: Candy Knight Kled (Can we make this a thing)
Moon Mom (NA)
: A 1M mastery One trick's thoughts - Upcoming Diana rework.
It's nice to see someone so passionate about Diana speaking up. Like many others here, I love Diana's story and theme, but her kit kinda falls flat and it's kept me from playing her over other champions I find more mechanically interesting. I have some thoughts on the subject, though they're probably overall meh to "how about no": > Passive - Moonsilver Blade I completely agree with taking off the tacked on attack speed. Either simply increase her base attack speed (probably not a good idea), or increase her growth per level (better scaling as the game goes on). I think this was originally added to assuage some of her weakness in her early levels, but if Lunar Rush is going to be a basic ability, it feels like unnecessary up-front power. I think that Moonsilver Blade should be the majority of Diana's damage, and so most of her abilities should be focus on enabling this. Additionally, I really feel like Diana should be interacting more with Moonlight in her abilities, and so I think Moonsilver Blade should apply it to those she hits. > Q - Lunar Strike I don't know if I really like Lunar Strike being two separate casts (though your reasoning for it is solid), but I do like the alternation of cast direction with each cast, but Ill get back to that in a second. I do think that the up-front damage of Lunar Strike should be toned down some, and tied more into the follow-up damage. Lunar Strike could only really apply Moonlight to those struck at the end of the ability, which would require more thought of the Diana player when casting the ability. > W - Pale Cascade I agree with you that the up-front damage of this spell (when combined with Lunar Rush) currently accounts for a large portion of Diana's Burst. I think the delay is sound (something between 0.5 and 1 second should be plenty), but I think that if the orbs orbited a little further from Diana, it may also assuage the issue to a degree (as they're so close to her that standing on top of someone causes them all to detonate majority of the time). I would like this ability to interact with Moonlight to some degree. I don't care much how it's achieved, but personally I was thinking that the shield increase (when the third orb is detonated) could consume Moonlight off of nearby enemies when it triggers, giving Diana an optional defensive use of Moonlight (and therefore justifying Q no longer applying it to every enemy struck). I'm not really certain on the numbers for this sort of effect, but it would really depend on how many enemies you could consistently trigger moonlight on. This sort of thing could really put the "cascade" into this ability. > E - Lunar Rush Ok, so in regards to alternating the direction of Lunar Strike's (Q) arc with each cast, this is relevant. Lunar Rush chould cause Diana to dash a set distance **through** the target (Like Fizz's Urchin Strike), but her travel would be in an arc very similar to Lunar Strike's (Q). Casting Q or E causes the other to travel in the opposite direction (Clockwise or Counterclockwise). Additionally, Lunar Rush chould apply on-hit effects to the target (including Moonsilver Blade, which could even have some special interaction when triggered through Lunar Rush), to allow it to strongly synergize with her passive, rather than providing straight magic damage (though it should still deal some, IMO). Now, make no mistake, I'm aware that this is incredibly powerful. Lunar Rush traveling in an arc alone allows you to avoid most defensive skillshot CC due to it's unique travel path (all other dashes in the game come straight at you, so this one breaking the mold is going to require everyone to re-learn how to fight her) -and- it's two possible routes. Triggering on-hit effects is also nothing to scoff at. Guinsoo's Rageblade, Lich Bane, and Nashor's Tooth all just became that much better in this situation. **And so, to offset those utterly absurd benefits: Lunar Rush can now only be cast on enemies marked by Moonlight.** Limiting her mobility to only those marked by Moonlight makes landing those precise Q's and Passive procs all the more important. Your double dash is still available, as you can trigger your passive on the target if you've prepared properly. That said, Diana would need quite the mana pool to do this on a consistent basis, so that would need to be considered. --- All that said though, this loads a lot of power into Lunar Rush (not that it wasn't there already I suppose), and turns her into more of a Skirmisher (and thus frustrating to play against, if the rest of that class is anything to go by) than a Fighter really, and honestly, the Guinsoo's interaction would be busted with this version, so I don't really think it's a good idea without changes elsewhere. Perhaps if Moonsilver Blade was a 4 hit passive? *Thinks* (This last bit is mostly sarcastic, in case anyone misses that, but it's an option, espically as it lowers the "win moreness" of this ability without really hurting much else [besides maybe her jungle clear]) > R - Moonfall I'm not sure if I'm on board with your version, but I can't really think of anything better, so eh. I like the current Moonfall quite a bit, even though it's use is limited. I'd be happy if it vacuumed and slowed everyone in like it does right now, while applying Moonlight and (maybe) dealing some damage? Maybe you could make it a channel that increases the ability's size based on the channel duration? In my head it really lacks weight without some kind of delay. ---- So yea, Like I said, probably meh to "nope" ideas, but that's what's on my mind. Once again, I applaud your dedication to the character, and your willingness to let go of the more unhealthy play-styles she has, even if they're fun for you, for the sake of other players. It's a beautiful thing.
: > [{quoted}](name=Erockandroll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G0Wo0w9V,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-06-12T21:10:50.353+0000) > > Really the problem comes down to the fact that they rely on stats. > > Any Ranged champ has some skill expression in terms of their positioning. But for melee champs, it's pretty much either in range, or out of range. Divers make up for this some what with their mobility. (depending on the ability, it could have the merits of a skill shot) But Juggernauts rely more on MS boosts, which gives a lot less skill expression in the kiting game. > > They're Melee, they're Immobile, so if you compensate for it with better dueling power, you put them under a knifes edge between "OMG so OP no Counterplay" and "Completely useless." The only two exceptions I see to that level of skill expression comes mainly from Mundo and Olaf, mainly that their chase potential could be reliant on their ability to land a skill shot. (their Qs) Though Mundo isn't a good option, since he's ridiculously hard countered by GW. there are other juggs with decent skill expression in their kits. {{champion:122}} mainly positioning when it comes to his q, and his pull {{champion:83}} his w, his e, use of power windows with his ghouls. {{champion:420}} animation cancelling and positioning around her tentacles. next to hitting a good pull of course. on the other hand there are plain stat check adc like {{champion:67}} {{champion:96}} {{champion:29}} a larger auto attack range doesnt guarantee a high skill cap. csing and positioning in fights can be easier whith more freedom of position while being effective.
Illaoi can't anim cancel her E anymore, Riot yanked that (and for good reason imo, still sucks tho). So unless I'm missing another anim cancel she has, I don't think she can do that anymore
Varnoc (NA)
: If, assuming Quinn is turned into a Melee character, I see no reason why Quinn wouldn't be able to use her crossbow for some of her abilities. ~~If the kit is at all similar, Harrier marks will still be a thing, right? It wouldn't make sense for Quinn to carelessly launch bolts at a target with heavy plate or a shield, she'd wait until her opponent is vulnerable, but be ready for any up-close issues until that time arrives. ~~ EDIT: Feels wierd. A melee assassin with periodic ranged attacks? It's different for things like Ekko's blink/dash where it's an AA modifier, but for just straight damage it doesn't seem right. Annnnnnd off to brainstorm melee Q&V... Quick Edit: If Quinn would go full assassin as melee, she probably wouldn't need the bonus attack speed from proccing Harrier marks, would she? The bonus MS would be nice still, but the attack speed lends more to sustained damage, which wouldn't be her function.
The kit I'm writing out seems to be developing more towards a Skirmisher archetype than an Assassin archetype. Could she be a skirmisher? It seems like she would favor getting the fight over with more quickly like an Assassin would, so I'm pretty sure I should scrap it, but it's turning out to be kinda neat, so I'm hesitant. On the other hand in her lore: > The killer escaped battalions of knights dispatched to capture him, but Quinn and Valor tracked and killed the assassin after a night of lethal traps, counterattacks and ambushes. She returned with the assassin’s blade, earning the nickname, Demacia’s Wings. So she seems more like a scrappy, long-term fighter that lands the finishing blow when the opportunity presents itself, than a straight up-assassin (I think the assassin is more of a play-style development than a lore one)
: Woodsy ranged characters with pets are a common trope in modern fantasy -- we see them all the time in movies, video games, TV shows, etc. I don't think falconers necessarily need to be ranged in order to function in a way that makes sense, though. Sure, fighting from a distance is safer in all regards -- but employing both a firearm and a bird of prey simultaneously can go awry real fast if the falconer misses so much as a single shot (they'd endanger their bird of prey). This is why I think melee Quinn is sound from a thematic perspective. > Personally I think ranged is better on Quinn gameplay-wise Gameplay-wise, Quinn has always tip-toed between ranged and melee. Before the rework, she had an entire melee combat form, and even now she has Vault, an ability that forces her into melee range. Not to mention her lowish attack range for a Marksman -- lowish compared to other Marksmen, that is -- though I probably shouldn't use that as a metric since she's no longer classified as one. That's besides the point though. I think one of Quinn's most interesting aspects is her ability to play as an Assassin. Unfortunately Quinn has always been somewhat of a dysfunctional / half-assed Assassin. This is because proper Assassins employ escape mechanisms within their kit that allow them to exit the thick of a fight after entering one. Quinn on the other hand has no room for an escape tool in her power budget because she's a ranged character with DPS qualities. This means that until Riot gives her a definitive identity (Marksman or Assassin), she'll always be doomed to be subpar at either. This is why I'm so desperate for melee Quinn. Not only would it allow her to become the functional Assassin she was intended to be from her conception (say goodbye to suicide-bomber Quinn), it would also finally give her a definitive place within the League roster, rather than leaving her as a champion who toes multiple classes and subclasses without being successful at any particular one. Let's not forget our melee top lane bros, who could finally rejoice now that she'd no longer have an oppressive laning phase. > It makes more sense in my head to have Quinn weaken her target from a distance while having Valor swoop in for the kill I think this would be totally possible even with melee Quinn. There are a bunch of assassins in League with ranged abilities that allow them to poke or farm from a safe distance while simultaneously exerting pressure in lane (i.e. Katarina, Zed, Talon, etc). Likewise, the inverse of this could work also; that is, Valor serving as the initiator who weakens Quinn's targets first before she goes in and finishes them off herself. Both options make sense and I'd love to see the visual harmony and sense of teamwork it would create. Woo, I've gone and made a wall of text again. I hope it explains everything.
If, assuming Quinn is turned into a Melee character, I see no reason why Quinn wouldn't be able to use her crossbow for some of her abilities. ~~If the kit is at all similar, Harrier marks will still be a thing, right? It wouldn't make sense for Quinn to carelessly launch bolts at a target with heavy plate or a shield, she'd wait until her opponent is vulnerable, but be ready for any up-close issues until that time arrives. ~~ EDIT: Feels wierd. A melee assassin with periodic ranged attacks? It's different for things like Ekko's blink/dash where it's an AA modifier, but for just straight damage it doesn't seem right. Annnnnnd off to brainstorm melee Q&V... Quick Edit: If Quinn would go full assassin as melee, she probably wouldn't need the bonus attack speed from proccing Harrier marks, would she? The bonus MS would be nice still, but the attack speed lends more to sustained damage, which wouldn't be her function.
: When you're illiterate but you still go on the boards
The Shyvanah poster on the board there cracks me up "J4 Fan Club, call 444-DMCA"
: Wait, I'm genuinely confused here. You say you should get the most out of Illaoi's damage and that's all she brings to the table, but she apparently uses an item that cuts her damage by 60% really really well? How?
Illaoi is at her best, in theory, in the middle of a teamfight. Stoneplate offers 40 Armor and Magic Resistance normally, but this doubles when 3 or more enemy champions are nearby. Your spirit counts as one, so in a 2v1 situation, where you successfully pull someone's spirit (and if you're even halfway decent, you should), you have 80 Armor and MR to work with near any time you fight. As for the active, it gives you either +40% or +100% of your total health as bonus health for 4 seconds. Given that in any situation involving more than one enemy, you will always be near 3 enemies when you activate it, you get +100% of your total health as bonus hp. This is important. The shield of Sterak's Gage {{item:3053}} is equal to 75% of your bonus health. Normally, this would be anywhere from 400-1500, depending on the items you get, resulting in a shield value of 300-1200, which is decent. Factor in Gargoyle's active? You're looking at ~+3000 hp on average. That's 2250 extra shield strength. ---- "But her damage is cut by 60%!" Yes indeed, but Stoneplate only lasts 4 seconds, which is plenty of time for you to walk into the enemy team with the active, pull someone's spirit, have Sterak's Activate for that phat shield, and ult when Gargoyle wears off to heavily zone your opponents. But, that's pretty tricky to pull off, and pretty best-case scenario. More realistically: Tentacle slams heal Illaoi for 5% of her missing health. This is unaffected by damage reduction effects such as Stoneplate's active or exhaust. So if you're in a pickle, you can activate this and heal back for some pretty high numbers in the middle of a teamfight. You won't deal near as much damage, but you will survive the initial burst most characters can dish out, and with roughly the same health as you started with. **Bottom line**: Stoneplate lets Illaoi to eat a lot of damage while she walks into the enemy team to set up her ult, synergizes absurdly well with Sterak's (a core item on her), and gives her a panic button if she gets focused, all in one item. Gargoyle allows Illaoi to be a damage threat when she wants to be, and a drain tank when necessary. **Quick Edit**: Massive damage isn't all Illaoi brings to the table, but it's the vast majority of it. She has amazing zone control, and she can take a lot of punishment when build for it
Zerenza (NA)
: As an illaoi main it might be because if she could stack fervor off of the spirits she'd get an extra 60 AD with ease from it and laning against her is already hard enough. If she could stack fervor i feel like she'd be completely broken and way to good of a bully.
> As an illaoi main it might be because if she could stack fervor off of the spirits she'd get an extra 60 AD with ease from it and laning against her is already hard enough. All values taken from the practice tool: * At level 4, **17.88** AD. Illaoi typically starts to trade around this point * At level 6, **24.47** AD. Illaoi becomes a pimp slapping god * At level 9, **34.35** AD. Q or E is maxed. * At level 11, **40.49** AD. Rank 2 ult * At level 13, **47.53** AD. Illaoi maxes Q or E, whichever she didn't max first * At level 16, **57.41** AD. Rank 3 ult * At level 17, **60.71** AD. _It is only at this point, far after lane phase should have ended, where Fervor provides over 60 AD_ * At level 18, obviously, **64** AD I do agree that she'd stack it pretty well, given that her W is an AA-reset it would be a simple matter to strike the spirit twice in rapid succession, and at that point you're half stacked. As for weather or not it would make her more oppressive to lane against? Maybe. She'd be giving up Deathfire Touch, Grasp of the Undying, or Stormraider's Surge, each of which having their own merits for Illaoi. I don't think that it would be the end-all-be-all keystone for her, but it would be a strong option (would probably replace DFT, which would pale in comparison IMO). It's hard to say what effect it would have on her for certain. Either they purposefully disabled it triggering on her spirit because it was just too strong, or it's just some weird interaction that they overlooked.
Malignis (NA)
: Thunderlords can be procced on spirits as well if I recall and that also only works on enemy champions. I'm not really sure why you would choose fervor over grasp or thunderlords though since Illaoi is so ability focused and for the most part nobody wants to stay in her auto range. It would make sense if her spirit was coded as a champion though since her ult produces an extra tentacle for it and that is also supposed to be based on champions. I kind of want to test some spell interactions with it now though. Does anyone know if Rakan can use the spirit to give him the extra speed boost with his ult? That could be really helpful for an engage when Illaoi grabs a spirit since they would be slowed if they try to run away and Rakan could just zip on over with his quicksilver speed.
> I'm not really sure why you would choose fervor over grasp or thunderlords though since Illaoi is so ability focused Illaoi player here: It's true that most of Illaoi's damage comes from tentacle slams, but her W (Harsh Lesson) is an auto attack reset, and crucial to triggering tentacle slams throughout the game. Given that Tentacle Slam scales amazingly off of AD, I'd take Fervor in a heartbeat over nearly every other keystone, only taking Stormraiders situationally (Gangplank or Nasus mostly), simply because it would offer the highest damage increase of any keystone for her. Because Illaoi only really brings damage to the table as a character, getting the most out of it is important. > It would make sense if her spirit was coded as a champion though since her ult produces an extra tentacle for it and that is also supposed to be based on champions. The spirit is wierd. It counts as a champion for the purposes of: * Grasp * Thunderlords * Ult * Gargoyle Stoneplate (Which, by the way, is godly on her right now, she uses it really, really well) * Bandit * Cait's Ult * Etc. But not Fervor of Battle, which is weird considering everything else works just fine on it. You could still take FoB on Illaoi, but like you said it's pretty inconsistent. I don't really know if allowing it to trigger on spirits will make it really good on her, but my gut says that it would. Edit: Fun Illaoi Fact - Illaoi can only spawn up to 5 tentacles with her ult, even though she can hit up to 6 targets (counting the spirit)
: Going off this idea, I think it would be cool for her Q to be reminiscent of Orianna's kit. Manipulating him around the field, perhaps blocking and zoning enemies out from Quinn, but of course, you don't get to control where he goes or where he is at what time. I think that would make it this neat sort of dance in which you have to know where your partner is at what time. It would give her super-strong solo lane presence, and the in-and-out + vision would make her a viable Talon counter again, even with his rework.
My thoughts were similar to yours in this regard. I do think you should have limited influence on Valor's flight pattern. Given that Valor would orbit Quinn either clockwise or counterclockwise: * Reestablishing orbit after Blinding Assault [Q] is cast could be done in the direction it was cast. * W's activation could also signal him to switch directions in addition to it's current functionality. I think given those two options to influence Valor's flight, you could make it feel quite natural while still retaining gameplay control.
: Quinn and the Definitely-not-Eagle Valor
> They're omnipresent This is something that I feel Riot really missed both on the initial conception (can't really fault them here because they were limited on tech), and upon her rework (not even going to touch that). Valor's only around for two or three abilities, and for a limited space of time at that. If they had him flying around Quinn at all times, like you would expect him to, he could be much more important to both sides. The concern that Quinn and Valor would become more like Wolf and Lamb currently are is a valid one, but not one that I think has much ground. Wolf is only visually involved in two abilities (Wolf's Frenzy [W] and Mounting Dread [E]), and thematically involved in the passive, but aside from that, doesn't do much. If Valor were to orbit Quinn consistently, he, unlike Wolf, would have a constant presence via his role in applying Harrier marks and his Blinding Assault, something that would need to be in the back of your opponents mind consistently. This constant threat alone makes him feel much more important to both the character and the champion as a whole. This alone is not enough. To make him feel like a part of a team, rather than a tool, Valor's orbit should be dynamic. Valor would fly further from or closer to Quinn based on factors like terrain, fog of war, and current and recent enemy positions. His speed could also vary depending on these factors. * Close enemies? Valor would keep a tight orbit. * Can't see anyone as you pass through the jungle? Not as close, he'd be out a little ways to see if he can spot anything (could have him squawk when he sees enemies, would really make him feel more alive IMO while letting us get rid of our boring [W] active for something more interesting), but still close enough to help out if you get jumped. (Heck, I'd make Blinding Assault faster if it's cast towards yourself.) * Top or Bot lane? Valor's going to spend less time around the edges of the map, or in the direction of your turret than keeping an eye on the jungle, or on your lane opponents This dynamic "orbit" would give Valor a feeling of sentience, and indeed he would be thinking a great deal with your best interests in mind. Learning how to interact with Valor in the most efficient manner possible would be a keystone of a good Quinn player, learning how to work with your companion is integral to your success. --- This is getting kind of ramble-y, but I guess it boils down to this: we don't need to directly control Valor for him to be an important, thinking part of "Quinn and Valor". This isn't to say that those who feel this way are wrong, because they're not, but I feel that direct control of Valor would remove the opportunity we have here to forge Quinn&Valor into the "team" character many of us were sold on initially. Direct control of both parties risks feeling less like teamwork and more like micromanagement, but learning to work around your partner's flaws, their strengths, and everything in between is the essence of teamwork.
: Rengar was the fucking RUNT!? HES SMALL!?
I'd love to see them reflect this piece in his gameplay
: they should've kept the sound effect of the creaking wood when he talks it feels weird without it
Agree, I like the voice, it reminds me of Treebeard from LoTR, but without the creaking it's really off EDIT: Apparently I pissed someone off?
: Yeah, admittedly this came from a "this looks cool and fitting for the new Demacia" perspective rather than a "this is practical and works well with Quinn's theme" perspective :( You're totally right though, Quinn needs armor that is light, discreet, and silent to carry out her job, and this wouldn't be it. I still think it'd be badass as part of a skin line, at least.
Maybe as some sort of "parade dress" skin line? Plenty of militaries have different uniforms for work and for show, so it would definitely make a for a cool skin. I do think that the general ascetic should be built into her base though
: Personally, I love her hand crossbow, though I do agree it's a bit silly to use as a main weapon with no alternatives. I like to think that the hand crossbow could be easily hidden and that's why she uses it. I'd imagine a bow would break easier and overall be more of a hassle to deal with. Also maybe it's just because of gameplay reasons but it doesn't look like she loads her crossbow, meaning it might really be technologically advanced. Also, in the end, a crossbow that loads itself would be easier to adapt to her mobility than a bow, as the gun does most of the logistics for her, she just has to get the right shots off and dodge the creatures.
I agree with the hand crossbow (handbow? that's a little easier to type out) being much easier to hide, and I'd definitely give the bow a disadvantage on that, she actually uses it this way in her new lore pieces. As for the bow breaking easier, that's kind-of a grey area. We could debate this for both the Bow and the Handbow, it would really come down to the materials used to make each one and how many moving parts each one had. If a string breaks on a bow, it's fairly simple to restring and continue on, whereas the Handbow would probably need more extensive care if something goes wrong simply because it's got more moving parts, though I'd imagine Quinn would carry spare parts for the ones that break frequently (given that she's had it for awhile now, things are bound to have worn out by this point), those parts may or may not weigh more than a small bag of spare bowstrings. If the bow-staff or handbow itself were to break, irreparably, you're boned either way. As for the hassle involved, it really depends on the situation, though it's length would certainly be something to deal with, I think that the range, power, and potentially rate of fire gained would be worth the inconvenience (though that's personal opinion, so it's rather moot). --- Looking at her splash art, it seems like there are some sort of clips that Quinn puts into her handbow http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iZW8tH9rfKc/USVZauOnM4I/AAAAAAAACXA/5LxFMBzbzXI/s1600/quinn-splash.jpg, though I don't really know how cannon that design is right now. From the lore, the handbow is stated to be a repeating model, so the rate of fire is less of a concern than the range and power of the attacks delivered, for which a full bow would be more ideal. I guess that it really depends on what the situation ends up being, right? In tighter quarters and buildings where Valor isn't as much help, the Handbow would be better because the range advantage is wasted, and you want to be able to move around well, which a bow simply can't manage. Alternatively, if you're setting up a trap in the wilderness and Valor can give you a heads up before something arrives, the range and power of the shots over the distance will be more valuable.
: Based on one of his idle animations I thought it would be this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZThquH5t0ow
earrape warning
: That Quinn concept has problems, mainly these problems: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/soulcalibur/images/6/64/Taki3SE.jpg http://www.fightersgeneration.com/nx/chars/mileena-mk9klassic.jpg http://www.fightersgeneration.com/nx2/char/scorpion-umk3-redone.png http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters3/subzero-fullsize2.jpg If you can catch the trend, you know where I'm going with this. These characters are all ninjas. They have a massive problem - they're all wearing blaringly bright colors, which counteracts the fact that they're ninjas, and are supposed to be experts at infiltration and assassination. Wearing bright colors completely invalidates their abilities to hide and be stealthy. This Quinn concept also has this problem. Quinn is a scout for Demacia. She's intended to go into the countryside, explore the forests and mountains and fields, and spy and perform recon for her country. You can't be a spy and perform recon if you're in the middle of a forest, trying to hide from a Noxian camp, and wearing blindingly white metal and gold. Sure, it's Demacia's dress code, but not out in the wilderness, especially not out where someone should not be able to immediately identify you as an enemy spy and kill you before you can spy on them.
I was thinking the same thing. I'd imagine many of Quinn's missions take her into foreign countries, she is one of the best, and standing out like a sore thumb because of that armor would really make it hard to blend in, as well as remain as nondescript as possible. That's really one of the problems I have with Quinn's current design, she's so distinct, it actually works against her theme.
: Quinn could look really cool with the new Demacian aesthetic
I like the general look and prefer it over her default currently. **I feel the need to specify here that I'm not suggesting any sort of gameplay changes to Quinn, everything below is simply from a visual or lore perspective.** If (when?) they take a look at updating her, I hope they go in this direction artistically. I never was really a fan of her current default scheme or model, her character and lore is what really drew me in. (Specifically, and I don't know if I'm the only one or not, but I really hate her idle pose with her halfcocked leg stretching wayyyyyyyyyy out in front of her bugs me like nothing else.) Notes: * As others have stated, She probably wouldn't wear quite so much metal armor. As one of Demacia's Rangers, she needs to travel light, and more than that, she needs to be light enough to where Valor could lift her for brief periods of time. I don't doubt that she would have some Petricite somewhere on her, maybe in the clasps and rivets, given how the Demacians are in their view of magic (which I can't wait to see from Quinn's perspective), but I think the vast majority of it would be leather at the most, with the exception of a few bits. * Quinn never really did look like other Demacians. Maybe she just didn't like the uniform, or maybe it wasn't functional (shiny armor gives you away when you try to hide, and a uniform makes it hard to blend it with a crowd), but I think she should retain some of that individuality. If the general ascetic can be retained in more practical clothing, I'm all aboard! ------ While we're discussing Quinn's visual design, I'd like to discuss something that's been bugging me for a bit. Consider the following: You're a Demacian Ranger. You undertake dangerous missions both inside and outside the country, against both monster and man. Your companion speaks not in words, but with shrieks and slight movements you've grown to understand as a second language. He can spot threats from a long ways off and give you plenty of time to prepare, and given that you may need to punch through thick armor, scales, or hide, you're going to need power, accuracy, range, and a high rate of fire to keep yourself safe. What weapon do you choose? Did you say hand crossbow? Because I didn't. This is the most bothersome thing about Quinn's design to me, she uses a hand-crossbow, a weapon that wouldn't have the power, rate of fire (unless really decked out technologically), or range to put some of the things Quinn would be responsible for taking out in the ground with relative safety. If she were using a full-sized crossbow, there could be an argument made for the power and range, but the reload speed would be atrocious (again, unless it's a pretty darn fancy crossbow, which would attract attention in an urban setting), and the bulk of the weapon would make it really difficult to carry around. > All this leaves the bow as the logical weapon of choice for Quinn. Given how long Quinn's been at this, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that she'd have built up both the muscle strength and memory to use a high poundage bow, offering high powered shots with speed, range, and accuracy, without the need for any excess bells and whistles that may break in the middle of a mission or draw more attention than necessary to herself. I'm not saying that she wouldn't use a handbow, it's entirely plausable that she would keep a small fold-up sidearm attached to her hip with maybe two dozen or so bolts for it for when the bow can't be used for whatever reason, but as a main weapon my suspension of disbelief is broken. The reason it works for Vayne is because she's not looking to kill her target outright with the bolts (though if the opportunity presents itself, she'd probably take it), what she's aiming to do is fill her target with enough Silver Bolts that they die from the poisoning, staying alive by outmaneuvering it when it gets into close range, or switching to Big Bertha when things get serious. She doesn't need nondescript weaponry or armor, she doesn't really care if people recognize her, but Quinn having such a weapon, especially with no alternatives like Vayne has available to her, runs contrary to her character's goals. So would Quinn's use of a bow over a crossbow intrude on Ashe's design territory? Probably not. Ashe's gameplay is all about filling a target with as many arrows as she can in as short a time frame as possible, because if she doesn't she'll die when they get up close. Quinn's gameplay (in theory) is more about waiting for the most opportune moment to strike and keeping her target off balance when she does, and changing her weapon won't really change that, so I'm not really worried about it. **There's the issue of weather or not Quinn players really care what kind of weapon she uses or not so long as her gameplay remains untouched, and that's an entirely separate discussion. If all Quinn players are like me (spoiler: they're probably not), this may bug them too, or they may love the crossbow, I dunno, it's just my opinion and reasoning.** The only other thing I want to mention is that Quinn has no melee weapon to speak of mentioned anywhere in her lore or modeled on her character. I can't fathom the utter lack of some sort of blade for when people get into your personal space in the world of Runeterra, especially for an individual using such a short-ranged weapon as a hand crossbow. Ideally this weapon would double as a tool, it would probably be shorter than a sword, as anything that length or longer would just get in the way of general movement, but the blade would have some heft to it so that it could be used as a machete or a fire-axe when necessary while retaining it's smaller size. Personally, I'd also carry a smaller dagger, this gives Quinn a backup if her axe knife is lost, dropped, or taken, and gives her the option to dual wield, which may give her a better chance against human opponents, as well as a throwing weapon (with enough practice you could hit someone with the blade or pommel as needed) or for tasks requiring precise cuts. I don't really want these to actually be used in Quinn's abilities or attacks, but them being present on her model would allow for more interesting stories in her lore and make her feel more complete, in my humble opinion. --- *Looks up* Oh dear, I've written a book again.
: Knight's Vow recipe change * r/leagueoflegends
A well reasoned concept? Blasphemy! Typed out a whole big thing, but I can't really find a reason to dislike this. If the HP/Armor is balanced out well with the active, it'll be a solid item that appeals only really to those in the support role. The only thing I can really say as a critique is maybe adding another cloth armor to the final recipe (So: Squire's Pact + {{item:3801}} + {{item:1029}} + 450g = {{item:3109}} ), that way the support can buy components as he gets the gold, rather than needing to save it up (not that 750 is hard to get, this just helps if he's behind.)
: Do Mage Items Require Another Rework?
I know I'm late to the party, but: > {{item:3089}} I always felt like this item was intended to be the mage version of ER or IE. However, it's bought as a later item. Instead of it just being a power spike, why can't it fulfill a niche for certain mages? What if damaging abilities could critically strike, just like basic attacks do? Rabadons could then increase critical strike damage by 50% like IE does. Before I get lynched: I'm not saying to just allow abilities to critically strike without changing anything else about the game, obviously there's so much number work that would need to be done it's unreal, so I'm not even going to touch specific abilities, but in general. * All characters possess innate Critical Strike Chance. Some (Hi {{champion:115}}) would have higher base Critical Strike than others. This allows everyone the chance to Crit naturally, even if it's rarely. * Critical Strikes deal 150% damage. Rabadons or Infinity Edge would increase this back to 200%. This prevents lucky critical strikes from swinging the early game (Before Rabadons or IE are purchased). * Critical Strikes for multi-target and multi-strike abilities are calculated on a per-target/strike basis to prevent a single lucky spell from deleting the victim. --- This has the added benefit of naturally excluding supportive characters, who's abilities are not always offensive in nature (therefore not benefiting from Crit). AP as a whole can afford to be normalized then, as Mages would seek Critical Strike to multiply their AP, while Supports would seek out other effects. Mages may still dip into Support itemization from time to time, but more situationally rather than by default. This does have implications for other classes as well, but because of the sheer amount of work that would need to be done to get this working right (Every single character and all of their abilities, items would need to be reworked completely, etc.), I doubt it would ever happen. **Obviously, the effects of this would rock the very foundation of the game, and I don't expect Riot to ever do something like this to the game. This was just to bounce ideas off of OP, please don't crucify me.**
: Actually she waste a lot of mana and doesn't really have good combo follow up unless you give her a lead, people hate her because her ult that give her extreme speed to gank out of no where + with the lethality items means she can kill a person so fast. I really want Quin to have a mini rework so she can be a ADC, just making sure what is Quin anyways? I know kindred is obviously a jungler but what is Quin?
Can she function as an ADC? yea, but it's not the way many people play her. If she were to be pushed further into an ADC, I think a lot of people would quit playing her entirely. Many people play her in the Top lane because she is overly dominant against melee characters, and while they may play her for that reason, I think if you asked any of them if that was really fair, they would agree that it wasn't. To be honest, if they push her in any direction, It should be the jungle. She an exceptional duelist, and it fits her theme extremely well. Indeed, if she were not so overwhelming in the top lane, I think that's where she would primarily reside.
: Quinn's kill patterns lack sufficient nuance. (R)E -> AA is oftentimes enough to dispatch a single squishy foe. What makes this problematic is that the combo is entirely point-and-click, save for Skystrike which affects such a large area that it may as well count as a point-and-click ability anyway. What risk used to be involved in casting Vault offensively is now virtually nonexistent due to the sheer burst coming from (R)E -> AA and the safety net provided by Edge of Night's spellshield. Again, her assassinations should actually require skill and offer more depth than just jumping on someone and hitting them with a line skillshot. Moving forward, there are multiple approaches one could take to assuage/resolve this issue: (a) Lower the damage from Vault or Harrier so Quinn's sheer burst is reduced; (b) Turn E into a skillshot in favor of giving Quinn the need for more tactical finesse; (c) Make it so that Harrier's damage scales with the amount of times Quinn has successfully applied it -- so, the first Harrier proc in a fight would do less damage than it currently does, but the third one would hurt a lot more. Encourages more prolonged, sustained fights and less instant nuking. I'm personally in favor of (b), not only because (a) and (c) actually fail to preserve what I believe to be one of Quinn's core strengths (burst), but because it actually addresses the main issue here: most of Quinn's damage is point-and-click. But all 3 options are viable, I think.
I'm leaning towards option (b) as well, but I'm beginning to think that the Harrier mark should be more than just an AA enhancer. Building off of that thought, we could do something like: > Vault causes Quinn leap forward, launching herself over the first enemy unit or terrain she encounters, landing up to 550(?) distance opposite of it. Enemies Quinn Vaults off of are knocked back slightly, afflicted by a decaying slow, dealt moderate physical damage and marked by Harrier (Like they are currenctly). > Vaulting off a target already marked by Harrier causes Quinn to leap backwards instead. I'm imaginining some sort of rolling dive, should she fail to make contact with a target. And: > Blinding Assault no longer afflicts the primary target with Nearsight. Instead, any targets marked with Harrier struck by the AoE are Near-sighted, and the primary target is marked with Harrier afterwards as it currently functions. This sort of effects (though not these specifically, they're just examples) make use of the currently wasted Harrier marks and make the Quinn player choose how to execute their attacks, waiting for Valor to target the enemy with your passive before going in with E->AA->Q->AA telegraphs Quinn's all-in to a degree, while giving the opponent ways to avoid it by dodging Q, E, or both. These sort of effects make better use of Harrier marks that would otherwise be wasted in Quinn (& Valor's) current iteration.
: Another issue I think Quinn has is that she doesn't exactly have an identity, let me explain. She's ranged AD, so we would assume she'd be more of a bot laner Her Q gives the jungle minions a debuff, and her kit allows for jungle clear that is efficient. This makes jungle Quinn effective Her assassin like damage and long ranged Q allow for her to be played mid, if done right. Her self peel, damage and counter melee style allows for efficient top lane gameplay as well. She basically does everything to a viable extent, which can be considered a problem. I'd like to see Riot give her adjustments to push her heavily towards a certain spot where she does good, and have the others much less effective.
Personally, I think she'd be best suited to the jungle, from a thematic standpoint. Quinn&Valor are the "special forces" of Demacia, and their whole thing is being "behind enemy lines" and pulling off tricky missions. Pushing her to the jungle makes complete sense in regards to this identity. This isn't to say that I don't think she should be able to pull off other roles, but she's already meh as an ADC, and that doesn't really fit her character at all, top/mid her tools become incredibly oppressive or manageable, depending on who she's against. Being in the jungle lets her support her team via ganks and objective taking, which seems more like the Q&V I know and love than the oppressive lane bully.
: > [{quoted}](name=Varnoc,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6T6geh6,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-02-14T15:19:33.529+0000) > > Though, if you miss apprehend you're boned. That could be said for just about any Darius matchup though I suppose. Fine by me. If I miss I suck and I can slap myself for sucking. If I cant apprehend her PERIOD because she has a spell shield for ten seconds, that's infuriating and unfair. Theres a difference between missing and just not being able to grab, ever...
: I have zero beef with quinn. I have beef with edge of night. As darius you can potentially apprehend quinn and get a very, very favorable trade. When quinn gets edge of night, that counterplay potential vanishes and she just becomes uncounterable garbage.
Though, if you miss apprehend you're boned. That could be said for just about any Darius matchup though I suppose.
: I played Quinn alot back before she got reworked, I think the issue is simply this: Her kit is perfect for dealing with almost every single melee type champion. Her passive gives massive burst that can be triple proced (passive, q, e) in quick secession for damage that is difficult to answer. Her Q is a strong vision disruption that is AOE so melee champions have a difficult time dodging it if they are trying to farm. Her W gives attack speed passively (I think it still does) and makes her harder to gank from the vision. Her E is extremely problematic for most meta champions in top lane. Not only does it slow, disrupt and cause a free passive proc, but it gives her perfect kiting against almost all melee champions. And her ult is perfect for roaming to pressure the other lanes. I think the hate she gets is because she's BASICALLY an extremely strong AD teemo. And I guess she can abuse the new lethality items so that gives her some extra hate.
Same boat with you on playing Quinn quite a bit before her rework, though I did play some afterwards, I can't bring myself to play her anymore. So the gist of it is that Melee characters have really no chance at all against her then? (This is likely one of the major factors in her being played mostly in the top lane.) W does indeed give attack speed (and movement speed), but only after she triggers her passive, which isn't that hard to do. --- In theory, the Blind should be more effective against ranged characters than melee ones, as you can still see things near you, but the movements of a melee character are more predictable than a ranged one in my opinion, making it easier to hit, and combined with your disengage from Vault, she can be pretty safe against just about any melee character because of it. I do agree with the idea that people are complaining about her (more) because of the Lethality changes, as she uses them pretty well.
Rioter Comments
: So is anyone else sick of Quinn
As much as I love her as a character, I know (and I've seen many other "Mains" express this opinion) that she's very unfun/unfair to play against. Personally, that's one of the reasons I don't play her near as often as I used to now-a-days. What specifically do you find frustrating about her? I have a pretty good idea of what it is most people dislike, but you may be different.
Sukishoo (NA)
: Cassiopeia's tail update wasn't shipped though, they are still working on it. So they probably won't do others till they work out hers.
Didn't realize they hadn't shipped it, but yea this isn't a priority by any stretch of the imagination. I wouldn't be surprised if they already considered him to be honest.
DJ Lucio (NA)
: Yea, I wish they'd give him a VGU. His tail look so linear and outdated
I agree. He's not as high priority as some other characters (Eve, Urgot, Galio, etc.) but is still pretty dated looking. Given the lower priority that places him at, I'm hoping this is a quick thing they could do to improve his general visual quality in the meantime.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Varnoc,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAYVcZ56,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T22:36:16.925+0000) > > For 1 and 2, from the op: > > What this means is that player A crits the target, crits from players B, C, D, and E all either occur more often, or deal more damage. There's probably more effects, but those came to mind. It isn't something that applies to just player A. > > Fair, will edit OP with that. Hmm, but if it were the first one, a few lucky crits would help out the rest of their team even more, with more crits, while perhaps the other team didn't get crits, and is stuck with the same low crit chance. Also means ADC's and mages all get a version of the Expose Weakness mastery. Eh... puts a bit too much emphasis on them for my liking, not being an ADC or mage main.
Slayers and Fighters would use Crit as well, just less so than Mages/Marksmen, so the latter wouldn't be the only beneficiaries. I agree that it's imperfect, but Id rather the group oriented Crit system to the one we have currently to be honest.
: > [{quoted}](name=Varnoc,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAYVcZ56,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-19T21:11:34.272+0000) > > 1. Ideally, the "crit amp" stacks would fall off at a rate at which, unless pretty heavily focused, shouldn't be a long-term problem. Compounded with reduced damage across the board. What's wrong with fights being decided by the team? > > 2. That's something that really depends on how the numbers are worked out. Because many Mages have some form of AoE, they apply Crit pretty consistently with the psuedo-RNG system Crit currently runs on in theory. The idea is that Crit would be integrated into items that Mages would normally want anyway, Rabadons, Abyssal, Liandries, etc. Because there are so many moving parts to this question it could swing into either "underwhelming" or "overwhelming", depending on how the numbers are used. > > 3. thatsthejoke.jpg , It would need to be looked at, certainly. > > 4. Is it healthy to promote team play? I think so. Is the manner in which it's done here healthy? Dunno. That's why I've been hesitant to post this. The answer to the remainder of your question is... it depends. Unfortunately, most of the specific questions are going to end up with that answer because without hard numbers it's really hard to test, mentally or otherwise. All I can offer is conjecture without hard numbers. The idea is to provide an opportunity to act that you would otherwise not have with the "Crit Vulnerability" stacks, if it doesn't achieve that, I don't see a reason for it to stick around. > > 5. If used as the only balance leaver, yes. 1. I don't understand. What do you mean? How does this have anything to do with anyone's team? 4. Huh? What's the correlationg between this and team play? 5. That's not gonna happen. What about base stats, base damages, durations, etc? Also this: t's worth noting that characters that deal their damage over a series of smaller ticks like , , , , , etc. can apply Critical Strike more often, meaning that they'd likely have a lower base Crit Chance. Whereas characters that apply their damage in short bursts like , ,, , , etc. would tend towards higher base Critical Strike Chance. is completely inaccurate, as although those champions can crit more often, their crit's would do less damage, therefore it would theoretically completely balance out.
For 1 and 2, from the op: > Consecutive Critical Strikes (from any source) against the same target deal increasing amounts of damage or would have a higher chance to critically strike. This would reinforce the idea that Critical Strikes are opportunities to be capitalized on, rather than just a lucky damage bonus. This would likely take the form of a stacking debuff that falls off one at a time, refreshing when critically struck. This also rewards group play without being overt about it. What this means is that player A crits the target, crits from players B, C, D, and E all either occur more often, or deal more damage. There's probably more effects, but those came to mind. It isn't something that applies to just player A. > That's completely inaccurate, as although those champions can crit more often, their crit's would do less damage, therefore it would theoretically completely balance out. Fair, will edit OP with that.
Meddler (NA)
: Yep. We're trying to reduce cases of 'nerf the champion then nerf the other thing that was the real problem'. Not to say there won't be cases where a champion's too strong something they're taking advantage of is also too strong, but we're looking to hit items/jungle/masteries/other systems first where appropriate.
Just finished something that I wanted to bring to your attention. I doubt there's anything in here that you've not discussed internally before, but I hope that it brings up something useful to you. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/NAYVcZ56-regarding-critical-strike
: 1. Sure anyone can crit, now all fights will be decided mostly by RNG and how many crits people got, instead of just fights with ADC's, Yasuo, or Trynd. 2. Not sure giving mages a 150% damage amplifier as a stat they could build is a good idea. That's because it's either reliable enough that they would always get it, making anything else suboptimal, or the crit is low enough to either be regarded as something extra that may come in handy sometimes (RoA's healing per spell cast, for example), but then the items would have to make mages strong enough to do their job _without_ that crit, making any crits overkill and op, or if damage is balanced around critting, but critting is unreliable, then damage would be shit. 3. Any item being mandatory is not too healthy. 4. Is it really healthy though? Wouldn't crit chance make things so much harder to balance? Or maybe they are balanced, but then random crits make things feel op anyway, and make you lose a fight you by all rights should have won? 5. Uh... base Crit should be low enough to be unreliable, else that's just too strong, but using something unreliable as a balance lever means that it's only balanced... sometimes.
1. Ideally, the "crit amp" stacks would fall off at a rate at which, unless pretty heavily focused, shouldn't be a long-term problem. Compounded with reduced damage across the board. What's wrong with fights being decided by the team? 2. That's something that really depends on how the numbers are worked out. Because many Mages have some form of AoE, they apply Crit pretty consistently with the psuedo-RNG system Crit currently runs on in theory. The idea is that Crit would be integrated into items that Mages would normally want anyway, Rabadons, Abyssal, Liandries, etc. Because there are so many moving parts to this question it could swing into either "underwhelming" or "overwhelming", depending on how the numbers are used. 3. thatsthejoke.jpg , It would need to be looked at, certainly. 4. Is it healthy to promote team play? I think so. Is the manner in which it's done here healthy? Dunno. That's why I've been hesitant to post this. The answer to the remainder of your question is... it depends. Unfortunately, most of the specific questions are going to end up with that answer because without hard numbers it's really hard to test, mentally or otherwise. All I can offer is conjecture without hard numbers. The idea is to provide an opportunity to act that you would otherwise not have with the "Crit Vulnerability" stacks, if it doesn't achieve that, I don't see a reason for it to stick around. 5. If used as the only balance leaver, yes.
Rioter Comments
: Quinn should have been the premiere Marksman-Assassin
I used to play Quinn & Valor pretty consistently. While the rework did many good things, I simply don't enjoy playing her anymore. There doesn't feel like there's any nuance to playing her anymore. Maybe there never was and I just didn't see it? It's hard to pinpoint exactly what I loved about Q&V back then, so maybe it's just rose-tinted-glasses talking. Barring the fact that playing her top-lane makes me feel like a massive douche (since you're basically telling the other guy he's not playing the game for the next 20-30m, this was the same before the rework though), I don't feel like I won due to my skill with the character, I feel like I cheesed the game. I do hope she gets some attention soon (though I doubt it, sadly). I tried to like the rework, I really did. I was telling everyone to give it a chance when people were shouting that it destroyed the character. At the end of the day though, I just don't enjoy "just Quinn" anymore.
: Quick Fix for Karma
Well thought out. After re-reading it a few times, I like what I'm hearing. The only question I've got is regarding the passive; > Karma reduces Mantra's cooldown by 2/2.5/3 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with an ability, halved to 1/1.25/1.5 seconds when using basic attacks or when affecting other allied champions with spells. This ability can not reduce the cooldown by more than 4/5/6s per spell. Am I correct in my understanding that if I were to hit 3+ enemies with a Q during the late game, it would only shave off 6 seconds? That would be pretty lame. My assumption is that "This ability cannot reduce the cooldown by more than 4/5/6s per spell." exists solely to keep Mantra+E in check, correct? Hitting all 10 players with this ability would be pretty stupid, considering it's instant. Assuming that the answer to that is, at least partially, yes: Why not make the damaging portion of the "Shield Bomb" delayed? This gives the enemy team time to react to Karma's actions, rather than instant damage that can't be played around. With that delay, 7.5 seconds off Mantra immediately in an ideal scenario is reasonable. The remaining potential 15s is then in the hands of your opponent, they have time to react to the situation and attempt to deny you that additional CDR. Additionally, whomever you shielded (if they know what's up) would want to hit as many people as possible with it, making for some interesting team play. 2 Mantra charges where!? (I jest, I know why this can't happen.) --- Other than that, lovely piece. Fine work as usual Squid.
: > [{quoted}](name=Anu3isII,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Eizh6V48,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-01-07T09:08:00.612+0000) > > While it fits thematically, it would need some serious number balances (nerfs) across all his kit. > > His current Passive is like Old Zyra's Passive: the opposite of his play style. Any Passive that enchants his play style would seriously break him without careful changes to his base kit. > > While I admit it should be changed, it will be very difficult to balance him, and it will require a lot of time till he will be in a balanced spot. Honestly imo Kog'Maw is in the best spot balance wise he has been in a while. The post made was all about how fitting it would be thematically being an even better tank shredder along with fitting a corrosive theme. Changing his passive to this would likely result in a heavy nerf to Q and W and potentially leaving Kog'Maw in an even worse spot.
Probably should have gone to the Art & Story Board in that case :P
: Why is Tank Karma a thing?
If you're asking why one plays Tank Karma: I personally find the playstyle to be more in line with Karma's character and old Kit (which I played the crap out of before her rework). The Q-spam bot playstyle bores me to tears, so I avoid it as much as I can. The tank build allows me a more true freedom of choice when it comes to my Mantra's use, as any of them become valid options. If you're asking why Riot's allowed Tank Karma to be a thing: The damage Karma gives up to build tank is quite significant. Because Karma gives up a significant portion of her offensive power to build this way, I think they see it as a reasonable tradeoff, independent of the play experience it creates.
Ralanr (NA)
: Stupid idea: What if we just removed crit from the game..
Marksmen being centered around Crit as always bothered me. The entire reason they exist is to provide the best sustained DPS of any class versus objectives, yet Critical Strike doesn't do jack against structures. Really, Critical Strike makes more sense as a Fighter statistic in my opinion. By their nature in this game Figthers have rather short windows of time to attack opponents in melee, and making the most of each attack makes sense to me. Marksmen, on the other hand, have more of an opportunity to rattle off shots in rapid succession due to their inherent range advantage. This said, I do not like how large a swing in damage a Critical Strike can provide. I'd be more at ease with Critical Strikes dealing 150% damage, rather than 200% normally, causing less drastic damage swings if someone (Looking at you, Tryndamere) does manage to crit. --- **Insane rambling zone, don't burn me at the stake for anything below this point.** It would be interesting for characters to have natural Critical Strike chance growth, while nerfing the amount you can easily attain through items. This would cause certain characters to need to invest more heavily into items that provide the statistic than others. For instance, fighters would have a higher growth than tanks, etc. but everyone would crit every once and awhile, though it would only be for 150%, rather than 200%. * The natural growth could possibly be calculated similarly to armor and magic resistance? The more of it you get, the less effective it becomes, though maybe at a less drastic rate. Perhaps it could be called "Focus" or something of the like. Giving spells the ability to critically strike. Obviously, spell damage would likely, overall, be reduced as a result, but mages that rely on consistent spellcasting to deal damage would naturally benefit more from this than burst mages, as they have more opportunities to trigger the effect. * Keep in mind, spells would not be dealing double damage, but 150% of normal damage, so the damage swing wouldn't be as high as you'd imagine. * Mages would have a stat they would want to reach for aside from raw ability power. This stat would have little appeal to support classes, as their spells are mostly utilitarian in nature. This could result in items for the support class that Mages are less likely to abuse. The question that arises is thus: should just damage abilities crit, or can abilities that heal and shield also "Critically Strike"? **Insane rambling zone, don't burn me at the stake for anything above this point.**
nm1010 (NA)
: Its not making it sound overpowered, you said you don't see a reason to pick karthus over syndra. All of the things I listed are things karthus brings over syndra. Basically a much stronger team champion that has weaker laning. Not to mention stats wise the main points syndra beats karthus at is play rate, ban rate, and killing spree. They both run high deaths, but karthus does nearly 25% more damage and similar kills per game. It could be the high pick rate after worlds, but syndra is actually performing much worse currently than karthus. Maybe worry more about answering your question rather than trying* to sound smart.
> Maybe worry more about answering your question rather than trying* to sound smart. Wait, what?
Avios1 (NA)
: What if Karthus could move while using Q? (Lay Waste)
Removal of the cast time on his Q does a couple of interesting things: * CDR becomes far more valuable; Because you're not stopping yourself each time you cast Lay Waste, and therefore putting yourself at risk of being smacked by any number of skillshot, you're put at less of a disadvantage for making full use of it. * Basic attacks become usable. This must be considered when making such a change, as it will, in most every scenario once practiced, increase DPS by a small amount. * Makes him more "Mobile". Not really a bad thing, in my opinion, since Karthus is so reliant on kiting enemies, buffing his intended strengths isn't a bad thing. As for only allowing it to be used without a cast time during Defile, in addition to the above: * Causes a natural ramp-up towards the mid-game when Karthus has a few mana items in his inventory (Tear, RoA, Morello, etc.), as the mana battery allows him to make full use of the mechanic * Allows higher level of mastery to Karthus players, the ability to pulse Defile for cast-time free Lay Wastes would be an essential trick in higher divisions. * Turning Defile on would increase Karthus's DPS by allowing him to weave autos freely. ---- What it really comes down to is this: does it add to the gameplay for both sides? Maybe. It really will all come down to what Riot does with Ryali's, because if Karthus is allowed to chain 0.6 second Lay Wastes on a target with free movement, there's going to be problems. I think that if Karthus is in a worse spot after the the Ryali's nerfs (and I think we all know he will be), this would be a good buff to him to compensate, without going overboard on things.
Saianna (EUNE)
: I know she was supposed to be a assassin-type diver. But cause of itemization she became a juggernaut'ish bruiser. With tank-like utility And assassin like damage --- I'm not saying she is broken, okay? Got that? All I am saying she has too much of everything in her kit. Especially tankiness & burst damage. This combination makes her pain in ass to deal with.
> I'm not saying she is broken, okay? Got that? Uh, yea? You never really implied that she was broken. Not sure why this is so hostile. > All I am saying she has too much of everything in her kit. Especially tankiness & burst damage. I'd agree with this, If anything is to be done, I'd imagine that her damage will become less burst oriented and more drawn out, even though that'll tick off people that enjoy playing her as an Assassin. I think that they may be putting her off until the Diver update, where they can do some systematic changes instead of number just tweaks.
: > [{quoted}](name=Varnoc,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uKH4BKEe,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-07T13:29:49.384+0000) > > Diana was designed as a Fighter (Diver, to be more specific) IIRC. This is somewhat evidenced by her Moonfall (E) ability, the "vacuum", you'll notice that none of the "true" assassins have any abilities rivaling it in terms of CC potential. > > As for why her assassin build has been allowed to exist for so long now, I don't really have a concrete answer, but If it had to guess, it's because she gives up quite a bit of durability to go assassin, or quite a bit of damage to go tanky, and there's no highly effective middle ground that abuses both facets of the character. > > I could be wrong about this, and I probably am, but that's my opinion on the subject, not that you asked :^) iirc fighters didn't exist when she was designed she was considered an assassin also im mad we still have no moon pony princess luna diana skin and generally no good skins for her
Fighter subclasses (Juggernauts and Divers) were indeed undefined at the time, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't design her as a Diver just because they didn't have the label nailed down yet. Jumping to the present, here are [Riot's definitions of each class](http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses) Divers: > Divers are the more mobile portion of the Fighter class. *Divers excel at singling out high-priority targets to blitz toward, immediately forcing those targets (and their teammates) to deal with the diver’s presence.* Divers are not as durable as the tanks or juggernauts of the world, but **Divers can take their fair share of punishment while bringing enough damage to be a real kill threat if left unchecked.** Assassins: > _Assassins specialize in infiltrating enemy lines with their unrivaled mobility to quickly dispatch high-priority targets._ Due to their mostly melee nature, Assassins must put them themselves into dangerous positions in order to execute their targets. Luckily, they often have** defensive tricks up their sleeves that, if used cleverly, allow them to effectively avoid incoming damage.** Based on these definitions, Diana seems to fall more into the former than the latter. Her defensive tool in particular, her shield, pushes her towards a Diver's role than an Assassin, simply due to the way it scales in effectiveness. There is an argument to be had for it allowing Diana to "effectively avoid incoming damage", but it's in no way similar to other assassins; Akali's shroud, Fizz's Troll Pole, Kat's Shunpo, Zed's Shadow swapping; all of these tools have a high level of nuance to them, letting you outplay your opponents by avoiding their skills with masterful play, and Diana's shield doesn't really have that. It's ideal use is being activated as you dive your target for guaranteed proccing of the secondary spheres for both the damage, and the increased shield strength. All this isn't to say that she's not played as an Assassin currently though, or that it's not her most effective play-style. Simply that by examining her abilities and the definitions Riot has provided for their classes, that Diana appears to fall more into the role of Diver than Assassin, even if the terms didn't exists back when she was developed. The lack of any really impressive skin bothers me as well, though I am rather fond of her base skin anyway.
Saianna (EUNE)
: Diana is like legit-build tank-akali. And somehow Riot is totally fine with it. Meh
Diana was designed as a Fighter (Diver, to be more specific) IIRC. This is somewhat evidenced by her Moonfall (E) ability, the "vacuum", you'll notice that none of the "true" assassins have any abilities rivaling it in terms of CC potential. As for why her assassin build has been allowed to exist for so long now, I don't really have a concrete answer, but If it had to guess, it's because she gives up quite a bit of durability to go assassin, or quite a bit of damage to go tanky, and there's no highly effective middle ground that abuses both facets of the character. I could be wrong about this, and I probably am, but that's my opinion on the subject, not that you asked :^)
Pyro (EUNE)
: [Preseason] Itemization Issues - Support Tanks Are CDR Starved
I think Tank Supports may need a building block of their own to play with, much like Enchanters have in {{item:3114}} (Though I wish the Regen was a little higher or something on it, because the combine cost is pretty absurd right now.) --- I think {{item:3801}} could fit the bill pretty nicely if you slapped some CDR onto it. Obviously, the cost would need to increase to compensate, and a +200g increase would put it at 850g total, which is on par with {{item:3114}} 's cost (though arguably providing a better stat spread IMO). --- The problem with this is that it becomes highly efficent with only a 200g increase to price, and it invalidates {{item:3067}} nearly completely, as everything that it builds into (with the exception of {{item:3152}} after the Pre-Season changes, though it sounds like a little price increase wouldn't hurt it really) already has Health Regeneration on it anyway.
: Make fervor of Battle give bonus AD according to the champs base AD.
Extending your line of thought, this would give Juggernauts a good reason to dive into the ferocity tree, due to their higher base AD and tendency to drag out fights. Not saying it's a bad or good thing, simply an observation.
: That'd be really cool, and basically play like before. Or compromise and make ult throw out a Q every second (half second?) or so for 3 seconds.
The more I think about her throwing out a bunch of Q's the more I like it. Given the fact that they bounce between targets a little, the up-front damage wouldn't be anything to sneeze at, espically if someone is hit by multiple blades in rapid succession, but the damage being split fairly evenly between this up-front damage and the pickup flourishes gives it the desired delay Riot has stated they're aiming for. Ending the effect early, weather by necessity or by external sources (read: CC), would still suck, but wouldn't put Kat in a near useless state, as she would still have more options than she currently does for hopping around (though those will tend to be aggressive hops due to the nature of her Q's mechanics.) Conversely, should Kat decide to channel the full duration of the ultimate people have time to move away from the blades as they fall. Prompting the player to keep an eye on enemies and determine weather it is better to continue channeling, or to halt the spell prematurely and jump onto a blade to finish off an opponent to trigger her passive. I like the concept.
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Varnoc

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