Meddler (NA)
: From memory we're looking to buff her mana per level (40 instead of 30), letting her cast a bit more and likely adding a bit more power in average skill games than really high MMR/pro since mana management tends to be more optimized there.
Please consider totally or partially reverting the W radius nerf from last year. W feels unusable without having already landed her stun.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 14
Hey Meddler, why did the mana refund mechanic on Ryze W get scrapped? I thought that it was a really cool way to incentivize offensive W usage.
: Early 9.10 Patch Discussion
Hey Meddler, what are your thoughts on Jinx? I feel like there isn't enough skill expression in her kit and currently she's strong to a point where first timers perform too well on her.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 11
Hey Meddler, Do you guys have plans to restore the AP ratio on LeBlanc's RQ detonation? At the moment the ability doesn't scale with AP, despite the tooltip stating it having an 80% ratio. The initial spell still deals 70/140/210 (+ 0.4 AP) as intended. However, the detonation damage is 140/280/420 **(+ 0 AP)** instead of the listed 140/280/420 (+ 0.8 AP).
iDarkWind (EUW)
: In my opinion they should change how her kit works in general. Her W is her main source of damage, mobility and waveclear, there's no point in maxing anything else, wich means that her W will have low cooldown since the early game, because she'll max it first for the reasons I meantioned. So in my opinion, Riot should look for a way to make LB players decide if they want more single target burst or mobility and waveclear, and by saying this I mean finding a way to make maxing Q a good idea, wich would help a lot LB enemies to deal with her, since she wouldn't get so much CD on her mobility spell until the mid game. Just my opinion, and I am not even sure if that would fix her at all, but it's a start.
>Her W is her main source of damage, mobility and waveclear For gameplay purposes, this is a good thing. If she uses W for one of the reasons you've listed, you can punish the other two. If you're pushing LB in and she is forced to W the wave, you have 14s to abuse her. Likewise if she uses it to trade, you can push her in. Riot said W dealing damage was the main pillar of her revert – it's much better than an uninteractive lane where she spammed Q.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 25
Hey Meddler Any thoughts on LeBlanc's power curve and balance state? IMO, as a LB main, she is too strong early and too weak late. I can understand if this was deliberate to prevent competitive viability, but in solo queue it makes her early game feel 10x more oppressive. The buffs to early W CD/cost were completely unnecessary considering her already-great synergy with Runes Reforged. Please make her a point of discussion on Monday. This version of LB is the most polarizing I've ever seen. She feels worse than ever to lane against and she feels worse than ever to fall behind on. I think her early game is so overtuned that she hits the "ahead" case more than "behind".
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 27
Hey Meddler, what does the initial data say about LB's release power level? Anecdotally speaking, compared to S6 LB, this one has much stronger early and much weaker late. I think she's in need of an Irelia-like power redistribution. In light of 8.9 waveclear nerfs, I think LB's early is going to be far too strong, and would like to see some power shifted to her atrocious late game.
Hibeki (NA)
: I appreciate you going through the effort to find it, but that's not very applicable nowadays. But its just not the case anymore. Reddit is far and away the source they listen and communicate with more than the boards. Besides the meddler gameplay thoughts, Rioter's dont really make many posts on the boards other than to quell rumors on the boards going around. Thats not my idea of communication. Maybe it used to be better (I dont remember it being THAT much better), but now its definitely the reddit they listen to.
Reddit's rules are clear: https://i.imgur.com/j9oQrE6.png
Poske (EUNE)
: Thanks Azubk for downgrading Le blanc. Thanks
Old LB was 100x more fun to watch in competitive. Old LB didn't rely on Revolver/Lich Bane clone double procs for damage. Faker was a monster on old LB because he had great mechanics and fast reactions. New LB sucks in lane against anyone who can outpush or abuse W cd (95% of mid laners). W max on old LB was better for game health and gave LB more options. New Lb's passive and R give her freedom but are unhealthy.
: You're right that these changes aren't likely to fix Lux. I don't disagree. They're pretty much a stopgap until we solve underlying issues with how the best way to influence mid lane is to wave clear well. If we wanted to pull the trigger on just making her E waveclear like the meta drivers, we could, and I have been considering it. The reason we haven't is that her E is still pretty fundamentally unfair if it's also cheap or does more damage, and that adding a bunch of minion damage to it is a slippery slope that could lead to the same treatment being applied to a bunch of champions, and I'm trying to avoid that kind of approach to this. I do think there could be some merit to changing her Q speed or something, but I think that too is subject to being a buff in the "wrong place." I understand that is probably a more unfortunate or unsatisfying response than you'd like, but I think it's pretty accurate for now.
At present it is nearly impossible to dodge her E in lane. Champions with no mobility spells will always get hit because the effect radius is so large (350). Most champions can only move a maximum of (0.25 + 1000/1300) * 335 = 341 units during Lucent Singularity's cast + travel time when used at max range. Perhaps reducing the effect radius slightly would open avenues to buff its CD, waveclear, or utility?
: Shiv has always seemed a bit too generalist to me, since it can do everything you just mentioned. It’s never the wrong choice, and that’s reflected in its popularity. An idea I’ve had floating around for quite a while is that the ability to crit from shiv should be swapped with the quick energized shot charge from rapidfire. It makes more sense to me that the item that does one big hit would be the item you get to amplify your burst. And shiv would still be useful for everything else it does, it would just be less bursty. Rapidfire has become more popular than it used to be, but almost exclusively because it makes your shiv better. Obviously it would need number tuning beyond just swapping the effects, but do you think a change like that would be in the realm of possibility?
E Zaire (NA)
: I'm far removed from a Syndra main, but in my experience playing her, I think reducing the wind up time on dark sphere would be pretty useful. It's already damn short (1 second, I think), but if it were just that much faster (.5s maybe), the skill expression in a snap Q-E combo to save yourself or a teammate would be particularly satisfying. Of course, it also makes it more swift to manage a Q-W as well. It also mas minimal impact on Q-R (or Q-Q-R or however many spheres you have down) as compared to live. Instead of the orbs still surviving for an extra two seconds that you dropped before, there is instead a less punishing window to get one more down before hitting R.
So make her Q spheres undodgeable?
: you know what? instead of having a long drawn out debate I'll just let you be wrong
I don't get it. I'm not being sarcastic. How is Fizz's waveclear worse?
: She still has her R for waveclear, it just means she won't have it back up by the next minion wave to try and kill her laner with over and over again.
You literally ignored everything I just said. Lb's ult is not on the same tier as an actual mage ult. It's a glorified basic ability at best.
: And actual Mages don't have their equivalent damage on a 30s cooldown.
Post-6 LB loses a lot of burst since she needs to use W for gapclosing instead of damage. She relies on rank 1 Q, E, and R to deal damage. Not only that, but can you give an example of another midlaner who needs to use their non-spammable ult for waveclear?
: why does leblanc need wave clear but fizz don't? serious question
Fizz has waveclear. His E does way more damage than LB's W.
Hupsis (EUNE)
: The feedback is obviously gonna be negative. Dunno what you are expecting here. The ult at a higher cooldown makes LB less of a problem to play against. More windows to counter her early game which is not necessarily a bad thing.
The ult having a higher cooldown on any champ would make them easier to play against.
AzuBK (NA)
: LeBlanc Mini-Revert Context
The R CD is unbelievable. Compared to current LB, you've removed from R: 1. the ability to cast Shadow of the Rose, 2. the ability to Mimic any spell, and 3. the clone spawn Compared to reworked LB, the R cooldown should have been REDUCED, not INCREASED. This is without even considering the fact that, compared to old (pre-6.22) LB, R was net nerfed by backloading RQ and nerfing RW. I didn't believe my eyes when I saw a 110 second cooldown at rank 1. Old LB was already terrible at waveclear. Push-heavy lanes like Ekko, Taliyah, and Aurelion Sol are going to become even more impossible than they already were.
AzuBK (NA)
: LeBlanc Mini-Revert Context
The R CD is unbelievable. Compared to current LB, R lost: 1. the ability to cast Shadow of the Rose, 2. the ability to Mimic any spell, and 3. the clone spawn The cooldown should have been REDUCED, not INCREASED. This is without even considering the fact that, compared to old LB, R got straight-up nerfed by backloading RQ and nerfing RW.
: > I know that the balance and rework teams aren't currently looking at making changes to LeBlanc We are. We're hoping we can go to PBE for feedback as soon as next week, though those things can change.
Thanks for the update! Can we expect any new mechanics on her kit? Or will it just be a hybrid of old/new?
Meddler (NA)
: We'll get LB onto PBE whenever things are ready enough. My guess was that would be sometime during the 8.5 cycle (though still not shipping in 8.5). If August thinks 8.6 is more likely then 8.6 is more likely though, he and AzuBK are much more involved in the details of that work than I am.
Can you provide insight on the revert's direction? You've mentioned "going back to things that were healthier on old LB" and "making her damage less frontloaded", but both are ambiguous and can be interpreted in multiple ways.
: (copying from above) Nah, the change is just for stuff that drops starting with 8.5—that's why we're announcing the change early. Generally like a two weeks heads up is how we try to do it when we announce price drops or any kind of "generosity" buff like this
Will the drop rate for ultimate/mythic shards be reduced?
Meddler (NA)
: What in particular makes you prefer dual pen?
% pen does the same thing since it effectively converts some of your phys/magic damage to true. Either change is fine.
: Hi Meddler. What about increase the damage of the Q of {{champion:136}} to reward the work of doing it bigger and bigger? Or activate immediately the Q to do something for that champs that jump in all your face and you cant do anything ? (hi assassins). Any of this changes will help him a lot.
He doesn't need help. Sol is strong atm. >Or activate immediately the Q to do something for that champs that jump in all your face and you cant do anything ? (hi assassins). AKA remove his counterplay
Meddler (NA)
: During the 8.5 cycle is quite likely, not certain if today or not though.
I offer you 50% on tacos if you get AzuBK to push them today
: Good read, any news on the Leblanc changes and if they will be on the PBE soon?
>During the 8.5 cycle is quite likely, not certain if today or not though. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/1czrgEgw-quick-gameplay-thoughts-february-21?comment=00060000
: @Meddler please, please talk about Lissandra. {{champion:127}} I don't know what happened but she feels SO bad since the start of season 8. She wasn't strong before but now she is just bad. I love her but I can completely understand her low pick rate. I feel like I'm dealing no dmg, I have no sustain and no range. And there are better champions for CC. Even if I manage to find the perfect spot in team fights it's just not rewarding at all. Please just pick Lissandra as one of the topics for Fridays post.
I'd love if Liss got slightly higher range on her Q or faster projectile on her E.
: Would be awesome to read some more details on LeBlanc and the changes, if they're coming this cycle eventually with more explanations of course :D
They're coming in the 8.5 cycle.
: I'll also hang around in this thread as I've been testing these changes pretty actively if anyone wants to ask any questions
How long until you guys nerf Archangel's? Looks ridiculously overtuned at the moment. It costs the same as Luden's and GLP but it gives 95 AP on purchase (50 base + 19.5 from Archangel's mana + 25.5 from level 10 base mana). That's without even counting the bonus mana from Tear and extra benefits from the other passives/later Seraph's. There's no reason for any champion (early or scaling) to buy GLP or Luden's over Archangel's.
Uranium (EUW)
: The amount of cancer champs in the game, and the fact that CertainlyT hasn't been fired/publicly executed yet is what drives this. Imagine playing against any one of these champions: {{champion:22}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:67}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:29}} {{champion:4}} {{champion:23}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:157}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:105}} I'm not saying these champions are easy to play by any means, but the fact that Riot thinks it's ok to let a champion be like this even though only 1 person is having fun, just boggles my mind. Takes these for example: {{champion:68}} {{champion:427}} {{champion:267}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:236}} If they mess something up, you can see that, and you can abuse that, they have weak points. At what point does Yasuo have a weak point? After he wastes W! What if I'm melee though? When his Ultimate isn't up! His Ultimate has a very short cool down, and he still does more damage with his Q than he does with his ult. When he misses his tornado! Nope. Lategame it's back up in 3 seconds. At what point, do these champions have weak points? You either beg for your jungler to camp them for you, or you lose.
: No. Pre-Rework leblanc had some seriously busted damage and on top of her passive, made her also really annoying to deal with.
Old LB had less damage in a full combo.
: Umm no . Killing a person in less then a sec and having 0 counter play is healthy how?
Ifneth (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=TrevorAlu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lrjvpybr,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-01-24T08:01:31.329+0000) > > True, but how does that compare to Zed or Talon who can quickly get their dmg off and still escape? They don’t, and both have to use their ultis to burst.
Their burst is slower, but they have compensation because they can go invisible/untargetable. LB doesn't have either. And going back to her distortion pad isn't an option because she removes herself from the fight.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 19
>Sometimes conversations around counterplay get really focused purely on 'can I dodge the ability' and/or 'what can I buy to counter this champion'. Both of those can be good types of counterplay certainly, tunnel visioning only on those risks ignoring a lot of other good options though. Seems like this is something you guys tunneled on when reworking LB. >Counterplay's spread different parts of the game, from how you mechanically use your abilities, to how you play strategically (e.g. when to roam), to what items to build, to what champs you pick, to taking advantage of long enemy CDs etc. You are reiterating what the greater part of LB mains have been saying for a long time! >There's a lot of counterplay to Nasus as a whole Pre-reworked LB had counterplay as a whole. New LB had her old counterplay removed and received an intrinsic weakness that became more pronounced as (the game progressed and) other champions could one shot her faster while her 1.5s delay remained static. Then some of her old waveclear counterplay was *artificially* reintroduced by gating her Q bounce damage. The champion's design is a mess. Compared to old LB, new LB's sheer codework is huge, making her more susceptible to bugs, less scalable (design-wise), and too complex for beginners to pick up. Plus, she's a lot less fun to play, which I assume is something that was ignored when making her "fair" to play against.
: Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 8.1
Your personal opinion on the state of LB and what you'd like to see become of her?
Meddler (NA)
: I don't have any update on LB at present sorry. Certainly still well aware of the need for work there, still intending to do it and paying attention to posts like these. Can't answer any of those questions with confidence beyond that the Rengar stuff will almost certainly come out first. Edit: Could people not downvote posts like this just because it's not what you want to hear please? Quite understand the desire to see change faster. Downvoting doesn't have affect that at all though, it just makes it so this response is hidden for people like the two posters above looking for a reply. If you think this is a poor call on our part, post about it wherever you wish of course, but please don't just bury the conversation.
Even if it conflicts with your personal visions/philosophy of champion playstyle, if the majority of players (including pro and high elo across various regions) overwhelmingly support having old LB, isn't it your duty as Gameplay Lead to give the players what they want? For the low elo players who complain LB has no counterplay, that's just a symptom of a larger problem: their inability to make micro/macro decisions. Their inexperience shouldn't be accommodated by ruining the kit of the champion who has been as historic and iconic as Zed or Riven. This goes without saying: overspending developer time on temporary, tentative changes is in the interests of *no one*, especially when there is a much simpler solution that is guaranteed to satisfy a majority.
BleKz (EUW)
: Any news about LeBlanc and ap itemization?
I want the changes to come as fast as possible but I think they're stuck in a chicken/egg situation. They have a couple ways to make her feel like old LB: 1. **Make W deal damage.** The problem is that the W nerf is reverted, which means the problems she had in early S7 are back. If they revert W damage they would also have to: 2. **Make Q Sigil of Malice again.** A waveclear nerf, and also prevents the W > Q trading pattern. Q > W at least allows the opponent to react (or stay out of Q range in the first place). Whereas W > Q is impossible to dodge since the enemy has to predict her W. If this change was to happen, it wouldn't make sense for the 1.5s delay or R toggle to exist either. Basically, it's impossible for them to make a hybrid of old/new LB that is balanced. They can't change her unless they revert her completely (which they're against, for some reason). My opinion is that old LB had no issues but Riot chose to cater to the game's low elo demographic and unnecessarily reworked her. Low elo players think new LB is fairer but the reality is that low elo LeBlancs just suck. The champ's skill floor is too high for them to play her effectively.
: Freljord Taliyah and/or any Anivia skin. I love winter <3
Watch as you magically get those skins in your shop. Riot knows how to make $$$.
: Hi Meddler, Any changes coming to assassins hurt by the assassin rework like Fizz, Rengar, and Shaco? Also, any reason you continuously ignore any related questions unless it has to do with Leblanc?
Because they made LB even more unhealthy to play against with the rework.
Meddler (NA)
: We've got some Zyra stuff underway aimed at helping her solo lane out. Goal would be around power neutral for support Zyra. Possible those changes make it in for 7.24, we thought the same thing about 7.23 though and then other stuff emerged that was more urgent so we'll see.
Please don't make the buff the same as Brand's.
Poske (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=canker sores,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q2sKEJzf,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-11T09:42:16.329+0000) > > Preamble: > > To those who might not know, Riot ran playtests on some experimental LeBlanc changes. The feedback was negative, so they&#x27;re scrapping it and considering &quot;faster&quot; ways to change her. > > This is a copy of a reply made to Meddler [here](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/PAtL0xel-quick-gameplay-thoughts-november-10?comment=002700000003). I am posting it as a discussion for better visibility. > > > > TO: Riot Meddler > > Please give this a thorough read. > > Your first instinct when you see &amp;quot;revert&amp;quot; might be to ignore the comment, but hear me out: **until you guys find an appropriate solution**, why not just revert her to her previous iteration? > Hi Ex #1 Lb world here I have to address some of your innacurate points. Curently I am like top 100 I intend to reclaim #1 lb world status > 1. New LB has a ton of bugs I assume no one will address because she is being reworked eventually. There are 2 annoying bugs / QOL changed she needs Code her sigil the same way pyroclasm is so that it keeps bouncing if a previous target/minion died from something else She sometimes cannot auto attack when her sigil starts re-jumping wtf is that you have to move in order to AA > 2. New LB&amp;#039;s kit is too complex. Because she is balanced around her maximum potential and her skill floor is high, she is too unfriendly for low elo/new players to pick up. Old LB had a simple design while having a high skillcap, which made her rewarding for low and high elo players alike. I completly agree with that but she doesnt need rework because of this. High elo players can make the same argument about garen. I didnt see this champion in years because he is int pick at my elo > 3. New LB lacks predictability. Being able to mimic W at all times ensures an escape, whereas old LB was punishable if W was on CD and Q/E was cast last. True this is the biggest strenght she gained and why she received so many nerfs. I am fine with her losing AOE damage for this. They can reduce her distortion speed to > 4. New LB is only made viable by awkward itemization. Building an AD/AP hybrid item feels horrible on an AP ~~assassin~~ mage. **Typical Le blanc complaining thread you all rush gunblade **and wonder why you are worthless dhasfhsfklhasdiofhas. Check my match history how many gunblades you see. Building gunblade as her core item was never correct Correct build is revolver > nlr/sheen > sheen/lichbane/ludens > Lichbane/ludens > Protobelt > Voidstaff **Try this build and you ll find her more fun.** Additional note you dont build sorceres shoes with this build. Ludens + lichbane rush puts you at 398 aether wisp + either of those makes you fast to. Lb generaly doesnt need more then 380 speed Alt+Rightclick allows he to proc lichbane / revolver. This is WHY YOU NEVER FKING EVER fuse revolver so fking early. Now bind Alt + rightclick to something else for easier use Gunblade used to be situational swap for proto but now with spellwamp mastery 12.5% going gunblade ever is incorrect granted it was never her core. Sad to see 99% leblancs building her subpar > 5. New LB demands too much key input precision. Pressing R locks you out of snapping back to W. Accidentally fat-fingering R twice is extremely punishing when you mean to use R(Q/W/E). Karma and Heimerdinger don&amp;#039;t have this issue. So does riven your point again? This isnt nessearly a bad thing. League is easy game as far as key input precision goes. We shouldnt rework a champion just because you cant play her. Granted old le blanc didnt need rework to but I prefer this one by like 1-2% > 6. New LB is too slow. This is by-far the greatest point of complaint against new LB. _Static_ delays on W, Sigil cook, and Sigil cooldown remove the smooth, combo-reliant identity of the champion. An increased cooldown on R, the fact R takes two button-presses, and enforcing Q over W max are just some auxiliary factors that further slash the tempo of her gameplay. I am consistently one shoting people in 0,4 seconds. She is also more Zappy now with her faster distortion (It shouldnt be this fast they can make her less safe by reducing its speed) With your subpar build yes she can feel delayed. Example instagib combo E>Q>R(Q)>AA and clone AA>W. It should look really smoth. just build her correctly.. > 7. New LB has a non-interactive laning phase. The current Q max Pantheon-style laning phase is extremely oppressive against melee champions, since she does not need to use W offensively and can just E if they jump her. It&amp;#039;s boring to play against and boring to play as. Le blanc in generaly can feel hard to interact to BUT DEFINETLY NOT IN LANING PHASE. > 8. New LB lacks tradeoffs. With the old W max and shorter R CD, LB was forced to decide between trading/skirmishing or waveclearing. Each option was punishable: W&amp;#039;ing to trade and potentially getting ganked, CCed, or even out-traded, waveclearing with W-R but not having R for a fight, or saving R and being unable to clear the wave quickly. Each option was exploitable and made playing as/against her interactive. She doesnt lack trade offs. She is heavly reliant on her distortion CD. She still has to use distortion on a wave. People rarely used her R(W) to clear waves. W was in generaly enough > 9. New LB suffers in an era where shields/burst mitigation are prevalent. Nullifying Orb, Hexdrinker, Sterak&amp;#039;s Gage, Death&amp;#039;s Dance, and shielding supports make her 1.5s delay brutally pronounced, particularly in teamfights. Old LB had natural/organic time delays with her mark/detonation system that telegraphed her spell rotation (Q/R(Q) telegraphs the use of W or E), and allowed her to match enemies that might burst her in _less_ than 1.5s (i.e. late game ADCs, mages, assassins). She doesnt suffer if you are good with her. But ADC matching assassin burst is sort of annoying. Nullifying orb is sort of nessesary due to removal of lots of mr runes > 10. New LB&amp;#039;s SFX sucks. whatever > All of these factors, among others, make the current LeBlanc extremely unenjoyable to play. Old LB was not without faults, but she was balanced and enjoyable to play. New LB has been reduced to a state where she feels awful, without being any more healthy to play against (except a static delay, compensated by overblown Sigil damage and unnecessary utility on R). [Riot phroxz0n agrees that new LB feels &amp;quot;not so great&amp;quot; to play.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeBlancMains/comments/78yzv2/playtesting_opportunity_at_riot_on_some_leblanc/doy7zm9/) She is unenjoyable to play for you because you do nothing correct with her. From build to combos. Dont make me download any of your games and write essays. Her Popularity speaks for itself > I believe that since nobody on the balance team plays LeBlanc, there is no one to play devil&amp;#039;s advocate and there is inadvertent bias against her. From your team&amp;#039;s perspective, it&amp;#039;s understandable why you oppose a revert: Then riot is full of liers. They do have le blanc mains. I am certain they do. dont feel like finding an excact post saying that but I have seen it on boards directly from Riot
>I completly agree with that but she doesnt need rework because of this. High elo players can make the same argument about garen. I didnt see this champion in years because he is int pick at my elo Yeah I agree. I was just pointing out an aspect where old LB was clearly superior. >Typical Le blanc complaining thread you all rush gunblade and wonder why you are worthless dhasfhsfklhasdiofhas. Check my match history how many gunblades you see. Building gunblade as her core item was never correct If Protobelt was the optimal build then I assume Korean/Chinese innovators (who play the game at a much higher level than any server's Challengers) would have began building it by now. I've tried Protobelt too. The instant damage and slow from Gunblade is too good to give up. >Alt+Rightclick allows he to proc lichbane / revolver. Revolver is viable on LB because her clone autos can do damage.... basically LB gets free power _through a bug!_
Rioter Comments
: It sounds like eventually you're going to have to make some difficult compromises on LeBlanc - game health vs. her identity.
LeBlanc is only 'unhealthy' because they are not taking an holistic approach to understanding her design. Their philosophy is that, at all times, _if champion A can kill champion B, then champion B should be able to kill champion A_. Given the nature of old LB's quick burst and snap-back with W, this was clearly not always possible. The thing is, if you survive LB's attempt to kill you, you've already beaten her. Assassinating a single target is her only motive in a fight and she is useless if she cannot accomplish it. All her burst is upfront single-target so she has no DPS or AOE to offer unlike other viable midlaners.
xNAYRUx (NA)
: Agreed. All she really needed was a shorter teather range and a buffer on the q r combo so like 40/60 split dmg so a Q R combo couldnt kill u which really that was almost impossible to do but people still complained about it.
One of the best ways I think they could keep old LB is by nerfing the cast ranges of Q and E slightly (25 to 50 units). Buff her AA range to 550 so it is the same as other mages. This means she would have to stand much closer to assassinate and adds extra risk to her - something they've been aiming for - without sacrificing the smooth gameplay that LB players crave.
Meddler (NA)
: It didn't go great. Resulted in an interesting playstyle we might want to use on a new champ at some point, didn't feel like LB though. We need to figure out what to do instead as a result as soon as pre-season stuff's been dealt with a bit more. Given LB work's been going on a while that probably means prioritizing something faster over trying for a larger overhaul.
Please give this a thorough read. Your first instinct when you see "revert" might be to ignore the comment, but hear me out: **until you guys find an appropriate solution**, why not just revert her to her previous iteration? Current LeBlanc has a massive list of problems which make playing/playing against her a bad experience: 1. New LB has a ton of bugs I assume no one will address because she is being reworked eventually. 2. New LB's kit is too complex. Because she is balanced around her maximum potential and her skill floor is high, she is too unfriendly for low elo/new players to pick up. Old LB had a simple design while having a high skillcap, which made her rewarding for low and high elo players alike. 3. New LB lacks predictability. Being able to mimic W at all times ensures an escape, whereas old LB was punishable if W was on CD and Q/E was cast last. 4. New LB is only made viable by awkward itemization. Building an AD/AP hybrid item feels horrible on an AP ~~assassin~~ mage. 5. New LB demands too much key input precision. Pressing R locks you out of snapping back to W. Accidentally fat-fingering R twice is extremely punishing when you mean to use R(Q/W/E). Karma and Heimerdinger don't have this issue. 6. New LB is too slow. _Static_ delays on W, Sigil cook, and Sigil cooldown remove the smooth, combo-reliant identity of the champion. An increased cooldown on R, the fact R takes two button-presses, and enforcing Q over W max are just some auxiliary factors that further slash the tempo of her gameplay. 7. New LB has a non-interactive laning phase. The current Q max Pantheon-style laning phase is extremely oppressive against melee champions, since she does not need to use W offensively and can just E if they jump her. It's boring to play against and boring to play as. 8. New LB lacks tradeoffs. With the old W max and shorter R CD, LB was forced to decide between trading/skirmishing or waveclearing. Each option was punishable: W'ing to trade and potentially getting ganked, CCed, or even out-traded, waveclearing with W-R but not having R for a fight, or saving R and being unable to clear the wave quickly. Each option was exploitable and made playing as/against her interactive. 9. New LB suffers in an era where shields/burst mitigation are prevalent. Nullifying Orb, Hexdrinker, Sterak's Gage, Death's Dance, and shielding supports make her 1.5s delay brutally pronounced, particularly in teamfights. Old LB had natural/organic time delays with her mark/detonation system that telegraphed her spell rotation (Q/R(Q) telegraphs the use of W or E), and allowed her to match the burst of enemies that might kill her in _less_ than 1.5s (i.e. late game ADCs, mages, assassins). 10. New LB's SFX sucks. All of these factors, among others, make the current LeBlanc extremely unenjoyable to play. Old LB was not without faults, but she was balanced and enjoyable to play. New LB has been reduced to a state where she feels awful without being any more healthy to play against (except a static delay, compensated by overblown Sigil damage and unnecessary utility on R). [Even Riot phroxz0n agrees that new LB feels "not so great" to play.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeBlancMains/comments/78yzv2/playtesting_opportunity_at_riot_on_some_leblanc/doy7zm9/) I believe that there is inadvertent bias against LeBlanc since nobody on the balance team plays LeBlanc, so there is no one to play devil's advocate. From your team's perspective, it's understandable why you oppose a revert: * conceding to the demands of players casts weakness and doubt on the gameplay designers. * designer time spent on current LB's FX, design, and gameplay would be for naught. * the playerbase would have adjusted to current LB now, and a revert would force players to re-adjust. * mains of Rengar/Fizz/Shaco would be in uproar, demanding the same for their champions. I can assure you the player merit gained by making her kit simpler/predictable/enjoyable again far outweighs the disadvantages of this change. Let Reddit and the LoL boards be a telltale sign: any discussion about old LB is met with swaths of players reminiscing of old LB's enjoyable playstyle. [Even high-elo players sympathize with this sentiment.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeBlancMains/comments/6q7ww8/compilation_of_high_elo_player_opinions_on_leblanc/) In Korea/China (which are underrepresented on Reddit), LB was extremely popular due to the mechanical and macro demands of her kit, which Eastern players excel at using to potential. Compared to the other assassin reworks, there is no doubt that LeBlanc's was of highest controversy. Old LB had pronounced weaknesses (poor waveclear, single-target damage, waveclear/mobility/damage spell tied together) that were exploitable. New LB (and subsequent changes) had these weaknesses removed and was given power, but that was stripped away bit-by-bit, leaving a shell of a clunky champion sitting in limbo. A change at this time of year would be well-met since preseason is prime time, if anything. Everything in consideration, I ask that you cast aside any pride, any prejudice against LB/LB players, and any visions you may have for the game balance/design in regards to LeBlanc. Even if it's temporary, reverting LB to her old self would show you have the players' best interests in mind. For that, many casual, hardcore, and pro LB enthusiasts would be dearly grateful. {{champion:7}}
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 10
I heard you guys just tested a new iteration of LeBlanc. Since it qualifies as "contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship", I'd like to ask: How did that go and what can we expect?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 1
Any word on how the LB changes tested today went?
Skyroar (EUW)
: Hi, I'm a diamond ASol player. Here are some less drastic changes that I recommend to make ASol more accessible to new players: 1. Allow him to move through units (makes hitting the stars a lot less clumsy, which is currently a tough barrier of entry). 2. Allow him to cancel his Q early, so he doesn't feel like a free punching bag versus divers (it currently creates a really bad impression to new players who want to learn him). 3. Increase the power of his non-W passive, so it's more rewarding and not quite as niche as it currently is, considering the screen clutter it adds to the game versus its actual usefulness. But those things do not fix how oppressive ASol may be to his opponents, right? And they are straight buffs to a champion that's already strong, right? So let's look at things to tone down now: 4. Make his W passive deal less damage, but perhaps give it a more niche/ context-specific utility. This, alongside suggestion n.3, forces Asol players to get closer in range and rely less on the safety of W's radius. 5. Alternatively, make his passive scale in damage with each hit, starting weaker but gradually growing stronger the more times you hit it on the same opponent during a short window of time. This gives time for your opponents to go back and avoid being killed. 6. If n.4 or n.5 end up weakening Sol too much, consider adding some damage back to his skill shots. TLDR; Make ASol less clunky, make him rely more on his non-W passive for riskier plays and riskier farm, make him rely less on his W passive to avoid lack of counterplay in certain matchups. There, no need to drastically change the passive of the champion, like your earlier proposal intended to.
>Allow him to cancel his Q early I hope you understand that his Q needs to stay the way it is. For the same reason Cassio can't W on top of herself, Aurelion Sol's Q shouldn't be able to be popped instantly. Otherwise melee matchups would be unplayable against ASol, who can just insta-Q and then E away.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 4
Can we have a "LeBlanc Gameplay Update: Goals and Directions" similar to how we [had one with Azir](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/HsZurxEO-azir-gameplay-update-goals-and-directions)? Yeah I understand that the update will be unveiled by 7.19, but we've been in the dark about these changes for so long. If the community got some direction updates then we'd be able to provide feedback before you guys push to live.
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