: > [{quoted}](name=Void Kaiju,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ieKZlA1u,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-11-21T05:10:37.371+0000) > > Pretty sure it gets turned off if you go into options and turn off eye candy Nope.
Weird. I read somewhere that it was supposed to and idk why it wouldn't be included in shit that can get turned off
XeptionaL (EUW)
: Elemental Drake visual tint
Pretty sure it gets turned off if you go into options and turn off eye candy
: Personally i always loved the idea of Cho just becoming this power mongering monster that hunts after large targets and sources of power to make himself more powerful. IK that u may not like the idea of making Cho simply a energy/magic/power/lifesource eater, I really enjoyed the idea that he'd seek out powerful sources of magic to make himself a bigger nuclear magic reactor. Pretty sure it was you who wrote an idea for Cho that made him the Typhon to the Targons Greek Gods. That idea really stuck in my head. But some other commentators made some good points. LoL has a few issues when it comes to monsters 1.) theres already quite a few world ending threats so its getting kinda crowded 2.) world threat depending on the LVL of threat and what exactly they want can be hard to write for in terms of possible stories and interactions AND believability 3.) a lot of monsters goals are already rooted in some kinda destruction, making their goals unrealistic and making them harder to relate to possibly lowering popularity unnecessarily So while we KNO we can't/shouldn't change Cho TOO much just to force him to fit certain standards, but theres a few things we can do to avoid some of these glaring issues. Riot already wants to write monsters off as inherent failures, so lets avoid their mistakes, not give them anymore reasons to say they were right, and prove them wrong. Theres actually a few paths we can take to avoid the mistakes listed above and the mistakes we KNO Riot has made (lemme kno if i've missed anything) For one we KNO that most Voidborns goals are rooted or end in some type of destruction. However how we handle how they REACH those goals can be more nuanced and include more steps and more relatability. For one thing we can shift Cho's goals around, he doesn't have to want the inherent destruction of Runeterra so much as just getting more powerful in general, and he can WANT power for a few reasons: One cool thing about non-monster characters is that they show the potential for growth and possibly have stronger adversaries that they hoped to beat. Monsters tend to lack that because as monsters they are usually already near or at the top of their game, thats what makes them threats as monsters as they are already stronger than those around them. 1) Of course Cho's theme as an ever growing threat makes him unique, BUT only in the case that he gets stronger, withOUT the previously stated adjacent themes. You spoke at length about how important Cho's autonomy from the Watchers is...but don't all other existing Voidborn have autonomy as well? The only thing that im aware that related to a control theme with Cho is him vs the retconned Summoners. It seems like Cho fans might kinda be snatching at straws for themes for their boi since theres an excessive lack of them. nevermind that, lets run with it. Who says Cho already HAS to be completely free? As an intelligent being Cho would have to first be aware that he's under control. He'd realize that if he wants to have future goals (watever they are) he'd first have to break free of the Watchers control, this can be a VERY believable and achievable goal for Cho as he grows into a bigger threat, and breaking free and wishing for autonomy is very relatable. We can start Cho's story as being in a state that he's aware that he's under control and is near breaking free, and is able to act on his own will for periods of time. OR that he can act semi-freely but knows his will is being controlled. We can also have him realize that if he grows in power eventually he will be able to break free. Thats achievable sub-goal one for a story 2) instead of going DIRECTLY for world destruction, Cho can first aim simply for powerful objects to consume their power, and grow his own, maybe they power or objects is grafted to his body, or creates new features as the excess power morphs his body. As an intelligent creature maybe we DON'T kno his end goal, but he knows he needs power to achieve it. There also interesting things we can do, as an intelligent seeker/consumer of powerful objects whose main, immediate goal isn't "destroy everything/runeterra" maybe he gets or tricks others into getting the items for him. Maybe he has a proxy being that he's taken control of in some way that he gets to do some things for him, maybe he gets into fights with other collectors, maybe he trades items that the other being doesn't realize is actually more powerful or at least is more fitting for him. Imagine him tricking Ezreal into getting him a shuriman gem or something like that. Thoughts?
I prefer the idea that nothing is "beneath" his notice. Cho'Gath is indiscriminate with his killing, rather than just actively seeking out the strongest thing (we already have Brand who hunts world runes, Kha'Zix who hunts for strong foes, Sylas who looks for strong magic, Etc. It's way more overdone than world-ender). I'm gonna try to mirror your format in my responses so it's easier. ----------- 1) Hard disagree. World ending threats currently are: Watchers, World Runes. Maybe Mordekaiser, if we're feeling generous. Other "world ender" power level champions have no motivation to be a threat to the world. Aatrox wants to end the world but he isn't going to be able to do it unless he's releasing the Watchers or using the World Runes, which are the real world ending threats. 2) He's never going to be easy to write for. That is not, nor will it ever be, in the cards. He doesn't have a motive to interact with people if he's strong, unless he needs something from them. He will never be a mainstay presence in the lore. I just want him to have SOME content, which would be more than doable even with him being a high-tier world destroying threat. 3) The goal for this update shouldn't be general appeal. That's for characters like Lux and Kai'Sa and Ezreal and Yasuo. You're not gonna be able to make Cho'Gath any less relatable than he is currently even if you tried to. What matters is properly conveying his fantasy. Destruction for destruction's sake isn't the goal. But destruction should be an inevitable part of his pursuit of his desires. ----------- I wouldn't say that Riot wants to write monsters as "inherent failures." I just think that there hasn't been enough of a chance given to the monster characters to shine, and the low standards lore had way back in the day means that many of the monster champions have been written into a corner. I'll always argue that monster champions have potential, and that new ones should be created. But I don't at all think this should come at the cost of losing characters who already exist. I haven't really argued that Cho'Gath's goal should be to destroy Runeterra. I always finish with him turning to consume the heavens, which I think should be his true goal. But do to so requires him to eat the entire world, and as a being that neither ages nor tires, he can pursue this consumption of the world however he pleases. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. ------------- 1) Cho'Gath's growth should be punctuated by challenges he must overcome with cunning. He doesn't need to "grow" as a character because chances are he's already ancient and highly intelligent. We don't need a coming of age story, or a conquering of his personal demons. Although I argue that Voidborn have autonomy from the Watchers, that autonomy is extremely limited. Most have no mind to be autonomous with (Kha'Zix being the notable exception here who is probably mostly autonomous) and Vel'Koz is intelligent and subservient to them. I don't think pursuit of his freedom necessarily needs to be one of his themes. I just said that he shouldn't be subservient to the watchers because it's one of the VERY FEW things he has had to latch on to. The specifics of that freedom can vary, but if he doesn't have it he should be striving to attain it. He should want to show that he cannot be controlled because everything is his lesser. This would result in him coming into conflict with the Watchers (or Voidborn, their hands and feet on Runeterra) and Celestials who both wish to determine the fate of Runeterra from the outside. If Cho'Gath is a Voidborn, he was born there. And nobody is gonna dictate his fate to him. 2) Again, Cho wouldn't go directly for world destruction because that would be bad writing. I'm not sold on the idea of Cho'Gath manipulating others to bring him objects of power, nor am I sold on him needing objects of power. Sure, he'd consume them. But the objects shouldn't be what is special. He is. He subjugates the matter and magic he eats and makes it a part of him. The idea of Cho'Gath being reliant on anyone or anything to become strong just..... irks me.
: bumping and necroing this post
Sorry for not responding to the bigger comment yet, I haven't had much time for the Boards this past week (and I still don't have much time at the moment. School's picking up.) Just commenting to let you know I have read it and will reply when I get the chance.
: I still don't like this "living reactor" thing. Your lore ideas are kind of cool aside from how you want to change the character. He doesn't eat magic, he eats people. Not saying I'm 100% against it, you could probably sell it to me. I just like Cho'Gath as being the more physical and organic void character, all the others are energy and sharp bits and goo.
I don't want to stop him from eating people! I just don't lean much on his more physical devouring and destroying because I feel it kinda goes without saying.(Although I could probably do with emphasizing it more when I write if it feels like I'm downplaying it!) I like the magic devouring angle because it pushes the theme of world eater even further and adds an extra dimension to it, and I also just really love Feral Scream. Runeterra has many threats who no amount of physical force will push through, so making him eat their magic away and need to contend with his peerless physical power seems like a good way to make sure his bulk isn't invalidated. The reactor bit is very classic Godzilla inspired. Godzilla was physically mighty, but he also irradiated everything he was near, rendering land uninhabitable and making people sick by merely being next to him. I want to call back to that feeling of absolute helplessness and despair. He is a physical being but he is so far beyond people that he may as well be a force of nature. Don't forget about reksai who is also all about physical power too :P
: As i said before, you cant simply put a character that wants to do X, has the power of doing X... but doesnt do that X thing that he wants to do. Him being a "cosmic player" distance him even more from the rest and makes him recieve even less lore. Sure, Aurelion is important in the lore... but he cant do anything relevant. Sure, there is an explanation with the crown... but the truth is that Riot knows that creatures with those levels of power must be "chained". Does really matter if Chogath is a "cosmic player" if Riot will give him "lore chains" like they did to him in the past with the League? It better for him to not have such power, and be free, than being powerfull but unable to do anything. Because you can tell more stories about him if he is free. Yorick and Senna want the same thing, but Senna was not created by Yorick to do his bidding. That is the difference between them and The Watchers with Chogath. If Chogath does what the Watchers want, then he is being a tool and nothing more... Regarless if that is what he want as well.
Chogath as a growing champion doesn't necessarily have the power to do x (x being end the world). He has the potential to do that, which is meaningfully different. The reason he hasn't ended the world is because he cannot do so in his current state. Lore chains don't matter too much to me tbh. No matter how this ends up going he's probably not gonna get much story stuff. I just hope for more than the current none at all, and maybe some juicy Kaiju action. You make some good points but overall I'm thinking we're gonna need to agree to disagree since our opinions just differ on some points regarding agency/free will in characters and philosophical debate is a little too involved for boards posts haha I appreciate your passion though :) thanks for the discussion!
: I get what you say... But do you really think that adding more powerfull creatures is the best way of fixing the power creep? I know this has nothing to do with what i said initially, but, giving him more power because there are creatures with tons of powers will just continuing increasing the powergap between champs. If Riot continues doing that, we will end up with tons of "world ending threats", yet no end of the world. The lore of Chogath does not need to be focused on his goal of "eating the world", that just makes him a big puppet of the Watchers since that is what THEY want. And as you say... "We need to be careful not to have him overlap too much with the Watchers", if we want him to not overlap with the Watchers, then dont give him the same goal.
I think that the celestial conflict is the new highest scale and that bringing him up to that standard is good (especially because some of his most recent "lore" is galio calling him World Eater and Diana, an aspect, being his opponent in ability previews.) We already have hints that he could be a cosmic player. He's a monster, not a human. Making him a threat of larger scale ensures that he is meaningfully different from the other voidborn. In terms of legitimate world ending threats we have like... The Black Mist and the Void. In terms of individual champions we have Aurelion Sol and maybe Brand/Ryze if armed with the stashed world runes. There's not actually a champion who wants to end the world and has the power to do it. The watchers want the world to cease to exist because they wish to cease to be aware of existence. Chogaths motives, and thus his actions in pursuit of ending the world, differ. Yorick and Senna both want to end the Black Mist yet they are nowhere near overlapping. We lose out on fun storytelling opportunities by being overly reductive.
: I agree with everything that you said... but here is the problem: "Imo, Cho'Gath has always been a world ending threat in the lore though, but he's just been slowly downgraded over the years due to having no content." Of course that he has been downgraded if he is unable to do what he wants to do, and of course that Riot wont let him do what he wants to do (by giving him content) if that does mean that it will end all the other stories of the rest of the lore. It would be weird if Riot released a character who is supposed to be the best chef of pancakes, but DOESN'T cook pancakes even if that character wants to. The example may be dumb, but it can be applied to Chogath, saying "well this champion can destroy the world and wants to do that" without him doing that thing, feels like he is not actually able to do the thing that he is supposedly able to do. And we could say the same about the "god" that was killed by Aatrox... The lore can tell me that it was supposed to be a "god", but the fact that it was defeated tells me that it wasnt an actual god... People ovestimates all those "god" champions. Basically, what is shown in the lore is more important than what is told... If Riot tells us that X champ can do something, but he never does that... Does REALLY matter? it is true or just a over exsaggerated legend?
I think whether or not he achieves his ultimate goal is of little importance to me. In fact, I think I would prefer it if Cho fails in the end because I quite like Runeterra. What matters is what he does on the way there and the impact he has on the world even if he fails to destroy it. Is Sauron a bad character because he was defeated? To use your pancake example: Jimmy wants to make the perfect pancakes but doesn't end up doing it. But maybe on his adventure to find the right ingredients he does a lot of other cool stuff. I think we lose a lot of important and enjoyable content when we only keep our eyes on the end result. But I also agree that with Chogath specifically there is a tendency to tell instead of showing, which was why I had my zilean/alternate world ideas to give Chogath the feats to support his title of world eater. (Also he's not been directly downgraded as much as the lore has power creeped insanely over the 10 years he's been around and he's not been brought up to match it. Because of that, with pretty much zero changes to him, he has gone from one of the strongest/scariest champions in the cast to just some voidborn)
GreenLore (EUW)
: I feel like you are projecting your own headcanon onto his old lore in some aspects. I mean, where was cho'gath ever said to be a world ending threat in the old lore? And if anything it was implied that Cho'gath could break free from the league if he had chosen to do so(as the quote about him said "woe the day when cho'gath grows weary of the league", implying that he only remains in the league for his own self interest). So "securing his freedom" wasn't much of a big deal to him. With that being said,I'd definitely like Cho'gath to be among the most powerful, if not THE most powerful voidborn, though I'd be ok with him starting off weak since a major theme for him is that he grows over time. And I also hope that Cho'gath remains intelligent. He doesn't have to talk to other champs within the lore, but it should be made clear at some point that Cho'gath is pretty intelligent.
I am absolutely biased as heck and I won't deny it haha. I just wanna get people as hyped for him as I am and I try to dream as big as possible. But I also have poked around in various places to hear what Chogath fans thought of his lore. There were comments talking about him as a general of legions of monsters (which is in his old lore). So his power wasn't entirely just in his own hands, but it was implied that his freedom would result in his leading a tide of abominations across the world. Also, prior to the addition of literal gods, Chogath was sold as one of the strongest champions in the lore. As power has crept he has been left behind. And with the watchers taking control of the voidborn he's just kind of a nobody. I guess I'm overcompensating/being overly reductive about it though. Also, this quote suggests he couldn't break free whenever he wanted. > The Terror of the Void knows what fate it would choose for Runeterra, given half the chance. Chogath definitely needs to remain intelligent. Him starting small is a great opportunity to show this since he won't be able to just smash his way through all challenges, imo. Thanks for your comment! And I appreciate the callout/fact check as well.
: Good points. Cho definitely needs to be more than an Apocalypse Maybe Soonish. Our other threats to the world have shown off what they can do. Morde made a murder empire, the Shadow Isles champs carve through NPCs in every story they're in, and we had that Ryze cinematic to show what World Runes can do. Cho likewise needs some kind of in-lore feat to give the audience a concrete example of why he's such a big deal.
Thank you! And thank you so much for proofreading my writing before I posted it! (I forgot to credit you and Taco on this post but I will edit that in ASAP) He must join the ranks of the big bois in the lore
: I think that having "world ending threats" in the game is a bad idea, because we KNOW that they will fail miserably and will never reach their goals of world destruction. And im talking about all of the champions that have that goal, not only Chogath. Having such levels of power and aggressivity is simply a problem for the lore, because the champion will simply be unable to interact with others... Aurelion Sol may not be aggressive, but he has the same problem. Villains who wants to destroy the world for the sake of it are boring. Anyways, i agree that he can’t just be a servant of the Watchers, or a slave to his instincts. He is supposed to be an intelligent monster full of malice... not a dumb beast who just cares about eating and destoying.
That's a fair opinion to have. I used to think that too but there's some stuff that I just can't reconcile. Imo, Cho'Gath has always been a world ending threat in the lore though, but he's just been slowly downgraded over the years due to having no content. It would be a pretty big bummer for me and many of his fans if his eventual VGU is just a big downgrade for him in the lore. And does a threat need to *succeed* to be frightening and powerful? His end goal may be extremely difficult, but he can still shape the world. Look at Aatrox, who wants to end all life (but mostly his own). He's killed a god! Set things in motion for several champions in the lore and left scars on the world that may never heal. Impact is valuable too, imho. Also, in Cho'Gath's case we are able to circumvent the crazy high power levels issue because he grows into a threat. Maybe right now he isn't very powerful and will grow into something stronger? Aurelion Sol starts so powerful that he doesn't *need* to compromise or interact with the world around him for the most part which is why his interactions are so restricted. Cho'Gath at least can be more of an underdog character. Also, as a Voidborn his capacity for interaction is already pretty much forced to rock bottom, so at least they can make him a badass while they're at it haha. I also agree that villains who simply destroy for the sake of destroying are boring. It's the goal that matters most (I didn't lock down a motive for Voidborn Cho'Gath here because it would require me to become more specific than I was comfortable doing. My next post where I entertain the idea of Cho'Gath as something other than a Voidborn may be something you quite like :) )
Rioter Comments
: Experimental "Max Cast Range" Changes Coming to PBE!
Kinda curious how this would go on Cho'Gath Q. Sometimes when I try to cast it at what looks like max range over the wall of baron or dragon, the big dumbo tries to walk all the way around to cast it and it can result in some potentially devastating unwanted changes in position.
: Preseason 2020 Gameplay: Rise of the Elements
I'm very excited to see how all these changes impact my ability to play Cho'Gath, the greatest champion of all time. I see a lot of %HP scaling on those dragon souls... and two possible Rift Heralds... AND A NERF TO CONQUEROR AHHHHHHHHH Looks pretty aight.
: > [{quoted}](name=Void Kaiju,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MjrsLTba,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-09-04T20:19:02.704+0000) > > Are milestones permanent or on a per-game basis? > > For Chogath, would I get a notification every time I get to 10 stacks but also get one when (if) I reach a personal best? > Or is it a flat number of notifications as I reach milestones and then one for my personal best which I will likely almost never see? > > (Also for his specific challenges, putting the multi hit on q seems more fitting to me? With ult stacks already being the most basic of basic skills, asking a little more with the q doesn't seem unreasonable.) Milestones go across games. So let's say you have "Kills with Jhin's R." It tracks those kills game after game, and the first milestone might be something like 5. Then the next might be 10 or 15, etc. until you get to a higher number for milestone 5 (let's say 50). Once you've finished milestone 5, it continues tracking all kills with his R forever, but it also starts showing you your personal best within each single game.
apologies for the late response. Do you guys think you could also have flat "per-match" milestones for eternals? My concern with only tracking personal bests is that once you get all your milestones you'll very rarely be seeing popups. Personal bests tend not to be indicative of your hardest/best played games, and instead indicate the one game you stomped because your enemy laner didn't know what they were doing. After a point, personal bests are going to be VERY few and far between. Having per-match milestones that don't vanish would provide a stellar goal to reach every match (and set a standard for what good play would be even in a harder matchup!)
: Eternals Feedback Thread: Set 1 Uniques
Are milestones permanent or on a per-game basis? For Chogath, would I get a notification every time I get to 10 stacks but also get one when (if) I reach a personal best? Or is it a flat number of notifications as I reach milestones and then one for my personal best which I will likely almost never see? (Also for his specific challenges, putting the multi hit on q seems more fitting to me? With ult stacks already being the most basic of basic skills, asking a little more with the q doesn't seem unreasonable.)
: Why is Riot being so lazy nowadays?
I love PvE modes but apparently they aren't on the table anytime soon because they're a sinkhole that just gets resources poured in with very small returns. Current events are straightforward, easy to understand, and give rewards just for playing the game. They aren't lazy, they're functional. (That being said, I have yet to buy an event pass because they never offer prestige skins for champions I play) I do miss the hype stuff we used to get. Marketing feels like it's been slashed lately, champion reveals are often minimalistic which im not a huge fan of as well.
Cloud273 (NA)
: So why did Jax and Nocturne get buffed again?
Seems like Riot wanted to make Jax counter ranged lane bullies harder. But like... the only reason ranged lane bullies are popular is because bruisers like Jax beat the snot out of everybody else in the lane... Hmmmmm
: Not Sorry, Riot. I still can't buy an Eternal even after these changes.
Honestly my problems were with the lack of value combined with the price tag. Whether or not the original announcement was supposed to be some mindgames thing to make people grateful when they changed it or not is irrelevant to me. If they go through with the changes they are proposing, and the challenges I get are meaningful, I'll probably spend some money. If they don't make a product that feels worth the price, I won't. But I won't demand that they be made freely available for everybody. If I'm okay with skins not being free to purchase, I'm okay with this. Maybe we can have eternals added to hextech at some point.
: "We’re delaying the launch of Eternals and are making adjustments based on your feedback"
Honestly, the upgrades to the system combined with the decrease in price fixes a lot of the problems I had with it. The world doesn't run on rainbows and free content. This is super extra stuff and I don't mind AT ALL spending some money if they polish the system up a bit. Lots of games give achievements for free, yes. But most of those games are pay to play, so this at worst breaks even imo.
: > [{quoted}](name=Void Kaiju,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OHgA8igA,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-08-22T14:31:33.114+0000) > > I heard the Sol mains community was cautiously optimistic about the changes? I play him and have him at m7 (not nearly as committed to him as you are, though! Cho'Gath is my one true love). Also, Mordekaiser mains had a decent amount of input on his update. Malicious Metal was literally flown in to Riot HQ to test him and provide feedback. > > Rather than never giving an explanation for these changes, Rioters are on record saying that Sol has a very low playrate because he's unapproachable and difficult to understand, whilst often being too powerful in the hands of his mains. I think they're trying to bring him to a place where there is slightly less disparity between his best and worst performances, whilst windowing his power so that he is easier to balance but his stars feel like they still pack a punch. > > What's so wrong about the changes in your eyes, if I may ask? There was a lot of mixed feedback to the situation, but the people who were concerned about the changes didn't get much insight at all, even though they asked for feedback and such. Also, the thing is that Asol may be strong in the right hands, but he isn't the one to be TOO strong or TOO weak, so to say he's a balancing nightmare is an exaggeration. Barely picked in competitive play, not picked or ban all the time, not complained about the entire community, you barely see him in the patch notes, and FINALLY Riot doesn't mention how "problematic" he is until he gets changes. It just seemed to me that these changes are for the whole league community and not for the Asol mains :) Hence I'll quote Riot Cobra: "For what it's worth - we have asked players directly questions that can give us a better idea about players' opinions on A Sol. He generally ranks super highly in terms of visuals but is among the lowest (if not the lowest) when it comes to satisfying and engaging gameplay. "
unfortunately, most changes aren't for the mains (since they often love the champion as-is). They can only take so much feedback from the one part of the community that least wants the champion changed.
Akrid415 (NA)
: Why do champs not lose stacks?
Losing stacks feels *really* bad. Cho wasn't "fine" before. He worked in some situations but his ability to lose stacks meant once you had a lot you couldn't take any risks. If he wasn't strong enough to hold on to his stacks, he vanished entirely from the meta. And if you ended up getting killed after accumulating your stacks with SIX casts of your ultimate, you then needed to try and not get killed for the next 7ish minutes whilst trying to get your stacks back. These champions don't get to be dominant in the majority of lanes as a consequence of needing to stack. They lose out on earlygame hard and have a hard time getting a lead to work with. Scaling for lategame is half the fun, and by that stage of the game most champions have answers to the infinite stackers. They're vulnerable to cc, grouping, etc.
: Thank You Riot For ABSOLUTELY Nothing...
I heard the Sol mains community was cautiously optimistic about the changes? I play him and have him at m7 (not nearly as committed to him as you are, though! Cho'Gath is my one true love). Also, Mordekaiser mains had a decent amount of input on his update. Malicious Metal was literally flown in to Riot HQ to test him and provide feedback. Rather than never giving an explanation for these changes, Rioters are on record saying that Sol has a very low playrate because he's unapproachable and difficult to understand, whilst often being too powerful in the hands of his mains. I think they're trying to bring him to a place where there is slightly less disparity between his best and worst performances, whilst windowing his power so that he is easier to balance but his stars feel like they still pack a punch. What's so wrong about the changes in your eyes, if I may ask?
Ahris (NA)
: Mordekaiser imo has no counters. Maybe im missing someone.(maybe darius? But ban him and not much problem. So as long as you can ban, wont the counter picks no longer rlly exist?)
Mordekaiser doesn't have fun vs champs like Darius and Singed who have higher sustained damage than him and the ability to force trades to start/end. He really needs to get liandries/Rylais to start having truly painful trades and before that his lane is profoundly mediocre. Cho'Gath is also a terrible matchup for him. Grab a triple dorans, rush liandries, poke through wave with E and use your W/Q to deny him passive procs and end trades. Unless he manages to chase you halfway down the lane with his passive burning you he will not be able to outtrade. You can use W silence to deny him the last-second shield and finish him off with R.
: Picking your champ before your opponent in toplane is just a death sentence for your laning phase
The counterpick "meta" is NO STRONGER than it was before the counterplay patch. Now it just applies to everybody instead of tanks and some fighters. Now the Darius, Riven, Aatrox, etc. players get to play by the same rules they force everybody else to play by instead of getting by on a strong lane phase and potent generalist power that can't really be properly countered. As somebody who enjoys tanks and has been playing Cho since well before he was "meta" (aka when he was pretty much a trash pick toplane) this has been how the lane works for ages. Lane bullies just don't get a free pass into a strong lategame anymore. Boo hoo.
Reav3 (NA)
: Fiddle and Volibear are still planned for next year. We have 3 New Champions currently in production and all ahead of both Voli and Fiddle.
Will Fiddlebear/Volisticks be the only two VGUs happening in 2020? Or is there a chance that there will be another to follow?
: Ah it's my favorite Cho'Gath player on the boards, back at it with another enticing discussion. I've gotta say your points are solid and I would love to see them implemented as to not make the game feel stagnant and unfun in the "pay to win" kind of way. Side note: Bring back rotating game modes!
Thank you :) {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
: Hi Void - thanks for taking the time to write this up! It's a really thoughtful post and I loved reading through it. I'm the Product Lead on Eternals, and I wanted to address some of the points brought up in this thread, because we talked about all of these points at length during development: * We discussed tying this into Mastery a bunch, but ultimately landed on making Eternals adjacent to the system because Mastery doesn't have any kind of RP value attached to it. It's a system that was built to be evergreen once for all champions ever, and Eternals has a roadmap that extends beyond the first set we release. We split the difference with Mastery Emote Upgrades (fun fact: we actually were unsure about this idea early in development, but players in our early playtests suggested it consistently as something they wanted). * Regarding the difficulty of certain Eternals, we want to find a happy balance that leans more towards "represents skillful play" than "ridiculously difficult". Some of the original Eternals we designed were almost never incrementing in our playtests, which resulted in players feeling like the system either wasn't working or getting very little satisfaction from the progression. We DO want to make tricky Eternals, but they need to be something that the player mostly has control over, like iiGazeii's suggestion of Jhin grenades hit after killing 3 units prior. * Regarding price, we're taking steps on this. You'll hear more soon. * For rewards from Eternals, I'd love to open up this discussion to the group: **What rewards for rekindling sets would you think would be satisfying?** BEFORE YOU ANSWER, I'm afraid I have to put a few limitations on you to make sure we don't annihilate scope / make Eternals feel good by tacking on another content type as a reward. Try to think of something that feels self-contained, and usable on the champion regardless of the skin they choose. That means no skins, no chromas. Other than that, hit me. Again, thanks for this thread. It's been really fun to read through this. I'm excited to share updates with you all soon. Cheers, Adriaan
Hello, Thank you for dropping in! **For the mastery emotes: ** -I suppose I understand where you're coming from, especially if there is the intention of expanding upon Eternals in the future. Perhaps, instead of changing the mastery emote fully, the flames+the color of the gem in your emote change color based on the Eternals you have rekindled? It would feel a little better, in my opinion, than the current floating-above-the-emote details. Unsure about how much behind the scenes work this would entail though :( -I do hope you guys consider expanding the mastery system at some point! Features that have been coming to the new client have opened up so many opportunities for progression and I've pretty much maxed out all my favourite champions already. ------ **For Difficult Challenges** -Lots of people are already providing great examples here, so I'll leave them to it. -I will, however, speak for Cho'Gath. I would love to see stuff like this (Busty Demoness had the right idea with naming them. It's fun): * **Dine and Dash:** steal Epic Monsters with _ Feast_ , * **Screamin' To a Halt:** interrupt enemy channels/combos with _Feral Scream_, * **Stepped on a Nail:** Hit multiple enemy champions with a single cast of _Rupture_. * **Tyrannosaurus Flex:** Reach 15 stacks of _Feast_ in a single match. Cho'Gath's challenges should be accessible to both tank and AP Cho'Gath players. He's a bit of a challenge to make them for since he's got very consistent effectiveness in most situations, with only a small gap between his highs and lows. -Perhaps at some point we get an option for more ridiculously difficult challenges, with rewards we can earn to show them off. I miss the old days on my Xbox 360, grabbing weird achievements in Halo and L4D and I'd be very pleased to get some of that same feeling in League! ----- **For Rewards** I'm going to just spitball a handful of them here (I've taken a quick glance at some of the other comments on the thread and will try to avoid repeating them) -I think a Homeguard trail like the one that comes with the Rainbow Poro icon could be really cool! Leave a trail of flames behind you to match your burning mastery emote, or to match the color of the Eternal you have ignited. -In a similar vein to the above, have your taunt emote be accompanied by a burst of the same flames! - Maybe a specialized hextech chest containing content related to your champion? I know HoTS has a similar system where leveling up your hero earns a chest guaranteed to grant you content related to that hero. (Although their hero-associated content is a bit more robust than what is available in League, so I'm unsure of how well this would carry over!) -Long-Term: An announcer related to the Eternal you have rekindled! You have pleased your Eternal, and now it presides over your matches. If Eternals are going to be expanded over time, this would be a super cool addition in the years to come. -Many champions still don't have icons related to them and could benefit from having some bordered icon depicting them (kinda like the special Icons that came with the chromas for the Project Reckoning event). A non-bordered version could also be made available for RP in the store. --------- Thank you for coming and inviting feedback, and thank you very much for addressing the points I brought up!
: So, you mentioned something about making quests/challenges for each champion something innovative, something risky or pertaining to a big play. That's actually a bad idea and one Riot has said they didn't want to do when first creating missions. Sometimes there's just the perfect situation to get something like that, while others it is damn near impossible depending on what they are. And those things can definitely cause people to grief and troll. For example, what if one challenge for Leona is to hit all 5 enemies with her ult? Would it actually be fun to try and get? Or would it be reliant extremely on luck and your opponents just being extremely bad? For the record, Paladins, another game I play, used to have challenges like that, such as hitting every member with one ult or killing with a very weak move made for knockback but only using the damage, not knocking them off the ledge. They were extremely unfun and insanely hard to complete, to the point where it was hard to do them even in bot matches with a stack of 5. Now the challenges are more along the lines of "Deal X damage with ability" or "Ult Y times" or "Heal Z amount in a match with this character." And while they aren't super unique or interesting, players like them a lot more because they're feasible to complete.
You make a fair point. I think there are ways to make champion-specific challenges that avoid the "hit everybody with your move" issue (although for some champions I think it's a pretty unique goal and would be a great source of bragging rights as a challenge on its own). I personally would appreciate the added challenge for doing something big and specific, provided it was purely for bragging rights. I think it would be a matter of how you present it to the playerbase. People should want to keep their eyes open for big play opportunities but not feel like they're losing out by not getting them every match. But the simpler ones you bring up are also good and can relate to making big plays without being overly reliant on specific circumstance. imagine quests for doing stuff that is excellent in, say, a teamfight. Like if Leona had one for inflicting X seconds of crowd control in a teamfight, or a dps champion had one for dealing a certain amount of damage in a fight, or with one cast of a spell.
: Level 2 ganks ruin top lane
It's not the level 2 ganks that make the lane a pain in the ass. It's that a jungler can gank top, fail the gank, retain an exp lead on you, and hang out around top for sometimes 2-3 minutes constantly threatening to gank again. And in a lane that's pretty much a 1v1 snowball fest, even if you survive every gank thrown at you (unlikely, since eventually they will just dive you and if they kill you they will take 2-4 turret plates), you fall so far behind that you're playing on the back foot for the rest of the lane. You lose all lane priority unless your jungler intervenes. Surviving one gank should be expected of you. Ward your lane. But junglers should take a very meaningful hit if they try and fail to gank the same lane 3+ times. Because the laner they're ganking against is taking hits for that despite playing properly and surviving.
Midg3t (EUNE)
: One thing you didnt mention here but it bothers me is the pricing. Atm it's 860 RP. Idk about NA, but here in EU if I wanted to buy Eternals I would have to buy a 10 euro in RP, which is 1380 RP. That alone is, imo, too much just for 3 stat-trackers.If I wanted to buy them I would have 520 RP leftover. What can I buy with it? Emotes? I already got a lot of them through missions, events and chests. Ward skins? Same as emotes. Keys/chests? Prolly the best option but I still have a chance to get trash I dont want from it, so it could be potentially cost-inefficient. Skins? Is there any skin I could get from that price that looks even remotely good? Event orbs? Same as chests. And the newest skins are usually 1350 RP. So at that point whats better to buy, 3 stat-trackers or a brand new skin?
For me it's a $10 CAD investment which is a big part of why I'm not willing to purchase them at all in their current state. I just tried to think of ways to make it worth the price tag, because the content right now is very flawed, rather than asking for the price to go down. It feels bad as a part of the mastery system which is a system I am fond of. (also usually I hold on to that extra RP because it lets me spend less money when a skin I like comes on sale!)
: i'd rather have nexus blitz,urf,new game modes. new items for league or the return of old ones. new items for ap bruisers(melee). changes to ranged favoritism. make klepto melee only. new tank items.tanks don't have any big ticket item equivalent to say deathcap for mages or infinity edge for adcs or duskblade for ad assassins;tanks have also long been over-due for a class update;bruisers/juggernauts got theirs divers were supposed to get a class update but nothing seems to have happened. make armor and magic pen less efficient. if tank update ever comes this won't be needed as much; but this will probably still end up needing to be changed. reduce damage creep.
No problem with wanting those things, but they are all gameplay content (especially the balancing bits) and probably fall under a different team than Eternals does. I'd love items for AP bruisers (I main Cho'Gath, damnit!) I'd love tanks to be made to feel better. But those are wholly separate things that should be done by wholly separate people. I'd just like Eternals not to feel so bad as the supposed next step in mastery progression.
DUDE BRO (NA)
: Just want to tack my thoughts on here as well. **The big thing that kills Eternals:** - They were designed to reward personal progress, like fitness apps. However **this is impossible in LoL**. In fitness you can always push yourself. Run that extra distance, increase the weights, do one more triple backflip. In LoL, you'll get a lucky game where you get ultra-fed, end the game with 35 kills, and that's it. You'll never achieve that again, and your Eternal tracking just ends. There's no way to push yourself and get just 1 more kill higher, or just a bit more damage than that last time. This game was your peak and you're unlikely to reach it again. So the entire concept of personal goals doesn't work, it's just, can you get lucky enough to get extremely fed, more fed than that one time 2 months ago? **An idea to fix some of them:** - Track incredibly hard goals, not simple ones. I wouldn't care to see or show off a yasuo who got 31 kills in a game once. However, if a yasuo flashed that he's gotten 27 *pentakills* total with yasuo, that's impressive. Rather than the highest amount you've achieved in 1 game or something, they should show the total amount of very difficult goals you've done. The same feeling for getting that M7. You should be like, "YES! I've finally gotten an S+", and then be able to show you've gotten an S+ 67 times, or a pentakill, etc. Not just, "Oh I only got 27 kills this game, not as good as that time I got 31".
Yup. I don't agree with the "personal bests" philosophy. I certainly think getting a personal best merits a little something, but having it as the main sell leaves the product lacking. It's why I advocate for a quest/milestone based system, with long-term goals that do eventually have a conclusion (unless they get looped with some BE rewards). Because while you cannot beat that 35 kills in one game, if you get a long-term quest that is to get 2000 kills on your champion, you can make measurable progress every game without feeling like you've peaked forever.
PzyXo (EUW)
: Riot is going crazy now
Do you know what the Neeko changes are? I've seen posts covering the Aurelion Sol and Kayle ones but this is the first I've heard about Neeko getting looked at. Also for my money the most concerning buffs are to Lucian and Ryze. They are super terrifying in the right hands and can be quite the nuisance to lane against. i have my biases though, given my champion pool those two are extra problematic for me. I don't know what's going on for Kalista but she risks skewing high elo play heavily depending on what it is (I trust their judgement here and hope it does make her more satisfying to play, she's one of my handful of Mastery 7 champs and I'd love to enjoy her again!)
: I really like this analysis! Thank you for your thoughts! fwiw this is the type of dialogue that initiates change, not saying change is guaranteed I'm not on the Eternals team, but well thought out arguments on things is a great way to open dialogue about something like this :D. Mad props! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
I gotta say, seeing you come on the boards and being active/replying to threads today (especially the one about Eternals) prompted me to decide to get my thoughts in order, since I knew at least for the time being the boards were being looked at so there was a chance I could be seen through the tide of very angry posts. So thank you for helping break the silence on the boards! I didn't expect to get a Red comment on it. I'm very happy to see you here! I hope you have a lovely evening.
  Rioter Comments
Reav3 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=N1C Jeddy017,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=u95tmZGx,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-08-15T18:26:38.750+0000) > > By non-humanoid, do you mean something that is more than just a cat? yes
Is it two cats? --- Or the moth voidborn that everyone wants but doesn't know it yet??
: Great summary! I just have a few small nitpicks. > Rek’Sai is, like Vel’Koz, absolutely bloody huge, being bigger than a house. That's exaggeration. She has been described as twice the size of the protagonist of her color story, but that's far from the size of a house. > What exactly this thing is isn’t explored further in the story, but she arranges it in to a pattern and then sets it between burrows, indicating it’s either important to the birthing of Xer’Sai or potentially Rek’Sai creating a rift of some kind. I think it's made quite clear that Rek'Sai is creating a Void rift, as the protagonist of her story is able to sense the Void through the pattern. > Kassadin’s most recent story appearance is in “Whom Does the Desert Know?” where he directly fights against Voidborn in the cavernous depths below Shurima. Not much happens in the story It's easy to miss, but this story is crucial for the fight against the Void since it reveals another way to fight the expanding Void caverns than just starving them. Kassadin discovered that the caverns themselves have hearts that can be destroyed and is one of very few people alive with that knowledge, as confirmed by Scathlocke[ here](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/rv0QUomN-new-kassadin-story?comment=00030000). Yet he isn't intent on sharing this knowledge, even though this information is incredibly significant.
Rek'Sai is described as twice the** height ** of the character in her story. Her posture is low to the ground. But we also hear her tail is "many times the size of an alligator." A quick google search says the average size of an american alligator is 4m. Several implies at least 4x that (since otherwise we'd have a couple or a few used as the descriptor) which puts her tail alone at a minimum of 16m in length. Her body itself is probably the same length again, putting her at an impressive 32m long at a minimum. So house-sized doesn't seem like too much of an exaggeration. For the second point, yeah it seems like a Void rift I agree. But since that is not *explicitly* stated, I can see why Sharjo left it ambiguous. For the Kassadin story, good catch on the big Void hearts in the caverns.
Sharjo (EUW)
: TL;DR Lore: The Void
Bless your beautiful soul
: Well done. Very interesting post and theories indeed
: > [{quoted}](name=Void Kaiju,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=eFP3Fho7,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-08T20:09:15.529+0000) > > **Now**: Voidborn as a species are pretty cool. Most of them are _cool_... You know, because they are frozen! Get it? Frozen! Like the Watchers! {{champion:127}} Okay, now i leave.
I can't believe you'd do me like this on my own thread
: another great post from our resident Void Scholar
{{sticker:galio-happy}} <3
: Kayn and Rhaast should pull a We Are Venom
B-but if they both win, how will the greatest line in league ever be spoken?? "IT'S ALL RHAAST NOW!!" More seriously, given how unapologetically evil Rhaast is I'm not certain he is even capable of coexisting with Kayn. They have no need for symbiosis. I think the best possible outcome is Kayn manages to mostly overwhelm him but we get to keep Rhaast awake and talking. They get to keep their bond, Kayn gets to progress his story, and we don't have Rhaast riding off into the sunset intent on killing it.
Rioter Comments
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=50CaliberHecate,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sF52ovFt,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-02T00:34:18.418+0000) > > Agreed. It'll totally work well, along with how Vayne's visor does hers! Difference is... Vayne's skin is a LEGENDARY. Warwick's is not.
Tbf, her legendary ADDED an overlay, whilst Warwick already has an overlay on his W ingame. It would be more of a particle update than an addition in this case, which fits for most modern skins below legendary.
: A actual look at what can be done to make Treeline draw in more players
your post is kinda saying they should be updating the map as new champions come out if they don't fit in TT which is like... a huge amount of work for a gamemode that barely pulls in 1% of the population in most regions. What you suggest takes a boatload of work from art and animation teams and requires a complete overhaul of the map. That's completely not a justifiable amount of effort to put in, unfortunately.
: > [{quoted}](name=Void Kaiju,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=qYcmzkom,comment-id=0021,timestamp=2019-08-01T14:55:58.018+0000) > > OP doesn't have a single match on their match history. They aren't even playing the game right now on this account. I suspect, STRONGLY, that if we were to see their main account (if this isn't it) we would be hard-pressed to find matches on TT which they so zealously defend. You want variety? Perhaps actually playing the game would be a good start. Based on what I'm seeing, they aren't losing a player. They've already lost you so your opinion here doesn't matter anyways. Just gonna point out that this isn't my main account, I do play TT every once in a while and only used this one because I felt like mentioning Morrowind at the end for no reason since I love that game. Now I got better things to do than answer a wall of text with another wall of text when everything I could want to say has already been mentioned in the thread earlier. Also saying that NB was promoted as much as TFT was is being straight up delusional.
You have a comment on this post criticizing somebody for only addressing one of your points. And now you have one saying you refuse to respond to a comment which tries to look at all of them. Fun guy.
: I've never seen a company more dishonest and disconnected from their playerbase than Riot
And people wonder why Riot doesn't take the boards seriously. The title is overblown and frankly foolish. You would need to have literally zero understanding of the game industry to think riot is the worst of the worst in game companies. They go well above and beyond the call of duty in a lot of ways. They have no obligation to share ANY information with you, believe it or not. They could always ghost the community like bethesda has for Anthem. Would probably make their lives easier. OP doesn't have a single match on their match history. They aren't even playing the game right now on this account. I suspect, STRONGLY, that if we were to see their main account (if this isn't it) we would be hard-pressed to find matches on TT which they so zealously defend. You want variety? Perhaps actually playing the game would be a good start. Based on what I'm seeing, they aren't losing a player. They've already lost you so your opinion here doesn't matter anyways. This seems to me like a classic upvote bait thread intended to latch on to the outrage about the loss of a mode the vast majority of people here didn't play more than 10 times in the past 3 years. ------------ But for the sake of conversation, let's break down the post despite that. > You shoved TFT down our throats and hyped it like there is no tomorrow, then act like keeping it permanent was an unexpected event. Even if it would have utterly failed, you would've kept it anyways, you never introduced it just to test the waters like you did with NB, you put it live for good from the very beginning. You never gave NB that kind of chance or treatment, even though from what I've personally seen, the feedback for it was overall better than for TFT even if apparently the popularity didn't follow, the ratio was there. TFT is massively popular. Massively. Don't act like it was just 100% going to stay. We have plenty of evidence that they have no problem pulling gamemodes when they fail. TFT did not fail. It's got a healthy streaming community and a consistent playerbase in a way that Twisted Treeline NEVER EVER had. They gave Nexus Blitz the exact same kind of treatment. They hyped it, the did balance changes for it and bugfixes for it during its run. It didn't pull the numbers they wanted as a company which needs to make a profit so they didn't make it a permanent facet of the game. Don't mistake the boards or your friend group liking Nexus Blitz as some evidence for its popularity. For most people it was a fun distraction at best, not something they were interested in doing for a long time. --- > The only reason TT has been deserted is because you didn't care for it. For one, I've always wanted to play TT, but I just didn't because I know they is absolutely 0 balance. You never gave it a chance, either. And neither did you toward Dominion. You gave TFT more love in a week than you have TT in years. You have no casual friendly mode where you can actually pick your champion. TT didn't attract players even when Riot updated it in 2012. They stated that the playerbase didn't go up for that mode. They sunk loads of resources into it with zero payoff. Of course they aren't going to suddenly start bending over backwards for it. It was deserted even when they did care for it. I actually play TT from time to time, and I can tell you that unless you play the hell out of it and get decent MMR you aren't going to be encountering much in terms of funnel strats. in maybe 40 matches of it over the last 2ish years I've faced that one time. So save your excuses for not playing the mode. Secondly, based on your OWN admission, TT already wasn't a "casual friendly mode" if you went in and were so concerned people would be tryharding and using funnel strats in it all the time. --------- They care about ARAM because it has a playerbase. In terms of not keeping ARAM bans? Idk on that one. I liked them and hope they get put in permanently and I'm not sure why they haven't. But that hardly necessitates the level of self-righteous rage in your post. Also, you don't need to like TFT. But it IS popular. Your opinion is irrelevant, especially since you're so determined to quit anyway. Why should Riot care at all about what you have to say? Because 100 salty people upvoted this thread without looking at the contents because they are angry a mode they seldom played is vanishing? People are allowed to be upset that Twisted Treeline is going away. It's a bummer. There's a lot of cool art and resources sunk into it that I'll miss being able to see. But threads that try and manufacture some evil corporate conspiracy about it are ridiculous.
: If the Void is inspired by Lovecraft and Geiger than I'd say their current motivations are perfect. The machinations of Lovecraft especially are so terrifying because their motivations are unknowable - a gap in understanding between humanity and the occult leaves out any possibility for compromise. The Watchers have only known silence and our existence is unacceptable to them the Voidborn are instruments of their will further removing us one step from them. It's actually perfect the way it is imo. Having the Voidborn be autonomous or sentient and question their existence or their masters moves the whole thing towards a "woe is me" scenario that I really don't care to see explored
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the eldritch and I love HR Giger's work (RIP). But the Voidborn are not Cthulu, the closest analogue we have to that are the Watchers and they should *rightfully* be left as mysterious and indescribable. The Voidborn are the attempts of a foreign power to replicate life for their own ends. Ends which are very understandable: bring reality screaming to a halt. In that sense, the Voidborn, whilst their minds are completely different from our own and everything about their physiology is alien to us, are not beyond our comprehension. The Voidborn have already been characters, and reducing them to tools takes away from what their players like about them. What's scarier and less common: Big Bad makes legion of mindless baddies to swarm the world as their personal hive army in a way 100% the same as the Zerg/Tyranids OR: Big Bad floods the world with uncontrollably spreading life that not even it is fully in control of, because no matter the results it sees its victory as inevitable. Some catered to more specifics ends but most sent simply to bolster the corruption and create further destruction. Why would it do this instead of strategy? Maybe it is strategy. Watcher minds are not like our own. Why would something completely isolated from everything we associate with reality decide to copy insects when they start reconstituting matter? Voidborn are made for an immediate goal, and if they survive that immediate goal then their existence just... is. ------ Lastly: assuming autonomy leads to self pity humanizes them too much. Autonomy merely leads to decisions made for the self. It leads to the ability to set long-term goals. Those goals are informed by their status as outside of, beyond, or beneath the natural order. Voidborn have no reason to be loyal to their creators, they have no concept of loyalty. They aren't human, social connections and a sense of kinship are foreign concepts. They likely only see one thing: their personal gain. When a Voidborn becomes sentient it likely becomes aware of the many, many obstacles it faces in a world that doesn't want to be eaten. Voidborn has to eat to live, thus it reaches a conclusion. Devour everything and reshape it to their own needs, become the apex predator, understand it completely. None of those involve "woe is me." It's simply about an alien mind coming to terms with its place in a world that it isn't supposed to exist in and then trying to dictate its own place.
SEKAI (OCE)
: TLDR we need a anti-hero void champ who is basically the opposite of Zac. Yes please. That said, I don't think all void champs should become self aware. They can stay a part of the hive just fine, or even be conditioned to serve the hive in a pseudo individuality (mindless drones have a limit on useful they can be, the void may try to get around this by producing what's basically zealot soldiers who have certain degree of individuality but the bottom line is still to serve the hive), provided it's interestingly explored. I don't think void champs need to be able to be related to by the players, given their theme I think it's better if their characterisation provides a sense of "I am a soldier of hive" or at least comes back to the hive in some way as a contributor being the main fantasy. We just need 1 void character who is basically a mistake to have full individuality (and survived), and then we can tell all sorts of interesting story with them.
I wouldn't say that I want a Void hero, at all :P Kai'Sa already straddles that line too much and she's a hot mess. I want properly written, unique monsters. Still evil, but not evil "just because." Voidborn probably aren't an actual hive, and with characters like Kai'Sa and Kha'Zix we can see that aberrations who do their own thing exist. Rather than have Voidborn be custom made as leaders with, as you put it, "pseudo-individuality" wouldn't it be better to have it be a sort of natural selection where the leaders emerge by their own merit? It would set it apart from the done to death monster hive with custom build monsters for each role and make the Void its own thing. Every Voidborn is an individual, but together they form the chaotic mass that is the Void, and only those with the strength or intellect manage to rise above the throngs of mindless creatures. A parody of life from outside of it rather than a proper mimicry. Natural selection amped up to 11. Because right now, the "hive" is not and has not been the fantasy of Voidborn characters. It would be something imposed on characters people started to like. Cho'Gath was a conqueror, a GENERAL. He rose above the rest himself and devoured worlds with his armies. He wasn't a part of a hive, he worked for his own interest and had a legion of other voidborn under his thumb. And he had intellect, which the current rank-and-file Voidborn we have seen lack entirely.
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Void Kaiju

Level 233 (NA)
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