: We're talking about tanks in top lane and jungle. In jungle you have the options of... Nunu, Amumu, Rammus, Sej, and Zac. That's it. That's the whole jungle pool. Luckily most of these champions can boast above a 50% winrate if you put in the time. Unfortunately, Nunu takes a ton of time to learn, and Amumu and Rammus are only being played to fill the role for people who don't normally play tank in jungle. But my problem is, that this pool wasn't always this small. You had J4, Gragas, Naut, Maokai, Malphite, Mundo, even Shen and Cho to some degree. Now, those champs have transitioned into fighter roles, or Riot nerfs what makes them a good tank (J4's shield for example). The champ pool has been dropping over the years, and the amount of viable tanks is being pushed to support. I like playing jungle, and I don't want to move to support just because Riot doesn't want any tanks in the jungle. And I'm sure the same is true for top laners.
I moved to support from Top because Tanks top are abused by every Meta top laner. Only problem is even Tank Supports arent allowed to be tanky anymore, look at Braum simply cant play a front line with him.
yoyoppls (NA)
: meanwhile the only marksman junglers are still {{champion:29}} and {{champion:203}} and i almost forgot {{champion:104}}
A Tank has been a concept since Season 1, Marksman Junglers since Kindred.
: Because tanks are boring. Anyway why are you bitching now, tanks are good again.
The Maokai fallacy at work. If someone sees a Maokai in their game, "Tanks must be good again" or he gets a buff to barely make him playable. I enjoy playing tanks more than any other type of champ. Tired of this game being geared to "I'm an Assassin(or do metric Sh*t tons of damage" I'm the coolest, balance the game around me" Only Tanks with a >50% winrate are Ammumu, Voli, Rammus, Leona, Maokai (somehow = tanks are good again)
: We're talking about tanks in top lane and jungle. In jungle you have the options of... Nunu, Amumu, Rammus, Sej, and Zac. That's it. That's the whole jungle pool. Luckily most of these champions can boast above a 50% winrate if you put in the time. Unfortunately, Nunu takes a ton of time to learn, and Amumu and Rammus are only being played to fill the role for people who don't normally play tank in jungle. But my problem is, that this pool wasn't always this small. You had J4, Gragas, Naut, Maokai, Malphite, Mundo, even Shen and Cho to some degree. Now, those champs have transitioned into fighter roles, or Riot nerfs what makes them a good tank (J4's shield for example). The champ pool has been dropping over the years, and the amount of viable tanks is being pushed to support. I like playing jungle, and I don't want to move to support just because Riot doesn't want any tanks in the jungle. And I'm sure the same is true for top laners.
You nailed it. They have nerfed these champs to the point that you have to get ahead in your lane or jungle in order to simply do what your champ was designed for "Tanking." If you dont get ahead you are worthless, and its nearly impossible to "Get Ahead" of bullies with a utility kit. Champs who build deaths dance phantom dancer are tankier than these champs because they are designed to snowball lanes, tanks simply cant snowball their own gold income.
Lokidosi (NA)
: Nautilus, Thresh, Leona, and Taric all have 49-52% winrates and are tank supports. Thresh, being the least tanky of them but still itemizes resistances + aftershock making him tanky. Nautilus has a 52% winrate in almost every elorange and region, also extremely tanky. Leona around 50%, w giving a lot of resistances and runs aftershock. The reason that these champions are good aren't because they're just tanky, they are all play makers and can engage a teamfight. That's braum, ali, galio and tahm have low winrates. They're designed to peel more than initiate, causing lower winrates because it's solo q. If played appropriately and in the right places, they're extremely good. I.E All of these champions are picked a lot more in the pro-scene than solo q.
Nautilus is finding success mostly because people are cheesing AP, Thresh and Taric are not Tanks. Leona is true. Braum and Ali have been nerfed to the point that they have less HP than a Kaisa at level 10 nearly despite what they build. They have been nerfed to the point they cant be used as they were designed. Tahm is simply unplayable with recent changes. I wont deny that Peel tanks have a harder time in Solo queue but their playstyles simply arent allowed by Riot because like you say "Pros Play Shen", Normal Ppl want to play Shen too Bad.
: Patch 9.10 notes
Why are Tanks allowed to be so garbage for so long. This game feels like if you play anything other than damage you are crippling yourself. Support tanks are virtually worthless with win rates hovering around 46%, top lane tanks are impossible to even play with the champs that play up there, and outside of Nunu most people don't even think tanks can jungle. Yet we have half ass patches like this that tell me Riot is perfectly happy with these things.
Rexxiee (NA)
: Bruisers in general got gutted with the pre-season. No fervor and no anti tank runes = tanks destroy you IN and OUT of lane, its completely stupid. Good luck playing against maokai top without fervor as any bruiser atm, good luck dealing with tabi + bramble vest rush without the total % arpen mastery.
I think you are wrong on basically every point. Darius with Flash, Ghost, deadman's, and Phase rush (a tree not even meant for him) makes his one weakness nonexistent. And Darius already has 25%!!!!! armor pen with his kit. Not to mention Tanks don't have armor runes either, not that it matters vs Darius. When was the last time this preseason that you saw an ADC build any armor pen other than MAYBE 6th item, and still put a serious hurting on tanks with 300 armor. The only tank that anyone talks about is Maokai, "Well Maokai is op, must be all tanks." What makes Maokai tanky all game long and so strong is his passive, mean tanks as a class can be shit, but if Maokai has is high base damage Q and that passive, he doesn't care. Every other tank has to suffer through lane to maybe get to three items where they can be called tanky, so long as a single person on the other team doesn't beat you to that point because your team feeds.
NoPaxt (NA)
: Defensive Items
Arguably support tanks have the opposite problem. They get lots of health from support item and sightstone with less access to solid chunks of resistances. Between locket and knights vow there is few good resistance items, especial MR options. Top lane tanks got hurt worse by health nerfs to items because it is very common to reach 240 armor with only 2500 health, making Warmog's almost a must on them.
Zerpingo (NA)
: Singed is too strong.
The thing about your comment is"Singed Mains." Shouldn't the mains be allowed to play a champ to the full potential and be difficult to deal with. Your argument sits with the fact that people are good at a champ that excels at baiting people to chase him and rage at the fact you cant catch him. Riven, Yas, Darius, Jayce, Draven, you name it mains all feel oppressive when they are good enough, shouldn't Singed be allowed to have the same principle.
Scoped (NA)
: Singed seems a little bit too strong
Id say the reason his win rate is so high is yes he is pretty good right now, but Singed has possibly the most loyal and dedicated group of mains. The odds are that with a small player base but seasoned mains the rate may be a little inflated. I mained him before his rework, but just started playing him again. I didn't initially like how squishy he felt, and it took a while to change my playstyle slightly. I would argue Singed is a decently difficult champion to play on a macro level, (not mechanically).
: Sadly, lane bully champions exist and we can't do much about it. If you are playing a melee champion, you need to respect his kill potential at all times. Against Darius I tend to play passive and control the minion wave so its always near my tower. Darius is weak against ganks before level 6 so that's your main time to ask for ganks. Who do you play top? It would be easier to help if we knew the matchups you're having trouble with.
I main Shen. But also play Singed, Sion, GP and starting to pick up Yorick and Mundo. I know that my style of play is simply not good into Darius, I like tanks with good peel and utility who can frontline for squishes well.
Rioter Comments
: Ardent Censer has been this way for a LONG time, and we've had *plenty* of metas from lethality ones to tank ones. If Ardent Censer as an item was the *sole* problem, it'd have been a problem a long time ago. Hell, as it stands, it's only 5% better than it used to be before it got that scaling buff to compete with old Redemption/Locket. Are we REALLY going to blame Censer for this one?
I never said it was the sole problem, but it is the backbone of it right now. The fact that ADCs are taking relic shield to help their Janna, Raka, Lulu, Sona get to their first item Ardent highlights the backbone.
: Oh. Who would have thought! There are strong combinations of champions! What a surprise! Not like anyone above level 8 could have figured _that_ one out! ...Seriously. It's not that hard. If you know that two champions are strong together, _don't let them be together_. Or have a good synergy yourself. Lulu/Kog botlane? Bring Soraka/Cait. Or Blitz/Ashe. Or Thresh/Ashe. This is _not_ rocket science. {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}
Except it's not the synergy. The synergy has been there forever. It's ardent censor. You can't ban an item which is why if Janna Trist doesn't show up you get Kog Lulu or Sona Twitch. I'd agree if synergy was just the case.
: Imagine that, a damage focused champion deals a lot of damage when they are allowed to get their core items. It's amazing.
Except once he gets PD there are virtually no top laners, other than maybe Darius and Riven, who can fight/trade with him. He gets 60% and you have 12% reduced damage. He's an overloaded champ with a powerful ult on a 40second cd, shield, unlimited mobility, no resource, and double fervor stacks. His damage is un-proportional to other champs after 1 item and you will never stack defensive stats fast enough to survive.
Rioter Comments
: Are tanks a problem to riot?
We are the farthest thing from a tank meta right now. Tanks are utter garbage, if you think differently its because all you think of is Zac, Maokai, and Cho. Have you tried playing any other tanks, Poppy, Sion, Shen, Naut? You don't get to feel like a tank until you're 4 items in. While lethality abusers, and bruisers power-spike with a single item or a single kill. Tanks have no power-spikes anymore. By lowering the health stats on items and placing a ridiculous amount of true damage, lethality, and percent max health abilities in the game. You forfeit all your early game potential and get nothing in return because you'll never make it to four items to actually fill your role.
: Get good at Riven. Win all the time.
That's kinda what I'm saying. Darius, Garen, Riven, Jax spam all your buttons and 1 shot anything
: I still don't think it was as bad as it was like in season 6. It's close, pretty close, but I think we managed to not have a nuclear melt down, just pockets of radiation here and there.
Remind me what the aspects of the S6 melt down was? I may have blocked out those memories a little bit. I remember the Azir, tank ekko? frozen mallet yas? or am I getting mixed up with a different season?
: But I pose the question if these things are so horrible and unbalanced, why not play them?
For me personally, I don't enjoy the playstyles. I enjoy the gameplay that most people find "boring." It may also be a small degree of special snowflake syndrome, but before at least you could make those types of pick work. Now it is just asking for punishment, which is a sign of poor balance.
Rioter Comments
: Tanks like zac, gragas, and amu are good for carrying since they can do a lot of dmg, dish out cc and last for a long time by just building tank. Play tanks in top and jg if you want to carry games
Thanks for the reply. I main top lane, but do you think jungle tanks are a little stronger than top? Should I be working harder to get better at Jungle for that fact?
: your skill is what will carry you til your skill cant carry you no more you can play teemo ,urgot,aatrox or you could spam fiora, riven, yasou maokai, gragas, zac it dont matter , whatever your skilled at then play... and improve as a player and that is how you climb (fyi tanks are in a bad spot current ) best of luck
Thanks for the reply, I definitely see what your saying. It could be that I play top and my team just lose the game before I can have much of an impact. What tanks do you suppose has a higher skill ceiling, because I feel you can only be so skilled with Shen?
Rioter Comments
: At 15-20 minutes, you should at least be level 9. Still, in the amount of time, in most cases, you will have enough to buy a tiamat, if not a full Titanic.
What top laners are you going against that you think you can rush a Titanic, and not get get demolished. Titanic is an expensive item, with not the best build path for lane. Just a tiamat with most likely mess up your last hitting under tower. Titanic gives you no stats in lane to survive against champs who don't need to build damage early because of their bases/total ad scalings. You need the resistances otherwise you will be too squishy anyway.
: RIOT WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK ARE YOU DOING??? Do you not care about Shen in SoloQ at all??? If you simply nerf Shen due to his success in the LCS than you should nerf Gangplank as well due to his success by Tobias Fate. Shen: Lose lane, Lose farm, Lose Tower FB, MAYBE save adc (not anymore) GG rito time to refund should've just deleted him from the game while you're at it.
I honestly don't think anyone play tested these changes. Seems like and on paper theory type of decision making.
: Which is why you buy a Sunfire or Titanic.
Which would be totally reasonable if you could farm up to get an item as expensive as Titanic, when youre constantly pushed under tower and cant last hit. You literally have to wait for the tower to hit each minion either twice for melee or aa+1 for ranged and pray your minions don't interfere till lvl 9 where it gets a littke better. Before that point sunfire almost makes it worse by messing up tower shots. While over your tower goes down by 14 mins because every wave crashes in.
: No offense but, I somehow manage to CS without empowered AA. If I'm Bronze and can manage to last hit minions, then you sure as shit better be able to. I do in fact know what I talk about. I don't need to main Shen to understand what his abilities, do, and how they scale.
Super early game ya its not hard, but 15-20 mins in when the opponent can use two abilities to clear the wave, you cant sit there and wait for the perfect last hit with your 40 aa damage, while at the same time taking harass.
Kian987 (EUW)
: > 5.96% pickrate isn't "low" or nothing, kid. Win rate: 48.43% (41 / 57) Ban rate: 0.09% (33 / 57) This is. Kid.
Point is they Ultimately NERFED a champin with a 48% win rate simply because the LCS likes him, when utility top laners are picked, rather than carrys.
: You last hit with AA's like a normal champion? It isn't hard. I'd imagine that increased damage makes it so you have earlier duel potential. Also, the width increase is supposed to be a buff to Shen that Shen mains have been waiting for, since it makes the ability more impactful and reliable. At least, that's what I've garnered from it. With that in mind, your base stats are the same, so you can still tank, you deal more damage, so you can split-push better, and your ult is more impactful when used on low-health allies, so you can still save them.
You can't duel any of the Meta tops right now, simply can't at no point in the game. You can duel Shen's already easy matchups much better now, but didn't really need that. the Width virtually hasn't changed, enemies still have to be line up exactly the same way or you pair flash with it. Base stats were nerfed last season along with his passive because he was to tanky and you had to have a brain to push him out of lane. Compared to other tanks his base stats are garbage, heck even compared to carry tops his tank base stats are garbage. The ult is not more impactful if used on low health allies, it is equally as effect as it was. If you try to predict the enemies burst and shield early you don't get any shield; wait till 40% and they burst through it anyway. Which plays into split pushing, since you cant save anyone at 40% health late game, you have a better chance of ulting and being left in a side lane after the target dies, or use it as a glorified TP and not use the shield.
: Shen was buffed and nerfed though. Your Q deals more damage, your E covers more area, and costs less.
Reduced cost on E is worthless, if you were playing Shen right before you never ran out of energy because of E passive. If you miss taunts constantly and never Q aa then ya sure its a "Buff"
: Coming from another Shen player these changes didn't destroy him. His early dueling power is now insane with the amount of damage you get from empowered auto's, and your ult shields for more if your target is at 40% HP at the first 2 levels of your ult. Was Shen nerfed? Yes. Was he also buffed? Yes.
The problem with his 40% hp to get full use of your ult. It completely REMOVES THE ABILITY TO PREDICT BURST. It use to be a skill to ult, now it feels like wait till they are low and pray they don't burst through your shield, and the tiny remaining 40% health. If you try to predict it, your ult is a glorified TP {{summoner:12}} that if the target dies you're left hanging, because it certainly isn't shielding anything.
: 7.8 SHEN Nerf, Destroyed him
Ultimately what it feels like is they made his EASY lanes EASIER, and his HARD lanes IMPOSSIBLE. Biggest problem with that is you can count the number of easy lanes Shen has on 1 hand. Plus in solo queue how many Malphites{{champion:54}} , Sions{{champion:14}} , Mundos {{champion:36}} do you see?? because that all of em basically. With Solo Queue full of Jayce {{champion:126}} , Fiora {{champion:114}} , Darius {{champion:122}} , Jax {{champion:24}} , Teemo {{champion:17}} , Riven {{champion:92}} , Yasuo {{champion:157}} ; Shen is flat out screwed. His ability to last hit under tower was all he had to almost stay relevant enough to R. Now he cant walk up to cs, with all the previous nerfs over the past year to passive and bases, He can't farm under tower, falls behind in cs and levels before hitting 6 to the point his ult is worthless, and he becomes less than a minion.
Rioter Comments
: Well ADCs are kinda SUPPOSED to shred tanks. Its also why you focus them first in teamfights.
I agree they are supposed to Shred tanks ie over a few seconds, not pseudo-burst.
: Yeah, cause it's way better when the class that's supposed to kill tanks the quickest does negative damage until they build 3+ expensive items. Adcs already have to build 2 other items just to make IE a decent purchase. Please don't make them have to build yet another inefficient item just so they can deal with the one class that they're supposed to counter, especially if that item gives them next to nothing to deal with the other classes.
But that's kinda how they are suppose to work. Farm hard, get carried by support, get big items and itemize for the threats your dealing with. You have to make the choice of who to build against, not one item path every game.
Rioter Comments
Eedat (NA)
: Too bad thats not how it ends up working out and after 2-3 items she just anihilates anything that gets close. %Max HP true damage is such a ridiculously unhealthy mechanic
It drives me crazy, because there is no way to deal with it, no items or strat that helps to deal with it, and they dont need any items to utilize it. Just had a game with a Fiora, Velkoz, Vayne, and Chogath to much free damage.
Rioter Comments
megajip (NA)
: Freezing at start of game
Diddo, All started right after the windows update last week. Wouldn't open the client due to pvp.net error, run as admin to open, froze at the start of a match. Reverted back to an earlier version of windows to undo the update, which fixed my pvp.net problem, but I am still freezing at the beginning of a match. I have never had that problem before and have been playing for 2 and half years. Not sure what the problem is but its basically going to make me have to quit. Really wish someone would help us out here.
Porocles (NA)
: I'd like to help, but I'm a little bit confused. If you are unable to launch a game, how are you able to join and finish a match? The error you mentioned is likely due your network having trouble maintaining a connection to our servers. Where exactly are you receiving the error messages, and when? For example, when you say launching the game do you mean logging in, or loading a match? Let me know with some more details, and we can go from there!
I mean booting up the client. I get a pvp.net error that refuses to launch the client. So I run as an admin, and the client opens, allows me to jump into a game. At which point I get freezes, low frames, and sound issues. I am concerned that running as an admin may have some effect on my performance somehow.
Porocles (NA)
: I'd like to help but need some more information if you're still experiencing this. At what part is the game freezing exactly? Are you receiving any error messages, and what are you observing exactly? Some more details will give me a better idea. Let me know!
I am having a similar issue, but maybe it doesnt fall under this thread. With the newest windows update, I get an Pvp.net stopped working error that prevents me from launching the game. I run the game as an admin, it launches, but once player models log into the game, it freezes and the sound is stuck. It forces me to hard restart the computer and jump back in. Once there, I have some frame issue (drops to around 30, normally at 60) and the sound is digitized badly. Once the game ends it will freeze again as the victory/defeat screen comes up or the nexus explodes. It is unplayable like this. I wiped all trace of league from my computer and reinstalled, I re-downloaded the latest patch. I have tried basically everything listed as options @ https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752664-Troubleshooting-Connection-Issues and https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/202969434-Patching-Issues. I have been playing the game for two years and never had a problem, my comp isn't the best but is only a year old. So basically I still can't launch normally, nor play as an admin. I also tried playing other games (Heroes of the Storm) with no freezing issues
: Need Opinions: Twitch or Kog'maw? and Thresh or Braum?
Thanks, I like Braum's passive a lot but I'm starting to think Thresh's kit may be a little better overall.
Rioter Comments

WildHawk41

Level 81 (NA)
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