: State of Annie
I kind of agree with this even in a broader sense. Part of what has made it so hard to balance the meta, and has restricted styles and champion picks so much is the necessity for champs to be generalists. Once you release a few champs who have good mobility, good damage, decent laning phase, at least mediocre wave clear. Why would you play anything else? In my opinion that game would be much more interesting if champs, as you said, were slightly more one dimensional. For every strength they have, they should have a glaring weakness elsewhere in their kit in direct proportion. Annie has low mobility and mediocre wave clear, and unreliable CC. In that context her being able 100-0 someone in one combo makes sense. If damage is literally the only good thing about her, then her damage should be insane. That same mentality should be carried over into most champions. I'm not saying every champs should be one dimensional, but I absolutely think one dimensional champs should have that one dimension strengthened to a point where they are viable at pro play. And I think the game could benefit from having a couple more champs with kits like that. And for a certainty all champs should be with that mindset: IF YOU ADD STRENGTH IN ONE AREA YOU HAVE TO REMOVE IT FROM ANOTHER AREA IN DIRECT PROPORTION. For me, a champ like Yassuo have far too high of a ceiling. Certainly, he is heavily gated by mechanical skill and player confidence. But, I think his potential is far too high when you consider: he's highly mobile, he's got good burst damage, he's got good sustained damage, he's got a very smooth power curve throughout the game with no major troughs and scales insanely, he's got one of the strongest non-ult enablers/defensive tools in his W, and his shield allows him to be tankier than assassins and in fights where he is allowed to dps he becomes nearly as tanky as a juggernaut due to regen on his shield. What Riot should do when designing a champ, is provide categories and designated number scales. Every champion should have an overall power level of say 50. Then Riot creates categories like burst damage, sustain damage, offensive utility, defensive utility, mobility, tankiness, single target damage, aoe damage, attack range, vision/map control. Then each of those cats get's ranked 1-5. If the number you come up with is higher than 50, the champ needs a nerf. If it is lower than 50, it needs a buff. A universal approach like that will balance the game and allow both champion AND strategy diversity to be in the game. Which is something that seems to be missing.
: Randuin's should lower ms when attacked
Yeah, I wouldn't hold out hope for something like that until next season. Riot is really hanging onto keeping fighters strong in the meta this season. I'd say it's like one of the primary staples of the season. I think a change like that is totally balanced and might come back one day for sure. It' s just that there is a lot of hype around fighters top and the overall damage heavy meta, and people were complaining about tanks for so long. Personally I think high damage comps every game are just as boring as tanks in every game, but yeah...buffs to armor/MR items are probably an off-season type thing. Hopefully soon though!
: It used to. Giving it back might make the item decent and defensive items aren't allowed to be anything but shit (Visage excluded).
> [{quoted}](name=Darkdemon653,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=AhbLGjEJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-29T13:49:19.763+0000) > > It used to. Giving it back might make the item decent and defensive items aren't allowed to be anything but shit (Visage excluded). Yeah, I'd love to see resistance/armor items make a comeback. I'm so sick of the Warmogs - Stoneplate business. I want to see some Frozen Heart second item pickups again, Randuins, Thornmail. I recognize a lot of the value has been taken out of those armor items specifically since attack speed in general is not as pervasive of an issue as it once was. And also since Conqueror gives true damage. So maybe now that I think about it, the real answer here to is to get rid of a lot of the true damage in the game and increase the early value of resistance items over raw HP. I'd also like to see Force of Nature make a comeback. While I don't want tanks to become mandatory in the meta, a high MR-high hp regen item would allow tanks to lane against things like Vlad, Neeko, Ryze. Or provide a good early buy against stuff like Zoe - Corki. In the past the way tanks have been made meta is by allowing them to have pretty decent damage or wave clear. What if instead of giving them strong control/fighting stats, riot just allows them to get tanky earlier? Like no, you're a tank, you're not going to do decent damage early game, it's going to be pretty shitty. And your wave/lane control will probably be just ok at best. So you will be nothing but a meat shield early on. But you will be able to become a meat shield around the same time other champs are becoming damage threats, not far later.
: Honestly, I loved watching games during the bot diversity meta the most...... I find Ziggs cancerous and I hate Yasuo inn every way conceivable..... But I enjoyed watching {{champion:115}} {{champion:74}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:157}} in not lane. I like watching {{champion:37}} + {{champion:44}} or the {{champion:86}} + {{champion:350}} EU craze right now.... Not because they are flashy(they are indeed the opposite of flashy), but because they are ingenious changes to the meta. I've forever wished any champion hitting 34% play presence in pro would be disabled for pro play for a smash number of games.... I feel their rules and their balance should new different than the general populace because the games and tactics are very different. Give me my adcs junglers (not the standard ones), my dual bruiser bot lanes, my mid tanks and caster tops.... I love seeing the standard change and change often (just keep one tactic from being literally the only viable one). I miss second iteration dual Masamune top lane {{champion:44}} beater.... Farm under turret until tear is stacked then catch everyone by surprise as you point and click stun and hit hard... The spike comes so suddenly it's great to watch.
All that is true and I totally agree the unique champ picks are good. But what I'm looking for is not just one single way to play the game. Right now the game, no matter which champs you choose, is focused very singularly on developing early leads, getting lane pressure, getting aggressive, you have to be able to skirmish early and often cuz team fighting might not ever really happen, and full poke siege comps are dead. I'd like to see vastly different win conditions all be relatively equal in viability. 5 poke champs comps, 4 protect 1 comps, all in 1-3-1 comps, front to back team fight comps, AOE wombo combo comps, no gank-heavy control style jungling. I'd love to see all of those have presence in both pro play and solo q. I feel like we were there at one point, then it got away from us.
: >I'm seeing a pattern that has developed over the past several seasons that I find VERY problematic. I think a lot of it has to do with the broad reworks across entire classes, or entire item sets, but I also think A LOT of it is intentional by Riot. The pattern is that rather than working towards a universal sense of unified balance across styles of play, Riot seems to have decided on a single style of play that they deem "correct" and just pushed that forward, rapidly removing options. Let me illustrate with examples: Actually, it's usually the players who cause this to happen. Let's take some recent examples of where new picks come out: * Viktor top lane: Deemed "cancer". Community outcry forces it to die. * Aatrox/Urgot/Irelia mid: Deemed "cancer". Community outcry which eventually forces changes for all three. * Non-ADC Bot lanes: ADC players rage so hard they revert a good chunk of ADC changes. * Solo lane Tristana: Again, deemed as a sign of bad times. I don't believe it's gotten changes yet? * Tank Driver Yuumi (Yuumi + Tanky DPS like Garen): Yall know where this one is going. For a community that preaches about how it misses "diversity" and "unique picks", the moment one appears it's deemed unfun, wrong, or "not using the character as they should be". I can't imagine if original Sion or AP Yi existed today. Those champs would have been gutted so hard they'd have never existed in history.
You're kind of missing my point. I'm not referring to diversity of champs as much. I mean that inherently will be part of it. But I care far less about champion diversity than I do about overall strat/style diversity. Yes having a lot of different champs is fun. But when you play and watch hundreds of matches per season, you can see how seeing the same ish over and over is old. The emphasis on up front damage, on early aggression, skirmishing - - it's been getting more prominent ever since the ardent nerf (at which time there was the same issue just with tank/enchanter lineups). See even when there are a lot of champs you can play, you're just using different spells/skills to accomplish the same thing. What I'm looking for is a wide array of very different win conditions and iterations of play come through. I want to see 5v5 wombo combos come through, I want to see comps 100% committed to poke come through, Kayle-Nidalee-Trundle-Kog-enchanter line ups again, old school nunu run you around the map and counter jungle your face off while owning the vision game and rarely ganking. All of these different style that have a unique way to play, almost bordering on a mini game in some situations. Those were fun. Remember teams running Twitch + Rumble (at worlds) for the fatty straight line damage and nutty corridor control? I think as a community when a certain style of play arises that is strong, if it's not our own preferred style of play or way to play the game, or even worse it counters our preferred style of play, we are WAY to quick to deem it toxic and cry out for nerfs. We don't want to have to learn new styles and get outside our comfort zones.
Cloud273 (NA)
: So why did Jax and Nocturne get buffed again?
Because Riot supports the community addiction to damage. If Aatrox is overtuned...rathe than Nerf him, because he's exciting and a fan favorite, they buff other champs to become just as OP. To your Jax point specifically, though, Jax previously was not nerf worthy before. See the concept of a champion scaling to infinity and essentially being the literal best at dueling late game is not inherently an issue. It only becomes an issue if your early game doesn't suck. If your early game is garbo, then you can be literally the best late game champ there is. It's a trade off right? But this is where Riot drops the ball by chasing audience approval like a dog chasing it's tail. They have to make games shorter and make fighting happen earlier cuz the 15 year olds are getting bored. But then they also have to let scaling side lane champs be strong cuz those same selfish, "I'm gonna carry through a high light reel or I'm going to lose quickly" players also get mad when the game demands they learn how to team fight, control vision, and play the map. They want solo laners impact. So they need Jax to be a viable pick, but they also need his early game to not be complete trash anymore. They backed themselves into a corner by not putting their foot down and saying, "Hey guys, we hear you, and we understand, but we believe in the long run that style of change/game is not going to be healthy for gameplay and champ pools long term" It's all smoke and mirrors, all a refusal to appear as anything other than a yes man to your customers. And it breaks the game, ruins the integrity of the product. It's a short term gain for an exponential increase in risk long term. Same problem blizzard and many other top game producers have. They pass control to penny counters, who dictate that dev teams soak up as much profit as they can right now, leaving no freedom to create a long term tradition and overarching game. Think of the NFL and NBA and traditional sports like that. They change very slowly and intentionally, but because there is no competition for the quality of their product and players they sustain year after year. Not worrying about reinventing the game, but tweeking to increase gains over time
: I want to be able to pick more than just fighters in top. I dont want mages taking over the lane, rather have mages that were designed to go top to be able to top (Swain). Tank tops are a suicide pick (which is hella lame). Combine the balance issues both top and jg have, and that side of the map is just...stale. I love Aatrox, but at the same time I shouldn't be stuck having to spam him 24/7 because hes the only meta toplaner I have practiced in my pool because pools changed rapidly.
Yeah, when Jatt nerfed scuttle so that the champ pool of top/jungle would not be so pinched, and to open up playstyle in the early game. That was a move in the right direction. Your whole early game doesn't revolve around being able to guarantee at least 1 of 2 scuttles, or being able to secure a 3 buff in lieu of that. But clearly it wasn't an impactful enough change. I love that lee sin is meta, I love that AP Gragas jungle is a thing, I love that Irelia top lane is viable. I hate that you can't play tanks top, that Sej is head and shoulder above other tank picks in jungle. It all comes back to the same issue of you have to be able to fight early, you have to have high single target kill pressure, you have to be able to skirmish. If you can't win the 1v1 with the enemy jungler, you have to be able to at least hold your own. Securing vision and AVOIDING the enemy jugnle in favor of a team fight oriented pick is not a thing anymore. Fewer options=more boring Riot seems to fail to understand that. I mean, they get that when it comes to champ diversity, but they are clueless when it comes to strategy/style diversity. They don't understand that both are equally important to the overall robustness/interest level of a game.
Rioter Comments
BanMorde (NA)
: How is this bannable
I'm pretty sure it's nigh impossible to get permabanned off of 1 game. So you probably had several other offenses before this particular game. It's just the reality of the situation that the current system punishes volume of toxicity more than severity. So if you've been reported several times over the past couple months for things like going afk when ur team falls behind, refusing to cooperate with team, light trolling.... You're just as likely to be permabanned as someone who is like chewing out their teamates with racial slurs mixed in over the past couple months. It's not like soccer where there are red cards and yellow cards to indicate severity and proximity to getting tossed out. It's more like strikes in baseball, after you hit that 3rd strike you're done, regardless of what led to that strike.
Bonten (NA)
: Assassins thrive off of misplays. The only world they are good in is when their opponent doesny respect them or when their opponet respects them too much. Thats why noone likes assassins because they cant admit they fucked up. If an assassin doesnt get ahead then they are pratically useless. Unlike mages that can play from behind being safes with massive aoe damage. Take a look at vladimir a mage that doesnt need an escape because he can just 1 shot the entire backline with healing. Going into a pool. And then hourglassing
The problem is that assassins are no longer truly boom or bust. I think the core of the complaint in this thread is that assassins no longer have the same size of threat of failure as they once did. Taking a look back to assassins before Runes Reforged and lethality changes. Assassins were on a hard timer. If it got to late game, they weren't just bad at nuking tank champs, they became bad at nuking ANY champ, including ADC. Back then, the only way an assassin would 100-0 a 6 item lvl 18 ADC was if they committed their entire kit, not saving any skills for escape, and praying there wasn't an enchanter nearby to heal/shield. The introduction of lethality and things like electrocute and a buffed Gunblade make it so that assassins aren't bad in the late game anymore. They are just bad at killing tankier champs, where in the past they were pretty much just bad in the late game across the board. So within that context it's ok for an assassin to have lot's of options and be able to achieve kills without committing his full kit for damage in the early and mid game. Because in that context the assassin has to achieve a nutty snowball through either roaming/killing or split pushing within the first 15-20 mins of the game. Because if he didn't he was going to fall off hard. The trade off is there. A true boom or bust scenario. So now consider the 4 following facts and you will understand the frustrations: 1. Scaling adc have been nerfed so that the point where they can turn and kill an Assassin after a failed nuke attempt is much, much later in the game. 2. Assassins stay relevant for longer than they once did. 3. The major counters to assassins require coordinated teamplay, through things like vision control, itemization, teamate positioning, and planned cc. This makes them a menace in solo Q, not pro play, since play in solo q is....solo. Champs who excel within the context of individual outplay/options automatically get bumped up a tier in solo q. 4. Riot has squished the game as a whole in terms of timings, making the game faster pace and shorter length overall. However, while the overall game length has been shortened, the window of major power for assassins was actually extended rather than shortened in proportion with game length. I'm not saying that I think assassins are so insanely busted that the class as a whole needs another rework. But I do think some minor adjustments are in order. In my opinion, being an Ashe 1 trick should feel just as good in solo Q as being a Fizz/Zed 1 trick. In order for assassins to function well within their role, but maintain a healthy environment for casual play...I think they have to become hardcore feast or famine characters by necessity.
: I've been saying this for a while. Riot has lowered the skill cap to keep mediocre players happy. High damage champions should be much harder to play, but they are so safe these days that they don't require the skill they used to.
Agreed! They are able to rely 100% on muscle memory and don't have to worry about things like positioning and decision making because of the nature of solo Q. Which is why it's problem outside of pro play and not within it. Here's a breakdown of what I think the power curve for assassins should look like generally. Obviously there will be deviations, but this is just like an outline to use to illustrate. * At 0 kills - Any assassin should need to commit their entire kit + Ignite to achieve a 100-0 on even a glass target * After achieving their first kill - Assassins will either need to commit their full kit, but no longer need ignite to nuke a target. Or they can save a skill for escape if they do have ignite up. * After 4 kills - assassins can 100-0 glass targets without ignite while still saving 1 skill for escape
: > [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NNpvGm1j,comment-id=000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-12T17:18:34.772+0000) > > So, you’re saying that Eve can’t choose to maximize her damage unless her ult is up to escape. While that's true, I don't see the point in bringing that up; no champion can be played to its maximum without a ready ult.
Absolutely correct. And that is the core of the issue here. You have assassins running around able to pretty easily accomplish 100-0 without having to commit their full kit. And honestly they don't even need to be snowballing to reach that point. If an assassin is not behind when they hit their first item, they can generally 100-0 an ADC or mage without having to commit 100% of their resources. I think what most people want from assassins is to be in a place where they DO have to commit their full kit to achieve kills. THEN, once they have a few under their belts, they are snowballing and it's excusable for them to be able to nuke folks and still save a skill or two for escape.
: > [{quoted}](name=Darkdemon653,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NNpvGm1j,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-11T16:04:12.050+0000) > > That is the reason I like the designs of, for example, Fizz, Ekko, and sort of Talon and dislike the designs of, for example, Eve, Zed, and LeBlanc. The first set of champions has to choose between maximizing damage and having an escape and the second set is guaranteed both. I'm pretty sure a good chunk of Zed's damage comes from hitting you with his shadow's abilities in addition to his own, though. Seeing as that shadow is also his escape and it's on a fairly lengthy CD for most of the game (since he maxes it last)... I also don't get what you mean by Talon having to choose. Talon's escape ability isn't part of his damage rotation and doesn't even really need more than one rank in it to function.
I think he's referring to like a "get out of jail free card". Zed can choose to shadow clone out, no matter where he is on the map. Talon has to be in a position where he can use his parkour to escape over a wall, not to mention it has an animation and is not instant like Zed/LB blink back. So similar to Ekko, Talon has to decide whether he wants to use his ult for damage or wants to hang on to it to escape. So while Zed may not maximize damage if he leaves himself the option to W back out, there is virtually no risk to at least trying it. I think the point everyone upvoting this thread is making, is that every assassin needs a pretty heavy dose of "Ok, if I go in, and do not successfully 100-0 my target quickly, I very well may die." And to your point about Zed needing to land his shadow abilities to maximize damage, that would probably be a great area for riot to easily tweak assassins without nerfing them into existence. They could adjust assassins to pretty much need to use their full combo in order to accomplish a 100-0, even against a glass cannon ADC. I feel like that would be very balanced.
: When will Riot admit that modern assassins are too forgiving?
I think you're also addressing the larger issue of not just champ balance, but a steady trend in a shifting design philosophy. Riot had been poking around at this for quite some time, but right around the time Runes Reforged rolled out, there was a huge push at forcing players into a more "exciting" style of play. More skirmishes before team fights, shorter lane phase, shift in gold to encourage roaming, skirmishes happen earlier, several changes which nerfed poke champs except for the S tier ones like Zoe/Ezreal...the list goes on. You can hear caster talk about it during LCS casts for the past year, that the game encourages 60/40 plays, that the "lane kingdom" style of play is stronger than it had been in a long time, etc. Now while all of this sounds exciting on the surface, and yes is often fun for viewing purposes. Think about the folks who follow LOL as religiously as the average American follows traditional sports. When you play/view the game on a literal daily basis, this one dimensional style of game gets very boring as it's the same thing over and over again, DESPITE having a higher degree of champ diversity than there has been in a couple seasons. And that might be the biggest red flag. The fact that a lot more champs than before are viable, but somehow every game still feels very similar. I have nothing wrong with people relying heavily on mechanics and micro play to win games. The problem is that when this one style of play is all you ever see for the first 25 minutes of every game, it gets very repetitive. Over the past several seasons, the number of viable win conditions has been trimmed down a little. And the variety of play styles pre 20 mins has been cut down drastically. When was the last time you saw a full siege comp succeed? What happened to control style jungling? How about 4 protect 1 comps? What about trading down objectives to bleed slowly instead of rapidly and stabilize the game for a comeback? All of these things have been pushed aside, diluting the robust nature of the game. Again, there is nothing wrong with the style currently dominating the meta. But it should not be the only style, and we should be able to see multiple different styles succeed before 25 mins. Has anyone noticed how 1-3-1 comps and 5 v 5 comps pretty much play the same through the early and mid game now? Because the game design punishes you too hard for deviating from this one predominant style. If we want lane dominance, skirmishing, mechanics, etc to be important elements of the game, great. But we need other elements of the game that should be equally impactful. Macro,map positioning, and wave control being some examples. Again I'm not saying we need to go back to the lane swap meta where macro ruled all. But if a veteran team wants to lean heavily on their team fighting skills and macro instincts honed from years of play, that should be just as reliable as these younger riskier teams pulling out mechanically intensive champs and crazy counterpicks and spamming 60/40 plays. Diversity in style over time, over many games, is more important and more exciting than one agression heavy style over and over.
: > [{quoted}](name=PB4UAME,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=92L2jOzQ,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-08T23:20:47.834+0000) > > I mean, no actually, literally nothing in the game scales as well, let alone harder than ADCs. The problem is more that games never get to late game anyway. But seriously, try to name one single example of even one champion that scales harder than {{champion:67}}, {{champion:145}} or {{champion:222}} I'll phrase it better. They don't scale harder, they simply scale enough. Sure Irelia isn't pumping out damage like Jinx late game but she is destroying everything anyways. You don't need to scale better than Jinx, you just need to scale enough where her scaling is irrelevant. Renekton, Aatrox, Akali, K6 they don't need to scale like ADCs to be relevant late game. Also not every ADC scales like Jinx or Vayne. Some ADCs are not particularly strong late game.
I think both of you are making good points. #1 the fact that most games don't make it to the point where ADC hit their stride is the primary issue. As I stated in my other post, it's this shitty situation where you have to take an ADC in case it does go that late, but if it's doesn't you're just a lesser, but necessary champ on the map. Having said that, the scaling is also an issue. If the first 20 minutes of the game are going to be a nail-biting nightmare for marksmen, then by god you had better outscale pretty much everything by a significant margin. Essentially only things like Jax and Anivia should be able to compete with ADC late game. I'm actually ok with the idea that ADC are really easy to 1 shot, and that they take a long time to come online. Those elements feel fair based on the idea that your ADC becomes exponentially more important as the game goes on. BUT...the trade off needs to be there. So if we are going to heavily restrict ADC's in both their timing and their positioning, then we need to go back to the days where a fighter or assassin would try to dive the ADC, but if he does not succeed...well then the 4 item ADC should be able to just turn and murder the fighter/assassin if they don't have a dash or flash available. That's a balanced situation.
: ADC 2k19 - Why does it feel bad to play an adc?
I like the data oriented approach here! It's true, that the ADC position has once again become highly problematic in the scope of the LOL landscape. In the past, ADC's were essentially your primary source of damage in team fights. In skirmishes, which are much quicker, typically your fighters, assassins, and AP characters are going to have the most impact. The current meta is largely focused on gaining advantages during the lane phase, as well as picks/skirmishes. It's been a very damage heavy meta for a while, which is not necessarily a friendly environment for ADC's. Following the line of logic from these two points, you essentially are being bucketed in to having to play something which is meant to spike in the early-mid game (Ezreal or Lucian), or you need to play something that scales well, but has ways of providing strong utility or applying pressure from a long distance (Jinx, Sivir, Ashe, Kai). Everything else becomes highly situational or pocket picks. This all stems from a "have your cake and eat it too" approach from Riot. They felt pressure from the community that they game focused too much on team fighting and macro (the ideal situation for an ADC), so they decided to do a number of things to make mechanics and micro more important, increasing the ability to turn lane advantage into win conditions, increasing snowball, encouraging fighting earlier, speeding up the game pace, etc. There are too many changes here to note them all, but a few examples are nerfs to tanks, nerfs to adc's, nerfs to enchanters, nerfs to vision, buffs to assassins, buffs to early drakes, scuttle changes, etc. But when all of these changes combined to put the game in a state where ADC are only played like 50% of the time...ADC mains complain, the game becomes hard to balance, so Riot dials back some of the changes. So let's tie in this approach with the problematic logic. All ADC but a handful are designed to really hit their stride in group fights, and/or around the 3 item point. The vast majority of that class of champion is designed to do one thing, win team fights. But conversely, the rest of the game is changing to make team fighting a less impactful, or at least less prolific part of the game. The game is being pushed to a point where games are often decided before team fighting really begins, and it's becoming easier to avoid team fights all together. While siege comps are not nearly as prolific as they used to be, the split n pick play book has become about as strong as it's ever been I'd say. And there's the problem at it's core: There is a decent chance team fighting won't even come into play, but if it does and you don't have an ADC, ur screwed. So there are two options from where I'm sitting to fix this issue: 1) Adjust the champion landscape so that it's similar to DOTA, wherein marksmen are absolutely a viable option for scaling carry, but certainly not anywhere near a requirement. 2) Instead of putting the game in a position where it's easy to develop an insurmountable lead before "team fight phase" or easy to circumnavigate team fighting all together...instead you put the game in a position where you know there is almost certainly going to be a few team fights, and your goal as a pick/poke/early-mid game comp is to develop such a strong lead that when team fighting does break out the compositional weaknesses don't matter.
: Bring back the uniqueness that old runes provided
Totally agree. It's funny because a lot of people talked about the lack of champ diversity up until like a season ago. And while runes reforged did kind of encourage champ diversity, it did so in unhealthy ways. As in the sole reason a champ is viable is because of their ability to abuse a specific rune set up. Like POM Kassadin, or Aftershock tanks top. As soon as that specific combo got nerfed...no more Kassadin, no more tanks top. Because under the current set up, you are playing the runes as much as you are playing the champ. Which is a poor design. I would argue that the old rune set up was actually better for diversity cuz even if tanks too weren't super meta, you could do something like take a tank tops with a pure hp and armor rune set up and just neutralize your Riven/Irelia/Fiora lane. Now that option is largely gone because you don't have access to resources necessary to build highly situation-specific custom setups.
Nazgul10 (EUNE)
: They're just trying to give new additions to the game and they fail miserably. For example, look at Zoe, Neeko and Sylas. They all have the same premise, take something from the enemy or the ally. Zoe takes summoner spells, Neeko takes ally forms, and Sylas takes ultimates. It's the same basic concept recycled. Riot just doesn't understand what to do. They release champions, nerf them, rework them and rinse repeat. Look at Banner of Command. They had been trying to fix it for ages and then they just removed it with no intention to bring it back. They kind of reworked IE and reverted it again. Riot doesn't know what they want to do and they can't make up their mind. They made Tahm Kench into a solo lane monster, and then they made him completely useless in every lane. Like I honestly don't understand what they're TRYING to do with the game at this point.
That's what happens when game producers start chasing fan-boy feedback, instead of deciding on a set design philosophy and stating what that philosophy is publicly. Riot is second only to Blizzard when it comes to smoke & mirrors antics in my opinion. One season they will come out with a blue post saying they believe LOL is a team game first and foremost, and that they intentionally design it in a manner where 1 player is not supposed to be able to hard carry 4 failures. Then two seasons later there have been patch after patch that emphasizes the importance of lane dominance and the ability for players to snowball. Actions completely contradicting their statement. Personally, I'm glad to start seeing big game devs like Blizzard and Riot start to get crucified for over monetizing their games. If you haven't seen the interview where Steve Jobs describes what happens when a small company creates an amazing product out of their passion, hard work, and ingenuity...and then let's the power shift into the hands of marketers and penny-counters as the company expands at an amazing rate. It illustrates perfectly what is happening at Blizz, and what will likely start happening at Riot if things don't change soon.
Youngcuck (EUW)
: Riot's balancing is like trying to patch up a sinking boat with a thousand holes
I agree with most of what you're saying here. A lot of what you say is unprecedented, has actually been in DOTA 2 for a long time, but to your point, one of the biggest complaints about DotA is that the champs are so strong in very specific ways that the point of entry is extremely high. To a certain extent, champion skills are designed to break the rules of the game. But there does come a certain point where there are 0 hard and fast global rules, and literally every principle of the game has several exceptions. And that is the point we're talking about, when it becomes near impossible to balance, and very unsatisfying to play if you don't enjoy the new or newly reworked champs, or hard falling in line with the meta. To me, the problem is that despite what you say, Riot still has not nailed down a solid direction for the game. They have opted not to have stationary target for design, which they can consistently design champs to fall I line with, and continually refine. Instead, they have opted to follow the feedback of redditers and casual players who have very little truly objective understanding of the game, and to prioritize spectator enjoyment over player enjoyment. The result is a meta that is spiraling at a very, very high rate, like a dog chasing it's take. Everyone playing damage comps? Buff tanks. Tanks too strong? Buff crit adc. Crit adc too strong? Nerf them and buff assassins. Etc, etc. It's just an endless, pointless circle. The definition of change for the sake of change. Riot says they want LOL to become a tradition just like pro traditional sports, but think about how rapidly and erratically LOL changes compared to how slowly and intentionally NFL or NBA games have changed. Riot has completely done away with the idea of a core set of fundamentals that are unchanging and that cantinually be practiced/refined. Imagine if in basketball you spent your entire life becoming a 90% free throw shooter, then one day the NBA said, "Hey, turns out free throws aren't exciting and it's too reliable of a way to get points. So to shake things up we're going to make it so that you only get 1 free throw under all circumstances, and we're going to allow waaaay more physical contact before calling a foul". Riot makes changes of that scale multiple times per season. An example of this is how quickly international competition has caught up to Korea over the past year and a half or so, particularly EU. Now I'm fully willing to concede that other regions are finally getting on their level to a certain degree. But this shrinking of the gap has been extremely rapid. Why? Because Korea as a region has long been touted as the regional who most rigidly adheres to fundamentals of the game. Not the meta, no. They have been known to bring out pocket picks more often then say, NA. But unlike EU they don't do it to just roll the dice on the individual mechanics of a certain player, or just to play something they opponents aren't prepared for. You'd instead see Korea do something like pull out Maokai top at world's after he has been virtually unplayed at the pro level for a year. Because they approach the game with forethought and understanding, and know that while Mao in general was mediocre or even subpar at the time, his kit in that specific game, against those specific champs, he was actually a very strong pick. This almost manic need to make more fighting happen, and happen earlier in the game, is purely a pacification of the very casual player. And is causing Riot to do something which has been a downfall of several other games including WOW. They bow down to the casual Reddit shouters, and when they get a somewhat positive response, they push and push in that same direction until the game breaks. They only recently started to pump the breaks. Riot Jatt noted in his recent change to Scuttle that he admitted it was very restrictive to put so much emphasis on early Scuttle, effectively guranteeing some sort of confrontation which was FORCED onto players. Which meant your solo laners had to pick champs which had advantages in skirmishes early, or would have guaranteed lane push priority. Sure fighting is cool, but when every game starts out the same way, it gets very boring over time. And yeah, maybe solo lane picks opened up a bit, but you know what got hard pinched? Jungle picks. That change to Scuttle demonstrates Jatt's veteran and objective knowledge of the game, and why I am sad to see him leave the balance team. This also explains EU recent power surge. They are a region known for taking risky, bold plays on an individual basis, and whip out pocket or wildcard picks without any specific motivation to do so. Think of how China was known for years as the region that aggressively looks for team fights over and over. EU is the same thing on the scope of skirmishing and dueling. Even pro casters have stated that the meta currently favors people willing to repeatedly go for 60/40 plays, which should have been a freaking monumental red flag for the entire community, if AT THE PROFESSIONAL LEVEL the meta is to throw up risky plays over and over. 60/40 plays are by definition, not fundamentally sound. So the most efficient way to play the game is to ignore fundamentals? Wtf...This is why any sort of organized play game has to adhere to at least a core handful of fundamentals in it's perpetuity. And it's why the game and recent reworks have seemed to lack structure and long-term thought, because Riot has been intentionally been dumping anything that resembles a traditional fundamental out the window and instead offering up half-baked fan service. I'll be the first one to say that I got sick of Korea and China being the end all be all of pro play, but I was very much hoping that when they were dethroned it would be because the other regions caught up, secured their own fundamentals. Not because Riot decided to throw them a bone.
: No riot wants enchanters to be enchanters not mages winning lane though damage or poke is a mage thing not a enchanter thing a enchanter gives buffs and peel to win the lane.
I gotta agree with you here. There should be a MULTITUDE of ways to win lane phase. Aggression should not be the only option. Winning through a strong defensive support and safe ADC should be a thing too. In the past the problem with defensive options was they they were too strong. When the new runes rolled out taking all the healing and shielding options on ADC and pairing with a shielding/healing support was so good it was basically mandatory. And literally any scaling ADC with an enchanter was good. You do not have to go that far. It is possible to have some enchanter ADC combos who will "win" lane phase by just playing safe and farming for later team fights. But it should be a just a handful of combos of ADC/Enchanter that make this work. When it's literally any auto attacking ADC with any enchanter it is too strong. But there is A LOT of wiggle room in between to make this work. RIOT has also very recently publicly stated something that I think we all knew. They realized that tunnel visioning on one single style of play as the one "correct" way to play the game is wrong, even for the sake of creating more "action". Look at the changes they made to scuttle. Jatt said the announcement post that they realized the spawn timer of scuttle combine with how important it is to take at least 1 of the 2 ini terms of XP gain, was becoming very one dimensional and repetitive. When you are forcing teams to make a play around scuttle early, it heavily limits jungle picks and solo lane picks (especially mid) as you must be able to skirmish at that early timing (which is a big part of why stuff like Azir fell out of the meta so hard). On top of that, it heavily limits jungler creativity as pathing options require basically starting with a scuttle take or ending with a scuttle take. Which in turn also impacts the spontaneity of strategy, because most junglers in plat or above have some understanding of timing. So when your team can place like 1 ward at the start of the game and then your jungler can guess he's at 1 of 2 spots it's kind of lame. Would be better if it was maybe like 1 of 3 spots. TLDR Focusing on just one style of play of being aggressive and generating pressure/kills sounds fun on paper, but will get boring over time for players who will play regularly for the entire season or like myself who have been playing since season 2. For veteran players variety and intricacy is more important than action. For this reason heavily defensive enchanters need to be a thing.
: To me there are already better poke champs. Janna is trade/shield champ and this incentivises that theme in her kit. Shield ally and actively peel for them would be more to her theme than occasional strong nuke then back off. Are we Janna players or Brands?
Agreed, I like the idea of a champ designed to be the protect the hypercarry master. Versatile champs are fun and necessary to an extent, but when high versatility becomes mandatory it weakens the differences between champs and lowers the impact of champ select and meta at higher tiers of play. I personally feel like a strong mix of versatile and heavily themed champs is the best design for an RTS.
: Please don't go through with these Janna changes
I'm not saying all enchanters need to be the same. But personally I like the idea of having 1-2 supports who get like 90% of their value out of defensive utility. Yes that champ may become more boring as a main. But I'm a big believer in champion and strategy diversity, and personally I think the fact that having to have good harass or kill pressure in lane as a support is kind of dull. They already nerfed the control/push lane a la Zyra-Ashe into oblivion by making it so easy to punish. Poke as a laning style tends to go up and down in relative strength as it's hard to balance, but right now it's on a down swing. So in short the viable styles of play within lane phase is pretty boring. So while a heavily defense oriented support might seem kinda boring on paper, in terms of the game as a whole I think it's quite interesting and healthy. I think in general LOL is more well designed than DOTA2, but one thing I do like is that save abilities are nearly as common as engage abilities. Versatility and variety are king in an RTS. I know running around killing fools is fun, but there is something so satisfying about watching someone try so hard to kill your homie and then you're just like, nope. And laugh in their face. Equally enjoyable in my opinion
88GLAM (NA)
: Good Job Riot - 14-day suspension
Puh-lease. "My teammates were bad so it's really THEIR fault I was toxic." Give me a break. Take responsibility for your actions and your choices. maybe it's their fault you got angry, sure. But YOU choose what to do with that anger. And you chose to feed more of that garbage into the world, rather than be part of the solution. Zero tolerance policy for toxicity for all games for all the time please.
Cuby (NA)
: Nice Kalista Buff?
I like your idea for removing the auto delay. In my opinion I think a lot of the abilities in this game could do with shortening up the animations a bit. I don't necessarily think we need to go back to the days when ADC's could just orb walk through team fights with like 85% or higher auto attack up time. But I do think the game would be more fun/healthy if actual kiting, as in weaving autos and spells between walking a few steps over a substantial distance, was a little smoother and a little more...possible. Like I'm thinking of Ezreal and how he is a kiting god as well, but like if you want to E the windup on the animation before the blink is so long and there is a little bit of an animation at the end when he comes out of the blink too...you end up losing like half a second of time where you could be walking/autoing/casting every time you E. I also noticed this a bit with Viktor as the missile speed on his Q cast is kind of slow and the animation for it is fairly long too. I just think spellweaving between movement or orbwalking for ranged champs should be a little smoother.
: > [{quoted}](name=Whisper87,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jTFYIwAq,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-24T17:41:18.890+0000) > > I agree that the only reason he became meta was cuz he was broken, but I agree with the OP that the answer was to do some nerfs or a minor rework, not a complete redesign. > > It seems like RIOT has a hard cap on the number of scaling fighter carries that are popular/meta. Like right now you pretty much just have Jax and Irelia, and it seems like those two have definitely been the most stable over the years as well. Any time another auto attack based top lane carry starts to show it's face in the meta, RIOT either hard nerfs it or reworks it to be more of an ability based snowball champ like Camille, Renekton, Kled, etc. > > Here's my thought: The reason why the fighter class is so hard to balance, but also has such a big impact on the meta, is because it is such a small segment of the champ pool. There are lots of champs like Urgot, Garen, Darius, Renek who fit that kind of juggernaut mold, or like burst bruisers such as Xin, Camille, Kled, Riven who want to dive into the back line and burst someone down. But true FIGHTERS, ones who want to sit in a fight for extended periods of time and kick out sustained damage, are very very few in the game. Most champs people consider fighters transition into pseudo tanks later on or end up being kind of a beefy pseudo assassin. > > I think RIOT needs to be ok with having a good handful of champs in the same class as Irelia/Jax. True fighters who want to sit in extended fights and are just as comfortable going front to back as they are diving back line. Guys who don't need to duck in and out of fight or front load all their damage, but want to sit in the whole team fight and trade. So next time a champ like old Aatrox rears it's head in the meta, RIOT should not rebuild it but ask, "Ok we've got third/fourth sustained fighter to add to the mix. How can we make this work?" RIOT DID NOT REWORK AATROX SINCE HE WAS GOOD. They reworked him since most people found him boring and he was causing balance problems which we saw at the end. Like the Aatrox rework was planned ahead of him being good. Also Aatrox was never a fighter like ever no one would of called him that he was called a diver or a juggernaut. Like if anything he is more of a fighter after the rework.
> [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jTFYIwAq,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-04-24T17:58:22.687+0000) > > RIOT DID NOT REWORK AATROX SINCE HE WAS GOOD. They reworked him since most people found him boring and he was causing balance problems which we saw at the end. Like the Aatrox rework was planned ahead of him being good. > > Also Aatrox was never a fighter like ever no one would of called him that he was called a diver or a juggernaut. Like if anything he is more of a fighter after the rework. I did not say he got reworked because he was OP, I said that was why he made his way into the pro meta. I think auto attacking Aatrox was really a fighter along the lines of Jax & Irelia, tanky enough to sit in a fight, but also a strong source of sustain damage. Juggernauts are more like Darius and Garen who get beefy and but kind of fall off in damage later, and divers are more like Camille, who aren't as tanky but bring a lot of burst damage to knock down squishies and catch people out. I think Aatrox now is more of a juggernaut or diver depending on build because he has more utility and burst, but far less sustain damage. And your whole response kind of proves my point. There are very few champs in the game who fit the mold that Jax and Irelia do. Maybe Fiora kind of fits? But melee, physical damage champs who have enough defense or sustain to stick in fights from start to finish, while also consistently kicking out DPS just don't really exist in the meta outside of Jax/Irelia, and even those two never really feel blind pickable. I think we should take a couple of the other "fighters" out there and make them fit the Jax/Irelia model a bit more so that we have a good handful of TRUE FIGHTERS. And maybe even make 1-2 of them well rounded enough to be blind pickable.
: All the reworks would be far less of a big deal, if there was a healthier meta that included not all champs, but all types of champs. The main thing that has kept me playing, other than I liking the game, is there is no other real option in this space.
Totally agree. It's impossible to balance the game perfectly for all champs. But as you said, all "types" of champs and strats should have a reasonable window for success. If you look at DOTA2, even when the meta in general favors more aggressive early-mid game fighting, there are still certain champs, combos of champs, and item builds that can make greedier scaling comps and split push comps see a reasonable rate of success within that setting. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Valve does a metric TON of hotfixes and minor adjustments to champs and items. While their changes to the map, champ reworks, and pacing elements of the game are generally few and far between. It's nearly the polar opposite of RIot's dev philosophy. I'm not saying DOTA is better, I still prefer LOL. I'm just saying RIOT has put themselves in a situation where the meta goes in circles like a dog chasing it's tail. Any time one style becomes strong it becomes the hands down far and away strongest style, so when you have to buff or nerf so heavily to compensate, all you're doing is making the new OP strat. If RIOT was ok with smaller incremental changes over time, they would have a far more stable game, and absolutely more balance in terms of overall styles/strats. The most recent example would be how strong the scaling enchanter-crit adc- tank meta was last season. And rather than making some adjustments over time...Riot completely gutted crit ADCs, nerfed ardent, buffed fighter runes, and nerfed tank runes. I mean the level of overcompensation is nuts. It's like someone asking you to hang a picture for them, and you bring a sledge hammer to drive the nail into drywall. And now it's become a part of the LOL culture and what casual players expect. Assassin players be like, "Hey, tanks and mages got to be OP for all of second split last season. Now it's OUR turn to be OP for an entire split." A bunch of different player types just crying and trying to make enough noise so that their style of play/champ will be the next one to have their moment to shine. Always knowing it will be a temporary reprieve before the next flavor of the split strat comes along. Compare this again to DOTA where certain strats such as Drow-Dragonknight siege have been viable for literally 4-5 seasons if not longer. Sometimes it is a little too strong, sometimes it is pushed out of the upper tiers by shiny new strats, but it is always strong enough to be considered reasonably reliable and not overly risky.
: Yep so fun that he was one of the least played champions in the game. Ps new aatrox still has a high playrate. Also he was not balanced at fucking all he was shit for the majority of his time then at the end he got a lot of changes that made him the best champion in the game since he could easily abuse rageblade. Like he was played in pro play since he was broken as fuck.
> [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jTFYIwAq,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-24T14:49:52.454+0000) > > Yep so fun that he was one of the least played champions in the game. Ps new aatrox still has a high playrate. > > Also he was not balanced at fucking all he was shit for the majority of his time then at the end he got a lot of changes that made him the best champion in the game since he could easily abuse rageblade. Like he was played in pro play since he was broken as fuck. I agree that the only reason he became meta was cuz he was broken, but I agree with the OP that the answer was to do some nerfs or a minor rework, not a complete redesign. It seems like RIOT has a hard cap on the number of scaling fighter carries that are popular/meta. Like right now you pretty much just have Jax and Irelia, and it seems like those two have definitely been the most stable over the years as well. Any time another auto attack based top lane carry starts to show it's face in the meta, RIOT either hard nerfs it or reworks it to be more of an ability based snowball champ like Camille, Renekton, Kled, etc. Here's my thought: The reason why the fighter class is so hard to balance, but also has such a big impact on the meta, is because it is such a small segment of the champ pool. There are lots of champs like Urgot, Garen, Darius, Renek who fit that kind of juggernaut mold, or like burst bruisers such as Xin, Camille, Kled, Riven who want to dive into the back line and burst someone down. But true FIGHTERS, ones who want to sit in a fight for extended periods of time and kick out sustained damage, are very very few in the game. Most champs people consider fighters transition into pseudo tanks later on or end up being kind of a beefy pseudo assassin. I think RIOT needs to be ok with having a good handful of champs in the same class as Irelia/Jax. True fighters who want to sit in extended fights and are just as comfortable going front to back as they are diving back line. Guys who don't need to duck in and out of fight or front load all their damage, but want to sit in the whole team fight and trade. So next time a champ like old Aatrox rears it's head in the meta, RIOT should not rebuild it but ask, "Ok we've got third/fourth sustained fighter to add to the mix. How can we make this work?"
: Mages currently rely too much on rushing flat pen and spiking before they become completely irrelevant late game when everybody on the enemy team has built an MR item. (unless you're a bruiser mage like vlad/ryze) Not only to they need rework mage items but also rescale how MR works in general because MR is still invalidating magic damage super hard late game compared to armor.
Mages currently rush flat pen because the meta is heavily reliant on spiking in the mid game. It's not necessarily that they are afraid of not scaling. Standard control mages like Ori, Anivia, Viktor, Azir can still kick out insane dps if you let them get to like 4 items. The issue is more that they are afraid they won't have a chance to scale. In order to scale a mage wants a lost chapter item, void staff, Rabaddons, and then one AP utility item like Morello/Zhonya/Banshee/etc. There just isn't a lot of incentive to picking these champs if several others are stronger early on. One of the reasons why mages used to be stronger in general was the void staff nerf. A couple seasons ago mages could legit go void staff second item because it was a very linear, smooth power curve going from mid to late game. Once you make it more about the pen and less about the AP, you don't really want it mid game, but then by the time you do want it you feel like you're behind the power curve. The other reason why folks are rushing flat pen over scaling AP items is that tanks have not been super meta/popular recently. So these flat pen items are pretty strong at murdering squishies and will help mitigate the slower power curve that mages have. So in my mind the irrelevance of most mages has more to do with game design. Team fighting needs to be important in order for mages to be high value. In a game where skirmishing and side lane pressure are king, and where most of the time one team has a significant lead by the time team fight phase rolls around...mages are always gonna be a niche pick in that environment.
: It seems now that for new and casual players, they either kick butt in lane or quit. For me, at least atm, I have gotten to the point where the grind isn't worth it, for several reasons.
Yeah, the "Win or lose the game in 20 mins" model is just boring to me. Many solo Q players cash out mentally at like 25 min mark even if they are winning. To me variety is what makes the game interesting. Some games should be 20 min lane focused stomps, if that what your strat is built around. But some games should also come down to hard split pushing and trading objectives over a 35 min slugfest. Some games should be comebacks where a scaling team fight comps plays patiently and loses slowly until they take the perfect fight after all the tools are in place. Some games should be very low kill with siege comps running the enemy team around the map and poking them off of towers and drakes repeatedly. Some games should be won by aggressive skirmishing junglers, while others should be won by control style jungling. There will always be a META, and there always should be. But we've gotten to the point where the most efficient tactics are SOOOOO efficient that pretty much every other style has only a tiny sliver of viability. A lot of things have to line up in order for a full poke comp to be as effective as a standard meta comp in the current state of things. We need to welcome variety. Welcome the value of having a deep champ pool. Welcome the need to learn how to play and how to counter 4-5 strats rather than 1-2. It's part of the robust world of online pvp games that we are diluting and reducing the integrity of.
: That's really easy to say but it's who I am as a person I am direct and I don't tolerate bullshit which is omnipresent in this game. Making the rules clear for 48 million players is actually easier than changing who I am as a person
Whether it's 48 million people or 1 person, no one should have to tolerate being the victim of toxic behavior. I am very on board with direct communication. I've been playing since like season 2, and I will write stuff like "Don't go down there any more, just stay in your lane". Very direct, no fluff, just giving an instruction. And while many people will flame in response to this type of communication, it is not toxic and has no ill intention whatsoever. I don't think anyone would try to argue that that type of speech needs to be banned. But when you start throwing in the extra stuff...the insults, the backhanded comments, sarcasm, there is literally no point to it. There is nothing that can accomplish that you couldn't through straightforward communication. The only reason to do something like that would be to get some sort of sick satisfaction out of making another player angry. A degenerate type of mindset. Be a part of the solution, not the problem. Now, as someone who has been intentionally trolled many times in promo series, I can definitely agree with you that being trolled is often way more frustrating than being flamed. Having said that, flaming others does not solve anything. You cannot control other people. You can only control your behavior. Sure, you can't help how you feel. I don't want to get mad over a dumb video game, but you know what, I do. BUT...I get to choose how I handle that anger. We all have a choice. Choose to be a part of the community that want to see, don't choose to be a problem in the community that is. Sure, maybe smurfs, inters, and trolls are more common than toxic behavior (I highly doubt that is the case but I can't argue with it because I haven't done the research)...even if that is the case that doesn't actually make toxicity less of an issue. Doesn't make you less of a dick.
: Thxs for the great reply. I read every word of it, and agree wholeheartedly. One thing you mentioned is the learning curve and how it is a big deal, as Riot views it as a barrier to entry; bc it is. But without it, also means a narrower game where there are less ways to have fun while being a positive part of your team's winning effort. Which leads to less people playing.
Yup, when a game takes real effort & intellect to be good at it...your ranking and wins mean that much more. Things that are easy to come by don't mean anything. A diamond wouldn't be worth jack if they just grew in your back yard. And yeah, I think creating a more one dimensional game is far more risky from a longevity business perspective than creating a highly dynamic game with a steep learning curve. The more there is to learn, the more incentive you have to keep playing. Think of how WOW was back in it's "Golden Years". Players would spend a ton of time getting to max level, then hit end game and realize they had just scratched the surface and had so much to learn. The majority of players increase their daily/weekly time played at this point.
: I love watching competitive DOTA2, but playing it is nothing but frustration and I am pretty gd patient.
Yeah, there is a TON to learn to know all the ins and outs and interactions in that game. And it's super punishing if you don't know everything.
HeeroTX (NA)
: So... you're saying they TUNE champions to the tiny percentage that use them to their maximum efficiency (stated reasoning) but they SHOULDN'T tailor the REST of the game to the same standard? I think they should have CONSISTENCY either way. Either make it a GREAT game for the people that play it best, or make it most enjoyable for the masses, but not half one, half the other.
Exactly. What makes a champion like Zed cool is that sure, anyone can play him. But...those who put in a lot of reps and time and research will be able to make him look like a completely different champ. While on the other hand Ashe is much less mechanically intense, yet can be viable at high levels of play despite having a much lower ceiling. The OPTION is there, both OPTIONS are there. Riot has consistently been narrowing the playing field in terms of style and strategy, forcing everyone to play the same type of game. While I do think LOL is better than DOTA as a whole, the variety of strategies and amount of creativity allowed in creating win conditions is much broader in terms of viability. Also, how can we know how all of the new LOL players who have joined the game over the last three years would react to a game that is balanced between macro and micro/mechanics? They haven't experienced it. You can't really use the popularity of mobile and battle royale games as evidence because it's a completely different genre. There are plenty of games that have come out in recent years that prove that if your product is quality enough, you don't have to adhere to the "15 minute model" style of gaming in order to reach popularity.
Shazzbot69 (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Power Cosmic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YZvnNVzV,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-20T20:33:17.715+0000) > > A lot of people think micro and mechanics are synonymous. Synergies, big plays, and finding abstract win conditions based on combinations of abilities is anything but brain dead, and is actually why LoL got to where it is bc it was fun. DoTA is not fun. LoL made a MOBA the funnest game online game out, and well worth playing despite the learning curve. But now they have veered away from being a MOBA. Solo lane champs being self-sufficient and self-reliant on getting themselves carrying is not good design bc it amounts to a random action game. Oh look another idiot fanboy that feels the need to shit talk Dota for no real reason.
Both games have their pros and cons, and in my opinion are equally good, just LOL is more suited to the tastes of today's average PC gamer. LOL does a better job with pacing and is more approachable for a new player. DOTA is far better at making sure there are a ton of strategic options and are more creative with items. The learning curve is just ungodly and can be frustrating if you are not a patient player.
HeeroTX (NA)
: Many players complain about macro because they don't want to bother to learn to improve their macro. Example: Vision has been steadily nerf'd because most people never bothered to learn it/be good at it so way back when, players who were good at vision had a tremendous advantage especially at lower elos.
Amen, preach homie. The volume of time I've heard someone be like, "sigh win lane lose game every time", or like "If I have to read or listen to pro commentary to be really good at a game, I'm not interested" is honestly sickening. Like aren't the things we choose to do for fun, the things we don't have to o do to make a living, but get to pick how we spend our time...aren't they the things we should be most willing to invest time and effort into? Like I work hard and strive to have impact at work because I care about my coworkers and think what the company is doing is awesome. But I play competitive games and read guides and watch pro play because I think it's a crazy, amazing, in depth, complex, dynamic world. And I think all video game players, casual or otherwise should be able to appreciate and want to preserve that.
: Riot Doesn't Like Macro and it has Hurt the Game
Totally agree. Riot has been steadily favoring micro and mechanics more and more over the years. Even pro players across all regions have mentioned the importance of being able to play "lane kingdom" strategies. It's an culmination of things Riot has compromised on to keep the game culturally relevant. Too hard for casual players to learn how to turn a gold lead into a win? Make the game more snowbally. Game length too long? Make the lane phase more important. Takes too many reps to learn how to team fight well? Make side lane priority more impactful. Casual players don't want to sacrifice gold to play the vision and vision control game? Lower the max amount of wards and ward clearing available. All of this has boiled the game down to a far narrower view. It's all about lane pressure, the ability to skirmish, and understanding your own champ and lane on an individual basis. It takes the highest tier of player to expose the few weaknesses in this style of play, as we saw in the NA LCS finals. This is a very big pivot from years ago, when Riot devs said in a public post that LOL is not supposed to be a game where one person can hard solo carry. I think we all know that this is becoming less and less true over the past 3 years or so. The superior macro play has gotten hard nerfed. Evidence of this when C9 and CLG were at the top of the LCS, relying on Hai to shotcall and expose narrow map play openings to win games, and CLG relying on their coaching staff to set them up with a near perfect first 5 mins every game. 1 off season patch, and suddenly both of those teams plummeted to middle tier team, and had to heavily revamp lineups and playstyles to fight their way back a couple seasons later. The 15 minute model is heavily impacting the game industry right now, and I am of the belief that Riot is shooting themself in the foot by buying into it. LOL is meant to be a thoughtful, strategy based game first and foremost. When you listen to casuals who cry for more fighting, faster paced games, complain about winning lane but losing game- and then proceed to not learn how to translate a lane lead into the rest of the map, don't care to learn how to control side waves, complain when the losing team is able to trade objectives with them because they aren't decisive enough, don't want to spend money on wards or learn how to play the vision game...the game becomes super one dimensional and dare I say boring. It seems counterintuitive because there is more fighting and lots of champs are viable. But many champs are viable because they are able to exploit advantageous lane matchups, or early game combat pressure. So what's happening is that the variety of strategies and avenues to win is becoming extremely, extremely narrow. We're sacrificing options in gameplay in favor of champ diversity and more fighting. Every team is being forced to play the same game. Strat counters are less meaningful than champ counters. People have to learn fewer champs to see success. The list of skills a player needs to know to clean my solo Q is shorter. Feast or famine strats like full poke and 4 protect 1 strats are near impossible to make work. Hard split pushing strats are really only viable in the context of 1-3-1, as 4-1-0 is only possible to pull off in the most extreme cases like when Brokenblade ate Impact alive in the Jax v Yorick meme game. I understand that LOL already has a pretty high enter point in terms of learning curve, and probably the highest ceiling in esports outside of Dota2. And if that learning curve becomes frustrating to new and casual players, it's bad for business. Especially when you consider how battle Royale and 15 min model games are bodying the gaming industry right now. But the integrity and robustness of LOL and video games in general are suffering. I used to have the conversation all the time about how gaming was not a wast of time, but was actually super beneficial when compared to watching TV and some other hobbies. Strategy and critical thinking I'd say, teamwork and communication I'd say, multi tasking, theory crafting. Now it's getting harder and harder to point those things out and I'm like, well it still helps my reflexes. Esports and the gaming industry in general need a big company and a big game like Riot/LOL to make a stand and say, hey we're not going to sacrifice the quality of our game to feed the machine, we are not going to bow down to the Reddit rage posts of teenagers, to focus not on short payoffs, but long term. Cuz guess what? Those casual players are going to move on to another game anyways, and catering to them is only going to alienate your veteran students of the game . So in a couple years...BOTH camps will be leaving your game instead of just 1. Food for thought yo
: Dear gold players: how do you do less than 10k damage in a 20+ minute game?
This one is easy. The majority of us low-elo players are very self-focused. Either A, we don't understand how to win the game or actually DO anything if we aren't ahead. Or we just don't really care about the team/game and just care about our own experience and therefore focus more on our build and being able to 1v1 fools than on team. So this is why if you have a split pusher who is supposed to bully lane and hard split actually lose lane, rather then abandon that plan and just group up with the team to help facilitate and let themselves get carried, they permanently sit off in a side lane for the rest of the game farming or trying to find 1v1's they can actually win. They care more about feeling powerful than playing well and winning. If THEY are the ones carrying they just don't care. Or they don't even care about the win and want to feel strong, and they will justify it by saying "I care more about having fun than winning". I agree it's very frustrating.
Rioter Comments
GROMMI (NA)
: I personally think the game is in a great spot.
I think currently the biggest feedback isn't necessarily around the balancing of particular champs. As you stated, depending on the state of the game, there is always going to be a handful of S tier champions who rotate in/out of that spot. So the amount of raging flying around about that stuff is about the same as it always has been and always will be. But what I think is the real issue of the current landscape of the game is the overall design philosophy and how the game has become more formulaic and one dimensional. Yes it is true more champions are viable than usual, and many of them are highly flexible. But we have given up a variety of strategy and play styles in order to gain this variety of champion. Let me highlight several of the core issues: **Importance of strategy**: On a high level LOL has 3 major skill categories. **Micro** - which includes things like individual mechanics, laning prowess/matchup knowledge and ability, and small scale plays like mid roaming to river to help secure scuttle or steal a buff, or generating lane pressure. Then there is **Macro **- this includes team wide play and decision making; so things like what objectives are priority during lane phase, positioning on the map, rotations, plays that span multiple lanes like when bot gets a deep ward for top TP play then mid hard pushes so that enemy mid cannot roam to help. Then third is what I call **General Strategy**- which would account for things like champ select, item builds, and vision control. Like anything else, it's impossible to balance these aspects perfectly, but I think right now the balance between them is the most skewed it has been in a long time. I remember one season a few years ago where it just seemed like macro was the end-all-be-all of winning games, and since decision making tends to be a weak point for many players, there was a lot of backlash and I actually believe that one season is an origin point for many of the pacing and general changes to game philosophy we've seen over the past 3-4 seasons. Now days, **Micro** is exceptionally important, and the variety of champs you can play is actually a part of that. How a champ fits into the overall team comp or functions as a style counter, is not as important as being able to generate pressure in lane. If you can abuse a specific rune or a specific matchup, that champ becomes viable in that role, little else matters. Turret plating plays into this as well; who cares if it takes you 3-4 mins longer to kill Tier 1 towers than it used to if you can just pick a good matchup and farm turret plate gold before pushing it down? Just a lot of focus on generating lane pressure and making plays early. Who made the first move matters more than consistency of play over the course of a game. Just as example if one team picks Trist and Braum bot lane against a Lucian-Nami, just the ability to stay even and cs and not give up any kills (all without help of jungler) is indicative of outplay. This is something we have lost site of - going even in an unfavorable matchup is outplay. Going along with that same theme of lane pressure, how many low econ top laners are left in the meta? Sion and maybe Urgot if you're being liberal, both of whom just got nerfed because they are actually fairly dominant in lane fore being tanks. Which is why they were even meta to begin with. All the old low econ top laners who just want to neutralize lane, lose gracefully, and scale up are out of the meta. **One dimensional win conditions**: In the past a gold lead felt like it was just an advantage you could garner to get to your team's win condition. With how hard the game snowballs, baron buffs, and how bounties can actually increase snowball rather than aid in comebacks....it feels more and more like THE GOLD LEAD IS THE WIN CONDITION rather than just one of the boxes you check to get to your win condition. And our backs are up against the wall in a lot of strategic ways. For instance, if you draft specifically to generate a lot of pressure bottom lane, all it takes is a little bad RNG for the value of your strat to just go into the floor. If you get a mountain-cloud as first two drakes rather than something like ocean-infernal, I would go as far as to say that the value of the drake advantage is half of what it could have been. Meaning you have to be able to pivot to pressure mid/top, which puts more emphasis on picking a strong jungle matchup, which in turn limits the jungle pick pool. Along those same lines, when Riot increased the importance of scuttle in order to generate more conflict it also limited options. Sure the increase in early fighting is cool, but think about this; if scuttle is so important then you HAVE to pick the stronger early 1v1 jungler, or you HAVE to pick either a top or mid who will guaranteed have lane priority early on to roam and help secure one of the two first scuttles. Yeah it's an interesting aspect of the game, but it's also extremely limiting in terms of the types of junglers and laners you can choose along with pathing options. I understand that there needs to be some level of predictability to jungle patterns, otherwise it just feels like luck rather than strategy, or that vision is God, but I think there is a lot of space to meet in the middle. One of the smaller issues I think is just rune abuse. By that I'm referring to the idea that a lot of the relative power of a champion has to do with the ability to abuse certain runes than with the champion themselves or the way the fit into a team comp. for example before the conqueror nerf came in it really felt like you had to pick Sion/Urgot, or a champ who was strong with Conqueror otherwise you were gibbing yourself extremely hard. Again this points to the importance of lane priority, and the lack of ability to soft sacrifice certain lanes or rolls to delay the game or trade for gains elsewhere. TSM Sven specifically mentioned how the "lane kingdom" style of play (which in the past was almost exclusively a solo Q feature) has become more important across all regions even at the pro level. Even Korea, where in the past they have been known as the safest and most consistent laners, they are being forced into this volatile style of play and champ picks. Then when it comes to team comps, yes split push and poke styles are more viable now than they have been in a couple seasons, but their windows for success are still comparatively small when it comes to comps that want to generate skirmishes or team fights, and I think right now a team fight comp is really only viable if it has a few ways to generate skirmishes as well. Looking at poke comps, while it is stronger now than it has been in a while, "full" poke comps are still a huge gamble and I would go so far as to say really they are a no no because they are so risky. Again, I know true perfect balance of all comps and style is impossible to achieve, but when I think back to the year Samsung White won worlds, I think you literally had every type of champ in every role represented, and pretty much every style of team comp, and this at the highest level of play. Personally I would not mind trading in a little less of the explosive and wild card nature of league for some of the strategic options we had back in the day.
Xavanic (NA)
: STOP TRYING TO FORCE THE LCS
To be fair, anyone who has been playing this game for multiple years probably has so much blue essence laying around they don't even know what to do with it. Im sitting on several hundred thousand right now. I think it's a cool thing for players who like the game and are fans of the whole community not just casual players. I suspect the majority of casual players don't even care about hard farming blue essence, and to them getting whatever they are saving up for a week later is probs no skin off their back. If you really cared about hard farming it you would play more right?
: Immunity to counterplay
I kind of agree here, I really think that assassins should be pretty bad in lane. Right now they are like...average in lane. But I think they should really be forced into going all in on the assassin style of play. Essentially it should be, you have to all in for kills early or you have to roam early, are you are going to fall behind by a meaningful margin for sure. Assassins are supposed to be high risk high reward, don't seem so high risk right now.
: > [{quoted}](name=Whisper87,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=z6f1IRUu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-06T22:45:08.041+0000) > > I agree that some elements of the new skins do clash, on that we can agree. However some of the things you point out here, like the Final Fantasy esque sword are just opinion things. If you look at some of the champ models and skins that have come out recently, I think you just have to accept that the design team is currently leaning even a little more into the anime styles of design than they used to. Not necessarily a bad thing, just a matter of preference. > > I think the only errors are the areas where things don't line up with appearance and lore. Although if I'm not mistaken aren't they updating the backstory as well? Like in the past Kayle was, as you said, a righteous holy avenger and Morgana was the cruel sister. I could be wrong here, but I thought that the new Kayle was supposed to not only be good, but be more about peace/passivity/non-violence in general, that way she is more of a polar opposite of her sister. In that case the cool color scheme would actually be very fitting. The new champion reveal for Kayle just seems to suggest that she's the same ruthless wrathful holy knight. The sword, alongside the armor pieces, and just how they're put together still do not add up or look the part. Granted, it does get a little better once she reaches her transcended form, it still just doesn't make sense. And if there's anything completely off of Nu Kayle is the fact that they went the opposite direction of her previous lore with the whole transcending thing. The idea of justice is that it is impartial, unyielding, cold, and impersonal. Old Kayle basically wanted to transcend being a person and hid her face so that she could deliver that sort of impersonal justice. Nu Kayle's transcending does the opposite, in that it kinda strips her of her armor to reveal her face and thematically it just goes against that ideal.
> [{quoted}](name=Mandarill,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=z6f1IRUu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-06T22:59:28.791+0000) > > The new champion reveal for Kayle just seems to suggest that she's the same ruthless wrathful holy knight. The sword, alongside the armor pieces, and just how they're put together still do not add up or look the part. Granted, it does get a little better once she reaches her transcended form, it still just doesn't make sense. > > And if there's anything completely off of Nu Kayle is the fact that they went the opposite direction of her previous lore with the whole transcending thing. The idea of justice is that it is impartial, unyielding, cold, and impersonal. Old Kayle basically wanted to transcend being a person and hid her face so that she could deliver that sort of impersonal justice. Nu Kayle's transcending does the opposite, in that it kinda strips her of her armor to reveal her face and thematically it just goes against that ideal. But they updated her lore accordingly right? I mean a lot of the reworked champs have had their lore updated as well. Not saying you're wrong to prefer OG Kayle, my point is that this is essentially a matter of opinion. The only areas where you could say mistake were made is when the aesthetic and the lore do not line up. If she really is supposed to be cold and calculated, then the migration to cool colors rather than fiery warm tones and wrathful voice lines actually makes sense.
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Whisper87,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oFmfnef1,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-06T22:26:49.705+0000) > > The reason Jax is not viewed as a problem compared to things like Irelia and Aatrox is that he has much, much lower pressure in lane than either of those champs. Except for a couple key matchups like Yorick and Trynd, he doesnt' really bully anyone in lane. And then when you look at his impact on the rest of the map, he just takes longer to come online than things like Irelia or Aatrox. Both of them can CC from much farther away and have ways to get out. While in the earlier stages of the game Jax leap is usually a one way ticket in, and then he has to be in melee range to stun. It's just way more risky for him to go in, and when he does go in, his burst damage is weaker than both of those other champs until much later in the game. > > Here's what I will give you, when Jax does get a lead and start snowballing, it's a freaking avalanche. But again, outside of a couple key matchups, no one should really be getting knocked around by Jax during lane phase. And pretty much all of the other fighters and tanks have more agency than he does early on. As far as counterplay goes, I feel like it only seems that way when you're playing another melee AD champ or Tank. He can definitely be hard kited by team fight comps, I just recently played a Jax game into a Janna, Orianna, Caitlyn with tank top comp, and it was a freaking nightmare despite having smashed my lane. Same deal with poke, as his E dodges autos only and his ult is pretty short duration and therefore reserved for the all in. I mean Jax's ult scales with AD/AP, and currently he builds heavily into AD, so mages with high sustained damage like Vlad, Swain, Cass are always very strong into him. > > So when you say "no counterplay" I'm assuming what you mean is that in a context of a 1v1 he pretty much outscales everything in the game. But that automatically points out a weakness in a champ as getting a sustained split pushing going is harder now than it used to be, especially in solo Q. I actually think Jax is a really good example of what scaling looks like. In my opinion, all champs should scale proportionally. By that I mean lets say every champ has 10 power points, and during their design these 10 power points are to be distributed between the early, mid, and late game. Jax works because his early game is not very good, and his mid game is pretty bad, so his late game gets to be literally best in class. It's a fair trade off. Compare that to Irelia, who seems pretty equal to Jax very early on, but hits her "mid game" spike a bit earlier and then is just nuts from then on out. It just is not proportional at all. Where Jax power points are like 2-1-7 in terms of early-mid-late power, Irelia is like 2-6-5, making her overall just way more valuable and less risky. I'd say Yasuo has the same issue, where his supposed mid game power dip is not nearly big enough of a trough to justify how easily he can push people in early on without taking too much harass and how well he scales. When I say no counterplay I mean you can't avoid any of his abilities. If Jax times leap+counter strikes properly you can't avoid the stun. Like I said almost every other top laner has at least one ability that can be dodged. Jax should have some counterplay in his kit as well.
When Jax pops his E he has to let his staff spin for at least a short time, he cant just press E twice to get an instant stun, there is always at least a little delay. So that means one of two things: A. He starts spinning his staff in advance, in which case you can get out of range of his leap before he does it. B. He leaps to you and then starts spinning his staff, in which case you have about a second to get out of stun range, which is not much larger than melee auto attack range. Additionally his E only blocks auto attacks, so that means you can also cc him at any point. I play Nasus into Jax a lot and essentially when i see him pop E, the response is to instantly wither him and then just walk out of his leap range until his staff stops spinning. Or if he leaps first you just wither him while his staff is spinning and walk out of stun range. Seems like a lot of counterplay to me.
: Bring Back Old Phantom Dancer
One thing I think is good about the new PD is that you get a pseudo defensive item with little damage trade off. Like sure building steraks gage is nice for the defense, but in terms of a Crit scaling adc the PD is going to give you way more damage. So let's say it's getting into late game and I'm looking for some defensive options, but I already picked up my GA, so picking up something like hexdrinker or scimitar is just going to gut my dps. I could pick up a PD as my second zeal item. This is especially useful on low mobility auto attackers like Ashe and Sivir. I'll admit it's pretty niche, but the option is kind of nice when in solo Q you feel like you have to hard carry so therefore need the most damaging "defensive" item possible. There are alot of games where I even pass up GA for a BT late game simply because I feel like I won't be able to hard carry if I sack damage in any way. I think where we are at now is just a poor design in game style honestly. The game was better when carries could afford to pick up that one truly defensive item liek the original GA or original Banshees and just go 5 damage items. It required us to be more thoughtful with our item selections and have to a real decision around whether or not to go defensive. Now days you pretty much are guaranteed to go for a GA or M-Scimitar as your 5th or 6th item, but only one of those two cuz you won't do enough damage anymore if you do both. The only outlier to this is if you are completely snowballing super hard and can just go full damage. The game was better when you had a real decision late game, do I go defense item? Or Lifesteal item, or second zeal item? or pen item? Now you don't even need a LW item in most games so your build is just cookie cutter all the time.
: Nu Kayle is just thematically off-putting.
I agree that some elements of the new skins do clash, on that we can agree. However some of the things you point out here, like the Final Fantasy esque sword are just opinion things. If you look at some of the champ models and skins that have come out recently, I think you just have to accept that the design team is currently leaning even a little more into the anime styles of design than they used to. Not necessarily a bad thing, just a matter of preference. I think the only errors are the areas where things don't line up with appearance and lore. Although if I'm not mistaken aren't they updating the backstory as well? Like in the past Kayle was, as you said, a righteous holy avenger and Morgana was the cruel sister. I could be wrong here, but I thought that the new Kayle was supposed to not only be good, but be more about peace/passivity/non-violence in general, that way she is more of a polar opposite of her sister. In that case the cool color scheme would actually be very fitting.
Cloud273 (NA)
: Riot's balance team is full of biased Jax mains
The reason Jax is not viewed as a problem compared to things like Irelia and Aatrox is that he has much, much lower pressure in lane than either of those champs. Except for a couple key matchups like Yorick and Trynd, he doesnt' really bully anyone in lane. And then when you look at his impact on the rest of the map, he just takes longer to come online than things like Irelia or Aatrox. Both of them can CC from much farther away and have ways to get out. While in the earlier stages of the game Jax leap is usually a one way ticket in, and then he has to be in melee range to stun. It's just way more risky for him to go in, and when he does go in, his burst damage is weaker than both of those other champs until much later in the game. Here's what I will give you, when Jax does get a lead and start snowballing, it's a freaking avalanche. But again, outside of a couple key matchups, no one should really be getting knocked around by Jax during lane phase. And pretty much all of the other fighters and tanks have more agency than he does early on. As far as counterplay goes, I feel like it only seems that way when you're playing another melee AD champ or Tank. He can definitely be hard kited by team fight comps, I just recently played a Jax game into a Janna, Orianna, Caitlyn with tank top comp, and it was a freaking nightmare despite having smashed my lane. Same deal with poke, as his E dodges autos only and his ult is pretty short duration and therefore reserved for the all in. I mean Jax's ult scales with AD/AP, and currently he builds heavily into AD, so mages with high sustained damage like Vlad, Swain, Cass are always very strong into him. So when you say "no counterplay" I'm assuming what you mean is that in a context of a 1v1 he pretty much outscales everything in the game. But that automatically points out a weakness in a champ as getting a sustained split pushing going is harder now than it used to be, especially in solo Q. I actually think Jax is a really good example of what scaling looks like. In my opinion, all champs should scale proportionally. By that I mean lets say every champ has 10 power points, and during their design these 10 power points are to be distributed between the early, mid, and late game. Jax works because his early game is not very good, and his mid game is pretty bad, so his late game gets to be literally best in class. It's a fair trade off. Compare that to Irelia, who seems pretty equal to Jax very early on, but hits her "mid game" spike a bit earlier and then is just nuts from then on out. It just is not proportional at all. Where Jax power points are like 2-1-7 in terms of early-mid-late power, Irelia is like 2-6-5, making her overall just way more valuable and less risky. I'd say Yasuo has the same issue, where his supposed mid game power dip is not nearly big enough of a trough to justify how easily he can push people in early on without taking too much harass and how well he scales.
: Totally agree, cannot count the number of times I wanted to buy banshee as ADC so I don't get 1 shot by a rogue spell.
Totally agree, but in order to accomplish this RIOT will need to roll back their insane focus on damage output. Marksmen have pretty much entirely forgone a defense item at this point, except for a Scimitar or a GA. And you can only have one of those or you won't do enough damage. It's a very similar thing to what happened with enchanters. Rather than buffing their utility so that they stood a chance in lane against damage heavy mages or engage tank supports, they gave things like lulu and janna higher damage output. I like this game a lot and have been playing since before TPA won worlds, but it's a little sickening how this game is so focused on damage, especially burst damage. Compare the game now to how it was when Samsung White won worlds, and the game just feels soooooo one dimensional and formulaic.
Rock MD (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Whisper87,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hg3LEVsc,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-12-20T18:50:35.426+0000) > > I think the level of advantage you get out of early leads is a little over the top right now. Sure maybe towers are harder to kill early, but now you get $ for killing plating so an individual person can get fed and snowball. > > I've been playing since season 2 and I can say with 100% objectivity that in all the games I play myself, and all the games I watch on stream, I've never seen the game more one dimensional. At high levels of play, while it is still much more robust than low levels, is extremely focused on winning lane phase. People's champion choice is decided by lane matchup 95% of the time. The days where you could just pick a champ into a not so great matchup and just soft sacrifice the lane in favor of picking a champ who really synergies well with your team, or is a team counter rather than lane counter, is over. > > Even if you watched/listened to pro play last season, the way the casters talk about closing out games has changed. It used to be "Well it looks like team X has accrued a 2k gold lead at 20 minutes, let's see how team Y plays around that gold deficit. They've got a couple options..." and so on. NOW it's more like "Well team X has accrued a 2k gold lead at 20 minutes, team Y is going to have to make a big miracle play here or it's pretty much looking like this one is over". > > Think about when TSM and Cloud 9 were head and shoulders above the rest of NA teams. Against lower tier teams they would lean on the strength of their players and win lane phase, but when they played each other or a couple other higher tier teams, they would VERY often soft sacrifice a lane or player, but put together these really good team comps. And then even if they got behind early they were allowed to play around/through the disadvantage with superior team fighting, rotations, and/or team comp. > > GOLD AND XP LEADS ARE MEANT TO BE SOMETHING TO GET YOU TO A WIN CONDITION, NOT THE WIN CONDITION ITSELF! It's just horrendous how easy it is to get to the point where a few players are so strong that team comps and champ synergy doesn't matter. And no one cares if solo q heroes complain about how frustrating it is to stomp during lane phase, but then lose because you can't team fight or control waves. Don't cry about it, learn all aspects of the game or take your beating and don't complain about how you don't understand why you keep losing. Let's lay down a couple assumptions here before I go on. 1. Do you get a little much from tower plating? Sure. That 160 gold per plate is pretty hefty. It's leading to more lane dominant choices than roaming dominant choices and that's a pretty big impact on the meta. 2. Are the games over just because of that? Not at all. When pros talk about, "okay Gen G has a 2k gold lead over SKT" they're not saying the game is over. That's a good 400 gold per person, that's not going to win a game. What it is saying is that they're getting outpaced and they need to pick up the tempo or they will lose. How does this translate into NA solo queue? Same thing. Stomps are generally stomps because the player getting stomped is not playing at the same pace as the opposing team. Making the game easier to end out through aids like plating gold or rift herald simply make it easier to close out without having to make some crazy maneuver or macroplay, which is why low elo games are much more one sided. That being said, these teams could easily come back but there is very little macro involved and very little strategy besides go for these objectives, and I dislike when people invoke, "it's a strategy game why don't I feel like a strategy genius." when in reality they weren't ever being strategic from the start, just ambling around and trying to stall out.
Exactly, implementing crutches for people who don't know how to expand their early game advantage is so face roll and a bad idea for a game like LOL, which was ORIGINALLY a very robust game in terms of strategy and champion options. People stomp lane as Draven but then lose cuz all they are doing is running around chasing kills? We better just make sure the Draven gets an extra 400g or more out of lane phase. I lost track a long time ago of the number of games which are literal free wins, but my team throws because they either don't know or care how to end games. I have probably played close to 100 matches over the years where the game goes a little later, but my team manages to win a good team fight and we take 2 inhibs then take baron. At this point literally all we have to do is go stand in bottom lane, let the supers push in the other two lanes, and just let minions kill the base. Literally all we have to do is stand near the last remaining inhib turret and not die. No fighting required, just free win, be ready to flash if they try to engage on you. What do people do instead? They insist on running down mid and forcing a fight. Or running down mid and trying to force nexus tower kills rather than just go to the last remaining lane and let the overwhelming waves of creeps destroy the base for you. I understand that games are about fun, but when you throw a game just because you want the joy of ending the game with a big fight, or be the one to last hit the nexus rather than supers, you've gone way too far. That brings us also back to the point of lack of consistency and one dimensional play. If you are amazing at laning cuz you are a veteran one trick, but garbage at everything else cuz you never took the time to read patch notes or understand how other elements of the game work, you should lose a lot of games. If you are able to accrue large leads in lane but have a tendency to wander around in enemy jungle hunting for kills and then get gibbed, you should lose a lot of games. The risk/reward ratio in the game is just busted. Making slightly disadvantageous trades for the early and mid game to try and just survive until champs or comps come online has become largely a thing of the past because early game has become so formulaic and just ok kill tower, then get drake cuz you just killed, bot, then go kill herald for free cuz you are already so far ahead that fighting you is suicide.
Rock MD (NA)
: You. Weren't. Being. Strategic. Your games lasted longer because people don't know how to close out games properly.
I think the level of advantage you get out of early leads is a little over the top right now. Sure maybe towers are harder to kill early, but now you get $ for killing plating so an individual person can get fed and snowball. I've been playing since season 2 and I can say with 100% objectivity that in all the games I play myself, and all the games I watch on stream, I've never seen the game more one dimensional. At high levels of play, while it is still much more robust than low levels, is extremely focused on winning lane phase. People's champion choice is decided by lane matchup 95% of the time. The days where you could just pick a champ into a not so great matchup and just soft sacrifice the lane in favor of picking a champ who really synergies well with your team, or is a team counter rather than lane counter, is over. Even if you watched/listened to pro play last season, the way the casters talk about closing out games has changed. It used to be "Well it looks like team X has accrued a 2k gold lead at 20 minutes, let's see how team Y plays around that gold deficit. They've got a couple options..." and so on. NOW it's more like "Well team X has accrued a 2k gold lead at 20 minutes, team Y is going to have to make a big miracle play here or it's pretty much looking like this one is over". Think about when TSM and Cloud 9 were head and shoulders above the rest of NA teams. Against lower tier teams they would lean on the strength of their players and win lane phase, but when they played each other or a couple other higher tier teams, they would VERY often soft sacrifice a lane or player, but put together these really good team comps. And then even if they got behind early they were allowed to play around/through the disadvantage with superior team fighting, rotations, and/or team comp. GOLD AND XP LEADS ARE MEANT TO BE SOMETHING TO GET YOU TO A WIN CONDITION, NOT THE WIN CONDITION ITSELF! It's just horrendous how easy it is to get to the point where a few players are so strong that team comps and champ synergy doesn't matter. And no one cares if solo q heroes complain about how frustrating it is to stomp during lane phase, but then lose because you can't team fight or control waves. Don't cry about it, learn all aspects of the game or take your beating and don't complain about how you don't understand why you keep losing.
Kelg (NA)
: Yes please! I love it when {{champion:81}} Qs me for half my HP. Makes me hard. {{sticker:sg-lux}}
> [{quoted}](name=Kelg,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=mbUhnTWE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-08-06T16:27:42.376+0000) > > Yes please! I love it when {{champion:81}} Qs me for half my HP. Makes me hard. > {{sticker:sg-lux}} I'm not asking for Ezreal buff. I'm just asking for AD poke champs to be as available and viable as AP ones are. Now that AP helps shred towers, I don't see a reason why they can't both exist side by side.
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Whisper87

Level 182 (NA)
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