: That's the problem with Garen's rework: he still has his 30% Move speed buff on Q, is building move speed from Inspiration, and is building a lot of the same items as those adcs/yasuo now. In other words, he has more move speed than they do, on top of silencing and dps increases from attack speed. It's no longer a rule of "don't get near him." It's nor a rule of "ban him because he WILL get near you." It's easy to claim the distance/poke still exists, but all he has to do in a poke lane atm, is to turret until he has his first couple half items, and save his Flash for an all in. This is why he's currently performing 54% mid lane now. Just wait for the right time to Flash > Silence and instant kill. If we were talking about pre-rework, I'd agree with you. But, {{item:3071}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3800}} {{item:3742}} counter that argument. Heavily. And then there's the fact that 90% of top matchups are still melee vs melee.......
> [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0n3Z8lEf,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-10-20T17:32:32.339+0000) > > That's the problem with Garen's rework: he still has his 30% Move speed buff on Q, is building move speed from Inspiration, and is building a lot of the same items as those adcs/yasuo now. In other words, he has more move speed than they do, on top of silencing and dps increases from attack speed. > > It's no longer a rule of "don't get near him." It's nor a rule of "ban him because he WILL get near you." > > It's easy to claim the distance/poke still exists, but all he has to do in a poke lane atm, is to turret until he has his first couple half items, and save his Flash for an all in. > > This is why he's currently performing 54% mid lane now. Just wait for the right time to Flash > Silence and instant kill. > > If we were talking about pre-rework, I'd agree with you. But, {{item:3071}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3800}} {{item:3742}} counter that argument. Heavily. > > And then there's the fact that 90% of top matchups are still melee vs melee....... He made those items before the re-work, but substitute TF for PD in your example. He's simply been released as an overtuned re-work where they weren't concerned that it would affect Worlds.The underlying kit is weaker than before. He'll be nerfed next patch, and probably again in the following patch, and then he'll actually have a lower winrate (in high MMR) than he did before the re-work. Since Garen is taking Conqueror almost exclusively now, not sure where he's building MS from Inspiration. Secondary should be Resolve in high MMR and Sorcery in low MMR. PREVIOUS Garen ran Predator and Phase Rush; these are decidedly inferior options at the moment. As a side effect of making Precision the primary tree for Garen right now, he is running Legend: Tenacity almost every match. If he's in midlane, then it's maybe a %50 chance that he got mercs. He'll start buying Iron eventually... that's %63 Tenacity, kind of close to Unstoppable, and not anything to do with his kit particularly. (And if that savvy high MMR Garen felt like take Unflinching on top of that, rather than Overgrowth...)
: Map Changes should Create Ward Changes
How about we start by reverting the most recent vison nerfs: Increase ward duration by 1/3, let me carry as many CW as I feel like spending gold on, and bring back green smite.
: Why did they buff garen...
The designer said that he was releasing Garen rework overtuned (buffed) so that players would like the changes, and this was intentional, with nerfs to quickly follow. Translation: The Garen re-work is actually bad, and we wanted people to forget how Garen used to be. Nerfs are scheduled for next patch, and they will probably roll out more nerfs in the following patch. (The rework had no bearing on Garen played at Worlds, so they really didn't need to answer to anybody that they cared about, regarding this decision...) (Pretty sneaky, right?)
godseidon (EUNE)
: Can we talk about preseason changes?
I predict that much of what has been presented will not be workable. Much of it will be reverted, and much of it will be changed to essentially a reversion. It's not even that all of it's bad... but it's a lot. It's too much, at once. The changes don't address the problems that the game currently suffers; in some cases these changes would appear to exacerbate existing issues.
Zardo (NA)
: Not everyone frequents surrender@20 or follows whoever puts out the balance changes on twitter. Some people just don't know.
> [{quoted}](name=Zardo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GBO241U5,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-10-20T23:32:23.209+0000) > > Not everyone frequents surrender@20 or follows whoever puts out the balance changes on twitter. Some people just don't know. Yeah, but if you're already THINKING "Hey, this champ is broken; I feel like he should be nerfed" - then the natural inclination BEFORE making a post, might be to check and see...
: Garen is not fair
It's just another broken re-work release, and nerfs have already been announced.
: Nerf Garen
Nerfs already been announced.
: nerf his ass >:c
> [{quoted}](name=Support Xayah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QY6L2UTs,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-10-20T19:51:27.225+0000) > > nerf his ass >:c Just revert the whole thing; problem solved.
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YwUIrPn4,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2019-10-19T13:59:41.890+0000) > > For Garen, this is a nerf. from 28th win rate into 1st in win rate i don't think you understand how op health shields are for laning
> [{quoted}](name=Ornndyr2k19,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YwUIrPn4,comment-id=00000002000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-19T22:28:05.562+0000) > > from 28th win rate into 1st in win rate > i don't think you understand how op health shields are for laning They did so much other stuff to Garen. *laugh* However W, active and passive, is nerfed.
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YwUIrPn4,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-10-19T04:00:58.526+0000) > > Ah, the shield is a nerf. no it isn't really Ornn lost his shield for % damage mitigation Ornn is now weaker with 50% win rate than when he had 46% win rate with a shield
> [{quoted}](name=Ornndyr2k19,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YwUIrPn4,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2019-10-19T13:10:29.627+0000) > > no it isn't really > > Ornn lost his shield for % damage mitigation > Ornn is now weaker with 50% win rate than when he had 46% win rate with a shield For Garen, this is a nerf.
: Please make Red Trinket give the same vision score as Yellow Trinket.
(Wow. You fought a Brand Support in a recent 40m match who managed to accumulate VS = 109. Brutal.)
: Please make Red Trinket give the same vision score as Yellow Trinket.
Any trinket activation (or use of Sight or True Sight) adds to VS. The number in the tab is not the actual VS; it is only the wards dropped / destroyed count. VS for purpose of grading is revealed in the end-game stats. (VS increases every time player punches OCULAR LENS, regardless.) ... "Yellow Trinket Wards give a small amount of vision score per hour, even if the ward never sees an enemy champion. That's because the ward is doing a helpful thing even if it doesn't spot an enemy champion." - this is not strictly true - see https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Vision_score . However, you are correct. Yellow trinket is better than red for most players in low MMR. Support takes Red because of the extra Yellows on the Support Item, and one (responsible) sweeper *may* be sufficient for the team. *> In low MMR, where there are relatively few wards to find. I think that in games where the map has a greater population of wards, then Red gives higher scores (and is also lucrative). I believe that red gives points if it reveals any ward (or shroom etc) even if the item is not destroyed. (Like scryers.) The points shown in the tab is not the actual VS - you know that, right? It's just a shorthand for the minigame (wards dropped / destroyed). (The VS in the end-game stats is the actual VS.) (I think that it actually does already give points for usage along the lines of your post.) Much as Yellow maximizes score for spotting things, and minimizes for pointlessness, Red also maximizes for proper use to spot things, and minimizes for pointlessness. Finally, VS is a good minigame, a nice feature, but the whole grading system is NOT absolutely optimal to winning games. (Often it is at a conflict with correct play, and this is one example.) It's just a guide. Play to win. Don't get caught up. Don't fall for the hype. Don't get distracted.
: Why do I keep getting condom commercials on spotify holy fuck
Somehow they know that your penis is already big enough.
: I said roach in chat referring to cockroaches will I be banned?
Sydney26 (EUW)
: If u were Riot what would u have done for Preseason ???
: The loading screen tip should always be the same one!
: Then give us an XP boost too Problem solved :D
> [{quoted}](name=Hammermancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xN7KdigV,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-10-19T04:45:53.379+0000) > > Then give us an XP boost too > > Problem solved :D Buy an XP boost and every day is an event for you... (I think it's more value than a pass?)
: Honest Question! Do anyone enjoy this champions?
Riot marketing philosophy has a major underlying tenet that frustration is good for business. We dance for sadistic masters.
: i tend to think the next season will fucking be so fucking awful, but then its only a little worse and i find my self pleasantly surprised
> [{quoted}](name=u aint cute,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9IMryWY7,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-18T23:26:51.211+0000) > > i tend to think the next season will fucking be so fucking awful, but then its only a little worse and i find my self pleasantly surprised *laugh* This is the most conceivably positive outlook. (I think that it's gonna be Worst Season Ever, too.)
: Garen is in DESPERATE need of a hotfix.
He dies more than he used to. ):
: So are we going to openly ignore that Garen, Pyke, and Morgana are nearly all permaban status?
Garen really shouldn't be anybody's ban. Even in his currently overtuned state.
: Can we get RITO to add another in game emote button...plz!!!!
Why not just have access to all of your "emotes" in game? Why does this need to be a pre-set at all?
: I'm curious, why no essence emporium during this event?
Essence Emporium is 2x/year: preseason and midseason. Logically (to me) it makes sense to have Emporium AFTER an event, so players can farm up as much BE as possible. (It feels to me that the events preceding BEE tend to be generous for BE farming).
Zullar (NA)
: I tested him in about 3 minutes. At max build with dragons Q + E + R did 13,000 damage to the target dummy. I repeat: It only took 3 minutes to test.
> [{quoted}](name=Zullar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UEWG9lhQ,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-10-15T01:28:50.926+0000) > > I tested him in about 3 minutes. At max build with dragons Q + E + R did 13,000 damage to the target dummy. > > I repeat: It only took 3 minutes to test. We're trying to replicate this. What was the exact build?
TheCrazyBoy (EUNE)
: Riot don't do the mistake to nerf garen read this
Listen... You are under some misapprehensions. The Garen re-work was NOT done as a buff. Garen got a nice a buff a few months ago. Season 9 has been the best season that Garen has ever had, arguably. He's been in a pretty good spot FOR HIM for a while. Throughout the process, the administration re-iterated that his winrate was not intended to be permanently improved by these changes. That if his winrate DID rise, then he would be nerfed. That means, it's not a buff. (Ideally, they want his winrate to stay the same, they say. Personally, I think that he may wind up a bit worse, next Season.) Garen was intentionally released overtuned so that players would like the changes (and with the intention of scaling down his numbers after a patch or two). The main difference for me is that Garen dies a little more often and falls off harder in the endgame. In return, he has a somewhat more comfortable early game. I'd pick the previous Garen. (After they undo the rework release overtuning. Because the underlying kit that he is left with, is worse.) **#LeaveGarenAlone**
: l2p?... 55% win rate from bronze to gold 54% in plat 52.6% in dia 54.9% in masters for a champion with such minimal skill expression as garen having such high win rates means that his stats are way over inflated and thus NEEDS to be nerfed the counter play against the champion didn't change at all he gained a shield that made most of his bad matchups that kept him in check irrelevant im happy that you finally can do well with your champion but that doesn't mean you understand how bad it is to fight him
> the counter play against the champion didn't change at all > he gained a shield that made most of his bad matchups that kept him in check irrelevant > im happy that you finally can do well with your champion but that doesn't mean you understand how bad it is to fight him Ah, the shield is a nerf.
: > [{quoted}](name=Amish Porpoise,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nVdMpErx,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-12T23:56:31.475+0000) > > First of all, learn what a period and comma are cuz jesus that hurt to read. Second, in no way is he weaker now that he ever was. Literally any site you use to look at his stats, he has a higher winrate AND a higher playrate. Generally when someones playrate hits a massive spike, their numbers will go down as people think they can play him, suck, and still win, which right now IS WHAT IS HAPPENING. Once people stop playing him as much/learn him better, that winrate will continue to rise. Thats how it works with literally every champion, no matter how braindead. So no, he is not weaker. And don't bother with the "you don't play him stfu noob" argument, I really don't care and stats don't lie small follow-up. Riot themselves have said that they went a little overboard on the changes and he is stronger than intended. Riot balancing might be a joke but when they say something is too strong, they mean it
> [{quoted}](name=Amish Porpoise,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nVdMpErx,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-10-13T00:02:00.033+0000) > > small follow-up. Riot themselves have said that they went a little overboard on the changes and he is stronger than intended. Riot balancing might be a joke but when they say something is too strong, they mean it *laugh* The designer told us that he was intentionally releasing Garen as overtuned, so that players would like the changes. (And that he planned to normalize Garen numbers after a patch or two.) (And that this is actually SOP.) (**#LeaveGarenAlone**)
ßlameMyADC (EUNE)
: Testing the Garen
Why you didn't just give him DD for BT in the last build? (I guess if he's using BT like that, then he may as well take Shield Bash...) What stands out (to me) from your post is that Garen doesn't scale with items much. (Not as much as would be expected. He doesn't snowball much.) (But he's not supposed to.) This was all done on a lvl 18 Garen. Early game differences are even much finer. The difference on a full Garen Combo using just BC or just DMP is ~%10.
ßlameMyADC (EUNE)
: Testing the Garen
Also, Tenacity stacks multiplicatively. It's still a lot of Tenacity, but it's not %95 just from boots. (It's %72, for .75s.) *laugh* But then you gave him Unflinching AND Legend. (Yeah, Garen wasn't going Legend before, but he is now, because Conqueror.) (On the other hand, ANY CHAMPION will have %67 Tenacity with those runes and boots. Quaff Iron and it's %75. That's NOT a Garen trick.)
ßlameMyADC (EUNE)
: Testing the Garen
Riot is balancing Garen around Conqueror now; assume that Conqueror is the keystone.
: Garen has been winning lane against Darius and Teemo ever since he got tenacity and damage reduction on his W. The only champions that can keep Garen in check in lane are Yorick, Nasus, Fiora, Trundle. Maybe Tryndamere (since Garen isn't actually rushing armor anymore) but that comes down to the summoners.
> [{quoted}](name=Radiant Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RoAqZn3P,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-14T12:54:23.993+0000) > > Garen has been winning lane against Darius and Teemo ever since he got tenacity and damage reduction on his W. The only champions that can keep Garen in check in lane are Yorick, Nasus, Fiora, Trundle. > > Maybe Tryndamere (since Garen isn't actually rushing armor anymore) but that comes down to the summoners. No.
: Vote to remove Garen from game
: Nerf Garen R
Your build isn't really an anti-Garen build. I don't know who else was in the match. It's a lot of armor, sure. (Two Warden's Mail Items) Grievous Wounds is a waste against that Garen. (I know... Conqueror... still.) Warden's Mail / Cripple effects also... not what anybody should be building against a Garen. (Unless Randuin's, since he was building crit, i suppose.) We don't have the full match. It's not bad... but nothing there that's going to particularly bother Garen. Garen was pretty much full damage glass-cannon. You did build SOME HP. But this wasn't optimal against THAT guy.
: Garen and yuumi both need to be gutted
He's complaining because it's boring to watch. Well... Garen is kind of boring to watch. "Garen + a Cat" will also be boring to watch. Lots of things are boring to watch, even in the world of real sports. Is this about good play, or good entertainment? Anyway, it would probably be more INTERESTING, if anything, in the current patch. Is complaining about a champion participation on the grounds of uninteresting, valid? (also: What about the one who are more concerned about playing the game, rather than watching it?) (I have a suspicion that Riot benefits from, and does not discourage, Garen representation in pro.)
: Garen is fn busted
**#LeaveGarenAlone**
Zullar (NA)
: Garen + Conqueror
I agree with OP. They actually made proccing a keystone part of his power budget and Garen will be balanced around Conqueror now. He WAS a champion of diverse runes, but no longer really.
: garen
**#LeaveGarenAlone**
: well this just goes to prove the inequality of wage gap. the man makes more if he fires the female
> [{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=A3zGqamR,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T02:21:20.115+0000) > > well this just goes to prove the inequality of wage gap. the man makes more if he fires the female Your humour is too subtle... ("Do I need to hold up a sarcasm sign?" "You have a SARCASM **SIGN**?!")
: OMG I just realized that Schrödinger's Garen predicted that Guumi would exist in 2011.
There are two experiments. The first was Schrödinger's Cat. The second was Schrödinger's Garen. Of course, it was necessary to combine the two... (The combined theory of Quantum Mechanics predicts that some of the bushes must have a Garen WITH a Cat.) Your suggestion might be a corollary; in Japanese physics classes they do indeed teach about Schrödinger's Neeko. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCQu9XCAztI
: So..... Season 10 Update notes, and my opinions
Thank you for crystalizing my concerns. This looks unfun. I wanna take a break from SR for a couple months, and they will have already removed 3v3.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
GilxeN (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iMMWfRG2,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2019-10-14T06:55:27.959+0000) > > **#LeaveGarenAlone** Yup lets leave broken shit alone.
> [{quoted}](name=GilxeN,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iMMWfRG2,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2019-10-14T08:44:57.456+0000) > > Yup lets leave broken shit alone. Nooooo. I preferred the previous Garen. I been using the same motto for weeks now... Anyway, Garen new kit... isn't broken at all. It is bad. Garen re-work was released overtuned, and everybody knows that he'll be nerfed (normalized) next patch.
: > [{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0lkwlvhw,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-10-14T07:05:51.710+0000) > > **#LeaveGarenAlone** you play garen, is he actually busted or are the garens I've come across just ass cheeks? I agree he should be left alone
> [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0lkwlvhw,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-10-14T09:15:15.784+0000) > > you play garen, is he actually busted or are the garens I've come across just ass cheeks? > I agree he should be left alone He's pretty busted right now (IF players build attack speed; other builds, his traditional builds, are inferior at the moment). Captain Gameplay told us that he was intentionally releasing the rework with Garen overtuned, so that players would like it. When the numbers are normalized next patch (or the one after that), I think that Garen will be worse off than he was before the re-work, objectively.
: Which Jungle Champion shard should I unlock?
How much time do you have? The answer might be a surprise change in preseason...
: Below 20% winrate
%25 winrate over HOW MANY matches?
: Nerf Garen, I can’t play the Game cuz I’m Silenced
Kelg (NA)
: How does something like reworked Garen get through to live?
Re-worked Garen is bad. The re-work was intentionally released overtuned to hide that fact. The numbers will shortly be normalized. **#LeaveGarenAlone**
CHRo0MAX (EUW)
: Garen is blatantly the most overpowered/broken champ in the entire game
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True Garen

Level 101 (NA)
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