Neverm0re (EUW)
: Camille has two dashes, a true-damage nuke, 2 auto attack resets, AOE and magical % health damage, healing, a health-scaling shield, a stun, a movement speed and attack speed steroid and an AOE slow. And she's one of the best-balanced champions in the game who almost never needs balance changes (there was her release and a brief time where she was too good in the jungle but that was only very brief and didn't need much to nerf her out of it). The problem is that they don't seem to know where they want Sylas to be. They need to decide on whether he needs to be a bruiser or an assassin and balance him for it: right now he's a bit of both and it's hurting his balance and champ identity. Is he a bruiser? If so, why does he build full AP and not AP-tank like Swain? Where is his health scaling and % health damage? Is he an assassin? If so why does he have a burst heal? Why doesn't he have an escape? How is his ult supposed to benefit an assassin playstyle? What needs to be done is Riot needs to put their foot down and say "This champion is a bruiser like Camille or Vi and we're going to tune his numbers like one" and give him low-damage, short-cooldown abilities with a mixture of AP and health scaling so ROA becomes an attractive first option like Swain or Diana. Then, and only then, will they sort Sylas out.
I always thought Sylas was supposed to be built off-tank so he could survive in a fight longer.
RealDsy (EUNE)
: What about {{champion:517}} {{champion:517}} {{champion:517}} ??? 42% winrate in challanger, 44/44 position with 46% winrate at plat+ in 9.23???
Saw them on PBE... They ain't looking too hot. They're giving him the Yuumi treatment.
: do you think they care? they buff things for specific moneymaking reasons (new skin lines, new champ releases, worlds) and then leave them like that for everyone to deal with for an indefinite amount of time. lee sin is in almost every single game i play and Im sick of seeing him. akali as well. mordekaiser. irelia. caitlin. ryze. the list goes on.. like their idea of fixing akali was to actually just fix her Q range to be **what it was intended to be** instead of looking at her sustain, constant free poke, safety, and extreme mobility. lol this balance team is creating an extremely toxic and stale environment where players lock in the same overtuned champions every single game and then have some skewed sense of accomplishment and skill mastery when it's really the champion being absolutely busted. streamers with tons of viewers aren't helping their image either because they definitely are not quiet about how this game is literally falling apart.
> [{quoted}](name=Waka FIocka,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=PaHThqBN,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-12-13T04:04:51.940+0000) > > this balance team is creating an extremely toxic and stale environment where players lock in the same overtuned champions every single game and then have some skewed sense of accomplishment and skill mastery when it's really the champion being absolutely busted. streamers with tons of viewers aren't helping their image either because they definitely are not quiet about how this game is literally falling apart. I'm fine if I can lock in the same champ, but I should at least do it because I want to (like playing Sylas every game because I want to get better with him), not because I have to (play Leona to ban a different champ instead of Senna and still destroy her). As much as I like to play Leona, I don't want to play her every game because I personally like playing enchanters, but shields can only block so much damage.
BBKong (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Minimac2000,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hIGWbxQE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-12-12T03:14:04.838+0000) > > He's too simple tho. He doesn't have reliable engage or cc = kinda garbage in this meta "We want simple champs, not overloaded ones!" "Ok here's a simple fun juggernaut :)" "He's too simple wtf Riot!?!?" They can never win with you guys. He's honestly well designed ESPECIALLY seeing as it was the Rioter's **first champion**. He has clear weaknesses and clear strengths like a champion should.
I'm honestly just surprised how I'm looking at his animations more than his ability descriptions, and he looks FUN TO PLAY. He looks and sounds so satisfying.
: Sett is stepping into the Vain Glory district...
Manxxom (NA)
: I knew sett was going to like quite human, but I was hoping for his hair to be something like this.
By his emblem on the pass, I thought he was going to be more monstrous (would've been a good departure from the human champs we've been getting lately)
: I mean he is actually 100% right. Like if this guy talked like this all the time he would be so much better. He goes over the old kit and the small rework to explain his reasoning which is how you argue. Like wow just wow I mean when he is isn't talking about Aatrox it's pretty bad. Like this is actually pretty jarring to listen too compared to when he talks about basically anything else. This just shows how ignorant the people wanting old Aatrox back are. WHEN FUCKING HASHINSHIN CAN MAKE A GOOD ARGUMENT AGAINST IT you should know you're wrong.
> [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=35R1VRrv,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-09T15:13:16.956+0000) > > I mean he is actually 100% right. Like if this guy talked like this all the time he would be so much better. He goes over the old kit and the small rework to explain his reasoning which is how you argue. Like wow just wow I mean when he is isn't talking about Aatrox it's pretty bad. > > Like this is actually pretty jarring to listen too compared to when he talks about basically anything else. > > This just shows how ignorant the people wanting old Aatrox back are. WHEN FUCKING HASHINSHIN CAN MAKE A GOOD ARGUMENT AGAINST IT you should know you're wrong. He did make good points, but then again, I do remember when Aatrox wasn't 100% AD scalings (the AP Aatrox URF vids) (I started playing around season 3 and more seriously in season 4) and yeah, he became a monster after the mini rework, but still, Old Aatrox was a playstyle I liked playing around, and was something that I personally enjoyed. I guess you could say that I'm biased because yeah, new Aatrox isn't a playstyle that I'm used to, and... well, he is also nerfed to oblivion. I guess when hash points it out, I never realized his revive used to have such a long cooldown. Still though, they could've had the revive a part of new Aatrox passive so that it was on a static cooldown and not based on the ult (something that had to be relatively short to be used in fights since it was a stat buff, but long enough to warrant the benefit of not dying). I wasn't much of a main, but I liked Aatrox a lot. Now... not as much. He looks cool, but Rhaast just fits the warlord persona much better.
: Caitlyn Much Needed Change Riot Read!
The second one not so much, the first one, definitely.
: Except Nautilus is overperforming across the board MORE THAN SENNA IS. You're basically calling 1 champ broken when in reality it is the result of another broken champ.
Then if that's the case, we should have a discussion about the hook supports (including Leona) as a whole. I'm here to talk about Senna. I don't like going against the hook/engage supports either, but I'd like to keep on topic.
: Is Ivern really unlliked or has he just been an awful weak champion
The problem with playing him is that while I can explain what Ivern does (even looking up jungle path videos to understand how to be more effective on him) most people have no idea what he does and they are under the notion that the jungler does damage, since that has been the common theme for every jungler before him, as well as the across the board enchanter nerf because of season 7, but happening halfway into season 8 after the problem was already solved. I can be a good sport and explain that I'm just another support and I don't have much in terms of damage, but most of the time I get players that have no idea what he does, or what his limits are, and end up making poor decisions. I still like the guy, I might go support jungle (if I look up jungle paths again) just to take Ivern and still go bot occasionally.
Ooduwa (NA)
: But Naut & Leona are stronger bot lane than Senna?
I believe he was referring to Senna paired with Leona or Naut as her support, not instead of Senna being the support.
Manxxom (NA)
: Thank you riot.
Agreed, I never had a hextech skin for a champ I liked/played enough to bother saving for, but I'd do it for Swain
: hashinshin: mages are most broken class and require no skill to play
Sometimes Hash says things that make sense, then other times he spouts bias that makes me question his reasoning. I'm not without my moments of bias, but I at least try to think of ways that won't put the champ back in a similar spot they were in before (like Sona and making her a better enchanter support without making her poke unbearable again)
: Nerf Nautilus and Leona, and you'd find her adc win rate would drop to about 50.5%.
But the point isn't to dumpster other champions to make one perform worse.
: Insight on True Damage skins: We tried to pick champs who needed skins
Qiyana only had her release skin, so personally I'm giving her a pass. Akali? Probably didn't need one. Yasuo? Dude's been in almost every event skin line recently. He could wait a while. Am I biased? Yeah, but that's generally the purpose with which skins I'm more likely to buy.
Even (NA)
: no one wants to see fking true damage {{champion:516}} {{champion:427}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:136}}
: Senna NEEDS to be given a HARSH choice. DAMAGE or UTILITY.
Draven technically has utility with his E (knock back and slow), not reliable, but it's something given his ridiculous damage output. BUT this isn't about Draven. Anyway, I'd love for Senna to be modified to work better with enchanter builds so she can work as a healing SUPPORT, not a second carry. She's classified as a marksman support because she uses her auto attacks more often than her abilities, shouldn't be because she can "flex" into more than support. The problem is I'm not sure how to "force" her into just support or make her role diversity just more difficult, without fully changing her.
XPnut (NA)
: Champion pricing - Why?
They've needed to lower the champion prices for most of them for a long time. Too many cost 6300, and since it's not based on how long the champ has been released, you have to wait for new champs to come out to either reduce the "oldest" 6300 or hope it's that time for a select 4800 champ to go down (or something, I'm not sure).
: i would have definitely been disappointed by THAT ornn skin im not looking for a whymsical skin on a fucking fire goat god
> [{quoted}](name=Thingamajig,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Iz5jZTIm,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-29T16:45:04.828+0000) > > i would have definitely been disappointed by THAT ornn skin > > im not looking for a whymsical skin on a fucking fire goat god What if the whimsical skin is a skin like Toy Maker Ornn?
SÎke (NA)
: Hi
Saezio (EUNE)
: I wasn't naming _all_ the worst supports. And yuumi is a very weird example, because if she hovers around 50% with her kit in soloq she is bound to be beyond busted in pro. I can understand yuumi being low win % in soloq. But pyke? Dude is SUPPOSED to be strong in a non coordinated environment
True. Sucks how I got Yuumi because I was happy to have another enchanter, but now I feel like I'm trolling if I think about picking her, even though parts of her kit would benefit our comp (her ult with engagers like olaf/volibear, the heal and movespeed) Now I'm waiting for Senna to have her numbers moved around to her supporting abilities so I can play her as a healer.
Norglics (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Un1Nnog,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2019-11-27T21:49:25.660+0000) > > She has a 51% win rate and is underperforming every other popular pick champ..... yet she is totally broken , what the hell with that built in heal area stun now the best ranged ult total lame
root*. She has a delayed aoe root if she hits something. I know with how fast people die it might as well be a stun since anything above a slow is instant death, but at least call it what the actual cc type is. But otherwise I agree, the heal should (maybe) only happen if she tags an ally.
: actually, a support going for pentas is fine. A support that goes for pentas while also getting double gold value by giving that to allies...not fine
Should've been like Ganesha from Smite where he is incapable of getting kills (he gives the credit to allies and takes the assist for himself)
Saezio (EUNE)
: You can't possibly be still complaining about pyke.. Dude is one of the WORST supports at 47% winrate.
You forgot her: {{champion:350}} (although objectively probably still good in pro)
: Everyone, Calm Down. Aphelios Isn't That Complicated.
i think the hardest part is recognizing the guns aphelios has equipped, the rest is if he's on my team i know when my ally wants to go ham with his guns before he loses them, or when to play safe so he uses his ammo on the wave instead (or when to focus cc on him)
: reading the new champions abilities be like
two skill shots i think, since i think a couple of his R's stop on first enemy hit, or maybe it's all his r's with bonuses based on which guns he has on his main and off-hands
Noraver (NA)
: So, I have to say I support both sides of this. 1. In the first case, I hardly believe quitting your job over feeling badly about a skin you've created is the right reaction. I believe the skin looks alright. Only seen it a few times, but it looks fine. To work in the gaming industry, you need thick skin. People are going to give you feedback constantly. That's how these games work. If you can't handle it, then despite being able to design nice things like skins, etc., perhaps this isn't the job for you. 2. The new Aatrox skin has been widely received as bad because it A) Looks too similar to his previous skin B) It's a theme that doesn't really fit him Not only does it look incredibly similar to his Justicar skin, but it looks plain awkward. Almost like Aatrox is running around in spandex. The justicar skin was a nice alter-ego skin, but the Victorious skin took it one step too far. I would've personally gone for a new them entirely this year, and used Aatrox as an example to start a new "Victorious" line; One where they could make him look bruised, beaten, damaged, but came out "Victorious" in the end. But I digress. The game design industry is an environment where you're going to get feedback 24/7, whether you like it or not. Developers should be glad they have players giving them feedback every day; they should be looking forward to it and treat it all as a learning experience, whether it's good or bad. Hell, I work in IT, and I get feedback all the time from users. It's a good thing. On the other hand, it should never go as far as insulting the person themselves. I mean, yeah, some people are exhausted with some of the devs for creating brokenly OP champions or items, and they get insulted (Called stupid, etc), which comes from frustration of playing a competitive game against these things. But skins? They're entirely cosmetic, added purely for the addition of fun. There never needs to be insults thrown at a designer because they've designed an "ugly" skin, especially when they may not have any say in it. They could be given a "Hey, make this champion a skin in this theme line!" instruction, and that's all they get, we don't know. Give feedback, even if it's bad. Just be kind about it.
You mean like the challenger skin line, but unique for Aatrox's case? That wouldn't be too bad
: Ok so this is what I got from this: 1. Aphelios lvls up his skills automatically. 2. You spend points on stats. 3. The most important thing is to remember the symbol for each weapon. 4. Just like Jhin, Aphelios uses ammo. 5. Unlike Jhin, Aphelios switches weapons instead of reloading. 6. Just like Nidalee Elise n Gnar, Aphelios' Q changes when his weapon changes. The Q's of his weapons can be remembered like this: 1. Calibrum (Halo Energy Blade): Nidalee's q; marks ppl. 2. Severum (Twin Crescents): Lucian's Ult; weaker but can heal. 3. Gravitum ( Co ): Glacial Augment; that can root. 4. Infernum (Fire):Rumble's Q; spit fire. 5. Crescendum (Twin blades): Gnar's Q, but with a smaller starting range.
His R also changes slightly based on main gun and off-hand weapon
: (APHELIOS) Nice Graphics Bru
Gtfcked (NA)
: I might be wrong, But I swear that Riot said they would slow down on making new champions and focus on reworking older ones, Why are there new champions that NO ONE is asking for. No one wants overloaded kits, No one wants champions that most of the player base will have trouble understanding and have trouble playing against them. Does this shit company even listen to it's playerbase? Every change has the community sitting here wondering wtf you guys are thinking. It's almost 2020, Get your shit together Riot Games, We the community aren't asking for new champions like this, We don't want the game we love to be plagued with overpowered kits. The game experience is dropping with each season due to the changes you make without consulting the people who pay your bills.
they said they would return attention to new champs somewhere in a roadmap/askriot (less reworks, but we getting voli and fiddle next year) But I agree, they should update some of the older champions that either can't function or have an outdated model (or don't deliver on their idea/fantasy, even if the update is a modernization like pantheon or warwick)
: I actually cant wait to play this champ, screw the rest of the iron mindset players, the challenge is there and the rewards are sowed that we may be able to reap.
I am looking forward to him, but I will be wary for a while (mostly for the top lane and mid lane aphelios players)
Voluug13 (NA)
: Make supports item team unique. If they can put people automatically into roles they can give them a passive that enables the purchase of support items. No one buys support items unless they are broken and abusable, so no there is no loss.
Like one of those "requires gold gen item" (so ivern can get them even if he doesn't get a support starting item) instead of "only one gold gen item allowed". Could work.
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oYpZ834n,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-11-24T13:51:52.617+0000) > > Supports should not have gold. > > If they end up too weak riot should look to buffing their kits to be less dependent on gold because supports should be effective primarily on their base kit Great logic their friend, if that's the case why don't we just remove items from the game entirely and have it be like Overwatch where you only win because your character is Overtooled on release or has a really low skill cap with 0 counter play because Riot can't design characters correctly. Oh! Oh! Better idea! Imagine a meta where Vladimir or Mundo exist, and there's no way to stop their healing since items don't exist and "kits need to be less item dependent anyway" :D Sarcasm aside: Supports need gold to buy wards (pink wards since they removed basic ones), as well as to get the items we need to support the team: Tank supports need tank items so they can survive the engage, Poke supports need damage items so they can actually contribute damage in team fights. Saying that supports need to be more reliable based on their kit and not items is asking for a ton of trouble.
Remember that time when executioner's didn't exist? Those were nice times.
Moody P (NA)
: Supports should not have gold. If they end up too weak riot should look to buffing their kits to be less dependent on gold because supports should be effective primarily on their base kit
: i feel like all of the people commenting in favor of the support item changes arent support players
They're good because they let you start your build earlier. They suck because you lose out on the other passive effects that were there before (healing from relic gone, mana regen, health regen gone, faster relic recharge with upgrades gone), and the gold passive LEAVES after 1500 gold. So what, I have to pick a champion that can clear waves quickly to get gold and still be there to help my team? If that's the case, why am I penalized by "farming too much" even after the quest is fully completed? Why am I rewarded for stealing minions from the people who need that gold more? I could care less about having 4 wards available. The only reason I'm able to function as a "support" is because the one game I played as Lulu I took a lot of bounties and kills and got to full build and was ready to kill, and I've been playing Pantheon support with my friend so I've had killing and roaming power, and the ability to clear waves when alone. Not even mentioning Senna. I have yet to try Sona with the new item, shouldn't be too different, except I have to either go relic to save my mana for heals or spellthiefs to get gold from pokes and burn through my mana, until I get tear, but that puts me 850 gold behind my core items (unless I go future market). I'm salty about a few things, but I hope they change them to not be one-sided.
: The support items are trash for genuine support purposes: they give AP and AD (stats you want on carries not usually so important on supports - base values and poor ratios typically). In addition to that the 10% cdr and 50% mana regen (both very important stats for supports) are gone and can not be replaced without taking up an item slot and costing gold. Supports did not need more AP or AD. The only tier 3 item that was worth upgrading was the relic shield for 10% cdr.
And I found the fully upgraded relic had a higher execute threshold and they recharged quicker. Unlike now where it takes 45 seconds across the board and then shuts off after 1500 gold.
: Senna needs nerfs
Her damage needs to be nerfed, and her actual support qualities need to be improved. Her passive damage is fine as poke, since she only has one poking main ability (besides her autos). It's once she starts getting lethality and range when she becomes hard to deal with, coupled with her heal. I'm sure they could lower the base value but up the AP scaling to make it a clearer divide between being a damage role and an enchanter role.
: Let's settle this once and for all! Is the support item change a buff or a nerf? - An Analysis -
Relic line for melees was nerfed super hard, and spellthiefs on those who can't comfortably poke put themselves in danger, and since there isn't ancient coin to fall back on for the supports that fell inbetween relic and spellthiefs (unwise to poke but unable to use relic passive) now there isn't that option to take to play safe and wait it out, or a support with heavy item costs (Sona with first item tear going into core items).
Rockman (NA)
: Do you think Alune's getting elo boosted or is it Aphelios?
It's definitely Alune. I mean, look at her, her cute little butt is getting carried by Aphelios
: Supports need a new way of generating gold
Remember bandit? The old support item passive? Maybe have that come back in a slightly more powerful form for supports in the late game so they can get ambient gold during pushes. (Reason it's stronger is because you have to already commit 1500 quest gold to get to the final form)
: > [{quoted}](name=xox BaByDoLL xox,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-11-21T02:05:58.531+0000) > > What happened to healers that's so bad? > I didn't realize they were making huge changes to healing/shields?? Well those got gutted in 8.12, when the uptime of shields was basically halved PLUS healing and shielding power reduced on every item that had it.
> [{quoted}](name=You Are Cute XD,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=r4N52yLX,comment-id=00040003,timestamp=2019-11-21T16:23:08.376+0000) > > Well those got gutted in 8.12, when the uptime of shields was basically halved PLUS healing and shielding power reduced on every item that had it. Wasn't that gutting also way after the time when enchanters weren't as powerful? I might be remembering it wrong.
: So I played a game as Support to see if things are as bad as they seem...
They need to keep the gold income passive (minion execute/gold from poke) on full upgrade, or once the item is fully upgraded, TURN OFF the over-farming penalty. If I'm going to help clear a side line (as a support that can actually wave clear) I'm going to do so, don't punish me for helping since apparently the only way to make gold between fights is either through assists, kill jungle camps, steal champ kills, or just take the minions for yourself.
: Blink And You'll Miss It: Elder Drake Buff is Toxic To Gameplay
Looks like the code is checking IF the target gets below 20% hp before they actually are, or something, is what I'm inferring from the caitlyn and veigar clips (I haven't actually seen elder dragon in any of my games yet)
: new support items need buffs
I agree with number 3 (though that might be because I've been rocking the off-meta supports too, next to Senna), farming or helping clear waves (sometimes when alone) feels like a punishment But they could fix this by leaving the gold income passive even when it's fully upgraded so you don't feel bad about stealing minions from the rest of your team who probably need the gold more.
Remus Wins (EUNE)
: Aphelios New Champion Revealed
I know Senna technically counts as a support... but two marksman in a row? I can't complain, he looks interesting.
FridgeD (EUW)
: enchanters are such a wierd class. there are the absolute design fails like lulu or janna: janna: are you a melee? you are useless this match. also janna: oh, you are a burst mage! *janna.exe has stopped working* lulu, yumi and soraka have the same issue, where they counter some stuff to such an absurd amount but have matchups where they just dont function at all. really bad design and unfun to play against. on the other side, there are champions like nami and sona, who are some of the best designed champions in lol history. (rakan if you count him as enchanter, but please without the xayah combo) i think back then it was ardent being the problem. most "hypercarry" adcs need 3 items to start the carry. ardent reduced this number to 2. and lulu made it even worse. (+she is able to bully in lane).
True, even now enchanters can't function currently given how bursty and perma cc things are. Especially Sona, who is essentially a reverse-hypercarry (needs levels and items, but needs participation to get there sooner). Given how fast paced everything is, the game doesn't allow that wind-up time (especially when Sona's proper time when she becomes strong in teamfights is level 11 and then 16). Also, am I the only one frustrated when Riot pulls the card of nerfing a specific champion, then the items that made them strong, or nerfing the wrong abilities, then leaving said champ in nerfed state? Examples being Sejuani (and pretty much any champion that gets picked more than once in pro games).
: Goodbye Season 9 and Good Riddance
I'm ready for Fiddlesticks. (Silently hoping he isn't shoehorned into jungling, I want to play him mid)
FridgeD (EUW)
: legit everything is better than lulu ardent cancer meta, when the whole game was decided around which "hypercarry" got fed. the year when melee was non existent. tris + lulu. hell no, even black cleaver meta was more fun than this garbage!
Okay maybe not tristana and lulu, I mostly played lulu when sona wasn't a good idea against my lane opponents. Lulu also synergizes well with anyone who can auto attack quickly, given her E and passive, and from range. Yeah, Lulu was a little crazy... but it's been so long I don't even remember if it was the adc's that were the problem, or the enchanters combined with the items that were the problem.
: When you've been playing support for 6+ years, and all these mages and assassins start showing up
Yep, that sums it up. Also low-key wondering if people think this meta is better than the year of enchanters.
: {{champion:80}} {{champion:22}} support next season
me and my friend were rocking pantheon support (before the rework) for a while before the game became... well, really bursty. Maybe new pantheon will work better with his new E and everything, but we will have to experiment.
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TonyTonyMordecai

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