Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 16
{{champion:55}} Not a balance question. Seems too good in the right hands and too inaccessible the rest of the time. Do you think she could benefit from any changes that could make her more enjoyable for everyone involved? Personally, I think replacing W with a pbaoe dot is an idea with some potential. Reigns in some of the extremes in terms of skill requirement, counterplay, damage ceiling, and narrow itemization. Thoughts on something like that? Or are you happy with the current iteration for the foreseeable future?
Meddler (NA)
: Will see where she lands. The new passive has substantial damage on it. So far she's still been a really meaningful damage threat in our playtests internally. Thoughts sometime in the next couple of weeks.
Concern about over-reliance on team coordination? What is range on passive?
: Is the game really in a good balance state right now?
{{champion:14}} Agreed. I'm legit sick to fucking death of this kind of thing. It takes Sion longer than the .5 seconds it takes an AD assassin to kill you, but you probably only have the same .5 seconds where you can actually do anything with your character. And people are like "this is fine." Totally do not get it. {{champion:141}} {{champion:55}} These are ones that aren't fun to play against, but I just remind myself that I'm more likely to win the game if the enemy picks them. They're super obnoxious and demoralizing, but I get off tilt by remembering the odds are in my favor. I do have to say that it's *very* hard to not tilt against an assassin Kayn when his kill combo is the mechanical equivalent of CSing with Annie. {{champion:86}} This is similar to the assassin Kayn issue. It never feels like Garen wins any fight legitimately. He can lose trades and win them retroactively with his passive. He gets shitloads of free stats in his kit. It's generally obnoxious having to play around his Q and ult so carefully while knowing that he has perhaps the lowest-effort mechanics in the game. {{champion:24}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:77}} Basically deal assassin-level damage while killing you 100-0 in a hard cc while still being extremely difficult to kill. {{champion:35}} Literally the most enraging thing in this game. Invisibility has absolutely no counter when there's a blink attached to it. {{champion:29}} Detection radius on his pointlessly small, and it's completely asinine that he can use Q as a disengage without damage interrupting the fade or knocking him out of camo.
: HOLY SHIT! I thought Engish ahri was porny but look at the korean!
My cat literally hissed at the sound of this video.
Âzir (OCE)
: LeBlanc 1-shots 1 person, not the whole team... What kind of comparison is this...
A comparison about lane sustain. Kat's hp5 was too much lane sustain for a a lane bully assassin back in season 5. That's how much times have changed. Akali's sustain pre update was justified by having the worst pre-6 lanes in the game. Give her the Katarina treatment.
: Not a zyra mid main but I play it often when I want to be a lane bully. It actually feels great to use and I never understood the "forced to support" thing. You can kill someone off a q w poke and then can basically kill anything if you land snare and your basic ult combo + ignite. You can push and punish LB easily as well as trade kills with talon if you play it safely
Does that Talon not have QWE keys on his keyboard?
: > [{quoted}](name=Vekkna,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=0dpYn3jX,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-15T22:18:49.238+0000) > > The screenshot on the right was posted to twitter for the first time *today.* So that's a no. > > You also seem to be confused about some things. The base skin and a bunch of the chromas look amazing, and they show little or no skin. One or two of the other chromas didn't have any changes to the ample cleavage. > > The complaint is that this specific chroma looks worse now than when it first went on PBE. If I cared that much about cleavage I could use one of the others that wasn't censored. > > It's like witches have no way to preserve their youth. If only they had, like....some magic to help with that. That's because the one on the right is even more different than what's been posted earlier. That purple piece at her neck and the top of her cleavage is new, as before, it simply shrunk her cleavage window. I personally don't mind the newest iteration of this chroma. I don't see how it looks worse unless you're concerned about her disappearing boob window.
>That's because the one on the right is even more different than what's been posted earlier. Which is, like, the entire point of the post. They also added shorts. >I don't see how it looks worse unless you're concerned about her disappearing boob window. The entire brooch looks like it was done in MS paint. The cut of the neckline doesn't follow the curve of the lines in the blue fabric. The v-shape collar was contiguous with the v-shapes throughout the design from the center of her helmet/horns, her chin, the v-cut of the bodice, and the repeating v-shapes below the waist. The shorts cover the outside of her thighs for some reason, and it obscures the v-shapes from the purple coat. It's pretty apparent that the original design incorporated concentric curves and repeating angles. Attention to that sort of detail is a major part of good design. The revised version ignores all of that, and, imo looks jumbled and cluttered as a result. If they wanted to censor it, they should have just filled in the torso skin with a solid color. At least that would have accomplished the censorship without compromising the quality of the design.
: Have you been the one repeatedly posting this for like the past week? I'm tired of seeing people rage about the fact that they've covered up some of her cleavage. It's Camille, she's canonically 80, and she's one of the most modest female champions in the game. It doesn't make sense that she's got gigantic cleavage in the original version of this chroma, because that's not part of Camille's theme. The modifications improve it and mesh it better with Camille's modesty.
The screenshot on the right was posted to twitter for the first time *today.* So that's a no. But you sound super mad at that other poster. >I'm tired of seeing people rage about the fact that they've covered up some of her cleavage. You also seem to be confused about some things. The base skin and a bunch of the chromas look amazing, and they show little or no skin. One or two of the other chromas didn't have any changes to the ample cleavage. The complaint is that this specific chroma looks worse now than when it first went on PBE. If I cared that much about cleavage I could use one of the others that wasn't censored. >she's canonically 80, and she's one of the most modest female champions in the game. It's like witches have no way to preserve their youth. If only they had, like....some magic to help with that.
Rioter Comments
: Why is riot doing this! Omg!!
There are a whopping 7 ranged champions in the top **30** bans right now. You seriously think range is the problem? LOL.
: Why is riot doing this! Omg!!
> [{quoted}](name=imfoolish,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6uzbfHO1,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-11-15T20:47:17.590+0000) > > New dark harvest is going to make range champion do extra damage to u while ur below 50% health is not cool. (any damage to champion while they are below 50% health deals bonus damage + dh souls that are harvested when hitting someone with lower then 50% health.) it's so op and easily proc. Plz do not allow range champions to use this rune. Because 8 AA-only keystones isn't enough for you? If anything, Dark Harvest should only proc on ranged abilities that deal magic damage. That would be one tiny first step in balancing the blatant AD/aa bias in the entire rune system.
: As much as we complain about damage...
Tbh, the cc problem mostly fixes itself when you fix the damage problem. Think about it. If it takes 1 second to 100-0 something, suddenly there's a *huge* amount of cc that is potentially lethal. If it takes 5 seconds to 100-0 something, suddenly nobody is dying 100-0 in a cc lock without a well-coordinated cc chain from 3+ enemy champs.
: “We want melee champions to be able to survive against ranged poke” “Why does X melee champion have minor sustain?!”
{{champion:55}} patch note from 5.6: >*Base Health and regen down. Health per level up.* For one of the heaviest snowball champions in league, Katarina's lane-bully potential is enabled by having the base-stats to win wars of attrition with enemy mids, whittling them down for the kill. We're pulling back on that to give her opponents a better window of vulnerability to exploit. Akali's ban rate has been ~65-78% globally in plat+ since her rework. Katarina has *never* had higher than 65% ban rate, even at her peak in season 5. To be fair, it's hard to say whether this is favoritism towards Akali or just one of many times Katarina got the red-headed stepchild treatment from Riot. When Kat does what Leblanc does, Kat gets her combo nerfed by 44 - 124 base + .3 AD and +4 second CD on shunpo. Leblanc gets -10 base damage on W.
Stelyar (NA)
: Late (extremely) response because I'm inexperienced with the boards and just found out how to view if someone replied without trying to find my comment among the sea of comments. I intended for it to be a late game sustain rather than lane, since it would only apply on RoA after the 10 stacks have been hit, (I realize I never said after 10 stacks but I really liked the concept of a final reward on RoA). Plus, because it has a scaling built into the sustain it would favor late game once they get enough mana/ap/whatever it would scale on to give a decent amount of sustain. Of course it would need to be balanced for spell spammers, with either a timer, or a short debuff similar to that from {{summoner:7}}
Yeah, I think that would be awesome. Maybe something like this? > Eternity passive effects increase by 10% per stack up to 100%. Add .75 sec internal cooldown.
: I learned a new word today and it saddens me
Except KYS has never meant "keep yourself sane" in common parlance anywhere ever. There's no reason a person would type that and expect anyone to understand it as having that meaning. It's not Riot's job to teach you to not be a liar. That was your parents' job.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 14
Any concerns that position ranks could potentially deflate a player's highest rank? Personally, I spam mid to gold and then have to switch to support if I want to get to plat. I could see myself realistically getting stuck in gold for mid and stuck in silver as support. Which kind of sucks, agree?
Meddler (NA)
: Good to know. That one seems to be particularly divisive so far, with people either loving it or hating it. Think some of that's how different it is and some of it reflects that, while it's more accurate to certain fencing/sword fighting actions, that's not what everyone's looking for from Fiora.
The contrast is jarring at first, but I think the new animation really "feels" extremely right for Fiora. I grew up having a competitive fencer as a best friend. He wouldn't literally walk that way, but FIora's walk is reminiscent of ways fencers *do* move. I think it's mostly in the posture. Even if it isn't 100% accurate, I think we can all agree that fencers aren't prancing around like gazelles either.
Vlada Cut (EUNE)
: Absence of Mind, Waterwalking and Approach Velocity. Approach velocity seems like something Akali would use for her passive AA's... it's just assasins preffer more dmg than speed, waterwalking seems like a jungle mastery or a roaming sup mastery(still preffer eitzer damage or utulity or sustain) and absence of mind, a very convenient mana sustaining mastery, is in a fucking Precision aka attack speed rune. Once custom stat gains come out believe me you'll most likely to see absence of mind popping off on mages alongside with manaflow band.
>Once custom stat gains come out believe me you'll most likely to see absence of mind popping off on mages alongside with manaflow band. I already splash Precision for that and Alacrity on Lux and Zyra because they spend the first half of the game auto attacking a lot. Speaking of underrated: Alacrity on mages. It's actually ridiculous how much structure damage you get out of that 23% aspd from Alacrity/Precision when you're stacking AP and have a long auto range. The hidden macro power there is actually very high. The tradeoff is isn't even that consequential in comparison to a tier-1 Precision rune (Coup, Cut Down, Last Stand). If you look at the rune recap in post-game, those runes are only adding ~200-500 damage in an entire game. Unless the calculations are not very accurate, the attack speed is going to be worth more in terms of laning, CS, and then structures later in the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=000a000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-12T17:59:25.165+0000) > > If I had to choose between the two, I’d choose over voice chat. That’s all. > > Thankfully this isn’t the actual choice we need to make. That’s valid. Voice chat matters little to me, but I’m just annoyed by this recent balancing direction for tanks. I’ve never played tanks for damage. I play them accepting my damage should be poor and I can help my team better through control, perspective that came from maining tank specs in Star Wars: The Old Republic. So these recent changes to make them into weird fighter/tank hybrids is..disturbing, and is gonna make a class line that was previously fuzzy even worse.
I play mages and supports. Not sure where you're getting this idea that tanks don't do lots of damage already. I often get 1v1'd by shit like... {{champion:79}} {{champion:54}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:19}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFbWLgEB,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-11-12T15:39:21.152+0000) > > Apparently this is the only possible way to reduce his pro power and increase solo power. Like tank mains really want to deal buckets of damage. > > Why, Riot? Why? how about just giving voice com to solo players, so we can coordinate ourselves better to close that gap? but nah, lets completely fuck up the identity of an entire class of champions and turn them into fighters.
By voice comm, you mean listening to the music and Hash commentary of 4 teenagers at once. Hard pass.
Eedat (NA)
: Hijack request denied
If you have any better ideas, I'm all ears. Desperation and plant bugs come with being a Zyra main. Same shit, new season.
: bug
You seem to deal with bugs. Can you possibly investigate this?
Meddler (NA)
: Skins VFX - yep, they're on the way. Blade Queen at least should hit PBE today, not certain on exact timing for Program. Coven and Bloodstone should already be there. Nerfs - Assessment off a bunch of playtesting is that the current changelist is likely slightly power positive. Going into this patch Liss is already in pretty well performing spot, so our room to tone down on nerfs and/or swap them for different ones with less impact isn't great. Will be adding the 10 base damage at rank 1 onwards back onto W though, no need to nerf early laning at least, later in the game's where we're more cautious about overall power. Also, if our assessment ends up being wrong and she ends up meaningfully weaker than before my starting point would be to consider putting power back in where it was removed. Since some of it's not easy to spot on PBE, here's the current full changelist: Nerfs * Removal of old mana passive * W - Damage 70-190 +0.3 (was 70-230+0.4) * R - Ratio to 0.6 (was 0.7) Buffs * New passive - Enemy champions who die near Lissandra become Frozen Thralls. Frozen Thralls hunt out living enemies and slow enemies around them by 25%. After 4s they explode, dealing 120-520 (+0.3 AP) magic damage * MP5/level to 0.8 (was 0.4) * Smoother AAs - animation and actual timing better synched, missile speed to 2200 (was 2000), Base attack speed increased to 0.656 from 0.625. AS ratio for AS scaling is still 0.625 * Q - Mana cost 60-72 (was 75) * W - Mana cost 40 (was 50) * E - Missile speed starts at 1200, decelerates to 640, takes 1.25s to get to end point (1050 range). Makes short casts a bit more useable without adding faster long range initiation or escapes. Previous version for reference is 850 speed throughout, takes 1.25s to get to end point (1050 range) Can understand concern around removal of some ratio and a bit of base damage later in the game, in particular from the angle of 'will Lissandra still be able to burst squishy targets?'. Belief off testing so far is yes. If that stops being the case will move power around so she's still got some burst threat though.
>Going into this patch Liss is already in pretty well performing spot, so our room to tone down on nerfs and/or swap them for different ones with less impact isn't great. Going by numbers for the past month, her WR increases fairly linearly with skill/coordination, going from 45% in bronze to 55% in Challenger. With these changes, is there any possible outcome where those extremes don't end up further apart? The nerfs will disproportionately hit lower ranks, and the passive damage will disproportionately benefit higher ranks. Are you concerned about that possibility? P.S. what's the passive range?
Moody P (NA)
: Lucky timing for me, huh? I don't like these Sej changes. They don't address any of the flaws this rework has put on us and frankly she just feels like a mix of Nunu and Gragas while being worse at what either of them do. Given, this is probably the best you'll do for us and the post below is likely wasted effort, but I spent time writing this out so I'll dump it anyway. At first, I was thinking about how I’d write a big post detailing all my complaints with the rework and what I’d like, but I think that’s been done to death by me and plenty of other Sej players, so I’ll just cut right to the chase; I think the best way to handle Sejuani now is, short of a full revert, compromising on a fusion of her old and new kits to return the role and feel of the old while retaining some of the counterplay and interactivity of the new. My suggestions, going down each of her abilities, revolve mostly around her W, E, and R. I’d like a full revert to the old W’s functionality. I think it flowed better, felt nicer, and I think she was healthier as a champion when her damage was split up into an over-time commited period rather than dumping her entire rotation on you in one big burst like she does right now. I’d be down for slowing down the tick-speed, since that would be relevant to the below changes. On her E: I don’t like the melee mechanic. I don’t find it engaging, interesting to play as or with, and it’s absolutely fucking awful to play against when Sejuani gets to dogpile you with a targeted stun without ever touching you because her ally Irelia smashed Q and auto on your face. Working with the presumption this gets removed.. Keep the current stack mechanic, maybe raise to 5. Instead of a stun, restore the old slow mechanic, BUT make the slow (and the damage) dependent on the number of stacks. Pressing E now detonates the stacks on ALL targets within range and puts the spell on cooldown, rather than the current cooldown-per-target system. I like that old Sejuani emphasized choices; with her, you could either choose to maximize your damage against one person with your W, which often came at expense of CC presence, or you could work your way around the fight to stack up on everyone before slowing them, which lowered your damage contributions. I take this one step further with the stacking system, which adds further counterplay by making Sejuani have to either commit harder or go in at the right time to maximize either. Now, even if Sejuani gets the jump on you, you can still lessen her CC impact by kiting away or around her. For her ultimate.. Remove the single target stun as well as the range empowerment (it feels entirely counter intuitive to her current kit anyway) Keep the storm effect, but have it deal its damage in DoT or something, just for a little more satisfying effect. At the end of the storm, everyone inside is STUNNED. This keeps the counterplay of the current ult (move out) but returns the potential for the satisfying 5 man stun that Sejuani was so appreciated for. I think, honestly, that her current ult is more toxic than the old one; to make a pick with the old ult was a huge opportunity cost of not having that for a teamfight. The new ult simply doesn’t worry about that, because it’s designed almost entirely to make a pick, with the added AOE storm effect merely icing on the cake. It was kind of bullshit, because it kept you from being able to save your picked teammate unless you could survive the follow-up damage and slow that the pop hindered you with. Retaining the more interesting effect of her new ult and making it more central to the ability, which allows for counterplay and strategy on both teams to figure out how to maximize or nullify Sejuani’s ult. I know the good people at r/sejuanimains have come up with their own megapost, and I contributed a small bit to it, but I’d like to put my own individual concerns out there, too. Thank you for reading.
What are your thoughts on something like this? P > New: Frost - Sejuani applies *Frost* to enemies who take magic damage from her abilities, stacking up to 4 times, and empowering certain abilities against enemies affected by *Frost.* Bristle cannot apply *Frost.* Q > No change. W > Sejuani summons an arctic storm around herself for 4 seconds, dealing magic damage to nearby enemies every second. While the storm is active, Sejuani's next basic attack deals bonus magic damage (resets aa timer). E > Active: After a 0.25-seconds delay, Sejuani swings her flail in a cone in the target direction, dealing physical damage to all enemies hit and slowing enemies affected by *Frost.* (Slow increased per stack). > After 0.75 seconds, she lashes out with her flail in a straight line in the same direction, dealing physical damage and consuming all stacks of *Frost* to deal bonus magic damage. R > Sejuani throws a True Ice bola in a line. Upon impact with an enemy champion (or reaching maximum range), the bola shatters, damaging and slowing enemies in a small area and summoning a storm of sleet and thundersnow that lingers for 3 seconds, dealing additional magic damage and inflicting *Snowblind* on enemies affected by *Frost.* > When the bola shatters, enemies affected by *Frost* are slowed by an additional 10% per stack. Enemies at 4 stacks of *Permafrost* are stunned instead. > *Snowblind:* The unit's field of vision is obscured by snow and fades to white, increasing in severity with each additional stack of *Frost* (30/50/70/90% opacity). Does not limit the unit's movement, actions, or vision range. Goal here is to keep the best of old and new while adding something cool. Some explanations: W: The functionality of the old W but with ease of use from the original. Tbh the second W was unnecessarily clunky, and it never made sense to me that the aura aoe was gated behind the aa (or a long-ass delay). E: The biggest change here is that we're basically applying old E cc and current passive % health damage using the cone/line format of the current W. Personally, I feel that her E always lacked impact/satisfaction on active use. In terms of cc, we're splitting the difference and going with a crippling slow rather than a stun. R: Riot always said that Glacial Prison pulled too much of Sej's power budget. The current iteration is engineered to trim some of the power but ends up reading like a series of if/then statements. It just has too many arbitrary conditions and feels very forced. The version has a similar form to the current ult with the notable exception that it only stuns at 4 stacks of *Frost.* In other words, the ult will stun after Sej is in close combat for a minimum of 3 seconds. This lets her keep the dueling power of her current E but gated behind her ult. If she's in the middle of a team fight, she can still get a multi-stun but under very different conditions. But it's also important to keep her ult initiation power, and the snowstorm is how we do that. The snowblind idea is intended to make it harder for a player to see wtf is going on in a team fight by obscuring their screen with snow vfx or making their screen whiter. Imagine a white version of the overlay from Evelynn's passive that fills more of the screen and becomes more opaque as *Frost* stacks up inside the storm. Something like that might preserve some of her ult's identity and functionality without the inevitable balance nightmare of a 1300 range aoe stun.
: Well technically it does make sense for melee champions to have higher base damage and ap ratios than ranged champions seeing as they trade saftey for it. and even when they have higher ratios its not likely they can do anything with it because champs like sejuani are designed to be clunky so they wont be assassinating anyone who doesnt walk into it and melee champions still have to build defense because they cant get away with full damage builds like ranged champions do and sejuani will still have longer cooldowns than lissandra.
>it does make sense for melee champions to have higher base damage and ap ratios than ranged champions Sejuani's shortest and longest range abilities are both longer range than Liss's shortest and longest range abilities. >seeing as they trade saftey for it How much safety is Lissandra getting by having a 725 range on her Q compared to the 600 range Sej has on her W? You think that 125 range is more safety than 40-240+ armor and MR on a passive? >champs like sejuani are designed to be clunky so they wont be assassinating anyone who doesnt walk into it Sej has a dash that's longer range than the dashes on Akali, Leblanc, Rakan, Gragas, Wukong, Irelia, Maokai, and so on. She doesn't need someone to "walk into it." That's some crazy talk right there. >sejuani will still have longer cooldowns than lissandra. Except this is just objectively false. The per-target cooldown on Sej's E is shorter than Liss's W until Liss has W at rank 5 with 30%+ CDR. The cooldown on Sej's Q is 7-1 seconds lower than Liss's E. Their ults have the exact same cooldown. The only exception is that Sej's W does have 9-5 sec CD versus the 6-3 second CD on Liss's Q. Considering that Sej's W deals substantially more damage in virtually all circumstances, I'd say this is fair. >still have to build defense because they cant get away with full damage builds like ranged champions do You have this *completely* backward. Liss has no choice but to build AP, despite having worse AP ratios than Sej. Sej doesn't need to build AP, despite having better ratios, because she gets % max hp damage. At 3 items heading into late game, that % hp damage against a ~2200 hp target from just W/E is worth more damage than Liss gets from 3 AP items in a full EWQR combo. If Liss could just build 3 tank items and deal the same damage, she would just be a better champion, full stop. By your logic, a full build Irelia is at ~3500 hp because she "can't get away with" full damage builds. The reality is that there's no fucking point to a full damage build when you can have 3500 hp and *still* out-burst and out-dps a glass-cannon Katarina.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Vekkna,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=hpAdqhBw,comment-id=000200010002,timestamp=2018-11-07T16:47:40.802+0000) > > How does adding pen to rageblade not contradict what you stated several weeks ago about not adding more pen because items were tuned around current values? > > Any preliminary concern about adding pen to Rageblade with hybrid ADCs like Tristana, Kog, MF, Kai'sa, and Varus? Ditto having pen on hybrids like Udyr, Shyv, Irelia, Jax. Tristana Hybrid? MF Hybrid? Huh?
>MF Hybrid? Magic damage on E. AP ratios on QER (4.35 AP total). MF's lethality build is pretty toxic, and it strikes me as the kind of thing that's only allowed to persist because it has very clear and exploitable trade-offs compared to a crit build. The burst is tolerable because the build has low dps and sustain. The new Rageblade completely negates that weakness if you go Dusk/Ghost > Dirk and rank Q early. Then go Rage + BotRK as you max W. You end up with fully lane bully power, then transition into on-hit dps in mid game. And they synergize with one another because the pen on Rage increases the relevance of your early lethality buys. Then you get BotRK's % health damage in a high-pen build and a 100% on-demand aspd steroid to quick-stack Rage. Basically what I'm saying is that you can replace Cleaver + RFC in MF's current build with Rageblade and BotRK. Seems likely to totally negate the weaknesses of the lethality build, which are low dps, poor structure damage, and no lifesteal. >Tristana Hybrid? Literally all of her ability damage and ratios are magic/AP aside from E active bomb explosion. Here the concern is more about the impact of 15% magic pen and incidental AP in an ability combo with ~800 base magic damage and a 2.6 AP ratio. Just looking at some napkin math, Rageblade crushes RFC as second item and BotRK + Rageblade crushes RFC + IE in bursting squishies and dpsing hp-stackers. Also sort of curious to see how it could end up affecting Akali. Ignoring the attack speed and on-hit entirely, Rageblade looks competitive with Morello on Akali. Wouldn't surprise me to see Titanic > Rageblade be a thing.
Maltuser (EUW)
: then you point your happy little eyes toward the pajama skins. {{sticker:sg-ahri-1}}
Pika Fox (NA)
: I still fail to see the issue. Shes a CC orientated control mage, so she has lower access to straight damage to begin with, and youre assuming teamfights are the entire game. If you want to look where most of her power budget is, its in her R.
>Shes a CC orientated control mage, so she has lower access to straight damage to begin with {{champion:143}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:45}} {{champion:134}} {{champion:163}} Every one of these mages has more damage than Lissandra, as much or more AOE, and as much or more control than Lissandra. Several of them have targeted burst damage and/or targeted cc. Malz and Fiddles don't even have the .5 second cc delay that Liss has on her ult. Literally all of them are stronger duelists than Liss. >youre assuming teamfights are the entire game. Please quote where I said anything like that at all. After the W/R nerfs, Liss will be one of the worst mages in the game outside of team fighting. Low damage, short range, long cooldowns, mana-hungry with no sustain, the slowest MS in the game, countered by Merc Treads, and totally gank/dive reliant for lane impact. My entire gripe with the W/R nerfs is that they nerf Liss in *every* part of *every* game, but the buff from passive only applies to fights with multiple enemies where one dies and the others can be cc'd long enough for passive to explode. >If you want to look where most of her power budget is, its in her R. If you compare her ult to other abilities with similar or identical effects to *either* the self-cast or enemy-cast, it starts to look like Liss is charged for both effects despite only being able to use one at a time. Malzahar's enemy cast is significantly stronger than Liss's enemy-cast, and Vlad's puddle is a better version of Liss's self-cast as a basic ability. So yeah, she pays a super high tax for the targeted stun despite the fact that you're self-casting ult most of the time. She also pays a super high tax for the "blink" on E for no other reason than it being a blink. If it was an untargetable or unstoppable dash, it would cost less. And this is what makes Lissandra kind of a stupid design in some ways. Yeah, her EWR combo is strong, but you can do it better by picking Malphite and hitting R/E with a Zhonya's. Faster combo, no telegraph, more damage, better scaling, better cc, immune to tenacity, tankier, faster MS, more reliable slows, and so on. The flexibility is what gives her value in high elo, but the tax is why she's always so outclassed in solo. The worst possible thing RIot could have done was exactly what they did. They shifted general power to a passive that is very strong in coordinated play but ranges from unreliable to useless in solo play.
: I like the skinlines, but I'm not a fan of the sexualization I don't think they should change them, but it's just typical I guess
>I'm not a fan of the sexualization You don't think modesty policing is a form of sexualization? I like that they used the chromas to make some skimpier and some more covered. But I'm a free-the-nipple, Third Wave type, and my feminist icons are Elvira and Madonna. I don't care if gamer dudes get a chub from looking at e-tits as long as there are a bunch of talented women earning equal pay for creating those e-tits. Riot's art department is full of those women. I support them by buying their amazing work product and not being scandalized by bare collarbones. =P
: What is it with every one of Lissandra's skins, except Bloodstone, being fucking amazing. Like while I slightly prefer Blade Queen over Program, they are both great skins. Now we get this gorgeous skin. Whoever is the idea guy for Lissandra skins needs a raise, unless he did Bloodstone too. Then he needs to be shamed before the raise. ######If you can't tell I really don't like her release skin.
Why do you hate Bloodstone? It's not my favorite of hers, but I like the hair, vibrant ember particles, and Q sfx. But yeah, Lissandra has great skins overall, and I don't get bored with rotating through them. I also feel that they have aged quite well compared to most. Bloodstone Liss was released ~6 months after Wildfire Zyra, for example, but the quality difference is night and day.
: I really don't see what's so special about these skins. They look like elite armour from an Asian mmorpg?
If you're right, that would explain why they appeal to me. Aesthetics is one of the main reasons I play Korean MMOs. (Innovative combat is the other.)
Alzon (NA)
: Max W second despite the damage nerf, build CDR. I like what Riot’s doing here as it requires her to put gold into utility to get full value out of her kit, not just minmaxing like the pros do.
We'll have to wait and see what the range is on passive. Earlier iterations only summoned a thrall on takedowns, but this version is any enemy that dies "near Lissandra." If she has to be, like, in W range to get a proc, then my point still stands and is actually a worse case than the takedown version. If the passive range is extremely long, like 2000 units, then your point is completely correct. If your team gets a pick, you could absolutely dive the rest of the team and lock them down for the passive explosion. But it's just not at all likely that Liss would be ~600-700 range of that pick without using her cc to secure the pick. So a longer range on passive is super relevant here because of how Liss positions to dive from backline to backline or from a flank.
Pika Fox (NA)
: So? Youll use your abilities more than 1x before someone dies.
Ok, so let's assume you go EWQRQ balls deep into the enemy team, and you are able to hit with a max rank E (not that reliable due to travel speed and telegraph). In that case you're doing a *whopping* 1160 base damage. Now your passive proc is only 31% of your total base damage rather than 35% of your total base damage. Literally changes nothing about my point, which is the passive leeching too much power budget. Just because I'm curious, what is the basis for your Lissandra opinions? Looks like you played her once in 2016 and died 10 times. That game should have taught you that you don't have a lot of time to free-cast Qs when you're in the middle of 3-5 enemies and have to go into stasis before you're cc'd to death.
Die4U (NA)
: its funny, but liss's base damage isnt the best because her Q is rather spammable, you are going to get multiple uses of it compared to any of sejuani's kit
Ok, Liss gets an extra Q. Sej gets *25% max hp* damage. Even if you add in Liss's passive procs - assuming any actually land - Sej is doing more damage until Liss gets multiple passives on multiple enemies. You can also compare Liss side-by-side with Gragas since they have similar roles in terms of super high disruption and being diver mages. Gragas again has higher base damage and higher AP ratios but with similar cc and far stronger poke, sustain, and zoning power.
Alzon (NA)
: You’re meant to CC opponents in place for the passive to hit them. Also shifts some of her power into countering immobile champions specifically.
Explain how that's supposed to happen, exactly. She has to get takedowns first, which means putting her abilities on cooldown. Is she supposed to get in 700 range to hit Qs, not die, and then use EWR to start dealing real damage after her team has already done the work? Sounds like pre-rework Kat's teamfight style.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Does lissandra? The answer is no.
Excuse me. *Base* damage. On PBE, Lissandra's max rank EWQR is 970 base damage. *One* passive proc is 520 base damage.
Piruja (NA)
: Make Lissandra new passive last longer
I think they need to cut the explosion damage by at least 50% and then divide the rest over time as an aura dot. At least then it won't be awful for everyone outside of LCK.
: So does Liss pretty much not have a passive until teamfights start?
> [{quoted}](name=Fear the Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IGwAEaTt,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-11-07T17:23:09.075+0000) > > So does Liss pretty much not have a passive until teamfights ~~start~~ **end**? Fixed that for you.
Pika Fox (NA)
: I mean, kog doesnt have a passive til he dies.
Does Kog have literally 1/3 of his entire kit's damage loaded into his passive?
: I like the idea but am not a fan of the execution of the Camille skin. Change the stupid ram headpiece and give her white hair, and I would love it. But as it stands I won't buy that.
Camilles chromas are badass tho!
: I'm fucking praying that Zyra gets a new skin this upcoming season. While I've already fallen in love with Coven, and think it would look lovely on her, Riot tends to wait anywhere from 6 months to 2 years before releasing new skins for a skin line. I'd love to see her get a skin where she looks more human/humanoid, to help even out her skin diversity, since all her skins so far have focused more on the monster/abomination aspect of her theme. Skins should be taken as an opportunity to reinvent a champion in an alternate universe, not just place the champion in an alternate universe and give them a costume. Thomas Randby, AKA Riot Hylia, has come up with two great designs for Zyra, he created over 3 years ago, that I really wish Riot would use. That's the link to his art station, he does incredible work, and I really think Riot underutilizes him.
Yeah, I have to consciously refrain from flirting with him on twitter. >I'd love to see her get a skin where she looks more human/humanoid, to help even out her skin diversity, since all her skins so far have focused more on the monster/abomination aspect of her theme. Yeah, this is a big reason I hoped to get chromas for Dragon Sorc that used a range of human flesh colors.
Moody P (NA)
: Sejuani - Please, god, not like this
Fun fact: this gives Sejuani higher base damage and AP ratios than Lissandra. Makes sense.
: I'm just spitballing here, but they probably try to help champions that are exciting to watch but not meta-defining like Azir or Kalista. At the same time, they try not to overbuff them to the point of making them pick/ban in soloqueue.
Thought about that, but then I remembered the season 6 plot twist/watercooler moment of the clutch MF support counterpick to Zyra support. They didn't buff up Zyra to add diversity in the Ardent meta of season 7. Then they nerfed her out of pro play *entirely* for all of season 8, despite the utter drudgery of Braum/Ali/Thresh dominating support picks and having no real counter. And her play rate peaked at like 5% in solo queue. So it's clearly a deliberate choice to pick some champs for Worlds and not others. Based on that example, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with interesting viewing, spicing up an incredibly bland role, or impact to solo queue. Must be something else or some other combination of factors.
: Lissandra w and r nerfs
These nerfs just really don't make sense. I thought she was getting a damage passive specifically because she already has low damage and the worst poke of any ranged AP in the game (outside of lane). Those weaknesses are just as bad or worse, on top of being resource-gated in lane and even easier to bully by the AD mids she's hypothetically intended to counter. Honestly, it's hard to read these changes as anything other than a push towards top and support. At max level her EWQR will deal 970 + 2.2 AP. For context on how trash that is, Zoe's QERQ - without W or passive - deals 990 + 2.3 AP. Oh, and by level 7 that entire combo's cooldown is shorter than LIss's cooldowns on *either* E or W, nevermind R. But yeah, while EWQR is dealing 970 base damage, one passive hit deals another 520 base damage. One passive increases Lissandra's total base damage by nearly **54%** and after one hit, the passive is worth a full 35% of her base damage in a team fight. That's the kind of thing that pushed Brand almost completely out of mid lane. If *that much* of your power budget is spent on base damage and cc, you end up as either a tanky engage support or a toxic top laner. There isn't really a precedent for that *not* happening, is there?
wildfox9T (EUW)
: her ult + W screw any mobile champ her passive screw any immobile champ basically now it doesn't matter who you are one part of her kit is going to destroy you it could make her feel too strong when she's strong,but at least she's more easy to balance because it makes her a less situational pick,her identity as "press R one the fed one and win the fight" wasn't fun to play against at all anyway the damage nerfs arent as big as they look it's 50 damage when the W is maxed (isn't it the last ability that you max? if yes for the whole early/mid game it's only 10 damage) and 10% AP scalings on her W and R 10% on her R is something but it's not insane,while her W isn't her main damage source so it won't impact her that much,especially when she can spam her Q more (which have an enough low CD to be used multiple times in a combo) she lost some burst but she's way better in teamfight,considering how oppressive she is against an isolated target/1vs1 it's a fair change,not sure if she's going to be stronger or weaker but personally i like it
>basically now it doesn't matter who you are one part of her kit is going to destroy you One part of her kit will cc you. "Destroy" implies having a combo with enough damage to burst an ADC before 3 items. >anyway the damage nerfs arent as big as they look Didn't we just go through a huge boards cycle of posts about how 3 AD, 5MS, and -10 damage to Distortion were, in fact, meaningful and/or significant nerfs to Graves, Irelia, and Leblanc? Since you're asking what order W is maxxed, I feel safe in assuming that you don't really know enough about Liss to say that -10-50 base + .2 AP is not a big nerf. It's actually huge. >she lost some burst but she's way better in teamfight She's *hypothetically* better in an *extended* team fight. She's strictly worse - by a significant margin - in every other situation from level 2-18. You also have to consider that her passive, though obviously strong, requires a kill, a 4 second delay, and an enemy that's in range. When you add all of that up, you get a Sejuani/Galio situation where tight coordination makes Lissandra an S-tier teamfighter in esports and dogshit in solo queue.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: I've avoided cutting damage from the E because, as you point out, it's often not very relevant when used for entering or exiting a fight. Taking damage from it doesn't buy much ability to put power elsewhere as a result, but does meaningfully reduce the subset of times where you can optimize the E around hitting enemies with it. E speed change is still in, though it's not something likely to get datamined so easily while on the PBE. AA changes are also in, not sure if those have been picked up on much yet (better animation alignment, slight faster missile speed, bit of extra starting attack speed).
Can you provide context for the Lissandra nerfs to W/R on PBE? I get that her new passive has the potential for a lot of added power, but the W/R nerfs are a massive hit to her already-lackluster damage in duels and small skirmishes. On paper I worry that she'll have S-tier power locked behind team coordination like Sej/Ryze/Galio. If you're knocking 10-50 + .2 AP damage off her combo from levels 6-18, what do you predict will happen to her in solo queue?
Meddler (NA)
: The two are related, though not in the ways you might think. Some of the team working on the new skin actually helped out with some of the art for the new passive for the other skins as well. We weren't on track to ship the passive change for 8.23 otherwise, so really grateful they jumped in even though it's not their area of responsibility and they've got a lot of other work to do too.
I know it's not your area, but you guys should be really proud of that Coven Liss skin and the theme overall. Knocked it out of the fucking park.
Meddler (NA)
: We've been really happy with the pro meta recently, so aiming to stay fairly similar. If the preseason changes end up shifting things dramatically we'll do some follow up work on them most likely. In terms of safe versus aggressive play we're not trying to remove safe/scaling play from pro, but don't want it to be as dominant as it has been for a long time.
Question about pro balance: Before World's this year, you explained a set of buffs (Pyke, Darius, Kha) as a diversity push for a group of champs that sort of organically ended up on the edge of viability. That makes sense. But if you look at Lee, those sorts of buffs are very much inorganic an clearly timed to guarantee his spot in esports events. Like, you can't really deny that there are certain champs that are consistently balanced *into* pro/World's (Lee, Gragas) and others that are balanced *out* of pro/World's (Nidalee, Zyra). When it comes to artificial selection for pro play, how do you decide which champs will be included or excluded?
Meddler (NA)
: Yeah, we've just started taking a look at Sejuani. That's part of a look at tanks who've been challenges to balance for organized and regular play. Will get some more thoughts on that into Friday's post. Galio and Ornn are the other two we're also testing stuff for.
After the issues that arose with reworks on... {{champion:113}} {{champion:3}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:13}} you guys have a plan to prevent more designs/reworks from falling into this trap where pro balance handicaps the champ everywhere else?
Show more


Level 136 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion