Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=ThurgotOfThunder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k3ovzlI6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-02-12T18:06:53.786+0000) > > I think point-click cc is cancer to a huge majority of melee champs, but also totally necessary to be able to even deal with things like Vayne, Riven, or Yasuo. I actually think point and click CC is much better than line skill shot based CC, and here's why: - Point and click CC does not differentiate between a ranged opponent and a melee opponent. Both are going to get hit, which reduces the bias towards ranged champions. Of course, melee-ranged point and click CC (Leona Q, as an example) is still biased to ranged champions. - By contrast, line skill shot based CC is considerably more difficult to dodge as a melee champion compared to a range champion simply in virtue of having less reaction time to sidestep out of the way. The best CC is either: - Ranged point and click. Reserved for less impactful CCs that are short and/or soft, and for ultimates, because they're ultimate. - Ground-targeted CC. Still interactive for both parties, but doesn't bias ranged champions. - Instant-travel pass-through line CC. Interactive for both parties, but doesn't bias ranged champions. I still believe that LOL has a massive over-abundance on CC, with most champions having access to CC (most have hard CC, or it sure feels like it), and have high access to CDR to spam CC. Of most of the CC, most of it biases ranged champions, and makes it much harder for melees.
Every game I have to play vs a Vayne or Yasuo I dream of having picked Maokai. Being able to not only lock them down FOR SURE, but also reposition them even slightly afterwards makes such a huge difference. Overall, I think cc that is either telegraphed in an aoe, or somehow conditional (whether based on travel distance, tenacity, etc.) is healthiest. Don't punish the people that should be able, and want to, tank cc for their team by stunlocking them for 5 seconds while they're "Burst per second"-ed.
Rioter Comments
: There's a lot of champions whose function depends wholly upon CDR and so removing it would necessitate baking a portion of the lost CDR back into their kit. Kass is a good example of this. This is kind of a massive undertaking because it's hard to quantify what is a proper and improper compensation for the removal of CDR, and it is also hard to determine what gameplay patterns have CDR as an integral element (i.e. in reference back to Kass, a point could be made that he's healthier with a 2 second CD on his ult and more damage rather than the ~.7 second CD that he can get now on it). You brought up Riven, but there's very likely someone who thinks that Riven would be unsatisfying and unable to execute her standard gameplay pattern if CDR was removed. Likely, the bloat of this stat is due to the gratification of being able to use abilities so often.
> [{quoted}](name=thinking man,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-02-13T16:04:46.582+0000) > > There's a lot of champions whose function depends wholly upon CDR and so removing it would necessitate baking a portion of the lost CDR back into their kit. Kass is a good example of this. > > This is kind of a massive undertaking because it's hard to quantify what is a proper and improper compensation for the removal of CDR, and it is also hard to determine what gameplay patterns have CDR as an integral element (i.e. in reference back to Kass, a point could be made that he's healthier with a 2 second CD on his ult and more damage rather than the ~.7 second CD that he can get now on it). You brought up Riven, but there's very likely someone who thinks that Riven would be unsatisfying and unable to execute her standard gameplay pattern if CDR was removed. Likely, the bloat of this stat is due to the gratification of being able to use abilities so often. They only depend on CDR because it's so easy to get now. I guarantee they could make abilities FEEL better and be more impactful if they were being flung out every 2 seconds 14 minutes into the game. The gratification of using an ability should be balanced against the gratification of being able to outplay that ability, and as it stands that's extremely hard to do against way too many characters, because they can spam so hard for so long.
: There are some pretty cool heroes and their ability system is a nice touch and adds some variety it's a great addition to the moba genre
> [{quoted}](name=TheRiddum,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rjBREmTE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-13T06:16:38.231+0000) > > There are some pretty cool heroes and their ability system is a nice touch and adds some variety it's a great addition to the moba genre I like that there are no broken items, so each champ can be tuned individually
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=ThurgotOfThunder,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2018-02-13T05:58:49.526+0000) > > I don't think attack speed, really, is the problem. Crit is a problem, but especially for Kog, the problem is the shields and heals he gets so often. Kog lulu is probably the least fun thing to play against simply because her ult is always up, and her shield is always on him. It's insane how often supports can toss out these huge shields that also give damage effects to their carries. Critical strikes are only a problem if they're happening too frequently. Most of the critical strike items happen to come with a stat that increases the frequency of basic attacks, and thus the frequency of critical strikes. Not to mention all the on-hit effects available, and the gigantic amount of AS Guinsoo's grants _(which goes hand in hand with Varus's passive giving him more AS based on his bonus AS...)_ Also, tank supports are doing well all-around, so it's not like Lulu/Janna are currently dominating the game.
> [{quoted}](name=Tèrminus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2018-02-13T06:02:44.948+0000) > > Critical strikes are only a problem if they're happening too frequently. Most of the critical strike items happen to come with a stat that increases the frequency of basic attacks, and thus the frequency of critical strikes. Not to mention all the on-hit effects available, and the gigantic amount of AS Guinsoo's grants _(which goes hand in hand with Varus's passive giving him more AS based on his bonus AS...)_ > > Also, tank supports are doing well all-around, so it's not like Lulu/Janna are currently dominating the game. I think Crit is just a mess, personally. But Varus is kind of a special case, because the attack speed isn't really the problem, it's Guinsoo's passive. The double on-hit is insane on a select few champs and that's it, so it's hard to justify nerfing guinsoo's when it's only effective on a few champs and trash on everyone else.
: Are we including Attack Speed in this? Attack Speed is basically auto-attack CDR, after all, and we have an abundance of that causing problems too. It compounds the problem of critical strikes spiking too early, and even non-crit AS-based ADCs are strong _(Varus, Kog before his last nerf completely dumpstered him for some inexplicable reason)_.
> [{quoted}](name=Tèrminus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-02-13T05:56:38.894+0000) > > Are we including Attack Speed in this? > > Attack Speed is basically auto-attack CDR, after all, and we have an abundance of that causing problems too. It compounds the problem of critical strikes spiking too early, and even non-crit AS-based ADCs are strong _(Varus, Kog before his last nerf completely dumpstered him for some inexplicable reason)_. I don't think attack speed, really, is the problem. Crit is a problem, but especially for Kog, the problem is the shields and heals he gets so often. Kog lulu is probably the least fun thing to play against simply because her ult is always up, and her shield is always on him. It's insane how often supports can toss out these huge shields that also give damage effects to their carries.
Vacus (NA)
: CDR is part of the general problem, which is the constant push towards twitch-based gameplay and away from tactical gameplay, in terms of champion abilities and design. (Not that macro isn't important. Macro is very important. It's a different skill than what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is more like 'should I go for the shot with this 20 second cooldown skill, or wait till an ally sets it up and it's guaranteed?') Champion abilities over the years are more and more twitch-based. Telegraphed zones, skillshots, mobility, everything emphasizes fast reactions and quick play. CDR makes this even more of the same, by making all of these skills come out more and more often, and the speed of gameplay increases even more.
> [{quoted}](name=Vacus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-02-13T05:39:23.044+0000) > > CDR is part of the general problem, which is the constant push towards twitch-based gameplay and away from tactical gameplay, in terms of champion abilities and design. > > (Not that macro isn't important. Macro is very important. It's a different skill than what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is more like 'should I go for the shot with this 20 second cooldown skill, or wait till an ally sets it up and it's guaranteed?') > > Champion abilities over the years are more and more twitch-based. Telegraphed zones, skillshots, mobility, everything emphasizes fast reactions and quick play. CDR makes this even more of the same, by making all of these skills come out more and more often, and the speed of gameplay increases even more. That's what I'm saying. CDR creep influences every other type of -----creep in the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=ThurgotOfThunder,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-02-13T05:05:24.613+0000) > > Is it a bold claim to say that damage creep, mobility creep, shield creep, and the disappearance of a laning phase can all be attributed to CDR being available so early for so little? More cdr means more abilities, means more dashes, means more damage, means more shields, means it's more efficient to group up earlier and spam all your abilities together sooner. Beats me. I don't have it all figured out. I'm a little skeptical though.
> [{quoted}](name=The MechE,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2018-02-13T05:10:09.080+0000) > > Beats me. I don't have it all figured out. I'm a little skeptical though. I mean, you can't tell me that having more cdr available doesn't mean more damage and more mobility. That's literally a cause effect relationship.
: That's a bold claim OP Sensationalism gets the views though
> [{quoted}](name=The MechE,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-02-13T05:02:28.466+0000) > > That's a bold claim OP > > Sensationalism gets the views though Is it a bold claim to say that damage creep, mobility creep, shield creep, and the disappearance of a laning phase can all be attributed to CDR being available so early for so little? More cdr means more abilities, means more dashes, means more damage, means more shields, means it's more efficient to group up earlier and spam all your abilities together sooner.
Squey (NA)
: mmm no. Some champs are complete trash with out cdr like lux. Cdr doesnt solve the biggest issue in the game like adc's. Mages are the most balanced ( in general) class in league and this would effect them the most. The worst mages dont need cdr to be rediculous. (zigs, ryze, cass, azir, xerath. The biggest issues in the game have nothing to do with cdr honestly. Damage on the other hand is an issue.
> [{quoted}](name=Squey,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-02-13T04:58:04.976+0000) > > mmm no. Some champs are complete trash with out cdr like lux. > Cdr doesnt solve the biggest issue in the game like adc's. > Mages are the most balanced ( in general) class in league and this would effect them the most. > The worst mages dont need cdr to be rediculous. (zigs, ryze, cass, azir, xerath. > The biggest issues in the game have nothing to do with cdr honestly. > > Damage on the other hand is an issue. Mages aren't the one abusing cdr, and I agree they're the ones who should have it, albeit not SO early in the game. This is more aimed at the cdr that's been tacked onto everyone elses itemization slowly over the last few years. It's too easy to get a lot, and get it early
Raiyza (NA)
: The problem is that there is no tradeoff. Fucking Sheen gives 10% now. Like what the fuck. It should be "Do I want to spam my abilities or do I want my abilities to hit harder....?"
> [{quoted}](name=Raiyza,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-02-13T04:40:15.492+0000) > > The problem is that there is no tradeoff. Fucking Sheen gives 10% now. Like what the fuck. > > It should be "Do I want to spam my abilities or do I want my abilities to hit harder....?" That's what I'm saying. You should have to Spec into cdr, and there should be a tradeoff for that
Rioter Comments
: Totally agree. I was watching a stream earlier, the first items the enemy vladimir built were Lucidity, Kindlegem and Fiendish Codex. 30% fucking cdr for 2.6k gold. >However, the problem is, the defenses (generally) that it bolsters, are extremely powerful, or abilities that SHOULD be gated by long periods of inactivity. You said it. It doesn't matter if you miss your charm, binding or hook because it'll be up in 5 seconds due to cdr being so powercreeped. Either get rid of the CDR on 600~1200 items or cap the maximum cdr from a single item to 10%, because it shouldn't be a priority for EVERY champion to rush cdr.
Yeah, it sucks to play against too, because sometimes even on the first back like you said, you basically lose your window of opportunity to engage on some champs.
Rester (NA)
: Not gonna lie, I was thinking about this the other day. When Dota 2 introduced cdr everyone lost their shit, but it was only tied to one item almost always specifically for mages and capped it at around 15 or 20% and that was it. It wasn't stackable either. Might have a bit more fun if cdr was toned down to 25-30% But a lot of people are gonna throw shitfits for sure.
> [{quoted}](name=Rester,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-02-13T00:49:11.242+0000) > > Not gonna lie, I was thinking about this the other day. When Dota 2 introduced cdr everyone lost their shit, but it was only tied to one item almost always specifically for mages and capped it at around 15 or 20% and that was it. It wasn't stackable either. > > Might have a bit more fun if cdr was toned down to 25-30% But a lot of people are gonna throw shitfits for sure. I think if they took every 10% cdr and made it 5%, and took every 20% cdr and made it 10%, that would be fine. it scales down how early you can stack so much cdr while still leaving the option to BUILD INTO it, because it's a stat like AD, AP, MR, etc. If you want a cdr build, fine, but you should have to pay for that.
: FIx: remove CDR from Kindlegem and remove boots of lucidity Edit: Since so many people are getting triggered, let me explain this comment. Kindlegem is an 800 gold CDR item that basically any tank or fighter can build early on. It builds into items like Warmogs, Black Cleaver, Spirit Visage. Tank items shouldn't even have CDR, because there's literally no reason for them to. Boots of lucidity aren't really a big problem I guess, but I don't think there should be boots with CDR. The main fix for CDR is to remove mana from CDR items because then people can't spam abilities as much.
> [{quoted}](name=Toxicate13,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OPBeExfG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-13T00:48:57.774+0000) > > FIx: remove CDR from Kindlegem and remove boots of lucidity I don't hardly ever see boots of lucidity. However, I do think that there are too many items that give too much cdr too early in the game.
: My points about Morgana apply to most champions. Youre arguing that CC/self-peel should be nerfed (essentially) but you havent provided any reasons as to why. Let me help you: I claim that CC as it currently exists in the game is fine and healthy. Your evidence to the contrary is...?
I mean, self-peel is a problem for a lot of classes. It's the reason Vayne and Tristana are so hard to balance, as well as why a lot of melee champs feel like garbage into most matchups. Self-peel would still exist, by the way, the idea is to make it less potent the closer your enemy is to you. Peel implies keeping people away from you. So keep them AWAY from you.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=ThurgotOfThunder,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ROWATVEy,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-02-12T21:49:21.819+0000) > > But... why do they need to compensate for their only inherent weakness- being slow, and getting caught? Because it's rarely enough move speed to actually cover the weakness defensively. And what about assassins rushing Youmuu's and using the active to be on top of you before you can get to your turret and bursting you before you can get more than 2 autos off?
Why do they need to cover their weaknesses? Shouldn't their ability to crit you from 500+ range twice a second make it so they have to make a tradeoff? Sure, you can melt the entire team BUT you also get to be faster than the entire enemy team lul outplayed. In all seriousness, playing an assassin into a lot of adc's feels really bad, because even if you do a good job and get on them, you're going to catch a tornado/polymorph/bubble/500 hp shield on a 3 second cd and die. Also, Youmuu's is an active, and you have to decide when you're going to get that 6 seconds of movespeed.
: > [{quoted}](name=ThurgotOfThunder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k3ovzlI6,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-12T18:53:33.022+0000) > > > > If a Yasuo dashed onto Morgana, he's going to get snared, puddled, and she'll walk away. So? Why is this a problem? Why is it a problem that Xin Zhao cannot easily stick to her? She's not a carry, it's not like you have to kill her quickly or else she'll wipe your team. Your concerns are lacking a logical premises.
Again, Morgana was one example among many possible changes. I didn't say every skillshot cc MUST BE CHANGED, but that it as a mechanic is underused.
Ifneth (NA)
: 1) Lore and gameplay should be consistent. For example, why would all snare spells of all champions pick up power? It’s pretty game-y. Also, CC duration is important for high elo and competitive play, where layering crowd control is important. 2) I see what you mean, but were crowd control spells to need distance to ‘charge up,’ they would become unreliable because mages would have to choose between landing a charged spell at a distance but having a high chance of missing, or landing an uncharged spell up close but having it do little. Also, once any diver would reach the backline, the mage would be helpless to stop them. The hard work of diving includes waiting for important defensive cooldowns like Morg Q. 3) All knock-backs are knock-ups with a displacement, and Alistar can stun you for two seconds only if you walk right into him. Only Morgana, whose whole kit is built around a slow but powerful snare, can root you for three seconds, and only at rank 5 of her dark binding. These champs are meant to disengage. You shouldn’t dive on them unless they’ve used their spells.
I'm not saying it has to be every CC in the game, nor that Morgana specifically is the biggest threat in the world. I just think it's a mechanic that is underused that could offer some return of satisfaction for melee champs that are hamstrung by cc that can't miss.
ADC Bard (NA)
: {{item:3031}} {{item:3508}} {{item:1051}} {{item:1018}} {{champion:432}}
> [{quoted}](name=ADC Bard,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ROWATVEy,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-02-12T21:12:10.961+0000) > > {{item:3031}} {{item:3508}} {{item:1051}} {{item:1018}} > > {{champion:432}} brawlers glove builds into zeal- movespeed. no one buys both I.E. and Bloothirster. No one buys Bloothirster. Odds are, you're going to have at least two zeal items on your build as an adc.
: Its part of the intended adc power curve Theyre given low base ms that the zeal items compensate for later into the game
> [{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ROWATVEy,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-02-12T20:58:36.344+0000) > > Its part of the intended adc power curve > Theyre given low base ms that the zeal items compensate for later into the game But... why do they need to compensate for their only inherent weakness- being slow, and getting caught?
: I understand where you're coming from. My contention is that Morgana, specifically, is a bad example. I think ranged champions with powerful mobility _and_ powerful knockbacks ({{champion:18}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:268}} ) are a far more egregious problem. I was focusing on Morgana because I have enough familiarity playing as her to comment, but I don't hate the idea as a whole - I just think it doesn't make sense on specifically Morgana.
I agree, especially with those three. Just seeing their pictures together makes me want to eat glass. And it wouldn't have to be all skillshot cc's, just some of them. It only exists in a couple examples, but it does exist, so clearly someone at Riot thought about it for Xerath.
: It's a decent thought, but I think all that would do is make him feast or famine. If he's that dependent on soul frags, it punishes you for even using ult in many ways. I'm not sure that's a better way to handle it. If Swain is weak, they should find some simple buffs; I think the kit has enough nuance and complexity as is.
I think it's less feast or famine and more of a sense of ramping power. It's not hard to get to 5 soul frags, especially later in the game when your whole team is wandering around dropping cc everywhere. Once you're at 5, you're MOST dangerous, and everyone should stay out of melee range from your Q. Then, a teamfight breaks out, you drop some empowered Q's, ult, 5 shard nova, and start over, rebuilding your power from the bottom until you're ready to murder everything again.
: Is there a reason Crit is tied to movespeed?
Out of combat movespeed is way less toxic because you're not kiting out of combat. And yeah, it does help with kiting, but range and the ability to kite is an inherent advantage. MF can drop make it rain to slow you, plus having her own movespeed boost. Twitch can do the same. Ashe is a slow bot. Vayne lol. Tristana, also lol. Most ranged champs already have the inherent ability to dominate melee champs, particularly immobile ones, so why do they also get that extra 100-200 movespeed on top of it?
: {{champion:22}} R also works like this. That's why it's not always a dumb idea to take a shot from "downtown", and why it can be a waste to ult in an escape attempt when you should just eat it and save your cooldown.
Good call, I don't know why I didn't think of Ashe for an example.
Ifneth (NA)
: That’s a really cool idea. Here are some questions: 1) Why would a crowd control spell be stronger the further it came from? The lore and game design would need a change to make this fact intuitive. 2) How would we keep the mage crowd control fantasy? Stopping a mighty Juggernaut or Vanguard during a skirmish or teamfight is part of why people play mages. 3) How would we adjust for unusual crowd control? Taliyah, for example, has a knockup rather than a root or stun.
1- As it travels it picks up power? Really lore has nothing to do with CC impact at all. 2- Stop them where you're meant to stop them, waaaay out there away from your team instead of waiting until they're inside you to push Q and spam laugh while all their hard work is torn down. Land your cc at distance, receive gameplay fantasy. 3- I think boops and knockBACKS are fine, generally. They usually don't last for 3 seconds, and are necessary to be able to peel some champs, which is fine. Taliyah doesn't knock you into the air for 2 seconds like Alistar does, she pushes you, and you can move immediately after you land.
: The reason for Zoe/Nida is because of the difference between their kits: Zoe needs to get closer, (generally) needs to land a *different* ability first, and does not have a real escape once closed on. Nida very much had many escapes, could do it from screens away, and did not have to land any other ability to kill with a Q.
Sort of. Zoe's R puts her close, but it also can't be cancelled, so it's not like you can cc her in melee range and make her stay there to be punished. Also he has a ridiculous amount of movespeed most of the time, plus getting to flash every time an enemy does/a minion wants to give you a tumor. She also doesn't need to land her bubble at all. Sure it's easier for a whole team to lock Zoe down, but for one person, even if you manage to get onto her, she'll just bubble you move 2 screens away real quick and smack you for 800 damage at level 3. There's really no reason for that.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: It's not impossible for Morgana to miss you as long as you don't run in a straight line at her. And no, you're already rewarded for closing the gap by the fact that you aren't sitting in her W - unless you think you should be rewarded for pressing a button that jumps you to an enemy when all their abilities are up...? Morgana has basically nothing if you juke her incredibly slow Q. If she landed her Q, she won, you lost. If she didn't, you can basically go to town on her. She's immobile, and has no guaranteed damage beyond auto-attack unless her ult is up. 3 of the 4 abilities in her kit are hard countered by having literally any dash, so if you can't be bothered to hold your dash to avoid at least one ability. I don't know what you should be rewarded for. I know it feels really long and unfair, but try playing Morgana against like Yasuo or Fizz or Zed - she doesn't lose, per say, but it's a goddamn pain in the ass.
I'm saying if you're playing something like Xin, say, your only option to fight a Morgana is hope she's stupid and throws a max range Q at you, dodge it, and engage. You can't jump her, because it doesn't matter how fast you are, she'll click Q and drop her puddle on you and walk away for 3 seconds. If a Yasuo dashed onto Morgana, he's going to get snared, puddled, and she'll walk away. Again, I'm not saying it shouldn't cc you if you're close to her, but I think melee champs should be rewarded, and ranged champs subsequently punished, for outplaying their safety net or getting onto them before they can cc you from half the screen away. Their reward for dropping their cc on you from low orbit is that it lasts the full duration, your reward for making that not happen is that it doesn't last the full duration. Also, this isn't specifically about Morgana, she's just an example.
: In fact, Soul Fragments heal you when you collect them, and that is very impactful. Also, adding a trade-off to using your R, while certainly being an interesting decision from an intellectual point of view, would probably feel very bad in-game. I won't support this suggestion.
I think it feels worse to ult now with 1 shard and do nothing. Or ult with 5 shards, die before the Nova goes off, and spawn with 0 shards.
: Morgan's Q has just over half the missile speed or Xerath's E (1200 to 2400), and without her ultimate up she is utterly dependant on landing a Q to do any damage. Xerath also has his Q on a much shorter cooldown than any of her abilities, has stronger (if more costly in Mana waveclear), and is mostly longer range than Morgana (just her Q has slightly longer range than his E and his uncharged Q is fairly short range). In general, while Morgana's Q is relatively long range, her ultimate makes it clear she is supposed to play mich further up than someone like Xerath. Zoe - I haven't played Zoe, so I can't really speak intelligently about her.
I'm not saying if morgana lands a melee range Q it doesn't snare you, but it probably doesn't need to last for 3 seconds, right? Shouldn't you be rewarded for closing the gap rather than punished for making it impossible for her to miss you?
: I've been playing alot of Swain.....cause I love the rework. While I agree that his Soul Shards are somewhat underwhelming, I'll say that it isn't his most glaring problem. Did you know that during your ult, you can still gather soul shards? The point at which you should be the most aggressive is the point where you can gather the most soul shards. Generally, you only need 1 or 2 in order to activate your ult. Once you do, that's when you work to get the most soul shards, of which will help deal damage at the end of it. I would like, however, to be able to activate my ult without any soul shards. Your ult can actually save you in some clutch situations, due to the health it gives. Feels kind of bad when I go to activate my ult, only to realize I can't because of no skin shards. In my opinion, his most glaring issue is that he's basically an AP Juggernaut now. He is SO easy to kite. I've actually been taking Ghost on him due to how easy it is to get away from him. Old Swain was difficult to kite due to his consistent slow on his Q, which could enable a snare from his W. This Swain only has a snare that is difficult to land, especially against a high movespeed champ like TF (I've been having alot of trouble with TF). Sure, his passive enables him to pull basically anyone if your teammates land some good CC (a Swain paired with a good Alistar is VERY scary), but on his own, you have to be patient, and play some mind games with your opponent (which makes alot of sense if you think about it). All that said, I believe I had the pleasure of playing with Reav3 on Friday! We ended up on different teams in a ranked game. At the end, we had a decent talk, and he mentioned the fact that Swain was mostly balanced around the AP items coming next patch. So, we'll have to see how he improves come then.
I agree about ulting with no shards, and yes I know you can gather them while you're ulting. I haven't had any problems getting kited, and I think his W helps with that because you can force players to be slowed or step sideways or back into you. Like you said, mind games. I've been duoing with a buddy of mine in bot lane as Swain-Sion, and it's hilarious.
: > [{quoted}](name=ThurgotOfThunder,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EykI7zKr,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-02-12T18:17:31.087+0000) > > I do think having a 90% tenacity buff is awesome, but it lasts for 1 second and has a pretty long cd. You're lucky if you deny one cc, and it does nothing to knockups. I just think giving a baseline Tenacity stat would allow for some decision making in Who you're ccing, and what cc you're using on them. Do I pulverize that Garen for 1.5 seconds, or that Vayne for 2.25? Especially in this era where cooldowns are virtually nonexistent, it would at least give a little decision making toward who you spam that cc at first. The problem with giving additional tenacity to some champions is that it will stack with existing methods of tenacity. As it is now if you're getting blasted by CC you can itemize for enough to make you practically immune to stuns, and that's not counting Garen's W or Irelia's passive. Merc Treads gives 30%, Sterak's giving 30% while activated, Elixir of Iron giving 25%, and the runes Legend: Tenacity and Unflinching giving up to 20% each. They stack multiplicatively, and I'm not doing the math right now, but that is already a lot of tenacity that almost every champion can get if they really want it (minus Sterak's for being melee only). The only limiting factor here is the will to invest into it.
> [{quoted}](name=redniwediS,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EykI7zKr,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-12T18:25:21.244+0000) > > The problem with giving additional tenacity to some champions is that it will stack with existing methods of tenacity. As it is now if you're getting blasted by CC you can itemize for enough to make you practically immune to stuns, and that's not counting Garen's W or Irelia's passive. > > Merc Treads gives 30%, Sterak's giving 30% while activated, Elixir of Iron giving 25%, and the runes Legend: Tenacity and Unflinching giving up to 20% each. They stack multiplicatively, and I'm not doing the math right now, but that is already a lot of tenacity that almost every champion can get if they really want it (minus Sterak's for being melee only). The only limiting factor here is the will to invest into it. 1- Tenacity is multiplicative, so stacking it makes it less effective per point. 2- This is also in reference to knockup tenacity due to 'heavier' models.
Rioter Comments
: Garen was given a tenacity boost on his W just for this reason, where as Darius is getting other stuff like higher damage to make his not stunned time more dangerous.
I do think having a 90% tenacity buff is awesome, but it lasts for 1 second and has a pretty long cd. You're lucky if you deny one cc, and it does nothing to knockups. I just think giving a baseline Tenacity stat would allow for some decision making in Who you're ccing, and what cc you're using on them. Do I pulverize that Garen for 1.5 seconds, or that Vayne for 2.25? Especially in this era where cooldowns are virtually nonexistent, it would at least give a little decision making toward who you spam that cc at first.
Velasan (NA)
: Your passive does damage and heals you and then makes your ult stronger later when you use it... isn't that enough?
I agree that it's a lot, especially for a passive, but that's why I suggested tuning the base Q damage down. Like I said, it's not necessarily about making his passive ULTIMATE POWER, but it's this cool mechanic that's unique to Swain that..... only makes his ult do damage. Also it gates his ult, and it feels really bad to ult with only 1-2 fragments.
Rioter Comments
: ive thought the same hing for a long time, same with more point and click cc spells being more like {{champion:13}} w with a low cd so it isnt completely bull shit like lulus poly
I think point-click cc is cancer to a huge majority of melee champs, but also totally necessary to be able to even deal with things like Vayne, Riven, or Yasuo.
VICKLIUS (NA)
: swain didn't need rework, he just needed an update adjustment, such has having his pass gain him mana or hp based on which is lower based on dmg dealt, q add blind and silence(animation Beatrice pecking interact w/ e for 2x dmg lose silence blind Beatrice animation beam), e aoe "WHILE marked dmg to swain is reduced by 20%, and if target DIES furture dmg is increased by 5%,& if target kills swain their future dmg to swain is reduced by 5%"increase range so can lead w/ it w when snare enemy champ gain ms, 10sec cd all ranks R when hit send out another raven at attacker(increase mana cost/for current mana cost) to counter that he can only send one every other second
He was one of those champs that dumpstered immobile melees and not much else. I didn't think his old kit was THAT bad, but it wasn't good, and it certainly wasn't very interactive for a lot of matchups, especially in top lane.
Rioter Comments
: they do give some health, but often all that does is return a bit of the health you used to engage on a person, generally for the sole purpose of getting that last fragment for your ult. When I'm playing the SexyMan, I often don't pay attention to those unless i'm deciding if I have enough juice to ult.
I just think they could be more impactful, rather than like you said just stacking them so your ult does any burst at the end at all.
SEKAI (OCE)
: It's just there to force the necessity of a setup. You can't just show up from nowhere and start wiping people off the map, you had to be doing something prior. It hardly affects his gameplay anyway, because you already should be having a couple fragments at least while you're waiting for CD already; unless you're off somewhere doing absolutely jack shit. If you force soul fragments into other parts of his kit such as Q, however, Swain will be forced to have his base slashed. As currently stand, Swain already has a hard time doing good clears, you really don't want to make it even harder. And worse, it's only going to be even harder because he can't even build fragments properly if this design/proposal were to go through, because he will be using his fragments all the damn time by just trying to farm or other miscellaneous tasks; if he wants to build up fragments for ulti, he literally has to be doing nothing, just running around sneaking some E-pull and wait around with a thumb up his ass hoping that there would be a fight. This change imo will only hurt him.
I'm not saying use his fragments every time you Q, but that for every fragment you've collected, each bolt does a % more damage. So you still only "use" them when you ult, but having them makes you stronger, so there's a decision to be made about whether to ult or not, because when you ult, you lose that % damage on your Q until you build your frags back up.
InTheory (EUW)
: I didn't play him myslef but from what I saw on streams they really look underwhelming. It's like Shyvanna's Fury Bar that has no other Purpose then enabling her to cast her ultimate - but at least she has no cooldown otherwise. Don't know any solution to this but give you +1
I've played a bunch of games, and after watching some streams I agree with you. It also sucks that Swain can't cast his ult without soul frags, so you're punished for not having any, but not really rewarded until you ult if you do. Thanks for the +1
Rioter Comments
: First of all you can get Swiftness boots if this bothers you that much. Second slows and peeling is like the main counter to juggernauts, otherwise they would dominate thet game since noone could stop them. However, I agree that right now melee bruisers could use some help vs all this range, poke and damage.
I mean, I can get them but it doesn't have as big of an effect as it feels like it should. Maybe if there was a rune that gave you slow resist, or if slow-resist was simply added to tenacity, because really it's a similar thing. It would make slows less powerful, but only on the champs who choose to opt into not being slowed as much at the expense of doing more damage, attacking faster, healing w/ abilities, whatever. It would be a trade-off that could change game to game, by the enemy comp your facing, as a juggernaut or bruiser, to give you more agency then, "Hope I can wade through these slows long enough to unload on the adc before I die."
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ThurgotOfThunder

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