: > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NI9c7rbO,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-03-14T03:20:01.124+0000) > > https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Ezreal/ > https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Vayne/ADC/ > > You were saying? Don't even need to look at those links, if you don't think ezreal isn't the best ADC in the game right now you are bad.
> [{quoted}](name=MorgManBasher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NI9c7rbO,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-03-14T04:30:35.217+0000) > > Don't even need to look at those links, if you don't think ezreal isn't the best ADC in the game right now you are bad. Wow, 10/10 rock solid arguing skills. You are truly a master of debate, ignore all facts presented to you and you'll never be wrong. By the way you used a double negative. It should be "if you don't think Ezreal is the best ADC".
: "best adc in the game" Are we talking about Ezreal here or Vayne? lul She is far from the best ADC in the game and if you get to counter pick her she is in for a very rough laning phase. She needed buffs for sure, though this probably wasn't the best way to go about it but let's not sit here and pretend she is the best ADC in the game. Maybe the least healthy ADC in the game.
> [{quoted}](name=MorgManBasher,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NI9c7rbO,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-03-14T02:35:37.312+0000) > > "best adc in the game" > > Are we talking about Ezreal here or Vayne? lul > > She is far from the best ADC in the game and if you get to counter pick her she is in for a very rough laning phase. > > She needed buffs for sure, though this probably wasn't the best way to go about it but let's not sit here and pretend she is the best ADC in the game. Maybe the least healthy ADC in the game. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Ezreal/ https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Vayne/ADC/ You were saying?
Rioter Comments
JuiceBoxP (EUNE)
: Personal opinion: cats are shit animals. You feed them, give them shelter and give them love... They scratch and bite you when ever they fucking feel like it My dog is 17 years old tho {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
> [{quoted}](name=JuiceBoxP,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yIltAkuU,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-05T21:00:53.611+0000) > > Personal opinion: > > cats are shit animals. > You feed them, give them shelter and give them love... They scratch and bite you when ever they fucking feel like it > > My dog is 17 years old tho > {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}} Personal opinion: People who think cats are shit animals are shit humans
: I'd change the Lifesteal on his passive from it's current 12 / 18 / 24% (at levels 1, 7, and 13) to 5 / 10 / 15 / 20% (at levels 1, 6, 11, and 16). This should cut down nicely on his sustain and enforce him as a late-game scaling champion with a weak early game.
> [{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pgOEV1ct,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-28T14:38:19.723+0000) > > I'd change the Lifesteal on his passive from it's current 12 / 18 / 24% (at levels 1, 7, and 13) to 5 / 10 / 15 / 20% (at levels 1, 6, 11, and 16). > > This should cut down nicely on his sustain and enforce him as a late-game scaling champion with a weak early game. This change would delete Nasus from the game, or at least in higher elos. Against meta top laners and competent players, you can't expect Nasus to ever survive the early game and actually reach the late-game if you cut his early game lifesteal in half.
Hilsun (NA)
: The only time Appeal to Authority is NOT a fallacy is when your expertise actually has a bearing on the topic at hand speaking with individuals who make counter-claims with none of the required experience to understand the topic. As you duly noted for me, you understood how the passive worked before you got to Diamond, therefore agreeing with me that stating your ranked status _is a moot point._ The topic at hand is "passive description clarity," which is something that should be understood immediately by anyone reading it with a basic familiarity of League of Legends, regardless of rank. Your ability to personally comprehend information does not suggest the information was presented optimally. If people are having trouble understanding (which this whole thread is evidence of) then the description could be revised, or information could be added to provide further clarity. To my (limited) knowledge, there are not a lot of similar, pre-mitigation effects in LoL, so expecting every LoL player to understand 1) pre-mitigation language and 2) how exactly that mechanic functions is hopeful at best, or ignorant at worst. What your argument essentially boils down to is: "there's no need to clarify because I personally understand it." What's the point of posting at all to a thread where someone says "I don't understand" if all you're adding to the conversation is "well you _should_ understand"? That's not a rhetorical question.
> [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=000100010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T22:00:58.339+0000) > > The only time Appeal to Authority is NOT a fallacy is when your expertise actually has a bearing on the topic at hand speaking with individuals who make counter-claims with none of the required experience to understand the topic. As you duly noted for me, you understood how the passive worked before you got to Diamond, therefore agreeing with me that stating your ranked status _is a moot point._ The topic at hand is "passive description clarity," which is something that should be understood immediately by anyone reading it with a basic familiarity of League of Legends, regardless of rank. > > Your ability to personally comprehend information does not suggest the information was presented optimally. If people are having trouble understanding (which this whole thread is evidence of) then the description could be revised, or information could be added to provide further clarity. > > To my (limited) knowledge, there are not a lot of similar, pre-mitigation effects in LoL, so expecting every LoL player to understand 1) pre-mitigation language and 2) how exactly that mechanic functions is hopeful at best, or ignorant at worst. What your argument essentially boils down to is: "there's no need to clarify because I personally understand it." What's the point of posting at all to a thread where someone says "I don't understand" if all you're adding to the conversation is "well you _should_ understand"? That's not a rhetorical question. First of all, I just explained why the information is already presented optimally? Literally the only things you need to know in order to understand Kayn's passive is that armor reduces physical damage and magic resist reduces magic damage. If you know these things but still can't understand his passive, don't blame Riot for a lack of clarity. Second of all, why are you mentioning "pre-mitigation effects" when Kayn's passive has NOTHING to do with pre-mitigation? Thirdly, are you even going to suggest how to change the wording of Kayn's passive since I showed you why your first suggestion doesn't work? Basically the only thing I could think of changing with Shadow Kayn's passive is adding "(post mitigation)" after "all damage dealt to champions", but even that doesn't feel necessary. Rhaast's passive doesn't need to clarify that it heals off of post-mitigation damage, right? Because that should already be intuitive, and adding "post-mitigation" might just confuse new players. Shadow Kayn's passive isn't any less clear than Rhaast's. Regarding your whole appeal to authority thing, rank and champion experience isn't necessarily a moot point on this topic just because I happened to understand Kayn's passive when I was Gold. Rank and champion experience also signifies that I probably have the game knowledge to know when an ability description is as accurate, concise and clear as possible. If people are still having trouble understanding it, that is 100 percent on them.
Hilsun (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T17:48:32.664+0000) > >Shadow Kayn's passive is reduced by both armor AND magic resistance. Ok. So where does it say that? That's kind of OP's point, and the longer this conversation continues, the stronger his point becomes--the Shadow Assassin passive is unclear. > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T17:48:32.664+0000) > > How is it a fallacy to bring up the fact that I have way more authority than you on this subject? Once you get 830k+ mastery points on Kayn, maybe I'll give your opinion more weight. [It's called Appeal to Authority](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority). Not everyone is a diamond tier Kayn player with hundreds of games played and an intuitive sense of how much damage you'll be doing. "Because I understand it, it doesn't need to be made clearer for anyone" is not an effective argument toward someone stating that they don't understand it and who is almost guaranteed to be a less experienced Kayn player than you. If anything, your vast experience with Kayn does the opposite in this instance: it eliminates you from having an unbiased opinion on matters of clarity, because you have put in a ton of time and experience with it to understand how it works. But it shouldn't require diamond-level Kayn players to understand the passive, _**and that's the point.**_
> [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=0001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T18:23:58.537+0000) > > Ok. So where does it say that? That's kind of OP's point, and the longer this conversation continues, the stronger his point becomes--the Shadow Assassin passive is unclear. > > [It's called Appeal to Authority](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority). > > Not everyone is a diamond tier Kayn player with hundreds of games played and an intuitive sense of how much damage you'll be doing. "Because I understand it, it doesn't need to be made clearer for anyone" is not an effective argument toward someone stating that they don't understand it and who is almost guaranteed to be a less experienced Kayn player than you. > > If anything, your vast experience with Kayn does the opposite in this instance: it eliminates you from having an unbiased opinion on matters of clarity, because you have put in a ton of time and experience with it to understand how it works. But it shouldn't require diamond-level Kayn players to understand the passive, _**and that's the point.**_ What do you mean "where does it say that"? The wording of Shadow Kayn's passive makes it very clear that it's reduced by both armor and magic resistance. "For the first 3 seconds of champion combat, deal X percent of all damage dealt to champions as bonus magic damage". "X percent of all damage dealt to champions" is clearly reduced by armor, similar to how the Darkin's passive of "Heal for X percent of spell damage dealt to champions" is also reduced by armor. Since the passive deals bonus magic damage and not bonus true damage, it is further reduced by magic resistance. The length of this conversation proves nothing except your lack of common sense. I'm literally just going to quote the page you linked to make the point I was going to make anyways: "Be very careful not to confuse "deferring to an authority on the issue" with the appeal to authority fallacy. Remember, a fallacy is an error in reasoning. Dismissing the council of legitimate experts and authorities turns good skepticism into denialism. The appeal to authority is a fallacy in argumentation, but deferring to an authority is a reliable heuristic that we all use virtually every day on issues of relatively little importance. There is always a chance that any authority can be wrong, that’s why the critical thinker accepts facts provisionally. It is not at all unreasonable (or an error in reasoning) to accept information as provisionally true by credible authorities. Of course, the reasonableness is moderated by the claim being made (i.e., how extraordinary, how important) and the authority (how credible, how relevant to the claim)." I'm not just saying my authority on the topic and nothing else, that would be a fallacy. I'm also giving reasons for my claim. But you're right, it shouldn't take a Diamond Kayn main to understand how the Assassin passive works. Good thing it doesn't, since I've understood how it works ever since the champion was released. This was when I was still gold, and Kayn was the main reason I was motivated to get to Diamond.
Hilsun (NA)
: Well if it's post-mitigation damage, then yes, that's true! That would make the number calcs as complicated as the Rhaast healing. But I can't find anywhere that specifies it's "pre-mitigation"; is that just implied by "percentage of all damage dealt to champions"? At that point it's an interpretation issue, and I suppose that's where the clarity of its functionality is lacking. :0 However...could the bonus damage then not be denoted as magic damage that is mitigated by armor? It technically could be denoted as a flat number, it's just magic damage mitigated by armor rather than by MR. Using your example: W's base damage is 270, so the bonus magic damage if dealt unmitigated is 119.34. Therefore, the bonus damage lines up perfectly with your example, because against an enemy with 100 armor (50% damage reduction) the bonus magic damage would be 59. And against someone with 200 armor--you guessed it--it'd be 40 again if you take the flat number (119.34) and divide by 3 for the 66.66% reduction. So even if the tooltip said "Shadow Assassin: Gains (+119) magic damage against champions, affected by armor" I would STILL prefer that over not saying anything. > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T16:39:18.940+0000) > > Why are you even trying to argue with a Diamond Kayn OTP? If I say Shadow Kayn's passive doesn't need more clarity, then it doesn't. You lost me there. Your point is better made if you stick with the facts (pre-mitigated damage isn't flat damage) rather than fallacies (I'm a high-ELO player therefore I know everything).
> [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T17:09:53.391+0000) > > Well if it's post-mitigation damage, then yes, that's true! That would make the number calcs as complicated as the Rhaast healing. But I can't find anywhere that specifies it's "pre-mitigation"; is that just implied by "percentage of all damage dealt to champions"? At that point it's an interpretation issue, and I suppose that's where the clarity of its functionality is lacking. :0 > > However...could the bonus damage then not be denoted as magic damage that is mitigated by armor? It technically could be denoted as a flat number, it's just magic damage mitigated by armor rather than by MR. Using your example: W's base damage is 270, so the bonus magic damage if dealt unmitigated is 119.34. Therefore, the bonus damage lines up perfectly with your example, because against an enemy with 100 armor (50% damage reduction) the bonus magic damage would be 59. And against someone with 200 armor--you guessed it--it'd be 40 again if you take the flat number (119.34) and divide by 3 for the 66.66% reduction. > > So even if the tooltip said "Shadow Assassin: Gains (+119) magic damage against champions, affected by armor" I would STILL prefer that over not saying anything. > > You lost me there. Your point is better made if you stick with the facts (pre-mitigated damage isn't flat damage) rather than fallacies (I'm a high-ELO player therefore I know everything). Oh my god stop embarrassing yourself. Shadow Kayn's passive is reduced by both armor AND magic resistance. When I said Kayn's passive would give you 59 or 40 bonus damage, that's before taking magic resistance into account. Even if Kayn's passive was reduced by only armor or magic resist and not both, I would still be against the completely unnecessary change you're proposing. Completely pointless clutter, knowing the percent damage boost is good enough on its own. How is it a fallacy to bring up the fact that I have way more authority than you on this subject? Once you get 830k+ mastery points on Kayn, maybe I'll give your opinion more weight.
Hilsun (NA)
: I already addressed this above. > [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T16:10:12.762+0000) >And while magic resist will cause this number to fluctuate, not providing the base numbers for this damage because of MR variability is about as reasonable as not providing the base numbers of any other abilities. Just because it's not true damage doesn't mean the numbers aren't helpful to know your champion's capabilities. Essentially: the bonus damage starts out as a flat amount, and that amount is helpful to know.
> [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-02-27T16:17:05.515+0000) > > I already addressed this above. > > Essentially: the bonus damage starts out as a flat amount, and that amount is helpful to know. The damage isn't a flat amount, as I already told you it's based on POST MITIGATION damage. Imagine a level 18 Shadow Kayn with no items. His w will do 135 physical damage to a target with 100 armor, and 90 damage to a target with 200 armor. Therefore, his passive will give 59 bonus magic damage against the 100 armor target and 40 bonus magic damage to the 200 armor target. Why are you even trying to argue with a Diamond Kayn OTP? If I say Shadow Kayn's passive doesn't need more clarity, then it doesn't.
Hilsun (NA)
: I agree with this, for the most part. I think it would be helpful to have a real-time number appear for each ability to demonstrate how much bonus magic damage our skills will do if we're in Assassin form. That way we're more easily able to clearly understand our damage potential. It could look like: Q: "Both the dash and strike deal 140 (+65) physical damage. Shadow Assassin: Deals (66) bonus magic damage." That's all it would need.
> [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-27T14:17:50.146+0000) > > I agree with this, for the most part. I think it would be helpful to have a real-time number appear for each ability to demonstrate how much bonus magic damage our skills will do if we're in Assassin form. That way we're more easily able to clearly understand our damage potential. It could look like: > > Q: "Both the dash and strike deal 140 (+65) physical damage. > > Shadow Assassin: Deals (66) bonus magic damage." > > That's all it would need. Another problem with this that I forgot to mention is that the bonus damage Kayn's passive deals isn't constant like you make it seem. It's based on post-mitigation damage, so the amount of bonus damage you get from Kayn's passive depends on how much armor your target has.
Hilsun (NA)
: I agree with this, for the most part. I think it would be helpful to have a real-time number appear for each ability to demonstrate how much bonus magic damage our skills will do if we're in Assassin form. That way we're more easily able to clearly understand our damage potential. It could look like: Q: "Both the dash and strike deal 140 (+65) physical damage. Shadow Assassin: Deals (66) bonus magic damage." That's all it would need.
> [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-02-27T14:17:50.146+0000) > > I agree with this, for the most part. I think it would be helpful to have a real-time number appear for each ability to demonstrate how much bonus magic damage our skills will do if we're in Assassin form. That way we're more easily able to clearly understand our damage potential. It could look like: > > Q: "Both the dash and strike deal 140 (+65) physical damage. > > Shadow Assassin: Deals (66) bonus magic damage." > > That's all it would need. No, this change would only make Shadow assassin Kayn's passive MORE confusing. First of all, you can't just put "Deals X bonus magic damage" on all of Kayn's abilities because it is only against champions and only for the first few seconds of combat. If you just added this while keeping Kayn's passive the same, it would make it seem like that the passive and this bonus damage on abilities are different things. It's not like you can remove the shadow assassin's passive either, because it's supposed to also buff auto attacks and you need it in order to keep track of when it's back up. Imagine if you put "Heals for X% of damage dealt to champions" on all of Rhaast's abilities. Completely redundant and unnecessary, right? There is absolutely no need to change shadow Kayn's passive.
Hilsun (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-27T13:47:33.705+0000) > > The shadow assassin passive makes perfect sense. Your post, on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense. The passive does make sense--that doesn't mean it's not lacking clarity. I understand OP just fine.
> [{quoted}](name=Hilsun,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=q8XzEX4e,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-27T14:09:07.131+0000) > > The passive does make sense--that doesn't mean it's not lacking clarity. I understand OP just fine. How is it lacking clarity? It's written fine as is. Besides, it's not like he's offering a better way to write it. How do you understand the OP just fine when he's saying things like this: "The Passive should show the amount of damage Kayn will for the first 3 seconds" (It does?) "Where is this number being pulled from? if it exists we should be able to see what that number is so we can accurately assess our current strength." (Wdym where it's pulled from, it's based on his level? You ARE able to see what number it is.)
: Kayn Shadow Assassin Change
The shadow assassin passive makes perfect sense. Your post, on the other hand, makes absolutely no sense.
: I said this when they first announced it. It basically amounts to every game your not playing on you main role as totally pointless and a waste of time. Which is going to lead to people just throwing games in their off roles cuz they dont care. An that doesnt even go into the fact that most people barely have enough time to rank up an account and now you have to rank up by role meaning if you dont get your main your wasting your time and it will actually take even MORE games to rank up. Mark my words at the end of this season people will be on average 2 tiers lower then last year simply because of these issues and not having time to play more games.
> [{quoted}](name=YOU SO BAD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WtWxOUkE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-27T05:25:15.903+0000) > Mark my words at the end of this season people will be on average 2 tiers lower then last year simply because of these issues and not having time to play more games. Do you mean 2 divisions lower? Because if you actually believe people will be 2 tiers lower on average then that is just silly. Even if you go 0-8 in your placement matches, you probably won't be 2 tiers lower than where you were before. I was D2 and my provisional rank was P2 after my first placement game.
: Crowd Control is OUT of control.
There are actually two runes that give tenacity.
MrHaZeYo (NA)
: Does he have 2108 CS? Wtf.
> [{quoted}](name=MrHaZeYo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m2Ml4LU7,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-21T22:22:13.728+0000) > > Does he have 2108 CS? Wtf. No, he has 133. The yellow numbers in the middle are the creep scores. He had 2,108 gold on him at that point, and he had 5,818 gold in total.
: > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m2Ml4LU7,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-21T21:41:53.278+0000) > > I'm well aware that CS bounties exist now. What I'm saying is that Riot clearly needs to take another look at the system they use to calculate bounties, since there is absolutely no reason that the other team should be rewarded more for killing a player that is this behind. All I did was answer a simple question with a simple answer. I don’t know why they should be rewarded for purely farming. This might be an answer to proxy Singed and lone dog Nasus...
> [{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m2Ml4LU7,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-21T21:55:15.385+0000) > > All I did was answer a simple question with a simple answer. I don’t know why they should be rewarded for purely farming. This might be an answer to proxy Singed and lone dog Nasus... You actually answered a rhetorical question. Perhaps I shouldn't have assumed that people would realize this. Just imagine the title as "An 0/4/0 player with the least amount of gold in the game shouldn't have a bounty". Are you actually disagreeing with this statement? I'm not arguing against CS bounties per se, but if it allows stuff like this to happen then something definitely needs to be fixed.
: CS bounty. The more he farms up without killing or being killed, he builds a CS bounty.
> [{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m2Ml4LU7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-21T21:29:48.225+0000) > > CS bounty. The more he farms up without killing or being killed, he builds a CS bounty. I'm well aware that CS bounties exist now. What I'm saying is that Riot clearly needs to take another look at the system they use to calculate bounties, since there is absolutely no reason that the other team should be rewarded more for killing a player that is this behind.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Is Kayn capped on how fast he can transform?
No, there is no hard cap on how fast Kayn can transform. Keep in mind that Kayn has two separate transformation meters to fill up, but the meter will only show the progress of the orbs you collected the most. Because your Kayn game had 4 ranged champions in it, your meter was likely filled with only blue orbs initially. Hitting their melee champion was making progress towards the red meter that you couldn't see. If you want Rhaast vs a mostly ranged team, you're probably better off just filling up the blue meter asap and waiting the 4 minutes instead of desperately throwing yourself at their one melee champion.
: kayns in the shitter and needs a rework lol
> [{quoted}](name=Loli Ravioli,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jMYEKt0h,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-17T15:49:51.430+0000) > > kayns in the shitter and needs a rework lol No he isn't, and no he doesn't. As for the op, these low quality posts are so laughably consistent. Can you please be more original than a silver player immediately complaining about a champion you just got dumpstered by? I will grant you that Kayn might be on the strong side currently, and he can feel oppressive when ahead. But try multiple games with the champion yourself and make an informed opinion before posting or people won't take you seriously.
RJ01 (NA)
: A possible revamp to Shadow Assassin Kayn
Shadow assassin is completely fine as is. It's true that shadow assassin is viable in less situations than Rhaast, but it's okay if there isn't a complete parity between the forms. Shadow assassin still has its niche and a role to fill, it isn't made completely obsolete by Rhaast. It's also true that Kayn lacks escape after he commits to a fight, but it's fine if that's his weakness as long as power is budgeted elsewhere. Blue Kayn makes up for it by having great map mobility that is only rivaled by Quinn. Rengar and Nocturne are also examples of successful assassins that don't have reliable escapes. I don't know why you are proposing completely different abilities for shadow assassin when Kayn's entire theme is about having 2 forms with the same abilities, just different effects. Why do you want to destroy Kayn's identity by making all orbs the same and getting rid of his iconic ultimate? You don't seem to understand how important the ult is to shadow assassin. Shadow assassin is very reliant on his passive/abilities being up for damage, so how is shadow assassin supposed to compete in extended skirmishes without the the untargetability to wait for cooldowns as well as the passive reset? It's a great chasing tool, and its damage is better than you're making it out to be. Lastly, you said Kayn didn't take much advice from Zed? Literally the entirety of the shadow assassin's kit is related to shadow magic except for his q, which is just him normally using his weapon(no different from Zed's shurkens). Kayn has his own style but it's very clear who he learned from.
: Kayn Questions
Kayn is a very balanced champion, or arguably a slightly above average jungler. He is completely capable of hard carrying if you know what you're doing. By all means try him out, and don't let the choosing forms thing intimidate you. When you get experience with Kayn, it's a painless process. These are the questions I ask myself when deciding which form to go with: Which form will be easier to obtain based on the enemy team? If the enemy team has 3 melee or ranged champs, this point isn't too big of a deal. But if they have 4 or more, then you will either have to go out of your way to fight someone or delay a major power spike. How much crowd control does the enemy team have? While both forms of Kayn are vulnerable to crowd control, assassin Kayn is especially so. He will just get insta popped before he has a chance to ult. Roots and grounded effects are particularly annoying for Kayn, since they disable his entire kit except for his W. How tanky is the enemy team? This is an obvious point. If the enemy team has more than 1 person that builds defensive items, I would consider that a tanky team and a point in Rhaast's favor. What does my own team need? In most cases, a team will value the cc and survivability Rhaast brings. But sometimes, your team already has the frontline department covered and needs an assassin to take care of the backline. How fed did I get in the early game? Overall, Rhaast is the safer pick if you fell behind since he's still useful with his cc. But assassin Kayn is better at snowballing an early lead thanks to his great map mobility and burst. After asking myself these 5 questions, I'll only pick shadow assassin if it is favored for at least 4 of the questions. You should honestly consider Rhaast as the default transformation, while shadow assassin is the niche pick. As for Kayn's ult, it's only a death sentence if you used it incorrectly or were going to die anyways. But you are correct, its main use is the un targetability that allows Kayn to wait for cooldowns. Keep it mind that the ult is also a useful tower diving tool. Being Rhaast kinda makes this ult unconditionally amazing from its damage and healing alone. Well, I guess the one condition is that you use it on a tank. The long range in assassin form makes it a reliable chasing tool, but the short range on Rhaast may require you to use it preemptively if you're trying to chase with it. Also remember that the assassin ult resets his passive, which is critically important for extended skirmishes since Kayn's damage is pretty underwhelming without it.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Better Jungler,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Ja84s0wm,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-09-11T01:02:50.961+0000) > > where did you see his transformations? Im curious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Xi_ZM02j4
Terozu (NA)
: Kayn has probably not actually mastered all weapons. Thats just his audacity. And no Kayn really isnt a ninja, he has the capacity to become one but theres a reason its the shadow assassin form and not shadow ninja form. Hes closer to Kat in terms of fighting style, preferring a storm of slices and blades, than to Zed who prefers stealth and silent execution, he just has shadow magic. He's also very _un_ disciplined and very disobedient.
> [{quoted}](name=Terozu,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Ja84s0wm,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-11T00:42:37.204+0000) > > Kayn has probably not actually mastered all weapons. Thats just his audacity. > > > And no Kayn really isnt a ninja, he has the capacity to become one but theres a reason its the shadow assassin form and not shadow ninja form. > > Hes closer to Kat in terms of fighting style, preferring a storm of slices and blades, than to Zed who prefers stealth and silent execution, he just has shadow magic. He's also very _un_ disciplined and very disobedient. So you're going to challenge lines that are literally in Kayn's lore? "Acolytes traditionally spent years training with a single weapon of their choosing, but Kayn mastered them all". At best it could be an embellishment, but it's safe to say Kayn was Zed's most talented student by far and his resulting audacity is very understandable. And yes, Kayn is DEFINITELY a ninja that uses stealth and silent execution. Here's some more lore lines: "Armor he viewed as a cumbersome burden, instead cloaking himself in shadows and slaying his enemies with quickness and stealth. These swift executions instilled fear in the hearts of those fortunate enough to be spared". In what world is Kayn undisciplined or disobedient? "While his young comrades were cut down or fled the battlefield, Kayn showed no fear. He dropped his heavy sword and snatched up a fallen sickle, turning to face the shocked Ionians just as the Noxian regulars swept in from the flank." This is a child obeying orders to fight in a war. When he was ordered to prevent the Darkin scythe from being used against Ionia, "He accepted without hesitation, never questioning why he had been chosen for this task." Granted, the surest way of doing that was destroying the scythe instead of picking it up, but he never outright defied orders as far as we know. Seriously, Kayn's accomplishments are quite legendary and you don't get to that level by being a slacker. You actually know nothing about Kayn.
Terozu (NA)
: Kayn IS a punk teen. Hus pure teenage audacity is what drives him and his arrogance. Hes the same age as Lux and Ezreal. He's just one who has the powers of a shadow ninja. Furthermore hes not really a ninja, just an assassin. Also the skins are a reference the fifth element. https://howcanulikethat.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/zorg.jpg
> [{quoted}](name=Terozu,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Ja84s0wm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-11T00:09:51.205+0000) > > Kayn IS a punk teen. > > Hus pure teenage audacity is what drives him and his arrogance. Hes the same age as Lux and Ezreal. > > He's just one who has the powers of a shadow ninja. > > Furthermore hes not really a ninja, just an assassin. > > > Also the skins are a reference the fifth element. > > https://howcanulikethat.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/zorg.jpg First of all, I am aware of Kayn's age. Although he is arrogant, he is too disciplined to be considered a "punk" in my eyes. He has mastered every weapon of war and halted a Darkin's corruption, after all. Secondly, Kayn is definitely a ninja. Very strange that you would claim otherwise, he's literally a student of Zed and a member of his Order of Shadows. Regardless, my main point is that the base form of the new skin really doesn't suit me at all.
Rioter Comments
: why does kayn always get some random buff?
I wouldn't call any of Kayn's buffs random, there's a good reason for each one of them. The first buff he received just made sure his ultimate didn't hit like a wet noodle. It literally had less AD scaling than his basic abilities despite it being single target. He got buffed in patch 7.24b because fighters were weak overall and items gave less lethality across the board. The buff in 8.6 was compensation for the duskblade nerf. Kayn got a good buff to his early game soul collection in patch 8.7(because it was basically nothing before this), but it was at the expense of mid game soul collection so it didn't push him over the edge or anything. I view the most recent buff as compensation for the nerfs to electrocute and sudden impact.
: I don't get the Kayn/Rengar/Irelia/Fiora/Kassadin buffs.
What are you talking about? Wukong got buffed this patch, not nerfed.
: Kayn is actually very good and fun to play, let me give you a few tips. Base kayn sucks, so you NEED to get a form. So I won't give any tips on the base form just keep hitting champs to get orbs. He has a couple key items I recommend for him in either form, {{item:3153}} , {{item:3071}} . Rhaast: 1 - Build him a tank with warmogs and sterraks, and to make him a tank with tanks for wheels, give him a death's dance, BORK, and black cleaver. 2 - his q you should max first, it can do a lot of damage even towards tanks. 3 - his w should be maxed second, it does a fairly decent amount of damage with a serious knockup. 4 - his e should be maxed last, it's still fairly decent of an ability, but you want to have as much bruising as possible. 5 - his ult isn't mean to be a "massive damage nuke" it's supposed to be a way to regain health (mostly if you do it on tanks) and to wait for cooldowns a little longer. 6 - he can be a massive god in a team fight because of his knockup, and if you build him a tank and engage with also your ultimate, you give no cheese about the enemy team. 7 - if you also have the build I mentioned on #1, give him gargoyles to make him even more hard to deal with in a team fight. 8 - this guy can hard counter some champions that are very powerful in team fights, such as yasuo, tryndamere, and so on. HE EATS THEM ALL FOR BEKFAST Shadow Assassin: 1 - always build duskblade and youmuu's, lethality is a large part on this form. 2 - you may also want to build boots of mobility to do a swift engage. 3 - to make tanks cry, give him BORK and black cleaver. 4 - max your w first since it's way more useful in the damage compartment in this form than the q. 5 - max your q second the damage is still good. 6 - max your e last yet again. 7 - your ult you should use after 3 seconds, which is the duration of your passive in this form. Because it resets your passive plus it does a lot of damage. 8 - when you are shadow assassin, you are most effective with doing quick kills to targets that are alone.
> [{quoted}](name=Lord Apex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=clfdwHjA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-27T05:17:27.945+0000) > > Kayn is actually very good and fun to play, let me give you a few tips. > Base kayn sucks, so you NEED to get a form. So I won't give any tips on the base form just keep hitting champs to get orbs. > > He has a couple key items I recommend for him in either form, {{item:3153}} , {{item:3071}} . > > Rhaast: > 1 - Build him a tank with warmogs and sterraks, and to make him a tank with tanks for wheels, give him a death's dance, BORK, and black cleaver. > 2 - his q you should max first, it can do a lot of damage even towards tanks. > 3 - his w should be maxed second, it does a fairly decent amount of damage with a serious knockup. > 4 - his e should be maxed last, it's still fairly decent of an ability, but you want to have as much bruising as possible. > 5 - his ult isn't mean to be a "massive damage nuke" it's supposed to be a way to regain health (mostly if you do it on tanks) and to wait for cooldowns a little longer. > 6 - he can be a massive god in a team fight because of his knockup, and if you build him a tank and engage with also your ultimate, you give no cheese about the enemy team. > 7 - if you also have the build I mentioned on #1, give him gargoyles to make him even more hard to deal with in a team fight. > 8 - this guy can hard counter some champions that are very powerful in team fights, such as yasuo, tryndamere, and so on. HE EATS THEM ALL FOR BEKFAST > > Shadow Assassin: > 1 - always build duskblade and youmuu's, lethality is a large part on this form. > 2 - you may also want to build boots of mobility to do a swift engage. > 3 - to make tanks cry, give him BORK and black cleaver. > 4 - max your w first since it's way more useful in the damage compartment in this form than the q. > 5 - max your q second the damage is still good. > 6 - max your e last yet again. > 7 - your ult you should use after 3 seconds, which is the duration of your passive in this form. Because it resets your passive plus it does a lot of damage. > 8 - when you are shadow assassin, you are most effective with doing quick kills to targets that are alone. Why would you ever build bork on Kayn? Neither form cares about attack speed or on hit damage. You shouldn't be building black cleaver on shadow assassin either. Either you or your target will be dead before you can apply full stacks of cleaver as an assassin. There is no reason for you to be building against tanks as shadow assassin, you'll never be able to "make them cry" regardless of what you build. Being shadow assassin means that the enemy team shouldn't have more than 1 tank in the first place, and you should be avoiding that tank when possible.
: Please drastically lower the lock-out period for Kayn's opposite transformation in Nexus Blitz :/
Here we are, more than a year after Kayn's release, and people STILL don't know how his passive works. Blue and red orbs do NOT contribute to the same bar. The progress meter tracks the highest number of orbs collected between Red and Blue, not the total. Orbs fill up your bar significantly faster as the game progresses, and that's one of the reasons people think the way you do. Also, keep in mind that Ivern will give Kayn red orbs if Ivern's auto attacks aren't empowered.
: What about Kayn?
I am also waiting for a new Kayn skin. Riot is probably too lazy to make the 3 models needed for a Kayn skin.
MrSpread (EUNE)
: The amount of LP you get or lose is absolutely ridiculous.
Winning/losing always will and should be the only factor that determines lp gains or losses. If performance mattered, people would just do things that made their score look good rather than necessarily doing what wins the game. Winning the game? Try to farm kills as much as possible rather than close it out. Losing the game? Time to afk in fountain to protect my kda. How you or your teammates happen to perform in a single game doesn't matter in the long run.
: I dont mean out of combat, i mean during combat
> [{quoted}](name=PhalseLogic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tsWBeZux,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-07-22T15:53:09.471+0000) > > I dont mean out of combat, i mean during combat HP regen is the most worthless stat during combat. Fights don't last that long.
: [Gameplay] Ghost poro provides 2 less AD than specified by the description
It's working as intended. Adaptive stats will only give the stated amount in ap, but slightly less in ad. You realize that 1 ad is worth more than 1 ap, right? A ratio of 3 ad to 5 ap is the norm, just look at the stats the domination and sorcery tree give.
: The 50/50 wins/losses Ranked Algorithm Is Not Fair
You've played 350 ranked games, so you're already at the elo you deserve. A 50/50 win rate is proof of this, not proof of an algorithm that's keeping you down. My advice is to choose a champion you will play every chance you can get while having just a couple of backups. If you're serious about climbing, there is no reason to bring 85 different champions to ranked like you have.
: Allow Kayn to pick what form he becomes
Why is there all this talk about 3 minutes, the lockout duration is 4 minutes? Anyways, I main Kayn and currently there is no need to change him in any way. Something else about Kayn would probably have to be nerfed if you made his powerspike more reliable.
: I mean his old dash reduced the damage he took from the taunted ennemies a bit. I think the worst that happened to him was they took away his ability to effectively splitpush. Old passive gave him a mini-demolish on what, 10-15s cooldown? Which could be reduced with AAs. Then you'd ult in fights after still applying some pressure. Now with his very low base AD you're best off just clearing the wave because the minions will do more damage than you will.
> [{quoted}](name=BlueVestGuy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Ht5Z5AWV,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-05T19:33:24.680+0000) > > I mean his old dash reduced the damage he took from the taunted ennemies a bit. > I think the worst that happened to him was they took away his ability to effectively splitpush. Old passive gave him a mini-demolish on what, 10-15s cooldown? Which could be reduced with AAs. Then you'd ult in fights after still applying some pressure. > Now with his very low base AD you're best off just clearing the wave because the minions will do more damage than you will. The only reason the current dash doesn't do that anymore is because spirit's refuge already makes Shen immune to a taunted target's damage, so having that extra damage reduction is redundant. Anyways, isn't that just proving my point? Having damage reduction attached to the taunt made it much more critical to land back then? Hell, I remember when its energy cost was 120 before they lowered it twice. Missing it actually meant you were crippled for the rest of the fight. It's funny that I've only racked up downvotes when nobody has offered valid criticism of my points. You can have your own reasons for missing old Shen, but what are wrong with mine?
: I build Shen as a fighter with Press the Attack and it's the Benz, and he's more vulnerable to missed taunts now since his pool is double the size of everyone else which heavily punishes missed taunts. I will say that I miss Shen being short and skinny because I liked him as the Mo Farah to Zed's Usain Bolt - Made for long distance rather than sprinting.
> [{quoted}](name=OurLestrade,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Ht5Z5AWV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-05T13:28:39.763+0000) > > I build Shen as a fighter with Press the Attack and it's the Benz, and he's more vulnerable to missed taunts now since his pool is double the size of everyone else which heavily punishes missed taunts. I will say that I miss Shen being short and skinny because I liked him as the Mo Farah to Zed's Usain Bolt - Made for long distance rather than sprinting. You definitely haven't played old Shen if you think new Shen more heavily punishes missed taunts. Pre-rework, a max rank Shen E costed 80 energy and refunded 40 energy per champion hit, so you're missing out on a half energy refund if you don't hit it. His shadow dash now costs 150 energy but still only refunds 40 energy per enemy hit(and only if you're level 13), so you're only missing out on about a quarter refund on the energy cost. To top it off, new Shen regens energy so much that it's actually a joke he still uses it. You do realize that at level 13, Shen's Q refunds 120 energy while it only costs 100 energy, right? Shen's W is a long cooldown and only uses 10 percent of his energy pool, So unless you're doing nothing but pressing shadow dash on cooldown without hitting anything, then Shen isn't punished at all for missing taunts energy wise. Edit: I just checked your profile, and unsurprisingly you only play bots so I don't think your opinion carries much weight.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8An0qtEN,comment-id=000d000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-03T18:30:01.629+0000) > > 1. Isn't that the whole point of the voting system, to express approval or disapproval? I wouldn't upvote anything I disagreed with. And your response seems unlikely considering the upvote/downvote count hasn't changed > 2. What's the fallacy? You can't deny that of all the comments, most of them are ones trying to prove me wrong, and rightly so because if all you have to say is "I agree" then you aren't adding much. Again, that's what the upvotes are for. I'm not literally saying that every person who disagrees with me is commenting. > 3. Is that all you're going to say because you know it's the truth? > 4. First of all, I haven't manipulated anything, that would be you guys. All I had to do was display two of Zed's quotes for people to understand that it didn't make sense. You guys are the ones that have to make up some deeper meaning for Zed in order to justify it. I refer you to my first response on this thread, if I insisted that I wasn't contradicting myself then I would be called delusional. You act as if I haven't disproven anything when I've been responding to basically every single post that calls me out, feel free to read all of them. If anything Occam's Razor supports my explanation. The writers making a small oversight seems like a simpler explanation than trying to reconcile two completely opposite ideas. 1. I forgot to. Happy? 2. If more people are agreeing with you? Why are there vastly more comments that are disagreeing? The fallacy is that you claim more people agree with you but they're just not commenting. Basic statistical analysis would reveal the problem with this. 3. Of course it's true. You can't argue against that. It's a basic fact. 4. Lemme explain something to you. You have yet to refute this so I will present this as fact. Zed is saying to kill anyone who disagrees with him. Anyone that forbids dark and illegal arts, anyone who "refuse[s] to embrace the shadows". This CLEARLY reinforces his "No technique is forbidden" line. Your entire argument is based on the semantics of "No technique is forbidden" must mean light or good or balanced etc techniques are allowed. "No technique is forbidden" "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" Neither of these statements disallow light or good or balanced What if someone uses these but still embrace the shadow? Still are open to Zed's teachings? Do you think Zed will have a problem? I quote you here. "All I had to do was display two of Zed's quotes for people to understand that it didn't make sense." Clearly most of us found that it made sense. I have thoroughly demonstrated to you that it makes sense. Most of the people here arrived to the same conclusion, clearly indicating that it makes sense to most of us. You have yet to explain why it doesn't make sense. Other than just putting the two quotes and giving a two dimensional sentence analysis. All of us have made the same points. I wonder why? I'll quote you again. "Saying "No technique is forbidden" must NECESSARILY include balanced and honorable techniques being " Alright then... Where in: "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" Does it forbid " balanced and honorable techniques "? Point this out to me. They're your words.
> [{quoted}](name=goodiesohhi,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8An0qtEN,comment-id=000d0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-04T19:56:04.892+0000) > > 1. I forgot to. Happy? > 2. If more people are agreeing with you? Why are there vastly more comments that are disagreeing? The fallacy is that you claim more people agree with you but they're just not commenting. Basic statistical analysis would reveal the problem with this. > 3. Of course it's true. You can't argue against that. It's a basic fact. > 4. Lemme explain something to you. You have yet to refute this so I will present this as fact. Zed is saying to kill anyone who disagrees with him. Anyone that forbids dark and illegal arts, anyone who "refuse[s] to embrace the shadows". This CLEARLY reinforces his "No technique is forbidden" line. Your entire argument is based on the semantics of "No technique is forbidden" must mean light or good or balanced etc techniques are allowed. > > "No technique is forbidden" > "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" > Neither of these statements disallow light or good or balanced > What if someone uses these but still embrace the shadow? Still are open to Zed's teachings? > Do you think Zed will have a problem? > > I quote you here. > "All I had to do was display two of Zed's quotes for people to understand that it didn't make sense." > Clearly most of us found that it made sense. > I have thoroughly demonstrated to you that it makes sense. > Most of the people here arrived to the same conclusion, clearly indicating that it makes sense to most of us. > You have yet to explain why it doesn't make sense. Other than just putting the two quotes and giving a two dimensional sentence analysis. > All of us have made the same points. I wonder why? > I'll quote you again. > > "Saying "No technique is forbidden" must NECESSARILY include balanced and honorable techniques being " > Alright then... > Where in: "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" > Does it forbid " balanced and honorable techniques "? > > Point this out to me. > They're your words. 1. Yeah the upvotes still haven't changed, all I see is an additional downvote. Seriously, quit trying to lie in order to support the notion that some of my upvoters don't see any contradiction. Next thing you know, I can start claiming that some of my downvoters actually do see a contradiction. 2. I literally just explained to you why. If you just agree, people tend to express that in an upvote, and people who disagree often have something to say. If my view is really so unpopular, explain how the first post that disagreed with me has -8 votes while my response to it has 17 votes. I'm wondering if you truly did bother to read every post on this thread. Again, it doesn't even matter which side is larger when you agree with the statement in 3. Also, "Basic statistical analysis would reveal the problem with this" is the cringiest thing I've heard from someone trying to act smart on a game forum. My response to the rest: To start off, I'm just going to copy paste an earlier post of mine because it's getting annoying having to explain the same thing over and over: "Let's assume there is a ninja that just wants to utilize PURELY martial arts without using shadows. This is a perfectly LEGIT technique that can stand on its own that Zed is FORBIDDING. What if I demanded you put ketchup on everything you ate. Eat whatever you want, but it has to have ketchup on it. This forbids the act of eating other perfectly awesome stuff with no ketchup even though most food would be better off without it. A banana with and without ketchup are two different things(or techniques), but Zed thinks you deserve death if you have an understandable preference for eating ketchup less bananas. The point I'm trying to make is that not every technique can just be compatible with shadows." So yes, the second statement certainly does disallow "light or good or balanced". You act as if these aren't valid techniques on their own, but they certainly are and Zed is certainly forbidding them. If you're just slapping on shadows to these things(assuming that it's even compatible which it probably isn't), it isn't the same technique anymore. "You have yet to explain why it doesn't make sense" - This actually ticks me off considering all the posts I've made that you're either too lazy to read or too daft to understand. Where in: "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" Does it forbid " balanced and honorable techniques "? If you're embracing the shadows, your techniques probably aren't balanced and honorable anymore. There is a good chance that shadows and honor are exclusive. And I'm going to say this for the last time, even if they were not and you could have them both, martial arts without shadows and martial arts with shadows are two different techniques and Zed is forbidding one of them. "No religion is forbidden. I'll kill anybody who refuses to embrace Christianity" Here's another equivalent to Zed's statement, so could you argue that this isn't contradictory either? You realize that it's possible to not embrace Christianity while not forbidding it either, right? You realize that if you really want to "embrace Christianity", then you are going to HAVE to give up some tenets of your previous religion(or lack thereof)? You can't just say "No worries about being a Muslim, just be a Christian at the exact same time". No, it's one or the other. Seriously, if you continue to insist that this wouldn't be complete bogus, then you're either deranged or a troll. Either way, you aren't worth any more of my time.
: > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8An0qtEN,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2018-07-03T17:35:29.650+0000) > > First of all, you act as if I'm alone in my thinking when this post has more upvotes than downvotes. It's just that all the ones disagreeing with me are the ones commenting. Second of all, it doesn't even matter how many people see it as one way, the majority isn't necessarily right. And just because the writer of these lines didn't intend for Zed to contradict himself doesn't automatically mean that the lines can't be contradictory, it was probably just an oversight. I'm sure most people don't intend to contradict themselves, yet the things they say can still be labeled as contradictions nonetheless. 1. You assume everyone who upvoted agreed with you? Huh Lemme un-upvote then. 2. "It's just that all the ones disagreeing with me are the ones commenting." I'm not even gonna address that fallacy. It's a waste of my time and energy. If you want me to I can. 3. "it doesn't even matter how many people see it as one way, the majority isn't necessarily right." Idealist are we? 4. "And just because the writer of these lines didn't intend for Zed to contradict himself doesn't automatically mean that the lines can't be contradictory, it was probably just an oversight. " Lemme explain something to you. Sorry to patronize. IF A+B+C makes sense and Y+X+Z doesn't. The simplest answer is usually right. Occam's Razor has been applied and successful for a thousand years. Do you see anything wrong with the scenario laid out to you. That your interpretation is a misinterpretation, acting under this assumption, there would be no contradiction. However, you have found one by manipulating meaning. The point is that unless you can disprove what me and my contemporaries have said, you're just proposing less-supported ideas.
> [{quoted}](name=goodiesohhi,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8An0qtEN,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2018-07-03T17:45:40.643+0000) > > 1. You assume everyone who upvoted agreed with you? Huh Lemme un-upvote then. > 2. "It's just that all the ones disagreeing with me are the ones commenting." I'm not even gonna address that fallacy. It's a waste of my time and energy. If you want me to I can. > 3. "it doesn't even matter how many people see it as one way, the majority isn't necessarily right." Idealist are we? > 4. "And just because the writer of these lines didn't intend for Zed to contradict himself doesn't automatically mean that the lines can't be contradictory, it was probably just an oversight. " > Lemme explain something to you. Sorry to patronize. IF A+B+C makes sense and Y+X+Z doesn't. The simplest answer is usually right. Occam's Razor has been applied and successful for a thousand years. Do you see anything wrong with the scenario laid out to you. That your interpretation is a misinterpretation, acting under this assumption, there would be no contradiction. However, you have found one by manipulating meaning. The point is that unless you can disprove what me and my contemporaries have said, you're just proposing less-supported ideas. 1. Isn't that the whole point of the voting system, to express approval or disapproval? I wouldn't upvote anything I disagreed with. And your response seems unlikely considering the upvote/downvote count hasn't changed 2. What's the fallacy? You can't deny that of all the comments, most of them are ones trying to prove me wrong, and rightly so because if all you have to say is "I agree" then you aren't adding much. Again, that's what the upvotes are for. I'm not literally saying that every person who disagrees with me is commenting. 3. Is that all you're going to say because you know it's the truth? 4. First of all, I haven't manipulated anything, that would be you guys. All I had to do was display two of Zed's quotes for people to understand that it didn't make sense. You guys are the ones that have to make up some deeper meaning for Zed in order to justify it. I refer you to my first response on this thread, if I insisted that I wasn't contradicting myself then I would be called delusional. You act as if I haven't disproven anything when I've been responding to basically every single post that calls me out, feel free to read all of them. If anything Occam's Razor supports my explanation. The writers making a small oversight seems like a simpler explanation than trying to reconcile two completely opposite ideas.
: It really isn't us assuming Zed's way of thinking. If someone has already tried to explain this to you. Think about it. If multiple people interpreted something one way and you interpret it another. I'm sure it is fine to drum up discussion but there must be a reason everyone else had roughly the same interpretation. The fact remains. "No technique is forbidden" "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" are not mutually exclusive except in YOUR version. We can sort of apply Occam's razor in this situation. "No technique is forbidden" "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" Makes sense the way I see it. According to you, I'm not alone. "No technique is forbidden" "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" Is contradictory the way you see it. Something you are arguing with others about. While writing these lines, the intent was most likely not to make it contradictory, thus the most likely option is that, "No technique is forbidden" "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" Is not contradictory. This isn't exactly how Occam's Razor works but I'm sure you follow my reasoning.
> [{quoted}](name=goodiesohhi,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8An0qtEN,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-07-03T17:20:51.717+0000) > > It really isn't us assuming Zed's way of thinking. > If someone has already tried to explain this to you. > Think about it. If multiple people interpreted something one way and you interpret it another. > I'm sure it is fine to drum up discussion but there must be a reason everyone else had roughly the same interpretation. > > The fact remains. > "No technique is forbidden" > "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" > are not mutually exclusive except in YOUR version. > We can sort of apply Occam's razor in this situation. > "No technique is forbidden" > "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" > Makes sense the way I see it. According to you, I'm not alone. > "No technique is forbidden" > "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" > Is contradictory the way you see it. Something you are arguing with others about. > While writing these lines, the intent was most likely not to make it contradictory, thus the most likely option is that, > "No technique is forbidden" > "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" > Is not contradictory. > This isn't exactly how Occam's Razor works but I'm sure you follow my reasoning. First of all, you act as if I'm alone in my thinking when this post has more upvotes than downvotes. It's just that all the ones disagreeing with me are the ones commenting. Second of all, it doesn't even matter how many people see it as one way, the majority isn't necessarily right. And just because the writer of these lines didn't intend for Zed to contradict himself doesn't automatically mean that the lines can't be contradictory, it was probably just an oversight. I'm sure most people don't intend to contradict themselves, yet the things they say can still be labeled as contradictions nonetheless.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8An0qtEN,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-07-02T17:52:45.670+0000) > > Saying "No technique is forbidden" must NECESSARILY include balanced and honorable techniques being allowed as well, not just the dark and edgy stuff. If all of a sudden you are threatening to kill ninjas with different styles, then yes that is a contradiction. They are allowed. That's not what Zed has a problem with. He has a problem with THEIR unnallowance of darkness. hence kill the people who reject darkness. He's not saying kill people because they use another style. He's saying kill them for being afraid of Zed's and not accepting it..
> [{quoted}](name=goodiesohhi,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8An0qtEN,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2018-07-03T03:42:01.973+0000) > > They are allowed. That's not what Zed has a problem with. He has a problem with THEIR unnallowance of darkness. hence kill the people who reject darkness. He's not saying kill people because they use another style. He's saying kill them for being afraid of Zed's and not accepting it.. You are arguing the same thing that other's already have on this forum post, and I responded to them. You guys are really trying to assume this is Zed's way of thinking and even if it was, it's really a distinction without a difference. At the end of the day, Zed outright says "Balance is a lie - we are the true ninjas" so I think it's safe to say he actually has a problem with the technique itself.
: Why is this a discussion? "No technique is forbidden" Means that any technique no matter how dark or soul destroying is allowed. "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" actually reinforces the above line by basically meaning kill the ones who don;t embrace the shadows, meaning kill all who are afraid of it and stuff. It's not contradictory. He doesn't want to kill them for being on the light side or what not. He wants to kill them for NOT being on the dark side. There is a difference. "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows." =/= "Kill all the goody-two-shoes ninjas."
> [{quoted}](name=goodiesohhi,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8An0qtEN,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-07-02T17:20:47.462+0000) > > Why is this a discussion? > "No technique is forbidden" Means that any technique no matter how dark or soul destroying is allowed. > "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows" actually reinforces the above line by basically meaning kill the ones who don;t embrace the shadows, meaning kill all who are afraid of it and stuff. It's not contradictory. He doesn't want to kill them for being on the light side or what not. He wants to kill them for NOT being on the dark side. There is a difference. > "Kill all ninjas who refuse to embrace the shadows." =/= "Kill all the goody-two-shoes ninjas." Saying "No technique is forbidden" must NECESSARILY include balanced and honorable techniques being allowed as well, not just the dark and edgy stuff. If all of a sudden you are threatening to kill ninjas with different styles, then yes that is a contradiction.
: > [{quoted}](name=Vyniadus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jfuXFviR,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-02T15:33:05.658+0000) > > I main Kayn and I think he is in a perfectly fine spot, I don't want him buffed or nerfed. Every champion needs their weaknesses, and even base Kayn has surprisingly good burst with electrocute. Also, it's not like Kayn is the only jungler that can't get away with ganking at 30 percent health, that's just a bad idea in general. No, he was saying that Kayn's base form is so clunky that even if someone's at 30% HP, there's a good chance they'll get away or kill you instead. I mean, I disagree with that, but I do think that something should be done so that Kayn gets to unlock the rest of his kit sooner, since 15 minutes into a game is pretty much after it's been decided nowadays.
> [{quoted}](name=Kuronii Lumiira,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jfuXFviR,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-07-02T16:17:27.487+0000) > > No, he was saying that Kayn's base form is so clunky that even if someone's at 30% HP, there's a good chance they'll get away or kill you instead. > > I mean, I disagree with that, but I do think that something should be done so that Kayn gets to unlock the rest of his kit sooner, since 15 minutes into a game is pretty much after it's been decided nowadays. Oh sorry, yeah I misread that. But yeah, the only reason you wouldn't be able to kill somebody at 30 percent health as Kayn is if they are already at their tower and you don't have ult. Anyways, they already gave Kayn a decent buff to his early game soul collection and the only reason they didn't go further is because they found it obnoxious for lane Kayn to transform so quickly. It's like Nasus, there is nothing wrong with having to struggle a little bit to get more power. If the meta doesn't favor that, that's fine but maybe another meta will. But personally, I don't feel like I am having trouble succeeding with Kayn.
: Kayn's base form sucks and needs a buff
I main Kayn and I think he is in a perfectly fine spot, I don't want him buffed or nerfed. Every champion needs their weaknesses, and even base Kayn has surprisingly good burst with electrocute. Also, it's not like Kayn is the only jungler that can't get away with ganking at 30 percent health, that's just a bad idea in general.
Jarring (NA)
: nobody cares about your alts. don't be mad because someone explains the reasoning behind something you make fun of.
> [{quoted}](name=Jarring,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=8An0qtEN,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2018-07-02T08:27:45.827+0000) > > nobody cares about your alts. > don't be mad because someone explains the reasoning behind something you make fun of. You really think that guy was an alt? Take another look, I play Kayn literally every chance I get, he plays whatever.
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Vyniadus

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