: > [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T14:37:07.811+0000) > > Yorick, Wukong, Nasus, Kayle, Swain, not to mention the dozens of champions outside of top lane. Of course I'm saying that Garen should perform better in Diamond. By how much, idk it doesn't matter. Like I've already said multiples times. Garen has to be balanced around low elo. As of right now, his performance is underwhelming in the lowest of elo compared to the other champions win rates. And you can easily look that up for yourself. Bringing Garen back up to a 54 win rate, would make him a strong champion where he's supposed to be strong, and would help him in high elo just enough to make him not as frustrating to play and would appease people like me that play him outside of Gold and below. Champions are supposed to be BALANCED where they're strong, not overpowered. What you're asking is for him to be completely overpowered below plat just so he can be a little better in Diamond, when he's already performing fine in diamond. And that's not a good thing to suggest.
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-16T00:11:40.139+0000) > > Champions are supposed to be BALANCED where they're strong, not overpowered. What you're asking is for him to be completely overpowered below plat just so he can be a little better in Diamond, when he's already performing fine in diamond. And that's not a good thing to suggest. How is Garen being at 54% overpowered, when all the other high win rate champs from iron all the way up to challenger hovers there and higher?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 15
Hi Meddler, any chance we can see a slight Garen buff? He was buffed back in 8.9 because he was underwhelming when compared to other juggernauts namely Darius. Then that was partially nerfed, and Darius has seen a large buff since. Also Nasus got a major buff, itemization has gotten better for his lane opponents, like Spear of Shojin doesn't work well on him. Steraks got changed and made it better for other juggernauts besides Garen with his total ad scaling, conquerer still sucks on him. He doesn't seem to be performing as well as he has in the past. I don't think he needs a ton, but I definitely think he needs a little. I'd be curious to know your thoughts. I also have a thread on it in gameplay. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/z0TE6eQ8-riot-balance-team-i-implore-you-please-read-this-and-consider
: > [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T05:02:17.166+0000) > > Your explanation isn't at fault, it's your premise. Not once have I mentioned any sort of specific percentage that Garen needs to be buffed to, in high or low elo, and I already specifically said he needs to be balanced around low elo. But since you mention it yet again, no a 51% win rate in Iron, is not acceptable for one of the easiest kits in the game. The highest win rate champions in low elo are around 54-55%. If it's acceptable for them, it should definitely be acceptable for Garen. It's absurd that Garen is not allowed to be that strong in low elo when others are when he should be. And the thing is, Garen was that strong or close to it for at a time in season 8, and the reasoning was he was underwhelming compared to Darius. Then that buff got slightly reverted, It was felt but Garen was still ok. Then Darius got a large buff in the worlds patch, and since then Garen was hit with a large indirect nerf (celerity) which i understand. Celerity was being abused by some champs like Hecarim, Quinn, ect. I'd also point out that the steraks change was another indirect nerf to Garen. Another one that I understand and agree with, changing steraks made it useful for more champs and nerfed the triforce interaction. But it still indirectly nerfed Garen against the majority of his lane opponents because Garen was one of the few bruisers who's abilities scale from total ad rather than bonus. That item was just simply better on Garen than Darius, Renekton, ect. As it sits, Garen is more underwhelming right now compared to the other bruisers, especially Darius, than he was before the patch where they buffed him, specifically because he was underwhelming when compared to Darius! If you honestly think that buffing Garen equal the other high win rate champs in low elo, is somehow going to create the 2015 worlds conditions, than there's literally no reasoning with you, that's not a logical thought process. That's just actually silly. Mordes win rate was 76%, even in high elo? If Garen was just alittle bit stronger, he wouldn't be suddenly pulling off quadra kills in LCS, he would still suck in anything diamond and above, he would just suck a little less than he already does. My opinion is they should buff him to around 54% win rate in low elo which would match him to the other low elo high win rates, and let him fall where he falls in high elo. That's neither game breaking or unreasonable. Which champions are you referring to? You keep saying "other low elo champions are doing better" but providing no names. I never said it was okay for them, either. And what ARE you saying, if you're not saying Garen should be _performing_ better in Diamond? I didn't say he'd jump to Mord's old strength from a tiny change. I said Mord is an example of how that can go wrong. And in essence, your suggestion that they add a better timing mechanic to Garen's W IS a suggestion to rework part of him. All I'm saying is that that doesn't go far enough. Reworks are usually done to make an outdated character easier to fix, not just flat out stronger. And that is why Garen needs one.
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T08:32:54.266+0000) > > Which champions are you referring to? You keep saying "other low elo champions are doing better" but providing no names. > > I never said it was okay for them, either. And what ARE you saying, if you're not saying Garen should be _performing_ better in Diamond? > > I didn't say he'd jump to Mord's old strength from a tiny change. I said Mord is an example of how that can go wrong. And in essence, your suggestion that they add a better timing mechanic to Garen's W IS a suggestion to rework part of him. All I'm saying is that that doesn't go far enough. Reworks are usually done to make an outdated character easier to fix, not just flat out stronger. And that is why Garen needs one. Yorick, Wukong, Nasus, Kayle, Swain, not to mention the dozens of champions outside of top lane. Of course I'm saying that Garen should perform better in Diamond. By how much, idk it doesn't matter. Like I've already said multiples times. Garen has to be balanced around low elo. As of right now, his performance is underwhelming in the lowest of elo compared to the other champions win rates. And you can easily look that up for yourself. Bringing Garen back up to a 54 win rate, would make him a strong champion where he's supposed to be strong, and would help him in high elo just enough to make him not as frustrating to play and would appease people like me that play him outside of Gold and below.
: > [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T02:09:43.674+0000) > > I'm not sure if you're actually trying to be taken seriously with a comment like that. You think the champion with one of the simplest kits in the game should only have a slightly above 50% win rate in the lowest of elo? Ummm, wow? It seems like you either aren't reading or I'm not explaining properly. The performance you can expect from mastering him is very low, to match the fact that the amount of _skill needed_ to master him completely is also extremely low. _No_ champion should see 55-60% win rate at any level of play. That is not just my opinion, but what we've seen from Riot's balancing decisions (Ryze's performance in pros is a good example). And for Garen, trying to bump him up 2% in Diamond with just straight up buffs would result in a 10% bump in iron to gold. So it's better to leave him _balanced_ at the level of play his kit is suited for-- 51% in Iron - Silver-- and only slightly underperforming in Diamond. If I'm not being clear enough, just look at what Mordekaiser did to worlds in 2015. THAT is what you get when you try to make a kit that isn't suited for fighting coordinated teams strong enough to do so. You just end up with stats too big to beat regardless of skill.
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-15T03:09:11.130+0000) > > It seems like you either aren't reading or I'm not explaining properly. > > The performance you can expect from mastering him is very low, to match the fact that the amount of _skill needed_ to master him completely is also extremely low. > > _No_ champion should see 55-60% win rate at any level of play. That is not just my opinion, but what we've seen from Riot's balancing decisions (Ryze's performance in pros is a good example). > > And for Garen, trying to bump him up 2% in Diamond with just straight up buffs would result in a 10% bump in iron to gold. So it's better to leave him _balanced_ at the level of play his kit is suited for-- 51% in Iron - Silver-- and only slightly underperforming in Diamond. > > If I'm not being clear enough, just look at what Mordekaiser did to worlds in 2015. THAT is what you get when you try to make a kit that isn't suited for fighting coordinated teams strong enough to do so. You just end up with stats too big to beat regardless of skill. Your explanation isn't at fault, it's your premise. Not once have I mentioned any sort of specific percentage that Garen needs to be buffed to, in high or low elo, and I already specifically said he needs to be balanced around low elo. But since you mention it yet again, no a 51% win rate in Iron, is not acceptable for one of the easiest kits in the game. The highest win rate champions in low elo are around 54-55%. If it's acceptable for them, it should definitely be acceptable for Garen. It's absurd that Garen is not allowed to be that strong in low elo when others are when he should be. And the thing is, Garen was that strong or close to it for at a time in season 8, and the reasoning was he was underwhelming compared to Darius. Then that buff got slightly reverted, It was felt but Garen was still ok. Then Darius got a large buff in the worlds patch, and since then Garen was hit with a large indirect nerf (celerity) which i understand. Celerity was being abused by some champs like Hecarim, Quinn, ect. I'd also point out that the steraks change was another indirect nerf to Garen. Another one that I understand and agree with, changing steraks made it useful for more champs and nerfed the triforce interaction. But it still indirectly nerfed Garen against the majority of his lane opponents because Garen was one of the few bruisers who's abilities scale from total ad rather than bonus. That item was just simply better on Garen than Darius, Renekton, ect. As it sits, Garen is more underwhelming right now compared to the other bruisers, especially Darius, than he was before the patch where they buffed him, specifically because he was underwhelming when compared to Darius! If you honestly think that buffing Garen equal the other high win rate champs in low elo, is somehow going to create the 2015 worlds conditions, than there's literally no reasoning with you, that's not a logical thought process. That's just actually silly. Mordes win rate was 76%, even in high elo? If Garen was just alittle bit stronger, he wouldn't be suddenly pulling off quadra kills in LCS, he would still suck in anything diamond and above, he would just suck a little less than he already does. My opinion is they should buff him to around 54% win rate in low elo which would match him to the other low elo high win rates, and let him fall where he falls in high elo. That's neither game breaking or unreasonable.
: > [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-03-14T22:22:25.885+0000) > > He's not just performing poorly at high ranks though. Garen's low elo win rate is currently 2-3% lower than other low skill floor stat check top laners like Nasus for example, and 40th overall. Iron players don't win with macro or champion skill expression, they win by stat checks. Since Garen relies on stats alone in low elo, the fact that he's not winning more indicates a problem. I recognize that Garen's kit has to be balanced around low elo. And don't misunderstand, I'm not complaining about him being a stat check, the fact that he's currently losing stat checks he shouldn't that is my complaint. If a champion fighting Garen fails their skill check 'missing an ability or using it at the wrong time putting it on cd' Garen should be able to favorably trade with them. And there are plenty of instances were that's not the case. I'm not saying Garen needs a lot to be where he needs to be, but he does need something. It's not a _problem_ when a low-skill champion is only slightly above 50% at the lowest ranks and still at a very reasonable 48% at high ranks. That just means the champion is properly balanced for the elo at which they are played. Garen is _at_ where he needs to be, because giving him anything at all for high elo, with his too-simple kit, makes him way too strong at the level where his kit is good.
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-15T01:14:56.790+0000) > > It's not a _problem_ when a low-skill champion is only slightly above 50% at the lowest ranks and still at a very reasonable 48% at high ranks. That just means the champion is properly balanced for the elo at which they are played. Garen is _at_ where he needs to be, because giving him anything at all for high elo, with his too-simple kit, makes him way too strong at the level where his kit is good. I'm not sure if you're actually trying to be taken seriously with a comment like that. You think the champion with one of the simplest kits in the game should only have a slightly above 50% win rate in the lowest of elo? Ummm, wow?
Wùkong (EUW)
: Wukong hasn't seen a decent change for years and has been nerfed to the ground at this point and you are crying over a champ that can 1 shot Wu
> [{quoted}](name=Wùkong,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-03-14T22:48:49.162+0000) > > Wukong hasn't seen a decent change for years and has been nerfed to the ground at this point and you are crying over a champ that can 1 shot Wu Yet Wukong still has one of the highest win rates and in a higher elo spread than Garen. I remember when Garen was the highest low elo statistical counter. That's not the case anymore.
: What he needs is a full rework. In fact he, Darius, Mordekaiser, and Nasus need reworks to push them _away_ from being solely stat checks into requiring at least some semblance of skill expression in a fight. Garen is currently performing as usual for a champion who's countered by team coordination in high elos where such coordination is the norm. To give him more flat stat buffs, like your suggested MS boost, would just exacerbate the problems he has in lower rank solo queue. It would do no help to him in high ranks because losing to team coordination isn't about his stats. It's about his lack of versatile mechanics in exchange for just high numbers. As we saw with Mordekaiser back in 2015, the only way to make such a kit, one that relies entirely on stat-checking, viable against a coordinated team is to make the stats so unreasonably high that you can just body any attempt at counterplay against you-- the exact same way these champions win against any non-counters in a dueling matchup. The change you've suggested to his W is kind of already there. A well-timed W gives you a small window of a lot more defense than the rest of the duration. And where you said: >For a champion whose kit is so simple, it seems like he should be slightly higher than [his win rate] currently is. That's generally _not_ how it works. Win rates dip down at the extremes, for two different reasons. A champion that has a very high skill floor will dip down in win rate if their play rate is high, because people who lack experience will drag it down. But they'll have incredibly high win rates from mains because they have a high skill ceiling. That is, once you have the necessary experience with them, you'll get a lot out of them. Conversely, a champion that has essentially no skill floor at all, like Garen, will dip down because they have a very low skill ceiling. No amount of practice with Garen will get you as high a win rate with him as a high skill floor champ like Katarina. Because there just isn't anything in his kit to _express_ that experience. Because he relies just on stat-checks instead of skill-checks, increasing your skill with him does nothing-- you still can't increase the stats, and you _can't spin better_ than a brand-new Garen. The best way to increase his performance for people who have more experience with him would have to be a complete rework, to give him abilities that can actually express experience with him. But as he is, he _should_ be performing poorly at high ranks, because that's where his stat-checking isn't enough.
> [{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z0TE6eQ8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-14T18:57:00.763+0000) > > What he needs is a full rework. In fact he, Darius, Mordekaiser, and Nasus need reworks to push them _away_ from being solely stat checks into requiring at least some semblance of skill expression in a fight. > > Garen is currently performing as usual for a champion who's countered by team coordination in high elos where such coordination is the norm. To give him more flat stat buffs, like your suggested MS boost, would just exacerbate the problems he has in lower rank solo queue. It would do no help to him in high ranks because losing to team coordination isn't about his stats. It's about his lack of versatile mechanics in exchange for just high numbers. > > As we saw with Mordekaiser back in 2015, the only way to make such a kit, one that relies entirely on stat-checking, viable against a coordinated team is to make the stats so unreasonably high that you can just body any attempt at counterplay against you-- the exact same way these champions win against any non-counters in a dueling matchup. > > The change you've suggested to his W is kind of already there. A well-timed W gives you a small window of a lot more defense than the rest of the duration. > > And where you said: > > That's generally _not_ how it works. Win rates dip down at the extremes, for two different reasons. A champion that has a very high skill floor will dip down in win rate if their play rate is high, because people who lack experience will drag it down. But they'll have incredibly high win rates from mains because they have a high skill ceiling. That is, once you have the necessary experience with them, you'll get a lot out of them. > > Conversely, a champion that has essentially no skill floor at all, like Garen, will dip down because they have a very low skill ceiling. No amount of practice with Garen will get you as high a win rate with him as a high skill floor champ like Katarina. Because there just isn't anything in his kit to _express_ that experience. Because he relies just on stat-checks instead of skill-checks, increasing your skill with him does nothing-- you still can't increase the stats, and you _can't spin better_ than a brand-new Garen. > > The best way to increase his performance for people who have more experience with him would have to be a complete rework, to give him abilities that can actually express experience with him. But as he is, he _should_ be performing poorly at high ranks, because that's where his stat-checking isn't enough. He's not just performing poorly at high ranks though. Garen's low elo win rate is currently 2-3% lower than other low skill floor stat check top laners like Nasus for example, and 40th overall. Iron players don't win with macro or champion skill expression, they win by stat checks. Since Garen relies on stats alone in low elo, the fact that he's not winning more indicates a problem. I recognize that Garen's kit has to be balanced around low elo. And don't misunderstand, I'm not complaining about him being a stat check, the fact that he's currently losing stat checks he shouldn't that is my complaint. If a champion fighting Garen fails their skill check 'missing an ability or using it at the wrong time putting it on cd' Garen should be able to favorably trade with them. And there are plenty of instances were that's not the case. I'm not saying Garen needs a lot to be where he needs to be, but he does need something.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Yeah, we still need bans for ARURF....
> [{quoted}](name=BeatzBoyFTW,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=yXWs0liT,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-01-29T02:41:14.896+0000) > > I am not planning to get rekt by someone who has the lucky reroll of that 1 certain champion I do not ever want to see or fight against. > > Why can't we ban 10 champions, AND THEN do your reroll? > > "But it's URF, why do you care?" > > If I wanted a fun game mode, I want it fun without me dying over & over thanks to someone who has the lucky pick. I disagree, getting "out op'd" by the enemy and vice versa is part of the fun. If you feel otherwise your taking URF way too seriously.
Yenn (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J6HqiF7H,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-01-29T00:35:42.286+0000) > > I think auto fill should only apply to Diamond + elo. At that level you should be experienced enough to be somewhat competent in any role. Low elo is where auto fill really screws people over, and the low elo player base is large enough for queue times to not be that bad. Somewhat competent doesn't fly at Diamond. If you main mid and only play top 1/20 games, you're going to get shit on by an actual top main who plays top 19/20 games. Also, most auto-fills at Diamond+ are top and jungle, which are the two worst roles for auto-fill. If anything, it should be removed at high elo, if not entirely for ranked.
> [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J6HqiF7H,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2019-01-29T01:09:20.768+0000) > > Somewhat competent doesn't fly at Diamond. If you main mid and only play top 1/20 games, you're going to get shit on by an actual top main who plays top 19/20 games. > > Also, most auto-fills at Diamond+ are top and jungle, which are the two worst roles for auto-fill. If anything, it should be removed at high elo, if not entirely for ranked. I disagree, a high elo non top main will usually pick something safe like Maokai or Mundo and just play the lane passively and usually come out of laning phase with no deaths and only a slight cs disadvantage. Having the knowledge and sense to do this is one of the many differences between high and low elo.
BigFBear (EUW)
: I would rather have doubled or trippled queue time than playing with autofills!
I think auto fill should only apply to Diamond + elo. At that level you should be experienced enough to be somewhat competent in any role. Low elo is where auto fill really screws people over, and the low elo player base is large enough for queue times to not be that bad.
: I might be the minority, but I actually like playing LoL and don't think it's in such a bad state...
> [{quoted}](name=Zesfrexli,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=pfqlreYN,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-11-06T05:18:38.806+0000) > > I mean, there are certainly still aspects of the game that are super dumb (like Akali's shroud), but overall I enjoy playing and I feel like my personal performance has a good amount impact on whether I win or lose games. > > I sympathize with many of the critical posts here on the boards, but I don't think the game is "broken" or "dying" or anything to those extremes. Top lane is still fucked, and will remain so until kite mages can't completely dominate melee bruisers. Darius's damage is also overtuned atm, other than that things seem ok.
Jaspers (EUW)
: Ban Rate shows something is unhealthy for the game/champ, not how powerful they are.
> [{quoted}](name=Jaspers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zaApj34x,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-11-05T13:25:38.854+0000) > > Do you agree with the statement in my title? > > I've seen a lot of threads recently about certain champs asking for nerfs/changes and in many of them people post figures stating they are balanced or even weak. Yet these champs still maintain an absurdly high ban rate. Any champ with a ban rate of 20% or more should surely be looked into as to why they are banned so much and how to fix this issue and it's not just their power. > > Let's look at some cases. > Akali - Has a win rate of 46% but ban rate of 65%. Will receive more nerfs next patch. The thing complained about is her shroud but nerfing the cooldowns and lowering her damage won't fix the shroud. > Irelia - 49% win rate, -5MS apparently balanced her out a little and made her main role Top again (much to Yorick's dismay). 55% plus ban rate. People just don't want to deal with her, her damage, her movement, her safety. Same issues Yasuo has. > Morgana - Pretty balanced champ, in both power and role. Yet 30% ban rate (up from the last 2 years of 5-10%). This is change in the meta, nerfs to Enchanter supports have left the most picked supports are CC vanguards and catchers, who better to stop them? What is unhealthy? The change in support meta meaning CC dominates. People ban Morgana because they want to pick a catcher and she stops you doing your job. > Nami - Received a nerf because her win rate was 53% while pick rate 16%. Ban rate hit 3% at one time, most the time it's less than 2%. This was a case of 'too much power' as after the support starting items cost change as she could heal herself. So Riot nerfed the heal, her win rate went down. She was never unhealthy for the game. > Jhin - High ban rate while the Rageblade bug existed, ban rate has dropped after it was fixed. High ban rate during Hail of Blades bug, ban rate dropped since. > > > Many of the champs who are banned most are (based on pick rate and win rate together) mostly balanced but in order for not only people to enjoy playing against them but for people to actually be able to play them, their gameplay or the game itself has to change. > > In the case that a champ is banned because they are too powerful, this in itself is what is unhealthy and therefore should be look into (aka Jax, Lucian, Kai'Sa). It's bit of alittle both for me, as a Garen main I ban reworked Akali because she is extremely annoying, not because I can't win. I ban Darius because his damage is currently overtuned and nearly impossible to deal with.
: Idk why so many people keep bringing up darius being op. Ofc darius is hard to lane against most of the time. Why is that? Cuz ur playing vs a very good darius. If a squishy ADC can counter darius its really saying something about him. Vs garen? Darius can easily lose that match up. All garent has to do is avoid his Q and just keep chipping his health away with garen's Q and heal up with that absurd passive. Besides i dont see garen's ult needing any stacks to actually do damage. Darius is one of the most balanced champions there is. I would be more worried about pyke who can do what he does with way more mobility, way more CC, and an AOE ult that resets on kills. Stop bringing darius up and focus on the real problem children in this game. Pyke literally has an indicator on his ult letting you know when they will die....with darius it actually takes tons of games to even know when you will get a kill from ulting. Plus half the time in a team fight your team mates will kill the guy before you do. Thats why he doesnt do so well and ends up being unable to escape and die first. In addition to getting kited to hell.
> [{quoted}](name=DEDManWonderLand,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=g4RuiVaI,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-13T16:26:11.446+0000) > > Idk why so many people keep bringing up darius being op. Ofc darius is hard to lane against most of the time. Why is that? Cuz ur playing vs a very good darius. If a squishy ADC can counter darius its really saying something about him. Vs garen? Darius can easily lose that match up. All garent has to do is avoid his Q and just keep chipping his health away with garen's Q and heal up with that absurd passive. Besides i dont see garen's ult needing any stacks to actually do damage. Darius is one of the most balanced champions there is. > > I would be more worried about pyke who can do what he does with way more mobility, way more CC, and an AOE ult that resets on kills. Stop bringing darius up and focus on the real problem children in this game. Pyke literally has an indicator on his ult letting you know when they will die....with darius it actually takes tons of games to even know when you will get a kill from ulting. Plus half the time in a team fight your team mates will kill the guy before you do. Thats why he doesnt do so well and ends up being unable to escape and die first. In addition to getting kited to hell. If you think Garen beats Darius, you obviously haven't played that matchup. As a Garen main, when someone picks my Garen, I always pick Darius, and I always win.
: If were going by real world metal strength and value it should be: Bronze- Iron- Silver- Gold- Platinum- Diamond +master grandmaster and challenger
> [{quoted}](name=Necro Warrior87,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=KO3rss5u,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-09-29T20:11:12.128+0000) > > If were going by real world metal strength and value it should be: > Bronze- Iron- Silver- Gold- Platinum- Diamond +master grandmaster and challenger Bronze is more valuable than iron.
: fair enough. is there any solution for trolls in champ select though? this is my main issue. any ideas?
> [{quoted}](name=Sufficient Girth,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=W8UEm7ZJ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-13T19:45:52.579+0000) > > fair enough. is there any solution for trolls in champ select though? this is my main issue. any ideas? If it's a ranked game, they're probably not trolling, they're probably just bad.
: > [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=W8UEm7ZJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-13T17:05:02.484+0000) > > I don't agree with kicking someone for champ selection. But I would love to be able to vote to kick someone who's being toxic in champ select. how come you dont agree? in terms of trolls*
> [{quoted}](name=Sufficient Girth,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=W8UEm7ZJ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-09-13T19:07:06.590+0000) > > how come you dont agree? in terms of trolls* Because I myself have been the target of champ selection toxicity too many times, people telling me not to play something cause it's "bad or not meta" and I end up carrying the shit out of the game. Champ selection really doesn't matter until Plat or higher really. I could take just about any champ and win a lane in Bronze and Silver.
Anin777 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AlOqsOJ1,comment-id=00040000000000000004000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-15T19:48:22.449+0000) > > Yeah cause every champion in the game has CC? HMMMMMM. Stop typing like a silver player. Oh wait... Such a poor attempt at a comeback cos you made zer0 sense. And a gold playing rank shaming? AHAHHAHAHAAHAHHA *breathes* HAHAHAHAHAHHA. Pathetic.
> [{quoted}](name=Anin777,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AlOqsOJ1,comment-id=000400000000000000040000000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-16T14:36:15.226+0000) > > Such a poor attempt at a comeback cos you made zer0 sense. And a gold playing rank shaming? AHAHHAHAHAAHAHHA *breathes* HAHAHAHAHAHHA. Pathetic. I wonder how much of it doesn't make sense because your simply a moron? And a Silver rank shaming? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *breathes* HAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA. This "Gold" player can beat you any day of the week btw. Find out.
: Kick Summoner in Champ Select Thought.
I don't agree with kicking someone for champ selection. But I would love to be able to vote to kick someone who's being toxic in champ select.
: It became a meme to "nerf Irelia", but it seriously needs to happen again now
"The rework removed more counterplay than it added" The same can be said for Akali, I used to actually enjoy that matchup in the top lane. Now it's like facing a good teemo or pantheon prior to thier Q pulling minion aggro. After laning phase i'm ready to bash my own skull in with a hammer.
: Can Akali not be allowed to just fuck around in her smokescreen for 25 minutes per game?
Absolutely agree, I hate laning against an Akali, absolute disgusting bullshit. Should have never made it through testing.
Anin777 (EUW)
: Or maybe the champ you are fighting has CC? HMMMMMMM. Stop typing like a gold player. Oh wait...
Yeah cause every champion in the game has CC? HMMMMMM. Stop typing like a silver player. Oh wait...
: Do you think Zoe needs a rework? As sad as that sounds.
: Considering the only way to do this is to land both hits of rake pre-6 which is fairly hard to do honestly, I think it's fine.
Sure as long as what you mean by "fairly" is "not really".
Anin777 (EUW)
: What can he do though? If he deals any less dmg, any other mage will outdamage him. Also, I call BS on that 100-0. Except you eat like 2-3 autos, which means you are bad, don't see that happening.
Yeah cause it's sooo hard to weave in a couple of auto's when doing talons combo. Maybe if your unable to do this, your bad?
: Fair point. The other points still hold pretty well though.
Eh, not really. What talon player is going to let his lane opponent auto him 9 times waiting for his W to come up? Also Talon's W outranges Pantheons entire kit. And regardless, even if other champions outrange him. I'm not trying to convince anyone that Talon is busted or this is a "Talon" problem, or that there is or isn't counterplay. I will say though, if he has the damage to 100-0 you, which he a lot of champs with serrated dirk, and he is willing to flash/ignite to insure your death, there's little counterplay. Also there's probably other champs other than talon, maybe even pantheon that can 100-0 a squishy with their combo and a serrated dirk. I just feel like that is way to early in the game for Talon, or any other champion to be doing that. Now whether that's because serrated dirk is too cheap, too powerful, the champs are too strong, the other champs are too squishy? I have no idea. I just know, it feels wrong. I mean how fast can a good CS'r get serrated dirk in mid lane 4 and a half minutes?
: But then let's consider this: his ranged harass is exclusively aoe and his only aoe. That means you can position yourself so either he shoves the lane and you can freeze it for your team to gank him or you can stand away from minions so he cannot wave clear when you shove and deny him cs and roams. His w also has (I believe) a 12 second cd. Meaning for the cost of 1 w you can hit upwards of 9 auto attacks on him. You can also use your ranged abilities like he can to poke him from a completely safe range where he cannot hit you with w or attempt to gap close with Q. His w also has a pullback delay meaning if you force him to use it at near max range not only will you be able to walk backwards to avoid the second half, but you dodge the pullback which is iirc around 65% of the abilities total damage and a requirement for him to try to proc his passive for an all in trade. His range exists, but I would argue a large number of assassins have much better range than him, such as zed, LeBlanc, kassadin, jayce (who I consider an assassin based on his lack of any other subclasses of items at the moment) Katarina is debatable, and definately pantheon.
Talon's W is pretty good at waveclear though so I don't think it's really all that easy to freeze unless he let's you. Especially around the time where he's been able to come back with a serrated dirk.
Rioter Comments
: His ranged harass is hardly on the same level of a ranged mid Laner let's be real here.
Sure I would agree, but that's really a moot point. The ranged harass he does have, outranges mages auto's by 100-200. So it can be used pretty effectively.
: And this is the reason that player perception is only one of many things considered when determining how to change the game. The player being killed only sees the assassin jump, press a few buttons and blow them up. Riot sees that assassin struggling against ranged harass early, dodging ranged CC in order to close the gap, and fighting through shields/Exhaust when they do get there.
So since talon "struggles" against ranged mages with cc and ranged harass, even though he has his own ranged harass, he should be able to "blow them up" after only buying a lethality component? Yeah, no.
: > [{quoted}](name=VìciousDelicious,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AlOqsOJ1,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-15T16:42:27.321+0000) > > A Talon with electrecute, who has bought serated dirk on first back can litetally, as in real life 100-0 a squishy target. Even if they have cloth armor. I have both done this, and experienced it. That should not be happening, not that early in the game. Lvl 2 cheese only works on bad people.
I would disagree. I would say that lvl 2 cheese only _consistently_ works on bad people. That's really irrelevant though. This isn't a discussion of skill. It's about damage. And I specifically said serrated dirk. It is my opinion that said Talon, should not have the damage after first back to 100-0 his lane opponent with one combo, especially if the lane opponent has bought the appropriate item to prevent such events (cloth armor). This is unhealthy for the game.
: >Your telling me you think assassins have the right to 100-0 squishys without being fed? No, but I think assassins should be able to 50-0 a squishy if they get a good opportunity and land their full combo. It doesn't help your argument to put words in my mouth :) In fact, we're very likely on the same side here, at least in terms of assassin damage; I *do* think assassins are too strong. I just think a 10-20% damage reduction is going to cripple other types of carries, too, and we don't need that. That would lead to "League of Cleavers 2.0." Having fighters and tanks in *every role* is not preferable to having assassins and marksmen in *every role*. Swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction is just as problematic.
A Talon with electrecute, who has bought serated dirk on first back can litetally, as in real life 100-0 a squishy target. Even if they have cloth armor. I have both done this, and experienced it. That should not be happening, not that early in the game.
: Ironically yasuo sucks in urf mode
It's not really ironic when you thunk about it. He doesnt use mana and his q cooldown is already 2 seconds. So he's naturally going to see less of an increase in power in urf, when compared to champs who have longer cooldowns and are mana hungry.

VìciousDelicious

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