: > [{quoted}](name=Pyrithegethon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=roxpMzNU,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-07-11T17:37:40.784+0000) > > What analogy? Mayhaps it is the leader of an Imperial nation, the ultimate antithesis to nature, ironically being countered by the brush - grass, the most basic foundation of the natural order itself. Potentially could Riot be implying that industry and human expansion cannot trump nature, for life always finds a way? It makes one think, it truly does.
I like this answer better than mine. Disregard everything I’ve said. Life will always find a way, but Noxus will win in the end >:).
: Isn't this kind of inconsistent with other abilities, though? Like, for sure, this is a great reason to not have an ability target stealthed enemies, but when there are abilities like Morgana's ult, Katarina's ult, Kennen's W, etc. to name but a few examples of abilities that do target stealthed champions, having all of these abilities do one thing, and having one ability that does very similar things, with this one exception, isn't really clear to players. Do developers consider consistency when deciding on these mechanics, and if so, how important is consistency to them?
Your point is fair and I also agree that consistency is important. In this particular case there's 1 main reason why I valued this interaction over consistency. The biggest difference between the spells you've named and Swain's ultimate is duration of effects. This to me was the crux of my decision making at the time. I wanted to carve out power budget in Swain's kit to maximize the duration of his ultimate in order to better reflect the experience of his old ult. I saw this mechanic as a minor design optimization that gave me valuable room in pursuing that goal. From an adjacent angle, the burden of play for the spells you've mentioned are also much higher since they resolve much faster, have shorter range, are un-castable when there are no valid enemies nearby and include mechanics like keeping in range for X time / marking enemies before hand. All of these aspects make them much more contextual than Swain's ultimate and it would feel like unnecessary counter play for them to also adhere to vision rules strictly. I think you can make a reasonable argument that the amount of power budget I'm actually buying for Swain's ult duration isn't worth the consistency/expectation cost, but at the time this was the rationale I had for it being a reasonable trade off. My personal taste is to preserve the power of vision control when possible. Another place on Swain I'd highlight is that his E doesn't reveal targets it roots (we are pretty inconsistent on this stuff as well) but his W is a semi-global reveal which offsets that. I felt dis-empowering the base-line functionality of E here actually created more synergy in his kit internally and made accessing his power feel more intentional.
: How come Swain ult doesn't drain stealthed/enemies in bushes?
This is by intent. Felt that this interaction preserves more counter play and gives more room for the ultimate to be powerful when used in better situations.
: Season 7 & The Balance Team has been a huge fucking disappointment.
I'm sorry that your League experience hasn't been as enjoyable this year as past ones. I sympathize with some of the points you bring up and I just wanted to give some of my perspective as an individual who works on the Live Gameplay team. First, I think there's a tendency for some players to think that our balance approach is directed at creating a game state that generates the most LC$$$. This is simply false. As a person who's worked on changes for the game over the past ~2 years, I've never once been asked to consider eSports revenue as a factor in my design decision making. If this was truly our goal, I'm sure you'd be hearing a lot more "ha-sa-ki" in the pro games you are watching. As a designer, I value the pro-game as an expression of what optimized behavior looks like. Having an eSports scene illuminates what is powerful and what is weak to every player and helps designers understand what systems need to be re-balanced in order to achieve more variety in League's gameplay. This is both good and bad because even though it helps live players discover new strategies, it also accelerates the solving of the meta-game when something is over-tuned or lacks counter-play. Ideally, being informed by pro-play allows us to make changes that improve the holistic experience for all players over time. But balancing our timing with what's healthy for pro play has historically been very challenging. This year we tried to be more accommodating to the pro players with the degree and timing of our changes nearing Worlds. I personally feel like this was a correct decision, but it also meant we took on different risks than previous years which have manifested different costs. I also want to highlight that some opinions about the game aren't uniform at Riot. Designers argue and discuss about what the game needs every day but efforts to make change need to be balanced with features that the design team is already aligned on delivering. For example, I personally think League's pacing should be re-examined and that Duskblade should probably be re-shaped, but it's unlikely that I could work on those changes properly without seeing what the game looks like after Runes Reforged shakes things up. To close, I realize this post isn't very specific about particular solutions we might have in mind with the pain points you brought up, but we are most definitely examining the game with similar lenses. I'm sure all of the devs on League are striving to do better in this new season as well and I hope we can earn back your trust with the efforts you'll see in the coming months and new year.
: @Riot A Serious Insight on How to Help Kindred
Don't have a lot of time to devote to this thread, but wanted to put in my 2 cents as the dev who last worked on her mini-update. In short, I think you make a very reasonable argument. I too think that Kindred needs a bit more love to reach an optimal balance state. We have discussed buffing them recently, but they slipped in priority due to other stuff going (yay Preseason). I do believe we will be devoting time to them in the near future and that most devs on the Live Gameplay team feel that they need some love. Not sure if our analysis will land exactly where yours did, but you do bring up a valid angle. I know in the past that their Q cooldown was a very sensitive lever to tune due to how slippery they can become. I think we would have to spend a lot of diligence in validating if a Q buff is the correct direction to take their next set of changes. I think there is a lot to be improved in Kindred's mark mini-game still as well for instance. Base MS is also a pretty attractive lever to me at first blush as well. Hopefully we will have time to address their current state in the coming patches or right after Runes Reforged.
  Rioter Comments
: Please Dont Over buff Kayn , the ult buff on shadow assassin is more than enough
We will be looking at Kayn very carefully and practice caution. The 7.15 buffs will do a lot of work for Shadow Kayn so we definitely won't be reacting with dramatic changes before we see how those play out.
Veraska (NA)
: i REALLY much prefer the latter (reducing mobility) over the former (nerfing range) for thematic reasons, Azir is the emperor, the commander, the king, he doesn't do the dirty work, he points and his soldiers kill whoever he wills them too, he's a much more interesting champion as a back line DPS champion then a pseudo innitiator, and it makes curbing his strengths and high elo performance much easier
Idea for range reduction isn't to make him not a back line champion, just reduce his range so its not such a pronounced strength. He would likely function at ranges similar to Cassiopeia/Ryze if we take direction 1.
Okuma (EUNE)
: Definitely rooting for option #2 Do you guys have any ideas as to what you'll do to tune down his mobility? Just remove his E or are you looking to reduce it's range?
Most likely exploring another way for him to re-position soldiers or a steroid for him to optimize around.
  Rioter Comments
: High elo Kindred main here. These changes look incredible, and really play towards the powerful late game fantasy that I have always wanted for Kindred and that I believe Riot has envisioned too. While overall I like the changes, I have a few questions and concerns to raise. 1. Are you concerned about Kindred having an unpredictable amount of attack speed? It seems weird not knowing what levels of attack speed you will be working with later in the game, and late game you might even have to sell attack speed items just to avoid overcapping. It might not be a huge issue outside of rare games with really high mark counts (I have reached 25 in a real game before), but late game I can range from 8-15+ marks depending on how the game is going, excluding outlier games with really low or high counts. 2. The W wording is a little strange, do you "place" the zone, similar to how Akali's old shroud worked? 3. E execute is amazing and a change I have wanted for a long time, but the 15% threshold seems a little arbitrary and binary. Would it be possible to ramp the damage up from 25%-10% or something thereabout, similar to how Veigars ult damage scaling works? Obviously this range would change as your crit chance increases too. 4. Having your range increase at breakpoints seems a little weird, but I suppose it never felt bad with Tristana, even with her old passive with higher numbers, so it might not be an issue. 5. As your range increases, your W becomes increasingly awkward to position. It needs to be placed in such a way that Wolf can reach the enemy target, and you can remain in it while keeping maximum distance from the target. If that maximum distance becomes bigger, the actually area you have to move around in seems like it would be fairly small. This might not be an issue if you have more control over the placement now, but if it does become an issue could increasing the W radius as your range increases be a consideration?
1. In short, yes but not too much. We are still figuring out the proper tuning/mechanic for Q's new effect. If Kindred gets 20+ stacks, I would expect that game to be so warped/late-game heavy that she might actually be able to sell some AS items for bigger AD items and feel good about that. 2. Will update wording. Lamb can direct wolf to a target location within 500 range of herself before he creates the W zone. 3. 15% was chosen as a number that mostly secured kills on enemies that were probably already going to die in the early game to ensure her early ganking wasn't buffed too hard. The lower starting threshold affords every % of crit chance to feel more meaningful when it scales. 4. Granular range increase per stack felt a bit unrewarding since its pretty hard to feel minor changes to your ranges. Went with this tier model instead so that Kindred could feel good about reaching clear thresholds of power instead of having that satisfaction obfuscated over each stack. We are still tuning this number though! It's highly possible we go with something like 50 range at the first 4 stacks as opposed to 75 as listed for instance. 5. This range doesn't scale up with marks.
: I automatically have to ask what increased crit damage does when I see that you are using alternative crit mechanics for crit chance. Is it still more damage on crits?
If something is worded as a critical strike, it should be amped by critical strike damage amplifiers.
Foruka (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Wav3Break,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nJbMhriw,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2017-05-16T06:21:19.660+0000) > > OOPS. One of the largest complaints I've heard about Kindred's kit is that it fails to live up to the expectations set by their lore. Kindred is made out to be both Lamb and Wolf, but the nature of Kindred's kit means that Lamb is the real champion, and Wolf just feels like an afterthought, such that even you make the mistake of using "her" to refer to what should be two distinct personalities. Since you're planning to change Kindred dramatically, have you considered just straight up reworking her in order to make Wolf a more noticeable presence?
I agree that she could fulfill the dual nature of her theme a bit more, but the scope for this update didn't allow for a lot of exploration in that space :X
: >Every 4 marks increases Kindred’s basic attack, Dance of Arrows and Mounting Dread’s cast range. The first 4 marks increase their ranges by 75, while every 4 marks after increase their ranges by 25. So if I read this right her range now scale infinitely?
If you are a prolific hunter...yes. Muahaha.
: These changes look pretty neat. Should we expect these or similar changes to be on PBE this week? One thing that I'm largely concerned with is that in Kindred's current Live iteration, Wolf feels like a really minor part of the kit compared to Lamb. It's hard to tell from only reading the changes here, but it looks like the passive on-hit's power is being taken away and moved into the abilities that more directly involve Wolf, which I think would help out some. I also think it's interesting that Wolf seems to be doing entirely magic damage while Lamb's is entirely physical. The W changes look really interesting. Currently when I play Kindred, having to cast the W as a PBAoE feels a bit awkward, and I hate the fact that whenever I'm about to leave the circle my Q is always still on CD so I can't get one last jump outside the circle and get the CD reduction. These changes also look like they'll significantly change Kindred's item build. What are you expecting that Kindred players will build with these changes? How is changing a lot of the damage dealt to magic damage going to affect her power curve from early to late game?
Looking to put this on PBE early this week. Most likely tomorrow. Their optimal build is still pretty difficult to solve even internally. Warrior is definitely a better go to as a jungle item in most situations though! I expect them to like Hurricane less and like Statikk Shiv more. BoTRK and Black Cleaver are still very potent as well. Black Cleaver is definitely less powerful with Wolf dealing magic damage but I expect that they will still build it quite often. Their mid game should be less powerful since Kindred's damage from spells won't scale optimally with mid-game penetration purchases. Their late game should be far more potent due to increased range and AS steroids. I think IE is very potent on them in this current iteration, but the times where you can look for it might be a bit scarce. The payoff may be well worth it though. Generally, I'm currently theory-crafting something like: Warrior -> Boots -> Zeal Item -> Black Cleaver/BotRK/IE Slot -> Situational.
: > [{quoted}](name=Wav3Break,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nJbMhriw,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-05-16T06:02:06.015+0000) > > We are testing Wolf with magic damage to make her damage curve a bit less smooth in terms of growth when finishing Black Cleaver/benefiting from other armor shred effects around mid-game. > > Sorry if the Mark scaling was a bit unclear. I'll look to update the post to be better about communicating that when I can. You broke the cardinal rule of Kindred. You must refer to Kindred as "they" not her! Hyped for the changes!
: Ah, yes, characters that are good in the early game and late game but weak in this mythical 'mid game' that occasionally shows up. Good idea. Why make Wolf magic damage? To prevent her from building lethality? And what do you mean by 'Now amplifies all of Kindred’s basic abilities per stack as outlined above'? Outlined above where?
We are testing Wolf with magic damage to make their damage curve a bit less smooth in terms of growth when finishing Black Cleaver/benefiting from other armor shred effects around mid-game. Sorry if the Mark scaling was a bit unclear. I'll look to update the post to be better about communicating that when I can.
  Rioter Comments
: Please remove Banshees veil from many non-ap users recommended builds.
: LULU MISSING HER RUNNING VERY FAST ANIMATION SINCE LONG TIME
Looking into this! Thanks for the visibility.
: Can we get a brave Riot member to comment on Why Lee Sin and Graves are in every game?
Lee Sin and Graves are definitely on our radar. In the upcoming mid-season patch, we will be releasing 3 updated tank junglers and a whole set of item updates which will have an impact on the current meta. We plan on evaluating potential changes from this new world rather than making changes now that might be incorrect once the mid-season meta settles.
: If you have a ban, ban Xerath. If somebody picks him, dodge.
Thanks for raising visibility. We will be investigating this ASAP.
: Shen Nerfs Will Make Q Max Feel Terrible
His Q's % health damage still ranks up like before. Q's new base damage component doesn't scale with rank because it is intended to add base line effectiveness for farming, not increased dueling power over the course of the lane phase which is already provided by his % health damage rank up.
Sahn Uzal (EUW)
: Riot has openly admitted that they do balance around LCS. Aswell as the Higher ranks of Solo Queue, aswell as the lower ranks of Solo Queue. When you start to think about how many different groups of players Riot balances around, combined with how hard it is to balance a game like lol in the first place, I think Riots balance team is very, very underappreciated.
It gets rough sometimes but posts like this make it worth it. God bless <3. {{item:3070}} {{item:3070}}
: These Shen nerfs on PBE look scary.
Shen's Q no longer does bonus damage to minions, but now has a base magic damage component on top of the % damage. This base magic damage is intended to be reliable for last hitting in early lane but not be as good for shoving the wave out pre-Tiamat/Bami's Cinder purchase. We will be making adjustments to how the base damage component scales over the game, but Shen's net damage versus champions will be increased as a fall out of this change. Will also be adding bonus damage to monsters back into the Q so that Shen's jungle clear isn't disproportionately nerfed by this change.
: Open Discussion on Volibear
Glad to see some passionate Voli players out there and great feedback! Currently I am planning to experiment with some satisfaction upgrades/light buffs to his ultimate on PBE very soon. Live Gameplay works on a lot of stuff at a time and a large scope project for Volibear isn't heavily prioritized over other things right now unfortunately. That said, I feel that there are some easy changes we could make to make his R moments feel a lot cooler with minimal power increase. If we did do larger scope work on him, I believe we would try to push him more into a juggernaut territory and re-tune his damages/tankiness around that direction.
Canastus (NA)
: @Meddler - The Shen nerfs really need to stop.
Hey guys, wanted to update you all: We are pulling the nerfs to Shen for 7.6. Thank you guys for the feedback. It's apparent that larger scope changes are required to address the pain points you guys have brought up. Future large-scope work on Shen will most likely be in the direction of re-shaping his holistic kit to lessen the discrepancy of performance between live ranked and pro play. Things like Shadow Dash width/range are on the table for exploration as well in that world. If we need to make buff/nerfs to him before a larger set of changes can ship, we will strive to select changes that will push Shen towards the direction that manifests the strengths and weaknesses we intended for him. When champions require larger scope work to solve, we try to make sure that necessary short term changes provide a better foundation for future work.
: > [{quoted}](name=Wav3Break,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=GjRsrPcq,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-03-10T04:24:30.736+0000) > > Thanks for the report, we will be getting it fixed next patch! What is the intended effect?
Canastus (NA)
: @Meddler - The Shen nerfs really need to stop.
Few reasons why we aren't hitting R right now to target pro-play considerations: - Despite R being powerful in pro, any nerf we do to it will also hit normal play a good chunk as well - Updated Galio is about to hit Live and will contend with Shen's strategic space somewhat, would like to observe and figure out a better direction once we see how these two champs interact in terms of priority Given his normal play performance and priority in pro, my inclination is that we'd rather nerf Shen for pro-play by buffing the champions that are meant to deal with him over hitting him directly. (Some cool trends are in effect though, like Renekton bubbling up etc.) Thus we felt a lighter nerf on him this time around was more appropriate. The nerfs we are trying for 7.6 are aimed at his late game dueling potential, something that I believe stands to be weaker than other parts of his kit given his powerful global presence in the late game. At the same time, our PBE changes are a slight buff to his early laning, not a large one but it definitely can be meaningful in extended trades in the early game. Historically, Shen has been strategically countered by a late game duelist who could lane against him throughout the game. The nerfs on PBE are intended to push him slightly more towards that historical weakness.
Kei143 (NA)
: [Stonebond Pact] x [Warden's mail / Frozen armor / Randium's Omen]
Thanks for the report, we will be getting it fixed next patch!
: Stoneborn Pact - Does it work with % Heal increase effects?
: Here's some proof of blatant favoritism towards Jayce, compared to Varus.
I think Permabanned Garen already mentioned Jayce's performance data being quite reasonable. We do in fact take data into account when we decide to make or pull nerfs/buffs. It was difficult to justify hitting Jayce again given the way his performance has been trending down from other systemic changes we've been making over the past few patches. (Mastery damage amp nerfs, Yoomu's nerfs, Black Cleaver changes etc.) Varus on the other hand did not experience the same impact from those changes as Jayce did and so we had more confidence we needed to tune him down a bit more. Shallow example: Varus doesn't build Black Cleaver, which is still pretty staple on many Jayce builds. That said, it's not like everyone on the design team believes Jayce is perfectly tuned in his current state, but it is difficult to make a case that he is blatantly overpowered and requires more nerfs on top of the Edge of Night nerfs we will be shipping in 7.5. The shield duration is being reduced from 10 seconds to 5, making it much less potent as a "I get to walk around wherever I want" tool. We will still be keeping an eye on Jayce and make adjustments if deemed necessary in upcoming patches. On the topic of favoritism, I will say that though Jayce and Varus are both powerful at poking enemies, I tend to think Jayce's poking pattern has more play around it than Varus's. Empowered Shock Blast is not only block-able, but it also has a much longer down time between blasts when compared to Varus's high up time pass through Piercing Arrow shots. When these two champions are both strong, I believe the game feels less fair if you are being poked down by a Varus over a Jayce. This is why the direction of our Varus nerfs in 7.5 are targeted at making the damage of his Q more in line with a pass-through ability and hitting its up-time if spammed at long range mindlessly. Differences like these influence our decision making as well when it comes to nerfing/buffing champions with similar strategic strengths. Out of all the champions that share a strategic space, we tend to favor the ones who use healthier gameplay patterns to express their strategic strengths than ones who don't.
: The Bond of Stone changes look really cool, but I have a few question: Does the Bond of Stone change work on all forms of CC (ie. slows), or just hard CC? Also, how do you see this differing from Courage of the Colossus? It seems the basic premise is that CoC is for Vanguards/initiators, where BoS is for Wardens/defensive tanks, but I'm just wondering how you view things, so one doesn't completely overshadow the other in terms of stat/point efficiency. Finally, is there a cooldown/limit on marking people, since I think that could be a big deal in terms of distinguishing the two. For example, it may be more worthwhile for Leona to take BoS and just give her teammates a ton of heals on initiating, instead of shielding herself with CoC (especially since it synergizes with her passive), where it seems generally more fitting for Leona to take CoC since she initiates a lot of fights. Thanks!
> [{quoted}](name=MrBuffington,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=kjauTenG,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-02-24T18:23:37.487+0000) > > The Bond of Stone changes look really cool, but I have a few question: > > Does the Bond of Stone change work on all forms of CC (ie. slows), or just hard CC? Also, how do you see this differing from Courage of the Colossus? It seems the basic premise is that CoC is for Vanguards/initiators, where BoS is for Wardens/defensive tanks, but I&#x27;m just wondering how you view things, so one doesn&#x27;t completely overshadow the other in terms of stat/point efficiency. > > Finally, is there a cooldown/limit on marking people, since I think that could be a big deal in terms of distinguishing the two. For example, it may be more worthwhile for Leona to take BoS and just give her teammates a ton of heals on initiating, instead of shielding herself with CoC (especially since it synergizes with her passive), where it seems generally more fitting for Leona to take CoC since she initiates a lot of fights. Thanks! Q1: Yep, works on all CC effects, including slows, blinds, grounded, etc. And yes this mastery is intended to be more powerful for more defensive champions who don't lean on initiation as much to express power. Q2: There is no cooldown or limit. You can mark whole enemy teams if you buy Rylais as Amumu, constantly and forever. Thoughts here are that if item interactions prove to be overly game wapring, we would tone it down to being based off ability driven CC effects, preserving the synergies we wanted. From our tests, it hasn't been too oppressive in the infinite case, but obviously we could be off. In the meantime, letting it synergize with item purchases is pretty cool from a play style stand point. I think we've actually enriched your strategies for winning on a champion like Leona if you can see a new item path that enables a more supportive style in a particular game by taking this new mastery. If this proves to be abusive however, we will have solutions prepared.
No3nvy (EUW)
: @Meddler any updates regarding Nidalee buff?
Buffs should be showing up on the next PBE update. I believe that is today, will double check.
NovaDisk (NA)
: Garen's E doesn't make a 'crack' sound on 4th tick in 7.1. Also Ult cancels if vision is lost.
: are these small reworks, particularly the shyv one, something your whole team does, or just a few of you on the team do? just curious. did you do alistar or shyvana?
> [{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rcNKy8HK,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2016-12-17T04:39:38.365+0000) > > are these small reworks, particularly the shyv one, something your whole team does, or just a few of you on the team do? just curious. did you do alistar or shyvana? I worked on Shyvana and Shin Kazuo worked on Alistar. Depending on our current work load, we all look for opportunities to work on larger but not quite VGU level projects like Anivia/Alistar/Shyv. This type of work is relatively new but we feel that we can use these mini-updates to drastically improve game health on champions where number tuning and minor mechanic tweaks have reached diminishing returns.
: Karma PBE nerf
Karma's W still reveals targets while they are linked. There will be a tool-tip update that calls out the reveal as "True Sight" soon so it's more clear that it can reveal invisible enemies (like Vayne) as well. Other players have mentioned it, but we are inclined to take a look at her power due to her meta presence.
: Any chances she finaly looses the stupid 20% bonus vs monsters on W and gets something that might help her lane a bit in return? Toplane shyvana has been dead for a long time now, and i really hoped that the opportunity thhat this small rework grants gets used, but so far it's been a nerf to her lane rather than any improvement. Maybe it's just me, but i really don't like her current 'walking bag of gold' design where she's balanced around haveing a gold+xp advantage by default due to absurd clearspead. It leaves her kit underwhelming whenever she doesn't have that lead(includeing lategame). Reduceing her clear speed a tad(even without that 20% bonus vs monsters, she most likely will still have one of the fastest clears out there) and adding more power to her kit would be an imprtant move to make for her. And while i like most of the recent changes, i certainly dislike the concept of a dragon based passive. It may be thematically compelling, but it's just inherently snowbally and unreliable while also causing issues on other maps.
> [{quoted}](name=Don Cingulum,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PuHa88eE,comment-id=00080007,timestamp=2016-11-24T02:32:08.052+0000) > > Any chances she finaly looses the stupid 20% bonus vs monsters on W and gets something that might help her lane a bit in return? > Toplane shyvana has been dead for a long time now, and i really hoped that the opportunity thhat this small rework grants gets used, but so far it&#x27;s been a nerf to her lane rather than any improvement. > > Maybe it&#x27;s just me, but i really don&#x27;t like her current &#x27;walking bag of gold&#x27; design where she&#x27;s balanced around haveing a gold+xp advantage by default due to absurd clearspead. It leaves her kit underwhelming whenever she doesn&#x27;t have that lead(includeing lategame). Reduceing her clear speed a tad(even without that 20% bonus vs monsters, she most likely will still have one of the fastest clears out there) and adding more power to her kit would be an imprtant move to make for her. > And while i like most of the recent changes, i certainly dislike the concept of a dragon based passive. It may be thematically compelling, but it&#x27;s just inherently snowbally and unreliable while also causing issues on other maps. If we need to nerf her in the future, W's bonus damage to monsters is a mechanic that we'd like to remove as it would free us up to make more appreciable buffs for lane Shyvana.
: Any Shyv main will tell you all she needed was a better Ultimate Hitbox and Ignore CC during Dragon's Descent. Riot didn't need to fuck with the rest of her kit. tbh if Riot were clever they'd play around with her Base/Scaling HP and HP Regen to bring lane Shyv back into the fold if they wanted to see more play out of her.
> [{quoted}](name=A Blue Quaker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PuHa88eE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-11-23T15:20:01.004+0000) > > Any Shyv main will tell you all she needed was a better Ultimate Hitbox and Ignore CC during Dragon&#x27;s Descent. Riot didn&#x27;t need to fuck with the rest of her kit. > > tbh if Riot were clever they&#x27;d play around with her Base/Scaling HP and HP Regen to bring lane Shyv back into the fold if they wanted to see more play out of her. Wasn't in patch notes, but I did re-script her ultimate to update more frequently and adjusted the hitbox to line up with her visuals a bit better.
MrWasjig (EUW)
: > The passive change is intended to be a nerf to offset some of the power we added in other areas on her kit She was already shit, why give her a helping hand then kick her down again? You might as well have not bothered xP
> [{quoted}](name=MrWasjig,realm=EUW,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=2TvutxOg,comment-id=000300000007,timestamp=2016-11-21T13:06:32.461+0000) > > She was already shit, why give her a helping hand then kick her down again? You might as well have not bothered xP We try to make sure we don't go overboard on buff or nerf when we do larger scope changes like this. That said, this change is intended to be a net buff. We will follow up and buff her if we miss the mark.
Drehirth (NA)
: sounds mostly cool, but a little sad how you basically gave her a weaker ball of stats passive and gave up on an interesting passive.
> [{quoted}](name=Drehirth,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=2TvutxOg,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-18T22:30:10.344+0000) > > sounds mostly cool, but a little sad how you basically gave her a weaker ball of stats passive and gave up on an interesting passive. The passive change is intended to be a nerf to offset some of the power we added in other areas on her kit. We don't think her updated passive is the best it could be, but do believe that the change puts it in a better direction moving forward when compared to the old passive.
: What about Drakeless maps? (HA, TT, CS)
> [{quoted}](name=Rememdium,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=2TvutxOg,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-11-18T22:43:25.956+0000) > > What about Drakeless maps? (HA, TT, CS) Will be adding in special casing for those in 6.24.
: Dear Riot, if you are going to nerf colossus
We will be looking into nerfing CoC first and then re-evaluate the power level of the champions affected. Personally, I suspect that some of the heaviest abusers will need further adjustments even after we hit CoC.
Hadriel (NA)
: @Meddler Kog rework revert: what about the balance changes done in the context of the rework?
We are currently not reverting all of his base stat lines back to pre-rework status, but will adjust them as necessary once we see how the partially reverted kit performs in the current live state of the game. That being said, we are planning to revert his base attack speed and attack speed growth for 6.19 as they are more closely bound to to the feel of his reverted auto-attack paradigm. Q will also keep its post re-work attack speed bonus for now. All of these are subject to tuning after we understand his new power level though! We will definitely be monitoring him closely and thinking about ways to improve him holistically as we go.
: These Teemo "buffs".
Specifically for point 3, mushrooms were never granting vision of poisoned enemies. They were actually revealing a very large radius around the explosion and thus it felt like poisoned enemies were revealed by the poison because they were slowed and could not escape the revealed radius. This functionality was unintentionally removed (my bad), but we are rectifying it by actually making mushroom poison reveal the targets it hits for this coming patch like Caitlyn traps. We are still evaluating his performance and will likely respond with appropriate changes in the coming patches to help him out if he needs it!
Artits (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Wav3Break,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2dmlqti8,comment-id=0023,timestamp=2015-07-24T03:10:11.055+0000) > > Hey everyone! Gonna jump on this thread to give more context on some of these Teemo changes since I worked on them as a humble sacrifice to our dark lord. > > I had a few specific goals for these changes: > > 1) Reduce some of the ambient frustration Teemo causes by just having immortal shrooms. > > 2) Give this little devil some more skillful ways to express himself as the evil that haunts all of us in our dreams. > > 3) Give Teemo some sort of fall back team-fight pattern that doesn't just involve right clicking dudes in range so he can feel more useful when his team isn't on the same page as him in terms of baiting enemies into mine fields. > > Answering a few questions I see here and there real quick: > > 1) The bouncing will not prime the mushroom, it is simply a way for Teemo to have some extra placement on his traps. Traps will still have to land and arm before they explode. > > 2) Mushrooms will only be target-able by enemies after they land, but currently still are destroyed by Wind Wall like effects before planting. > > That being said, I'd love some feedback on how his upgraded passive feels in game. Can you pull off some more sneaky jukes as you traverse around the map? Does ambushing people feel like a more fun and viable way to express yourself as Teemo? > > I'll preface this before you guys go ham trying to mess with people in top lane with his new camouflage: it should not be as good as you think it is since you have to worry about last hitting over and over, but there should be more situations where you feel like cheesing someone as they comeback from base is viable. > > On the other hand, support Teemo in bot lane should have way more fun dominating the bushes and being a nuisance for the enemy since he doesn't need to worry about last hitting minions. > > Also sound effects for throwing and bouncing the mushrooms should be getting into PBE around tomorrow and it would be awesome to get some feedback around them too! (Big thanks to our vfx and sfx guys for cranking these awesome things out btw.) > > Thanks in advance guys! And have fun out there >:) > > P.S. posted something like this on Reddit to but I got there too late so it is buried :X! Hope you guys don't mind me re-posting a lot of what I said over there! I love you. ♥
: > [{quoted}](name=Riot Wav3Break,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2dmlqti8,comment-id=002c0000,timestamp=2015-07-24T07:31:41.082+0000) > > It is pretty substantial no doubt, but it was also a lot of power that Teemo players would tap into unintentionally. Cutting down on this type of superfluous power will let us shift some more buffs into cooler/more skillful areas of Teemo's kit in the future if we need to. That being said, through a lot of internal testing so far, the extended cast range has been a substantial buff that for the most part seems to make up for this loss. > > The big thing about this change is that it creates a larger and healthier space for us to work with in the future if we need to give him some more love :D! Or hate. You can't forget hate.
: as a teemo player i am unsure how i feel about this. I like the extra range for shrooms and the fact i can use them as a poke/harass tool. The arm time isn't a huge nerf but it could screw me in fights when i try to lay a shroom down on myself before i die or something, but i probably won't notice it in most situations. i think i'm overeacting to it a bit. The duration nerf kinda sucks it will be harder to keep control of areas if i'm also using shrooms to fight and waveclear. My biggest problem with the duration nerf is that you encourage me to use shrooms to poke and be aggressive thanks to the range and the bounce and then punish me when i decide to use them to gain control of various areas on the map. It's like, i have less to put around the map because i use them aggressively and when i do put them around the map they don't give as much value. The camo changes are really nice especially considering how i like to play teemo. I go for nashors early if i'm ap and if i'm ad i get botrk, sometimes wits end, etc. The late game attack speed buff is great for sneaky plays. TLDR: I like the camo buffs The arm time nerf worries me but probably won't be a big deal. The duration has me concerned. I think once i get used to the changes they will be for the better. I think the camo buffs may outweigh the other changes.
I think part of you feeling unsure is in some ways a healthy thing. His decision making around his ultimate used to be comparatively more simple, but now that you have all these options I think that exploration is definitely required for you to master his new capabilities. Ultimately there will be many more optimal ways to play him in every game now depending on every scenario. Experiencing failure in your quest to discover/master these new optimizations is inevitable but it is a path that I think will lead to more satisfaction when playing Teemo and becoming one with Satan himself. Lastly, I've said this in other places, but these ultimate changes should open up a lot of space for us to tune more skill based parts of his kit in the future so fear not, the Swift Scout can and will find new ways to torment his victims.
: Well Fk, now I can't play {{champion:122}} {{champion:48}} , as he's just gonna throw a shroom at me during cs phasing.
This should not happen as the cast range of the traps is relatively the same pre-level 11. Additionally, melee champions kill mushrooms in 2 auto attacks so if your playing Darius or Trundle, you can use your auto reset on your kit to effectively negate a mushroom being thrown in your face instantly! This might take some timing to do, but should be easy if Teemo is throwing a shroom directly at you! Also with a longer arm time, if you manage to get on top of Teemo, you can kill or dodge the mushroom he plants to save himself more easily and hopefully have a higher chance in killing him/winning the trade. I'm rooting for you killing him though ;).
: 5 minutes on his shrooms. its a huge nerf.
It is pretty substantial no doubt, but it was also a lot of power that Teemo players would tap into unintentionally. Cutting down on this type of superfluous power will let us shift some more buffs into cooler/more skillful areas of Teemo's kit in the future if we need to. That being said, through a lot of internal testing so far, the extended cast range has been a substantial buff that for the most part seems to make up for this loss. The big thing about this change is that it creates a larger and healthier space for us to work with in the future if we need to give him some more love :D!
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Wav3Break

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