: tbf he doesn't even use the ult to kick people into his team anymore, just uses it as an execute its kinda sad
Thats because Lee can now build full damage and not be punished for it. He doesnt fall off against anything that isnt tanks or juggernauts.
: Lee is fun to watch but kha and rengar? Would rather watch {{champion:57}} and {{champion:36}} slap eachother around in toplane
Lee ''outplaying'' an Ashe by doing the most repetitive play ever isnt fun anymore.
Antenora (EUW)
: No, Mages are not "leaving mid lane" at all. Using u.gg as my source, here is the top 15 mid laners in Patch 9.14 https://i.gyazo.com/89465c06ba91ef6e2eea85e7a8b3ea75.png 7/15 are AP Mages.   Would you like to know why AD Assassin's always pop off in Silver? Mid Laners seem to be allergic to buying {{item:3191}}. Seeker's Armguard when stacked provides enough armor to defend you against the Lethality on 2 full completed Lethality items for the entire game. {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} will scale throughout the game to provide a total of 39 armor penetration at level 18. Seeker's provides 45 armor for 1,100 gold and 30 farm (which doesn't take long considering most mages have giga waveclear) {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} is 5,800 gold worth of items.   {{champion:101}} just does what {{champion:115}} can do but 10x better. Why would you ever pick Ziggs if you can pick Xerath?   The only thing Ziggs has going for him right now is his Tower execute ability. He's outclassed in poke by champions like Xerath, Lux etc. He's outclassed in waveclear by champions like Xerath, Anivia, Morgana etc.
Ahri is way too close to AP assassin, same as Zoe. Malz is literally, even after massive nerfs, one of the few remaining anti-assassin picks. Vlad is an AP fighter that is being played mid specifically because assassin meta. Cass was literally buffed so she could survive assassins a bit better. That leaves Lux and Morgana, with Morgana also being a strong anti-dive and Lux just being overtuned because lol skins. Also, way to hide the pickrates! Because Zed is so banned yet still has several times the pickrate of most ''mage'' midlaners. He has close to 10 times the pickrate of Morgana, 4 times the pickrate of Cass, double that of Malz/Diana/Vlad/Lux. _**Literally the only mages on the top 15 of midlane are the few mages specialized on countering Zed, or AP fighters that can survive Zed. **_ {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}
: Get ready everyone (Patch 9.15)
Karma support nerf with no Mid karma compensation buff is just stupid. Just re-rework Karma already.
: > [{quoted}](name=Voluug13,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=molVGJGB,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-17T20:11:10.233+0000) > > Actually, they dont want counterpicks against their favored champions. For example, Zed is can counterpick but no one will allowed to counterpick him. Every single Zed counterpick has been nerfworked over the years. Only true counterpicks vs zed is now malzhar and lissandra due to their ult nature. But hold on now zed got edge of night /qss item now he's pretty much a OLAF ult invalidating aka insulting to their ult CC. He turns into a tank assassin due to the amount of steps needed to nullify edge/qss and it doesn't help that it's on a 40 second cool down either.
Malz and Liss really arent anymore. Before they depended on bursting them down hard and deny them at every turn, in exchange for low adc access. But now after a ton of damage nerfs they are glorified peel for the ADC. Malz cant burst any AD assassin anymore because of his overall nerfed burst damage, Zed can izi counterpush Malz because of visions nerfs + oneshotting minions on a low cd energy aoe skill + absurd anti-battlemage itemization and runes on the AD assassin side.
: > [{quoted}](name=Voluug13,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=00000000000100000001,timestamp=2019-07-17T19:16:59.622+0000) > > Wasnt counterpicking a bad thing? Who THE FUCK said that?
Riot and every hypermobile champion main.
: because they dont want skill to exist and/or counterplay. instead make counterpicking king
Actually, they dont want counterpicks against their favored champions. For example, Zed is can counterpick but no one will allowed to counterpick him. Every single Zed counterpick has been nerfworked over the years.
nm1010 (NA)
: Not doing a large overhaul on their code in nearly 10 years is likely what caused this. They touched the really old stuff (death recap) and broke a hundred things they didn't even know were related to it. People have joked about spaghetti code for years, now we actually get to see just how cobbled together it really is.
I had this issue 2 months ago where I installed the newer driver for my graphic card and LoL could just lose it's shit and say I was using a cheating software. It was just the video driver. I had to reinstall the whole game and deletea bunch of leftover hidden for the game to stop screaming wolf for having idk, the calculator app open.
: There is no coherency in your categorization. Firstly the term control mage/zoner is obsolete since most mages do the same thing, they zone. Syndra and Viktor are a lot stronger than the other picks you mention and they get picked every now and then in competitive. If it wasn't for Azir being the optimal mid mage they would be seen a lot more. Lissandra was a terror up until the spring split after which she was nerfed to the ground, it doesn't have to do with assassins being strong. You are comparing mages, the strongest overall class, with assassins, the weakest/second (?) weakest class in the game. And why not talk about control mages that dominate the game like Lux, Azir, Zilean and Taliyah. The very existence of zoning mages is what makes juggernauts nonexistent in the game. The strength of AP items right now gives mages the best shred in the game and since most juggernauts are reliant on facetanking they just get kited, CC'd and rendered useless by mages in fights. Assassins are the single most obsolete class in the game. There is literally ONE all around viable assassin right now, that is, Akali and that is primarily because of the early clock/hourglass not affecting her so much since she is a skirmishing assassin. The rest do not constitute optimal picks over any good mage in any kind if situation. Let's compare, Pool of viable Assassins: Akali, Zed (barely and only in theory, hourglass destroys him). Pool of viable Mages: Syndra, Viktor, Zilean, Lux, Azir, Taliyah, Leblanc, Zoe, Neeko, Rumble, Lissandra (albeit very situational), Ryze, Elise, Sylas, Vladimir. And now that my rant is over, I have to say, I agree with the gist of your post, just not the specific examples. It's bitterly true that some mages have been left to rot in the gutter. Ziggs, Xerath, Annie, Brand, Veigar, Vel'koz are the ones that pop up in my head immediately. And it's sad because if you strip their kits down they are centered around the same idea as those of other viable control mages. It's just that riot doesn't want to deal with refreshing their kits and numbers so that they can compete with the rest of their class. It's a problem of inter-class instability, not a problem of mages being weak as a whole.
< Syndra, Viktor, Azir, Taliyah < Viable {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}} Also Vlad and Rumble are toplaners and barely see play vs assassins. Rumble barely qualifies as a ''mage'' in the first place.
: > [{quoted}](name=AFK at Keyboard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-17T14:30:06.958+0000) > > A diamond Syndra main personally taught me how to play her, I fucking love her, and she's still trash as hell. > > When I can for all rights outplay and win lane against a Talon or Kat and still get shit on, she's trash. > > Fat lazy cat is also fat uninformed cat ): It's a Talon/Katarina. Why WOULDN'T they shit on you eventually? You're not buying more than 45 armor, nor are you even looking at Banshee's, but it takes 60 armor/33 MR to nullify an AD/AP pen build, respectively. The point of Syndra is to win lane and close out *before the late game.* If you aren't doing that, you're doing it wrong. You're not entitled to a clean late game because you won early.
> It's a Talon/Katarina. Why WOULDN'T they shit on you eventually? Wasnt counterpicking a bad thing? If you ~outplayed~ your opponent you should win anyways. Thats why Riot got rid of most assassin midlane counterpicks... Oh wait, it was an entirely onesided process, yeah, forgot.
Velasan (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=AlterMordred,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-17T10:13:40.793+0000) > > Pretty sure I hear mages make the same complaint when a 6/1 zed one shots the ludens echo Orianna but go ahead and downvote me As someone who has been on both sides of that argument and is a mage player... that's not what anyone has complained about. The current complaints to date are that there should be at least one other AP armor item to choose from, that there are no anti AD shields compared to magic shields, and that Lethality existing forces you into building early armor over anything else just to survive, and that there is an abundance of anti magic defensive itemization to choose from at relatively cheap cost. Usually it's that hexdrinker {{item:3155}} is not comparable to arm guard{{item:3191}} which is true enough. Then in runes you also get null orb while there is no anti AD equivalent. In summary, just that the match up favors AD assassins due to the current meta. Not their kits or necessarily even the way they work, but more from itemization and rune choices. A fed anything will kill another champion. Pretty much what the game is about, and why it loudly announces it every time someone dies.
Also it doesnt help that a lot of midlaners that were assassin counters have been nerfworked or are outright weak. Malz now barely counters assassins (and Fizz will laugh at him once those PBE changes happen) because his shield is awful to counter all-ins and his burst doesnt exist (and most assassins can oneshot his voidlings because manaless aoes). Swain is now barely existing. The list goes on. Riot outright deleted bad match-ups for assassins while allowing them to hardcounter half or more midlane.
: > [{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-17T04:15:32.565+0000) > > "B-but her ult killed me in one shot when she was 8-0! Broken champ!" Pretty sure I hear mages make the same complaint when a 6/1 zed one shots the ludens echo Orianna but go ahead and downvote me
I dont think thats an issue. Except when Zed does it without his ult, just duskblade, a Q and some AAs. Which I see all the time, even when his opponent is on equal terms of gold.
: While I agree with your statement, and don't like RIOT's inconsistency I do think these are 2 different cases. TL;DR: both champions aren't very strong right now, but they aren't in very dire spot and buffing Jhin isn't as risky as buffing Viktor The thing about Jhin is that he is quite simply outclassed by other ADCs. He isn't as strong late as some hypercarries and even though he is strong in lane, he still lacks power to be considered a bully like Lucian or Cait. What RIOT is trying to do, is make some distinct difference between jhin and other carries, as such they improve his catching tool to be of better quality, so as to amplify a certain strength. If you look at Viktor, his problems are quite complicated. Since he has been changed to a control mage from a burst mage back in the day, he wasn't really a big deal if you disregard his sudden appearance in the top lane after klepto buffs. Viktor is outclassed by other control mages, since he isn't strong early but his scaling and range aren't great, champions like Azir or Corki with similar power curve, but overall bigger powerspike in mid to late game, and considerably more safety are just better picks for late game. For the early game there are plenty of picks better than him in the middle. Regarding Viktor in the top lane, he is outclassed by the likes of Neeko and Kennen, who are just perfect bullies with great opportunities for scaling. However, what I think is in RIOT's mind is the fact that he WAS a very big bully and powerful control mage. His kit is very problematic, because ramping up his damage might cause him to be too safe with the ammount of utility he has. Statistics don't show that but every once in a while there is a match with viktor who decides to go defensive route, and isn't behind. Due to his utility he can still be very potent threat that can't be killed by anything other than burst. What I think should be done is just focusing on one viktor, so either a good utility based bully on the top (and in that case you just increase his early game potential) or a powerful mid to late game control mage in the midlane (in which case RIOT should decrease his mobility and shield from his Q, while increasing his damage output and potentially range). Otherwise Viktor is in this awkward spot, where RIOT can't buff him in any way, because of fear on how it will impact the other role, potentially making him spike too high in said role
I think that also Viktor has been mobilitycreeped. As of right now, his best hitting spell is his E, but its severely annoying to use on this hypermobile assassin mid meta, so he ends up with an ineffectual E and a nerfed Q. I still maintain that the main reason why Viktop was a thing its because his Q is reliable on top of being a great anti-melee skill, which doesnt get much use in midlane because of the nature of champions that play there: either he gets bursted trying to get into range or he has to enter into some assassin's closegap range and dies to an all in. Which goes back into your point that he was designed kinda messily, probably a remnant of back when champions werent pidgeonholed into a single lane, and needs some kind rebalancing to put him into one direction.
: Oh, by no means. I just think it’s annoying that she does like 3/4 her damage while quite literally being untargetable. Of course, if you just explode her carry, she’s dead. But that involves breaking through her healbotting first.
3/4 her damage being a weak poke and AAs with her pitiful starting ad? Soraka can outburst and out-dps a Yuumi.
: > [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F4ztpt1j,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-07-15T23:20:23.169+0000) > > the problem is riot severely overtunes the numbers of high skill champs for some reason...which is honestly just bad design...i can understand giving riven a bit of a dmg edge over say...diana....but right now its ludicrous....riven is doing 500 dmg level 1 with a single combo..which she can pull off within 2 seconds because of her animation cancelling, she does have counters, but as of right now...riot needs to be a little less generous in terms of numbers on high skill champs i dont play riven so idk if this is a dumb thing to say but would removing animation cancels for her make fix the problem?
Yes it could, but bonbon or whatever his name and his troupe of fanboys will murder you in your sleep.
: Oh no, you can dodge the Q, and it's quite funny when you do. But in order to do so, you need to time your DDOS correctly on the enemy team. xD (Seriously though, Yuumi needs to have like 600 ping, or her adc/attached target needs to run away from you and cuck her range. Only other way to dodge it is to run between your minions and eat her adc's combo instead.)
I mean sure, but thats not _burst_. Lets not call her a burst mage when she oh so obviously isnt.
: Except {{champion:84}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:432}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:203}} {{champion:76}} {{champion:142}} exist, high skill champs that aren't overtuned. On the other hand, some of the most overtuned champs atm are completely brainless: {{champion:82}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:131}} Lee has a big pickrate because he's fun to play. Vayne's stats aren't out of line.
TK is only overtuned early on, he drops like bricks after 15min, so more that overtuned he is mis(?)tuned. Morde is supposed to have stronger numbers that hypermobile heroes, if he was numerically tuned at the same level that hypermobile tops then there isnt a point of picking him or any juggernaut. And Diana has higher numbers to make up for the fact that her itemization is mediocre and she has no escapes. Why even pick her if someone safer has equal or better numbers?
Xavanic (NA)
: the problem is riot severely overtunes the numbers of high skill champs for some reason...which is honestly just bad design...i can understand giving riven a bit of a dmg edge over say...diana....but right now its ludicrous....riven is doing 500 dmg level 1 with a single combo..which she can pull off within 2 seconds because of her animation cancelling, she does have counters, but as of right now...riot needs to be a little less generous in terms of numbers on high skill champs
Riven is so overtuned that she can one-sidedly burst down anyone that doesnt have point&click CC. If your CC can fail she will just shit on you hard.
: > [{quoted}](name=Zeppelins circus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eyEqT8Rf,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-07-15T14:34:06.098+0000) > > That is not the point. It is about the playstyle .....That´s the entire point though isnt it? Healbot raka just sat back and healed for days while rarely running out of mana while also avoiding interaction, Yuumi cant avoid any of these to work at her best. Thus she can not be healbot raka 2.0.
> Healbot raka just sat back and healed for days while rarely running out of mana while also avoiding interaction, Yuumi cant avoid any of these to work at her best. Except that the patch changes set for her basically make her an uninteractive healbot. No mana return and worse shield means she has almost no incentive to proc her passive, and thus she becomes an almost worse, in all senses, healbot that Soraka.
KazKaz (OCE)
: She's also a burst poke mage with an unavoidable Q.
ok I agree that Yuumi is a healbot but her Q damage is low at best unless she is massively fed.
: if you knew the basics of how winrate works you would know we dont just use winrates. its winrates WITH pickrates that make the stat meaningful. low winrate low pickrate overall? the champion is guarunteed weak for the current meta. low winrate high pickrate? assuming the champion is mechanically challenging, this should be normal if its ~49%. if its less then they become a candidate for a buff, although this one varies by champion. high winrate low pickrate? champion is usually too underused to make a claim for either side due to a low pool to draw stats from. but if katarina has a high winrate and pickrate, for people that DONT EVEN MAIN HER, there is a serious problem.
> low winrate low pickrate overall? the champion is guarunteed weak for the current **ladder** meta. Remember how champions like Azir and Rek'Sai were awful on ladder but staples on LCS? Yeah.
: > [{quoted}](name=JuiceBoxP,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hyRvBTPE,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-07-15T12:39:02.736+0000) > > I suppose you could name a few favorable matchups then? So zed, talon, fizz, Diana, Ekko and kassadin are all losing to ranged match up because they are melee? No. Each of these champions get dashes. Sure first few levels are hell for them. Once 6 comes.. Ziggs, xerath, lux, and many more immobile mages get ruined. Hence why most take barrier in these match ups. Only real threat to Katarina is champs like {{champion:90}} {{champion:1}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:127}}
Malz was a threat pre-rework/pre-nerfhammer. Right now Katarina can just harass him endlessly because of his mediocre skill damage early on and counterpush just about the same he can push because she gets manaless low cd aoe to easily clear voidlings.
: And the winrate went up by .16%. 1% playrate is more significant than .16% winrate.
The point is that despite the changes being touted as ''nerfs'' they resulted in, at worst, a neutral change on winrate, which isnt really explained by a meager amount of playrate lost. The minuscule increase is just the insult to complete the injure.
: > [{quoted}](name=Exin0,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=292drrqz,comment-id=00010004,timestamp=2019-07-14T21:28:19.537+0000) > > its not fundamental problem its core of rock paper scissors balance. Honestly what do you want from riot to do? Nerf every ranged champion 2 feet under? Give every melee champions tools to easily deal with ranged opponent? First will kill half of the game second will create unkilable, unpokable, unkitable terminators and all ranged chapions will be f...d because ther will be countered by everyone (by assassins, by divers, by fighters, by jugg, etc.), great changes if you want kill off this game. there are two problems with this statement. 1.) rock paper scissor balance is piss poor design. no one wants to play a game where the outcome of your lane is decided in champion select. the dice happens to be stacked against you, and you have to pick your champion before your opponent 10 games in a row, get counterpicked as a result? i guess youre just not good enough at the game then. 2.) even in an environment of picks and counterpicks, the strength of those counters is still open for discussion. like a champion having an advantage in lane against another champion is fine and unavoidable, but a champion (type) being so strong against another champion (type) that that guy doesnt have a single success scenario and cant play the game is horrible gameplay. like who wants to play a game where your success is decided by your luck to pick your champion after your opponents and counterpick them for a free win? i can play a lane of {{champion:86}} vs. {{champion:122}} where the darius has a lane advantage, and i can not make a single mistake in trades with him or i will get dunked on. but i still have the possibility of outplaying darius in trades and winning lane as a result, even if its hard. but playing against champions like {{champion:43}} {{champion:126}} klepto {{champion:85}} or {{champion:17}} means i dont ever have a chance to make a play on those champions with a lot of melee champions, by myself without losing. for the same reason {{champion:223}} is absolute aids in top lane, because he straight up wins every single matchup. even when he doesnt have much above 50% winrate. his current design is atrocious and broken for a champion. way overpowered in lane, and almost useless afterwards.
> 1.) rock paper scissor balance is piss poor design. no one wants to play a game where the outcome of your lane is decided in champion select. Sadly thats just how any pvp game with classes. Like things like those are why main culture needs to die, people need to be versatile enough to have safe picks if they cant ensure a neutral or favorable lane match-up. Like I am also someone that plays a ton of toplane (both melee and ranged) and I own my mistakes of not safepicking if I am first pick on SoloQ. If you want a game with the concept of counterpicking on it then dont play a MOBA, its really that simple.
: nerfs dont fix the fundamental problem league has in melee vs. range matchups. melee champions need ways to answer this kind of ranged poke, so these lanes can become more than "can i interact as little with my opponent as possible until my jungler may or may not show up?"
Biggest issue is that ''give melee tools to survive vs ranged lane'' quickly turns into Irelia/Yasuo/Zed/Riven levels of terrible and onesided design. And then those awful designs turn into cancer matches for ''traditional'' melee top laners too. What we need is probably better early tank itemization, and/or maybe to nerf early game top laner ''hybrid'' damage (while buffing their main/lategame damage type and maybe waveclear) so that melee toplaners can actually counterbuild in lane. As of now, characters like Kennen can just lol @ early defensive itemization because on-hit magic damage and starting with Doran's Blade for constant AA poke. Of course as a whole it needs to be carefully designed and balanced to minimize off-class abuse like mid assassins completly ignoring any kind of lane weakness or to not make those items instant wins vs ranged).
Cevrad (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Ahlas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4eMOXIs,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-14T20:03:33.952+0000) > > {{champion:92}} > > Riven was really strong before patch 9.10. [According to u.gg, she had a 52.63% Win Rate on Diamond+ ranked games in patch 9.9.](https://u.gg/lol/champions/riven/build?rank=diamond_plus&patch=9_9) Riot realized she was too strong and tried to nerf her by making these changes: > > https://files.catbox.moe/4dtiu6.png > > The problem is that she is now probably stronger than before the changes. [In fact, she now has a higher Win Rate than before (52.79%).](http://u.gg/lol/champions/riven/build?rank=diamond_plus&patch=9_13) > > After the reduction of her Q cooldown, Riven now only needs about 25% CDR to be able to extend her Qs. Before the changes, she was only able to do that when she had about 40% CDR. Extending her Qs allows Riven to chain her third Q into a new series of Qs, giving Riven more damage and mobility. > > To try to fix the fact that Riven is still too strong, apparently Riot is trying to nerf Riven by buffing some of her counters: Renekton and Poppy. {{champion:58}} {{champion:78}} > > Renekton will receive a buff that will make his W destroy shields when he has 50+% fury and Poppy's W will now ground a champion if it blocks a dash. > > But is this a good way of dealing with the problem? > > For example, Renekton is considered a Riven counter, but if Riven plays well she has a chance of winning. This change will probably make the matchup much more one-sided and therefore will make it less fun. [And a lot of Renekton mains don't even like these changes as well, including high elo ones.](https://www.reddit.com/r/RenektonMains/comments/c825t2/only_me_who_thinks_the_upcoming_w_buff_is/) > > ==============================================//============================================== > > So, is there a better way of dealing with Riven? {{champion:92}} > > Here's a suggestion: this whole situation got a little chaotic because unnecessary changes where made to Riven's kit. In fact, many people think it's even more frustrating to play against her after the changes. Why not just nerf Riven the simple way? > > Just revert the 9.10 changes and simply nerf her from there, instead of trying to make changes that aren't really needed. > > When people complain about Riven, they usually say things like: > - She has too much mobility; > - She is too hard to punish; > - She has too much damage; > > Why not nerf these things a little? > > - Don't buff her Q cooldown, leave it as it was before. > > - Simply increase her E cooldown by something like 2 seconds on all ranks: From 10/9/8/7/6 seconds ⇒ 12/11/10/9/8 seconds. This would reasonably make her easier to punish, less mobile and less frustrating to play against. > > - And then just nerf her damage a bit. This can be done in many ways. For example, in patch 6.17 Riven's R got buffed because she needed more damage: > > https://files.catbox.moe/v3v4ev.png > > Now that Riven is very strong, Riot could simply revert that. Alternatively, they could make it so her passive only stack one time, instead of 3, which would punish bad Riven players that just spam Q and don't Auto Attack between abilities in low elo. > > I think those are reasonable changes that would make her more fair. > > Also, doesn't Spear of Shojin's {{item:3161}} passive makes champions like {{champion:92}}, {{champion:58}}, {{champion:24}} harder to deal with than they should be? It's nice to have an item that gives 20% CDR and a lot of AD, but changing the passive to something less problematic would probably make them more fair too. She has a higher win rate because the people who are actually good at her are the only people playing her.
Her playrate went down by just 1%, it quite literally went from 12.7% to 11.6%. So no, the amount of playerbase lost is not really something like the Malz rework pickrate raise and posterior nerfbatting dropping it to pre-rework %s.
: > [{quoted}](name=RavenMagus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T8eXlPU5,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2019-07-14T18:48:43.399+0000) > > Rengar tells you he's coming, and then he murders you anyways. Even if you know about it there usually isn't much you can do about it, especially if he's fed. It's just a sign saying "have your shop open, you're about to go back to fountain". I mean what do you do against a fed Zed or Leblanc. At least with Rengar he send you a text a few seconds before he arrives and then your team 1 shots him once he's finished his combo.
Zed, even if I fucking hate him and his ult is a point&click mess, has an ult that is way more counterplayable that Rengar's when in a group or even alone.
: > [{quoted}](name=FSRER,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wE2Z2WxY,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-12T12:42:22.947+0000) > > No. Tank items do not need more stats. AD and AP items need stats removed. Especially AP Preach my dude, upcoming on 9.16 Rod of ages price reduced to 200 gold to help mages scale faster in the fast paced meta!
Most mages dont buy RoA, specially the meta or strong ones like Lux or Ahri. RoA buff is like, a buff to niche or underpowered mages (except Ryze but Ryze is... _Ryze_).
: You know what would allow junglers their 200+ EXP camps and megacarry champion pool?
I think a biggest issue is that right now the junglers with best ganks (ganks that can even outright bypass warding thanks to mobility) are the ones that also have great or best clear time/safety. We couldnt need all those jungle exp nerfs (that hurt like 80% of jg champion pool) if they actually nerfed ladder meta junglers for once that have insane ganks at level 2-3 and the safety/speed to do so constantly.
FSRER (EUNE)
: At platinum and higher, you ping that you have ward on cd as support and the adc will most of the time ward
Really on my experience climbing is that outside bronze, a lot of adc on SoloQ ward decently (_in lane_), some even buy pink wards if we are dominating.
KazKaz (OCE)
: Wait, but Zilean is really good though.
I mean Zilean is good, but he has been in need of a VU or really any attention related to that for like 6 years by now.
: The Fizz update on PBE will make many champions useless against him
The change is absolutely stupid. That is a no counterplay mechanic that just gives Fizz a free lane versus any DoT champion, even those meant to counterpick him in the first place, like Malzahar. But it does nothing to change whatever makes him bad compared to Zed/Talon (hint: it might be that AD assassin itemization is fucking overpowered). Might as well just give him a free Adaptive Helm early on.
huhndog (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ggplayer12,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EU5WjGA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-10T17:27:33.195+0000) > > nerf tank dmg sejuani and tahm and gragas doo too much damage for their tanky and mobility Unfortunately tanks are only good in this meta if they can deal damage. Tanks aren't in a good place rn either. A lot of tanks can't contribute anything because they get bursted down too fast defeating the purpose of being a tank. There is already too much damage in the game especially in this assassin mid meta (zed and talon). An assassin is meant to be high risk high reward, but instead they are a safe pick because of their mobility and base tank stats.
Also Zed is a safe pick because of the fact that he gets long range waveclear on energy while having a passive that makes it almost impossible to lose cs last-hitting under his tower.
: when was the last time pros played him? fizz for most of his existence is just pub stomp
What does that have to do with anything? OP mentioning a very valid concern doesnt mean ''this will be OP on OWL!!!1!''. What pros play and what ladder plays have very little coincidence, for example Riven.
: Zed is a lot more fun than Talon. Talon is pretty braindead compared to Zed lul Btw that is just my opinion, I suck on both champs. But I like to play Zed a lot compared to Talon
No champion that has mana is more braindead that Zed. Its factually impossible, just for the fact that you have to actually manage a limited, slow regenerating resource.
: Except they did, what are you on?
They did, but none of the ''ninjas'' we have on lol are actual, historical ninjas.
Jaspers (EUW)
: We still have 4-5 champs who refer to summoners. Malphite's should be more booming too. Plus Nami could do with some that's not fish/water puns.
Are you scareeeeddddddd..... Summoner????????
: I think it becomes Unhealthy if they become the dominate one. There always has been mages top to some degree. With , Cho, Singed, Some malphites, Galio, hiem, teemo, ekko etc.
None of the champions you mentioned are mages.
CytheGuy (NA)
: Why not just rebuild the game modes from scratch?
Eedat (NA)
: After cinderhulk was nerfed and gromp smite buff got hit at the same time cinderhulk meta was over? After those changes, ***it was no longer cinderhulk meta***. I dont understand what you're trying to say. You're trying to say "after cinderhulk meta, cinderhulk meta wasn't that bad"
It was still CH meta even after the first nerfs because it was strong but overall balanced. CH meta only ended when the juggernaut meta happened and Riot gutted both Sejuani and CH into unviability, to the point that for a time the meme became ''better nerf sejuani''/''X got sejuani'ed''. Oh yeah, and general tank item gutting because Juggernauts abused those to no end.
Eedat (NA)
: It was fun for absolutely nobody BUT the cinderhulk users. Literally build full tank and out damage everyone in the entire game
Errr no. Not at all. After CH was nerfed for lane purposes, ADCs, supports, skirmishers/bruisers and mages of all kinds flourished in a meta mostly devoid of assassins. ADCs no longer were instagibbed by point&click mobility assassins, while being necessary to deal with the enemy frontline. Supports tank supports could play more freely as off-tanks to CH Tanks, while squishier supports could support the whole team instead of being shield/heal bots for the ADC. Battlemages could shred tanks so they were valuable, and regular mages could actually lane in a meta without Zed/Fizz/Talon. Bruisers could stand up to tanks and duel them even with CH, and had more build freedom Skirmishers could eventually outscale tanks, and with strong tanks they could have the spaces to do their jobs without ending up being the only frontline at all. Literally the only class that wasnt boosted by CH Meta were assassins, who were _the_ meta before that. Post-initial nerfs CH meta (up until Juggernaut update) is still regarded as one of the most balanced metas. > Literally build full tank and out damage everyone in the entire game This is really an outright lie. ADCs and battlemages saw record high averages on damage on CH meta, since you didnt have assassins instakilling them with point&click mobility. The only high damage tank in CH meta was Sejuani, who had HP scaling.
: Hey guys if you think balance today is bad, look at this
Karma had a near permanent slow+team haste. 5s duration and 6s cd. Malz could actually delete people. OG Kassadin being THE most banned champion ever.
Eedat (NA)
: Launch {{champion:5}} Launch {{champion:245}} Launch {{champion:164}} Launch {{champion:142}} {{item:3128}} {{item:3504}} meta {{item:3071}} s stacked Feral Flare Cinderhulk meta
Cinderhulk meta was fun for everyone but assassins tbh
: > [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NEsrepy3,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-25T18:15:30.904+0000) > > the tank ekko saga. Returned with Sylas tho.
I am sorry but nothing will be as awful as the Tankko Dark Times.
: As someone who plays a fair amount of Yuumi, she should not exist
> But I think what annoys me most about her is that damn q. It's borderline undodgeable "skillshot" and having to lane against it is a nightmare. Unless your adc positions correctly you will never be on range to properly aim it, and without travel time its just an autoattack that uses mana.
: I'd complain about malzahar ultimate before mordekaiser. You can kite mord in His ult, making qss an unnecessary counter sometimes. Meanwhile if you don't buimd qss vs a malzahar you lost your team the game because he flashed over a wall and pressed one button so you couldn't move as his kha zix jumped on you. If an ability FORCES you to buy an item as counterplay, it's bad design. And malznult does that. Does any other? No. Lux q? You can dodge. Nasus wither? Doesn't effect your stuns or dashes. But malz ult, is just click, and you can't move until you're dead. Do i think it's op, game breaking? No, malz isn't "overpowered" but his ult certainly needs some sort of feeling to it. Right now its boring for everyone. Both players just say "oh- malz ult." And take their hands off the keyboard and wait. People complained about Warwicks, and look! In the rework they changed it to a skill shot. Meanwhile malzahars still got the i click you die button.
> Meanwhile if you don't buimd qss vs a malzahar you lost your team the game because he flashed over a wall and pressed one button so you couldn't move as his kha zix jumped on you. That is a 2v1 tho. Malz ult alone cant kill you while the supression lasts because it now has like no flat damage at all. Unless you are have like 10%hp remaining and he has ignite, thats it. > Meanwhile malzahars still got the i click you die button. Because Malz uses his ult at the end of his combo, thats his only way to kill people at all. Because I dont know if you noticed, but Malz has no mobility and his ult has a short range, so either he walks up to you (slowly) or you dived him (which he is meant to counter).
: Isn't it still better than having any other enchanter strong? At least she has to land something, not just point-a-click shield/cc.
Didnt you know? Only Zed's point and click ult is skillful.
Zardo (NA)
: People talk about junglers getting flamed all the time but junglers are also the most toxic people in the game. Walking between camps is free flame time for minor things. Invading without priority then dying is never their fault. Dying when they got pinged off of a gank is somehow their laners fault. Scuttle is worth more than anything else in the world to them, and if you dont think it is and drop everything for them you'll get flamed all game(even if helping costs multiple times the xo and gold that scuttle gives)
I am sorry but Riven mains still exist.
: It's annoying,too, that the anti-mobility abilities (Morde ult for example) screw over immobiles even harder
Its almost as we need better skills with the grounded debuff.... instead of more point and click CC burst.
: The game would have to be coded to constantly detect what the most popular and successful builds are for the champion a player is using at any given moment. And even then it wouldn't be enough because of situations that might call for going a bit off meta against counters and the like. I'm just glad we have custom item sets. Something Riot almost didn't bring back because "not enough players use it; so, we can't be bothered".
Isnt that something similar to what is used to determine champion role pools in champion select screen anyways? It says soemthing to the effect of ''those champions were played in this role in last/this patch''.
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Voluug13

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