: FINALLY SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH ME. Sorry I got excited. I have played Jax for years and this preseason he feels so bad to play. They nerfed Jax two or three times bc of spear and never reverted them when they removed it. His active on his ult is not even that great anymore bc of all the true damage and percent max health damage. Finally Jax is supposed to be a split pusher but his aa reset doesn’t work on turrets meanwhile fio q and e works, yorick q minions and maiden, and Camille true damage all work on turrets. I really hope riot giver him some love soon.
Hard split push top laners like Jax/Irelia/Fiora are super gimped right now because of all of the changes that have moved focus away from playing the map and forcing players into fighting more over the years. You can point to a lot of things, but here are the first few that come to mind for me: 1. Shorter lane phase - often times the game gets away from you before you have the chance to become the best 1v1 on the map 2. Free homeguards - using split push and rotations/trading objectives to counter teams forcing engages is much harder now because of faster response time 3. Scuttle movement speed buff - same as up above 4. Teleport nerfs - yes this was mostly aimed at lane phase, but side effect of it is that with a longer CD, there is are fewer windows where a Jax can afford to sit in a side lane opposite his team 5. Cloud drake - yeah I know this changed in the preseason here, but it was a problem over the last year bailing out teams who were getting split pushed or rotated on Personally I'd love to see the game return back to the days where you could win a game almost purely through macro. The days where C9 sat on top of NA by having Hai shot call and run teams around the map and punishing aggression with objective trades...that was the golden age of League man.
: How can you possibly expect your playerbase to not be toxic in this game?
There is a lot of...interesting....stuff in here. But what I will say is that I agree wholeheartedly that the game has become too focused on burst damage and generating fighting. There used to be (and should still be) far more to the game than that. Also, there are ways to make game times shorter without making the game more snowbally. When people said games were getting too long and boring, Riot's response was just to cut off the last 25% of the game. In order to maintain some semblance of balance they then had to buff the damage of things like enchanters and mages in the early game and keep them relevant. But they also had to buff assassins/bursters to make sure that they didn't auto lose to scaling if they don't properly snowball and roam for the first 15-20 minutes. Riot's approach SHOULD HAVE been to try and find a way to fit all of the phases, and all of the elements that used to exist when the average game length was like 35 minutes...and streamline/condense them to all fit in a 28 minute window. Just chopping off the late game is completely idiotic. It makes the already problematic homogenization of strategy even worse.
: It should have been heavy defensive in nature. Thats the point of what a tank tree should be.
I absolutely agree. Unfortunately I think that we've gone so far in the damage focused direction, that we'd probably need to do a fairly big overhaul to the game in order to make a fully defense tree viable. In the current meta you need to be able to be a damage threat in all five roles and generate pressure early on. When that's not the case the community starts to rage about pro matches being boring, and about feeling like they don't have a lot of impact. The appreciation for creativity and 1000 IQ rotations is heavily under-represented when compared to fans who want to just see lots of fighting and lots of killing. And in game people only gage "impact" based on number of kills secured. They don't care about how many ganks they've denied or how much they have neutralized the enemy with vision. It's not fun unless they are securing kills. It's all part of a vicious circle. At some point Riot has to make a stand from a quality design standpoint and say, "Guys we don't want this game to become a one dimensional kill fest. We want there to be a lot of variety not just in number of champs played, but in overall strategies, in viable win conditions, and team comps. Take it or leave it." That will allow them to create very high utility kits that are viable just based off the impact of their utility and not focusing on damage, and it will allow them to re-introduce true frontline vanguard tanks who have no qualms about walking into a full team of 5 and providing control for like a 10 second team fight. BUT....the community has to get behind that first or RIOT will never move in that direction.
BBKong (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Whisper87,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aJ6KLgcQ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-06T17:01:03.060+0000) > > I actually think the thing we need the most is an AP version of Mercurial Scimitar. While uses/passives may differ, the reality is that both AP and AD champs have at least 1 armor/damage item and at least 1 MR/damage item. Looking at it objectively, I think Maw and Banshees are fairly equal. And I think Zhonyas and GA are fairly equal. While they function very differently, the idea is essentially the same: "If I get engaged on, I have a way to survive the burst". But when you look at QSS, it has a very specific function for counter-play against teams with long duration CC a la Skarner/Malz, or teams with lot's of good ranged catch a la Zoe/Morg/Lux/Thresh/Anivia/TF/Sej. > > There are a number of reasons that making literally identical versions of Maw, Zhonyas, GA would not be balanced. A lot of it has to do with counterplay and damage patterns. Next season it looks like Edge of Night is essentially going to be an AD Banshees, and I think that one is pretty balanced. But for now, just imagine a Vlad going being able to build an AP version of GA on top of his pool/Zhonyas. Or something like Cassiopia/Ryze/Anivia stacking Seraph's along with hp/ap items, then then having both Zhonyas and a GA. When a ADC goes down with GA, they require auto attacks so if their team gets wrecked they can just respawn and die. If a mage with GA goes down, they can respawn and just nuke someone or maybe even multiple people before they get gibbed again. I had this argument before with someone. Mercurial should stay as an AD effect unless you take the summoner spell. There are a lot of champs whose only real hard counter is CC and except some notable exceptions (tryndamere etc), lots of AD champs that would like Mercurial would not benefit from some of the stats it gives. That's how it's balanced - so someone like Zed would be wasting some stats if they built it to just get another free CC dodge along with his ult. It's better on ranged squishies than assassins because of that. Imagine the enemy team last picks Ekko, who's already hard to lock down and kill, but you can CC him and burst him before he ults, etc. He builds an item with AP for himself that gives him a free Cleanse, and your Support is the only champ with CC that's easy to get on him. You're just fucked - and he doesn't even have to give up the stats of any other item to get it. Sure, same thing goes for Vayne, but she also doesn't have the AOE CC, burst, huge shield, or healing (from ult) that an Ekko has. An AP Mercurial would just break too many things - that's why we don't have a Lethality one either.
Here's the deal though, at the highest level of play, literally every person across all 5 roles will buy a QSS if there is a Malz or a Skarner on the other team. Especially in NA lol. I just think it's weird to have that scaling factor. Where teams are getting severely out damaged in the 5-6 item phase of the game. It makes the game too much about raw stats and damage output rather than skill at that point. Yes there does need to be a trade off in terms of utility vs damage. But I think that's already fine as the amount of damage you get from Merc Scim is quite small compared to the top tier damage items. If you're really worried about this being too strong, you could just take off the lifesteal and make sure you don't put anything like that on the AP version either, so it's literally just a QSS plus a little AD/AP. While I agree allowing divers like Akali/Ekko to have a QSS/AP item could be a little tough to peel for your back line. I think mages are getting sorely neglected. Especially when you're talking about something like Cass/Viktor/Malz which all function quite similarly to ADC's in the context of a team fight. Now that I think about it, you could probably just make both the AD and AP version a ranged champion only item. I'm not a person who thinks divers/assassins need any more help. I already feel like burst/dive champs across all classes have gotten too much love over the last season and a half. So I would be super on board with any changes that cement QSS items as something for backliners and supports, and not for front liners and assassins. The only downside I see to making it a ranged champ only item is that I really really think it's cool when a support builds a QSS and then rushes a Mikael's right after that for their team. If it became ranged only you wouldn't be able to do that kind of stuff on melee supports like Braum/TK/Alistar. I personally think the focus on raw damage output is too high. I would love to see LOL focus more intensely on utility of items and champ kits. Maybe not as much as like Dota does, but still more than they do now. Really cool spells that riot should be trying to think more about and using more of: - Kindred ult - Braum W-E - Yasuo windwall - Senna's "stealth" mechanic - Ranged bonus on Handcannon - Warwick's "on the hunt" mechanics - Old Nunu's neutral monster and counterjungling mechanics - Neeko's stealth/clone
: > [{quoted}](name=Whisper87,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aJ6KLgcQ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-12-06T17:01:03.060+0000) > > I actually think the thing we need the most is an AP version of Mercurial Scimitar. While uses/passives may differ, the reality is that both AP and AD champs have at least 1 armor/damage item and at least 1 MR/damage item. Looking at it objectively, I think Maw and Banshees are fairly equal. And I think Zhonyas and GA are fairly equal. While they function very differently, the idea is essentially the same: "If I get engaged on, I have a way to survive the burst". But when you look at QSS, it has a very specific function for counter-play against teams with long duration CC a la Skarner/Malz, or teams with lot's of good ranged catch a la Zoe/Morg/Lux/Thresh/Anivia/TF/Sej. > > There are a number of reasons that making literally identical versions of Maw, Zhonyas, GA would not be balanced. A lot of it has to do with counterplay and damage patterns. Next season it looks like Edge of Night is essentially going to be an AD Banshees, and I think that one is pretty balanced. But for now, just imagine a Vlad going being able to build an AP version of GA on top of his pool/Zhonyas. Or something like Cassiopia/Ryze/Anivia stacking Seraph's along with hp/ap items, then then having both Zhonyas and a GA. When a ADC goes down with GA, they require auto attacks so if their team gets wrecked they can just respawn and die. If a mage with GA goes down, they can respawn and just nuke someone or maybe even multiple people before they get gibbed again. Maw and Banshee’s are equal? Lmfao Maw with it’s not stacking with PD or Steracks, and horrible gold efficiency. Meanwhile Banshee’s has mr ap and cdr. Not to mention mages have Zhonya’s (i’d argue the best item in the game)
Sorry I didn't mean from like an objective standpoint. I meant more from like Riot's current philosophy. In the current system, Zhonya's on an ADC would be considered far too strong, stronger than it is on mages. This being due to ADC's being target #1 in most later game team fights and how their damage patterns work compared to most mages/assassins. Riot's philosophy over the past few years has been fairly clear that they don't want ADC's to be able to tank damage and sustain through dives. The fact that Maw doesn't stack with PD or Sterak's is very intentional. The nerfs to fleet footwork, and items/runes being reworked so that BT is a vanity item rather than a core item, the overall move to focus on up front damage out put...all of it points to the fact that they want ADC's to remain literal glass cannons. From a personal standpoint I would be on the side that thinks the game has become far too focused on damage output in general, especially burst damage, and that I would like to see a lot of cool utility options in the game rather than just buffing/nerfing damage elements all the time. But we'd have to see the majority of the players base get ok with focusing on things besides kills and dps, and potentially slightly longer games. Not sure if that'll happen with how big esports are and with Tencent on board.
SirEnds (NA)
: Adding an AD Zhonyah's Hourglass item and an AP Guardian Angel Item to the game?
I actually think the thing we need the most is an AP version of Mercurial Scimitar. While uses/passives may differ, the reality is that both AP and AD champs have at least 1 armor/damage item and at least 1 MR/damage item. Looking at it objectively, I think Maw and Banshees are fairly equal. And I think Zhonyas and GA are fairly equal. While they function very differently, the idea is essentially the same: "If I get engaged on, I have a way to survive the burst". But when you look at QSS, it has a very specific function for counter-play against teams with long duration CC a la Skarner/Malz, or teams with lot's of good ranged catch a la Zoe/Morg/Lux/Thresh/Anivia/TF/Sej. There are a number of reasons that making literally identical versions of Maw, Zhonyas, GA would not be balanced. A lot of it has to do with counterplay and damage patterns. Next season it looks like Edge of Night is essentially going to be an AD Banshees, and I think that one is pretty balanced. But for now, just imagine a Vlad going being able to build an AP version of GA on top of his pool/Zhonyas. Or something like Cassiopia/Ryze/Anivia stacking Seraph's along with hp/ap items, then then having both Zhonyas and a GA. When a ADC goes down with GA, they require auto attacks so if their team gets wrecked they can just respawn and die. If a mage with GA goes down, they can respawn and just nuke someone or maybe even multiple people before they get gibbed again.
Ayzev (EUW)
: They don't have to build all of em, 2-3 is enough, and many games end before you get more. Maybe it would be enough to simply balance such a rune around tanks' higher health, but I find it's risky. Though personally I would prefer runes that do something more than simply boost stats. But I also don't want things like Aery, Scorch, Second Wind, Electrocute, etc., which are effectively the same as stat boosts - they're just more damage, more shielding, more health regen or whatever, with no effect on how you play beyond just making you stronger.
Yeah I agree flat stat boosts are fairly boring. I was just giving some examples as a foundation. I think if I were Riot I'd double down on like situational, proc based stuff. Bone shield, After Shock, Grasp, Shield Bash are all good examples. But here are some other examples: - A rune that boosts your defenses temporarily when you take damage from multiple ranged sources in a short window. But you also put a minmum range requirement on it as well so that it's not useful for assassins/divers jumping into your back line. That would be an ideal rune for like a standard front-back team fight comp where the tank feels they will be spending their time focused on peeling rather than diving. - A rune that hits you with a temporary hp regen or some other defenses if you land hard CC on multiple targets within a few seconds. There's really no limit to stuff like that, and by putting things like range requirements, multiple target requirements, and proximity requirements...you can fairly easily keep these out of the realm of standard pickups for damage heroes and keep them as tank primary runes.
: If it scales with armor and mr they cant abuse it. Even if they have damage, they would have to sink a ton into tank items but have no damage to answer for it.
I don't think that would be a problem if you made the whole tree defensive in nature, including nerfing the damage of Grasp and Aftershock and upping their defensive side. Then I think you'd have a decent trade off. All of those guys really want to go full damage anyways, and I think if you remove Shield Bash and Demolish, most of those players will be heavily jaded by the Resolve tree and only want to go it if it's super necessary in the context of team comps.
Ayzev (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Whisper87,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEddtZPi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-05T22:21:25.276+0000) > > Offer a rune that increases the amount of bonus HP by a small % FROM ITEMS ONLY > this would be something that only tanky champs would benefit from I'm not so sure {{item:3165}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3152}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3027}}
I see your point, but I don't think it matters too much. Not many AP champs will stack all of those items. And they don't have as much hp as tank items do. I guess my thought is that if a mage has all those items they are already tanky enough that another 10% of that bonus hp won't matter too much. Or that if they only have 1-2 of those items, the bonus hp gain will be so small it won't matter too much. If it is a really big issue, though then you could just increase HP based on amount of Armor/MR. Like an extra 2 hp per 1 armor and 1 hp per 1 MR or something along those lines.
Crashyy (EUW)
: Resolve rune tree "Durability and crowd control", seems to do more damage than both of those traits
Totally agree tank tree needs some buffs and directional focus in terms of tankiness. I think there is a concern that if you can get too much durability from just the mastery, you'll have similar problems to when Targons on ADC or Abyssal scepter on a mid mage was meta. You just get so tanky early on as a back line damage dealer that divers and assassins aren't able to do their job. So here are some ideas for runes that would be good for tankier champs and not back liners: 1. Re-instate Courage of the Colossus - I think this is good because it's just a temporary shield, so even if someone took it on an ADC or Mage with hard cc, it wouldn't be something they could abuse if the cooldown is long enough. 2. Put in a 100% uptime tenacity rune similar to what the Precision tree offers 3. Offer a rune that increases the amount of bonus HP by a small % FROM ITEMS ONLY - this would be something that only tanky champs would benefit from, and wouldn't really be that broken since it doesn't scale with HP from leveling up or from other runes. 4. Offer a rune that reduces damage taken based on the number of enemy champs in VERY CLOSE proximity to you - the range for enemies to be in to activate this should probably be pretty small, like maybe about the same range as the Guardian keystone. And as far as damage taken i'd say maybe like 4/6/8/10 % . That way it tanks could still get bullied by damage dealers hard in lane, but would be rewarded for good engages and come online a touch earlier in terms of team fighting. If you are really worried about tanks being too strong early you could just make it only activate with 2 or more enemies, and make it 6/8/10%.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Phridolin,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=wszGG6Ej,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2019-12-05T14:09:36.866+0000) > > many things they should adress like: > > - a stable, and functional client > - let trolls and afklers be more punished than flamers > - stop smurfing. delete all smurf accounts > - less dmg overall > - rework of champs like riven and vlad > - give ressource less champions ressources > - give certain better tank items vs true dmg and AP > - make more maps/or map skins > - give more skin refunds > - put dragon to toplane and baron botlane > - make dragons and baron stronger/tankier > > > just a view examples I like most of what you put here. How exactly would you solving/implementing them?
> [{quoted}](name=TouchpadExpert,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=wszGG6Ej,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2019-12-05T20:49:00.272+0000) > > I like most of what you put here. How exactly would you solving/implementing them? I think one of the first things Riot should do is overhaul tank itemization to make it as efficient as dps items are. The items just don't work well together due to passives stacking on top of one another. FH, Randuins, and Thornmail all have the Warden's Mail passive that is wasted if you stack them. And as you ramp up into late game stacking HP/Armor becomes very important as most of the sustained damage is coming from AD at that point in the game. Spirit Visage and Adaptive Helm do stack fairly well with their passives, especially when you consider how prevalent on hit stuff is now...but the games where tanks can afford to build double MR items are pretty rare. DPS items are just far more well rounded too. So that when a tank is actually getting the items they need to be front liners in team fights, they are pretty much already getting outscaled by the mages and ADC's who are so good at shredding them. Back in the day the Frozen Heart into Spirit Visage rush worked really well because of the combo of MR, Armor, CDR on both items, plus strong passives, and mana from FH. But now true damage and penetration are so easy to come by in the early game that HP is sorely needed, not to mention the increased focus on damage which pretty much demands that tanks go Firecape or Iceborne to have any meaningful impact. I know the concern with a lot of folks is a fear of returning to the days where tank tops and junglers were OP and ruled the meta. But the first thing to remember is that diminishing returns would still impact itemization and allow tanks to get outscaled by high damage in the late game, so no real change in that regard. If we just adjust the items a little bit so that their passives work cohesively together, and maybe spread out the mana/cdr a little better, the result would be that tanks are ready to fight right around the same time everyone else is, and it would take just a touch longer before tanks got outscaled. Additionally I think if tanks get their mid game power spike moved up a bit, I don't think you need to nerf Conquereor. Here are ideas/recommendations: (again I think if you do this you don't need to nef conqueror which would maintain balanced for fighters/top lane) 1. Replace the Giant's Belt in Firecape with a Kindlegem for the CDR and up the combine price by 200 to maintain the same overall price 2. Release an armor item that has Catalyst as a component for the early trading and mana/hp pool. Effectively an armor version of Abyssal Mask. Not sure what the passive would be, but in terms of stats it should basically be the same. 3. Find a replacement for the attack speed slow on Randuins or Thornmail. There needs to still be an item with HP and Armor with the Warden's mail passive, so that it's not exclusive to FH, but the ability to stack both Randuins and FH, or Randuins and Thornmail without wasting stats would be sick for the 3 item spike of tanks. 4. Release an MR version of Righteous Glory 5. Make another pure HP item besides warmogs 6. Re-Instate Force of Nature and make an armor version
: > [{quoted}](name=Whisper87,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=wszGG6Ej,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-12-04T23:07:28.796+0000) > > My thoughts here are that improving the community and addressing the toxicity could help a lot. One of the major issues with the game, is that even if people are constantly flaming in chat, there are still those who refuse to cooperate with the team, who get so mad that they are the only one who won lane that they just quit out at 20 minutes rather than playing it out despite the fact that the game is winnable, not to mention trolls stealing lanes or autofilled supports abandoning their lane when the ADC can't hard carry them through their fails. So to my mind there are 2 very simple solutions: > > 1. Adopt the same level of 0 tolerance and severity towards all types of toxic behavior as we do against harassment/prejudiced behavior. So that means however likely you are to be punished for a racial slur, and however severe that punishment is...that is how touchy and severe we should be about ALL report categories. There just needs to be one scale, one system across the board. > > I'm not saying that on an objective, moral base that issuing a death threat is the same as intentionally feeding to teach someone a lesson. My point is that no matter what the behavior is, it's still the same mean-spirited intent of an immature player causing this behavior, with the result of frustrating/angering another player and tarnishing their experience. An issue of heavily overinflating the sense of self and not providing a baseline sense of respect for your fellow person simply because they are a person too. However you look at it the reality is that unless someone is being really openly prejudiced or offering violent harassment, people really just are not afraid of being punished. We have to up the anti until it actually hurts to get penalized. > > 2. Punishments handed out during ranked queues carry over into next season. So let's say you get a two week ban during ranked play 6 days before the end of the season. The result in my ideal system would be that you serve out your 6 days during this season, then you can play during the off season where you basically get a soft reset but can be banned as well. Then once the new season starts you serve out the remaining 11 days of your ban, sitting the sidelines while everyone else gets to have fun diving into the new season and getting their match making done. > > I've noticed that toxic behavior outside of typing tends to increase towards the end of the season. Playing in mid-plat ranked for the last month of the season I probably put in close to 100 games. And with no exaggeration it was literally impossible to play 3 games in a row without someone rage quitting or intentionally running it down. I know that what I'm saying focuses a lot more on punishment rather than just removing a toxic player from the community to give them time to cool off, which I know a lot of people will disagree with...but I think it's just where we're at that this is what is needed now. People want to act like children, so maybe they should be treated like children to get pissed off enough to actually do something differently. Their punishment system needs to allow the player to reform, and reforming their behavior should have guidelines in place encouraging reformed behaviors. I said it in an earlier post but locking them out of ranked and PvP and forcing them into Co-Op where they must play nicely in order to get a reduced punishment would be a good way to go about it. The punishments can be severe but there should be an option afforded where the severity can be reduced for showcasing the desired behavior.
> [{quoted}](name=TouchpadExpert,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=wszGG6Ej,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-12-05T07:35:38.626+0000) > > Their punishment system needs to allow the player to reform, and reforming their behavior should have guidelines in place encouraging reformed behaviors. I said it in an earlier post but locking them out of ranked and PvP and forcing them into Co-Op where they must play nicely in order to get a reduced punishment would be a good way to go about it. The punishments can be severe but there should be an option afforded where the severity can be reduced for showcasing the desired behavior. Yeah, I would be very on board with something like a low priority queue for toxic players. I believe Dota 2 does this. Rather than chat restrictions, I'd say we could open with a drop into low priority play, where you must display good behavior to get out. But while in low prio, you are like one strike away from getting banned. Or you could ban players and put them in low prio on their return, but I feel like that would make players a lot more salty than my first option. If we use low prio before issuing a ban, a player has a chance to avoid punishment by improving their behavior in a tangible way.
: League of Legends is a broken game
My thoughts here are that improving the community and addressing the toxicity could help a lot. One of the major issues with the game, is that even if people are constantly flaming in chat, there are still those who refuse to cooperate with the team, who get so mad that they are the only one who won lane that they just quit out at 20 minutes rather than playing it out despite the fact that the game is winnable, not to mention trolls stealing lanes or autofilled supports abandoning their lane when the ADC can't hard carry them through their fails. So to my mind there are 2 very simple solutions: 1. Adopt the same level of 0 tolerance and severity towards all types of toxic behavior as we do against harassment/prejudiced behavior. So that means however likely you are to be punished for a racial slur, and however severe that punishment is...that is how touchy and severe we should be about ALL report categories. There just needs to be one scale, one system across the board. I'm not saying that on an objective, moral base that issuing a death threat is the same as intentionally feeding to teach someone a lesson. My point is that no matter what the behavior is, it's still the same mean-spirited intent of an immature player causing this behavior, with the result of frustrating/angering another player and tarnishing their experience. An issue of heavily overinflating the sense of self and not providing a baseline sense of respect for your fellow person simply because they are a person too. However you look at it the reality is that unless someone is being really openly prejudiced or offering violent harassment, people really just are not afraid of being punished. We have to up the anti until it actually hurts to get penalized. 2. Punishments handed out during ranked queues carry over into next season. So let's say you get a two week ban during ranked play 6 days before the end of the season. The result in my ideal system would be that you serve out your 6 days during this season, then you can play during the off season where you basically get a soft reset but can be banned as well. Then once the new season starts you serve out the remaining 11 days of your ban, sitting the sidelines while everyone else gets to have fun diving into the new season and getting their match making done. I've noticed that toxic behavior outside of typing tends to increase towards the end of the season. Playing in mid-plat ranked for the last month of the season I probably put in close to 100 games. And with no exaggeration it was literally impossible to play 3 games in a row without someone rage quitting or intentionally running it down. I know that what I'm saying focuses a lot more on punishment rather than just removing a toxic player from the community to give them time to cool off, which I know a lot of people will disagree with...but I think it's just where we're at that this is what is needed now. People want to act like children, so maybe they should be treated like children to get pissed off enough to actually do something differently.
: The most ironic part about all of this, is that the champions who's maneuvering ability exceeds the effects of Exhaust, will undoubtedly remain in the lead with a buffed Exhaust. And those that lack such a trait, will have an even more difficult time. In other words, buffing exhaust would be tantamount to pouring cold water onto hot oil.
> [{quoted}](name=UlyssesISR,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dMAnQoEV,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-11-17T16:38:28.984+0000) > > The most ironic part about all of this, is that the champions who's maneuvering ability exceeds the effects of Exhaust, will undoubtedly remain in the lead with a buffed Exhaust. And those that lack such a trait, will have an even more difficult time. > > In other words, buffing exhaust would be tantamount to pouring cold water onto hot oil. I don't think so. The idea is to create a niche wherein Exhaust becomes more valuable than Ignite. To create diversity and reward thoughtfulness. That's why in my list of recommended buffs I suggested increasing the damage reduction and the duration, but not the slow value. If you're playing a champ without mobility, that extra half second isn't going to make a difference. They were already gone or you were already caught after the first 1 second. So I really think it's a wash on that front. However, increasing the damage reduction and the duration slightly cements Exhaust as an anti diver summoner. So now there is a suppression mechanic the enemy assassins and fighters have to play around. For instance, Ekko is a super strong assassin right now. However if you can pop a buffed exhaust on him as he dives in, you could very realistically force him to ult back out of the fight without securing any kills.
: Just nerf Ignite and further nerf TP. Ignite outscales Heal at level 3. That's absurd and makes Heal much less useful. Ignite doesn't just outscale heal at level 3, if applied first it halves the effects of Heal, which is totally unnecessary at that point.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dMAnQoEV,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-11-15T23:14:25.137+0000) > > Just nerf Ignite and further nerf TP. > > Ignite outscales Heal at level 3. That's absurd and makes Heal much less useful. Ignite doesn't just outscale heal at level 3, if applied first it halves the effects of Heal, which is totally unnecessary at that point. The idea isn't to make ignite obsolete, its to make exhaust just as strong in it's own way. Like if an enemy team is running double assassins, then exhaust will provide a ton of value that game. While if they have healing tanks like Mao and Mundo ignite would be a better choice on your supp. Or if you are playing hard kill lane ignite would be better, while enchanters partnered with a scaling adc might favor exhaust to have an ultra safe lane phase.
Ahris (NA)
: The reason why exhaust was nerfed was because it was extremely unfun to play against. As ahri for example, you auccessfuly landed your charm. Yelp, exhaust her and she does nothing, and for the rest of the fight she is completely useless. Defensive summoner spells should all together be removed. It isnt fair for someone to do all their combos but to be denied because of defensive summoner spell.
> [{quoted}](name=Ahris,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dMAnQoEV,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-11-16T17:03:17.783+0000) > > The reason why exhaust was nerfed was because it was extremely unfun to play against. As ahri for example, you auccessfuly landed your charm. Yelp, exhaust her and she does nothing, and for the rest of the fight she is completely useless. > > Defensive summoner spells should all together be removed. It isnt fair for someone to do all their combos but to be denied because of defensive summoner spell. When someone says something that implies that doing lots of damage and securing kills is the only/most fun thing int he game. It's hard to take them seriously.
: Alright so I disagree I have played this game for quite a bit and I havent ever though felt the same. Runes and items offer a lot of stupid and really fun things. One of my favorite times was trying hail of blades top the best being with cho gath where he just annihilates the health bar with AP as build. It might be a little fight focus right now but that doesnt make hit homogeneous. And league still plays with objectives and comebacks still come but the hardest part is actually strategizing and playing with your teammates. I had one of the funnest games in my life was one where my friends and I had a terrible early game but we got serious and strategized what to do and we ended up winning. Also next season is gonna have an extra focus on river objectives and changing the map to make more unique experiences. Finally if you are looking for some competitive strategy game play clash is coming out next year.
> [{quoted}](name=Firesnakefrozen,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=oKnPIFQp,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-15T21:31:14.076+0000) > > Alright so I disagree I have played this game for quite a bit and I havent ever though felt the same. Runes and items offer a lot of stupid and really fun things. One of my favorite times was trying hail of blades top the best being with cho gath where he just annihilates the health bar with AP as build. It might be a little fight focus right now but that doesnt make hit homogeneous. And league still plays with objectives and comebacks still come but the hardest part is actually strategizing and playing with your teammates. I had one of the funnest games in my life was one where my friends and I had a terrible early game but we got serious and strategized what to do and we ended up winning. Also next season is gonna have an extra focus on river objectives and changing the map to make more unique experiences. Finally if you are looking for some competitive strategy game play clash is coming out next year. You're absolutely right that there are a lot of options in terms of champs and builds. In the OP I noted that those are things Riot has done well. What I'm referring to is the very narrow options in terms of win conditions and overall team strategies. Siege comps? Nope. Poke comps? Nope. Hard split push comps? Nope. Support style jungling? Immediately nerfed into nothing after a single split every time it becomes good. Control style jungling over agressive style? Also nerfed into nothing. 4 protect 1 comps that neutralize lane phase and scale up into team fights? Nerfed into nothing. Every time a play style pops up that allows a team to say, "You know what enemies? We're not going to play your game, we're gonna play our game" It gets freaking nuked into oblivion.
: One of the reasons why I really liked the Herald being added, giving top or jungle another objective to secure. Either fighting as a team or securing secretly by yourself(top became a little more fun and less Farmville). Unlike Baron the Herald gives the option of splitting power without commitment, and is more of a guaranteed advantage. I don't care for the added tower-plating, as it gives more gold for tower-focusing, which was already a huge thing prior. I like the added defenses to keep you safe from 3-4 man bot invades, but I don't like the extra gold especially since Herald is used primarily to secure that extra gold(turning the active into a gold boost and not a pressure/split tool). Would love for more strategy to be employed. Maybe next **next** season they'll add Day/Night, that'd be interesting.
> [{quoted}](name=Mr Voidling,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=oKnPIFQp,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-15T21:17:11.304+0000) > > One of the reasons why I really liked the Herald being added, giving top or jungle another objective to secure. Either fighting as a team or securing secretly by yourself(top became a little more fun and less Farmville). Unlike Baron the Herald gives the option of splitting power without commitment, and is more of a guaranteed advantage. > I don't care for the added tower-plating, as it gives more gold for tower-focusing, which was already a huge thing prior. I like the added defenses to keep you safe from 3-4 man bot invades, but I don't like the extra gold especially since Herald is used primarily to secure that extra gold(turning the active into a gold boost and not a pressure/split tool). > > Would love for more strategy to be employed. Maybe next next season they'll add Day/Night, that'd be interesting. I'm with you 50/50 here. I think tower focused play should be a thing. I didn't mind siege comps at all TBH. Low kills games don't bother me the least. But I don't think it should be the only option. You should be able to choose. This game we're going to take strong lanes and just try not to die, our goal will be to make sure we take their outers first, then we group up. Or maybe you want to play a more kill focused game with your mid laner roaming a lot or having top TP down to bottom to make plays. They should both be roughly equally viable styles. I do agree that the tower plating gold is a touch too overtuned though. I think they should exist, but should be more focused on like, we need to get these plates off so we can kill the tower. Rather than farming gold off them. A cool move might be to cut the gold gained from plates down to like 30% of what it's at currently. But then add one more plate, not adding HP, but like dividing it into 1/6's rather than 1/5's. That way you'll still have incentive to damage the tower as it's going to make actually killing it much easier. (The math here add's up cuz while the 6th plate makes the tower tankier, the hp divisions are smaller, so you get to the next plate faster, meaning that over time the tower actually dies quicker. The idea would be that the tower plates aren't just a snowball mechanic. Like a team roams bot and takes a 4v2 bot into 4 plates for a freaking 2k gold swing. BUT...playing a tower sieging focused game like zyra ashe or zyra cait lanes could still be a thing as they would be really good at chipping away at the tower over time.
: > [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=oKnPIFQp,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-15T20:52:31.386+0000) > Sadly, I don't see Riot doing that. I don't believe Riot will ever bring their game back towards what originally made it great and it will eventually implode on itself. 1) You aren't wront. 2) I've said that same line a few times, (and a couple of times I've actually wished that it would happen sooner) The frustrating part for me? technically the games moving towards casual play. I'd rather have a hardcore game than a casual one (hens why I've been playing EFT more and more recently over other shit)
> [{quoted}](name=Śàrutòbïs Ńińjà,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=oKnPIFQp,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-11-15T20:59:15.259+0000) > > 1) You aren't wront. > 2) I've said that same line a few times, (and a couple of times I've actually wished that it would happen sooner) > > > The frustrating part for me? technically the games moving towards casual play. I'd rather have a hardcore game than a casual one (hens why I've been playing EFT more and more recently over other shit) Same, which is something that I feel like is very odd. Like gaming as a culture is growing and becoming more prevalent, but with the increase in accessibility for video games, you have companies ignoring their "core" audience in favor of catering to the whims of fluid consumers. Very odd when you consider that literally nearly every other industry focuses on deepening and creating long term relationships with their consumers.
: Riot needs to 180 and bring strategy and options back into the game. The objective base of the game was not meant to be structured around players constantly killing each other. There has been so much focus on "kill the enemy champs, don't worry about anything else" and some have justified this as "it's just the average player getting better". People forget that there used to be comebacks because players didn't push their advantage enough. Meaningful weaknesses (like Juggernauts not having mobility) end up covered by items that are designed to be used by those champions, that or they don't exist in the first place. Sadly, I don't see Riot doing that. I don't believe Riot will ever bring their game back towards what originally made it great and it will eventually implode on itself.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=oKnPIFQp,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-15T20:52:31.386+0000) > > Riot needs to 180 and bring strategy and options back into the game. The objective base of the game was not meant to be structured around players constantly killing each other. > > There has been so much focus on "kill the enemy champs, don't worry about anything else" and some have justified this as "it's just the average player getting better". People forget that there used to be comebacks because players didn't push their advantage enough. Meaningful weaknesses (like Juggernauts not having mobility) end up covered by items that are designed to be used by those champions, that or they don't exist in the first place. > > Sadly, I don't see Riot doing that. I don't believe Riot will ever bring their game back towards what originally made it great and it will eventually implode on itself. Right? Remember when trading used to be a thing? Now mobility is so rampant with updated champ kits, Cloud Drake, and freaking free Homeguard boot enchants... that punishing people for making a bad play or trading down is waaaaaay too hard. I remember the Hai era Cloud 9 winning game after game by punishing teams for overcommitting. You sent your whole team bottom lane to try and dive and secure Dragon? Tell you what, you just take Dragon, and we'll 5 man mid tower down and leave 1 person behind to keep pushing, then when you come to stop him from hitting your T2, the other 4 of us will be taking your top outer tower. It was beautiful to watch. Yes I know it is frustrating to get run around the map when you are getting macro'd to death, but a lot of things in this game are frustrating. The great thing about trading and macro and objective focused play is that you can learn how to beat it. Stuff like not being able to play the game as a tank top until like lvl 14 cuz you laned against a Darius is largely just static because of stats and the matchup.
m0zz4r3ll4 (EUNE)
: Maybe add a silence to it? This should make it more effective against supps/tanks and prevent assassins from bursting someone down Edit: Im not talking about a full 2.5 sec silence, I mean a short silence (0.5 sec maybe) to give your adc a tiny chance to escape an Alistar/Leona dive
> [{quoted}](name=m0zz4r3ll4,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=dMAnQoEV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-15T20:31:10.483+0000) > > Maybe add a silence to it? This should make it more effective against supps/tanks and prevent assassins from bursting someone down I think that would make it a bit too generally strong. The idea of exhaust is to identify a damage threat and temporarily suppress it. When you add a slience, it becomes very strong against literally anything. So like an early 3v2 or 3v1 tower dive with your Alistar support leading the way gets just removed off the table since they won't be able to engage silenced. Also the silence would make it really strong for preventing the escape of divers. Which I think makes it too generally good as well. The only way you can really justify buffing Exhaust, I think, is to really focus on the niche of it being a protective spell. Doing things like increasing the strength of the slow or adding a silence make it too good offensively.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Considering bruisers build those things I am fine with these changes. One thing though. The whole 50 percent down on the price of the same components( your 3rd point) is not needed. They simply need to reduce the price of the total item by 200- 300 g. Maybe also reduce some bruiser items by 200. Cuz currently only mages benefit from super cheap items. Adc items can stay the same- crit items are below 3000 anyway( shyv, PD etc).
Yeah my pricing suggestions were assuming pricing for other classes remain static. In most cases tanks would probably only have 1 set of stacking items, which would bring the cost of your ENTIRE build down by only like 375-500g. Even if you did do both sets of stacking items, you'd be at least 4 items a that point, and the total cost reduction would only by 875 total. By that point you are getting outscaled by damage dealers as they get their pen.
Rioter Comments
rujitra (NA)
: Most players play partially **because** of the constantly changing nature of the game. If Riot stops all changes until balance is as close to perfect as possible, then players will feel like they're being forced into a rut - nothing new will happen, no meta changes will happen, and it won't be *fun* anymore.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=yBl8ds7W,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-27T23:03:04.976+0000) > > Most players play partially **because** of the constantly changing nature of the game. If Riot stops all changes until balance is as close to perfect as possible, then players will feel like they're being forced into a rut - nothing new will happen, no meta changes will happen, and it won't be *fun* anymore. I feel like that's false logic. Like if the game is pretty close to balanced, then EVERYTHING is at least viable if not 100% meta. Meaning you're only limited by your own knowledge of the game. Currently it's even more boring cuz you have to suffer through a single dominant strat for an entire season.
Rioter Comments
zPity (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Whisper87,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4d7FL7iv,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-10-27T22:07:23.614+0000) > > Ah man really? I mean I guess I could see where you're coming from. But the highly detailed analysis is my favorite part of esports. Even when I'm watching VODs I never skip champ select, cuz I love hearing the casters talk about the strategy and how the different champs work together and how the meta is evolving. And I love to learn and improve, not just play the game. So to hear someone with the benefit of hindsight critique players at the highest level...I mean what better source of learning can you have? i always watch champ select too, i think it's great for her to talk about "the deep stuff" then, however, sometimes i want her to just cast the game. and not give out a 12 step thought process when i feel the players are maybe only thinking about two or three things at a time. (all macro wise)
> [{quoted}](name=zPity,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4d7FL7iv,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-10-27T22:34:39.013+0000) > > i always watch champ select too, i think it's great for her to talk about "the deep stuff" then, however, sometimes i want her to just cast the game. and not give out a 12 step thought process when i feel the players are maybe only thinking about two or three things at a time. (all macro wise) Wait...that's the whole reason they have 2 casters on games. One is the "color" caster, giving the play by plays and hype with descriptive language. The other is the analyst caster. It's literally her entire job to give in depth analysis of the events unfolding. "just casting the game" is the other guy's job.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Arcade Lulu,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4d7FL7iv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-27T21:11:11.781+0000) > > How is she supposed to look more professional then? > Full face of makeup? > Hair in a tight bun? > A blazer and a tight skirt? > > She looks professional enough. This isn't serious af > > _Of course it's the female caster you complain about_ This isn't serious . . . yet riot pours how many millions into the events every year, and blatantly balances around such events? Not all publicity is good, though I would say the entirety of their esports scene is lacking in professionalism lol.
> [{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4d7FL7iv,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-10-27T21:34:49.096+0000) > > This isn't serious . . . yet riot pours how many millions into the events every year, and blatantly balances around such events? Not all publicity is good, though I would say the entirety of their esports scene is lacking in professionalism lol. In traditional sports many of the female personalities often wear things no more professional than slacks or crop pants with a blouse. I don't think we should hold esports to a higher dress standard than regular sports just cuz they are indoors. Plus if you are going to create a strict suit n tie policy, then I think you have to do the same for the coaches. But then again, why should esports coaches have to wear suits when NFL coaches where hoodies n shit?
: > [{quoted}](name=Whisper87,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4d7FL7iv,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2019-10-27T22:03:28.213+0000) > > Is that a real comment? It's not 1950...An undercut is a hair style, not a lack of grooming. It's just a current hairstyle. If she walked in with hair ungroomed and dirty/torn clothes that's a different story. But she is obviously well-groomed and takes care with her look, having said that, it's her look to choose. > > In regards to tattoos, just go google it. A growing percentage of top level executives are sporting tattoos now days. And the number of them with visible in business attire is growing pretty quickly as well. Again it's all about keeping it in good taste. You probably don't want to walk around with a T-shirt or tattoo showing someone getting stabbed. But if you just have aesthetically pleasant body art...then it's no different from expressing yourself through clothing style. yea i guess its current if you're incarcerated
> [{quoted}](name=Park Bora KR,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4d7FL7iv,comment-id=0000000000020000,timestamp=2019-10-27T22:08:24.441+0000) > > yea i guess its current if you're incarcerated You are aware that "plain" and "professional" aren't the same thing right? Someone now getting an undercut is literally no different from someone in the 80's getting a perm. It was just the style at that point in time. A lady getting crazy poofy perm hair now would almost definitely be MORE unprofessional than the undercut, despite the fact that at one point in time it was worn by news anchors and such commonly.
: > [{quoted}](name=zPity,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4d7FL7iv,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-27T21:18:30.734+0000) > > depending on the audience and demographic, professionalism changes. I'm more worried about her casting and I think she gives "macro-credit" to much detail in her broadcasts. I played baseball for 20 years, and to hear a caster/commentator say "he wanted to push that ball into the right-field between the second basemen and the fielder was just a joke (sometimes players at all levels are just trying to hit the ball). I think she talks about the "process" way too much to the point where it is tedious to watch. > > that's my 2 cents. I think for the eSports audience she is "professional" albeit a little "loud" for a broadcaster at the international world event. yeah agree with this. i like her on long form content where she can riff on whatever she wants till the host stops her cause she unpacks a few layers of depth at a time.
> [{quoted}](name=preternatural,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4d7FL7iv,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-10-27T21:27:25.927+0000) > > yeah agree with this. > i like her on long form content where she can riff on whatever she wants till the host stops her cause she unpacks a few layers of depth at a time. That's fair, but on the other side of that what if your main goal is to learn things to take into your own game. It's one thing to listen to analysts sit around and talk about players and strategies and whatnot. But listening to someone catch good plays or mistakes and unpack them IN THE MOMENT...that's how you start to think about those things in your own play while you are playing, rather than retrospectively.
zPity (NA)
: depending on the audience and demographic, professionalism changes. I'm more worried about her casting and I think she gives "macro-credit" to much detail in her broadcasts. I played baseball for 20 years, and to hear a caster/commentator say "he wanted to push that ball into the right-field between the second basemen and the fielder was just a joke (sometimes players at all levels are just trying to hit the ball). I think she talks about the "process" way too much to the point where it is tedious to watch. that's my 2 cents. I think for the eSports audience she is "professional" albeit a little "loud" for a broadcaster at the international world event.
> [{quoted}](name=zPity,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4d7FL7iv,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-27T21:18:30.734+0000) > > depending on the audience and demographic, professionalism changes. I'm more worried about her casting and I think she gives "macro-credit" to much detail in her broadcasts. I played baseball for 20 years, and to hear a caster/commentator say "he wanted to push that ball into the right-field between the second basemen and the fielder was just a joke (sometimes players at all levels are just trying to hit the ball). I think she talks about the "process" way too much to the point where it is tedious to watch. > > that's my 2 cents. I think for the eSports audience she is "professional" albeit a little "loud" for a broadcaster at the international world event. Ah man really? I mean I guess I could see where you're coming from. But the highly detailed analysis is my favorite part of esports. Even when I'm watching VODs I never skip champ select, cuz I love hearing the casters talk about the strategy and how the different champs work together and how the meta is evolving. And I love to learn and improve, not just play the game. So to hear someone with the benefit of hindsight critique players at the highest level...I mean what better source of learning can you have?
: > [{quoted}](name=Arcade Lulu,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4d7FL7iv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-27T21:11:11.781+0000) > > How is she supposed to look more professional then? > Full face of makeup? > Hair in a tight bun? > A blazer and a tight skirt? > > She looks professional enough. This isn't serious af > > _Of course it's the female caster you complain about_ not having neck tattoos and half her hair chopped off for starters
> [{quoted}](name=Park Bora KR,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=4d7FL7iv,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-10-27T21:12:13.281+0000) > > not having neck tattoos and half her hair chopped off for starters Is that a real comment? It's not 1950...An undercut is a hair style, not a lack of grooming. It's just a current hairstyle. If she walked in with hair ungroomed and dirty/torn clothes that's a different story. But she is obviously well-groomed and takes care with her look, having said that, it's her look to choose. In regards to tattoos, just go google it. A growing percentage of top level executives are sporting tattoos now days. And the number of them with visible in business attire is growing pretty quickly as well. Again it's all about keeping it in good taste. You probably don't want to walk around with a T-shirt or tattoo showing someone getting stabbed. But if you just have aesthetically pleasant body art...then it's no different from expressing yourself through clothing style.
: I see what you mean. I wanna help. I don't think this champ has a lot of kill potential. Like how does he get kills? Like sona can definitely kill and so can soraka. If he's being chased down how does he escape, maybe a facade? I can tell you have a very good grasp of personality and team dynamic, but try making a list of game mechanics to keep in mind like chase down potential {{champion:19}} , escape potential{{champion:432}}, kill potential{{champion:202}} {{champion:555}}, map control{{champion:26}}, crowd control{{champion:90}}, cs (last hit){{champion:22}} , how easy it is to aim abilities{{champion:99}}, etc.
His Q would be how he secures kills. He can Q to a teamate and then Q again to dash at an enemy. Then the enemy just has to be hit by his teamate he Q'd to, and they will be stunned and take a bit of burst damage. To clarify, this works like Braum passive where they can be stunned even by a ranged teamate. He's intentionally desiged to be weak on his own but strong with a teamate. You pair him up with a fighter like Jax or fiora and will go nuts. Or have insane value in a full on team fight. In terms of securing picks or skirmishes he would be mediocre. He really depends on teamates to do the damage, he just assures that they win fights. Let's say like Jax finds someone like Renek who would typically be stronger in the mid game. Jax baits out a 1v1 then Tiago come dashing up from behind with a Q, then tags Renek. Between the shield and the damage/CC from the stun, they win the trade. If Renek survives the initial fight, Tiago uses his movement speed from his passive to run with Renek as he escapes and uses W on Jax, allowing him to close the gap for a second rotation of his abilities. So he's not like Threh or Rakan who can just secure a kill with his ADC. But he can secure a kill really easily with champs who want to go in. Imagine he Q's to a Lee who then takes his own Q, delivering them both. And then when they arrive the target gets stunned and bursted. As far as escaping goes, he can also use his Q to get out by dashing to a backliner. Or all of his abilities grant him bonus MS. So assuming he's got mana he could very realistically just run away. I'm sure you're wondering what his big "playmaking" ability is. But that's the thing, he doesn't have one. That's why he gets to be very generalist. He doesn't make highlight reels. However, he is very good at assisting teamates at whatever they want to do. Want to engage? He's a movement speed buff and a shield, along with my engage for a stun. Or his ult could help engage. Want to kite back? Here's my E to help you run and heal up. Want to stand and trade? Here's my W for a stats buff and a deterant to keep them from running by you to our backline. While his ult would be fairly weak (Essentially a worse version of like Janna, Nami, Braum ults), it can be useful in engage, disengage, or to reset fights. He trades in playmaking for versatility. I will fully admit this season he probably would probably low value pick. Like just slightly valued over enchanters like Janna/Nami. But I'm anticipating next season will be much more team fight focused meta. And he's would be really strong with any other front liner. If you only have 1 tank he can act as an off tank. I'm envisioning him playing on a comp like Jax top, Sej jungle, mage like Viktor mid, then send Tiago bottom with a scaling ADC.
: It sounds cool and I really like the creativity on the W, but it seems hacky. Let's just _control the entire team fight_
Yeah, I hear ya. My thought here was that most supports really excel at like one thing. So I was thinking it would be cool to have a generalist support who rather than excelling at 1 thing, was just ok at everything team fight related. For instance Braum is really good at engaging and peel/disengage within the scope of team fighting, or like Janna is best in class at peel. But I think the idea of someone who does a little of everything in a team fight, but is not best in class at anything is cool. And the reason I personally don't feel like it's hacky, is because his kit is pretty bad for everything else. Sure he might be ok receiving a gank, but he's not a lane bully support who will harass people out of lane. He's not going to excel at all ins for kill lanes, unless he receives a gank. And he'd be ok at roaming with his Q, but even that would be mediocre at best. Being that he is a brilliant military mind, he's not really about ganks and picks. He's about setting up a battle field and having a pitched fight.
Rioter Comments
Juice (EUNE)
: Tanks don't do damage? What game are you playing dude ?
Fighters are not supposed to out trade tanks until after a buy or two is in the books. Otherwise the tank would be literally locked under their tower for the first few levels. Even like lvls 2-3 a fighter will generally out dps a tank in an extended fight, I'd just say the quick trades are fairly even. This is by design, not a flaw. The idea is that around the time a fighter beings to outscale a tank in the lane, the tank should have enough items to be able to start grouping and team fighting. This accentuates the specific strengths of the two classes. Early game, you will be pretty much even. Right around the time you transition into mid game, the fighter/dps champ will have the advantage if you let them keep you in a prolonged sidelane, while the tank wants to exit lane and engage team fights where they will have more value. Additionally glass cannon characters like ADC, Asassins, and Mages have to be threatened by tank damage. Otherwise they can just ignore the tanks and walk up and start dps. The role of a tank is CC and zoning, which is made much harder if they do so little damage that an ADC is just able to stand on top of them if their CC is on cooldown. They aren't going to burst people down like a mage or assassin, and they aren't going to do sustained damage like a ADC or fighter, but they have to be able to do a middling amount of damage to properly threaten squishy characters and control team fights. If you're playing an assassin, you shouldn't be trying to run past a tank. You should be flanking or coming from behind, or waiting out CD's and then diving past. If DPS characters didn't die by getting sneezed on they would be wholly unbalanced. I find it odd that there are still people complaining about the strength of tanks when pro players and streamers from gold - challenger are all complaining about how tanks have like 0 agency, and even less impact than other top laners in a meta where top lane already feels gimped.
Frikgeek (EUNE)
: >The other huge problem is that diminishing returns from armor/mr makes these items less effective in terms of guaranteed damage reduction The "diminishing returns" on MR and Armour are a bit deceptive, in terms of EHP both Armour and MR stack linearly just like raw HP does. Yes, going from 100 MR to 200 MR gets you from 50% reduction to 66% reduction which looks like diminishing returns but on the other hand going from 2000(base) + 1000(bonus) HP to 2000 + 2000 HP by buying 1000 bonus HP is also only a 33% increase to raw health. Armor and MR damage reduction is always armor/armor+100. This means that 1 point of armour or MR increases your EHP(effective health) by 1% of your max HP. Let's say you have 3000 HP and 200 armor. That's 9000 EHP. If you buy 100 more armor you'll have 12000 EHP(+3000). IF you buy an additional 100 after that you'll have 15000(+3000 again). So neither health or resistances have better scaling but buying them together gives increasing returns compared to linear if you buy only one. There's a form of actual diminishing returns in Void Staff and the Last Whisper upgrades. Those will get more value the more resistances you have but then again there's also a ton of %health damage in the game and even from items like botrk and Lyandri's.
You're absolutely right with everything above, but the points you bring up actually prove my point that tank items are inherently inefficient. So like you mentioned buying 1k bonus HP might only be a 33% increase in effective health, but you have to get your hands on some raw HP early because it's the only thing that works agains both AD & AP damage, and you've got AP champs going for pen boots + Morello early on. So until you get some big MR items fully built you need that HP. Additionally you've got fighters taking Conqueror for the true damage, so literally HP is the only thing that matters in that scenario. But then you like have to build Armor & MR too cuz you've got so many items and damage sources doing %hp now days. So whenever someone procs Conqueror all your resistances are literally meaningless. Then when you look at armor items specfically, they are pretty bad against anything besides the ADC. Deadman's Plate is not in a good place, Firecape damage is negligible after like level 10 so it's effectively just helping you with your push a little bit. Three of the best items for armor stacking are Randuins, FH, and Thornmail, but guess what? Their attack speed passives don't stack, so you have to make your choices and gimp yourself in some fashion. Every other role in the game becomes more effective as you complete items. Allowing them to synergize well together. For example a mage will likely go Ludens or Archangel first, then they immediately have a bunch of options. If they are doing ok, they could go Morello for the early game power spike, but if there are tanks already stacking MR it might make more sense to go straight Void, but if there are juggernauts on the enemy team who usually stack hp then Liandries might be the buy. Then with your 3rd item you can take like Zhonyas or Banshees for a defensive item that still gives you damage. That will likely get you to 40% cider if you aren't already, but even if you are it converts to AP with proper runes. Same deal with ADC. You Open with a damage + crit or on hit item, then generally go into a zeal item. You have several choices depending on the situation, but no matter the choice the attack speed + crit will scale well with your first item. Tanks right now are super gimped because their itemization is just inefficient. They have super limited options. If I build Fh as my second item because lets say the enemy team has a Irelia and a Xayah, then I want Randuins too for the crit negation and the HP for Conqueror. But guess what? The attack speed passive is wasted. A waste of gold. And then in the early game Aftershock and Grasp are actually pretty important for survivability, but they have CD's so... And if I'm not playing a tank with self-healing, then Adaptive might be my MR buy that game if I'm playing against Cass, but if no one else on the team is a spam caster or on hit damage then it's again, completely wasted passive in any fight where Cass is not present. TLDR: Riot needs to take a very close look at tank items and think about the situations where people would want them, the order they typically buy them in, and what the most desired combos are. And find ways to optimize those combos and open up options as widely as other roles have.
: Role queue actually lowers matchmaking quality.
I definitely agree. I've said for a long time that spoon feeding casuals is going to be the downfall of this game. It has already negatively impacted a lot of other big titles. But yeah, students of the game SHOULD have an inherent advantage over 1 tricks. Now some have made the argument that pro players all just play 1 role at the highest level. But since they are a legit 5 man squad that are hypercoordinated...they all understand each other's roles from scrims/practice/team meetings/vod review, etc. See before there were set roles, you never knew how many matches you'd have to play to get your preferred role. You might go to your 2nd role for 3 games, go to your 3rd preference for 1 game, and get your main only like 1 game in 5. That definitely happened to me a few times. Despite sometimes having to play several games in a row in your "off" role, the beauty of that system is that it forces you to take every match seriously. In the current system when someone gets autofilled, people just are like, "fk it, its only 1 game. I'll be back to my main role for the next handful. So I'll just do whatever this game" and then they pick some champ they've never played before, go full damage no matter the role, and play like an aggro monkey all game long, or abandon their lane when they start to get behind. So a system where you have to be at least serviceable at any role is better not even because it makes you a "better player", but it's just far less open to one guy trolling cuz they got autofilled. They have skin in the game because there is no gurantee they will get their role next game, or even the game after. So they HAVE to go tryhard in every match.
Juice (EUNE)
: What are you talking about? You buy ninja tabi and become invincible to any champ who doesn't use Conqueror
I mean, tanks kind of need a super efficient boots purchase whether they go Tabi or Treads. They don't do any damage around the time people are finishing up their first full item. And since they typically face mixed damage teams, they are automatically gimped because they have to choose whether their first item is MR or Armor. So they aren't even really a tank until they get like 2 full items for the HP, balanced resistances, and some CDR to actually be able to reliably lock people up. If their boots purchase was not super efficient they would just get murdered endlessly in lane and never have the chance to be a tank.
Frikgeek (EUNE)
: If you think armor itemisation is bad then just look at MR. All the MR tank items have been nerfed into uselessness. Spirit Visage is OK if you can abuse the increased healing and Adaptive Helm is ~ok against champions like Ryze or Cassio. But even then 55 MR, 350 health, and 10% CDR isn't amazing for 2800 gold. You can buy a kindlegem for 800, ruby for 400, and then a negatron cloak + null-magic mantle for 720 and 450 respectively. That's 2370 gold for 350 health, 65MR which is 10 more than Adaptive Helm, Spirit Visage, or Abyssal mask, and 10% CDR. Of course, that's not slot-efficient but completed MR items are just total trash, way too much of their cost just goes towards passives which you might not even be able to utilise.
I think a good idea would just be to slightly increase the hp on the HP with MR/Armor items. That way they allow tanks to come online a touch sooner, cuz the hp is good against both types of damage, smoothing out the curve to 2-3 items where a tank becomes a true front-back dive into 5 people tank. The other huge problem is that diminishing returns from armor/mr makes these items less effective in terms of guaranteed damage reduction. As you get more items, the value of the defensive stats becomes extremely mediocre, and instead becomes mostly just about the hp and the unique active/passive. Here's the problem as far as armor is concerned. Items like Thornmail encourage you to stack armor. Like against an AD heavy comp you'd want like Randiuns, FH, and Thornmail heading into the later stages of the game. The problem is that even tho you are getting ok damage return out of the Thornmail, you are getting like nothing out of the armor. And since FH is armor with no HP, you're essentially paying like 2700g for some CDR and a passive attack speed slow. Myself, I wouldn't mind seeing Riot tune down diminishing returns a little bit. They've made a number of moves that have reduced the amount that assassins and the like get outscaled, and it's pretty hard to get to late game anyway in the current meta. So I don't see any issues with like slightly slightly buffing durability of tanks at like the 3 item. I mean the way the game is designed...at 3 items it's SUPPOSED to be in a state where pretty much just ADC, scaling mages, and scaling fighters can easily melt tanks. At least according to RIOT
: Umm, so it's okay to have a guild name called "KY$*"? Really?
Are you certain that's not referencing the state of kentucky?
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Whisper87,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UGdjXNXY,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-10-24T19:45:37.185+0000) > > I think this a big problem a lot of major games have. The company's are so big they lose all their agility in terms of being able to pivot and change the game. And then the boards and reddit get so oversaturated with young /casual players that they drown out all the other voices. > > So Riot creates LOL, they have some good feedback in a healthy environment. But then their audience grows super fast and it becomes impossible to please everyone. What they do notice, though, is that the majority of complaints online are posts about how the game's are too long, how low kill games are important, how they want more fighting and they want it earlier on, how tanks and ADC are better than burst damage...etc,etc. So then they decide to mak the game more focused on individual play, fighting, and up front damage. And they continue to push and push and push in that direction, until it breaks. Until it becomes so one-dimensional that all the complaints online start to outcry about how the over-saturation of burst damage and mobility is ruining the game and tanks feel unplayable. THEN they will look at dialing back a little bit. > > Blizzard did the same thing with WOW retail. They heard the cries for accessibility, then pushed and pushed and pushed until it broke the game so bad it nearly killed it. THEN they hard pivoted. It's the way of the world when corporate penny pinchers have 99% of the power and the creative minds have 1%. You have some good points but what broke wow for me is the devs refusal to add pvp vendors back and their constant need to "reinvent the wheel" I mean say what you will about WoD, it was the last good xpac for pvp... MoP was better of course but the legion templates sucked and the removal of pvp vendors honor/conquest points to buy gear was a step in the wrong direction. There's literally no sense of pvp progression, I would have 3-4 characters that I literally played/geared up through pvp only, I found ways to be relevant ( clever blood lusts or caps/spinning flags ) as a fresh max level. Now I just to step in the ring I need all this azerite power/farm the appropriate traits on gear and get those new relics ( can't remember the name cause I quit playing but the new spells they added for azerite necklaces). I mean legitimately, you can't really just hit max level and only pvp now but then again I guess pvp is just a small % of the community.
> [{quoted}](name=Semaj3xt4h,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=UGdjXNXY,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-10-25T12:50:52.262+0000) > > You have some good points but what broke wow for me is the devs refusal to add pvp vendors back and their constant need to "reinvent the wheel" I mean say what you will about WoD, it was the last good xpac for pvp... MoP was better of course but the legion templates sucked and the removal of pvp vendors honor/conquest points to buy gear was a step in the wrong direction. > > There's literally no sense of pvp progression, I would have 3-4 characters that I literally played/geared up through pvp only, I found ways to be relevant ( clever blood lusts or caps/spinning flags ) as a fresh max level. Now I just to step in the ring I need all this azerite power/farm the appropriate traits on gear and get those new relics ( can't remember the name cause I quit playing but the new spells they added for azerite necklaces). I mean legitimately, you can't really just hit max level and only pvp now but then again I guess pvp is just a small % of the community. I think you and I are saying the same thing... Even with not being able to just do your one thing, just PVP end game is part of the same problem. See, they've tried to supplement their paper thin content by forcing you to do a little bit of everything. It ties back in to what I was saying before: oversimplification for the sake of accessibility and/or lower time commitment. Which results in very superficial content, which results in boredom. So they try to incentivize you to do a bunch of different things. There is no more just staying in your lane any more, at least not while still being efficient with your time.
: The problem with Kalista
I'd be ok with that, I actually think that's a very balanced approach
: So how is Jax weak in early game actually?
Yeah Jax has very large CD windows with his Q and E until he gets tri force and a bunch of levels. Meaning his windows of mobility and advantageous trading are super, super limited. Also his E only blocks basic attacks so anyone who does a lot of their early game damage through abilities is gonna wreck him regardless of the E. The other thing about Jax is that Malphite and Nasus both counter him. So two champs who are typically useless in lane phase get a free lane against him. And from like level 6-13 Malph is gonna be waaaaay more valuable in team fights, and Nasus is like the only champ who actually outscales Jax.
vnknøwn (EUW)
: sanguine blade is coming for ad assassins that will give a lot of tower dmg with an attack speed passive similar to lethal tempo, and with built in lifesteal. and yet no items for ap assassins to avoid crowd control or to control vision. also if ap assassin don't come online is a big if, getting behind on any assassin is wrecking and so hard to come back from. assassins are early game champs, you have to win early.
Yeah I get that assassins are all supposed to be super focused on early-mid game snowball. I just don't get why Ad vs AP have differently scaling across the board. I feel like there should more of a mix
vnknøwn (EUW)
: The state of ap assassins
I have a similar concern. I feel like AP assassins and AD assassins are very...similar in terms of power curve. Like Akali, Fizz, Ekko all I think are weaker in the early game than stuff like Zed, Talon, Quiyana. But when they come online...they scale faaaaaar better in the late game. So I guess I'm wondering why there are no AP assassins who can match Quiyana's early game pressure? And why not any AD assassins who can scale as well as like Ekko/Akali in the late game? Now that towers take bonus damage from AP with auto attacks, and Yomuus no longer grants attack speed...objective pressure doesn't really line up as a legitimate reason. I just think it's kind of weird and needlessly limiting...
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Whisper87

Level 208 (NA)
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