: > [{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IN0u2OsR,comment-id=0000000000010003,timestamp=2019-12-05T12:47:12.424+0000) > > Ah yes, how can i be so dumb? > Of course! One instance where Blizz "balances" their game makes them many times better than Riot. Not to mention the whole elitist shits who don't let "dead" classes to raid. Or after a single wipe, they immediately disband the party, forcing everyone to wait for another 30 years to queue up instead of working to a better strategy. > > One look at Blizz's own forums and you'll see there's plethora of complaints about WoW, just like there is for League. You're comparing apples and oranges here. WoW has its own set of issues and the difference between these games is that Riot's patch cadence is every two weeks while for WoW, months (which is typical for MMOs). So once a broken item/class appears, it takes months before Blizzard does something, even if its destroying PvP. Blizzard has issues, but blizzard has done very well listening to its players feed back, and making changes based on that feed back and most of the feed back was from people on the forms. Riot has a very very low track record of taking feed back from the forms. I know I can name more post's on the blizzard forms that were taken, and put into the game compared to Riot. How many post on Riot forms have been taken, and put into the game? I honestly can't even think of one. And I am sure there is one from years and years ago, but that's it. Its pretty simple when it comes to comparing the two.
> but blizzard has done very well listening to its players feed back This is a bold faced lie, as someone that played WoW for nearly a decade, Blizz NEVER listens to players unless it happened to align with that some senior dev already believed. They have outright said that they consider their games ''our (the dev's) playground'' that ''players are just invited to''. They have refused to pay attention to almost half a dozen of classes for years, treating entire classes as 2nd class players, laughed or outright lied to players of those classes. Their balance is entirely self-serving and biased, with giant gaps between performance on dps classes/specs, tailoring entire raid tiers only to their favorite classes (generally rogue and mage, lol Kil'Jaden mechanics) while some classes/specs are so underpowered or misdesigned that they are instantly rejected from raiding guilds or pugs. And this extends to other games like Overwatch as well. There is a reason FFXIV has been catching a lot of WoW refugees. Including myself.
IainG10 (EUW)
: Swain stacks most of those, and Malz, Ryze, Brand and some Heimers get several, but yeah, overall I agree. Those items should also provide a bit less health IMO as well....
Aside Ryze none of those are an issue, though. Also you cant have low HP AP items because then AP assassins abuse any item with good utility and decent AP. Remember Rylai's?
: Last time they let community judge we ended up with 63% winrate Skarner. As much as balance sucks now, boards balancing would still be way worse.
Thats inaccurate, actually. Before that patch went live, Skarner _was_ really underpowered. The issue is that Riot massively overbuffed him and then basically announced the patch for live and didnt listen to the feedback of ptr players that said that he was being shipped out grossly overpowered because Riot ran out of time.
Antenora (EUW)
: They are only buffing her to amp sales on the new skin. Like I said when Riven got buffed the same patch that Valiant Sword came out, they don't even try to hide it anymore. The issue with Karma is if they go too hard on the buffs, she becomes oppressive in the pro scene. Also, they can't "prioritize" a GU on her as there's plenty of champions who are desperate for reworks compared to her.
At this point I could say that no one except Karma is on this level of role/gameplay problems anymore. Even problem champions like Jax or Tryndamere are at worst basic yet function within themselves, while Karma has 2/3rds of her ult and some portions of her kit go completly unused because you queued for a specific lane.
: Dots are hella hard to balance, just look at Malzahar, Teemo, brand or even Darius&Talon.
Malz was actually more balanced (and stronger) when he had his power into his DoT damage so idk what are you talking about.
: > since DoT encourages passive lanes with barely any interaction past walking up and applying a DoT How is that any different than champions walking up and applying their instant damage abilities then backing off? (assuming the target isn't already dead)
Because somehow Zed waveclearing on energy from 1000+ units away is #skillfull but anyone else doing it on a much slower pace while wasting half their mana bar is braindead and freelo.
: I cant remember it for certain but in pretty sure riot doesnt like DoT too much and generally try to avoid it unless the ability is a perfect fit for the champion since DoT encourages passive lanes with barely any interaction past walking up and applying a DoT
> since DoT encourages passive lanes with barely any interaction past walking up and applying a DoT No DoT mage has ever been able to play ''passive lanes'', not even Malz who _allegedly_ has an E that instakills every minion in the game every time he uses it. ~~The truth is that Malz only became a possibly ''no interaction'' lane with his rework, before that his E damage was stronger but he still needed to AA minions with his very short range to make the DoT jump, unlike now being able to pop a minion and a cheap Q from afar, and even there its easily stopped because his damage has been centralized into his VERY oneshotable voidlings, even (or specially) by champions that Malz is supposed to counter.~~
: About Those Karma Buffs - Riot Can We Talk?
I think the underlying issue is that they obviously dont want to work much on Karma because they know that the rework was, at the end of the day, a design failure on all ends, they just dont want to admit it. So they are waiting for 2027 for Karma's turn at another rework so they dont have to use resources on a hero that is disjoined and possibly broken at a core level. Almost every proposed deep change to Karma has been met with outright disgust by the community because its often support/LCS-centered (lol at the CDR tether). If anything? I think that RE should be nerfed because its what, at the end of the day, what is holding Karma back at anything else that isnt a shieldbot. Klepto is dead, so top Karma shouldnt even be a thing now. Any potential changes could be to move around all the effects that Karma has, like moving the MS boost away from E/RE so that it can have a power budget back.
: > You could say this about any enchanter support. Janna Nami Soraka? First of all, I don't know what you just quoted. Second, yes, **Soraka** was braindead. That's why they forced her to _interact_ or literally slowly kill herself. **Janna** is constantly debated about for exactly this reason. Sit back, help disengage, do nothing else and win lane/game. **Nami** is more proactive, interactive and probably one of the fairest champions in the game. And now, that I said this: Why do you think of Karma only or MAINLY as an enchanter? Because her kit isn't that of an enchanter at all. She has ONE ability that enhances allies. Her passive doesn't even interact with it. > So that way it doesnt matter what she chooses and is overtuned no matter what she does making her even more of a braindead champ. Having three very similar choices is miles better than having no choice at all. Besides, the higher you climb, the more important nuances get. And lastly, I debate you any day of the week, that Karma was both more interesting and more healthy, when she still had damage on all mantra options. Karma's who ALWAYS mantra'd Q for damage was the single best way to spot a noob Karma.
Its clear that this person is just throwing ''braindead'' as a buzzword.
: > [{quoted}](name=EhtOstäf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qm0ArJ3l,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-01T14:43:02.079+0000) > > It is a comprehensive educational design to allow those who choose to play support to be thoughtful in their mana expenditure. Too frequently players who rely on items that generate mana spam their abilities without planning (missing too many skill shots). Removing mana regeneration on support items will eventually enhance players' skill in landing their skill shots especially the abilities that are mana intensive. > > Do I sound like a Riot's spoke-person? I've been practicing. Meanwhile Kennen, Riven and Vlad can stay 5 years on lane spamming entire combos every 10s without any punishments
Zed throws his entire basic abilities for some izi waveclears and has his energy back in like 5s.
Doge2020 (NA)
: His kit requires him to be in the middle of the fight, and the only defensive items in his usual build is GA and sometimes Bloodthirster. So he is pretty easy to lock down and kill. He has a hard time running away from enemies without flash due to the fact that his E requires an enemy minion, jungle monster or enemy champ to use. Due to him being a melee champ, most ranged champs (and some melee champs) have an easy time fighting and poking him during lane. These are some of the disadvantages that I can think of right now but there is definitely more
> His kit requires him to be in the middle of the fight, He really doesnt, he can precharge his Q gust on minions/monsters and throw it from range safety for instant engage. To the point he can easily zone out ranged midlaners while laning because he has either a long range or midrange point and click knockup that crits. > and the only defensive items in his usual build is GA and sometimes Bloodthirster. His kit is full of survivability. His itemization is full of strong items with side survivability. He has ways to instantly engage at range, and his kit is pretty much Zed 2.0 when it comes to laning safety and reliability on midlane. > He has a hard time running away from enemies without flash due to the fact that his E requires an enemy minion, jungle monster or enemy champ to use. Unless he is outnumbered he doesnt need to run out, not in midlane where he dominates most match-ups, even against those he is supposedly weak against (like vs Malz). > Due to him being a melee champ, most ranged champs (and some melee champs) have an easy time fighting and poking him during lane. False, Yasuo was designed to go toe to toe with **ADCs and supports**, midlane mages cant do much when their very own minions pose a threat to their safety, all the while Yasuo either free farms and perma-charges his Q for easy zoning (specially since his Q can be a point and click AoE knock-up that crits). Also Yasuo doesnt even have real counterpicks anymore, bulky anti-dive midlaners like Malz have been purposefully nerfworked. Any disadvantage that Yasuo might have are basically negated by the absurd amount of advantages has on midlane, he is just Zed 2.0: Infinity Blade Boogaloo in that respect.
: The range of her snare is also way too long. It's ridiculous how hard to gank a bot lane with her is because she can just throw out the snare and pop her shroud and that's immediately most gank attempts foiled. She's as aggravating to gank as Karma, except Karma is just a poke mage lacking in sustained damage and her utility is single target mostly whereas Senna's utility is multiple targets with better scaling and itemization paths.
Yeah, Karma needs to put herself in danger by staying near the enemy to root them, while Senna can just aim her skillshit and run away with her AoE invisibility field.
: Her free lifesteal only helps her as ADC. When playing Senna support I never get the life steal bonus cause I'm buying items like Umbral Glaive and Athene's, so I really see no point in her having lifesteal included in her kit. It'll only benefit her incredibly far into the game or if she builds crit items. I'd be perfectly fine with them gutting her lifesteal or removing it from her kit entirely cause she already has healing on Q.
We are discussing ADC/solo lane Senna, which is another Mid/Top Soraka.
: > [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JIAt2ebi,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2019-11-30T08:56:05.220+0000) > > I can say the same thing about Jinx, and she doesn't get a negative AS and crit modifier unlike Senna. So why is it just Senna who people want nerfed and not the other broken adc's? Because Jinx does not heal, does not shield others in teamfights, has a much inferior snare skill, and does not get to make her allies untargetable from ranged skills. Jinx's single contribution is damage, and she needs to scale up to begin with.
Doesnt Jinx also like, have to spend mana for her extra range? Just a thought.
: Zed is fine because before he's fed, he has to land skillshots to actually do damage with his ult. Lee just RQQ and someone's dead with minimal counterplay.
Almost everyone in midlane has to deal with skillshots. But Zed's are on energy so he can just waveclear and harass indefinitely with them while no midlaner currently can keep up without wasting massive amounts of mana. Zed is not fucking ''fine'' is still one of the most banned midlaners in this game's recent history purely because he gets handled the best midlaning in the game while having constant win-win interactions with almost every midlaner. He doesnt even have counterpicks anymore because the few anti-dive midlaners that we had have been nerfworked and gutted endlessly. Malz no longer can control a Zed because Zed has free laning against Malz after the rework. Neither can ANY of his previous historical counterpicks like Lissandra or Annie. Zed is currently a fucking cancer into midlane that none other assassin/assassin-adjacent can emulate. So no, Zed is not ''fine''.
Bugog (NA)
: Honestly I'm interested to see how the season shakes out if supports don't get a lot of gold. There's a certain skill involved in having an impact in fights without good items. The only things I don't like is the lack of CDR and how vulnerable we are to one shot assassins.
Certain Skill? You mean picking the supports that havent been gutted for patches on end for Riot's previous decisions about support scaling?
BlackXIV (EUW)
: I honestly don't get why rito keeps on putting down supp and jung season after season. Now they want us to fight for drakes all the time, but guess what, the drakes are controlled by midlane now because botlane and jungle were gutted in gold and experience.
Because that way they can keep specific champions on top for LC$ BIG PLAY$. No one but Lee Sin and similars are viable on this new jungle. No one but Pyke and similar high damage ''supports'' benefit from those item changes.
Bugog (NA)
: I would say quite the opposite. This is a huge nerf to mage supports like brand, lux, etc, who went frostfang > ludens > deathcap (or other expensive AP items). Now they will get 2 items and they have to choose between letting the solo laners get the money and taking it for themselves. It massively nerfs someone, while making it so that enchanters don't fall off a cliff because all their AP ratios are garbage.
Its less of a nerf because those champions have both the damage to kill and the excuse to take gold from kills since they scale with some gold way harder that any enchanter or tank. Compared to basically every enchanter or non-hook tank that was balanced around getting a decent amount of gold and nerfed accordingly, where the massive nerf means that a lot of those champions will never see beyond 1-2 items, and scale considerably worse on any game that goes beyond 20 minutes.
: Considering what they did to {{champion:136}} are you sure you want them to? They would just make him another clunky generic burst mage.
It started with Taliyah. Remember how she wasnt a burst combo mage but reddit non-mains whinned until Riot changed her into one and then nerfed her because she suddendly was TF on steroids?
: The solution would be simple but ugly. Implement a role swapping mechanic similar to champ trading, then make support items role exclusives.
Make supports item team unique. If they can put people automatically into roles they can give them a passive that enables the purchase of support items. No one buys support items unless they are broken and abusable, so no there is no loss.
DatPolak (NA)
Nerfing JG exp instead of nerfing the same 5 meta AD jungler just makes JG worse and more monotone. There is no variety, even within intended jungle champions. Right now jungle its either Lee Sin, anyone that can clear fast/safe enough to not get behind or counterjungled by Lee or you lose bot/dragons and then lose the game because Elder Dragon Buff Is Balanced.
: 650 base damage with a 200% bAD scaling point and click ult is perfectly fair and balanced /s
Kinda funny how bursty hypermobile assassins like Lee and Zed get to keep their point & click burst ults but on anyone else its Evil and Toxic.
Rαy (EUW)
: Yes, please. Tired of seeing him every game/stream. Can't even watch highlight videos anymore, because every second clip is some "insane" Lee Sin outplay showing him oneshot three champs in a row.
but arent you HYPED about seeing Lee Sin O U T P L A Y an Ashe???
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oYpZ834n,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-11-24T17:46:40.704+0000) > > Depends what nerf you're talking about. The supports you're discussing generally weren't hard nerfed until Season 5, and Ardent Censer/Athene's introduction. I still had a 72% Win rate with Sona in Plat I before that. Oh no, they were hard gutted well before hog was removed. And i mean gutted
HoG and Philo were removed at the end of S2, iirc. Support income items were added at the end of S3? I think. I do remember that the Karma nerfwork was a couple of months after the introduction of Athene's, because it was a really good item for her midlane.
: Yeah that’s why it’s the highest winrate Casseiopeia rune, even surpassing arcane comet which Casseiopeia could abuse HARD (since spell spamming lowers arcane comet’s cooldown).
Its because its the first rune that has ever been synergistic on her (every other main rune has always been dog shit for DoT/sustained mages, so no wonder its her highest winrate one), and it still doesnt really break her beyond bulling Darius and like other 3 juggernauts on toplane, since even with it she is still squishy and easy to dive and extremely mana hungry until you buy a 2nd mana item.
Bârd (NA)
: The point of a gold generation item is to generate gold. The new support items do not do that.
Its rather obvious that those changes were made with Pyke and Senna in mind, since they are about the only supports with kill pressure at same skill levels. This is a gigantic nerf to actual supports and a buff to Didnt Get Mid/Adc™ ''supports''.
: What *should* have happened is for immobile mages midlane to be given the tools they need to work against assassins, like a roaming AP item, and actual armor/AP items that aren't Zhonyas.
Seeker's has quest to even be worth the buy while Hexdrinker has a free spellshield passive (not that AD assassins even need hexdrinker/Maw nowadays when most just instawin lane one way or another). Sadly the real issue is that AP assassins are this ''ezreal'' subclass that will never be buffed because they are super popular but also super cancerous to midlane balance and can abuse literally any item with AP to become tanky on top of mobile and bursty.
: I mean, not like you can just take D Shield and second wind, build a defensive item, and freeze, forcing them to over-extend and therefore get fucked by ganks. Not like having a ranged top essentially screws over a team as they lose a potentially front-liner. Now, i won't say it's fun, but getting counter picked is never fun. The fact that there are ways to mitigate ranged advantages and clear downsides to playing ranged tops makes it balanced though.
Ganks on toplane? On this dragon-ruled economy? Not happening pal.
: Yeah the Dshield change was good, really good. It's just being offset by ranged Conq abuse and Sanguine Blade abuse currently, which will most likely (hopefully) be addressed. A lot of the ranged tops aren't autowinning lane anymore, it's really just Cass, Ryze, Quinn and Vayne who are being asses right now with Conq and Sanguine Blade. Teemo, Vlad, Trist, Jayce and Gnar are all pretty alright atm. Even Urgot is doing really well now, and he was probably one of the people who got bullied out by ranged tops the most. Also the loss of Klepto plays heavily into why Kennen and Kayle are no longer massive issues.
Sanguine Blade Cass is my favorite build.
: How care if klepto is gone ? New conq being useless on bruiser is beyond busted on range mages now So riot just gave them even better reason to go toplane Since bruiser cant do shitt anymore
Its only good on Ryze tho, on Cassio she is too squishy to make use of the heal and basically no other mage can really use it beyond meme or troll builds. So its just a Ryze rune now lmfao
: Why is that impressive? Taric is the best duelist in the game when he has an enemy that can't kite him. To beat morde I literally just stand there auto attacking him to death with my passive while healing everything he does. The only reason I was dying that game is becasue Vel Koz was doing over 2k true damage to me every fight.
Could you throw me some specifics like runes and items? I have been trying to pick up Taric top (and jg) again but I havent found any good or satisfactory set-up.
: Karma - Forever a Divided Community?
Whatever it is, changes to Karma should increase her self survivability. I could say that without the AoE shield on RE, Karma could perfectly have her Thicc Single Target shield values back, at least on herself. She was a very good assassin/dive counter back in the day and she should regain that ability. Also, a big (probably biggest) point of her OG kit was that she could use and empower different spells in different order depending on the situation, since all of them had dualistic uses and thus she had multiple offensive/counteroffensive and defensive/support combos she could use. While I disagree that the OG tether was ''not functional'' (in fact, I consider it more functional that the current tether), giving her the versatility of her OG kit in simple but effective ways on it is a great idea. Also while her passive is great, I feel like shield/heal power being converted to AP is a bit... dangerous. Then again you cant stack much of it so it doesnt matter much for support Karma, but it could make support items possibly desirable for Karma, specially on passive lanes. The AA modifier is a good idea, because right now Karma is supposed to weave AAs between spells but they feel very weak and unfulfilling (and often dangerous) to use, specially when Karma's survivability is currently leaving a lot to be desired.
: tbf he doesn't even use the ult to kick people into his team anymore, just uses it as an execute its kinda sad
Thats because Lee can now build full damage and not be punished for it. He doesnt fall off against anything that isnt tanks or juggernauts.
: Lee is fun to watch but kha and rengar? Would rather watch {{champion:57}} and {{champion:36}} slap eachother around in toplane
Lee ''outplaying'' an Ashe by doing the most repetitive play ever isnt fun anymore.
Antenora (EUW)
: No, Mages are not "leaving mid lane" at all. Using u.gg as my source, here is the top 15 mid laners in Patch 9.14 https://i.gyazo.com/89465c06ba91ef6e2eea85e7a8b3ea75.png 7/15 are AP Mages.   Would you like to know why AD Assassin's always pop off in Silver? Mid Laners seem to be allergic to buying {{item:3191}}. Seeker's Armguard when stacked provides enough armor to defend you against the Lethality on 2 full completed Lethality items for the entire game. {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} will scale throughout the game to provide a total of 39 armor penetration at level 18. Seeker's provides 45 armor for 1,100 gold and 30 farm (which doesn't take long considering most mages have giga waveclear) {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} is 5,800 gold worth of items.   {{champion:101}} just does what {{champion:115}} can do but 10x better. Why would you ever pick Ziggs if you can pick Xerath?   The only thing Ziggs has going for him right now is his Tower execute ability. He's outclassed in poke by champions like Xerath, Lux etc. He's outclassed in waveclear by champions like Xerath, Anivia, Morgana etc.
Ahri is way too close to AP assassin, same as Zoe. Malz is literally, even after massive nerfs, one of the few remaining anti-assassin picks. Vlad is an AP fighter that is being played mid specifically because assassin meta. Cass was literally buffed so she could survive assassins a bit better. That leaves Lux and Morgana, with Morgana also being a strong anti-dive and Lux just being overtuned because lol skins. Also, way to hide the pickrates! Because Zed is so banned yet still has several times the pickrate of most ''mage'' midlaners. He has close to 10 times the pickrate of Morgana, 4 times the pickrate of Cass, double that of Malz/Diana/Vlad/Lux. _**Literally the only mages on the top 15 of midlane are the few mages specialized on countering Zed, or AP fighters that can survive Zed. **_ {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}
: Get ready everyone (Patch 9.15)
Karma support nerf with no Mid karma compensation buff is just stupid. Just re-rework Karma already.
: > [{quoted}](name=Voluug13,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=molVGJGB,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-17T20:11:10.233+0000) > > Actually, they dont want counterpicks against their favored champions. For example, Zed is can counterpick but no one will allowed to counterpick him. Every single Zed counterpick has been nerfworked over the years. Only true counterpicks vs zed is now malzhar and lissandra due to their ult nature. But hold on now zed got edge of night /qss item now he's pretty much a OLAF ult invalidating aka insulting to their ult CC. He turns into a tank assassin due to the amount of steps needed to nullify edge/qss and it doesn't help that it's on a 40 second cool down either.
Malz and Liss really arent anymore. Before they depended on bursting them down hard and deny them at every turn, in exchange for low adc access. But now after a ton of damage nerfs they are glorified peel for the ADC. Malz cant burst any AD assassin anymore because of his overall nerfed burst damage, Zed can izi counterpush Malz because of visions nerfs + oneshotting minions on a low cd energy aoe skill + absurd anti-battlemage itemization and runes on the AD assassin side.
: > [{quoted}](name=Voluug13,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=00000000000100000001,timestamp=2019-07-17T19:16:59.622+0000) > > Wasnt counterpicking a bad thing? Who THE FUCK said that?
Riot and every hypermobile champion main.
: because they dont want skill to exist and/or counterplay. instead make counterpicking king
Actually, they dont want counterpicks against their favored champions. For example, Zed is can counterpick but no one will allowed to counterpick him. Every single Zed counterpick has been nerfworked over the years.
nm1010 (NA)
: Not doing a large overhaul on their code in nearly 10 years is likely what caused this. They touched the really old stuff (death recap) and broke a hundred things they didn't even know were related to it. People have joked about spaghetti code for years, now we actually get to see just how cobbled together it really is.
I had this issue 2 months ago where I installed the newer driver for my graphic card and LoL could just lose it's shit and say I was using a cheating software. It was just the video driver. I had to reinstall the whole game and deletea bunch of leftover hidden for the game to stop screaming wolf for having idk, the calculator app open.
: There is no coherency in your categorization. Firstly the term control mage/zoner is obsolete since most mages do the same thing, they zone. Syndra and Viktor are a lot stronger than the other picks you mention and they get picked every now and then in competitive. If it wasn't for Azir being the optimal mid mage they would be seen a lot more. Lissandra was a terror up until the spring split after which she was nerfed to the ground, it doesn't have to do with assassins being strong. You are comparing mages, the strongest overall class, with assassins, the weakest/second (?) weakest class in the game. And why not talk about control mages that dominate the game like Lux, Azir, Zilean and Taliyah. The very existence of zoning mages is what makes juggernauts nonexistent in the game. The strength of AP items right now gives mages the best shred in the game and since most juggernauts are reliant on facetanking they just get kited, CC'd and rendered useless by mages in fights. Assassins are the single most obsolete class in the game. There is literally ONE all around viable assassin right now, that is, Akali and that is primarily because of the early clock/hourglass not affecting her so much since she is a skirmishing assassin. The rest do not constitute optimal picks over any good mage in any kind if situation. Let's compare, Pool of viable Assassins: Akali, Zed (barely and only in theory, hourglass destroys him). Pool of viable Mages: Syndra, Viktor, Zilean, Lux, Azir, Taliyah, Leblanc, Zoe, Neeko, Rumble, Lissandra (albeit very situational), Ryze, Elise, Sylas, Vladimir. And now that my rant is over, I have to say, I agree with the gist of your post, just not the specific examples. It's bitterly true that some mages have been left to rot in the gutter. Ziggs, Xerath, Annie, Brand, Veigar, Vel'koz are the ones that pop up in my head immediately. And it's sad because if you strip their kits down they are centered around the same idea as those of other viable control mages. It's just that riot doesn't want to deal with refreshing their kits and numbers so that they can compete with the rest of their class. It's a problem of inter-class instability, not a problem of mages being weak as a whole.
< Syndra, Viktor, Azir, Taliyah < Viable {{sticker:sg-miss-fortune}} Also Vlad and Rumble are toplaners and barely see play vs assassins. Rumble barely qualifies as a ''mage'' in the first place.
: > [{quoted}](name=AFK at Keyboard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-17T14:30:06.958+0000) > > A diamond Syndra main personally taught me how to play her, I fucking love her, and she's still trash as hell. > > When I can for all rights outplay and win lane against a Talon or Kat and still get shit on, she's trash. > > Fat lazy cat is also fat uninformed cat ): It's a Talon/Katarina. Why WOULDN'T they shit on you eventually? You're not buying more than 45 armor, nor are you even looking at Banshee's, but it takes 60 armor/33 MR to nullify an AD/AP pen build, respectively. The point of Syndra is to win lane and close out *before the late game.* If you aren't doing that, you're doing it wrong. You're not entitled to a clean late game because you won early.
> It's a Talon/Katarina. Why WOULDN'T they shit on you eventually? Wasnt counterpicking a bad thing? If you ~outplayed~ your opponent you should win anyways. Thats why Riot got rid of most assassin midlane counterpicks... Oh wait, it was an entirely onesided process, yeah, forgot.
Velasan (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=AlterMordred,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-17T10:13:40.793+0000) > > Pretty sure I hear mages make the same complaint when a 6/1 zed one shots the ludens echo Orianna but go ahead and downvote me As someone who has been on both sides of that argument and is a mage player... that's not what anyone has complained about. The current complaints to date are that there should be at least one other AP armor item to choose from, that there are no anti AD shields compared to magic shields, and that Lethality existing forces you into building early armor over anything else just to survive, and that there is an abundance of anti magic defensive itemization to choose from at relatively cheap cost. Usually it's that hexdrinker {{item:3155}} is not comparable to arm guard{{item:3191}} which is true enough. Then in runes you also get null orb while there is no anti AD equivalent. In summary, just that the match up favors AD assassins due to the current meta. Not their kits or necessarily even the way they work, but more from itemization and rune choices. A fed anything will kill another champion. Pretty much what the game is about, and why it loudly announces it every time someone dies.
Also it doesnt help that a lot of midlaners that were assassin counters have been nerfworked or are outright weak. Malz now barely counters assassins (and Fizz will laugh at him once those PBE changes happen) because his shield is awful to counter all-ins and his burst doesnt exist (and most assassins can oneshot his voidlings because manaless aoes). Swain is now barely existing. The list goes on. Riot outright deleted bad match-ups for assassins while allowing them to hardcounter half or more midlane.
: > [{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JhfEIQBg,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-17T04:15:32.565+0000) > > "B-but her ult killed me in one shot when she was 8-0! Broken champ!" Pretty sure I hear mages make the same complaint when a 6/1 zed one shots the ludens echo Orianna but go ahead and downvote me
I dont think thats an issue. Except when Zed does it without his ult, just duskblade, a Q and some AAs. Which I see all the time, even when his opponent is on equal terms of gold.
: While I agree with your statement, and don't like RIOT's inconsistency I do think these are 2 different cases. TL;DR: both champions aren't very strong right now, but they aren't in very dire spot and buffing Jhin isn't as risky as buffing Viktor The thing about Jhin is that he is quite simply outclassed by other ADCs. He isn't as strong late as some hypercarries and even though he is strong in lane, he still lacks power to be considered a bully like Lucian or Cait. What RIOT is trying to do, is make some distinct difference between jhin and other carries, as such they improve his catching tool to be of better quality, so as to amplify a certain strength. If you look at Viktor, his problems are quite complicated. Since he has been changed to a control mage from a burst mage back in the day, he wasn't really a big deal if you disregard his sudden appearance in the top lane after klepto buffs. Viktor is outclassed by other control mages, since he isn't strong early but his scaling and range aren't great, champions like Azir or Corki with similar power curve, but overall bigger powerspike in mid to late game, and considerably more safety are just better picks for late game. For the early game there are plenty of picks better than him in the middle. Regarding Viktor in the top lane, he is outclassed by the likes of Neeko and Kennen, who are just perfect bullies with great opportunities for scaling. However, what I think is in RIOT's mind is the fact that he WAS a very big bully and powerful control mage. His kit is very problematic, because ramping up his damage might cause him to be too safe with the ammount of utility he has. Statistics don't show that but every once in a while there is a match with viktor who decides to go defensive route, and isn't behind. Due to his utility he can still be very potent threat that can't be killed by anything other than burst. What I think should be done is just focusing on one viktor, so either a good utility based bully on the top (and in that case you just increase his early game potential) or a powerful mid to late game control mage in the midlane (in which case RIOT should decrease his mobility and shield from his Q, while increasing his damage output and potentially range). Otherwise Viktor is in this awkward spot, where RIOT can't buff him in any way, because of fear on how it will impact the other role, potentially making him spike too high in said role
I think that also Viktor has been mobilitycreeped. As of right now, his best hitting spell is his E, but its severely annoying to use on this hypermobile assassin mid meta, so he ends up with an ineffectual E and a nerfed Q. I still maintain that the main reason why Viktop was a thing its because his Q is reliable on top of being a great anti-melee skill, which doesnt get much use in midlane because of the nature of champions that play there: either he gets bursted trying to get into range or he has to enter into some assassin's closegap range and dies to an all in. Which goes back into your point that he was designed kinda messily, probably a remnant of back when champions werent pidgeonholed into a single lane, and needs some kind rebalancing to put him into one direction.
: Oh, by no means. I just think it’s annoying that she does like 3/4 her damage while quite literally being untargetable. Of course, if you just explode her carry, she’s dead. But that involves breaking through her healbotting first.
3/4 her damage being a weak poke and AAs with her pitiful starting ad? Soraka can outburst and out-dps a Yuumi.
: > [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F4ztpt1j,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-07-15T23:20:23.169+0000) > > the problem is riot severely overtunes the numbers of high skill champs for some reason...which is honestly just bad design...i can understand giving riven a bit of a dmg edge over say...diana....but right now its ludicrous....riven is doing 500 dmg level 1 with a single combo..which she can pull off within 2 seconds because of her animation cancelling, she does have counters, but as of right now...riot needs to be a little less generous in terms of numbers on high skill champs i dont play riven so idk if this is a dumb thing to say but would removing animation cancels for her make fix the problem?
Yes it could, but bonbon or whatever his name and his troupe of fanboys will murder you in your sleep.
: Oh no, you can dodge the Q, and it's quite funny when you do. But in order to do so, you need to time your DDOS correctly on the enemy team. xD (Seriously though, Yuumi needs to have like 600 ping, or her adc/attached target needs to run away from you and cuck her range. Only other way to dodge it is to run between your minions and eat her adc's combo instead.)
I mean sure, but thats not _burst_. Lets not call her a burst mage when she oh so obviously isnt.
: Except {{champion:84}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:432}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:203}} {{champion:76}} {{champion:142}} exist, high skill champs that aren't overtuned. On the other hand, some of the most overtuned champs atm are completely brainless: {{champion:82}} {{champion:223}} {{champion:131}} Lee has a big pickrate because he's fun to play. Vayne's stats aren't out of line.
TK is only overtuned early on, he drops like bricks after 15min, so more that overtuned he is mis(?)tuned. Morde is supposed to have stronger numbers that hypermobile heroes, if he was numerically tuned at the same level that hypermobile tops then there isnt a point of picking him or any juggernaut. And Diana has higher numbers to make up for the fact that her itemization is mediocre and she has no escapes. Why even pick her if someone safer has equal or better numbers?
Xavanic (NA)
: the problem is riot severely overtunes the numbers of high skill champs for some reason...which is honestly just bad design...i can understand giving riven a bit of a dmg edge over say...diana....but right now its ludicrous....riven is doing 500 dmg level 1 with a single combo..which she can pull off within 2 seconds because of her animation cancelling, she does have counters, but as of right now...riot needs to be a little less generous in terms of numbers on high skill champs
Riven is so overtuned that she can one-sidedly burst down anyone that doesnt have point&click CC. If your CC can fail she will just shit on you hard.
Show more


Level 8 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion