Kayle and Tryndamere isn't a bad thing. I've early ganked for champions like {{champion:23}} {{champion:122}} in the past, got them first blood and they proceeded to take over the game.
Yet you see korean challengers ganking for tanks all the time. The idea is about opportunity and getting _yourself_ and your team ahead. When there is clear potential for ganks, a jg should take it for their _own_ gain. It gets them ahead. Refusing just because of what you said is just not ideal for any jg imo. I also think that's promoting bad/unhealthy information.
: As a Yi main, I'm not ganking an Ahri/Kassandin lane post 6 if you happen to be mid Ez or some cc-less laner. It's literally a waste of time that I could be using to counterjungle or farm for my items. I'm sure same goes for certain top laners, if you're a bit behind, I'm also not touching an Illaoi/Darius lane to feed them a double kill/double buff.
literally has nothing to do with top lane. Almost every top laner has cc and overall limited mobility. If you're not ganking illaoi or dar you also leave them the potential to bully lane freely and get fed anyway.
Lakega (NA)
: This is a good indication League is dieing..
And it will continue to die because Riot loves smurf accounts.
: Daily Reminder to Hold Riot Accountable
I mean... he's not wrong. Look at all the manbabies in this thread just crying away. XD Always funny seeing threads with the community just blatantly cool with bashing women with shit like "go make me a sandwich" and being so "savage" and shit. When the manbaby community gets savaged it's not as fun anymore, is it?
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Futurisztik,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2Wr0uE7v,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-03T06:59:44.808+0000) > > your a fucking an idiot if you think people wont goto worlds lmfao > #world2018 https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/64789141/hooked-on-phonics-clearly-didnt-work-for-you.jpg
> [{quoted}](name=VesperNadal,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2Wr0uE7v,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2018-09-03T07:09:21.870+0000) > > https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/64789141/hooked-on-phonics-clearly-didnt-work-for-you.jpg thanks for reminding me how old I am
: I just find it funny people hated Zoe worst, when she is basically a mirrior of Ahri. But Boobies and Fox tails AMIRITE?
: {{champion:103}} {{champion:201}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:119}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:222}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:13}}. None of them have PROJECT skins.
{{champion:92}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:13}} maybe {{champion:21}} are probably next in line. When it happens... remember I called it
: {{champion:103}} {{champion:64}} They dont have Project skins. Lee Sin especially. He's Riot's money boy.
: No you totally missed the point of my post and you're incredibly dense.
: Read my post. It's not really that long.
I've read it a few times just to make sure. You're saying that since Aatrox is popular in pro-play, he shouldn't get any buffs. I'm saying thats fucked up because outside of pro play he has a really shitty winrate. So, do you want Riot to balance based on pro play or not?
: Huh, Aatrox is getting buffed right before Worlds while he's one of the best champs in pro play?
Because he has a 46% winrate outside of pro play Do you want them to balance around pro play. Most of the community are against that.
: Crazy balance idea, limit certain champs from certain items
Or just limit them to roles Juggernaut Tank Assassin Mage Marksman etc.
: Yorick nerf compared to Garen nerf
the problem with low elo is I cant get a decent adc ever
Rioter Comments
: Now I'm concerned
This thread just proves how fucked this community is. Aatrox is obviously in a weird spot and nobody wants to say anything lol.
Rioter Comments
WardN (NA)
: Was the Aatrox rework successful or a failure?
It's his revive. I wish they had done seomthing different. I wish they'd innovated in that area and made that revive more conditional and less... polar. Its so goofy the way it is. His ult is just a steroid and maybe a revive which half the time means this: 1. You pop it early, nobody attacks you really, and you just got a lame steroid boost. Pobably didn't even get any kills because all his damage is partitioned and takes forever. 2. You popped it and got focused down really fast, lose your steroid, lose lots of fight potential and are bascially back to q'ing the rest of the fight. 3. You pop it too late in response to an enemy engage and your ult only delayed the innevitable. This revive had to go. They for some reason can't do anything about it other than nerfin his numbers and just making him a new ryze. It was obviously going to be an issue but they didn't care. Now: aatrox lacks lane sustain, overall sustain, defensive stats (cuz op ult), early game ability, late game ability.
: High noon Urgot looks unfinished
It's his R Issues 1. His body just opens up on ult. There are no particles or anything to signify it's a supernatural thing and there are no gears or parts to describe a mechanical effect... He just pops open. 2. The enemy isn't even pulled inside that area but are pulled at his metal part which is just confusing. Why is he opening up if they're just being bulled to a sharp piece on the outside of him? 3. The music the ult makes when he pulls them in is just... anti-climatic. I get that it's a train tune and all but the effect isn't right imo. 4. The chains during ult come from nowhere but are still metal chains. Nothing to signify they are hellish/supernatural chains. Fixes 1. Add either some ghastly hellish particles to show that his separation is supernatural or give him some mechanical parts to show its a mechanical effect. 2. Give a flame-thrower effect that spews at the point of retraction. 3. Maybe add some bass to that music or add more instruments to enhance its overall quality and effect. 4. Make firey particle balls their entrance point and maybe add dark/smokey particles to the chains to signify they are supernatural. The latter would actually suffice.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=TheDevice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T20:32:04.724+0000) > > You keep asking me more question but can't seem to answer the original one I asked you. Are you stalling? > > I'll even answer this one. I don't tell people I don't know to shut the fuck up. I only tell people I know (friends/ family) in an off-handed way. Maybe this is a case of realism vs online mentality. Perhaps you're not too accustomed to actual social interactions. I could be wrong. > > Anyway, and gain, can you tell me where I was being a tough guy? You seemed to be so sure of it earlier having a big laugh > > Yet now you seem reluctant, frightened even, to just answer that simple question. Whats wrong? You still never answered where I was being a "tough guy". Why should I answer you? Besides, look at all of our last posts and you tell me who has been throwing the underhanded insults and who hasn't. :) I just answered your question and my work here is done. If you don't see it then you need to really need some self-awareness. Good luck
> [{quoted}](name=Pandemic Punch,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T20:38:07.858+0000) > > You still never answered where I was being a "tough guy". Why should I answer you? Besides, look at all of our last posts and you tell me who has been throwing the underhanded insults and who hasn't. :) > > I just answered your question and my work here is done. If you don't see it then you need to really need some self-awareness. Good luck Great so you couldn't actually pinpoint exactly where I was being a tough guy but was so quick to say that I was. Well, I guess this is no surprise. >You still never answered where I was being a "tough guy". Well, that's 100% not true. I said exactly where you were being a tough guy. You just deny it. I've answered all the questions you've asked an yet you still can't draw out one quote of mine that proved I was being a "tough guy". So you're just gonna dodge and leave. Sounds good to me. If anything, this all really gives some insight into the general range of logic used by some in this community. Suppose my original concerns were not that unwarranted.
: > [{quoted}](name=TheDevice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T20:20:48.140+0000) > > Right, and me kicking somebody in the face isn't assault because I said so. > > You still haven't told me where I was being a tough guy. Are you afraid? Were you lying? Wait, so you have never told someone to shut the fuck up before without hostile intentions?
> [{quoted}](name=Pandemic Punch,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T20:25:12.633+0000) > > Wait, so you have never told someone to shut the fuck up before without hostile intentions? You keep asking me more questions but can't seem to answer the original one I asked you. Are you stalling? I'll even answer this one. I don't tell people I don't know to shut the fuck up. I only tell people I know (friends/ family) in an off-handed way. Maybe this is a case of realism vs online mentality. Perhaps you're not too accustomed to actual social interactions. I could be wrong. Anyway, and gain, can you tell me where I was being a tough guy? You seemed to be so sure of it earlier having a big laugh >Is it not ironic that you just used "tough guy" talk to someone you don't know on the internet? Especially when I didn't commit the act that you accuse me of? Hahahahahahaha Yet now you seem reluctant, frightened even, to just answer that simple question. Whats wrong?
: > [{quoted}](name=TheDevice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T20:14:50.962+0000) > > Already told you. When you told somebody to "shut the fuck up". Your turn. Already told you. That wasn't hostile, you read it as hostile. Try again.
> [{quoted}](name=Pandemic Punch,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T20:18:31.247+0000) > > Already told you. That wasn't hostile, you read it as hostile. Try again. Right, and me kicking somebody in the face isn't assault because I said so. You still haven't told me where I was being a tough guy. Are you afraid? Were you lying?
: > [{quoted}](name=TheDevice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T20:07:28.530+0000) > > Where was I being a tough guy? Explain You first. Where was I being the tough guy?
> [{quoted}](name=Pandemic Punch,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T20:14:01.822+0000) > > You first. Where was I being the tough guy? Already told you. When you told somebody to "shut the fuck up". Your turn.
: > [{quoted}](name=TheDevice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T19:46:03.111+0000) > > Because I'm weak? Maybe you're just weak if you have to resort to tough-guy talk on the internet. You just told somebody you don't know to shut the fuck up. Surely only the strongest of the strong say shit like that behind a screen. XD Joke Remember when you said I was being hostile for a non-hostile post? Is it not ironic that you just used "tough guy" talk to someone you don't know on the internet? Especially when I didn't commit the act that you accuse me of? Hahahahahahaha
> [{quoted}](name=Pandemic Punch,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T19:53:04.171+0000) > > Remember when you said I was being hostile for a non-hostile post? Is it not ironic that you just used "tough guy" talk to someone you don't know on the internet? Especially when I didn't commit the act that you accuse me of? Hahahahahahaha Where was I being a tough guy? Explain
SEKAI (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=TheDevice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-08-19T18:56:08.387+0000) > > I find funny how quickly this is dismissed by the community actually. If it _was_ just hearsay and rumors that would be one thing but there are testimonials of people who actually worked there. You can maybe say they're all lying for whatever reasons (not sure anyone can think of any reasons why they'd lie at this point) but the fact that there isn't even any concern actually kinda looks bad towards the games community as well. > > Sure, maybe the person who was trying to hire a woman was a bit misguided in a way but people do this _all. the. time._. People hire their friends, family, and people of similar race/religion. It happens all the time. This doesn't excuse the fact that there may be something wrong with riot internally. > > One wrong doesn't excuse another. This is a logical fallacy and just a greasy excuse to defend a company you might like or a game you might like. You might just want to defend it because gamergate has actually left a really bad aftertaste in the gaming community as a whole. Gamers are more brazenly quick to dismiss any kind of foul play when it comes to gender, almost to the point where actual evidence isn't even good enough. > > Btw, there is evidence, granted not "hard evidence" but shouldn't be this easily dismissed. It's a little frightening actually. If there is actually a case to be had, lawyers would be fighting each other to get a piece of that sweet big pie already. Imagine getting set for life from just 1 case, the "bad" lawyers can't get enough of it; and imagine resolving such blatant injustice in such a high profile company, the "good" lawyer would've been in action before you know it. Given there is only 1 article and basically nothing coming out of it afterwards so far, not even other outlets writing about it iirc, it is at least reasonable to assume that the article likely exaggerated the situation quite a bit; and that the issue if exists, is probably just the behaviour (or misbehaviour rather) of a couple individuals rather than specific about Riot's internal culture as claimed. But who knows.
> [{quoted}](name=SEKAI,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=00070002,timestamp=2018-08-19T19:38:16.389+0000) > > If there is actually a case to be had, lawyers would be fighting each other to get a piece of that sweet big pie already. Imagine getting set for life from just 1 case, the "bad" lawyers can't get enough of it; and imagine resolving such blatant injustice in such a high profile company, the "good" lawyer would've been in action before you know it. > > Given there is only 1 article and basically nothing coming out of it afterwards so far, not even other outlets writing about it iirc, it is at least reasonable to assume that the article likely exaggerated the situation quite a bit; and that the issue if exists, is probably just the behaviour (or misbehaviour rather) of a couple individuals rather than specific about Riot's internal culture as claimed. > > But who knows. Again, I've never made a claim that it was true 100%. Lawyers aren't going to attack a million dollar company who'll have top dollar attorney based on testimony alone. I'm saying that it _is still_ a testimony of several (albeit anonymous) people which may hold some truth to it. I just don't think ignoring it entirely is a fair way to respond to the article. That just seems to me more like what somebody in denial would do. It's the same as if somebody was making accusations about a friend or family member, your immediate response is to protect them. I mean have you worked for Riot? I haven't and I would assume nobody in this thread has either. If there was somebody who actually worked at riot, I'd listen to their side of the story rather than somebody who never worked there yet at the same time is utterly convinced the former employee is wrong. I'm not saying it's true, I just don't agree with how the community is so quick to take the side of a billion dollar giant company. Who can imagine the _possibility_ of a major company like that doing moral wrong. Whoever heard of such a thing? /sarcasm
: > [{quoted}](name=TheDevice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-08-19T19:30:51.836+0000) > > You are hostile as hell man. Chill. Nobody here is trying to hurt Trump ok? Calm down. You read it as hostile. Probably because you are weak. What does the president have to do with this??? I am not on the Left or the Right. Last person I voted for was Ron Paul. You calm down. Your post was more insulting than mine. ;)
> [{quoted}](name=Pandemic Punch,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T19:35:18.840+0000) > > You read it as hostile. Probably because you are weak. What does the president have to do with this??? I am not on the Left or the Right. Last person I voted for was Ron Paul. You calm down. Your post was more insulting than mine. > > ;) Because I'm weak? Maybe you're just weak if you have to resort to tough-guy talk on the internet. You just told somebody you don't know to shut the fuck up. Surely only the strongest of the strong say shit like that behind a screen. XD Joke
: > [{quoted}](name=TheDevice,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-08-19T18:46:40.954+0000) > > Wouldn't the women working at riot care? Or people who care about... other people? Stupid people believe everything they read on the internet and annoying people don't shut up about what they read.
> [{quoted}](name=IAintDarius,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-08-19T18:50:59.568+0000) > > Stupid people believe everything they read on the internet and annoying people don't shut up about what they read. Not saying you or anyone have to believe it. I can't even say for sure that I believe it but to dismiss it entirely is just not a fair response.
: > [{quoted}](name=00Nightwing,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-08-19T19:09:16.906+0000) > > These comments are really telling. I don't usually care much for the community but holy shit what's wrong with you all Maybe the fact that this has already been discussed at length when it originally came out, not to mention that a lot of people don't find kotaku as a reliable source, which also doesn't lend credibility to a story where all of their anecdotes are "unnamed female we'll call Lucy"
> [{quoted}](name=DotEleven,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-08-19T19:12:54.402+0000) > > Maybe the fact that this has already been discussed at length when it originally came out, not to mention that a lot of people don't find kotaku as a reliable source, which also doesn't lend credibility to a story where all of their anecdotes are "unnamed female we'll call Lucy" there may be a reason for the anonymity actually. If the persons were to give their name, other employers might be more hesitant to hire them in the future.
: So are people still silently passive about this? @Riot
I find funny how quickly this is dismissed by the community actually. If it _was_ just hearsay and rumors that would be one thing but there are testimonials of people who actually worked there. You can maybe say they're all lying for whatever reasons (not sure anyone can think of any reasons why they'd lie at this point) but the fact that there isn't even any concern actually kinda looks bad towards the games community as well. Sure, maybe the person who was trying to hire a woman was a bit misguided in a way but people do this _all. the. time._. People hire their friends, family, and people of similar race/religion. It happens all the time. This doesn't excuse the fact that there may be something wrong with riot internally. >when the article itself is sexist One wrong doesn't excuse another. This is a logical fallacy and just a greasy excuse to defend a company you might like or a game you might like. You might just want to defend it because gamergate has actually left a really bad aftertaste in the gaming community as a whole. Gamers are more brazenly quick to dismiss any kind of foul play when it comes to gender, almost to the point where actual evidence isn't even good enough. Btw, there is evidence, granted not "hard evidence" but shouldn't be this easily dismissed. It's a little frightening actually.
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18PbwYdjsps
> [{quoted}](name=IAintDarius,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ronWxA7t,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-08-19T18:18:56.059+0000) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18PbwYdjsps Wouldn't the women working at riot care? Or people who care about... other people?
: I spend more time sitting down in a single session at work, there's nothing wrong with spending an and hour or two sitting down playing two matches. Also, the issue with the 10 minute games isn't that they're super frequent, it's that they use to be mathematically impossible, aside from some crazy 5 TP cheese strats, and even then that was just an inhib, but now it's at least common enough it's no surprising to see it happen. The fact that the game has shifted to the point of that being not nearly as large of an outlier is the problem. You had 1 in the past 50, but I had probably 2 in 5000 prior to season 6.
Well im sure you will enjoy sitting for three hours for those 2 games.
Rioter Comments
: I Need to Talk About Aatrox
It wouldn't make sense for riot to please the "Aatrox main" with the recent rework. I think they were pleasing the fans of his concept and fantasy, not so much people who just enjoyed auto attacking. Also, they announced that he was getting "the largest rework of any champion in the game" a whole year prior to its release. Nobody seemed to complain then. In fact, it only caused more people to pick him up. More and more people started to play Aatrox after the original mains weren't satisfied with how Aatrox performed as a champion. He was a nightmare to balance and his kit played out more like an upside-down Tryndamere than an acton-pact warrior. stat-checky champions who also rely on autos have never really been a joy to play or play against for most players. IMO people latched on to his simplicity and his sleeper op state after his semi-reworks. Even though he became a powerhouse and was frequently picked even in the pro scene, not too many people played him because his style as champion was so unappealing. Also, if more people had actually started to play him, Riot would have just nerfed him into the dirt again; then nobody would play him. Instead, they just released his full rework. A lot of people who stopped playing him, like myself, did so because they knew he was getting (again) "the largest rework of any champion". This means you'd be mastering a champion that would eventually not exist in the game a year later. Honestly, it was difficult because I always liked Aatrox' theme and concept so I'd still pick him up from time to time. I'm far happier with his current state. It's actually a relief knowing Riot was able to capture the effect of a greatsword wielding demon.
: >Is he though? This is where I worry about what people view as "mobile". His "mobility" is restricted to an enemy champion. That's not really mobile. That's definitely a gap closer and sticking power, but not mobile. >Mobile is Garen, Riven, and Talon. These champions and some others are built to move around freely. Now I understand and agree with the idea you are trying to convey, but your actual point is wrong. Mobility, pure and simply, is the ability to move in a beneficial capacity beyond your normal base movespeed. Just because Maokai's W doesn't allow him to quickly and easily traverse the map doesn't mean it isn't still mobility. Also note everything else I said on the subject of Maokai; I was using him as an example of mobility that isn't oppressive or overtly punishing to others due to it's constraints, and pointed out that wasn't a huge offender. >So this is the point; mobility is simply part of a champion's overall kit and stats and is all dictated by a power budget. Mobility isn't something that's just given to whatever champion just to make that champion superior to champions without mobility. That would be insane. So when people talk about mobility, they completely leave out any context of the champion as a whole. That isn't because people are complaining about the _balance_ of a champion having mobility, but rather the issue that mobility in the game is rising. There is a big difference between something being balanced and being desirable/enjoyable to players on both sides. I will use the cliche example: There is a champion who, when picked, either makes your team instantly win or lose. 50/50 chance. Perfectly balanced. However most wouldn't enjoy it, which is where the complaints about mobility creep come in. It isn't about akali being balanced around having 4 total dashes in her kit; it is about the fact that it isn't enjoyable for many people to play a game where a champion has 4 dashes in the first place, regardless of their current strength. Originally League had very little mobility, and that caused very different strategies to develop than current tactics. This leaves old players who were playing during those days disappointed in the direction Riot has been taking with mobility. >I'm really surprised that in one paragraph you're able to mention these two things and not conclude that there is a reason why she has mobility. The reason I didn't mention the purpose for her mobility was because it wasn't the focus of the argument. As I clarified a moment ago in this response it isn't about why she has mobility, but rather the issue of her having so much and part of why that is painful to players. However for the sake of the argument let me cover the issue's that Katarina's mobility causes. First of all there is the fact that it is a blink, she can reset it 2 times quickly, can reset it every few seconds, and completely resets it and her ability to reset it on a kill/assist. As a squishy assassin mobility is her main tool to survive long enough to dish out her combo: However due to the lack of any delay on the actual casting of the ability, and despite it being targeted her ability to choose which side of the target she will land on, Katarina has complete control over whether a skillshot hits her so long as she has a target in range and sufficient reaction times. Specifically there is not a single linear skillshot in the game that Katarina cannot dodge if she is within range to shunpo to her target. Based on the animation of the champion Katarina can always know which direction the skillshot will travel, and thus jump to the opposite side of that champion. Hitting Katarina in this situation relies 100% on the Katarina's incompetence before any other factors come into play. Of course human error will always come into play, even at the highest level of play, but it is still a fact that shouldn't be ignored: Katarina cannot theoretically be hit with linear skillshots if she is in range to shunpo to you.* Now I don't think this is entirely an issue: After all, as an assassin Katarina does need the tools to close in and combo, and making it based on the player's skill and reflexes is a good way to do it. To me the issue is that she can keep doing it do to her plentiful resets. This leads to a huge missmatch depending on the opponent. If the opponent is an older champion without mobility who relies on skillshots they have no control over the situation: For them to ever be able to win in that situation requires them to rely on the opposition being worse. Mobility isn't a sin: However once mobility gains the benefit's of little to no delay and a fast travel time fighting against it ceases to be about skill and more about luck. If you look at someone like Ezreal though you can see that despite having a blink, the strongest form of basic mobility, it comes with a hefty delay, making it hard to use re-actively against fast projectiles without taking damage. In return it comes with the ability to travel despite CC, however the point is that it is much harder for an Ezreal to E out of a Veigar Q than for someone like Kat to. As more and more of these dashes with invulnerability, fast travel times, and low delays are added, all skillshot users suffer as a result, before it can be a "skill"shot it first has to go through a checklist of the opponent's CD's, ping, reaction time, and awareness before there is the possibility of it landing, because you can't hit someone who is traveling faster than your projectile. ---------------------------------------- That is why people complain about mobility creep: Not that the champions they blame are inherently unbalanced due to them having mobility, but because once mobility fits certain criteria it ceases to be interactive for opponents and just becomes oppressive to a while set of champions. Think about most of the champions that people complain about mobility with: Fiora, Akali, Lee Sin, Lucian, Camille, Ekko, Yasuo etc. Compared to some quite mobile champions that people don't complain about: Urgot, Kha'zix, Nautilus, Ornn, Kled, Gragas, Zac. Part of it does definitely have to do with their damage output, but a big part also has to do with the fact that, on average, the faster and shorter delay the dash/blink the more people complain about the champion's mobility.
>Mobility, pure and simply, is the ability to move Again, so we're back to a lot of champions who have movement speed. Here's the thing: You can't complain about all sorts of mobility in the game or that mobility is being added to the game while at the same time giving a pass to certain champions with mobility. You have to be more specific. You can't just say "mobility is increasing". Sure, it is, and mobility has always been in the game. You have to describe which champions and which kind of mobility you are upset about. If your point is _only_ that mobility has been on the rise, with no attachments to good or bad, nobody would disagree with you. It's when you make it a blanket statement that has a negative annotation attached that some people tend to not understand what you're arguing about because, again, you're actually defending certain champions types of mobility. You're trying to have it both ways. You're saying all mobility is mobility, mobility is bad, but some mobility is good and some is bad. So, what you have to do is describe, specifically what mobility is bad. Is {{champion:14}}'s new mobility toxic? Is {{champion:82}} mobility toxic? Are any of the champions you listed who got some ms in their kit now toxic because of their mobility? Again you literally listed a bunch of champions who's mobility I don't think you, me, or anyone for that matter, would describe as problematic... so why list them? If you say "No, but thats not the point, it's all mobility", then there really has become a disconnect from basic understanding. If you complain about mobility, it means there is something wrong with the mobility. If you're claiming there is mobiltiy, just for the sake of mobility but its sometimes a bad thing, then we can maybe agree or at least have a discussion. This isn't what most people are doing. They complain about specific types of mobiltiy that upsets them, then when discussing mobility creep they also include types of mobility that isn't toxic (which is what you've done). This is all just to trump-up their own defense against a type of play they disagree with or have a hard time playing against. >Mobility isn't a sin: However once mobility gains the benefit's of little to no delay and a fast travel time fighting against it ceases to be about skill and more about luck. I don't think that's a fair assessment at all. Has flash always been luck? No. Players have been able to pull off good flashes or predict enemy flashes. Very few champions have flash-like skills in their kit anyhow. The issue is there are some people who are better at reading movement than others in this game. >Katarina has complete control over whether a skillshot hits her Don't you think that might be the point? If she had no control over whether or not a skill shot hit her, she'd be a rather useless champion. This also goes back to the idea that there is purpose for the mobility. She doesn't have any _real_ team fight carry potential other than clean-up. If she's fed, she'll be really good at dealing with enemies out of position but while in a team situation, her threat level becomes far less potent. There is a trade-off again. While champions like Xerath, Ziggs and Lux can fire off skills safely from the backline, kat can't. She can't just run in and kill everyone; it would risk being cc'd and deleted. This is also why she is never picked in pro play. >Think about most of the champions that people complain about mobility with: Fiora, Akali, Lee Sin, Lucian, Camille, Ekko, Yasuo etc. Fiora, Akali, and Lee Sin are all rather old champions, especially lee and akali. Leblanc is also an older champ. I don't think these types of champions have been released in throngs, they've just continued to re-appear in future concepts. There hasn't been some kind of new emergence of fast escape artists, Riot has just kept them relevant in their game.
: Because their mobility is more simple, a lot of them just go in and out and is predictable. Ezreal, Hecarim, Leblancand Shaco (Maybe Jarvan if the meta had less damage) are the only ones who can really catch up to the newer champs. Garen only really has a major speedboost, making him mobile, but a lot of new champions have even more than that, on demand CC, invis frames, multiple dashes, heals, invisibility.
which newer champions are you talking about?
: Yes and no, it is the amount of their budget poured into the ability. For example a big part of Katarina's power budget is put into her mobility. It is also somewhat based on how the champion plays. For example Maokai is pretty damn mobile: A point and click dash that dodges abilities and roots the target on a fairly low CD. However because he doesn't burst people and it is fairly short ranged it is nowhere near as oppressive as someone like Kat, especially since Mao wont die to one or two abilities regardless: If you have to hit him 50 times to kill him then dodging 5 or so of those attacks over the course of the fight isn't as big of a deal as missing 1-2 abilities on a Katarina when that is all you need to kill her.
>For example Maokai is pretty damn mobile: Is he though? This is where I worry about what people view as "mobile". His "mobility" is restricted to an enemy champion. That's not really mobile. That's definitely a gap closer and sticking power, but not mobile. Mobile is Garen, Riven, and Talon. These champions and some others are built to move around freely. So this is the point; mobility is simply part of a champion's overall kit and stats and is all dictated by a power budget. Mobility isn't something that's just given to whatever champion just to make that champion superior to champions without mobility. **That would be insane**. So when people talk about mobility, they completely leave out any context of the champion as a whole. >it is nowhere near as oppressive as someone like Kat and >deal as missing 1-2 abilities on a Katarina when that is all you need to kill her I'm really surprised that in one paragraph you're able to mention these two things and not conclude that there is a reason why she has mobility. Kat isn't a tank, so kat has to use her mobility to succeed as an assassin (much like a lot of assassins) because, as you've just mentioned, you only need a couple hits to kill her. This is called a power budget. She's given more mobility because she lacks solid defense. Mao can take a bunch of punishment, kat can't. this means she needs something to help her fulfill her job by taking out low health targets. Since she's also a melee champion, she needs to have something to offset that as well as her low defensive stats. It's not exactly oppressive; its just some people have a harder time dealing with moving objects than others. She's meant to have better means of escaping because she has less ability to fight from afar unlike champions like Xerath, and less survivability against focus unlike Mao.
: Remove Evelynn from that list, she actually has a dash, empowered whiplash is actually a dash (and is also treated as an enhanced basic attack), though very short ranged.
Is that really a dash or just a gap closer? When people complain about dashes, it has to do with allowing them an easy escape or map mobility. Not sure this qualifies. Not sure what people are complaining about then. What _is it_ people consider mobility even? How is her gap closer in any way part of a mobility crisis? So its just any slight movement, no matter the context, all falls under mobility creep?
: I'm starting to wonder if the concept of an assassin is inherently bad for mobas. I think that in order to do their jobs properly they need tools and burst that makes them balance nightmares.
how would you ever kill a fed {{champion:119}} then? This sounds like marksman's wet dream
VanaQuish (EUNE)
: > comparable range Thats so false. Nowadays high range means close to nothing since almost every champ that has dash or blink has also a threat range (lets call this threat range, the radius where he can hurt you) that quite literally invalidates your range. For example, lets say im facing lb with my xerath, even if i keep my distance and her w doesnt damage me, she can still use her e or q (and then her ulti ofc) to deal me shittons of damage. Oh and then blink back. Now this shit is a bit unfair. I pay immobility and squishiness for range. Yet she can get close to me so fast AND still deal me a lot of dmg.
You sacrifice your lane power with that extremely long-range ult and long-range Q. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, I'm sure.
: Some of those reworks are quite old. I think people take into account more recent stuff. From the 8 latest champions pretty much {{champion:516}} is the only one that's more "grounded" Also mobility is not only how far a champion can get, but also how elusive they are in fights. {{champion:145}} {{champion:498}} {{champion:497}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:555}} {{champion:141}} ^ This goon squad is very effective at hit and run tactics, kiting and repositioning is no problem, and that can be pretty polarizing when they are against older champs like {{champion:30}} who needs the opponent to be close or have consistent movement to predict and land Q's Taric and Yoric were reworked when I still played before my LoL vacation, and that's a long time ago in the lifespan of an ever changing game, and to me it was really apparent that mobility has been greatly pushed in recent times.
I mean I don't disagree that mobility has been increased, but its not like its some epidemic. I mean is {{champion:20}} new enough? MS has always been in the game and was more the go-to for mobility in older champions. {{champion:86}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:51}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:17}} All have great mobility and are rather old champions. Why aren't they complained about? Or why hasn't there been the same disdain for them?
: I would say it depends on the strength, duration, CD, and reliability of their mobility. For example: Janna W passive is pretty useful in a general sense, and greatly rewards map awareness. However it isn't really strong mobility due to how weak the actual buff is. You can back off from ganks you see coming, but it doesn't help a ton if you get ganked unexpectedly. In comparison lets take Kennen for example. A medium CD ability, decent duration, high movespeed buff with some resistances tacked on. Not very good for roaming, but it is quite good for running away and chasing. So while Janna doesn't cause much mobility creep, Kennen does create some. Of course there are different levels of mobility creep too. Kennen doesn't cause anywhere near as much as, say, Yasuo. However he doesn't create none either. Mobility creep also applies to how they can be used. Lets take Volibear for example. His speed buff is greatly reduced if he isn't running towards an enemy. It is firmly shoved into being an engage ability rather than a roaming/escape tool. So just off of that it causes less creep than an otherwise equal movespeed buff. The ability to pass terrain is also a huge thing. For example though Ornn has a dash, it cannot pass through terrain, same with Kled (unless you hit a champion who does then go through terrain) As for dashes the distance, targeting, ability to pass through terrain, and rate of travel are all very impactful. For example lets look at Kayn vs Talon. They both have a short range dash and the ability to pass through terrain. However Kayn creates more mobility creep due to his Q not being targeted, making it far easier to pass through terrain with it. Their E's are pretty equal, with Talon's being spammable but with a per wall CD while Kayn's lets him sit inside walls for a while and transfer from wall to wall.
So basically it comes down to the power budget and the champion, not just them having MS or a dash, right?
wildfox99 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cA5H34Bs,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-15T18:44:53.141+0000) > > But {{champion:20}} did get a dash... > He can wall hop now. it's a bug > > {{champion:28}} got a dash too... > {{champion:41}} got movement speed. > {{champion:82}} got movement speed. > {{champion:14}} ulti added mobility. > {{champion:13}} got movement speed AND a teleport. except for GP don't tell me it feels bad to play against them (or at least that the reason is this kind of mobility),also {{champion:28}} needed so bad a disengage in her kit (anyway it's in her ult so it's not spammable)
This is why I asked if the mobility creep includes MS as much as it does dashes. Some people want to defend champions like Garen but bash others for their dashes. So, if we're clear, champions with any kind of MS are also considered part of the Mobility Creep frustration. Like {{champion:86}} {{champion:21}} {{champion:163}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:40}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:497}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:126}} I mean I can keep going. This includes older champions which means there has always been a good deal of mobility in the game. In fact, immobility has been more uncommon the majority of LoL existance. Again, so there's no confusion, _any_ kind of mobilty is what is the issue, is what you're saying.
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TheDevice

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