Meddler (NA)
: Yep. Infernal tends to be taken quite a bit more. Early Ocean's also pretty appealing in some circumstances. The others less so.
tbh, cloud just feels bad at all stages of the game imo.
: We've talked about this as a potential risk. Likely lever we'd pull back on is the ap values, but really there's a lot we can tune there to keep it from being a must buy in mid. Situational is fine, but not every game
it looks like it'll be an exceptional first buy on manaless midlaners due to it's cheap price. I can see Vlad, Akali, and Kat loving this as their first item.
Sparkle (NA)
: This is a great idea! I think helping out players who have taken a break from League understand what's up with their main when they come back is a good idea in general. EDIT: Maple thinks it's a good idea too <3
I actually love that idea, cuz I took a year long break a while back and when I came back, I basically felt like I never played the game at all cuz so much had changed. It was really discouraging tbh.
: > [{quoted}](name=RiotMadnessHeroo,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=AkdoqJg0,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-01-24T22:08:13.569+0000) > > I think it depends on the champion. While Marksman are in general the premier sustained damage class, I think the class is a lot more boring overall if we shoehorn them all into one strength/playpattern. Things are more fun when we have burst champions like Jhin/MF as counterpoints to the long range auto attackers like Tristana/Xayah. Sometimes there are outliers like Shiv IE Vayne, and we often to look to rectify those (the Vayne nerfs we just did lowering her AD from her Ult, as well as the previous change we made to Tumble that made the bonus AD not apply to her crits). I agree with you. I should have specified that people don't like it when champions have both burst AND sustained damage, and a lot of marksmen at the moment seem to be this way. In my opinion, it's the strength of a shiv proc that crits that is doing this.
no, it's being able to consistently crit 3 times in a row over 1.5-2 seconds dealing a grand total of 1800(unmitigated) damage that is causing an issue.
: I think it depends on the champion. While Marksman are in general the premier sustained damage class, I think the class is a lot more boring overall if we shoehorn them all into one strength/playpattern. Things are more fun when we have burst champions like Jhin/MF as counterpoints to the long range auto attackers like Tristana/Xayah. Sometimes there are outliers like Shiv IE Vayne, and we often to look to rectify those (the Vayne nerfs we just did lowering her AD from her Ult, as well as the previous change we made to Tumble that made the bonus AD not apply to her crits).
I'm sorry, but I disagree simply because presently _all_ ADC's have insane burst, easily being able to dish out 600 dmg per hit and averaging 1 hit every .5 - .75 seconds. Burst mages have to pay through the nose to get 1800 damage with high mana costs, long cd's and expensive items while ADC's can get the same amount of burst for less gold and more reliability (no skill shots) and far higher up time.
Rioter Comments
: It really just depends on who your playing. If its a bad match up though don't be afraid to give up farm and later on look too roam and split push if you have good wave clear because his is pretty bad, especially if he doesn't get sunfire cape. Also if your someone who can get it don't be afraid to buy a hexdrinker if you feel he has to much kill presure.
I generally llike to play AP tryn top. But got completely rekt by a kench cuz I've never laned vs him before.
: As some one who has played as and against {{champion:223}} top my tip would be to play some one with range farming and an escape and play safe early because he's one of the strongest early game duelists but falls of later compared to other tanks.
but what about when you pick before the kench got picked? how do you eek out a win from there?
: Oh, that was Old league, NEW™ League is a quick 25-30 minute game meant for more fun!
yeah. I understand yer being sarcastic, but I can't see how a 25 min game of league will _ever_ be _more_ fun than a 35-40 min game. If games finish faster, it means that no one has a chance to get a full build and _someone_ has snowballed out of control. The core fundamentals of league are not compatible with short games. And to get the average shorter than 35 min average means that excessive snowballing and damage output has to be high with long death timers for that to be possible.
Lawetz (EUW)
: I main Jax.
dude, c'mon man. no one like a necromancer. especially when it doesn't contribute to the conversation that's long been dead.
Xeref (NA)
: yeah late game hyper carries carreing early mid game untouchable by anything other than hard cc
right. the problem is vayne and other ADC's like her aren't supposed to come 'online' until at least 30-40 min into the game. but atm they're coming online around the 15 min mark and are obliterating everyone.
: > [{quoted}](name=Thryale,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cvnFHEOO,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-24T20:27:15.219+0000) > > but Zoe&#x27;s not a burst mage. she&#x27;s a poke mage with pick potential. Riot has confirmed that she is a burst mage.... They even said. We have a new "Burst mage" in the works when they showed the teaser for her with bubbles and shit. there is the link. Riot confirming she is a burst mage.
riot has been wrong about things in the past, and they are wrong about this now. Plain and simple. Zoe does not have a burst mage play style or spell cadence. she has a single high damage spell, a variable utility spell, and an unreliable CC spell. but what really separates her from other burst mages is that she doesn't 'unload' a rotation on her target, but instead snipes ppl from odd angles. Which is much more consistent with a poke mage/ranged assassin playstyle. Compared to an Annie or veigar who CC a target then unload 3 damaging abilities in short order for high burst in an attempt at securing the kill, Zoe _might_ CC her target, but doesn't have to in order to land her high damage poke. Zoe is much closer in design to old Nidalee, and old nid was a poke Mage with assassin like tendencies.
: > [{quoted}](name=Fisher No Chains,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cvnFHEOO,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-11-24T14:25:22.747+0000) > > Not trying to defend CertainlyT, but she’s far from release Zyra/Yasuo/Kalista level of OP and toxic tbh Exactly... i feel like this is the first time he has made a character with actual counterplay. None of the current burst mages outside of zoe seem to have much counterplay to their full burst once they land their cc. Zoe is the only burst mage that has a CC that can be countered even after it hits.
but Zoe's not a burst mage. she's a poke mage with pick potential.
: Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 7.23
well fudge, I missed the Q&A by a good 15 hours. But if any of ya'll are still up for chatting, can we talk about veigar for a bit? Presently veig's ult deals a wide spectrum of damage, from 300-600 dmg early game to a whopping 900-1800 dmg late game, thus making knowing _exactly_ how much damage his ult will do to individual targets _extremely_ frustrating to calculate on the fly. And when it's veigar's job to eliminate a single target as quickly and efficiently as possible, it becomes difficult to do so, as most time the veigar player will either waste a lot of potential damage on his ult or run the risk of not killing the target at all. I understand the point of execution abilities, but when a champ's end game fantasy is pressing the delete button on a single champ. Long story short, can we see about getting visual indicators for when a target can be killed by a veig ult? (soz for the rush, had to go earlier than planned)
: What about artillery mages then? I'd rather just add another, not remove comet.
what about artillery mages? at the range they're firing from, comet is highly unlikely to actually hit unless the target was cc'd.
: Doing either would just make it more like Aery, I'd rather increase the damage.
then maybe just remove comet, buff the dmg aery does, and add a new keystone for DOT mages.
: Right now they're trying to solidify Aery's place as more of an enchanter/supportive option by nerfing the damage, but comet still does very little damage.
reduce comet's CD or make it always hit, and it'd be great.
: > don't you think that might be why ppl are complaining about games being "too short"? That it's not the actual time the games last, but the fact that the early game is so impactful compared to the mid/late game that the players who enjoy playing late game champs are feeling marginalized presently. Well that's how the game is set up if you are stronger early you often have an easier time to get more gold and get further ahead and thus stronger later on in the game this is especially bad for melee champions who don't have a good way of farming from range and thus lose more CS or have to put themselves in risk of getting poked down or killed
yeah, but 3 or 4 years ago you could play veig or nasus and reasonably expect the game to last long enough for you to grow powerful enough to actually influence the course of the game. but atm, you can't reasonably expect that anymore.
: Thanks for the reply! My experience early on with Precision runes was that I started out running lethal tempo all the time for late game scaling, then realized that press the attack was giving me much more value during laning trades, so I guess I went through a similar thought process as you - the early game rune ended up feeling more impactful.
don't you think that might be why ppl are complaining about games being "too short"? That it's not the actual time the games last, but the fact that the early game is so impactful compared to the mid/late game that the players who enjoy playing late game champs are feeling marginalized presently.
: Because we don't get the same damage for building glass like we used to. So we should get something back for it, and in this case its tankiness.
yeah, even when I manage to get 1k+ AP with veig, my damage isn't nearly as impactful as it used to be what with how easy it is for my opponents to itemize defenses against me with little sacrifice to their dmg output. I mean, yes, I can still delete ppl that build glass cannon if they're stupid and walk into my stun (assuming nothing body blocks my Q of course)
: Mages need better magic pen item variety Mages need better early defense against AD item choices Mages need more CDR options Mages need something else to build out of lost chapter Mage itemization is so uninteresting and linear it's actually quite off putting
I disagree that we need _more_ CDR items. I disagree with riot that we need a lot of low CDR items. This is because it undermines what it means to be a mage in league. Mages are not (generally) sustained DPS like ADC's are. They are, again generally, burst damage with the focus of either chunking or deleting their targets with _*high*_ impact spells, not a barrage of low impact spells. (now, that's not saying you can't have a mage or two that explore that niche, but as a whole, that is not the primary focus of mages as a group) The fact that CDR has/is becoming so pervasive is causing riot to have to balance all the skills on a razor's edge and ultimately holding back on those awesome high impact moments because if/when every mage can easily get 30-45% cdr, they can easily become a balance nightmare.
: Considering the lowered orange BE amount and the growing number of posts on boards warning about them... idk man
yes, but you have to understand only a small small fraction of LoL players ever visit the forums. so the decrease in OE is just gonna lead those that don't visit the forums to subconsciously spending more on lootboxes.
: > [{quoted}](name=zecastar,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=rwFEZcUi,comment-id=00030000000000000001,timestamp=2017-11-17T18:41:50.493+0000) > > Please don&#x27;t buff Riven lol! she&#x27;s not weaker... see Viper. > > I don&#x27;t think Corki&#x27;s sleeper OP at all. In fact, he was one of the few midlaners who used to take a full MR glyphs page. It was very useful vs most matchups. For example, today I died vs Syndra in a situation I know for sure I&#x27;d have been OK with my full scaling HP and scaling MR page (~level 8). On the other hand, traditional AP mids only tended to have 3 MR glyphs because they wanted CDR. I know he&#x27;s supposed to be a scaling/farm lane early but he feels weaker than before till TF-Sorcs. > > He&#x27;s a well-known champion with a decent playrate and as lolalytics shows, he is simply mediocre atm. Even his late game winrate is only 50% despite him being an ADC and some expectation of indirect benefit for this patch. Corki&#x27;s always overrated because people see his damage and that&#x27;s a very visceral strength point. It&#x27;s similar to how people think Zed&#x27;s OP after he has some clean kills... ignoring that it&#x27;s literally all he can do and it only occurs in specific conditions. Getting blown up is very raw and quickly leads to complaints even if in fact, the said champion isn&#x27;t OP at all. I don&#x27;t even main mid but it&#x27;s frustrating that Corki has historically been overnerfed a lot nearly every year. Even when he was popular in pro play, his performance was nothing special. He wasn&#x27;t actually pick/ban - he tended to be the mid that was let through after priority bans like Syndra. Moreover, just like in SQ, he was highly overrated in competitive - as his simply average performance showed (and this is with comps. built to have extra CC/frontline to help him excel). > > As an ADC, Corki&#x27;s supposed to be strong late and yet I don&#x27;t think he truly outscales many of mids (Veigar, Anivia, Azir, Karthus, Kassadin, Cass, Malzahar, possibly even Annie etc.). Of course, as an ADC, if he is facing only a single target for an extended time, he probably would outdamge many mids but simply having more damage in that specific case is expected and isn&#x27;t about overall scaling. He&#x27;s also much more gold reliant than other mids since his kit has no CC or other contribution to teamfights. Those weaknesses are actually really significant even if more subtle (and people naturally think they deserve that situation since they made mid be behind). For example, an Anivia who is behind still has fantastic waveclear, can slow the enemy team, controls where they walk, can stun them etc. Corki can throw an R or two. He requires either decent gold or to be ahead of the game/have his rather telgraphed roams work out. > > I think Malzahar might still be a problem though. It&#x27;s not clear to me since again, it&#x27;s an easy champion to overrate because of his &quot;haha I killed you with RW&quot; feeling. I still detest facing Anivia more though. I&#x27;ll also say that I&#x27;m shocked Kassadin with Ultimate Hat isn&#x27;t performing any better. Anti assassin, high mobility champions tend to excel in squishy metas. AP Trist was similarly overrated. "OMG SHE 1 SHOT ME!!! SO OP!!!!!!" I wish Riot wouldn't listen to such clowns and make balance decisions off it. Although, in this case it was also very gimmicky and snowbally (not the most compelling gameplay). She basically hoped you didn't understand her level 3 damage (getting a kill most times - kind of like Talon did level 2) and that let her constantly stay in 1-shot territory. However, her CDs were pretty long so if she didn't get ahead enough to 1 shot, she'd be basically useless. Her waveclear was atrocious and her DPS was pathetic too. Her kit didn't offer anything else useful if behind either. She was actually a weak mid laner if people played vs her competently but people didn't want to deal with the "my mid's clueless and now Trist's just going to reset off our entire team and kill every lane" situation. Despite all the complaining, I doubt even her winrate was good. My point is that AP Trist was never OP objectively but damage, especially high burst, always makes people scream OP even if the champion they're facing is actually terrible overall.
not to mention _playing_ AP trist was super fun. I miss those times. :/
Dunal (EUW)
: I believe that Riot has mentioned a few times in the past that while her rework made her a lot more balanced (since the old one was intentionally left at a very low winrate because she was basically a ranged Morde with no real counterplay. Want to poke her down? Too bad, she gets stronger if you do that. Want to 100-0 her? Well you can't because of her heal/shield) it also made her lose anything that defined her or made her unique (outside of ulti). Karma's current kit is far too "safe". It's very functional and easy to balance, but rather bland and she really doesn't bring anything that another champion doesn't provide. Unlike say, her old W, which while ridiculously underpowered, was a unique/cool concept. These days, even her ulti is similar to Heimer/Rengar. Riot wants to give her an identity and a reason to pick her other than when her numbers are good/great. Personally, I feel that out of every champion in the game, an Invoker (Dota) inspired kit could really work for her, where she uses Mantra to transform her abilities over time (like choosing between the shield-bomb effect on RE, or choosing an AoE shield like now, or choosing a single bigger shield that reflects damage or something etc...). Far less extreme/varied than Invoker; all base abilities would be the same pre-6. But levelling her ulti could let her transform the mantra effects of each ability at LV6/11/16 in any order you choose. This pushes her further into the flexible/all-around support but in a much more interesting way. But that's just _one_ direction they could go with her. She has a lot of potential for an awesome kit. As my most played champion, I look forward to it.
definitely some interesting thoughts, tho I may not wholly agree on the old karma assessment, I can say it's not completely inaccurate either. I must say tho, I keep getting the sneaking suspicion that I was just never meant to play/enjoy league cuz ever facet of league I found 'enjoyable' has _always_ been deemed unbalanced/unfair and nerfed/removed. I always enjoy the abilities or work arounds that decrease interactivity and are generally considered 'cheese' strats. ( old AP trist, old veig, old karma, AP tryn, old AP janna {wave clearin with just 1 tornado ftw}, etc) ultimately, I enjoy consistency, and dislike anything that takes agency away from me (skill expression) and gives it to my opponent. (veig stun for example. it used to be an example of how good the veig player was. now it's an example of how _bad_ your opponents are)
: It happened around the same time {{item:3057}} lost the ap it used to give.
wait, sheen doesn't give AP anymore? geez, I've been outta the loop for too long :(
Meddler (NA)
: Karma work sometime next year's likely to be very gameplay focused. We'll be able to make changes to animations/spell effects/audio as needed for kit changes, but won't have that much scope for other work.
speaking of karma work, are you able to give us yer preliminary thoughts on her, and where you'd like to take her?
sugarcox (NA)
: Buff Teemo pls riot.{{champion:17}}
XD not sure if this was in jest, or earnest, but I will say, it would be nice if they gave a little power back to AP teemo's shrooms. It has been many a year since I've actually been afraid of a teemo shroom. atm they only tickle, really. :/
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 17
Hi meddler! Just wanna start by thanking you for dong these so frequently :) So, let's begin: First, why is it press the attack grants 12% dmg amp for your entire team on such a low low cooldown with (fairly) easy requirements, when Vlad, who's ult does the same thing, is on a significant CD _and_ has been the target of many nerfs just _because_ of how strong that effect was. (I understand the AoE nature of the ability is a factor, but even then...) Secondly, I've seen this brought up in the forums earlier this weak, but a lot of ppl are confused why comet has such a long cooldown which is inadvertantly giving Aery significantly more DPS for casters. Especially because comet is so unreliable with how easy it is for opponents to dodge. And finally, would you be willing to discuss veigar with me, even if just briefly? I've had my complaints about him in the past, (disliked turning Q into a skill shot, and how frustrating and worthless I feel now that I can't land his stun) but that's not what I want to discuss atm. Right now, I want to talk about veig's ult. Veig's ult has always had 1 job, to deliver that end game fantasy of removing 1 champ for a team fight, but currently (for the sake of 'balance') it deals more dmg as his opponents lose HP. I understand the concept of execute spells and the role they play, but when an ability like Veig's has a range of damage from 300-600 (early) or 900-1800 (late) it makes it _super_ unreliable at doing the one thing it exists to do: deleting it's target. I understand why it exists as it does, so I'm not going to hope for anything crazy like letting it only deal a flat average consistently (since I know riot dislikes consistency) but could you look into at least giving veig a visual indication of when his ult will actually kill his target, like other champs with executes get?
: I see why those complains make sense but now it feels that the ray is something necessary with the actual meta, or make the inhibs turrets do percentage max hp dmg only dealed if the target has a lot of armor or health at least to prevent some sieges without minions in which a tank tanks 3 turrets in a row
iirc, the lasers were only ever good at one thing: clearing minion waves more efficiently than the current system. They had hardly any real noticeable difference on actual champions due to how easily their dmg was reset and juggled by smart teams. I agree that as they stand now, towers are a joke, but going back to lasers won't solve our current crises, unfortunately. :/
Mhihnj (EUW)
: its now made from stinger, sheen and phage. They replaced Zeal with stinger
ew, that's not the 'trinity' I know or care about :(
: It's should be duly noted that Champions are the only thing(after the special BE shop goes away) that will be bought. From what you posted I can gather that the new BE system is a way for riot to make more money, and I don't blame Riot one bit. It's a smart business decision that will cause players to buy more champions with RP. The changes to the Orange essence however will definitely hurt Riot's hextech chest sales.
actually, it's a change that will cause more players to buy their lootboxes, as you can clearly see every major gaming industry is trying to move their revenue sources to lootboxes as fast as humanly possible because of how insanely lucrative they are since there are no governmental regulations (yet) on this highly predatory marketing strategy.
Slythion (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Declovone,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=krfkEMhT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-11-16T22:49:21.939+0000) > > Sword of the Divine as well, though it was AS only, not AD. > > But they were just bad items. They didn&#x27;t fit well into most builds. I miss Zephyr tbh, I feel like it could fit in several champion's builds in todays league. It's w/e though
zephyr was a cool concept that just fell flat due to crit being too valuable on adc's I did enjoy building it on teemo for those 40+ min games when I used to sell my boots for a 6th item XD
: Please yes. But also make it so it has the same unique passive name, just add a different effect. Because the first thing I think of is Teemo building hybrid, making him uncatchable. Rylai's Crystal Scepter, Black Cleaver, {new item}, and Move Quick Would seem really challenging. Love the item idea though! _Would want to add it as a build path to poke support champions to add more of a self-disengage with Frost Queen's Claim, so they have some potential to live if caught out._
why black cleaver tho?
: It's reasons like this why {{item:3078}} should have lost the 5% MS after they removed {{item:3086}} from the formula.
wait... what? what does triforce use now? why doesn't it require zeal anymore?
: ad champions are far superior than ap champs in almost every way and riot loves it
I miss the day when AD champs had AP ratios to keep them balanced. Ya know, since their AA's had a 1:1 AD ratio as it was anything more would've been excessive? No? oh, okay fine. I just miss playing AP trist. That was glorious rofl stomping ppl with her resetting jumps XD
: I don't think there's anything wrong with the support role itself, more the attitude people have towards it. The playerbase as a whole thinks of supports as a "ward bitch." or people yell at you when you get a kill because you "stole" it, even if you got the kill solo or did the most damage or it was an accident. Or when someone fucks up, especially an ADC, it's your fault, even if you're playing mechanically perfectly. The problem with the support role is that everyone blames the support for everything wrong in the game, NOT because of it's lack of currency. It should NOT be the support's fault you fat-fingered your flash. It is not the support's fault that you have 2 warding totems in your inventory. It is not the support's fault that you died across the map because you got outplayed. The playerbase is what's wrong with the support role. Not Riot.
aye, reminds me when I used to play old karma. Loved the champ. Loved taking her mid and building pure AP and blasting ppl with 400 dmg 3 sec CD Q's and 800 HP 5 sec duration 6 sec CD E's with 12 sec mantras all day. but even if I went 12/2/14 I'd still be blamed for ever single mistake the team made and would be blamed for the loss simply because I "played karma mid" Why? cuz karma is a support. anyone who doesn't play her support bot is a troll. oh, and if you play karma supp bot, yer a troll. because _everyone_ knows that karma supp is garbage (she scales with gold, and supps did not get gold back then. just lvl1 boots and wards) the community can really ruin things by being pretty pig-headed about things for sure.
Skorch (NA)
: But wait, wouldnt this actually incentivise assassins going resolve? Or even possibly bring tank assassins back in itself? If it becomes a keystone, it DEFINETLY will get a little bit of a stat-buff. I could 100% see the meta becoming resolve with Nullifying Orb, secondary anything else. Going mid, Starting Hexdrinker and THEN full lethality. Domination keystones are nice and all. But 2 full-power hexdrinkers against an annie or malzahar as a zed or talon sounds a bit terrifying.
but if that's the case, then it'd finally wake riot up and get them to nerf the actual problem: lethality/assassin tuning. Having nullifying orb as a keystone would actually feel pretty good, tbh. and yes, it should receive a stat buff for becoming a keystone. (I'd also suggest it being a normal shield instead of magic shield) that being said, if an assassin grabs null orb(as a keystone) then they are losing out on a lot of power from the other offensive keystones, making them less effective in early burst. (hopefully)
: False, there are various types of mages. Burst Mage, such as; {{champion:103}} {{champion:134}} Control Mage, such as; {{champion:34}} {{champion:99}} DPS Mage, such as; {{champion:268}} {{champion:90}}
eh, I'm hesitant to call ahri a burst mage, she's a weird hybrid between a poke/kite mage and a ranged assassin. Lux is more of a burst mage than ahri imo. but yeah, I agree with the general sentiment that there are various mages with various niches in how they distribute their damage. But despite where they fall, they are all still a DPS class with their primary goal being to dish out damage.
: I talked about this a little bit in another comment - allowing players to opt into waiting instead of autofilling can have a snowball effect on matchmaking times that we've seen before when we've tried experiments aimed at changing Autofill. Check this out! It's actually super interesting and was initially surprising to me.
yeah, I read that post after responding to this one. It's an interesting concept, and I can see the potential, but it's not a guarantee either. I mean, I still remember when riot first released the ability to pick yer lane, and it didn't have auto fill at all, and queue times never lasted more than 10-15 min for me (I picked top/mid or mid/top) often, the queue average was much closer to 2-5 min (tho my memory is fuzzy, so take those numbers with a grain of salt) what about this then. I know it might be a tad controversial as far as reception, but what about paying X amount of BE to protect your next game from auto fill? That way it will allow those who _really_ wanna play their selected role that role, while acting as an enough dis-incentive to help discourage that slippery slope of yours. (that, and there are some players with so much BE they don't know what to do with it all, a small BE sink like this wouldn't be a terrible idea)
: This comes up from time to time. A potential concern we have with this is that it could actually lead to players bullying other players by targeting them and saying things like, "we're losing because you suck at X position and got autofilled" and things like that. Not something I'd rule out for the reasons you mentioned, but worth noting.
aye, but also no way to know for certain without testing either ;)
: We view Autofill as a way to keep matchmaking time and game quality in a reasonable place. Players say fairly often that they're willing to wait as long as it takes to get one of their position preferences, but that actually carries some other problems. Let's say you opt to wait until one of your positions opens up. Let's also say we WOULD have autofilled you. So now, another player will be autofilled instead, increasing the Autofill percentage for players who don't opt to wait. Then, more players start to opt to wait because they don't want to get autofilled, which drives the percentage up even more. Eventually every player opts to wait and matchmaking times are high. This might sound kind of silly, but we actually saw this behavior when we tested veto, which was a feature that allowed players to say, "I'll play top or mid, but NOT jungle." We thought that would be a good way to give players more agency, but we eventually saw the system collapse because every player would veto support. It's a really interesting problem space - I'm definitely not convinced the current implementation of Autofill is optimal. I think there are probably designs that are better than what we have, but we haven't identified them quite yet.
I'll agree it's interesting, but has riot asked itself _why_ players don't want to play support? Like, despite constant support riot has been providing in recent years, players, as a majority, still avoid it. Do you think it has anything to do with how champs derive income? Since most income is largely minion dependent, and supports aren't allowed to participate in the bloodbath that is minion killing, and all the gold gen items in the world won't solve the fact that supp players can't get the visceral enjoyment of minion carnage.
: Yeah, that's an interesting one - knowing that you or someone else in the game got autofilled can definitely contribute to your perceptions of how the game is gonna turn out. Turns out we keep track of win rates when players are assigned their primary, secondary, or autofill. Predictably, players win most when they play their primary preference. Secondary is slightly less. Autofill win rates average somewhere around 49% or so - definitely not an automatic loss. In terms of loss of agency, a typical player gets autofilled 5% or less of the time, or roughly 1 in every 20 games. So there's a slight decrease in agency and probably a very slight decrease in game quality (if you're looking at it from the lens of win rate) to keep matchmaking times reasonable. Hope that helps!
okay, but how much of that data includes queue dodging and players getting reassigned roles? I've had numerous ranked games get queue dodged 1-2 times where the first and second time queue pops I'm in the role I selected, but the final time queue pops I'm stuck in an auto-filled role because league can't remember the position you were assigned the first time queue popped.
: Autofill is tricky. You're right, we should probably do more to make support a compelling position. That might not fix the problem though. The entire population of players isn't as homogeneous as it might seem at first. At some MMRs and times of day, we have more than enough supports in the system but not enough junglers or top laners. Position distribution also varies by region. {{champion:74}} ****Warning: we're about to get pretty technical.**** {{champion:74}} Strictly speaking, Autofill isn't the only solution to position starvation, but we believe it's the best one we have thought of so far given our goals. To understand why, we have to dig into the tradeoffs of matchmaking in general, which are matchmaking speed, player agency, and game quality. &nbsp; --- **Matchmaking Speed** How long does it take from the time you click Find Match to when we transport you to Summoner's Rift for an epic five-on-five clown fiesta. Sometimes we can improve this by optimizing our algorithm. **Player Agency** How much control we give you; position preferences fall into this bucket. Autofill also affects player agency - it means you don't get to play the thing you picked this game for some reason (which we'll get to shortly). **Game Quality** How competitive your games are. We want to match you with people of similar skill so both teams have a good shot at winning the game and it doesn't feel like a total stomp. --- The easiest way to talk about the tradeoffs among these is to look at game quality. If we wanted to make matchmaking as fast as possible, we might be ok with lower game quality. If we matched you with basically any other player, we could probably make matchmaking pretty fast. For League, we typically choose to optimize for high quality games, which means longer matchmaking time because there are fewer "compatible" people to match you with. So how is this related to Autofill? I mentioned above that Autofill is a lever we have that takes away some player agency. The position preference feature lets us give you more agency, but also makes the pool of compatible people smaller, so it comes with longer matchmaking time. Let's say we always wanted to give players their primary position. We could potentially do that, but we would likely need to trade game quality, matchmaking speed, or both. When we know there's high supply for both your first and second preferences at the moment, rather than putting you in lower-quality matches or making you wait for a long time (in some cases *very* long), we make the choice to trade some of your agency and assign you to a higher-demand position. This is probably WAY more than you ever wanted to know about why we have Autofill, but I hope it helps you understand how we look at the tradeoffs in matchmaking. We've talked about doing some long-form posts about our matchmaking system. If you guys are interested in knowing more, let us know!
but see, I'm perfectly okay waiting 10-15 min for queue to pop as long as I'm guaranteed to play in the position I selected. Shouldn't you at least give us the option to individually disable auto-fill if the individual is okay with higher queue times?
: > [{quoted}](name=Thryale,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AVPnMoEP,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-11-16T19:33:31.503+0000) > > rather, they should make nullifying orb a keystone in the defense tree, so that assassins can&#x27;t just splash into it and make mages worthless. And it&#x27;ll give the tanky guys that are struggling to stay alive in this heavy dmg meta some extra tankiness. and that would screw over pretty much everyone while making mages be broken pieces of garbage that will literally destroy everyone due to everything giving damage and very little things actually giving defensive stuff
oh, god forbid a _dps_ class like mages actually be able to do real damage for once. Soz, I forgot that ADC's and AD assassins were the only classes allowed to do dmg in league atm.
: A serious question, no flame or taunting. Did you ever fight a good diana? Or even an evelyn toward mid game? Because I can ASSURE you for playing them that I delete squishy between 0,5 and 1,3 second depending of how I am in the game. Evelyn mid/late game is ABSURD damage Wise, her empowered E while in stealth is one of the biggest nuke in the game. Diana is more stuff dépendent but a slightly ahead (and I mean this "SLIGHTLY", just one kill and one assist ahead) diana MURDER every squishy with the passion of a burning sun on an ice cream during august. Also, while Kat is not especially a "1 sec death" assassin, she is still extremely strong and a snowball monster. Let's not talk about Leblanc, Leblanc can still deal 80% of a squishy life in an easy trade with stuff and her damage input is obscene still. I feel AD assassin offense is just that they seem to scale easier than AP assassin and their early game is very often stronger (or just strong). But AP assassin are strong, the only one that seem truly delayed and 'weaker' for me is Fizz. .... But I am okay with Fizz never being viable and Fizz player rooting in the depth of the abyss WHERE THEY BELONG YOUGODDAMN "USE E" PLAYERRANDOMDODGEASS *inherent screaming*
yes, but assassin's aren't _supposed_ to have a strong early game, it's one of their inherent flaws of being an assassin, because it makes up for their burst power in the mid-late game. the fact that ad assassin's have such easy early games due to their itemization allowing for easier farming is what makes them such a menace when coupled with their powerful burst
: Diana is a diver, not an assassin (she has no reliable way out).
on top of the fact that riot has stated multiple times that they aren't happy with where diana is currently and plan on working on her eventually (to make her a either a diver or an assassin, not the weird hybrid she currently is)
KazKaz (OCE)
: Shadow Kayn can annihilate you in less than half a second* Same to Zed and Talon. The AD assassins have retained their burst and yet the APs are forced to suffer.
don't forget zix, jumping out of fog and obliterating you in 1 sec. the best part? if he fails, he stealths until his Q is off cd and tries again
: That's why i think they shouldn't have changed them, i don't know about the old days of league just played a game in s3 left it and came back in s5. But i don't know i just see this as problems that are not so hard to fix as i typed we have the pbe for a reason they could try to do some crazy stuff to turrets there and get feedback to see if they are heading towards the right direction, if not simply add what was planned and leave turrets for later. At least thats how i feel about these issues
well, there were ppl complaining that the lasers weren't doing enough damage, and that they felt too forgiving for aggro juggling. at least, those were common complaints I remember at the time. it's been a while
k wìx (NA)
: Would feel extremely inconsistent with what I expect from 'Sorcery' It would also make the talent into a 'must pick' defensive talent in Sorcery - it would be completely broken. Instead... Nullifying Orb should be in the defense tree, and should replace the garbage 5 MR Talent. We should get a completely new armor talent, something thats potent at the START of the game, rather than the end.
rather, they should make nullifying orb a keystone in the defense tree, so that assassins can't just splash into it and make mages worthless. And it'll give the tanky guys that are struggling to stay alive in this heavy dmg meta some extra tankiness.
: I still don't understand why you made inhib and nexus turrets weaker by changing the ray to a proyectile, it made it harder to defend against tanks and super minions, you are doing what you said that shouldn't happen, you have to buff turrets then minions and then champions for an endless cycle of buffs, this doesn't make sense at all. Is like when stoneplate came out and made cho'gath op, for what is the pbe then apart from trying to prevent this type of thing from happening? Every time i hear that the pbe is only for testing skins i believe it more and more when things like this happen
the ray used to be the self same projectile back in the early days of league, and no one complained about them being too weak back then. Power creep has just gotten insane is all. (along with riot actually weakening all towers over the course of the game)
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