njrk97 (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Worst Summoner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HRGLALVM,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-06-13T22:12:17.908+0000) > > Yeah Akali is in a way worse position, with Mobalytics saying that she's D tier in solo queue top lane, and a skull and crossbones in D tier for midlane, which probably means she just isn't playable there anymore. > > Problem is that Akali just has SO MUCH in her kit. 4 dashes at level 6, and super unhealthy trading patterns of Q walk away auto. She has the exact same issue that most CertT champs have, he never learns from his mistakes and keeps doing the same thing over and over and over again. Akali can and could be in the dumpster and it would not matter, because the core dynamics of her kit feel terrible to fight against regardless of scaling,strength or anything else. Its the Zoe problem, its the Yasuo problem, his kits at their core are unfun to engage with because they are never given a meaningful push and pull. They are so hyperfocused on being 'fun' for the player that they forget this is not a PVE game. Akali being able to drop a shroud and negate any fight, is not fun, Yasuo being able to shut down every ability and auto attack with a misplaced wall, is not fun, Zoe being able to get objectively better version of your summoners spells for less work, is not fun. His champs have so much stuff that they get for free it never feels like your being outplayed by his champs, it just feels like your sitting here with a tattered baseball glove while the other kid is running around with a highgrade baseball bat and a personal coach telling him exactly how and when to swinging ontop of giving him 6 strikes instead of 3. Sure if he is bad enough you can beat him, but its a case of having to be 70% better then them instead of just 10% because the tool compensates so much for their faults. People hate CertT champs because when you lose to them you feel like you lost because they were playing a CertT champ, not because they are good.
> [{quoted}](name=njrk97,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HRGLALVM,comment-id=000800000002,timestamp=2019-06-14T11:25:30.316+0000) > > She has the exact same issue that most CertT champs have, he never learns from his mistakes and keeps doing the same thing over and over and over again. Akali can and could be in the dumpster and it would not matter, because the core dynamics of her kit feel terrible to fight against regardless of scaling,strength or anything else. Its the Zoe problem, its the Yasuo problem, his kits at their core are unfun to engage with because they are never given a meaningful push and pull. They are so hyperfocused on being 'fun' for the player that they forget this is not a PVE game. Akali being able to drop a shroud and negate any fight, is not fun, Yasuo being able to shut down every ability and auto attack with a misplaced wall, is not fun, Zoe being able to get objectively better version of your summoners spells for less work, is not fun. His champs have so much stuff that they get for free it never feels like your being outplayed by his champs, it just feels like your sitting here with a tattered baseball glove while the other kid is running around with a highgrade baseball bat and a personal coach telling him exactly how and when to swinging ontop of giving him 6 strikes instead of 3. Sure if he is bad enough you can beat him, but its a case of having to be 70% better then them instead of just 10% because the tool compensates so much for their faults. > > > People hate CertT champs because when you lose to them you feel like you lost because they were playing a CertT champ, not because they are good. The thing is that CertainlyT is a good designer in a vacuum, BUT you have to build the game from the ground up around what he wants to do Nobody would complain about these champs if League of Legends was designed from the ground up about having flashy, complex, relatively high skill cap champs with loads of outplay tools and mobility. But it wasn't, it was initially designed around champs like Annie, Volibear and Chogath.
: I am a Nasus player. I've played Nasus since season 2. I've got thousands of games on him.
we bitch about certainlyt champs but tahm kench might just be the biggest failure in champ design in half a decade at least akali has skill expression and stuff like that. at least yasuo requires some level of mechanical ability to get the most out of his overloaded kit. Tahm Kench just destroys you for existing in the same lane as him as a melee champion, and he's only doing that because his support role had to be destroyed as who could have thought a walking Zhonyas with a global that has 2 health bars would warp competitive play
: Is it just me, or are there less feeders now that iron division is around?
New players and hard stuck Bronze "smurfs" are no longer getting placed at Silver MMR so the quality of the games has likely improved drastically.
: Early Game Champs Hardly Fall off Anymore
Also the rune system gives champs a lot of artificial scaling. Gathering Storm, Dark Harvest, Press The Attack, and so forth.
Cdore (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Unironic SJW,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qAeELfWm,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2018-12-14T23:09:05.532+0000) > > trick question. Boards, or even Reddit, isn't their playerbase. We can complain all they want, but numbers don't lie. League is more popular and profitable than ever, even in the wake of a massive sex scandal, and the game that is the polar opposite of the current damage meta, HoTS, just keeled over, while DoTA 2 is barely keeping pace. > > Riot is a business, and the point of a business is to make money. Even if League goes into steady decline ala WoW, corporations don't think in the long term anyway. Don't like it? capitalism sucks. Capitalism isn't the reason this happens. Your anger is justified, but it's directed at the wrong entity. The design team, or whoever brought the game to this state, is responsible for this. Saying capitalism sucks is basically you saying that the government is the only ones who can make the game better. You're misinformed on what capitalism is. With capitalism, it means someone else can rise and take over the space that Riot is retreating from. All of their actions will have market consequences, much like any market in history. And believe me, if someone smells money, they will produce it.
> [{quoted}](name=Cdore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qAeELfWm,comment-id=001d0000,timestamp=2018-12-14T23:27:00.020+0000) > > Capitalism isn't the reason this happens. Your anger is justified, but it's directed at the wrong entity. The design team, or whoever brought the game to this state, is responsible for this. Saying capitalism sucks is basically you saying that the government is the only ones who can make the game better. You're misinformed on what capitalism is. > > With capitalism, it means someone else can rise and take over the space that Riot is retreating from. All of their actions will have market consequences, much like any market in history. And believe me, if someone smells money, they will produce it. My point is that the market is deciding RIGHT NOW. And right now, the decision is "one shot meta is good actually". People are voting with their dollars, and they're voting FOR this meta. Worlds wildly popular. Skins selling like hotcakes. Queue pops instantly. HoTS went in the complete opposite direction from League, with a huge company and massively popular franchises behind it. It's _dead_. I have never gotten oneshotted playing HOTS. EVER. Even the assassins can only 2 shot you if you're already chunked. And yet it's dead. The alternative you mention ALREADY EXISTED. And it's dead. You can say your or mine tastes are superior or more refined, but the market thinks otherwise. Especially in a globalized market where even if the NA players who have been in the game since the beginning all die off, they can just focus on Asia and still bring in shitloads of profits. Is it selling out? of course it is! That's the point! Riot exists to make money for Tencent, and what makes money for Tencent = this meta. You can leave, or you can stay, but the consumer base that prefers the one-shot meta is bigger than the one that hates it; the latter just complains more about it, because people who hate a product change complain about it, while people who like a product change *don't* complain about it (btw this is not commenting on the legitimacy of said complaints). If this meta was losing Riot money, they'd change it back.
: Seriously, Riot. Why keep increasing damage?
trick question. Boards, or even Reddit, isn't their playerbase. We can complain all they want, but numbers don't lie. League is more popular and profitable than ever, even in the wake of a massive sex scandal, and the game that is the polar opposite of the current damage meta, HoTS, just keeled over, while DoTA 2 is barely keeping pace. Riot is a business, and the point of a business is to make money. Even if League goes into steady decline ala WoW, corporations don't think in the long term anyway. Don't like it? capitalism sucks.
: I just heard new players default MMR is now iron
The vast majority of fresh level 30s are Bronze in skill level though. Why shouldn't they be in there? If they're naturally good Moba players or have previous MOBA experience they'll wreck Iron/Bronze because even Silver level players can annihilate those elos. Whereas if you start the average player in mid Silver they'll just lose the game for their team a good chunk of the time. A fresh level 30 should basically NEVER be in Gold, and should have a winning record at min to get anywhere beyond Silver 5.
: This is so dumb you can literally just build {{item:1051}} {{item:3031}} and have just like the old ie with broken true damage. Marskmen have pretty high base ad about 90-95% of bruisers while having at least 50% better base attack speed. and due to range they can forgo defense if they dont walk into the enemy front lines range like sven did.
> [{quoted}](name=LordGeovanni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ib6AwKla,comment-id=000100020001,timestamp=2018-12-07T06:53:24.978+0000) > > This is so dumb you can literally just build {{item:1051}} {{item:3031}} and have just like the old ie with broken true damage. Marskmen have pretty high base ad about 90-95% of bruisers while having at least 50% better base attack speed. and due to range they can forgo defense if they dont walk into the enemy front lines range like sven did. the bronze 2 is right (who doesn't even know how items work) and the challenger LCS starter is wrong how could we have been so stupid Also I think that in general ADCs have deep seated systematic issues that are tied to the nature of autoattacks, which is why going forward ADCs need to be more like Jhin/Lucian/MF/Ezreal, while if you want a late game scaling option they should be more like Cassiopeia where the hyperscaling is more conditional (though even Cass is pretty team dependent). But this clip represents a seperate problem, namely that Ignite is wildly overtuned, Alistar is wildly overtuned and Aftershock is wildly overtuned. Also Zven notes that they played the fight entirely wrong at the beginning of the clip (they hard dive off a Thresh hook on the Ali, not bothering to peel for their 5 kill Jhin, even if he HAD killed the Alistar, the fight was lost because all of his damage was being dumped on the Ali)
Rioter Comments
ozzirp (NA)
: Also can the {{item:3071}} build path get changed? It feels pretty bad having to sit on 15 AD untill the item is completed. Maybe something like {{item:3133}} {{item:3067}} or something? Thoughts on this?
> [{quoted}](name=ozzirp,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=38W7tIpN,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-11-22T17:35:50.948+0000) > > Also can the {{item:3071}} build path get changed? It feels pretty bad having to sit on 15 AD untill the item is completed. Maybe something like {{item:3133}} {{item:3067}} or something? Thoughts on this? It used to be Phage Caulfields but the build path was changed to make it more of a Juggernaut item and less of a Miss Fortune/Lucian item
: Neeko is a dumb pander to the LGBT community for money
im all for LGBT characters and stuff but the way they're hyping this is clearly designed to distract people like me from their institutionalized misogyny and farting in people's faces in meetings
: "We as ADC mains don't want more power we just want less snowball so we can be a late game class"
I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the fact that ADCs don't actually need buffs, they need games to not be over if you lose the first clownfiesta skirmish. It's okay for a late game class to be weak early (and the strong early game variants shouldn't scale that well either) but "being comparatively weak early" shouldn't be a thing that instantly loses you the game. the class is fine power-wise, outside a little too much dependence on the support in lane when supports scale MUCH better than they used to. The problem is that the game is largely decided at or *before* the first completed item.
Rioter Comments
: After numerous amounts of reworks to Guinsoo's Rageblade, what do you think of this new iteration?
here's how to fix rageblade remove the true damage conversion from conqueror (which now only stacks in combat with champions, but stacks every half second) remove phantom hit from rageblade, revert rageblade to live version upon reaching guinsoos rage, 15% of damage is converted into true damage until combat ends, on-hit effect from abilities are converted into 20% true damage, on hit effects from items are converted into 25% true damage
: > [{quoted}](name=Unironic SJW,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8dBWakMF,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2018-11-08T02:03:10.375+0000) > > The irony is that playing top against Vayne is exactly like playing ADC. Vayne top utterly fucks the enemy teamcomp unless they draft 2 tanks in jungle and support, which means you eventually win every teamfight if you're not 0-8 at 25 minutes, also a lot of top picks that she counters supposedly can all in her at 6, even shit like Garen, so suddenly the Vayne can not make a single positioning mistake or she dies. But none of that matters because playing melee against Vayne top makes you want to kill yourself and the fact that you win the game once you get to a certain point doesn't matter. > > That's pretty much the ADC experience when the role isn't broken. Much of what you say is true...except the part about hitting 6. There are pretty much zero top laners that can come back to best vayne once she's ahead because she scales like a monster, you'd need ganks. The only champ that should really be able to catch her is Jax. I'd say Kaylee too but she'd need the late game and could easily be E'd away by vayne.
> [{quoted}](name=DarukongSr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8dBWakMF,comment-id=0001000200000000,timestamp=2018-11-08T02:45:58.241+0000) > > Much of what you say is true...except the part about hitting 6. There are pretty much zero top laners that can come back to best vayne once she's ahead because she scales like a monster, you'd need ganks. The only champ that should really be able to catch her is Jax. I'd say Kaylee too but she'd need the late game and could easily be E'd away by vayne. You're underestimating just how squishy Vayne is compared to most tops in a 1v1 situation. Unless she's several levels ahead, pretty much every top kills her with 1 rotation + ignite. And Condemn has a longer CD than their engage spells. And her scaling is basically nullified by the fact that her team can't teamfight unless you have a tank supp/jung (and a tank support nullifies the early game advantage of having Vayne top against a melee).
: > [{quoted}](name=abca98,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8dBWakMF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-07T08:26:51.887+0000) > > The problem is ADC have been balanced around being team dependent in exchange of dealing the most DPS, and making them more "playable alone" would be difficult because of their range advantage. > {{champion:67}} is a perfect example of problematic adc becasue her kit is built to allow her some agency. She has constant autopeel, and a point and click hard cc. Yeah, she is automatic cancer anytime she goes top, because almost no one can 1v1 and she's almost completely safe from lvl 1, she she outscales her lane opponents like a fricken monster as well. It's gross. I don't enjoy any meta where vayne is strong unless I can her lol.
> [{quoted}](name=DarukongSr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8dBWakMF,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2018-11-07T21:04:05.953+0000) > > Yeah, she is automatic cancer anytime she goes top, because almost no one can 1v1 and she's almost completely safe from lvl 1, she she outscales her lane opponents like a fricken monster as well. It's gross. I don't enjoy any meta where vayne is strong unless I can her lol. The irony is that playing top against Vayne is exactly like playing ADC. Vayne top utterly fucks the enemy teamcomp unless they draft 2 tanks in jungle and support, which means you eventually win every teamfight if you're not 0-8 at 25 minutes, also a lot of top picks that she counters supposedly can all in her at 6, even shit like Garen, so suddenly the Vayne can not make a single positioning mistake or she dies. But none of that matters because playing melee against Vayne top makes you want to kill yourself and the fact that you win the game once you get to a certain point doesn't matter. That's pretty much the ADC experience when the role isn't broken.
: HEY RIOT WHY DO I HAVE TO BEAT GOLD 4 TO GET INTO SILVER 2??
> [{quoted}](name=ProjectSawyer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dUhZbgy9,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-09-07T23:45:03.732+0000) > > My team is Silver 1, Silver 1, Silver 3, Silver 2, Gold 4 > > Their team is Gold 4, Gold 4, Gold 5, Silver 1, Silver 1 > > I'm just trying to get Silver 2 but you make it so hard. The game wasn't even close > HOW ABOUT YOU FIX IT? I WISH I WAS GOLD 4 PLAYING AGAINST SILVERS TO GET TO GOLD 3 wanna know a secret those aren't *real golds*. A lot of people got lucky win streaks or got boosted way above their real MMR. But the way demotion works is that you can stay at around Gold 4 or 5 while having a low/mid Silver MMR. So you're actually mostly playing against silver players with gold badges.
: I cannot stand this "never surrender" fucking 4 year old mentallity.
there are times when a seemingly lost game looks winnable and its correct to not surrender (you have a scaling comp, you have a comp that can win any teamfight, your tanks/bruisers are feeding but your carries have items/are playing well so they can potentially carry one teamfight to swing the game around) 90% of the time, people refuse to FF because they're stubborn and want to prove their manhood even though they're clearly playing poorly, or that they're not seeing how fundamentally uncoordinated the team is and people are constantly going in 1v4 or 2v5 (honestly that's the biggest marker for when you should surrender - when you have people repeatedly trying to 1v4 or overextend for picks without vision because that's when you know you're not just behind, your teammates flat out suck and outside of putting a high high (high diamond+) elo player into that situation, you have a very low chance of winning that game)
Infernape (EUW)
: Tbh I don't see anything wrong with bruiser Fizz unless he's straight up bursting people out of existence. If you trade burst for sustained damage, there's nothing wrong with that.
> [{quoted}](name=FurorDivinus27,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BEbRA7w3,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-08-15T21:01:38.465+0000) > > Tbh I don't see anything wrong with bruiser Fizz unless he's straight up bursting people out of existence. If you trade burst for sustained damage, there's nothing wrong with that. The problem with bruiser/tank fizz is that his E gives him a massive amount of effective tankiness in a fight in addition to the tank items he's building, so his tankiness is actually closer to an actual tank than a bruiser, and his mobility gives him unparalleled stickiness. Ekko has the same problem, his W and R give him so much extra psuedo-tankiness so if they have any kind of viable skirmisher/sustained damage pattern they're completely overbearing. I actualy think what needs to happen is that squishy characters need to become less squishy (mostly by scaling base stats) instead of lowering damage heavily. A huge element of the snowball issue is that character power is more and more tied to items, and if you're behind in items you're more useless than you would have been in past seasons.
Rioter Comments
: {{champion:145}} is in a gutted state and is back to being as weak as release day.
> [{quoted}](name=Colton147,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xf28JPJs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-04T23:44:46.938+0000) > > {{champion:145}} is in a gutted state and is back to being as weak as release day. didn't think the hotfix nerfs were that big, they still have really high playrates. I'd keep a close eye on my main MF though; she got a lot of indirect buffs this patch.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: True, I didn't calculate that. Essentially a free win in a scenario where you need to do 2 consecutive ones. Very important, indeed.
> [{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1qvr8H0R,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2018-05-11T20:33:12.790+0000) > > True, I didn't calculate that. Essentially a free win in a scenario where you need to do 2 consecutive ones. Very important, indeed. The thing is that promo helper doesn't alter MMR/Elo, so it doesn't matter. Someone who's in Silver 5 but is really Bronze 2 in skill level is still getting matched with Bronze 2s. However, there are a lot of people with Silver MMR that are Bronze 2 in skill level, largely because of autofill, DQ's continued impact on rank, the fact that people who play hundreds and hundreds of games are guaranteed to go up in MMR even if they're losing at a 47% winrate, the fact that people may climb on one champion (maybe an overtuned one) than randomly play other champions, etc.
Rioter Comments
Kilanost (NA)
: I think people are going to build zeal, not upgrade it, and go straight for IE from there. They'll have 40% crit with IE at this 1.5 item point that comes 1400ish gold sooner. The AS is not nearly as relevant because most ADCs dont get to stand in one place and autoattack at their max AS due to needing to reposition. Ultimately where we end up is that this trend will continue. The next thing they'll build is another zeal because its cheaper than finishing their zeal item and they'll end up with 80% crit at the same point in the game where they used to have 50% crit. Or to put it another way, you'll have the same AS and AD as RFC plus IE with 20% more crit. Also, people will upgrade one zeal item, but upgrade the 2nd zeal item as their 6th item bc they'll get 100% crit from rfc+zeal and be able to funnel that 1400 gold that used to go to upgrading zeal to their next item. Effectively items after this point gets pushed forward by 1400 gold at the cost of 20% AS for not upgrading the 2nd zeal.
> [{quoted}](name=Kilanost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vujrNylc,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-03T16:26:43.990+0000) > > I think people are going to build zeal, not upgrade it, and go straight for IE from there. They'll have 40% crit with IE at this 1.5 item point that comes 1400ish gold sooner. The AS is not nearly as relevant because most ADCs dont get to stand in one place and autoattack at their max AS due to needing to reposition. Ultimately where we end up is that this trend will continue. The next thing they'll build is another zeal because its cheaper than finishing their zeal item and they'll end up with 80% crit at the same point in the game where they used to have 50% crit. Or to put it another way, you'll have the same AS and AD as RFC plus IE with 20% more crit. Also, people will upgrade one zeal item, but upgrade the 2nd zeal item as their 6th item bc they'll get 100% crit from rfc+zeal and be able to funnel that 1400 gold that used to go to upgrading zeal to their next item. Effectively items after this point gets pushed forward by 1400 gold at the cost of 20% AS for not upgrading the 2nd zeal. BF/Dirk/Sheen/Cutlass/versus Zeal means the Zeal user gets smashed in lane by a competent ADC. Hell Pickaxe + 2 Daggers for Rageblade is probably better.
: > [{quoted}](name=Marshbouy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=skHjxiyq,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-05-02T00:51:16.752+0000) > > both are correct. > > The boards have a few people who are very capable of in depth discussion and facts, your post proves it. > > It's also dominated by knee jerk-reactions and idiocy 90% of the time, proven by the reactions to your post. Really appreciate it. I snap at people sometimes but I am literally just trying to show their end result did not match their own design intent that was given to us.
> [{quoted}](name=135165612343ZJ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=skHjxiyq,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-05-02T00:55:58.812+0000) > > Really appreciate it. I snap at people sometimes but I am literally just trying to show their end result did not match their own design intent that was given to us. I think you misunderstood their goals, or people wanted ADCs to get the Eve treatment. They pushed back crit powerspikes, heavily buffed AD assassins, nerfed lane sustain and armor, nerfed anti squishy burst (so you don't get 2 shot as easily with IE/Shiv/RFC proc but allows the adc to still win if the mage or assassin misses their combo) but kept the damage the same over several autos. Its not even a nerf early buff late situation, crit itemization is gutted early and slightly nerfed at 4+ items. ) Thing is, once this hits you'll all be mad about MF and Lucian (I expect caster ADCs to be ridiculous), but its going to be an assassin meta so it won't be too bad.
Risen29 (NA)
: Your analysis is faulty. Zed needs and benefits from armor pen more than a single crit, because lethality enhances all his ability damage. Zed will still go armor pen items first. He doesnt want to hang around auto attacking a target if he doesn't have to. Same is true of Talon. I cant think of any assassin off the top of my head besides rengar who would even possibly consider prioritizing it - but thats because he is designed to stick around and auto his target. And even then, there's no guarantee it will actually be superior on rengar. It may turn out with testing that he still gets more done with lethality. We'll see. But I am fine with rengar using this. At least then we have some more diversity amongst the ad assassin itemization. Another problem with your conclusions: this is not a buff to just assassins. Its a buff to any mid game carry. Whether it be a burst mage, fighter, juggernaut, or ap assassin. Because now they actually have a mid game window with which to do something before the adc runs away with the whole game. Marksmen could do so much DPS with just a couple items that they practically bursted as hard as anything else in the game, thus rendering other burst classes redundant in the mid game. The adc isnt suppose to out scale them until later.
> [{quoted}](name=Risen29,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zb0pqiwG,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-05-01T23:32:30.740+0000) > > Your analysis is faulty. > Zed needs and benefits from armor pen more than a single crit, because lethality enhances all his ability damage. Zed will still go armor pen items first. He doesnt want to hang around auto attacking a target if he doesn't have to. Same is true of Talon. > > I cant think of any assassin off the top of my head besides rengar who would even possibly consider prioritizing it - but thats because he is designed to stick around and auto his target. And even then, there's no guarantee it will actually be superior on rengar. It may turn out with testing that he still gets more done with lethality. We'll see. But I am fine with rengar using this. At least then we have some more diversity amongst the ad assassin itemization. > > Another problem with your conclusions: this is not a buff to just assassins. Its a buff to any mid game carry. Whether it be a burst mage, fighter, juggernaut, or ap assassin. > Because now they actually have a mid game window with which to do something before the adc runs away with the whole game. > Marksmen could do so much DPS with just a couple items that they practically bursted as hard as anything else in the game, thus rendering other burst classes redundant in the mid game. The adc isnt suppose to out scale them until later. Pretty sure Zed will auto at least once for the sake of his passive. Talon has to finesse it more - ult > rake > auto > Q. Kha definitely autos for his passive. I don't think assassins are going to rush it. Most likely the AD assassin core will be 2x lethality > LW with Stormrazor as a situational item. Bu imot what it does do is help assassins scale better than they used to. I agree that every mid game class gets helped but AD assassins imo get the most out of this.
Rioter Comments
Sasogwa (EUW)
: The thing with the circlejerking on ADC's..
The core problem with the class is that it either has to be a bit overtuned, or it sucks to play for 95% of the players, because league of legends is about *carrying*, and ADCs, unless they're too strong, are the worst at carrying (because to get to the point where you can carry you have to *be* carried a lot of the time) so you either, from the beginning, not allow ranged AA dps to carry as hard as other stuff as a design choice, or you make the class overpowered to account for the fact that a lot of the games, you won't get a team that will allow you to influence the game. It's a major quandary because it's impossible to please everyone. I'm sure people on boards would love to just tell the ADC players to eat shit, but by the same token, why not declare bruisers outdated and obsolete design and tell their players to fuck off?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 16
I think the direction for the Shiv nerf is incorrect: Shiv's problem is its waveclear, but also it's burst which adds a lot of frontloaded damage that every ADC can spec into. A better way to hit both is to not allow Shiv Lightning to critically strike.
: > [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6pJOAgK6,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-03-04T04:27:03.410+0000) > > So make their core build 750-900 more gold? > > That totally won't make ADC completely shit or anything. > > Blind hate over reality. whats exactly your point here? that marksmen are automatically shit, when they dont outscale other carries after 1 item? i hate to break it to you buddy, but adc item builds are exactly 700 to 1000 gold cheaper than those of other carries while their builds also outscale. this is how absolutely idiotic and overpowered their items are atm. i wonder whos more detached from reality here. {{item:3031}} and double {{item:3086}} cost a combined 8600 gold. this is not blind hate. **this is a fact.** 3 mage items like {{item:3285}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3165}} cost around 8950 gold. and this is one of the cheapest builds i could find. dependent if you pick a dcap instead of ludens, you can ramp that up to 9250 gold, which is almost 700 gold more expensive than 3 crit items. 3 bruiser items cost {{item:3071}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3742}} 9100 gold note that this is really fucking generous as ive chosen some pretty cheap builds. you could easily slap another 700 gold on that bruiser build if you switch the cleaver for a triforce, which makes the bruiser build 1100 gold more expensive than the crit build. by increasing marksmen builds by 700 gold, you merely put them on par with other carry itemization. and dont you fucking dare start with marksmen items being individually weaker than bruiser or mage items. because of their cubic scaling, 2 and 3 crit items also synergize stronger with each other and outscale those other builds. a weaker early and midgame is supposed to be a tradeoff for the lategame power of those crit builds, and right now this weakness just isnt there, since adc get to complete their builds too early. their "lategame" is already at 20 minutes. and this was just at 3 items. it doesnt even get better when you look at 6 item builds. {{item:3036}} is dirt cheap, and so is {{item:3026}} a bruiser might go for two more defensive items which individually cost at least 300 to 600 gold more than dominiks or g.a. and thats already the **cheap route**. it looks the same for ap carries. do you understand now just how hilariously cheap and overpowered adc builds are?
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6pJOAgK6,comment-id=000200000003,timestamp=2018-03-06T13:09:28.109+0000) > > it looks the same for ap carries. do you understand now just how hilariously cheap and overpowered adc builds are? imo lower stats instead of increase prices, and make Zeal items unique. What people aren't realizing is that we're seeing the same ADC chain nerf shit we saw last season, but crit is so overtuned that we're not back to ADC 2K17. IE: 65 AD 20% Crit ER: 65 AD 10% Crit 10% CDR BT: 65 AD 20% LS All 3400 MS: 55 AD 10% LS 35 MR Zeal Items: 40 AS 20% Crit, can only buy one (the old Shiv was 40 AS, 20% Crit, 6% MS, didn't have bonus damage to minions, now it's 35% AS 30% Crit 5% MS, and while you could sit on Avarice and generate gold, minion gold was lower then, sitting on Avarice made you worse at killing people, and it delayed your spike - 10% Crit vs 5% AS lost is a net gain of 300 gold. All 2600 This is something of a double dip nerf - your build isn't as cheap because you can't build 3 Zeal items anymore (so instead of 3400 + 2600 + 2600, we need 3400 + 2600 + 3400 on the standard build, or 9200 gold, more expensive than all the builds you listed, though you do point out that they are cheap for their roles), and they're less gold efficient (honestly you probably don't even need to nerf the BF items anymore now that you have nerfed Zeal and made getting 2 impossible as the most crit you can ever have is 50%). Of course, the items may need buffs if you ever nerf supports, or overbuff tanks like Riot does every few months.
: Legit Starting To Actually Hate This Game
the main issue is that there IS a correlation between skill and climbing if you map it out on a spreadsheet. If my personal skill in relation to my team is a 5.5, and I raise it to a 7.5, 8, or even 9, I will win more games on average. However, and this is the problem - your team isn't always a 5 on average. Sometimes they're a 4. Sometimes they're a 3. Sometimes they're a 2. So you can win the games where you are a 7, and your team is a 4, and their team is a 4.5 on average (23 > 22.5). Okay. Gotta carry to climb. What if your team is a 3? Now you don't win. 19 > 22.5. The issue is this *feels* bad, and just like with champs, what *feels* bad is often more important than the statistical reality. When you get 3-4 games in a row where your team is a 2, 3, 4, and your skill level is a 5.5 or 6 or 6.5, then it feels like shit, and it doesn't matter that the stats will regress to the mean and you'll climb over the long haul, we're humans, not machines, and not everyone can deal with that cycle of frustration and helplessness, especially when you put a lot of time and effort into getting better, and getting better doesn't generate an immediate, dopamine-pumping reward (like say, the enemy nexus blowing up, or you dunking on the enemy team), or only generates one over the super long haul. Now, does this negate the fact that you'll win games if your skill level is 7.5 that you won't at 6.5? No. Obviously you can get better (though realistically, not everyone has the time or dedication to get to say, mid Diamond in skill level, which would be an 7-8 compared to the 5 that is Silver-Gold). But it is frustrating, and frustration sucks the fun out of competition.
Iconic (EUW)
: This would defeat the purpose of early game ADCs who scale badly, things like Jhin, Varus, Miss Fortune. Champions who get their spike early and then just simple don't scale as well as the hypercarries like Caitlyn, Twitch and Tristana.
> [{quoted}](name=Blighted,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6pJOAgK6,comment-id=00070002,timestamp=2018-03-05T05:16:23.401+0000) > > This would defeat the purpose of early game ADCs who scale badly, things like Jhin, Varus, Miss Fortune. Champions who get their spike early and then just simple don't scale as well as the hypercarries like Caitlyn, Twitch and Tristana. MF actually low key scales very well with crit and imo it's better right now than lethality - the problem is that if you're building crit than unless you're a MF main/OTP, why are you picking MF
: Thoughts on ADC balance
i used to play adc, and if i ever come back to the game i will likely play adc, so i guess you can call me an adc main fundamental issue with the class is that even when not overtuned they're never an equal part of the game 0-2 items: too weak 3-6 items: too strong The only difference is how long the ADC is at each of those stages, but the stages never change. People are just upset now because ADCs can more reliably get to 3 items, but revert that and you just make the class shit to play, and as much as Riot loves to dumpster champs/items/roles they don't know how to balance for months, it's not exactly a solution people should be advocating here (one consequence of Riot's horrible balancing is that people are quick to advocate that something get destroyed for months unfairly because something ELSE got destroyed for months unfairly, which takes the accountability away from Riot to balance the game properly, i.e, making sure as much stuff is viable and enjoyable to play as possible) rarely any in between. If ADC items had normal power curves rather than this feast or famine power curve, then it'd be easier to balance for both adc mains and everyone else. even in the ADC 2K17 meta they were strong in high elo and pro play, because teams played around the ADC, in lower elo where people aren't really as tryhard (which is a problem in itself, ranked is supposed to be the tryhard queue), adc felt like shit to play and the one game you actually got to late game didn't make up for it. there, i've saved you the trouble of making another 5 adc hate threads. It's just a matter of waiting for Riot to figure out how to do this. also part of the reason adcs can get to 3 items so easily is not just the too cheap zeal items but because supports are really *really* overtuned and you can spec into so much utility without paying for it.
: if you truly think adc have little agency, then play fucking top lane for a change. just play the lane for a week straight so you have some perspective. your class has too much power AND agency. youre implying that the same person who plays on bot lane, which outcome decides for the most part the outcome of games has little to no influence on winning the lane, which is ridiculous. junglers and roams are a poor excuse. they have the same influence on mid and top lane as on bot lane. while i agree, that junglers are a bit too strong at the moment and dont get punished enough for wasting time on failed gank attempts due to catch up xp and slow camp spawn timers, marksmen have a large influence on the outcome of their own lane. unless your support just sits there and auto attacks minions nonstop, YOURE the one in control of the lane. how far you push out, when, if and where you freeze it. youre the one whos lasthitting and influences how the pacing of the lane plays out. if you get aggressively ganked, then you bring yourself into the position to get ganked too much. if you dont get ganks from your team, then youre not manipulating the lane properly to get those ganks. yore shoving in too far, or not far enough at inappropriate times. you dont give your top laner deep wards to tp in from behind or youre doing other stupid shit that costs you the lane.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jAEeWI1J,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-02-16T11:34:46.281+0000) > > if you truly think adc have little agency, then play fucking top lane for a change. just play the lane for a week straight so you have some perspective. > > your class has too much power AND agency. youre implying that the same person who plays on bot lane, which outcome decides for the most part the outcome of games has little to no influence on winning the lane, which is ridiculous. > > junglers and roams are a poor excuse. they have the same influence on mid and top lane as on bot lane. while i agree, that junglers are a bit too strong at the moment and dont get punished enough for wasting time on failed gank attempts due to catch up xp and slow camp spawn timers, marksmen have a large influence on the outcome of their own lane. > > unless your support just sits there and auto attacks minions nonstop, YOURE the one in control of the lane. how far you push out, when, if and where you freeze it. youre the one whos lasthitting and influences how the pacing of the lane plays out. > > if you get aggressively ganked, then you bring yourself into the position to get ganked too much. if you dont get ganks from your team, then youre not manipulating the lane properly to get those ganks. yore shoving in too far, or not far enough at inappropriate times. you dont give your top laner deep wards to tp in from behind or youre doing other stupid shit that costs you the lane. In lane, obviously you need to have good laning mechanics and map awareness, but that responsibility is shared with the support, thus its at best 50/50 (really more like 75/25). With that said, you don't really need to overextend to die 3v2 or get zoned - you just need to lack shoving power to defend against the dive opportunity. Now, yes there's usually always a way to play it better but if they're hard camping like that all you can do is damage control while hopefully your team does stuff. I heard top laners don't like that kind of gameplay. Also Dorans Shield + Fleet + other free sustain + Stopwatch means theres little real kill pressure which means the jungle is even more decisive. Also i tried top for some time, i think top has an agency issue because splitting sucks in this meta and there's too much peel/shielding (Supports basically buy 3 extra ultimates). I agree the overtuned jungle affects all roles. I'm not good at top though. I really only feel like i have agency on tanks, bc I can cc/zone priority targets, but on carries/fighters? Or building even one greedy damage item? Yeah it sucks. > Any ADC that can rule the early game will start to be played in Solo lanes. Well lets look at solo lane ADCs Vayne: its actually bad wr% but its also cancer for no dash top laners to play against, maybe make Condemn push back melees a shorter distance? Lucian: he rules every lane when he's strong, imo I'd make him AP/magic damage - his design is literally perfect as an AP assassin/skirmisher Corki: he'd come back bot if you nerfed his bases and gave him better scaling also change Package Melee need better early game tools against range for sure, other than dashes
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Chaos Open,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1rAF0aJ,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-02-10T16:07:00.614+0000) > > ADCs have been useless for a long time, "ADC 2017" was a meme as a result of how useless they are. They rely so heavily on their team, even if they are insanely fed, if their team can't peel then it's all worthless as they get deleted every fight. A lot of other champs are pretty self reliant, but a fed ADC with a bad team is screwed. ADC in 2017 was a meme because ADC mains can't stand a second of actually being in a state where they aren't deciding the game.
> [{quoted}](name=ChaddyFantome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1rAF0aJ,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2018-02-10T18:59:22.465+0000) > > ADC in 2017 was a meme because ADC mains can't stand a second of actually being in a state where they aren't deciding the game. actually its jungle that decides the game, because jungle mains couldn't deal with the fact that a role with global map pressure and an almost uncontested gold stream should have tradeoffs like falling behind if you fail to use your pressure properly, or being less leveled than the solo laners.
: I hate to point fingers at one guy, as Riot is a company with hundreds of people, but... In all honesty I'm going to have to pin most of it on Ghostcrawler. In fact, if you look at GCs track record alone before his LOL endeavors, it's an objectively terrible track record. Slowly but surely, GC has moved Leagues runes system from the original (a huge, triple treed system with no keystones, that allowed for the most skill expression because you go all in one and get the most stats or go slightly in 3 different trees for varied stats) to the current Keystone-centric model. **Guys. HE DID LEGIT THE EXACT. SAME. THING. IN WORLD OF WARCRAFT.** WoW used to have the same talent trees League once did (no keystones, huge skill expression) to now having a system where every 5 levels you choose one of 3 things that are basically keystones. And players HATED him for it, and still do. Don't ask me what makes GC so attractive, cause I can't see it. And to add onto that, he barely plays League and knows little about it. I despise the man's practices in all honesty.
> [{quoted}](name=The Goodest Boy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HLZAALfF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-03T01:22:48.636+0000) > > > Don't ask me what makes GC so attractive, cause I can't see it. And to add onto that, he barely plays League and knows little about it. I despise the man's practices in all honesty. the same thing that makes any trust fund kid or golden parachute CEO attractive - they know people, and who you know in a capitalist economy is much more important than what you know.
: Ah, the classic "Nerf the supports, not the ADCs" argument.
> [{quoted}](name=Le Kaikai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9p6LxHoL,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-25T17:44:05.798+0000) > > Ah, the classic "Nerf the supports, not the ADCs" argument. And you didn't exactly refute the argument, so?
Rioter Comments
: "being able to build a teamcomp without marksmen is one of our goal"
Yasuo presents an interesting case - he was designed to be a melee ADC who could go bot. But if he's strong enough to go bot then he becomes a fairly terrifying solo laner. But I think the solution is simple: Wind Wall: Cooldown ~~26/24/22/20/18~~ > 18 at all ranks The wall slowly drifts forward 50 units over 3.75 seconds, ~~blocking all enemy projectiles except turret attacks~~. > blocking all basic attacks; at rank 5, this skill's description changes to blocking all enemy projectiles except turret attacks. AOE projectiles that are only contacted by part of the wall only have that part blocked.
: "being able to build a teamcomp without marksmen is one of our goal"
Basically need some kind of melee only item that gives them and their lane partner 50% extra exp while being something of a mini Tabis (50 HP, 5% reduced damage from basic attacks for stats, -15 damage from basic attacks outside 300 range at level 1 only). This solves the problem for immoble melee sharing xp, while providing a means to not get harassed out of lane instantly at level (melees become more threatening to range at level 3 on but they have to get there first) I guess call it Doran's Gage or something. Then you maybe buff phage so the MS bonus is 30 for melee and still only 10 for range. Maybe buff Ghost for melee as well (CD, MS, MS ramp) so that it's a more viable alternative to Flash for immobile melee. I think the idea is to support the kill lane idea (though you'd take an engage support not a second bruiser, or at least the second bruiser has to act as a support, not share CS, which is generally the problem with the old kill lane concept - but Leona, Alistar, Braum, Naut, hell even J4, Darius can work. A Yasuo/Braum lane would be pretty disgusting and can probably work even now (maybe gotta take E level 2 though). However the traditional marksman/support lane will still outscale because duh range and higher dps. A sample "no marksman" comp Top: Kled Jungle: Shyvana Mid: Ahri Bot Carry: Yasuo Support: Braum Another sample: Top: Maokai Jungle: Kha'Zix Mid: Twisted Fate Bot: Garen Support: Karma Finally a "still have a marksman but not in bot: Top: Gnar Jungle: Kindred Mid: Brand Bot: Jarvan IV Support: Leona Truth be told, I'm not super excited about this as an ADC main, but I'm really interested and curious to find out how Riot goes about this. I do think the standardization of the marksman/support lane is due to much deeper systems than adding an item or two to patch it up but it definitely seems viable. I've always said that if marksmen are being pushed out of bot then the class is in a godawful state but i do think the lane needs to be shook up a bit. Certainly there's a chance it feels like "ADC 2K17" if Riot pushes this change though, but I don't think it'll be that bad if played properly.
: wanna know a secret: it's not better botlane wins, it's better support wins.
I think ADC damage is too high at around 3 items+ but we need more agency early in the game to compensate. I think the issue is that supports are so strong and we get so much free lifesteal there's no real reason to ever buy it before item 4. Take that away and the IE Zeal Zeal path becomes a lot riskier and something you get when you're ahead. So basically my list of changes Lower free lifesteal (maybe replace the lifesteal rune with flat AD) Change Fleet Footwork to something else, or take out the LS component and add a bigger speed boost, ala Jhin. Nerf heal and shield items, give Enchanters more weaknesses in lane Increase ADC base AD and AD growth a little bit, also maybe a bit of base HP/HP/level (not sure about this one) Reduce Zeal by 5% crit, Zeal items by -10% crit each Reduce BT Cost to 3400 to make it a more viable purchase early, and synchronize it with the other BF sword items At the same time, tanks are overtuned as well and you need overtuned ADC damage to deal with them because tank mains whine whenever they die after getting focused, and they REALLY whine when they die to anything other than an ADC with triple zeal + LDR.
Rioter Comments
: Blame China and their PC cafes. Riot is tuning the game to their desires to meet the time durations they want most if all. Someone posted some survey results between the regions, NA didn't like the short games, but China and Korea liked it better. Two countries with huge PC cafe business and riots favorite children.
Well, assuming this true, it's like, okay? So what? China and Korea have more customers. So obviously what they want matters more. Unless you feel like just because you're Americans who speak English, Riot should cater to NA more than other regions despite being - the worst solo queue region of the "major" regions - the least successful professional region of the "major" regions - the most immature and unserious fanbase - a playerbase that is not only small relatively but small in relation to its population So if Korea wants shorter games, why the fuck should Riot cater to NA over Korea?
: The disparity of subject matter between the boards and Reddit is incredible. It's because Riot's PR is always on Reddit spewing memes 24/7 and getting them to suck their dicks, while as actually concerning questions are raised here and written off as salt by Reddit.
> [{quoted}](name=ScHoolboy Quinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xPcG4PE0,comment-id=0020,timestamp=2018-01-07T17:03:37.309+0000) > > The disparity of subject matter between the boards and Reddit is incredible. It's because Riot's PR is always on Reddit spewing memes 24/7 and getting them to suck their dicks, while as actually concerning questions are raised here and written off as salt by Reddit. If anything, Riot caters to Boards too much. 90% of what Boards complains about is not an issue and the 10% that is an issue they just parroted from pros/top Challengers who they do rightfully listen to anyway. League of Legends discourse would be markedly improved if this board was deleted.
DNFVixen (NA)
: Lets see #1 The new Rune system is worse then the season 6 mastery change, It has made things that where snowbally a lot more so. It doesn't mater if you are a tank or a squishy there are champions absolutely deleting you in 2-3 hits. The new rune system is so unhealthy for this game it has turned a 20-30 min game (god I miss the 30-45 min games of season 5) into a 10-15 min fuckfest. The power pike of the new rune system is so high that the game has been completely turned on it's head. #2 Leathality was riots #1 mistake now it is #2 but still needs to be removed from the game, It made a game that WAS balanced turned on it's fucking head. A lot of diamond and above players complained about leathality unless they where assassin mains or ADCs and even then some where STILL complaining. When leathality was introduced it honestly killed off the early game late game champion aspect of the game, before leathality you actually had to think about more then who can carry and who cannot. You had to think "ok this champion counters whis champion but this champion is also great early game" or "this champion will be a bit weaker in the early phase but hardcarry in the late game but also counter thier ____" The introduction of leathality killed a big part of the game and noone actually stopped to think about it or realise it. There is no early or lategame champions anymore really. Lategame champions have become a complete thing of the past. Rubis has the best explanation why leathality is bad in his post from a year ago. #3 The client is still too heavy on CPUs and lags on a lot of computers. We have 4 computers in this house ranging from lowtech to a good gaming rig and it lags on every one of them. . #4 League of oneshots. Riot keeps pushing this into a game where it is flashy and quick. Honestly riot you have been steadily ruining this game ever since season 6. How I think riot could fix this. #1 Revert the Runes and Masteries back to what it was in season 5. You had the Mastery system fine tuned in season 5 to perfection. . #2 Delete leathality all together, remove it and fucking make it begone from existence. Put armor pen back as the main source to get through armor and leave it on 2-3 items!! actually the last whisper upgrades where a great idea. . #3 Get someone working on the client PLEASE!!! . #4 Stop trying to increase damage!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For the love of fucking christ. Honestly you had things perfect at season 5. You had your carries killing things you had your bruisers damaging while being tankyish, you had supports supporting the team in whatever way they could, mages bursted, assassins would take out the ADCs, and tanks would laugh at anyone trying to kill them except the ADC who are meant to shred them. You had a wonderful and amazing game from seasons 3-5, that is WHY it got as popular as it did, you had things BALANCED people where having FUN. Alot of the changes you made from season 6 on have done nothing but hurt the wonderful game you had. You think quick flashy plays are what will make you the most money when are wrong riot dead wrong. What makes you money is having a game where things are balanced and fun, and people enjoy watching games that are fair and balanced when the REAL bigplays are made. The REAL Bigplays are done in a balanced and fair game. BTW been here for YEARS so I seen seasons 3 4 5 6 7 and pre 8.
> [{quoted}] > > You had a wonderful and amazing game from seasons 3-5, that is WHY it got as popular as it did, you had things BALANCED people where having FUN. Alot of the changes you made from season 6 on have done nothing but hurt the wonderful game you had. you guys asked for this. Yall asked for more snowbally games because apparently people couldn't "solo carry" anymore because the game was too "team based". Yall asked for Rift and Baron to break stalling (yeah mage permastall was dumb but all you had to do was give minions scaling MR or something). Yall asked for "more impactful dragons". 80% of the changes yall complain about now you asked for in Season 5, 6 and 7.
Lowvyr (NA)
: Pretty sad when URF is more balanced than SR right lol
> [{quoted}](name=Lowvyr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzaMp8KV,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-29T06:00:06.577+0000) > > Pretty sad when URF is more balanced than SR right lol Woops someone finally said it. Now you know why Riot is desperately trying to kill the mode; it's a better mode than SR without them actively trying to balance it.
: Which champs do you feel need to be next for VGUs next year?
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Unironic SJW

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