: Yeah I try to win, which means I take into consideration what is the biggest threat to my chance of winning. And Until I see otherwise, Yi is the biggest threat, therefore I permanently ban Yi Every game. doesnt matter what side of the field they are on. Seriously hinder team trust and cooperation? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I havent seen any of that for a long time. All I see are people who want to puff out thier chest and brag about how OP they are. They chase kills and showboat, completely ignoring towers and using "I got most kills on the team, so I'm right and ur trash" as an excuse. And If you go into Ranked only knowing how to play ONE CHAMPION out of 100+ different champions, then why are you going in ranked. As I said, If someone banned my champ.....I PICK ANOTHER. Thats why I make it a note to have knowledge of how to play MORE THAN ONE CHAMP. Ever wonder why there are so many dodges? Because people dont get the 1/100 champ that they know how to play, so they throw a tantrum and quit. Its banning phase, Yi got banned. I didnt force him to blurt out how he was going to intentionally throw. Brains? Yeah I got that, I recognized the biggest risk/liability to my game and acted on it! Respect? Yeah no I have no respect for ranked. That got beaten out of me by people like yi who dont get thier way so completely nuke the match Kinda like the draven adc who quits, throws a tantrum in spawn and spends the entire game hurling insults from spawn because I, as his support, Had 3cs. I did not force him to pick xin and intentionally go 0/11 while spamming to report me over /all chat again, Its banning phase, I banned a champ. What is it riot keeps saying? Its not about what someone does but how you react to it? or something like that. He went into ranked only knowing how to play ONE champ. That champ got banned. I did not FORCE him to throw, I did not FORCE him to intentionally feed. I did not FORCE him to spam calling for reports and acting like a child who didnt get the candybar they wanted.
You assume that yi is going to be your worst enemy, which is fair; why do you unjustly assume that ANY yi on your team will be your ultimate liability? You don’t know how he’s gonna do. If anything he may have much higher win rates and stats. I mean you sum up the difficulty of cooperation in solo queue quite well. Now think how much harder it would be if some douche banned someone else’s champion for a personal, unfounded reason. Even the most basic levels of trust that exists is going to melt. If you’re going to judge one tricks that badly, you don’t know the number of people in high elo that one trick. Look at singed420, yassuo, pink ward etc. Just because they don’t have a backup champion doesn’t mean they’re bad players. In terms of respect, if you don’t have even the most basic and trivial respect to understand that a player wants to pick a champion then you deserve what you get. You don’t need to be a saint, but one who doesn’t respect others shouldn’t get any either. That’s the real world, and it’s not there to adhere to your special needs. This is the worst part though; you literally admit that what you did is a bitch move and you say you didn’t force him. Yeah you didn’t hold him at gunpoint to int but you damn did give him a reason to troll. This doesn’t justify him but at least he has a reason. And that by itself makes him better than you, who hit on him without any justification whatsoever. If you want an ideal world where you can grief on others like that and avoid all consequences, I’m sorry to tell you that in this world, actions have consequences.
: and where is that written in Riots ToS? Hmm? Show me the exact wording. Guess what, Real world isnt there to coddle you and what you want. I have many MANY negative experiences with Yi Players on BOTH sides. So As a result it has become a permaban for me. I dont care what team Yi is on, I ban yi ever match because I can focus better without it. So Yes, it is a douche movie But guess what, That shit happens. If someone banned my champ..y'know what i would do?...... PICK ANOTHER CHAMP!. Not sit there and throw a friggin tantrum and talk about how I am gonna intentionally throw the match and report the one who banned my champ for trolling because -I CHOSE- to intentionally throw. Sorry, again, I am playing to win. Not to coddle you and your need to always feel special.
Idk, I’m too lazy to pull out the exact tos but I know that it says you must try your best to win, which you say you do. I also know that banning somebody else’s intended pick hurts your chances of winning, because it will seriously hinder team trust and cooperation, because he may troll, and because he lost his possible best champion (or only good champion if he’s a one trick). I just don’t understand why you don’t have the respect or brains to understand that your yi wanted to play yi. I don’t understand how you think you’re completely justified when you not only bashed on him like that for personal arbitrary reasons, but also hurt your own chances of winning. “Oh a teammate banned my champ, I’ll pick someone that will please the teammate instead” - literally no one ever
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: My thoughts on this: I think you're misdiagnosing Kassadins problems. DFT, PoM, the old minion aggro; those are all just band-aids trying to cover intended holes in Kassadins kit to keep him balanced. --- DFT was NOT Kassadin's primary keystone. It was just players like Apdo abusing the poke it gave on him to win trades in lane and basically get through his laning phase. Literally useless lategame. Nothing Aery can't do. --- your complaint about minion aggro is the literal reason they changed the minion aggro. To prevent mid and top laners from mindlessly spamming their poke spell with no punishment. If you want to keep the enemy low you're gonna have to thin out the wave beforehand so you cant just do R > Q > back off over and over until theyre low enough for you to blow them up in one rotation and/or zone them off CS. Kassadin is an assassin and he should be taking opportunities for him to 100-0 someone or make roams, not playing like a mage and poking until you get them into their death threshhold. --- Going off that, Kassadin is meant to have a very weak laning phase. He needs to. He's probably the strongest assassin lategame since his combo is on such a low CD, and he can easily get in and out with no problems. If you were to give him an even okay laning phase it would be wayyyyy too easy to just glide through laning phase straight into the mid and late game. To be balanced Kass needs to be vulnerable early; to poke, ganks, waveclear... because he excels at what he does once he gets there. --- Now yes new Presence of Mind is going to be much less useful to him than the current one, but, again, he shouldnt really have that rune in the first place. Kassadins lategame weakness is supposed to be he needs to limit his ult uses if he wants to be able to stay in a fight so he cant just RRRRRRR all over a teamfight and not get hit by anything and just pick up kill after kill with no chance of escape. This is pretty much the only reason he dips into precision, except for maybe Coup de Grace, so getting attack speed won't be a problem if he's not using this rune. Taking Absolute Focus/Manaflow Band or Sudden Impact/Relentless Hunter for your secondaries will work fine. --- He is sitting at a sub-50 WR% but if anything thats because right now his build is RoA > Seraphs/Lichbane and if he goes tear (which he really should since it's pretty strong right now as well as giving him massive mana when combined with RoA. However this build takes forever to scale up, and he can't rush the Steraphs because he needs HP from the RoA to not get blown the hell up as soon as he goes in. I think if he is going to get buffed it should be to his HP growth/resistances per level or buffing his passive to make him tankier so he can just go straight to Archangels and Lichbane without having to crank out the gold for RoA first. His would make him scale faster so he can reach his mid/late game carry status faster, keeping up with the other assassins that spike with one item (duskblade users, katarina and akali w/ gunblade, etc.) ---
> [{quoted}](name=VIRTU0SO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ipGzNKxG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-02T22:14:20.575+0000) > > My thoughts on this: > > I think you're misdiagnosing Kassadins problems. DFT, PoM, the old minion aggro; those are all just band-aids trying to cover intended holes in Kassadins kit to keep him balanced. > > --- > > DFT was NOT Kassadin's primary keystone. It was just players like Apdo abusing the poke it gave on him to win trades in lane and basically get through his laning phase. Literally useless lategame. Nothing Aery can't do. > --- > your complaint about minion aggro is the literal reason they changed the minion aggro. To prevent mid and top laners from mindlessly spamming their poke spell with no punishment. If you want to keep the enemy low you're gonna have to thin out the wave beforehand so you cant just do R > Q > back off over and over until theyre low enough for you to blow them up in one rotation and/or zone them off CS. Kassadin is an assassin and he should be taking opportunities for him to 100-0 someone or make roams, not playing like a mage and poking until you get them into their death threshhold. > --- > Going off that, Kassadin is meant to have a very weak laning phase. He needs to. He's probably the strongest assassin lategame since his combo is on such a low CD, and he can easily get in and out with no problems. If you were to give him an even okay laning phase it would be wayyyyy too easy to just glide through laning phase straight into the mid and late game. To be balanced Kass needs to be vulnerable early; to poke, ganks, waveclear... because he excels at what he does once he gets there. > --- > Now yes new Presence of Mind is going to be much less useful to him than the current one, but, again, he shouldnt really have that rune in the first place. Kassadins lategame weakness is supposed to be he needs to limit his ult uses if he wants to be able to stay in a fight so he cant just RRRRRRR all over a teamfight and not get hit by anything and just pick up kill after kill with no chance of escape. This is pretty much the only reason he dips into precision, except for maybe Coup de Grace, so getting attack speed won't be a problem if he's not using this rune. Taking Absolute Focus/Manaflow Band or Sudden Impact/Relentless Hunter for your secondaries will work fine. > --- > > He is sitting at a sub-50 WR% but if anything thats because right now his build is RoA > Seraphs/Lichbane and if he goes tear (which he really should since it's pretty strong right now as well as giving him massive mana when combined with RoA. However this build takes forever to scale up, and he can't rush the Steraphs because he needs HP from the RoA to not get blown the hell up as soon as he goes in. I think if he is going to get buffed it should be to his HP growth/resistances per level or buffing his passive to make him tankier so he can just go straight to Archangels and Lichbane without having to crank out the gold for RoA first. His would make him scale faster so he can reach his mid/late game carry status faster, keeping up with the other assassins that spike with one item (duskblade users, katarina and akali w/ gunblade, etc.) > > --- Thanks for reading and the reply, but I need to disagree with some of your points. Dft was his primary keystone - we can’t check anymore but it was the more commonly picked one in s7, the people in the Kassadin Reddit page had multiple pages explaining that and thunderlords (many picking tld) and almost all kassadins in pro play (worlds) picked dft over Thunderlords. The last two points can be checked. It wasn’t just dopa and his fans. Plus I thought it was better late game because of the higher ap ratio and the ability to affect multiple people at once? Regarding your point on his early game, yes it needs to be weak. But it already was long before the minion changes. Throwing out his q already required him to eat ranged harass, and the ability itself does little damage. If he hits level 6 without significant disadvantages then at that point he should be able to survive further harassment. You and I can discuss all day on whether the minion aggro changes were healthy or not, but it doesn’t change how it was the only crutch of kassadins early game, and by removing that his early game was gutted. If back then he had the ability to trade back, now he doesn’t. Meddler did say that he may definitely need help in his QGTs explaining the minion aggro changes (which after he ate his words). That’s what I feel he needs compensation for. Sure his late game was marginally buffed by pom, but the Roa tear build takes much longer to scale than before, making his mid game worse too. If he was dependent on using qs for poke 1-5 and had a sub 50 win rate even then, he should get compensation if that only way of trading back is removed.
Rioter Comments
: I mean this is basically what I do: 1. **acknowledge that the chat just became toxic and know how to identify a player that may trigger you.** 2. **choose to not instigate or respond to that behavior** -if you chose to respond, even mild toxicity may be considered low-toxicity and can add to your toxicity rating. -If conversation is beginning to lean towards toxicity, responses can make toxic players sour really, really quickly. 3. **Mute the behavior if you are at risk at responding in a toxic manner.** -if you feel yourself being triggered, or about to be triggered immediately step away from the conversation by muting that individual. -do not let yourself be baited. -do not tell the individual that they are muted -do not tell the individual that you are going to report them -just mute them without saying or instigating anything. 4. **Play the game out as best as you can and do your best to not even acknowledge the toxic individual, or individuals.** -note: in the case of toxic premades just /muteall. even if they all decide to report you, If you are responding appropriately the system will consider your report more valid than theirs. And so, your 1 report on each teammate is worth more than their 4 reports on you because yours is actually valid and you did not instigate any toxicity. 5. **When you get to the report screen, report all the players involved and move on.** ---- Seems to me also, that your getting into a habit of it. What you should do is work on reversing that habit or do something low key and less serious and then come-back to league. This is all psychological. You tend to act the same way around certain stimulus. The only way to reverse this behavior is to reverse your reaction to the stimulus. Work on taking the game less seriously. Maybe, try playing support? lol. GL to you
: Uhh think of yourself being in a public place sriously you basically are you're just embarrasing yourself
> [{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=0Ftzv24A,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-21T05:53:46.160+0000) > > Uhh think of yourself being in a public place > > sriously you basically are > > you're just embarrasing yourself Public place as in by making this boards post or when flaming back in game? Just to clarify.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 16
Hey Meddler, Any changes planned for our void ninja kassadin? He seems to be struggling because of the minion aggro changes, along with the indirect nerfs of coup de grace and aery. Thanks!
: I've browsed the top comments and I've seen no one saying this, so I'll do it myself: > The boards are the official website made by Riot to DISCUSS gameplay; we should be able to have discussions on adc strength, game pacing, **CertainlyT champion pool**, and so on, as long as we keep discussion civil, constructive, and within the boards. ADC strength? Game pacing? Sure, go ahead. "CertainlyT champion pool", for whatever that means? No. If you're out to get some heads cut, fuck you. That's not "DISCUSSING" in all caps, that's just being an ass. Discussing means talking about the designs, not the designers. (Especially since CertainlyT is obviously not working alone and that a ton of other people have to vouch on his ideas before we players get to see them.)
> [{quoted}](name=DeathBurs7,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AGnm2KoY,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2018-01-23T13:35:46.353+0000) > > I've browsed the toop comments and I've seen no one saying this, so I'll do it myself: > > ADC strength? Game pacing? Sure, go ahead. "CertainlyT champion pool", for whatever that means? No. If you're out to get some heads cut, fuck you. That's not "DISCUSSING" in all caps, that's just being an ass. Discussing means talking about the designs, not the designers. (Especially since CertainlyT is obviously not working alone and that a ton of other people have to vouch on his ideas before we players get to see them.) You completely misunderstood what I meant. I'll remind you of another sentence in that same paragraph - " I would guarantee you that a lot of people in the boards are good people, and that the intention of the boards is **not to publicly humiliate Riot**." I'm saying we should be discuss the CHAMPION POOL, as in the gameplay characters he created, NOT the CertainlyT champion DESIGN TEAM (which is what you're assuming). I wouldn't embrace or condone public shaming of CertainlyT or the design team members. And while I do hate the champions he created, what I would discuss constructively would be on those champions' problems, potentially how to fix that, and how to avoid those kinds of unhealthiness in the future, keeping discussion within the champion kits.
VvVVvV (NA)
: If the person who made this post was not in on the forums development then who are you to say what the purpose of the boards is for? Who are you to decide what it should be used for or what it can expand to be about? The post you linked in your book was not ignored. many people responded to it. Just because a Rioter didn't respond doesn't mean the boards is not serving its purpose. I really see this post as just a attempt to bring attention to the post you linked tbh. And to be even more honest imo when it comes to complaining about a designer then if it were me i would rather put that in a support ticket.
I mean it's obvious isn't it? Constructive discussion and feedback is the ideal goal for any gameplay forum. Do you really have to be part of the development forum to know that? Are you saying that constructive discussion between players and developers is not the ideal goal? What would YOU use the boards FOR then? If I wanted to bring attention to that post, I would have done it when it first came out, or a few days after when it left the front page. The linked post is just an example of how a constructive post that got ignored by RIOT, not by the players. I don't see why you're calling this as an attempting to bring attention to that post.
Skorch (NA)
: Sorry to say but this post is falling on deaf ears. Posts have showed up for YEARS telling posters to stay constructive, dont witch hunt, etc... but they just dont. Likewise as good as it is Riot responding to controversial opinions. What does it do? For instance lets say "What is the counterplay to ADCs" 1. Being a Rioter, that sentence by itself sounds an awful lot like just another condescending "ADC OP" post. Sure you couldve ACTUALLY asked the question legitimately curious but its hard to tell that through text, especially with how toxic the boards is known for being. Another issue is what wouldve happened if the Rioter ACTUALLY answered that? Downvote bar to the millions, and hundreds of comments basically saying the "Rioter is wrong" "Lel balance team noobs, that is so incorrect, I bet they are bronze trash" "No, ADCs are OP" type of things. And on the certainlyT thing, as Sparkle said, it is probably highly inappropriate to talk about a co-worker who isnt in your team. You cant speak for them. Likewise there is no way CertainlyT would EVER come to the boards. Reason 1 being he is designing a lot right now so he is probably pretty busy. And 2 because he would be instantly castrated. What on earth would CertainlyT be able to do by talking about himself on the boards? NO defence will redeem him in the eyes of people who hate his champions. I am glad to see you are a very optimistic person when it comes to the boards. But the likelihood of anything changing is sadly VERY grim. Especially since if the mods do anything to change it they are witch hunted themselves.
Hey Skorch, I wish I could say all the negative things are false, but alas, you are correct in many things you said. Regarding the adc issue, I guess it does feel like a challenge or a trap in some ways. But I also feel like other threads want to just have a discussion and that the posters respect others' opinions, so there's a problem with interpretation on the purpose of a post as well, as you can't have a productive discussion if there is no debate/disagreement. This goes back to the problem of a lot of constructive and useful threads going unanswered because of potential witch hunting and quote abuse. And the downvote + circlejerking, the same issues on the players' behalf. Still, the likelihood of changing is grim, as you said, but not impossible. If this post changes even 1 out of the thousands (or tens of thousands, not sure) of people that use/read threads, so that future posts become constructive (maybe strong languaged) but welcome, then it at least did something.
: I wonder if you would agree that some of this is a consequence of the way the Boards is organized in the first place. The thing about internet forums is this: you *have* to be a little polarizing to get attention. There's decent research out there claiming that this is just a consequence of public discourse; inflammatory rhetoric just generates more views, plain and simple. Would you have any suggestions on what could be done to fix that from a technical standpoint? I have struggled a lot as part of the volunteer team to come up with creative ways to try to get more constructive, thoughtful content on the front page of the Boards. I'm not saying that you don't have a point; getting Rioters to wade into these discussions would help, I think. But I'm interested (as a non-Rioter), in what else we could do to make the environment more conducive to helpful discourse flourish in the first place. In other words, what is something that the Boards team could do that makes conversation with *everyone*, not just Rioters, more helpful and interesting? We've tried pinning good threads on the Gameplay sub-board, we've tried megathreads for popular topics, and we've tried making Let's Discuss pages for new champs or systems. I would argue that those had a minimal effect on actually improving content, though; numbers 2 and 3 were somewhat effective in reducing spam, but not at improving discourse. So that's where I'm coming from.
Hey Buddy, Yeah, agreed that polarizing posts will get more attention than non-polarizing ones. I myself made a post a few months ago on how it would be better for more Riot-player interaction to occur, where everything was sugar coated. That post got 2 upvotes and 3 comments max. 2 months after that I made a post using much stronger language and a much more negative tone on a very similar topic. That post got 140+ upvotes and about 300 comments. As for your question on suggestions to fix the boards on a technical standpoint, my recommendation is to let other players and/or mods to categorize posts into either a 'constructive' one or a 'venting' one, where the venting posts are more complaining without much evidence. And among the 'constructive' posts, the two are then categorized into 'constructive normal' or 'constructive strong language', where the latter posts offer critical and positive feedback but using stronger language. In my opinion, Kasarana's post regarding CertainlyT champs linked above would be categorized into 'constructive normal', while this post itself would be categorized into 'constructive strong language'. Although I say in my original post that combative language is bad, strong language that criticizes gameplay and gameplay alone (and NOT Riot directly) is fine. I don't have a lot of boards experience so I'm not sure this would work, and it would be a bit more tedious, but that's just my quick thought.
Sparkle (NA)
: Okay here is a possibly controversial personal opinion from a Rioter perspective: **I don't think it's ever appropriate for a Rioter to comment on another individuals' work. Period.** You won't catch me in topics that are addressed to someone who is not named "Riot Sparkle". You narrow your chances of getting a response down to almost nothing if you make a topic like that - either that person answers or no one does IMHO. I've actually seen Rioters give answers to controversial questions here on Boards in the past - ex: [Maple's comment on Yasuo recently](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Otbcp5TK-were-buffing-yasuo-because-he-has-a-large-playerbase?comment=001b) - but again, only Rioters who have the info to answer can answer. I don't comment on projects my team is not working on and, let's be honest, not all teams seem to be equally welcomed here on Boards.
Hey Riot Sparkle, Thanks for your response. And apologies for my late reply. I understand your opinion that it's inappropriate for Rioters to comment on others' work, I understand your reasoning why, and I have no right to force you to think otherwise. That being said, the CertainlyT case is very uniquely frustrating in that sense for the players. The generally agreed upon consensus is that all 6 of his champions have been balance issues, 3 of them are agreed to be very toxic and unfun to play against, and 2 of them are the most hated and the second most hated champion in the game. This is not boards-exclusive; if you check lolking or opgg ban rates, Zoe and Yasuo are almost ALWAYS top 10 in the ban charts. Zoe has also been picked or banned in pro play, and Kalista has been the same while strong (100% ban red side worlds), or is a 'i want to lose' ticket when she's weak. But we hardly if ever get a response on this topic because of the reasons you and I outlined. I could discuss all day why Zoe, Yasuo, and Kalista are unhealthy, but that's not the point of this post. So what are the players supposed to do in this sense? I know I sound really combative right now, but it is truly frustrating to get no replies on the topic. Do we wait and pray that CertainlyT or a member of the champ design team gives a response on how to fix this or how they'll avoid mistakes like these in the future? Or do we just need to accept that these champions are going to keep coming? Again, I sound really combative in this case, and I apologize for that. I just want to say that it's not directed at anyone personally, it's just my frustration towards the issue of those particular champions.
  Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 19
Hey Meddler, I have a question regarding the counterplay paragraph. While I understand that counterplay cannot be placed in every single part of a champion kit, what is the counterplay to adcs? You can't dodge autoattacks, stop rng crits or stop their often unconditional steroids. It can often be frustrating to be hit with ranged, sustained, reliable damage without being able to do much about it. This is much worse if you consider crit and statikk shiv, which can easily chunk squishies, knowing there is nothing you can do about targeted autoattacks whatsoever. After the assassin rework and support itemization overloads, instabursting them (the previous counterplay to adcs) became much harder as well. With fairly mobile adcs like Vayne or Tristana that are really strong right now, this is EVEN WORSE. So what IS the counterplay to adcs? I'm not saying adcs are that seriously overpowered, but they seem to be free from the counterplay concept imo. If every other class has it attached to it, the marksmen class should as well.
: What champ abilities would you combine?
Passive: {{champion:74}} Q: {{champion:74}} W: {{champion:35}} E: {{champion:57}} R: {{champion:17}} O god i can’t imagine the sheer cancer from this
: I personally think that CertainlyT is not fleshed out for the League's Design Philosophy.
Agree with everything you said. CertainlyT is largely at fault, but riot is accountable as well, as they don’t know when to tell him no. This results in the overloaded abominations known as Kalista (useless or godly), Zoe (70% ban since release on opgg), and yasuo (enough said). And then other rioters defend CertainlyT from criticism when a lot of it is valid, which really annoys a lot of the players, stating his creativity (which he is, but other champions have much more creative designs without being toxic to play against, like how August’s Jhin is much more creative than Zoe imo but not nearly as toxic). CertainlyT would be so much better off if he has a team that keeps him within his bounds. An example of this is the Warwick vgu (the one thing keeping the player base from flat out abhorring CertainlyT), which is one of the most balanced and fairest kits to play against, able to outplay and be outplayed across all levels. This was successful because he was restricted in his rework area, where the main goal was to make him beginner friendly but give a much higher skill ceiling. Honestly I hope riot uses him properly, either giving him a team that knows to keep CertainlyT limited, or leave him within the vgu team that innately has boundaries. He has shown to make much better designs in this environment. I really don’t understand why riot didn’t do this earlier, or why riot didn’t give ct the restrictions when designing Zoe. If he can’t accept the limits, then he shouldn’t be designing champions at all. Being fun to play is good, but being fair to play against is just as important. As long as fun but fair champions like jhin, Kayn, or viktor exist, “creative and fun champs” can’t be an excuse to make toxic kits.
: Firing CertainlyT
He DEFINITELY shouldn’t be fired, for the same reasons you outlined, but... I have to disagree that just as many people like the toxic and unfun kits that he designed. Kalista, Yasuo and Zoe are among the most hated champions in the game, and all of his excluding Thresh have been balance nightmares. There are far more people that want them removed than those who think they have great kits. A good champion kit must be fair to play against as well, something his champions lack severely. I feel like certainlyT can be a part of riot, but he shouldn’t be used to make any more new champions. I mean he lead one of the most balanced and successful reworks (Warwick). Why use him for something he’s very suboptimal at (and VERY VERY HATED) when he’s proven he can do something else much better? He’ll be much better as part of the rework team.
Perma CC (NA)
: Just make his windwall have a healthbar and he is fine.
Could be part of the rework. Not too sure that would be enough alone but it's quite a good start imo.
: ***
This is the worst argument I've ever seen. So you're saying every single person must play every single champion to know the game? There' a thing called champion statistics. There's a thing called playing against champions. You don't need to have played 100 games of a champion to know that champion and judge accordingly.
: I just never understand you...bandwagon haters. Always bitching about favoritism. It simply makes fucking sense If you have 1 person wanting A 5 people wanting B And 500 people wanting C YOU DO C EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Dude what a way to attack me instead of my argument. Your attitude by itself shows me you're no better off, if not worse than, the 'bandwagon haters' you mentioned. The gameplay is not about majority, it's about balance. IF a champion is really weak, then number of players shouldn't be the determinant of who gets buffed and who doesn't. But hey, I'll give you the benefit of doubt and say majority wins every time. Then BOOM, Yasuo is deleted. Yes, it's horrible and unfair for gameplay balance, but majority wins, as your argument says, simple.
Rioter Comments
: Hey Dakuda330. This might sound hard to believe, but even though we don't always respond, **we actually do read the boards every day.** This is sort of taking it off-topic, but I think you're probably right that we don't really engage on the boards as much as we used to. Just to be super real with you, I guess I can share my thoughts about some problems we have with the boards: First, **the boards are really small compared to other English-language League communities.** If you're just looking at these official boards, you might think the League community is tiny. But it's not. It's just that most players ignore the boards. Basically our policy when it comes to engaging with players is to go wherever players go, whether that's Discord, Twitter, Facebook, or whatever other League community pops up. We don't really care about controlling the community or trying to make our official boards the biggest community—we'd rather let players decide where to go and then join them as members there. I personally post on [the League of Legends subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/) a lot. At any given point in time there's at least 30,000 people online simultaneously there. That dwarfs these boards by a lot. One other thing I've been thinking about recently is that there are actually fundamental problems with these boards. The biggest is that **there's almost no reason to go here unless you have a complaint about the game.** Since we really do read everything on the boards, players with issues know they can come here and get their complaint seen. This has the unfortunate side effect of turning the boards into a super concentrated echo chamber of salt. Just as an example, there's a poster in this thread who currently has 9 upvotes for saying "they turned a once fun game into a pile of dog shit designed to make them money, except now there isn't enough interest to actually make them any money." Compare that to the stuff you see on any other more-popular League community (like the subreddit) and it quickly becomes pretty obvious that **this board is dominated by extreme opinions that don't actually reflect the feelings of the broader League community at all.** So, even if we read it, we're not going to give comments or posts like that too much weight. I'm curious about your opinions on this, OP: do you think we should have Rioters posting in every single thread in the boards? Or does it make sense for us to take our current "read everything, respond when it's really important" approach? Obviously I know how I feel about it, but I'd like to see your thoughts now that I've explained our perspective.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot Cactopus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4fAcHIyE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-12-05T19:34:18.367+0000) > > > Just as an example, there's a poster in this thread who currently has 9 upvotes for saying "they turned a once fun game into a pile of dog shit designed to make them money, except now there isn't enough interest to actually make them any money." Compare that to the stuff you see on any other more-popular League community (like the subreddit) and it quickly becomes pretty obvious that **this board is dominated by extreme opinions that don't actually reflect the feelings of the broader League community at all.** So, even if we read it, we're not going to give comments or posts like that too much weight. > Hey Riot Cactopus, thanks for the reply. While I agree that the boards can sometimes become dominated by extreme opinions sometimes, and that it may reflect a lot of salt at Riot, other times the boards say what a lot of others agree with as well, or say things that are supported by evidence. And yet for whatever reason, a lot of these good, reasonable requests end up ignored. To list an example: Twitch (other adcs to some extent) and ardent censer - Twitch was showing very high play rates and win rates (53%, considering that he is an adc which is picked every game this is EXCEPTIONALLY high) throughout season 7 across multiple regions, and saw quite a lot of competitive play as well. Ardent censer...do I even need to say anything about that? There were literally THOUSANDS of posts regarding these, along with thousands on how the 'better botlane wins', at least on the boards (not sure about reddit/other regions). Sure a lot of them were filled with salt, but others actually had pretty good arguments and win rates to support them. Castors at worlds were also questioning whether ardent censer was too broken as well. However, it only got significantly nerfed at the very end of the season, where it pretty much threw balance out the window for half a year. As for twitch, Riot is STILL refusing to nerf him despite Meddler's QGTs saying he's in sight for nerfs. This is also not mentioning how almost NONE of the twitch/AC/ADC threads got a response. To be frank, I think Riot is doing a poor job at replying/acknowledging boards feedback. If an opinion is loaded with salt and doesn't actually include evidence, then maybe the 'loud minority' argument may be valid. But if an argument includes constructive feedback and statistics, I think it should really be acknowledged. To throw away an argument like this just because it's from a minority is just wrong. Right now Riot isn't doing this very well.
Rioter Comments
Chermorg (NA)
: If you look at the non-boards community, you’ll find that there’s a much different approach to the new lore. Many people **do** like the new lore and the new facets to Varus. The boards echo chamber of maybe a couple thousand players **at most** is not representative of the larger community.
> [{quoted}](name=Chermorg,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=odEYv9Wd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-01T14:59:58.293+0000) > > If you look at the non-boards community, you’ll find that there’s a much different approach to the new lore. Many people **do** like the new lore and the new facets to Varus. The boards echo chamber of maybe a couple thousand players **at most** is not representative of the larger community. I think I mentioned that reddit and varus mains subreddit had extreme views on both sides. Some hated it like the boards, others liked it, a few criticized those who disliked the new one. And the general consensus of both groups was that they were sad to see the true varus go, whether they like the Darkin trio or not - which is the reason why a lot of the boards members dislike the change. The boards are much verbally stronger, but the gist of the argument is very similar.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: *I wrote most of this last night and just finished it off over lunch...hoping it all makes sense/flows. I'm typing this as a reply to this thread in general, not necessarily to the OP. I'll echo what Calad said in that we pay attention to the boards/reddit/twitter/youtube etc etc more than players realize. Walking around the office, it's super common to see people pouring over threads, reading player feedback and reactions to the latest patch, feature, CG, skin etc. We ourselves are players, but by keeping in touch with the community we can understand and keep a better pulse for how something will be received, or what's paining the players at the moment. This requires walking a very fine however. Pivoting to every demand/request from Reddit/boards can mean we hyper focus on a portion of players that doesn't represent even close to the majority of our players base - players in western countries can have completely different opinions than players in eastern countries on specific topics. It also means that we're devoting time solving temporary problems when we should be working on longer term solutions or bigger bets that can help push League forward. This is super contentious as the OP points out - working on things for the future means we're not solving player pain now - and we may need to find a better balance here looking back on the latter half of this season. Let me illustrate some of that risk with an example. I personally was pretty involved in the "Enemy Vision Here" ping, I'd seen a thread crop up to the top of Reddit again, and it was one that I'd wanted for YEARS and just made sense, so I pulled in people from a few teams around me to get it put together and shipped. That comes at a cost though. The engineer and vfx artist were in the last few weeks of development on Urgot, the audio designer was finishing up some work on skins, our QA was testing stuff that fell out of the usual day to day, and I wasn't doing the work I'd usually be doing. Was it worth it? I think so, but could Urgot have been that much better if the engineer and vfx artist were only focusing on him? Potentially. Or maybe that was time the engineer could have spent prototyping an ability for Eve (the other champ he was working on). I'm not illustrating this to illicit some form of pity, because at the end of the day working on League is a job, it's a job we love, but it's a job and we're expected to do things while we're at our desks. What I'm trying to illustrate is that jumping on every request or bit of feedback from players can cause us to deviate or lose sight of the bigger thing we're working towards, all the little things can add up to a lot of timelines slipping. We also don't always agree, hell, even the community doesn't always agree with eachother. Look at jungle plants from last pre-season, or elemental dragons, or even Rift Herald from this midseason. When they first were teased, some players were up in arms about them, while others loved the idea. We listen to feedback, and we frequently iterate based on it, but it would worry me if we suddenly stopped taking risks and pushing big new changes simply because a vocal minority voiced opinions against them. I'm not saying that they're wrong, but that we have to be careful with how often we adjust course, and how often we stick to our called shots and push forward lest we only end up shipping changes that are always vanilla (this goes for new champs, VGUs, reworks, systems changes, balance tuning, skins, etc etc). In regards to why you may not see as much Rioter participation you (or we) would like, it's likely because engaging can be very sharp double edged sword. Speaking as a Rioter means any sentence you write is likely to be taken as an official statement from the company in regards to our stance on the game and our plans with it. It's also likely to be dissected and held under the microscope by everyone - but especially when your statement jives with another players opinion. To use a very current example. I'd been talking with some players about ancient coin gold generation on this [thread](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EMqpe7dX-ste-still-sucks-riot-you-know-what-you-have-to-do?comment=000a00080000), when one player asked what my opinion of sightstone was, I gave a reply, and the next thing I know there was [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/78hxxu/riot_maplenectar_id_really_prefer_if_supports/) on the front page of reddit where my comment and credibility was being shredded. In the thread I was in it seemed like a pretty innocent question, and I didn't think twice about posting my reply, but had I known it was going to get the level of scrutiny it did (which I should have seen coming), I probably would have either just avoided replying to save myself the struggle, or taken much much longer to write a perfect reply that had the lowest chance of being misconstrued as a direction I personally was championing for League. Combine that with the fact that the number of Rioters who can **actually** engage in the topics you guys are super passionate about (we are too), and you're down to ~20-30 people that have the context, the experience, and the knowledge to actually give a detailed reply. It can be easier to just read a thread on the boards, and then talk about it with co-workers if we think there's something there than to engage in what will likely turn into a multi threaded conversation with a bunch of people who all have varying opinions on a subject. I feel bad when I drop a one liner on a post and then never go back to the comments on it, but I'm also trying to juggle my day to day responsibilities at work, and then my role as a father and husband and I have to prioritize my time. It feels crappy, but I prefer to touch base when I can even if it's the bare minimum than just stay silent just because I'm not always able to have an in depth conversation. None of this is to say that we ourselves make the right decisions each and every time, and it would be blatantly false to do so. We fuck up, but when we do we try to correct as quickly as possible. We constantly seek to improve the quality of our work with each and every patch, and we're also trying to find ways to be more transparent with our decisions to more of our player base than just those on Reddit and the boards. Even if we managed to convince people here on a direction we're taking, we still have a long ways to go to inform players in every other region of those same decisions - and that's a problem we're actively trying to solve. I hope this doesn't come across as hand wavey and dismissive of the sentiment. If you feel like we don't listen to feedback there's certainly something that's leading to that feeling and we need to figure that out, but the solution can't be "change things to match what the community thinks is correct", since that can be the right move just as often as it can be incorrect.
Hey Maple Nectar, Thanks again for your response! (I edited the thread in case this reply gets buried) I truly appreciate the time and effort you spend to reply to not just this post, but to others (you definitely seem to be one of the more vocal rioters out there and that's really appreciated). It must be extra hard to post since one wrong word and the next thing you know your own casual words may be used against you and Riot. If you have time to reply, I just want to ask something (may sound rude and I'm sorry if it is, but I mean no condescension or maliciousness at all): Even if context and knowledge is needed to change the game in a healthy way, wasn't the twitch/ardent censor/adc issue known too well by most Riot employees? Wouldn't it have been better to set a day or two aside to discuss this, considering that most regions considered it to be a serious problem? After you and Riot Calad's replies I understand how difficult it is for Riot to respond to comments, but this is a question that wasn't really answered, I feel like. Because while I do agree that long term projects may be slightly compromised by short term changes, short term problems unsolved can become a gigantic long term issue that brings a lot of hate. Nonetheless, I just want to emphasize how much I appreciate your time and effort, and I would understand if this question doesn't get a response. Thanks again!
: 1) That's great, but not a lot of wiggle room in lane, where it matters the most for assassins to snowball (or be smart and roam, but that's where your suggested counterplay comes in 2) If Riot made their stance, and provided a reason why his winrate is high, and why they think that reason is enough to not nerf him, than that's that. They know his winrate, but believe it to be higher than most, not because of his power, but because of his Stealth's strength in SoloQ especially. That's not saying "We think he's fine, as we ignore the winrate". That's saying "We think he's fine, and his winrate being higher is just due to X" 3) Bruh do you even play Melee's against Singed when he was just reworked. It's not a fun time for anyone facing him. He's tanky, he does damage, he goes fast, and he laughs all the way. At least ADCs are still squishy, and don't actively punish you for trying to kill them (As in walking after Singed) 4) Rengar needs work, that is for sure. Leblanc has some early ideas for some work from what I've heard. 5) It's hard to judge what truly is "a lot of players", because the boards and reddits, are still an extreme minority. They get better results and feedback through surveys distributed through the playerbase. I should know, I've taken like nine of them.
Looks like we got ourselves an ad-hominem free discussion. Never thought I'd say it in the boards lel. I guess yeah, for the Twitch issue Riot did justify it in their own way. Even if the players dislike it that's that. I do hope they tweak him if he continues to be way too strong tho. I was talking about ranged champs vs singed or teamfighting, my bad on not cosidering melee vs singed. Don't play him too much and when I did I just fed my ass off because he's too hard. The boards and reddit are a small minority, but I think some people on douyu or inven (Chinese and Korean counterparts) agree on some of the issues mentioned above. Anyways, thanks for the response!
: ADCs should pay for their transgressions.
You forget "NOT TAKING THE LANTERN" jar!!! {{champion:412}} {{item:3070}} But then again, a jar of that size would crash this website so...
: Actually reading Riot's feedback to *us* actually sheds a lot of light on these issues. If you read the dev blogs about the new runes, you see that they've been working on them for nearly a year (or more, perhaps). They have to plan some of these big projects months in advance; it would actually be stupid to set them aside half-way through because the people on Boards were upset about other things. Which brings me to my next point; listening to feedback is more than reading the Boards. Even if there was an actual majority of players here that agreed with you, we aren't representative of the playerbase. Riot has to do more than just do what Boards says, just as Riot Calad pointed out. Acting like "it's easy, just do what a random internet comment said" is pretty short-sighted. Riot built a very fun, successful game without our input. I'm not saying that means they should always ignore us, but it's not as simple as just doing what Boards says.
Hey man, I agree with the majority of what you say. Thanks for your input. However, I don't necessarily think setting long term projects aside to address other short term issues is a bad thing - if there is a serious problem that's severely hindering the game, they should get to it. Ardent Censer may be a good instance of this. I really don't think long term projects should take priority over things that may potentially break the game. Also, while Riot made this successful game, a lot of it has been due to them listening to comments more than the grand majority of other games. It would be nice to continue doing that, because I think that was lacking quite a bit in S7.
iLBGAMing (EUW)
: They never did my friend.
: Yes, constantly. Rioters check the boards several times a day, have reddit up on a second monitor, watch streams while they eat, survey players both in-client and in-person, and track popular topics from many different countries. In some cases, a Rioter might agree with your sentiment and be actively working to improve something, but not be ready to talk about it yet - in others, they might agree but feel there is another important project that they have to prioritize. In still others, they might listen, and decide they actually disagree with your perspective. Disagreement happens a lot - even people who agree that a problem exists might have very different ideas of how it should be solved, and taking all that into account, not just from a small group on boards or reddit, but on the huge scale of players all over the world, takes time. We hire designers not to look at what players say and then immediately do it, but to take different perspectives into account, dive into the data, and then use their best judgment to determine a course of action. In regards to your examples, I think a good first step would be to figure out what the gameplay team currently thinks about the questions you have. For example: Does the gameplay team think turrets are strong enough at the moment? I’m not a designer - so I don’t know the answer to this question. It could be a good thing to ask on one of Meddler’s “Quick Gameplay Thoughts.” He usually hangs around for awhile after he posts, and I’d be interested to see how he feels about it.
Hey Riot Calad, Before anything else I want to thank you for taking time out of the day to reply to this thread. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I understand that Riot is extremely busy, and that disagreements happen a lot - they shouldn't be expected to listen every single comment and then implement changes immediately. I also understand that it's a lot more difficult to implement change that just adding the coding into the game - it would be stupid of me to say 'nerf yas pls too op' and expect you guys to lower his q damage by half, as much as I want it to. That being said, I really don't think Riot is addressing a lot of gameplay concerns. The grand majority of my examples have been the issue for half the season or much longer. I have checked the QGTs somewhat frequently, but it really doesn't seem to answer the concerns I have (others have asked a lot of these Qs many times). Plus the concerns are not just my own, it's from a large part of the lol community from several different countries. I believe that the employees at Riot check the boards/reddit/inven frequently, but I don't know if the comments are taken SERIOUSLY. Sure there may be A LOT of disagreements and potential issues involved, but to see barely any change regarding these gameplay issues is disheartening in a player's perspective. Sorry if I sound a bit pessimistic but that's just my question towards Riot I understand that it must be really hard work, as no change in the world will leave every single player satisfied. Good luck on making the game better in the future. Thanks again, Riot Calad! Have a good day!
: 1) Riot limited burst on Assassins because they had Burst and things like less choreographed mobility, invulnerability, and actual kill times that took 1 second without being ahead or fed. It is an extreme lie to say that ADCs have the same insta-kill burst, that people like Talon, Leblanc, or Rengar had. While I do agree that ADC damage is kinda high, it will never be to the extent Assassins were unless Fed, ~~or Draven~~. 2) Riot has also given their statement on why Twitch has that winrate, it being due to his stealth's power in Solo Que. Ya can disagree or agree with that all ya want, but it's not like they're ignorant to the situation. They know, they just have a different stance. 3) While you can argue all about the strengths of ADCs, which I do agree they need toning down, you can not use Singed as an example. He is the epitome of toxic gameplay, that is even worse when strong. I don't even know what you mean by Urgot, since all that comes to mind is the power shifts away from CDR with his passive, and then that random Q nerf. 4) People are always going to be dissatisfied, the problem comes from why they are unsatisfied. People were upset about Sion's rework, because they lost the things they liked, but were unhealthy. That doesn't mean that people can't be upset for reasonable changes, but generally labeling all unsatisfied under the same label isn't good. I understand the problems that Rengar mains have had with their champion. It's unfortunate, and is a fate I only dream of bestowing on Heimerdinger. Leblanc mains, I'm less sympathetic, but they are both victims of their kill patterns becoming too one-sided for either party involved. Either too much counterplay, or too little. Both need work, but a revert isn't the answer. 5) Just in general, but when does something being requested mean that it's fated to happen? I mean, sure, turrets are weak, and you can argue all day about it, but "Instead of giving" makes it sound like that is the only right answer, and disregards alternate points of views. Only thing left to say is that listening to feedback, and then doing exactly what the feedback says, are two different things. Just because they read what you type, does not mean they are required to do what you say. What happens if two people say opposite things? What if what you say goes against design rules? We are not the end all-be all of feedback, there are many layers to shift through to get the good stuff.
Thanks for your input. This is what I think about them. 1) Yeah assassin burst was quick, but there was counterplay already in terms of warding, winning the macro play and grouping. They're supposed to be super strong against adcs anyway. My main point though was that adcs' lifesteal, crits, and support shields remained instant despite the delay in burst (even buffed) - they should have gotten delayed or weakened as well to compensate for assassins, or its an outright nerf (hence the adc meta in S7) and breaks the burst/tankiness/sustained damage triangle. 2) If Riot made their stance and used it as an excuse to not nerf something that was statistically proven that strong (don't forget, adcs' winrates are lower due to them being picked every game) it just shows they're not listening to feedback when it came to that matter. 3) In all honesty I think Singed is a LOT healthier than adcs getting healed from 1 hp to 3500+ with shields with lifesteal and support items while destroying squishies and tanks alike. At least Singed has to get in range (a form of counterplay by itself) 4) Agreed, other than that I actually think a _partial_ Rengar revert would do justice - this iteration has WAY too much counterplay. 5) The problem with the turret problem is that it makes games far too snowbally. As a strategy game this is not optimal. They don't have to make turrets invulnerable as the nexus obelisk, but if they keep making them easier and easier to kill, then I have to disagree. Sure Riot doesn't have to listen to us, but it's really making the game less enjoyable for a lot of players.
Akaviri (NA)
: I would say that the boards don't represent the majority of players. If they really want accurate opinions they should do more surveying.
Fair point. A large majority of the playerbase probably doesn't use Reddit/boards/surveys. Still, shouldn't Riot take some consideration of the louder minority?
  Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Can we get 1 free dodge in ranked every once in a while?
Champ select terrorists are a big problem (in THIS case the teammate banned eve first but that's a convo for another day). That being said, I can't really agree with this idea because 1. Off meta players will never be able to start a game 2. Queue times in general will be so much longer if there is no penalty 3. Kind of controversial, but if people have free dodges they will be inclined to start more fights/troll more, knowing they can avoid all consequences 4. Like I am alyra mentioned here, the penalty for dodging isn't that high. I think this idea has very good intentions, but brings a lot of unwanted, negative side effects.
: You realize this is a QQ thread and they're looking for a reaction to make themselves feel validated (most likely because they recently got stomped by a Twitch and remembered some QQ threads on the board about him and figured "well, it's not that I fed or anything, he's just OP), not a solution, right? But yeah, you've done a really good job getting essence of countering Twitch in a nutshell there. {{champion:99}} Fuck this bitch. And they would do well to learn from your post.
Look at the statistics before you disregard this as a QQ thread. His win rate is higher than 53.5% in Plat and Diamond in the Korean server, along with a high play rate. Considering he is an adc (which is picked in almost every single game by both sides), a win rate this high is MUCH more telling than another class champion with a winrate like that. For almost half the entire season. His win rate and play rate are like this in almost all major regions. He is a meta pick in pro play currently, frequently picked or banned. You can see the games for yourself. Maybe the posters did get stomped by a Twitch, MAYBE. But he's been really strong for the entire season and both the professional scene and solo queue statistics back that up. To disregard this post as a QQ thread like you are doing is just outright wrong.
Langhof (NA)
: I don’t agree or disagree, I just wanted to say this: Faker has always had the best team in League assembled around him. Faker is an outstanding player, but it’s hard to compare him to Bjergsen in a one-on-one case when the skill level of the teams as a whole just aren’t even close. League is a team game, and I’d wager that not even Faker could solo carry a team like TSM to the finals, world champion or not.
You're right. The level of NA players and infrastructure is nowhere near those of KR. It may be hard to compare the two with the sheer difference in the two teams. And I'd also wager that not even Faker could solo carry TSM to the world finals. That being said, I want to point these things out: 1. Faker had one of the greatest possible teams around him, but among it he was always the best member, always carrying his team one way or another in ways his team needed him (ex. pure damage, amazing assassinations, 5 man shockwaves etc.). He was always the biggest part of his team's success, or at least one of the parts. 2. SKT was never directly involved with TSM's failure in worlds while they had Bjergsen. And he and his team failed to achieve internationally, where a lot of their direct competition had EU/LMS teams with similar levels of infrastructure and players. Sure his team may have held him back a lot, but it's also unfair to say that Bjergsen is 100% fault free, since they choked multiple times. So is Bjergsen a great player, one of the best in NA? Yes. But should he be hyped as much as Faker and inflated this much? Not in my opinion.
: You can't lambaste one player on a team for it's losses, even the captain, for not being able to play Doublelift's champion for him. Can you count how many times doublelift died with flash up?
I think I very clearly acknowledged that his team may very possibly hold him back, and that he's one of the best players in NA. This post is clearly not meant to lambaste him. You misunderstood the point of this post. I'm saying that while Bjergsen is a very good player, he doesn't deserve the incredibly inflated rating and hype that the lol esports staff gives him, putting him in equal grounds with Faker and calling him one of the absolute best players in the world. If anything its lambasting the lol esports staff, not him.
Rioter Comments
: Maxlore: “Chicken Nuggets taste more beautiful when they come from someone else.”
Damn...that quote by itself is so beautiful. No wonder they got out of groups as a rookie team.
: Even if Riot had come out and given everyone a 100% full refund on all IP they've spent on Runes, people would still complain that they weren't getting 'extra compensation' or something like that. Be grateful that you get any kind of refund at all. Let me use this analogy: You go to the store and buy some cutlery, like forks, knives, etc. You need lots of different kinds. Steak knives, butter knives, regular spoons, soup spoons, forks, etc. At first you're single and living alone so you only need 1, maybe 2 of each. But if you get married, have kids, start having friends and family over for gatherings, etc, you need a lot more utensils so everyone can eat. Now, suppose that a universal multi-utensil is invented that can transform into any type of eating tool, and it's provided to everyone for free. You don't need all this cutlery anymore, so you go back to the store where you bought them and attempt to return them. Good luck with that, a store isn't gonna refund your used spoons, especially since they're now obsolete. So, what about a pawn shop? You may get some money for them but not much, since they're used and obsolete because of the new invention. This is basically Runes. We bought them over the years to fulfill our needs as our champion pools grew, but now that the system is going away we don't need them anymore. We got our use out of them, and just like silverware there's no way we get full return on investment for them. Riot is at least giving us something, even if it's only 10% it's still better than not getting anything back. You bought runes with no intention of ever getting a refund for them. You accepted that you had to buy them and you were willing to do so. But now, as soon as a refund is announced, everyone goes crazy and expects massive compensation as if it was promised from the beginning, which it never was. You got your use out of them, Riot has no obligation to refund you, so be happy that you're getting some compensation at all, and more importantly, an even better system that is now **completely free.**
I really don't think this is a very accurate analogy. Let me explain why. 1. A universal multi-utensil is much better than normal, old cutlery by a mile. However, while the new runes reforged are new, they're not actually better than the current runes/masteries. It's not definitively better off than the multi-utensil instance. It's more of a forced replacement rather than a surpassing innovation. 2. We (the diners/players) can still choose to use this old cutlery if we so choose. However, in this runes case we CANNOT use the old runes anymore because of the new ones. The ones people saved up hardcore for. So we're FORCED to refund them, not willingly like your analogy. 3. Considering the 1st point i mentioned, the inability to use old runes is much worse than not being able to use old cutlery. OF COURSE people are going to (rightfully) demand a refund if all this hard spent IP is going to be forcibly taken from them, ESPECIALLY if new players can buy them for free. If I was a player since season 1, then I'd be pretty darn angered about it. Plus, please don't treat the people here like spoiled brats. OF COURSE they'll be happy if they get a full refund.
: I see posts like this and I wonder "what kind of matches are they hoping for?" It's like these boards want Garen bot with Malph support to be meta. I think I like what Riot is doing better and I wish they'd cater to these boards less.
> It's like these boards want Garen bot with Malph support to be meta PLEASE do not insult malphite support. Plus I'd rather have Garen bot and Malphite support to be meta than an adc deciding the game 95% of the time.
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