kaironen (NA)
: I'm not sure if I'm understanding it correctly but, won't that make his top lane and mid lane cs 100%? That would be so strong and probably op in lower elo.
> [{quoted}](name=kaironen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YYVpaRyo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-16T08:42:10.965+0000) > > I'm not sure if I'm understanding it correctly but, won't that make his top lane and mid lane cs 100%? That would be so strong and probably op in lower elo. No, the mark only applies to things that it hits. He wouldn't be credited with farm that his passive didn't mark. This is just to grant credit of things that he is in auto-attack range of that his passive randomly hits to low HP that gets lost to minions/turrets. If you're standing next to an enemy minion that your minions are targeting, and your rank 1 passive hits it at ~120 HP, you're going to lose the minion. This would prevent that. If his passive hits a minion at full HP, the 2 second duration is (I think) short enough that he would still have to last hit it normally, but long enough that it won't be lost to the turret if it's the minion currently being targeted.
: I had to afk briefly to settle my baby back to sleep, wasn't even gone long enough to get the in game pop up telling me I was afk. Sat down, told them why I was afk and apologized. Team called me a ~~pussy~~ and told me to punch my baby back to sleep. I asked for a x9 and said I'm going afk for good. I'm not looking forward to any potential punishment from Riot but there are times when I think its absolutely acceptable to afk. I may have "ruined the game for 4 innocent people" but if someone's language and behavior is so disgusting it ruins my personal experience I have the right to remove myself from it.
> [{quoted}](name=Greenette,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=El3y1F0P,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-12-16T05:17:59.160+0000) > > I had to afk briefly to settle my baby back to sleep, wasn't even gone long enough to get the in game pop up telling me I was afk. Sat down, told them why I was afk and apologized. > > Team called me a ~~pussy~~ and told me to punch my baby back to sleep. I asked for a x9 and said I'm going afk for good. > > I'm not looking forward to any potential punishment from Riot but there are times when I think its absolutely acceptable to afk. I may have "ruined the game for 4 innocent people" but if someone's language and behavior is so disgusting it ruins my personal experience I have the right to remove myself from it. Did the whole team say that, or just one guy? Because I'm totally anti-"Fuck the whole team because this one guy was mean to me" mindset. On point, there shouldn't be an LP penalty for coming back to a DC'd game and winning. Not even if you rage quit. There should be harsher penalties for obvious rage-quits, though, and you should still report the guy that left.
Rioter Comments
Dr Mercy (NA)
: If you have no defenses, and a tank gets on you, hitting you with everything they have, than yes, they should. Why else would you try and focus a tank, if they're just going to be slight cc bothers. They need to be a danger for carries to need to have people peel. Not even going to bother with your hyperbole. Ahri oneshotting a tank? Really? *Really??* Unless they're fed, you're not getting one shotted.
> [{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a5Zou4nK,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2017-12-15T17:41:00.850+0000) > > If you have no defenses, and a tank gets on you, hitting you with everything they have, than yes, they should. Why else would you try and focus a tank, if they're just going to be slight cc bothers. They need to be a danger for carries to need to have people peel. > They're supposed to lock down carries to prevent them from doing damage and allow their team to kill them. Not just take them out themselves.
: IT LOOKS SOMETHING LIKE THIS: you die twice to {{champion:91}} . talon then roams bot twice, and their team kills your bot lane and jungle both times. meanwhile in mid lane, you havn't pushed out your lane or followed. top lane traded 1 for 1 with his laner twice. their ADC {{champion:119}} then gets a double kill on your bot lane because he is playing Draven and has a lead. 5-10 minutes later, your team loses the first team fight because their bot, jungle and talon are super far ahead of your team. You survived because you played far back. YOU FED MID Does that geometry add up to you now?
> [{quoted}](name=The Real A Twice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEggFXnF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-14T05:00:11.813+0000) > > IT LOOKS SOMETHING LIKE THIS: > > you die twice to {{champion:91}} . talon then roams bot twice, and their team kills your bot lane and jungle both times. meanwhile in mid lane, you havn't pushed out your lane or followed. top lane traded 1 for 1 with his laner twice. their ADC {{champion:119}} then gets a double kill on your bot lane because he is playing Draven and has a lead. 5-10 minutes later, your team loses the first team fight because their bot, jungle and talon are super far ahead of your team. You survived because you played far back. > > YOU FED MID > > Does that geometry add up to you now? Cool hypothetical story, bro.
: So TLDR of this kha is fine, PTA is just literally broken atm?
> [{quoted}](name=iamthegoatofwar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UIEyivEr,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-13T19:04:19.862+0000) > > So TLDR of this kha is fine, PTA is just literally broken atm? Maybe. If it's a Kha problem it would just be his stealth. I wonder if it's the same for Vayne/Shaco.
: > [{quoted}](name=ProbablyUezsch,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UIEyivEr,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-12-13T18:21:36.200+0000) > > That is wrong when someone who have 3 dmg items is able to kill someone who does not have any kind of resist items? {{sticker:sg-lux-2}} it's wrong for an ADC to have burst higher than that assassin especially when the assassin has to be in melee range
> [{quoted}](name=hhaavviikk,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UIEyivEr,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-13T18:45:34.550+0000) > > it's wrong for an ADC to have burst higher than that assassin especially when the assassin has to be in melee range That assassin has stealth that is supposed to work in that situation. Trist would have only gotten off the first autoattack.
Rioter Comments
: Why the radio silence on sona
It's not radio silence. It's cosplay.
Kaeblen (NA)
: Call me Devil's Advocate, but...
Counterargument: {{champion:27}} {{champion:17}} are the worst designs in all of League.
: The existence of tristana, ezreal, and xayah make me want to die as a lux main
Don't forget Zoe. {{champion:142}} has {{item:1033}}{{item:3802}} in lane phase {{champion:99}} has {{item:1033}}{{item:3802}} in lane phase {{champion:142}} lands EQ, Lux now has 20% HP {{champion:99}} lands Q, AA, ER, AA, Zoe now has 40% HP
: > [{quoted}](name=Wanfear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2017-12-11T02:49:54.784+0000) > > I think a big part of the problem is that ADCs and mages both get % increases in movespeed on multiple items, while bruisers only get movespeed from TF or BC. It's really easy to be kited. This is a big part of the reason I wanted to double the MS on Tri Force for melee only champions. In fact, the numbers I picked were picked based SOLELY on the doubling of the move speed. We could easily assign flat numbers that would accomplish a similar thing and would likely be more able to be balanced.
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2017-12-11T02:56:50.510+0000) > > This is a big part of the reason I wanted to double the MS on Tri Force for melee only champions. In fact, the numbers I picked were picked based SOLELY on the doubling of the move speed. > > We could easily assign flat numbers that would accomplish a similar thing and would likely be more able to be balanced. I think making zeal and wisp items have flat numbers as well would solve some balance problems.
: So the State of Top Lane isn't peachy, here's a potential solution for itemization
I think a big part of the problem is that ADCs and mages both get % increases in movespeed on multiple items, while bruisers only get movespeed from TF or BC, or Dead Mans I guess but less popular. It's really easy to be kited, and impossible to stick to a target long enough with all the CC and protection provided now.
Wanfear (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:30:57.884+0000) > > You're still making my points here... I've been quite clear about the ineffectiveness of that item being a leading cause as to why bruisers are not part of the meta. It's a core item intended for them and it doesn't actually help them consistently win games. That is quite a problem to have. Particularly when other champs and champ classes CAN use that item effectively. Who? Who is using this item effectively? What class is it? Nobody is building this item because bruisers are out of the meta, and they use it best. A bruiser getting TF is still the largest single item power spike in the game. You said "marksmen". Who not named Ezreal is building this item right now?
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a0001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000006,timestamp=2017-12-10T20:29:05.617+0000) > > You were rude in the initial response last night using all caps to state something factually incorrect to yell at me and then have proceeded to attempt to derail the thread using nothing but antagonistic remarks while failing to even once provide a single piece of constructive contribution. > The all-caps comment was probably unnecessary, but also wasn't my first response. You replied to my first response by listing every ranged champion that's had a very brief period, a long time ago, of building TF and acting like they were abusing it in an overpowered way, and none of those iterations have had anything to do with bruisers being out of flavor this preseason. The all-caps comment was more in response to the new trend of Boards being completely anti-ADC and acting like any ranged champ building anything is an abuse of an item, not necessarily to you, but it sounded like you were going down that trend. You also didn't even react to that comment in any meaningful way until now, and none of my other comments were antagonistic. Trinity Force Twisted Fate was never an abuse case, and didn't have any significant play time. Trinity Force/IBG tank Fizz and Ekko were cases of abuse that were nerfed specifically for that purpose, and they aren't even ranged champions. The one point I've been trying to make this entire time is that Ezreal is not a class of champion, and he's not interacting with Trinity Force is any different manner than he has for years. He's abusing Kleptomancy to get the Trinity Force power spike faster. Other marksmen can't do that. That's why it's not a class problem for marksmen. It's an Ezreal problem with his Q. Fixing Ezreal won't fix bruisers. Making Trinity Force stronger for bruisers will make that item insanely OP, and making it have a melee-only passive will result in making it too cost efficient for melee or cost inefficient elsewhere.
: What dumb things did you do/say when you started League?
I don't remember the stupid noob builds I probably had, but I do specifically remember thinking Smite was better than Ignite because it did more true damage.
Barkley (NA)
: How's morgana jungle, post patch?
It looks pretty decent. She doesn't have any problems clearing with her W always being up.
Geneman (EUNE)
: Why are there warmogs on aram? The whole concept spits the spirit of aram in the face.
Even though sustain is a necessary evil in ARAM, can we agree that no matter your stance, {{champion:16}} {{item:3083}} in that mode is completely ridiculous?
: Can Cosmic Insight perhaps get some decent competition?
This makes a lot of sense. It really has no competition. I can understand the damage reduction on Celestial Body because there should be a tradeoff for just "hey here's a ton of free HP", but the penalty is too high. They should probably either replace that rune entirely, or lower the HP and remove the damage penalty. 50 HP would probably be fine. It would be like the old Veteran's Scars.
Wanfear (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:30:57.884+0000) > > You're still making my points here... I've been quite clear about the ineffectiveness of that item being a leading cause as to why bruisers are not part of the meta. It's a core item intended for them and it doesn't actually help them consistently win games. That is quite a problem to have. Particularly when other champs and champ classes CAN use that item effectively. Who? Who is using this item effectively? What class is it? Nobody is building this item because bruisers are out of the meta, and they use it best. A bruiser getting TF is still the largest single item power spike in the game. You said "marksmen". Who not named Ezreal is building this item right now?
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a0001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004,timestamp=2017-12-10T19:18:07.646+0000) > > You haven't provided a single valid debate point. > > You seem unable to understand that if ezreal is a marksman and is currently the only champ abusing an item (aside from maybe hecarim using it as a jungler but his success has a lot to do with dark harvest and predator at the moment as he was out of the meta prior to those changes despite using tri force) while bruisers are wholly ineffective and lose regardless of whether or not they build it then there is a disconnect. > > You've derailed my thread and been extremely antagonistic. > > Have yet to post something factually correct. > > And have a long history of doing this exact thing in gameplay for the last 2 years. > > Shut the actual fuck up and stop derailing my article. I put a lot of work into this and you have no right what so ever to derail it in this fashion while being this rude and failing to contribute a single valid point to the discussion since all your invalid points were already addressed. Get the fuck out of my thread. > > Is that clear enough for you? How am I derailing it? I'm asking you to elaborate about how Trinity Force is being abused by a class of champions when there's only one ranged champion regularly being picked and building it. He's not even being picked to abuse Trinity Force. He's being picked to abuse Kleptomancy and thus build Trinity Force faster, because it's still a huge powerspike for whoever builds it, bruisers included. You disagreeing with a point doesn't make it invalid. Ezreal is widely acknowledged to be a special case that abuses any on-hit interaction. No other marksman does what Ezreal does, which means it's not a class of champions outshining bruisers, it's a champion. Ezreal can get away with it because he has a support to mitigate the loss of a damage keystone and maximize Kleptomancy efficiency. If bruisers could finish Trinity Force by 12 minutes thanks to having a support to hold their hand, they'd be unstoppable. Buffing Trinity Force for bruisers instead of the rest of their build (or better yet, reducing power in the rest of the game) will result in TF being a ridiculous overpowered item. You've spent the whole conversation since I got here putting words in my mouth, telling me I've then made your point using your own words, insulting my intelligence, and then telling me to leave the thread. Now you're just being completely disrespectful.
Wanfear (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:30:57.884+0000) > > You're still making my points here... I've been quite clear about the ineffectiveness of that item being a leading cause as to why bruisers are not part of the meta. It's a core item intended for them and it doesn't actually help them consistently win games. That is quite a problem to have. Particularly when other champs and champ classes CAN use that item effectively. Who? Who is using this item effectively? What class is it? Nobody is building this item because bruisers are out of the meta, and they use it best. A bruiser getting TF is still the largest single item power spike in the game. You said "marksmen". Who not named Ezreal is building this item right now?
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a0001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:58:36.639+0000) > > Is what class now? > > And in your own words is "the only one performing" with it. > > Meaning what class of champions is currently performing well with the item? > > Your rudeness and disrespectful tone is not appreciated, please show yourself out. I'm not being disrespectful. I'm asking you to tell me who is using this item. Ezreal is not a class. Ezreal is a champion.
: What's the 'rarest' skins you got from Hextech Crafting?
Reindeer Kog, Hot Rod Corki, Ice Toboggan Corki, Corporate Mundo, Whistler Village Twitch, Soulstealer Vlad
Wanfear (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:30:57.884+0000) > > You're still making my points here... I've been quite clear about the ineffectiveness of that item being a leading cause as to why bruisers are not part of the meta. It's a core item intended for them and it doesn't actually help them consistently win games. That is quite a problem to have. Particularly when other champs and champ classes CAN use that item effectively. Who? Who is using this item effectively? What class is it? Nobody is building this item because bruisers are out of the meta, and they use it best. A bruiser getting TF is still the largest single item power spike in the game. You said "marksmen". Who not named Ezreal is building this item right now?
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a0001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:40:33.410+0000) > > We've already been over this and you even provided an example of a champion and class that is more consistently winning games using the item than the class the item was intended for. > So you're just going to put words in my mouth and say I'm making your point, got it. Ezreal isn't a class. Tell me who is building this item.
: > [{quoted}](name=Wanfear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:27:27.302+0000) > > Wow. That's not at all what I said. I said there's not some separate class building this item all the time and outshining bruisers with it. Bruisers are out of the meta, and Ezreal is Ezreal. You're still making my points here... I've been quite clear about the ineffectiveness of that item being a leading cause as to why bruisers are not part of the meta. It's a core item intended for them and it doesn't actually help them consistently win games. That is quite a problem to have. Particularly when other champs and champ classes CAN use that item effectively.
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:30:57.884+0000) > > You're still making my points here... I've been quite clear about the ineffectiveness of that item being a leading cause as to why bruisers are not part of the meta. It's a core item intended for them and it doesn't actually help them consistently win games. That is quite a problem to have. Particularly when other champs and champ classes CAN use that item effectively. Who? Who is using this item effectively? What class is it? Nobody is building this item because bruisers are out of the meta, and they use it best. A bruiser getting TF is still the largest single item power spike in the game. You said "marksmen". Who not named Ezreal is building this item right now?
: > [{quoted}](name=Wanfear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:18:06.666+0000) > > Are you sure about that? I just went through every 5v5 game at the All-Stars tournament. Here's every game with a Trinity Force: > > https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/WMC2TMNT1/330349?gameHash=21e9904daf1e2567&tab=overview > > https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/WMC2TMNT1/330219?gameHash=b2bfafda42bc62a1&tab=overview > > Two games. Total. In both games, Camille was picked and had a Trinity Force. In one game, Ezreal had a Trinity Force. The problem is that the meta is completely revolving around tanks, ADCs, protecting the ADCs, and shredding the tanks. Very few bruisers do that, and supports are extremely overtuned towards protecting the ADCs/tanks that most bruisers can't do their job. Trinity Force isn't the problem. So let me get this correct: You're evidence that bruisers perform fine with it and it's not more advantageous on another class are a pair of games in which the bruiser builds it and loses and a different champion class builds it and wins? That's really your evidence? Well, ok then. Thanks for helping prove my point instead of your own... (Also, i agree. Tri force is not the problem. The dynamic between ranged versus melee for damage out put oriented champions is. One of the ways to combat that discrepancy is to identify things both classes use but only one class seems to be successful with.)
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:21:59.309+0000) > > So let me get this correct: > > You're evidence that bruisers perform fine with it and it's not more advantageous on another class are a pair of games in which the bruiser builds it and loses and a different champion class builds it and wins? > > That's really your evidence? > > Well, ok then. Thanks for helping prove my point instead of your own... > > (Also, i agree. Tri force is not the problem. The dynamic between ranged versus melee for damage out put oriented champions is. One of the ways to combat that discrepancy is to identify things both classes use but only one class seems to be successful with.) Wow. That's not at all what I said. I said there's not some separate class building this item all the time and outshining bruisers with it. Bruisers are out of the meta, and Ezreal is Ezreal.
: > [{quoted}](name=Wanfear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T09:24:24.119+0000) > > No. That's literally what a meta build is. > > I was pointing out how ridiculous it is to start out by saying how Jax and Irelia are struggling to be viable, and then blaming it on ranged champs building Trinity Force when those 2 bruisers have been getting by far the best use out of it for over 4 years. Ah, I see your problem and why you don't understand now. You believe that the strength of trinity force on one class does not affect how it is used on other classes. Bruisers clearly don't get the best use out of it because this is a class that is being slowly eliminated from competitive viability. Meanwhile we see it (the item) a ton in competitive play on a separate class of champions. Which of course lead and leads to nerfs for the item which ultimately impact said bruisers more than the other classes and perpetuates the cycle of a weakening and ineffective class of champions. Now these bruiser champions still USE this item because its about as effective as items get for them, but its purely because they don't have other options that would be effective. This of course leads us up to the premise of the changes I proposed to tri force. And the following work rounding out some items to bring back that element of choice and reestablish a healthy balance point lever for tuning ranged versus melee mechanics.
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T09:31:09.202+0000) > > Ah, I see your problem and why you don't understand now. > > You believe that the strength of trinity force on one class does not affect how it is used on other classes. Bruisers clearly don't get the best use out of it because this is a class that is being slowly eliminated from competitive viability. > > Meanwhile we see it (the item) a ton in competitive play on a separate class of champions. > Are you sure about that? I just went through every 5v5 game at the All-Stars tournament. Here's every game with a Trinity Force: https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/WMC2TMNT1/330349?gameHash=21e9904daf1e2567&tab=overview https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/WMC2TMNT1/330219?gameHash=b2bfafda42bc62a1&tab=overview Two games. Total. In both games, Camille was picked and had a Trinity Force. In one game, Ezreal was also picked and had a Trinity Force. The problem is that the meta is completely revolving around tanks, ADCs, protecting the ADCs, and shredding the tanks. Very few bruisers do that, and supports are extremely overtuned towards protecting the ADCs/tanks that most bruisers can't do their job. Trinity Force isn't the problem. We definitely don't see Trinity Force "a ton" on a separate class. We barely see the item at all unless it's picked on a bruiser or Ezreal/Corki. We don't see bruisers because of damage creep to where tanks can just deal the damage instead, CC everywhere, and the insane amount of protection in the game.
: > [{quoted}](name=Wanfear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T09:15:02.350+0000) > > Why would they normally take any item that isn't the current best in slot? That makes no sense. If Trinity Force is the best option for a champion, they will buy it. Is Corki abusing it right now? Is Reaver being abused by Lucian because he could be building BoRK instead? So clearly we agree then that an item is being abused if its being used over other items because it's so much more effective that it's not worth taking any other. One of the things this thread is attempting to do is create some choices that diversify gameplay through itemization for bruisers and, tangentially, other classes as well, in an effort to improve the game state and prevent any one particular item from dominating in such a fashion as to warp the meta based on it's effectiveness. We are considering every item in terms of its abuse-ability in as many respects as we can and then coming up with ways to balance items by tweaking them or offering a counterpoint item that creates a choice which can then be used as a balance point.
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T09:20:35.279+0000) > > So clearly we agree then that an item is being abused if its being used over other items because it's so much more effective that it's not worth taking any other. > No. That's literally what a meta build is. I was pointing out how ridiculous it is to start out by saying how Jax and Irelia are struggling to be viable, and then blaming it on ranged champs building Trinity Force when those 2 bruisers have been getting by far the best use out of it for over 4 years.
: > [{quoted}](name=Wanfear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a00010000,timestamp=2017-12-10T08:25:28.202+0000) > > PSA: RANGED CHAMPS BUILDING AN ITEM ISN'T ALWAYS ABUSE PSA: A ranged champ taking an item they normally would not take in a certain meta because a niche build has become overly strong is the literal definition of "abuse". When we are discussing the three aforementioned champions each was subsequently nerfed when their synergy with the item in a particular meta began to warp it.
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T08:37:07.180+0000) > > PSA: A ranged champ taking an item they normally would not take in a certain meta because a niche build has become overly strong is the literal definition of "abuse". When we are discussing the three aforementioned champions each was subsequently nerfed when their synergy with the item in a particular meta began to warp it. Why would they normally take any item that isn't the current best in slot? That makes no sense. Their best current build for their kit is their meta. If Trinity Force is the best option for a champion, they will buy it. Is Corki abusing it right now? Is Reaver being abused by Lucian because he could be building BoRK instead?
: > [{quoted}](name=Wanfear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-12-09T18:09:11.289+0000) > > Completely lost me when you started talking about Trinity Force. That item is dominated by melee champions. The only ranged users I can think of are Ezreal and Corki, but Ezreal doesn't really count since he just abuses _everything_, and neither of them go top lane. They definitely don't make better use of it than Jax, Camille, or Irelia. Trinity force has also been abused by other ranged champs: {{champion:96}} {{champion:67}} and even on the occasional jungle {{champion:4}} .
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000a0001,timestamp=2017-12-09T18:39:21.053+0000) > > Trinity force has also been abused by other ranged champs: {{champion:96}} {{champion:67}} and even on the occasional jungle {{champion:4}} . PSA: RANGED CHAMPS BUILDING AN ITEM ISN'T ALWAYS ABUSE
: Teemo Life is hard this season
: Ornn also has 10sec cooldowns. Ornn requires a lot of positioning. Ornn has CC that he has to set up. Being a point-click ADC and doing nothing but expecting to win a trade just based off a stand-still exchange is lunacy, despite being true against most bruisers now. Armor Pen and MR is a situational call for ADC.
> [{quoted}](name=Rand0mH3r0X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEAZlwlk,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-12-09T19:02:44.007+0000) > > Ornn also has 10sec cooldowns. Ornn requires a lot of positioning. Ornn has CC that he has to set up. > > Being a point-click ADC and doing nothing but expecting to win a trade just based off a stand-still exchange is lunacy, despite being true against most bruisers now. > > Armor Pen and MR is a situational call for ADC. Q/W/E have 7/9/12 second cooldowns at rank 5 respectively. Ornn will always have max CDR. His cooldowns are incredibly short. His ult has a 39 second cooldown with Ultimate Hat and max CDR.
: Instead of complaining about ADC's in general, complain about the no-skill OP ADCs
Meanwhile, Draven hits you for 300 damage at level 4-5 with Aery and {{item:3134}} .
: > [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApQTEXdd,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-09T18:32:26.745+0000) > > so whats your stake in this? are you just white knighting or are you that bothered about an extra 5 seconds in champ select until the season starts? i am not the one whining because he has the most time out of everyone to tinker with your mastery pages yet say that he does not have enough time. You are last pick. Start tinkering right from the start. Stop trying to make a problem where there is none. You have more than enough time to adjust anything you want. Use it. You could have been given 30 more seconds and you would still not have enough time if you need any more time at all when you are LAST PICK!
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApQTEXdd,comment-id=00030000000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T18:55:26.446+0000) > > i am not the one whining because he has the most time out of everyone to tinker with your mastery pages yet say that he does not have enough time. You are last pick. Not everyone decides what champ they're playing before the enemy picks.
: @Riot Why is Ornn allowed to be so tanky and do so much damage?
Why whatever do you mean? https://i.imgur.com/bD5kasp.png[/img]
: > [{quoted}](name=SatomiKun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApQTEXdd,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-09T18:22:59.655+0000) > > When you are last pick, you got the extra time while the other guys are all picking. > > Never had a problem getting my runes when I was last pick. not when your lane opponent is last pick aswell and drafts before you. im not deciding on the champion im playing before my lane opponent did if i can avoid it. that would be retarded. top lane is heavily counterpick influenced. you cant just pick whatever the fuck you want or half the time youll screw yourself over. excuuuse me that i didnt want to pick garen into fucking teemo and needed a moment to decide which champion ill pick instead and then what rune setup i take. this is how people constantly counterpick themselves and then get smashed. if i dont know which champion im going to pick, i dont know which rune setup i need yet.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApQTEXdd,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-12-09T18:24:04.236+0000) > top lane is heavily counterpick influenced. you cant just pick whatever the fuck you want or half the time youll screw yourself over. You can if Ornn's not banned =)
ANFU (NA)
: Are you new to the game? That has always hows it has been....
> [{quoted}](name=ANFU,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ApQTEXdd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-09T15:37:59.120+0000) > > Are you new to the game? That has always hows it has been.... Are you new to the game? That's not always how it has been. That was added in the last couple years. Not exactly new, but not how it's always been.
Ivokros (NA)
: ARAM Dodging and Losing Good Picks Over and Over
No. This penalizes everyone else that gets a bad roll in the lobby. I imagine it would also increase queue times since people who saved the same champ couldn't be matched together, and people will generally always be trying to roll/save the same handful of champs. This would also cause games to have the "OP" champs even more often. Just force whoever dodges to keep their champion and lose their rerolls. It should reduce the amount of dodges because dodging would serve no purpose. They wouldn't even need a longer than normal queue time penalty.
: So the State of Top Lane isn't peachy, here's a potential solution for itemization
Completely lost me when you started talking about Trinity Force. That item is dominated by melee champions. The only ranged users I can think of are Ezreal and Corki, but Ezreal doesn't really count since he just abuses _everything_, and neither of them go top lane. They definitely don't make better use of it than Jax, Camille, or Irelia.
Dasdi96 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XGtmMqZE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-08T03:18:29.015+0000) > > Triumph, more farm and kills (like, a ton more), and possible turret takedowns. > > actually, it's probably just the kills. You had 1 kill. He had **23** Won't having many kills have diminishing returns since the enemy will be worth less gold? I have never seen someone have more than 800 GPM even if absurdly fed.
> [{quoted}](name=Dasdi96,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XGtmMqZE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-08T03:24:46.354+0000) > > Won't having many kills have diminishing returns since the enemy will be worth less gold? I have never seen someone have more than 800 GPM even if absurdly fed. Kog had less than 800 gpm. Kill gold value is reset if the enemy got a kill. Or Kog didn't kill the same champs more than 5-6 times, so the value wasn't rock bottom yet.
vmahen (EUW)
: Rylais feels like a wasted slot
Add mana to Rylais? lol... ITT: Fuck Morde.
needHymn (NA)
: If I started a new account, I'd be diamond within a week.
Plot twist: Riot does target individual accounts, and those lines of spaghetti code are why Mordekaiser and Azir have so many bugs and why they can't fix death recap.
: WHICH 6300 CHAMPION SHOULD I BUY WITH NEW RUNES
Ekko works both mid and top. Lissandra can, too, but Ekko can be built as an AP bruiser and still do his job. I'm actually thinking that tank Ekko and Akali will make a comeback after the Grasp changes. So there's that cancer to deal with again.
Rioter Comments
xGunna1 (EUW)
: Zoe has no counter in lane
: I'm trying to provide a rational and open discussion point that a Rioter would want to read or engage with. I have strong feelings about this myself, but I'm specifically choosing to keep them out of the discussion. If you cannot do the same then please go make your own comment instead of bogging up mine with warmongering and bitterness.
> [{quoted}](name=HalcyonDweller,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7vU4XZuz,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-06T17:51:48.196+0000) > > I'm trying to provide a rational and open discussion point that a Rioter would want to read or engage with. > > I have strong feelings about this myself, but I'm specifically choosing to keep them out of the discussion. If you cannot do the same then please go make your own comment instead of bogging up mine with warmongering and bitterness. Fair enough. There are a bunch of popular OE threads atm, so I won't clutter. I think Riot needs to find a middle ground. Either revert pre-nerf shards back to original value, or set shards to a higher value until the "new avenues" are released. There's a thread that suggests 35% of unlock value, which I think is fair. 3 shards = permanent of equal tier. I'd set it to 50% myself until the system is ready. The old disenchant value was 60%.
: Totally misleading video that could lead to grasp being changed for absolutely no reason because silver idiots like to pile onto bandwagons. Getting that many grasp stacks would take around 7 entire minutes of straight autoattacking. You'd have to stay in combat after getting those stacks to keep them, and in an actual game that would shove your lane and get you ganked.
> [{quoted}](name=NefariousQuack,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5mF5JmAG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-06T17:48:06.745+0000) > > Totally misleading video that could lead to grasp being changed for absolutely no reason because silver idiots like to pile onto bandwagons. > > Getting that many grasp stacks would take around 7 entire minutes of straight autoattacking. > You'd have to stay in combat after getting those stacks to keep them, and in an actual game that would shove your lane and get you ganked. This video never makes the claim that it will work in a PvP match, and Riot would know that. This requires a training dummy.
: > [{quoted}](name=Wanfear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7vU4XZuz,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-12-06T17:41:00.366+0000) > > they are basically throwing their money away for essences at an extremely steep exchange rate. > > Read: scam Technically yes. But that is not the main point of my comment.
> [{quoted}](name=HalcyonDweller,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7vU4XZuz,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-06T17:43:22.241+0000) > > Technically yes. But that is not the main point of my comment. I know, but Riot is going the way of the new trend of turning games into gambling loopholes that get marketed to kids. I'm not sugarcoating anything for them if that's the path they want to take.
: This was well reasoned and I approve greatly of the OP's argument. I would like to add that I believe there should be separate types of chests that are given for honor and given for real money. They could have the exact same rewards, however the one with real money spent on it should offer larger disenchant values so that the player does not feel like they are throwing their money away if they don't get something they care about. Because lets be real here, if somebody buys a loot chest with real money and only gets stuff they will disenchant, they are basically throwing their money away for essences at an extremely steep exchange rate. And that would feel extremely shitty and is more likely to make them never spend money on it ever again. tldr; Riot does deserve value protection from players getting too much value out of free loot such as honor rewards, however that protection is being improperly invoked on loot that players use real money to acquire.
> [{quoted}](name=HalcyonDweller,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7vU4XZuz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-06T17:39:45.771+0000) > they are basically throwing their money away for essences at an extremely steep exchange rate. Read: scam
: Wait, what are you complaining about exactly? That even without the XP boost you would have leveled up? No shit. It boosts your XP gain. That’s it.
> [{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mgMIaL0t,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-12-06T00:35:42.443+0000) > > Wait, what are you complaining about exactly? > > That even without the XP boost you would have leveled up? > > No shit. It boosts your XP gain. That’s it. XP is directly tied to in-game currency now, which has a value. He's saying that the XP boost costs more RP than the RP value of in-game currency you gain from using it, which makes it useless after level 30. You're better off just buying what you want with RP than buying an XP boost to level up and use BE.
verysalt (EUW)
: Anyone can play ad, but clearly RIOT made AP for her ulti. You have to discover a proper build to find out what RIOT had in mind.
> [{quoted}](name=verysalt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=889MYt2E,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-12-05T17:40:10.877+0000) > > Anyone can play ad, but clearly RIOT made AP for her ulti. You have to discover a proper build to find out what RIOT had in mind. They made her ult scale off of AP because it would be too broken if it scaled off of AD. It's not to make AP Ashe viable. Play on-hit with Nashor's/Rageblade if you want a build that scales the ult a bit, but it's hard to get more than the 20% CDR from Nashor's other than with runes.
: u dont level up to get blue esscene the xp boost is only to level you up. ur the one who thougth it would be worth it in blue eccsence.
> [{quoted}](name=WarlockDD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mgMIaL0t,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-05T17:14:25.900+0000) > > u dont level up to get blue esscene the xp boost is only to level you up. ur the one who thougth it would be worth it in blue eccsence. Riot just ~~balanced~~ rebuilt the entire IP/BE system around getting blue essence for champs/mastery by leveling up. That's the ~~whole~~ only point of levels now.
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Wanfear

Level 46 (NA)
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