: Thank You Riot For ABSOLUTELY Nothing...
I heard the Sol mains community was cautiously optimistic about the changes? I play him and have him at m7 (not nearly as committed to him as you are, though! Cho'Gath is my one true love). Also, Mordekaiser mains had a decent amount of input on his update. Malicious Metal was literally flown in to Riot HQ to test him and provide feedback. Rather than never giving an explanation for these changes, Rioters are on record saying that Sol has a very low playrate because he's unapproachable and difficult to understand, whilst often being too powerful in the hands of his mains. I think they're trying to bring him to a place where there is slightly less disparity between his best and worst performances, whilst windowing his power so that he is easier to balance but his stars feel like they still pack a punch. What's so wrong about the changes in your eyes, if I may ask?
Ahris (NA)
: Mordekaiser imo has no counters. Maybe im missing someone.(maybe darius? But ban him and not much problem. So as long as you can ban, wont the counter picks no longer rlly exist?)
Mordekaiser doesn't have fun vs champs like Darius and Singed who have higher sustained damage than him and the ability to force trades to start/end. He really needs to get liandries/Rylais to start having truly painful trades and before that his lane is profoundly mediocre. Cho'Gath is also a terrible matchup for him. Grab a triple dorans, rush liandries, poke through wave with E and use your W/Q to deny him passive procs and end trades. Unless he manages to chase you halfway down the lane with his passive burning you he will not be able to outtrade. You can use W silence to deny him the last-second shield and finish him off with R.
: Picking your champ before your opponent in toplane is just a death sentence for your laning phase
The counterpick "meta" is NO STRONGER than it was before the counterplay patch. Now it just applies to everybody instead of tanks and some fighters. Now the Darius, Riven, Aatrox, etc. players get to play by the same rules they force everybody else to play by instead of getting by on a strong lane phase and potent generalist power that can't really be properly countered. As somebody who enjoys tanks and has been playing Cho since well before he was "meta" (aka when he was pretty much a trash pick toplane) this has been how the lane works for ages. Lane bullies just don't get a free pass into a strong lategame anymore. Boo hoo.
Reav3 (NA)
: Fiddle and Volibear are still planned for next year. We have 3 New Champions currently in production and all ahead of both Voli and Fiddle.
Will Fiddlebear/Volisticks be the only two VGUs happening in 2020? Or is there a chance that there will be another to follow?
: Ah it's my favorite Cho'Gath player on the boards, back at it with another enticing discussion. I've gotta say your points are solid and I would love to see them implemented as to not make the game feel stagnant and unfun in the "pay to win" kind of way. Side note: Bring back rotating game modes!
Thank you :) {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
: Hi Void - thanks for taking the time to write this up! It's a really thoughtful post and I loved reading through it. I'm the Product Lead on Eternals, and I wanted to address some of the points brought up in this thread, because we talked about all of these points at length during development: * We discussed tying this into Mastery a bunch, but ultimately landed on making Eternals adjacent to the system because Mastery doesn't have any kind of RP value attached to it. It's a system that was built to be evergreen once for all champions ever, and Eternals has a roadmap that extends beyond the first set we release. We split the difference with Mastery Emote Upgrades (fun fact: we actually were unsure about this idea early in development, but players in our early playtests suggested it consistently as something they wanted). * Regarding the difficulty of certain Eternals, we want to find a happy balance that leans more towards "represents skillful play" than "ridiculously difficult". Some of the original Eternals we designed were almost never incrementing in our playtests, which resulted in players feeling like the system either wasn't working or getting very little satisfaction from the progression. We DO want to make tricky Eternals, but they need to be something that the player mostly has control over, like iiGazeii's suggestion of Jhin grenades hit after killing 3 units prior. * Regarding price, we're taking steps on this. You'll hear more soon. * For rewards from Eternals, I'd love to open up this discussion to the group: **What rewards for rekindling sets would you think would be satisfying?** BEFORE YOU ANSWER, I'm afraid I have to put a few limitations on you to make sure we don't annihilate scope / make Eternals feel good by tacking on another content type as a reward. Try to think of something that feels self-contained, and usable on the champion regardless of the skin they choose. That means no skins, no chromas. Other than that, hit me. Again, thanks for this thread. It's been really fun to read through this. I'm excited to share updates with you all soon. Cheers, Adriaan
Hello, Thank you for dropping in! **For the mastery emotes: ** -I suppose I understand where you're coming from, especially if there is the intention of expanding upon Eternals in the future. Perhaps, instead of changing the mastery emote fully, the flames+the color of the gem in your emote change color based on the Eternals you have rekindled? It would feel a little better, in my opinion, than the current floating-above-the-emote details. Unsure about how much behind the scenes work this would entail though :( -I do hope you guys consider expanding the mastery system at some point! Features that have been coming to the new client have opened up so many opportunities for progression and I've pretty much maxed out all my favourite champions already. ------ **For Difficult Challenges** -Lots of people are already providing great examples here, so I'll leave them to it. -I will, however, speak for Cho'Gath. I would love to see stuff like this (Busty Demoness had the right idea with naming them. It's fun): * **Dine and Dash:** steal Epic Monsters with _ Feast_ , * **Screamin' To a Halt:** interrupt enemy channels/combos with _Feral Scream_, * **Stepped on a Nail:** Hit multiple enemy champions with a single cast of _Rupture_. * **Tyrannosaurus Flex:** Reach 15 stacks of _Feast_ in a single match. Cho'Gath's challenges should be accessible to both tank and AP Cho'Gath players. He's a bit of a challenge to make them for since he's got very consistent effectiveness in most situations, with only a small gap between his highs and lows. -Perhaps at some point we get an option for more ridiculously difficult challenges, with rewards we can earn to show them off. I miss the old days on my Xbox 360, grabbing weird achievements in Halo and L4D and I'd be very pleased to get some of that same feeling in League! ----- **For Rewards** I'm going to just spitball a handful of them here (I've taken a quick glance at some of the other comments on the thread and will try to avoid repeating them) -I think a Homeguard trail like the one that comes with the Rainbow Poro icon could be really cool! Leave a trail of flames behind you to match your burning mastery emote, or to match the color of the Eternal you have ignited. -In a similar vein to the above, have your taunt emote be accompanied by a burst of the same flames! - Maybe a specialized hextech chest containing content related to your champion? I know HoTS has a similar system where leveling up your hero earns a chest guaranteed to grant you content related to that hero. (Although their hero-associated content is a bit more robust than what is available in League, so I'm unsure of how well this would carry over!) -Long-Term: An announcer related to the Eternal you have rekindled! You have pleased your Eternal, and now it presides over your matches. If Eternals are going to be expanded over time, this would be a super cool addition in the years to come. -Many champions still don't have icons related to them and could benefit from having some bordered icon depicting them (kinda like the special Icons that came with the chromas for the Project Reckoning event). A non-bordered version could also be made available for RP in the store. --------- Thank you for coming and inviting feedback, and thank you very much for addressing the points I brought up!
: So, you mentioned something about making quests/challenges for each champion something innovative, something risky or pertaining to a big play. That's actually a bad idea and one Riot has said they didn't want to do when first creating missions. Sometimes there's just the perfect situation to get something like that, while others it is damn near impossible depending on what they are. And those things can definitely cause people to grief and troll. For example, what if one challenge for Leona is to hit all 5 enemies with her ult? Would it actually be fun to try and get? Or would it be reliant extremely on luck and your opponents just being extremely bad? For the record, Paladins, another game I play, used to have challenges like that, such as hitting every member with one ult or killing with a very weak move made for knockback but only using the damage, not knocking them off the ledge. They were extremely unfun and insanely hard to complete, to the point where it was hard to do them even in bot matches with a stack of 5. Now the challenges are more along the lines of "Deal X damage with ability" or "Ult Y times" or "Heal Z amount in a match with this character." And while they aren't super unique or interesting, players like them a lot more because they're feasible to complete.
You make a fair point. I think there are ways to make champion-specific challenges that avoid the "hit everybody with your move" issue (although for some champions I think it's a pretty unique goal and would be a great source of bragging rights as a challenge on its own). I personally would appreciate the added challenge for doing something big and specific, provided it was purely for bragging rights. I think it would be a matter of how you present it to the playerbase. People should want to keep their eyes open for big play opportunities but not feel like they're losing out by not getting them every match. But the simpler ones you bring up are also good and can relate to making big plays without being overly reliant on specific circumstance. imagine quests for doing stuff that is excellent in, say, a teamfight. Like if Leona had one for inflicting X seconds of crowd control in a teamfight, or a dps champion had one for dealing a certain amount of damage in a fight, or with one cast of a spell.
: Level 2 ganks ruin top lane
It's not the level 2 ganks that make the lane a pain in the ass. It's that a jungler can gank top, fail the gank, retain an exp lead on you, and hang out around top for sometimes 2-3 minutes constantly threatening to gank again. And in a lane that's pretty much a 1v1 snowball fest, even if you survive every gank thrown at you (unlikely, since eventually they will just dive you and if they kill you they will take 2-4 turret plates), you fall so far behind that you're playing on the back foot for the rest of the lane. You lose all lane priority unless your jungler intervenes. Surviving one gank should be expected of you. Ward your lane. But junglers should take a very meaningful hit if they try and fail to gank the same lane 3+ times. Because the laner they're ganking against is taking hits for that despite playing properly and surviving.
Midg3t (EUNE)
: One thing you didnt mention here but it bothers me is the pricing. Atm it's 860 RP. Idk about NA, but here in EU if I wanted to buy Eternals I would have to buy a 10 euro in RP, which is 1380 RP. That alone is, imo, too much just for 3 stat-trackers.If I wanted to buy them I would have 520 RP leftover. What can I buy with it? Emotes? I already got a lot of them through missions, events and chests. Ward skins? Same as emotes. Keys/chests? Prolly the best option but I still have a chance to get trash I dont want from it, so it could be potentially cost-inefficient. Skins? Is there any skin I could get from that price that looks even remotely good? Event orbs? Same as chests. And the newest skins are usually 1350 RP. So at that point whats better to buy, 3 stat-trackers or a brand new skin?
For me it's a $10 CAD investment which is a big part of why I'm not willing to purchase them at all in their current state. I just tried to think of ways to make it worth the price tag, because the content right now is very flawed, rather than asking for the price to go down. It feels bad as a part of the mastery system which is a system I am fond of. (also usually I hold on to that extra RP because it lets me spend less money when a skin I like comes on sale!)
: i'd rather have nexus blitz,urf,new game modes. new items for league or the return of old ones. new items for ap bruisers(melee). changes to ranged favoritism. make klepto melee only. new tank items.tanks don't have any big ticket item equivalent to say deathcap for mages or infinity edge for adcs or duskblade for ad assassins;tanks have also long been over-due for a class update;bruisers/juggernauts got theirs divers were supposed to get a class update but nothing seems to have happened. make armor and magic pen less efficient. if tank update ever comes this won't be needed as much; but this will probably still end up needing to be changed. reduce damage creep.
No problem with wanting those things, but they are all gameplay content (especially the balancing bits) and probably fall under a different team than Eternals does. I'd love items for AP bruisers (I main Cho'Gath, damnit!) I'd love tanks to be made to feel better. But those are wholly separate things that should be done by wholly separate people. I'd just like Eternals not to feel so bad as the supposed next step in mastery progression.
DUDE BRO (NA)
: Just want to tack my thoughts on here as well. **The big thing that kills Eternals:** - They were designed to reward personal progress, like fitness apps. However **this is impossible in LoL**. In fitness you can always push yourself. Run that extra distance, increase the weights, do one more triple backflip. In LoL, you'll get a lucky game where you get ultra-fed, end the game with 35 kills, and that's it. You'll never achieve that again, and your Eternal tracking just ends. There's no way to push yourself and get just 1 more kill higher, or just a bit more damage than that last time. This game was your peak and you're unlikely to reach it again. So the entire concept of personal goals doesn't work, it's just, can you get lucky enough to get extremely fed, more fed than that one time 2 months ago? **An idea to fix some of them:** - Track incredibly hard goals, not simple ones. I wouldn't care to see or show off a yasuo who got 31 kills in a game once. However, if a yasuo flashed that he's gotten 27 *pentakills* total with yasuo, that's impressive. Rather than the highest amount you've achieved in 1 game or something, they should show the total amount of very difficult goals you've done. The same feeling for getting that M7. You should be like, "YES! I've finally gotten an S+", and then be able to show you've gotten an S+ 67 times, or a pentakill, etc. Not just, "Oh I only got 27 kills this game, not as good as that time I got 31".
Yup. I don't agree with the "personal bests" philosophy. I certainly think getting a personal best merits a little something, but having it as the main sell leaves the product lacking. It's why I advocate for a quest/milestone based system, with long-term goals that do eventually have a conclusion (unless they get looped with some BE rewards). Because while you cannot beat that 35 kills in one game, if you get a long-term quest that is to get 2000 kills on your champion, you can make measurable progress every game without feeling like you've peaked forever.
PzyXo (EUW)
: Riot is going crazy now
Do you know what the Neeko changes are? I've seen posts covering the Aurelion Sol and Kayle ones but this is the first I've heard about Neeko getting looked at. Also for my money the most concerning buffs are to Lucian and Ryze. They are super terrifying in the right hands and can be quite the nuisance to lane against. i have my biases though, given my champion pool those two are extra problematic for me. I don't know what's going on for Kalista but she risks skewing high elo play heavily depending on what it is (I trust their judgement here and hope it does make her more satisfying to play, she's one of my handful of Mastery 7 champs and I'd love to enjoy her again!)
Bazerka (NA)
: I really like this analysis! Thank you for your thoughts! fwiw this is the type of dialogue that initiates change, not saying change is guaranteed I'm not on the Eternals team, but well thought out arguments on things is a great way to open dialogue about something like this :D. Mad props! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
I gotta say, seeing you come on the boards and being active/replying to threads today (especially the one about Eternals) prompted me to decide to get my thoughts in order, since I knew at least for the time being the boards were being looked at so there was a chance I could be seen through the tide of very angry posts. So thank you for helping break the silence on the boards! I didn't expect to get a Red comment on it. I'm very happy to see you here! I hope you have a lovely evening.
  Rioter Comments
Reav3 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=N1C Jeddy017,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=u95tmZGx,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-08-15T18:26:38.750+0000) > > By non-humanoid, do you mean something that is more than just a cat? yes
Is it two cats? --- Or the moth voidborn that everyone wants but doesn't know it yet??
: Great summary! I just have a few small nitpicks. > Rek’Sai is, like Vel’Koz, absolutely bloody huge, being bigger than a house. That's exaggeration. She has been described as twice the size of the protagonist of her color story, but that's far from the size of a house. > What exactly this thing is isn’t explored further in the story, but she arranges it in to a pattern and then sets it between burrows, indicating it’s either important to the birthing of Xer’Sai or potentially Rek’Sai creating a rift of some kind. I think it's made quite clear that Rek'Sai is creating a Void rift, as the protagonist of her story is able to sense the Void through the pattern. > Kassadin’s most recent story appearance is in “Whom Does the Desert Know?” where he directly fights against Voidborn in the cavernous depths below Shurima. Not much happens in the story It's easy to miss, but this story is crucial for the fight against the Void since it reveals another way to fight the expanding Void caverns than just starving them. Kassadin discovered that the caverns themselves have hearts that can be destroyed and is one of very few people alive with that knowledge, as confirmed by Scathlocke[ here](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/rv0QUomN-new-kassadin-story?comment=00030000). Yet he isn't intent on sharing this knowledge, even though this information is incredibly significant.
Rek'Sai is described as twice the** height ** of the character in her story. Her posture is low to the ground. But we also hear her tail is "many times the size of an alligator." A quick google search says the average size of an american alligator is 4m. Several implies at least 4x that (since otherwise we'd have a couple or a few used as the descriptor) which puts her tail alone at a minimum of 16m in length. Her body itself is probably the same length again, putting her at an impressive 32m long at a minimum. So house-sized doesn't seem like too much of an exaggeration. For the second point, yeah it seems like a Void rift I agree. But since that is not *explicitly* stated, I can see why Sharjo left it ambiguous. For the Kassadin story, good catch on the big Void hearts in the caverns.
Sharjo (EUW)
: TL;DR Lore: The Void
Bless your beautiful soul
: Well done. Very interesting post and theories indeed
: > [{quoted}](name=Void Kaiju,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=eFP3Fho7,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-08T20:09:15.529+0000) > > **Now**: Voidborn as a species are pretty cool. Most of them are _cool_... You know, because they are frozen! Get it? Frozen! Like the Watchers! {{champion:127}} Okay, now i leave.
I can't believe you'd do me like this on my own thread
: another great post from our resident Void Scholar
{{sticker:galio-happy}} <3
: Kayn and Rhaast should pull a We Are Venom
B-but if they both win, how will the greatest line in league ever be spoken?? "IT'S ALL RHAAST NOW!!" More seriously, given how unapologetically evil Rhaast is I'm not certain he is even capable of coexisting with Kayn. They have no need for symbiosis. I think the best possible outcome is Kayn manages to mostly overwhelm him but we get to keep Rhaast awake and talking. They get to keep their bond, Kayn gets to progress his story, and we don't have Rhaast riding off into the sunset intent on killing it.
Rioter Comments
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=50CaliberHecate,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sF52ovFt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-02T00:34:18.418+0000) > > Agreed. It'll totally work well, along with how Vayne's visor does hers! Difference is... Vayne's skin is a LEGENDARY. Warwick's is not.
Tbf, her legendary ADDED an overlay, whilst Warwick already has an overlay on his W ingame. It would be more of a particle update than an addition in this case, which fits for most modern skins below legendary.
: A actual look at what can be done to make Treeline draw in more players
your post is kinda saying they should be updating the map as new champions come out if they don't fit in TT which is like... a huge amount of work for a gamemode that barely pulls in 1% of the population in most regions. What you suggest takes a boatload of work from art and animation teams and requires a complete overhaul of the map. That's completely not a justifiable amount of effort to put in, unfortunately.
: > [{quoted}](name=Void Kaiju,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=qYcmzkom,comment-id=0021,timestamp=2019-08-01T14:55:58.018+0000) > > OP doesn't have a single match on their match history. They aren't even playing the game right now on this account. I suspect, STRONGLY, that if we were to see their main account (if this isn't it) we would be hard-pressed to find matches on TT which they so zealously defend. You want variety? Perhaps actually playing the game would be a good start. Based on what I'm seeing, they aren't losing a player. They've already lost you so your opinion here doesn't matter anyways. Just gonna point out that this isn't my main account, I do play TT every once in a while and only used this one because I felt like mentioning Morrowind at the end for no reason since I love that game. Now I got better things to do than answer a wall of text with another wall of text when everything I could want to say has already been mentioned in the thread earlier. Also saying that NB was promoted as much as TFT was is being straight up delusional.
You have a comment on this post criticizing somebody for only addressing one of your points. And now you have one saying you refuse to respond to a comment which tries to look at all of them. Fun guy.
: I've never seen a company more dishonest and disconnected from their playerbase than Riot
And people wonder why Riot doesn't take the boards seriously. The title is overblown and frankly foolish. You would need to have literally zero understanding of the game industry to think riot is the worst of the worst in game companies. They go well above and beyond the call of duty in a lot of ways. They have no obligation to share ANY information with you, believe it or not. They could always ghost the community like bethesda has for Anthem. Would probably make their lives easier. OP doesn't have a single match on their match history. They aren't even playing the game right now on this account. I suspect, STRONGLY, that if we were to see their main account (if this isn't it) we would be hard-pressed to find matches on TT which they so zealously defend. You want variety? Perhaps actually playing the game would be a good start. Based on what I'm seeing, they aren't losing a player. They've already lost you so your opinion here doesn't matter anyways. This seems to me like a classic upvote bait thread intended to latch on to the outrage about the loss of a mode the vast majority of people here didn't play more than 10 times in the past 3 years. ------------ But for the sake of conversation, let's break down the post despite that. > You shoved TFT down our throats and hyped it like there is no tomorrow, then act like keeping it permanent was an unexpected event. Even if it would have utterly failed, you would've kept it anyways, you never introduced it just to test the waters like you did with NB, you put it live for good from the very beginning. You never gave NB that kind of chance or treatment, even though from what I've personally seen, the feedback for it was overall better than for TFT even if apparently the popularity didn't follow, the ratio was there. TFT is massively popular. Massively. Don't act like it was just 100% going to stay. We have plenty of evidence that they have no problem pulling gamemodes when they fail. TFT did not fail. It's got a healthy streaming community and a consistent playerbase in a way that Twisted Treeline NEVER EVER had. They gave Nexus Blitz the exact same kind of treatment. They hyped it, the did balance changes for it and bugfixes for it during its run. It didn't pull the numbers they wanted as a company which needs to make a profit so they didn't make it a permanent facet of the game. Don't mistake the boards or your friend group liking Nexus Blitz as some evidence for its popularity. For most people it was a fun distraction at best, not something they were interested in doing for a long time. --- > The only reason TT has been deserted is because you didn't care for it. For one, I've always wanted to play TT, but I just didn't because I know they is absolutely 0 balance. You never gave it a chance, either. And neither did you toward Dominion. You gave TFT more love in a week than you have TT in years. You have no casual friendly mode where you can actually pick your champion. TT didn't attract players even when Riot updated it in 2012. They stated that the playerbase didn't go up for that mode. They sunk loads of resources into it with zero payoff. Of course they aren't going to suddenly start bending over backwards for it. It was deserted even when they did care for it. I actually play TT from time to time, and I can tell you that unless you play the hell out of it and get decent MMR you aren't going to be encountering much in terms of funnel strats. in maybe 40 matches of it over the last 2ish years I've faced that one time. So save your excuses for not playing the mode. Secondly, based on your OWN admission, TT already wasn't a "casual friendly mode" if you went in and were so concerned people would be tryharding and using funnel strats in it all the time. --------- They care about ARAM because it has a playerbase. In terms of not keeping ARAM bans? Idk on that one. I liked them and hope they get put in permanently and I'm not sure why they haven't. But that hardly necessitates the level of self-righteous rage in your post. Also, you don't need to like TFT. But it IS popular. Your opinion is irrelevant, especially since you're so determined to quit anyway. Why should Riot care at all about what you have to say? Because 100 salty people upvoted this thread without looking at the contents because they are angry a mode they seldom played is vanishing? People are allowed to be upset that Twisted Treeline is going away. It's a bummer. There's a lot of cool art and resources sunk into it that I'll miss being able to see. But threads that try and manufacture some evil corporate conspiracy about it are ridiculous.
: If the Void is inspired by Lovecraft and Geiger than I'd say their current motivations are perfect. The machinations of Lovecraft especially are so terrifying because their motivations are unknowable - a gap in understanding between humanity and the occult leaves out any possibility for compromise. The Watchers have only known silence and our existence is unacceptable to them the Voidborn are instruments of their will further removing us one step from them. It's actually perfect the way it is imo. Having the Voidborn be autonomous or sentient and question their existence or their masters moves the whole thing towards a "woe is me" scenario that I really don't care to see explored
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the eldritch and I love HR Giger's work (RIP). But the Voidborn are not Cthulu, the closest analogue we have to that are the Watchers and they should *rightfully* be left as mysterious and indescribable. The Voidborn are the attempts of a foreign power to replicate life for their own ends. Ends which are very understandable: bring reality screaming to a halt. In that sense, the Voidborn, whilst their minds are completely different from our own and everything about their physiology is alien to us, are not beyond our comprehension. The Voidborn have already been characters, and reducing them to tools takes away from what their players like about them. What's scarier and less common: Big Bad makes legion of mindless baddies to swarm the world as their personal hive army in a way 100% the same as the Zerg/Tyranids OR: Big Bad floods the world with uncontrollably spreading life that not even it is fully in control of, because no matter the results it sees its victory as inevitable. Some catered to more specifics ends but most sent simply to bolster the corruption and create further destruction. Why would it do this instead of strategy? Maybe it is strategy. Watcher minds are not like our own. Why would something completely isolated from everything we associate with reality decide to copy insects when they start reconstituting matter? Voidborn are made for an immediate goal, and if they survive that immediate goal then their existence just... is. ------ Lastly: assuming autonomy leads to self pity humanizes them too much. Autonomy merely leads to decisions made for the self. It leads to the ability to set long-term goals. Those goals are informed by their status as outside of, beyond, or beneath the natural order. Voidborn have no reason to be loyal to their creators, they have no concept of loyalty. They aren't human, social connections and a sense of kinship are foreign concepts. They likely only see one thing: their personal gain. When a Voidborn becomes sentient it likely becomes aware of the many, many obstacles it faces in a world that doesn't want to be eaten. Voidborn has to eat to live, thus it reaches a conclusion. Devour everything and reshape it to their own needs, become the apex predator, understand it completely. None of those involve "woe is me." It's simply about an alien mind coming to terms with its place in a world that it isn't supposed to exist in and then trying to dictate its own place.
SEKAI (OCE)
: TLDR we need a anti-hero void champ who is basically the opposite of Zac. Yes please. That said, I don't think all void champs should become self aware. They can stay a part of the hive just fine, or even be conditioned to serve the hive in a pseudo individuality (mindless drones have a limit on useful they can be, the void may try to get around this by producing what's basically zealot soldiers who have certain degree of individuality but the bottom line is still to serve the hive), provided it's interestingly explored. I don't think void champs need to be able to be related to by the players, given their theme I think it's better if their characterisation provides a sense of "I am a soldier of hive" or at least comes back to the hive in some way as a contributor being the main fantasy. We just need 1 void character who is basically a mistake to have full individuality (and survived), and then we can tell all sorts of interesting story with them.
I wouldn't say that I want a Void hero, at all :P Kai'Sa already straddles that line too much and she's a hot mess. I want properly written, unique monsters. Still evil, but not evil "just because." Voidborn probably aren't an actual hive, and with characters like Kai'Sa and Kha'Zix we can see that aberrations who do their own thing exist. Rather than have Voidborn be custom made as leaders with, as you put it, "pseudo-individuality" wouldn't it be better to have it be a sort of natural selection where the leaders emerge by their own merit? It would set it apart from the done to death monster hive with custom build monsters for each role and make the Void its own thing. Every Voidborn is an individual, but together they form the chaotic mass that is the Void, and only those with the strength or intellect manage to rise above the throngs of mindless creatures. A parody of life from outside of it rather than a proper mimicry. Natural selection amped up to 11. Because right now, the "hive" is not and has not been the fantasy of Voidborn characters. It would be something imposed on characters people started to like. Cho'Gath was a conqueror, a GENERAL. He rose above the rest himself and devoured worlds with his armies. He wasn't a part of a hive, he worked for his own interest and had a legion of other voidborn under his thumb. And he had intellect, which the current rank-and-file Voidborn we have seen lack entirely.
Jaspers (EUW)
: A nice writeup. :) Your fears over the void characters being characters in their own right is the same issue I had with the idea Yordle aren't their own thing they just replicate the location they are. Poppy isn't heroic and idealistic, she's like that only because she's in Demacia for example. I think however the best indication of anything is simply time. At first, Vel'Koz and beings of his ilk were created as information sponges, basically. But they were few and far between, over time they died out and others followed on, Vel is the last remaining of those Voidborn as the Watchers created. Simple right? But as for the rest, for their limited intelligence or not, they are new compared to Vel, they are evolved version of the original design/creation that spawned from them and they are their own beings with their own purposes. They don't follow the Watchers desire to learn as they don't need to. I mean how does a fledgling Voidborn that grafted to Kai'sa skin answer back to Watcher and report back? It doesn't and their species hasn't for a long time. They are mindless animals or being of limited inteligence just like we are in our world, from humans to dogs to jellyfish. Watchers in their plans to find out what 'life is' and learn about it, inadvertently created life in the Voidborn. They still have their goals and Vel is the last to answer that but Cho, Kog and Kha all have their own desires and are independent beings.
I always thought Yordles sought out societies whose values matched theirs the closest, and then gradually became more in-tune with that culture rather than being shaped by it. The other way around seems like it takes away too much of them. ---------- I certainly think age is important, especially for Vel'Koz who gets the Respect Your Elders bonus. But the Watchers perceive time differently, since the ones who make the Voidborn live in a realm WITHOUT time. There is not necessarily a reason for them to upgrade/evolve the Voidborn. What Voidborn can do is *change* (randomly). The majority don't have minds. Not even animal level minds. They do not have instincts, nor do they experience physical sensations. They are fueled by the driving urge put inside of them by the Watchers: to consume. We've also been repeatedly informed that the Void is not an upgrade, which suggests that Voidborn do not NECESSARILY get stronger with time. Although for my money, I think Voidborn and Void-Touched (entities corrupted by the Void but not made by the Watchers personally) are different types entirely so perhaps that upgrade line isn't as relevant here. What we can see is that their appetite changes, particularly in the case of Kog'Maw and Vel'Koz, who both hunger for knowledge (in Kog'Maw's case, it's combined with his literal hunger for organic life). Or Rek'Sai, who has not developed enough of a mind to form her own ideas yet still behaves strangely. Those three seem to be the main indications that the Watchers can change the recipe slightly for more specific tasks. It's when the Voidborn made specifically as brute force destroyers, like the ones who were made to fight Icathia, suddenly start to have goals beyond kill whatever is right in front of them that i think they deviate. Kai'Sa suit BARELY counts for this, since she does the vast majority of the heavy lifting. But in a similar way to Kha'Zix it's goal has become to survive. Most don't even develop minds and just continue to randomly roam and devour everything in sight (based on what limited information can be gleaned from the current lore). I like the idea that the Watchers attempts at creating life aren't FULLY under their control.
YaraUwU (NA)
: Im still disappointed about {{champion:145}} there was so much potential to create something amazing and we got purple zero suit samus instead. Look i love boobs as much as the next girl. But what the actual hell was kai'sa? The character failed to impress on all fronts and im still upset a void character that could have been so interesting ended up being a human wearing a body suit. I honestly think the design plan for her was to create something they could easily shit 15 skins out for. I think the fact that i know there are so many people at riot that could have created such a better champion from her concept is what upsets me the most. Seeing riot squander a chance for someone to imagine up something so creative, amazing and enjoyable is really upsetting.
Kai'Sa is... interesting. I also think her design was a massive miss. Nothing associated with the Void should be sexualized. It really hurts community perceptions of the region as a whole on top of restricting some of the really cool stuff they could have done with her :( As a massive Void fan, I can't even really consider her a part of my favourite faction because of how much she derails it. She just doesn't have the aesthetic I like ingame even if her kit is very fun. Her lore impact is worsened by the information drought about the Void that came right after.
: if i remember Cho is just that as (while im unsure) he was in {{champion:136}} color story in which he was the huge monstrosity that couldnt even fit through the rift that was open so he just observed his smaller kind go through
Whether that Aurelion Sol story is canon or not anymore is questionable. The Zoe release really messed with his own lore in a few ways and he came just around the time when we got a bunch more retcons. We also have no confirmation that the thing behind the portal is Cho'Gath since Voidborn don't actually live in the Void... although him being a body made for a Watcher to transfer its consciousness into could be neat.
: im kinda confused on {{champion:145}} lore she survived in the void but i thought the void didnt have a true "physical" form i just asumed the void was a place more akin to "living" energy and that all monsters just gained a physical form in order to exist in our plane of existence
Not your fault for being confused. The Void lore has been a contradictory mess if one takes everything on the Universe page at face value. Much of it is outdated. 1) The Void is not a place where things live. It is an abyss, where nothing exists except the Watchers. -Voidborn never have experienced the Void. They are created by the Watchers from matter on Runeterra, born and raised as "locals." Nothing of them existed prior to their being formed. -As for your point about "living" energy, that's still a topic for debate. The purple energy that keeps Voidborn alive is a byproduct of the Void destroying magic+matter. It keeps them alive and seems to be able to function as a "soul" of sorts for them. Whether the Voidborn is tied to its body or the energy could be put into a different physical form is something that I myself am curious about. -Kai'Sa never went to the real Void, as she would have been destroyed instantly. The "void" she was in was actually the massive cave system filled with the Void's corruption underneath the desert in Shurima. It was a product of a massive Void Incursion in Icathia thousands of years ago. She survived in the caverns, which is still a MASSIVE thing, since it is the most hostile environment that exists on Runeterra where even the walls would kill you if they could. Hope this answers a few of your questions!
: I've said it in another thread but I think Cho'Gath should be like Vel'koz, completely self aware of himself and his existance, but instead of this idea of him being tragic, I think it suits Cho more to be the rule rather than the exception and have him utterly hate the world of Runeterra and the living things within it, because that kind of mindset fits with his original lines where he talks about being disgusted with the beings of that world and enjoying destruction. Kha should be completely selfish and self-centered, his raison d'etre is the become the apex predator, to be the fastest, strongest, smartest, best, being there is. Now, you can build on this with perhaps a flavor story of how when he first came to Runeterra he was weak and had to scavenge for food and struggle to stay alive until he finally was able to become strong enough to protect himself and then set himself to become the apex predator so he'd never have to fear anything else ever again, but conflicted feelings aren't for him I don't think. If any Voidborn that we currently have should illicit more complex and/or conflicted emotions then I think it is Kog'maw who should do that with his more naive child view of the world. It could be made even more tragic if he is in fact a baby Baron Nashor and is thus destined to be a great destroyer once he grows up. Show him BE like a puppy in one moment but the horribleness of the way he eats causes people to be revolted and terrified of him. Kog is the one we could get some kind of conflict from.
The main challenge I encounter when I try to imagine/write Cho'Gath hating the world without being a sort of deviant/aberrant Voidborn is that Voidborn have no reason to experience anything resembling hate in the way that Cho'Gath does. They don't see humans as hideous/disgusting, just as another thing to eat. It's in trying to keep his hate around that I think he should lean towards the tragic (Not sympathetic. Easy mix-up, but he can be a tragic existence without being something we have sympathy for. Nobody should empathize with him, but there should be some very bare understanding of where his hate stems from and how that ties into his nature). Cho'Gath should absolutely be the PARAGON of the Voidborn. Their full potential realized, perhaps even to the point that he has shaken off the influence of the Watchers and instead destroys of his own volition. ------- I like the Kha thing. He's got some pretty clear direction and something like that would fully cement him as his own character rather than just leaving him as a rival to Rengar. Kog'Maw definitely opens up many avenues for exploration of what proper human interaction can do to a developing Voidborn mind. Tragic in his case is the wrong word, imo. All Voidborn are destined to destroy, but unlike the others Kog'Maw will have enough human interaction and ability to learn from them that he is a unique existence even amongst Voidborn. Kog'Maw can go down many paths: Imagine a thousand years down the line somebody meets a Kog'Maw who through his experiences was taught ways to coexist, becoming essentially a wise creature who lives in isolation and has great knowledge. The one destined to be a destroyer who instead became something akin to a sage. Since he learns via eating, for a price of a body part, he can tell someone their true potential. (Not my personal choice of a future for him, but more something to indicate exactly how wildly different he could be from the others of his kind.
: I stopped playing this bloody game a while ago, and I left the lore as well because I was getting tired that nothing seemed to be advancing. I still haunt these forums from time to time though, and I just wanted to say you're doing fantastic write-ups for how to develop the Void (my favorite region as you might be able to tell from my username; also, sorry for taking this if you wanted it Void Kaiju XD). On this post specifically, I wholeheartedly agree. As a fan of "monsters" or "creatures" in general, there are quite a few interesting angles to take the Voidborn champions from that would give them distinct personalities. Just off the top of my head, some ideas I had: {{champion:31}}: An old, ancient Voidborn, monstrously powerful but also incredibly sinister. The same as his old lore suggested that the Summoners didn't really control him and he simply tolerated them for the time being, I think that should be transferred over to his relationship with the Watchers. He could arguably be the strongest Voidborn active on Runeterra; however, he's also the most mentally-distant. He's no longer really under the Watcher's influence but is still using the powers they granted him to his own ends. A weapon with a mind of his own, who could just as very well end Runeterra as he can the Void & his former masters. {{champion:96}}: I think little Kog'Maw is most prominently defined by him being an alien child who's exploring the world. His character should most likely be one where he's simply curious, but the way he explores just happens to be antithetical to our way of life. If he ever gets a VO update, I would like to hear him grow more mature as he levels up, where he starts just gurgling and uttering simple phrases before forming more complex thoughts. From there, he might be the most "native" Voidborn; he's alien, but he sees Runeterra as his home, and so doesn't have nearly the same disregard for it that Vel or Cho may have. He's cute in an eldritch way. On another extreme, he could flip the entire "Lovecraftian" trope on its head - instead of us mortals going mad from the grand view of the cosmos, it is the cosmic entity that goes mad from us. Maybe Koggles acts as the outsider, constantly puzzled by this world. {{champion:121}}: I honestly like Kha'Zix's characterization as it is - the personification of an alien apex predator. He's ravenous and cunning and efficient and bloodthirsty simply because he is. In terms of his relationship to the Watchers/the Void as a whole, I think he could be a representative of the Void literally evolving, becoming something greater than what it was intended for. Kha'Zix isn't adapting for some ulterior purpose, he's doing it for himself. Just mainly wanted to drop by to say you're doing a fantastic job theorizing about how the Void can be developed in an actually compelling way. Keep up the great work.
Well... I'd be lying if I said Voidzilla wasn't the first name I went for when I changed my summoner name :P I really appreciate the kind words! I put loads of effort into these and hearing it's paying off means a lot to me. (also gradually seeing community perceptions of the Void shift more towards the way I write about it is deeply satisfying, but that's a whole separate thing!) I love your ideas! you keep them alien and outside of the "natural order" but also make them seem like they fit into the world naturally. My headcanons/hopes are somewhat similar to yours, so I'll be partly building off of what you've written there but with a little more focus on the aspects I've been thinking a lot about: Cho'Gath I see in a pretty similar light to how you do: a weapon that grew beyond the control if its creators. I totally agree with the capturing the vibe of his old lore, a barely contained force of destruction that wants nothing more than the destruction of all that would restrain it. I tend to think about him in terms of *why* he hates the world so much. My operating theory is that he started as an ordinary Voidborn, birthed in a great conflict and destined only to die whilst taking as many of Runeterra's defends with him as he could. But at some point a desire to survive blossomed inside of him, and in that brief moment he disobeyed the overwhelming instincts insisting he run to his death. Survival became his priority. But he did not fit in the world, to him it was a hostile one that attempted to destroy him at every turn. Since he needed to destroy it to stay alive, that goal shaped him. His desire to exist turned into a hatred for the world, an omnicidal fury that he delighted in indulging. He would devour all of it, forge a reality on his own terms. Be the greatest and the only, and he would enjoy twisting the faces of those who opposed him into pain and terror as they watched the birth of a new world. For Kog'Maw in particular I'm interested in how his relations with humans, particularly the Void Cult and Malzahar, will define his growth and his understanding of his role in the world. Is he even capable of learning, or is he boundlessly curious because he doesn't retain information well? Will he find a more positive sort of identity for himself compared to the likes of Cho'Gath and Kha'Zix, who prioritize domination, subjugation, and consumption above all else in order to ensure that they survive? Kha'Zix definitely needs the least work of any of them to have a functioning story. How does he see his place in the world? At the top, as the apex predator. That is the identity he has forged for himself and why he cannot stand Rengar, the hunter who bested him. Unlike Cho'Gath who fully saw himself as an outsider and defined the world as his enemy, Kha'Zix sees himself as a part of the world but won't settle for being anything but the *best* part of it. His drive for survival manifested itself differently, but also made him forge his own path separate from the Watchers' original intentions. Once again, I really appreciate your comment! I hope the canon lore eventually becomes something that you can get excited for again.
: I personally feel as though my main {{champion:161}} has some serious lore twist potential, but maybe its just me. Basically he's a creature sent by the void to gather information for them, getting smarter as he does, and giving that info to the void. His lore and especially voice lines make it sound as though he is getting a near insatiable lust for knowledge, and as he is free thinking (unlike other voidlings) I feel as though Vel'koz may realize that he cannot have the void destroy Runeterra. While i'm unsure if he would help the humans fight the void, it feels like it would only make sense for him to try to stop giving over his information to them. Remember his old story where he had no trouble slaughtering his fellow voidlings because they got in the way of his research? I don't think it is still canon anymore, but if it is, it backs me up. In his current story, he is quoted saying "A universe of knowledge surrounds me, of great power and distant lands, and I shall collect it all." This could be interpreted to mean not even the void will stand in his way of information should the void attack Runeterra again. His story right now is alright, but making one voidling unaffiliated with the void (especially one so powerful) could be extremely interesting. Just my thoughts of course.
Whilst I'm not sure if Vel'Koz would actively rebel against the Watchers, I totally am under the impression that he's intentionally dragging out his mission by pursuing every scrap of information he possibly can instead of prioritizing things the Watchers deem important. The world can end, but ONLY after he understands every nook and cranny if it. Only once he is satisfied will he transfer the Watchers the information they need. And he would absolutely slaughter fellow Voidborn who threatened to enable them to end to world before he was done with it. Voidborn achieving independence,to lesser or greater degrees, really helps flesh them out as characters instead of hollow puppets. Vel'Koz is no exception to that!
: > [{quoted}](name=Void Kaiju,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=6VWFEMjI,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-07-24T20:29:38.705+0000) > > I don't think all is lost. > > The new Watchers+Void lore did shore in many of the world-ending threats that had gradually been piling up due to the lack of long-term plans for the story as each champion was released. We had the Frozen Watchers from some other plane of existence, The Darkin from some other plane of existence, the Voidborn from some other plane of existence. It makes some sense that they decided to tie up all the messy loose ends. > And I do feel it can work. > > Vel'Koz, for example, hasn't changed much. His old lore had him come to the world with a mission to learn everything he could, and his new lore maintains that pretty well. > > The Voidborn being created ON Runeterra opens up a unique, existential dynamic between themselves and the world around them. They have nowhere else, and their needs run counter to those of the world. They aren't conquerors, they are outsiders. Their identity is at odds with the world and their purposes are unclear, which has the potential to be very compelling imo. > > ------------------ > > I do hate the idea that the Watchers directly control Voidborn and every Voidborn is their minion. If riot makes that the canon, it will probably kill the majority of my passion for the lore instantly. Fantasy doesn't need another hiveswarm-tide-of-bodies monster army. my favorite possible aspect to be explored for voidborn is the fact that the watchers work in "mysterious ways". what I mean is that unlike other lovecraftian and eldritch beings, it is not only humans that are pawns for the Watchers game, but their very own monsters. they have them designed for a specific goal, but can only HOPE that those monsters do so and don't become self aware enough to do something else. it's like how Kog'maw is innocent, not knowing right and wrong. he is going to Malhazar, but he could potentially develop his own morals if the lore had him in special situations. not only that but he is the only voidborn specifically made to learn about the world about him (and not of the scientific bent like Vel'koz, but just to experience it). basically, even the beasts who dont belong are just pawns who have no idea about the watchers. and as everyone knows, even a pawn can become a spanner in the works
Yeah I think it's a cool thing that the Voidborn could do whatever they want, completely unaware that the watchers wanted them to do those things. The Watchers let them loose, but can only hope that the Voidborn, despite their chaotic nature, act in a way that is according to the desires of the Watchers. It adds an interesting dynamic for intelligent Voidborn in particular, who have the potential to discover their creators and attempt to define their own twisted reason for existence.
: I mean it kinda is lost like the majority of the not so old lore. The void went from a dimension filled with unimaginable purplish monsters to some black endless darkness filled with some generic eye monsters. It killed the whole mystery behind it. And even worse for what? For some generic big-eyed monsters. The question is lost. What is the void? Nothing...literally nothing... Them tieing the Frozen Watchers with the void was hands down the worse decision they made so far. Not only it completely killed the Frejlord story but it fked up the void. Because of that reason they are called the Watchers and have to look that bland and boring. Eye with tentacles.... soo original and coool. And Vel'koz was interesting because he was different from the other ones he wasn't killing eating or hunting like the others he was gaining knowledge. Now what's funny he is still intelligent and superior then the others but he is the biggest clown because he does everything just to send it off to the Watchers. He isn't mindless like the others but at least they are free. And the whole spawning in Runeterra while not existing in the void is just annoying. So they could be literally anything since they are created randomly in front of the rifts. And this together with them not existing inside just drops the ball. It lost the mystery of whats else inside. And the whole mission thing just killed my whole interest in this, and this was my favorite thing about the lore. They want to destroy Runeterra... Is this some cartoon villain switcheroo? It makes all the void characters look like nothing. They solely exist just to be erased from existence, in the end, no matter what. There was so much potential and so much development to be done with the void but they just did what they do best. Retcon and start over, and over and over again.
I personally didn't feel like there was much mystery behind the old Void. It just felt like another bunch of interdimensional invaders coming to eat people. But you've got your preferences, I don't really agree with them since there are many parts of the new direction I like a lot more than the old one, but your opinion is valid.
: >A hive mind removes the agency of the character and completely restricts their ability to exist in the story. > > Having the Watchers actively influence them, instead of having them be designed for a purpose by the Watchers, limits their narrative potential. There's a certain allure to wondering whether or not a character's actions are all according to plan. Is Hecarim acting of his own volition? Or has his will been so influenced by the Mist that he does the Ruined King's bidding without being aware of it? I didn't suggest a hive mind though (although I can see the chess piece metaphor being taken that way) -- I don't see the Void creatures as *mindless* pawns. I see them as the beings through which the Watchers interact with the non-Void world. They might have agency. They might make decisions the Watchers don't *want*, but they don't have the *direct* control to tell them no -- just an innate connection to that creature. A through-line that enables them to communicate with it, because it has no way to report back if it *doesn't*, and the whole point of them is to allow the Void to learn and gain a foothold. A better example might be the old "the gods play games with humans" angle. If you can't see and hear the gods at least a bit, you don't realize the scope of the game being played, but the individual pieces -- even if spoken to BY the gods -- have their own will and make their own decisions. The heroes of Greek myth aren't any lesser because they receive assistance and speak with the gods, and it really just adds another level to the narrative.
Although I'm not entirely certain how much of the Watchers I'd be interested in hearing due to the risk of removing some of the eldritch horror associated with them. But as long as they Voidborn can still become independent and capable of acting unprompted by the Watchers/interacting with the world around them in a compelling way I'll be pleased. Although the through-line idea still makes the more recent lore acquisition regarding Vel'Koz needing to deposit his findings directly into Void Rifts sketchy.
: I think they fked up merging the void and Watchers. With doing that they made the void from being a random almost like a space virus that randomly opens in the universe with monsters to some empty dark place filled with more godlike cosmic entities. That made all other void born just pawns in their random game with Runeterra. Vel'koz now is just slave. All other ones are just random footsoldiers disturbing the random mortals they encounter. Them wanting to create their perfect world really damaged many aspects of the story and this being one that damages mutable champions. It went from an interesting thing to a generic we are evil big-eyed monsters and we want to kill everyone in this world and here are our little minions. It lost its potential to be something else then just an evil dimension that wants the world dead. And the design of the new void watchers is sad. Because they had to make them look similar to the ones that are on the ARAM map and tie them to the Frejlord story so they kept the name "Watchers" And they had to look like that... And them changing the whole idea behind the void born and how they look... They don't even exist in the void the void is no longer the void......
I don't think all is lost. The new Watchers+Void lore did shore in many of the world-ending threats that had gradually been piling up due to the lack of long-term plans for the story as each champion was released. We had the Frozen Watchers from some other plane of existence, The Darkin from some other plane of existence, the Voidborn from some other plane of existence. It makes some sense that they decided to tie up all the messy loose ends. And I do feel it can work. Vel'Koz, for example, hasn't changed much. His old lore had him come to the world with a mission to learn everything he could, and his new lore maintains that pretty well. The Voidborn being created ON Runeterra opens up a unique, existential dynamic between themselves and the world around them. They have nowhere else, and their needs run counter to those of the world. They aren't conquerors, they are outsiders. Their identity is at odds with the world and their purposes are unclear, which has the potential to be very compelling imo. ------------------ I do hate the idea that the Watchers directly control Voidborn and every Voidborn is their minion. If riot makes that the canon, it will probably kill the majority of my passion for the lore instantly. Fantasy doesn't need another hiveswarm-tide-of-bodies monster army.
: Personally I want to know more about the whole process in slow detail of how the God-Warriors https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/c/cc/AatroxSquare.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20180612203801 https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/c/c2/VarusSquare.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20171215205843 https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/2e/RhaastSquare.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20171109063634 were corrupted differently https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/c/c0/Deathbringer_Stance.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20170628021945 https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/9/9b/Living_Vengeance.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20170628021945 https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/f/fe/The_Darkin_Scythe_R.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20170628021945 after the battle of Icathia. And why Varus' corruption is Purple where as his other companions Rhaast and Aatrox is Red.. And one more thing, assuming the https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/63/Chain_of_Corruption.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20171215205843 Blight part of Varus' Character (that is seen in-game with his W and R) is still cannon with all the updates; * Is the Blight Void based? * How deadly is it? * Is it harmful to all organic beings such as Voidborn https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/a1/Void_Swarm.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20170628021945 https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/ae/Cho%27GathSquare.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20150402215703 https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/1/14/Kha%27ZixSquare.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20160526212833 https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/45/Kog%27MawSquare.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20150402220409 https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/3/3e/Rek%27SaiSquare.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20160526213622 https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/05/Vel%27KozSquare.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/20?cb=20150402222335 themselves? * What symptoms does Blight have if it's like some sort of proper disease?
I'm no ascended expert, unfortunately. But I am fairly certain that there are rioter comments suggesting that the "corruption" the ascended experienced from their battles with the Void was more akin to god-ptsd than literal physical change. So the answer to your question would be more in regards to: How did the Darkin deal with their trauma, and how did that impact the ways in which they rebuilt their bodies over the centuries? Sorry I can't find the exact quotes right now :(
Rodsquad (EUW)
: Oh thank you so much for being a better writer than me and putting all these great ideas in one place ;w; im never not one to ask for more void updates and lore, especially with my son {{champion:121}} but I never know how to write it out better. This was a great read, and I really like your ideas! I really do hope Riot tries to unstagnate the lore of the voidborn.
<3 The Void needs more love! Cho'Gath turned 10 this year and his lore is barely younger than he is :((( Writing stories for monsters is a challenge, I just have a tiny advantage due to being a monster nerd. Thank you so much for the kind comment, I'm glad you liked the thread!
FAAtheguy (EUW)
: I'm about 100% sure that Riot will come up with something that changes their behavior to separate them from the mindless masses of other voidborn. If anything, Shadow Isles should be a good example for you of how they handle a group of very similar entities that have basically the same origin.
My concern is that I have seen zero information that suggests that is the direction they are headed. The shadow Isles champions are (were) human. They have a comfortable human baseline to return to. It's easy to get people to imagine the depth of these characters because they are corrupted humans, they have a human past and people enjoy looking for those last dregs of their former identities. But Voidborn are monsters, through and through. Riot's monster track record is, to put it generously, awful. We've already heard that internal directions suggest Voidborn are incapable of speech, which makes having them interact with the world dicey. And every depiction of Voidborn we have heard shows them as mindless eating machines with the exception of Vel'Koz. Kai'Sa has made the Void harder to take seriously as a threat due to survivor bias. ------------ That said, I hope with all my heart that you're right and I'm just concerned over nothing. I really, really do. But as it stands right now the radio silence won't let me rest easy. I don't want just another hive mind swarm enemy that we see in every game universe ever. They could be so much more.
: >There is so much depth to these characters. So much colorful identity that can be hinted at beneath the warped carapace and gnashing teeth. I disagree with this. Is there *potential* depth? Sure. But saying they currently have depth seems inaccurate given how simplistic their vocal lines and personalities currently are. >The focus on keeping them eldritch and incomprehensible, on keeping the Watchers as the main agents of anything the Void does, diminishes it rather than making it unique. I also disagree with this. To me, the existence of the Watchers and their obscure, alien motives are what makes the current Void lore *interesting*. It's no longer just "discount Lovecraft" or "random place that monsters come from" but basically a home of ancient and indecipherable beings who have a motive and an agenda and actively act upon reality. I stand by my comment I said in one of your earlier threads: I want to see *more* interaction with the Watchers. I'd love to hear their whispers every time I play a Void champion, whether I'm taking on the perspective of the Watchers playing with their pawns or I'm taking on the perspective of the champion and hearing the feedback of my alien superiors. Then the fantasy either becomes "god-like entity commanding immeasurably powerful chess pieces" or "monstrous herald of a god-like entity." The Watchers are, currently, the most interesting and character-like Void entity, so let's *build* on that. That doesn't mean that the Void champions can't be characters in their own rights, but rather gives them someone to actually *interact* with and a commonality between them that isn't shared by the rest of the cast.
For your first point: sure, I should have said potential depth. But that's just semantics given the context of my post is how they aren't being explored enough to show their character. ------- The basis of your second point is entirely the issue I have with the void: The Watchers are literally the only characters with any development for the Void. That shouldn't be used as justification for further neglect of other Void characters, *especially* the ones who actually exist in the game. Even the Watchers' development is literally just "they don't like reality and want to remove it." And honestly? Their motive doesn't need to be more complicated than that. They don't need to be schemers. Explaining more of the Watchers runs counter to the whole indescribable vibe that they are supposed to have. On top of that, it would honestly be more fitting for these eldritch monsters not to have direct hive mind control over the Voidborn. Otherwise Vel'Koz wouldn't need to find Void Rifts to infodump into. The Watchers want nothing to do with reality, it's the whole basis of them. So constantly involving themselves in something as alien to them as they are to us seems strange. They literally made Voidborn so they wouldn't have to personally interact with reality in any capacity. ---------- I personally don't have any desire to feel like somebody else is telling me what to do when I'm playing a champion. I'm not playing an RC car. For Cho'Gath alone, that's a massive downgrade from his previous status as a *general.* Even the servants of the black mist aren't constantly harangued by its voice aside from Yorick, whose defining trait is his resistance to it. A hive mind removes the agency of the character and completely restricts their ability to exist in the story. I also feel like incorporating any sense of kinship into the Voidborn detracts from their potential. Being a part of a hive mind 1) invalidates the existence of Kai'Sa/other Voidborn who cannibalize one another, and 2) takes away from their chaotic nature. The fact that we have repeatedly been told that "the void is not a power up" implies that they aren't some army being built. Having the Watchers actively influence them, instead of having them be designed for a purpose by the Watchers, limits their narrative potential. There's a certain allure to wondering whether or not a character's actions are all according to plan. Is Hecarim acting of his own volition? Or has his will been so influenced by the Mist that he does the Ruined King's bidding without being aware of it? Vel'Koz doesn't set out to learn things that the Watchers send him to do. I doubt the death throes of the Freljordians in his story were something he was compelled to learn to further the Watchers' ends. He was merely curious. But we're left unsure as to whether or not he actually was doing their specific bidding. It would make more sense to define these abominations who should not exist by their relationship with the world around them than with each other. Their interactions and growth would be more informed by that. Their origins are already a commonality that the rest of the cast doesn't share: They're all in a world which they biologically should never have been created in and that's already got a lot of narrative space on its own.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 19
Good afternoon Meddler! Just a quick question: Have you guys considered playing around with Cho'Gath's ultimate to try and reduce the frustration surrounding it? Right now it can cause frustration for both the user and the one being eaten. -If you lose vision of a target or they flash away at the right moment, feast will miss. -Sometimes it goes on cooldown without granting a stack or applying its damage -It is largely invalidated by items like Steraks Gage and Phantom Dancer. -750 base damage plus two forms of scaling at rank 3 means a Cho'Gath who is ahead denies non HP-stacking enemies the ability to play the game against him if he has flash or a movement speed boost. -By the same token, against high HP targets it can be a massive chore to whittle them down to the health threshold for the kill. ------------ Things like: making his ultimate a proper execute like Urgot/Pyke, but reducing the base damage (ESPECIALLY at later ranks which is where it gets out of line) could help solve a lot of these. -also much much much earlier in his patch history, his ultimate did %max HP damage which could be an interesting way to reduce frustration surrounding his ult and improve clarity for all parties. Just wondering if this has been on anybody's mind :) Best of luck catching all those bugs!
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nPKsXcyR,comment-id=0009000200000000,timestamp=2019-07-19T00:19:38.522+0000) > > So...tanks shouldn’t go top. tanks should - be able to go top - go even with fighters early on and possibly win lane against them during that window when playing better - on even terms (gold, xp) get outscaled in 1v1 and split pushing for having more teamfight presence they should not be champions like {{champion:31}} who scale up in aoe cc/utility of tanks, beef, sustain, and damage of juggernauts i know there is like a soft scale between, mobility, utility, beef, damage, sustain and all of the available traits, and not every tank or bruiser will have exactly the same traits and will lack the same traits, but there is definitely a point where a champion has too much of everything. putting high base damage and especially scaling % damage into utility loaded tank kits gives them too much of everything imo.
Cho'Gath isn't really a tank in the traditional sense. He's a mage/juggernaut hybrid. 1: Cho'Gath's only AoE CC whose effectiveness scales with rank is W. 2: His utility is much lower than other tanks, as his only actual hard CC is an easily avoided knockup. Other than that he has a high uptime slow. 3: His sustain is garbage outside of very earlygame. It's a flat HP+Mana restore that scales badly and doesn't keep up with his HP bar at all if he decides to build tank items. He has no in-combat sustain, nor an ability in his kit that lets him avoid/mitigate damage. All he can do is try to kill somebody before they kill him. 4: He's massive and immobile. if people can't kite him that is 100% on them. The main problem is that his kit is forced to function as a massive stat check. If tank Cho were OP then you would people building it in high elo. But it's all FULL AP up there. ------------- The problem with tanks is that their itemization is super skewed. Many get the exact same value out of their items that every single other champion in the game does, whilst getting massively reduced value when trying to build anything else. There are a handful of cheap tank items that provide some solid stats but the combine costs are high and the value added is often low. Bramble Vest: Amazing, but Thornmail is not. But thornmail is bought nearly 100% of the time because without it you can literally never damage anybody and become a living health pack. Glacial Shroud: Very strong early item, and the only good armor+CDR option. but unless you decide to go IBG it isn't gonna pull much weight. The situation carries over for pretty much every tank item. Many tanks don't have issues in the earlygame (or at least, don't just autolose lane) but they simply get outscaled very quickly and are NEVER able to get the bulk they need to scale back into the game. Enemies who get to build damage and get some of the free pen+in combat sustain just cannot be touched. PLUS those champions can easily opt in to the attractive Magic Resist itemization which absolutely slams the ability of most tanks to ever trade and usually also comes with a passive which massively benefits its buyer as a singular item. Tanks also have lots of CC but aren't able to DO very much during its duration. They are expected to rely on teammates for that. A Riven who lands her stun or a darius who lands his pull may both have less CC in their kits total than a tank but they can squeeze so much value out of it.
: For entire seasons you discouraged "healbot Soraka" and you come up with Yuumi
Yuumi and Soraka have fundamentally different kits. Soraka, who has an AoE silence to deny all-ins, massive self+ADC healing, and the ability to net assists anywhere on the map by pressing R when an enemy is about to die, does not need to fear assassins or poke or all ins. She has all the tools needed to deny those things completely provided she stays as safe as possible. She does not need to partake in the game in any way. Her kit invalidates the methods of play that are meant to counter her. The playstyle comparison is there, but it's FAR healthier on Yuumi. Her peel is DRAMATICALLY inferior to Soraka. She relies on poking people down and reducing the impact of their own poke. Her ADC is still extremely vulnerable to all-ins. There is functional counterplay. I get you probably lost to a Yuumi and are upset but that's not because she's a better Soraka. Yuumi is expected to be more proactive and she can't just deny you the ability to play the game the way healbot soraka could.
huhndog (NA)
: I'm not getting my hopes up until I see the spotlight for it first. His w music is going to be beautiful, but I don't know like how his e would look
https://twitter.com/lollatam/status/1150774688802648065
: I too, am extremely happy he will be with the project series and VERY surprised you wanted this more than a cho'gath skin
I've got the whole collection of Cho'Gath skins and he's got a LOT :P I'd like to share the wealth across some of my other faves.
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Void Kaiju

Level 214 (NA)
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