: I think five seasons is long enough to be in prison.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 12
I love that nidalee is finally getting a buff but if you think she finally has room to give a buff can you please make it one the will really help her out in lane? There are plenty of other small buffs you could do to her that are on the scale of 10 damage that would be HUGE for her in lane and still be tiny as a jungler.
Infernape (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=WindLord7070,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TVRuQATx,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-07-11T22:27:42.440+0000) > > This is my point though. There are other tiny changes they can make that have very very little impact on jungle nidalee BUT have HUGE impact on lane nidalee. So why not do them instead and get her back into lane as well? There are also just other small buffs they could do to nidalee in general I find it odd that they would buff something that impacts her clear speed of all things the thing she definitely does not need buffed. Because they don't want to support lane nidalee. Since her rework several seasons ago, Riot exclusively balance her around the jungle.
Her rework is not when it started. It started after and wasn't meant to remove lane nidalee in the first place go read the patch notes from back then.
Infernape (EUW)
: The buff is small because Riot know that overtuning Nidalee means she runs rampant in pro play.
This is my point though. There are other tiny changes they can make that have very very little impact on jungle nidalee BUT have HUGE impact on lane nidalee. So why not do them instead and get her back into lane as well? There are also just other small buffs they could do to nidalee in general I find it odd that they would buff something that impacts her clear speed of all things the thing she definitely does not need buffed.
Rioter Comments
Alissian (NA)
: @Riot Bringing nid back to lanes
Aesthetics should be completely irrelevant to balance changes. Bring back lane nidalee.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 14
Have you guys talked about nidalee at all recently?
PDawg991 (NA)
: Gold ELO, want to main Nidalee
Alot of people don't know how to play with a nid on their team however she is by far one of the best junglers to smurf with so if you get good with her it won't really matter until you hit the elo you should actually be at
Meddler (NA)
: Stuff leaks, it's not ideal, don't want to make a big deal of it. Most experimental items don't go anywhere and some of what was visible in that video had been discarded months ago but just not deleted from the internal build.
AH that's disappointing. Well while on the subject of items would you guys consider another health and attack speed item? And also what about more hybrid items? Something that would give Ad or Ap but pen for the opposite type of damage? I know it would be pretty limited in use but might be really cool for champions that could use it.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 7
Can you comment on the leaked items? When I saw there might possibly be a new hp/attack speed item I got really excited.
: A long time ago Nidalee was mainly played top or mid. She received some kit changes and players found she was better suited for the jungle afterwards. I don't think this was necessarily Riot's intention, but she's been best in the jungle ever since. So it was kind of the players finding she worked better there as well as Riot's changes making it so.
No. They made some changes to allow her to jungle then she became broken in the jnugle. And instead of nerfing the problem they created they nerfed her in other ways that hit lane nidalee harder than they ever hit jungle nidalee screwing over nidalee players in the process.
Reav3 (NA)
: Assassin was meant to describe her in-game role, not her lore. Very Champions in-game role doesn't always match 100% there lore occupation.
So what you are saying is just because she is from the jungle doesn't mean she is going to be forced to only jungle? Wish nidalee could get that treatment :/
: So what would be so bad with Nidalee getting a bit of AD scaling in her kit?
She doesn't need it on all her abilities maybe just on swipe to make up for all the damage she lost from the auto resets being removed. Or just add back the auto resets and nerf jungle damage a tad to keep her clear speed at the same speed it is now. Lane nidalee could really benefit from these changes but riots hate the thought of giving nidalee any buff even if it would have 0 impact on her at all.
: Please stop shipping Rengar with Nidalee.
Lol..........people love shipping characters that hate each other this is tame af compared to most
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 24
Why is nidalee so forgotten and ignored by riot? Lane nidalee players just want some small changes to help her out a bit in lane. Please at least test some of the changes players are asking for on pbe like you are with teemo/wukong/malphite. You don't need to do anything drastic that will make her super op in the jungle just give her a little love so she isn't so terrible.
: Small Diana Gameplay changes coming to PBE
Damn wish yall listened to players like this back in season 5. Maybe nidalee would still be allowed to lane
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 17
Over the past couple weeks there has been a ton of discussion about nidalee and her problems on both the boards and reddit. Would it be at all possible for you or someone on the team to come talk with the lane nidalee community and hear us out? She had one of the best reworks in the game but patch 5.2 ended up making her one of the most broken junglers and it led to the death of lane nidalee not jungle nidalee. We truly believe there is room in league for both jungle and lane nid. Please help nidalee out. Here is one of the recent posts. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/8JWPc4Zb-the-state-of-nidalee-super-minion-after-25-minutes and here is an old very detailed post about her as well that is still very relevant to her today. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5d3vhd/the_nidalee_rework_itself_was_great_all_of_her/
: Small Diana Gameplay changes coming to PBE
Man yall diana mains are atleast lucky to have a rioter who cares about helping your champion. As a lane nidalee main I am jealous.
Carralar (EUW)
: Changing NIdalee is very dangerous. At the moment, she is one of the best junglers in high elo (Korea Master+) and that's fine. I know, you want your Lane Nidalee back, it's understandbale, but she is actually in such a balanced and good state, so there is no rework needed.
There is some work needed so some of her power can be shifted around so that she can lane again.
: Small Diana Gameplay changes coming to PBE
Any chance after you are done working on diana you could work on nidalee? There are alot of ideas/suggestions on how to change her so she can lane again but no rioters have joined in on the conversation or listened to us lane nidalee players. Maybe get some changes up on the pbe so we can test things out.
Meddler (NA)
: Prototype Wukong Changes on PBE Context
Do you think when you are done with wukong you can take a look at nidalee to help get her back into lane a bit? There has been alot of discussion over the weekend with suggestions about how you could do it and what her problems are and how she got to the state she is in now
GankLord (NA)
: Riot pushing champions into other roles
It's not happening to nidalee it already happened long ago and riot doesn't care. I don't mind if they push new champions into specific roles but when a champion already has an established playerbase and they force it thats when it feels like shit. Meta shifts are different but riot doing it themselves is terrible.
NaoWhut (NA)
: So i changed my mind, Nidalee top is fine. If anything it's a strong and versatile top lane. I just played 2 games of nidalee top and i'd say she's pretty solid. If you like i could get clips of early game fights vs the trundle / akali. I was beating the akali pretty hard before i ended up hitting teleport to a minion... (I use d for flash in lane, F for flash in jungle) here is [game 1](https://i.imgur.com/2bhRHi5.png?1) and [game 2](https://i.imgur.com/usvJi6t.png?1) The AP build is definitely way better, but it's possible to go the AD build. It would just depend on your match up (though the assassin AP build is better in most every way). I could probably do the AD build better, but i've never done one of those before. Would need work Cheers, and thanks for the reply as always! {{champion:76}}
: Eh i don't feel bad when the old eve mains shared their concerns about the rework we were attacked and belittled and told we were "unskilled" and bad at the game and while i feel for you that a champion that you enjoyed was destroyed by a series of reworks and changes you simply wont get what you want because riot does not make mistakes and undoing any of their work is seen as admitting their mistake(unless its a riven rework then its ok apparently).
I'd hope they'd atleast be willing to fix the mistakes riot of old made. It's not current riots fault it only becomes their fault and their mistake as they ignore the problem and refuse to fix it.
Morbys (NA)
: Being a (REMOVED BY MODERATION) is thinking major changes to her will "fix" her. The ones you listed would completely gut her and she wouldn't be played at all. Its high risk high reward, you're useless outside the hitting of spears or traps, if you're getting hit, you deserve to die. And once people build even a little mr, shes countered. She also cannot carry worth anything late game. If you're team is trash, you aren't winning.
: Zac changes coming to PBE for 9.11
Another champion getting some reverts? That's great for all the zac players! Do you think you guys could join in on the lane nidalee discussion and look at reverting her somewhat back to 5.1? There has been alot of posts about why the changes in 5.2 really messed her up and how she was not properly balanced after.
: O sorry missed your one word about lane nid Also no one wants lane nidalee but a very small amount of nid players. It's just zoe but more cancerous. It was removed the for a reason.
We don't want Q spam nidalee we want post rework nid.
: > [{quoted}](name=WindLord7070,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=002b0000,timestamp=2019-05-13T17:47:44.232+0000) > > Removing the attack speed would hurt Ad nidalee though and it's not really a change needed to balance her out else where. I really think to get nidalee back to being viable in all 3 roles they need to just revert her back to 5.1 and then see what may need buffed if anything when it comes to jungling. I think the suggestion isn't bad, her attack speed wouldn't be removed entirely, just rapid succession autos in a short time frame. That way Nidalee isn't maxing it to abuse the heal and the attack speed in top lane. She could rank other abilities since she wouldn't get an atk speed increase every rank. She has a history of being more toxic in top lane than mid lane. I do not think we would get Nidalee reverted to 5.1. The attack speed was most important when breaking down towers in top lane, as most of your autos come out of a brush inbetween creeps and whatnot. I believe being so stuck on reverting her to 5.1 is hurting your argument to get Nidalee changed at all. You have to be able to compromise without giving absolutes or you sound stupid.
Are you suggesting something like hail of blades on the E? i think she would still max E anyway since the heal is the important part for Ad nidalee anyways. I just think reverting her to 5.1 is the easiest way to do things. Otherwise we have to come up with a nerf for jungle nidalee for every buff we make to nidalee for laning. I do think there are other ways to go about it but they would probably take more time than just getting her back in lane and then tweaking her jungle a bit. We could do a number of changes to nidalee to let her lane again whether some reverts or just buffs and then either reduce her damage to camps or just make it so hunt does different things to camps than it does to champions. Maybe have pounce not reset on jungle camps and make swipe do more damage or knock camps back something like that for example. But yea I understand what you are getting at. I will say this though if only one thing could get reverted I would love to see the cast time on spears be reverted. I was watching some old nid videos and damn just seeing that alone again just made her look so smooth.
: Wow this is blowing up, it is clear that there is something wrong with current Nidalee and it's good to see people are talking about it! I really like the suggestion of removing her attack speed from her heal and her attack fast for a set number of attacks. I also like the idea of removing cougar damage amplification if we do not nerf the really long pounce. I would like to thank everybody who has posted something constructive and not some nonsense like "change Nidalee and I will uninstall". Those sort of people need to get a grip. If you think Nidalee is fine please list out why instead of being a (REMOVED BY MODERATION) .
Removing the attack speed would hurt Ad nidalee though and it's not really a change needed to balance her out else where. I really think to get nidalee back to being viable in all 3 roles they need to just revert her back to 5.1 and then see what may need buffed if anything when it comes to jungling.
: Because she is fine. Like she is a jungle knew to have a fast clear and fast clearing isn't that important right know.
She isn't fine and hasn't been for years the conversations are about lane nidalee not jungle nidalee.
: My guess is that she too frequently takes over pro play is why she's not seeing much attention.
All the more reason to fix her and bring back the nidalee that wasn't broken and a nightmare to balance.
: Between patches 5.3 and 6.21 Nidalee was nerfed 15 times and received 1 buff. Before the 5.2 change that gave Nidalee the ability to hunt Jungle Monsters she sat at 50% winrate across 3 roles. Her play rate was lower in Jungle than lane in 5.1 (around the likes of current Fiddlesticks), but it would have picked up regardless without the Jungle change since Nidalee players were figuring out she could Jungle well. Riot bumped Nidalee from a 50% winrate to nearly 56%. Even her lane winrates slightly went up with the 5.2 change. From Patch 5.2 to 5.16, Mid lane Nidalee's winrate dropped a massive 12.17% down to 39.81% before her playrate became so low that champion.gg stopped tracking stats for it. I am not advocating for 5.1 Nidalee EXACTLY, because she had too high of a winrate for such a high skillcap champion, but I am advocating that she was a hell of a lot healthier before the 5.2 change. As of patch 6.18: AD Nidalee is completely dead. Mid lane Nidalee is completely dead. (Unless you consider a 34.81% win rate playable) Jungle Nidalee is still a 100% pick/ban and 70%+ win rate at worlds 2016 played on Patch 6.18. Even after countless nerfs! There is something broken here! You can use the way back machine on champion.gg if you want to see the data yourself. I will be making another long post in a week or so detailing out Nidalee with a lot more number data, and potential routes Riot could take to fix her. As of 9.10 you cannot find any current lane data on Nidalee because of how dead it is, but I am sure if Nidalee was in the patch notes, we would see data again. There is a large desire to have her played in lane.
When you make that next post try to do it during the week day if you can. More chances that riot will see it I think.
Rioter Comments
SheepBot (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=KazeNekochan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EXvLPOEc,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-05-13T01:40:33.986+0000) > > He actually said he would look at her awhile ago but then he became busy with other things sadly. Maybe we can get enough people to tweet at him to get his attention?
Him meddler or repertoir maybe can look at her idk how likely any are to respond on twitter anymore I know they have in the past though. Maybe meddler would respond on his next gameplay thoughts post.
Nenya (NA)
: Riot don't listen to these fools, Nidalee is perfect, change and I will uninstall. {{champion:76}}
lmao you think they care if people uninstall? If they did they never would have forced nidalee out of lane to begin with she had a MUCH larger player base as a laner than she does now.
Tanchizdu (EUW)
: I hate Nidalee. The weaker she is, the happier I am. Hope Rito will keep her as low as possible.
Ah yes very constructive feed back. Thank you for the input.
: What they may think is that if Nidalee is good in mid, then she'd be too strong in jungle.
That's why we are talking about ways to balance her. To keep her jungle power the same. Buff something that benefits lane nidalee and nerf something that hurts only jungle nidalee. No one is asking for just buffs.
: Cough Camille, Vi, Shyvana Cough(btw I know these champs aren't necessarily designed as top laners aside from Camille but they used to be played top but now they exist almost solely in the jungle where some of them are super cancer (Camille))
Yes we called what happened to them "nidalee'd or graves'd"
: Perhaps they could remove the damage amp and make it so enemies hit by her cougar spells after being marked are then slowed for a bit? Or perhaps they could add a grounding effect to her traps as a bit of utility that isn't too overbearing? Just the fact that you're willing to brainstorm over solutions shows you're someone that actually recognizes her issues and wants to fix them the right way, that's heartening for me.
The grounding thing could work since its a pretty minor form of cc that doesn't always matter. And yea I agree it's good that we can all get brainstorming and keep thinking of more things that could work to help her. I'm surprised I got down voted though tbh I guess people don't like the idea of ap nid being a skirmisher but that's fine I guess it's still AD nidalee's thing regardless.
: Honestly, from an old nidalee fan, before the rework: I don't think she's a champion for me anymore, but I don't think she's a bad champion at all. Nidalee has been one of the best champions when it comes to showing off how skilled you are. She's easily one of the scariest junglers to play against if the Nidalee is good. However, I think they seriously messed up when they completely shoved her out of mid. I miss mid nidalee with her spears. ): They honestly killed ap poke mid nidalee, and rebirthed her as an ap assassin jungler (and for a short time a tank top laner). The only thing that they left in nidalee, and actually made even bigger, was her massive player skill potential. Honestly, if you put a lot of effort into it, you'll get riven's animation cancels down in a week or honestly even less, that's all that Riven's "skill" is, animation cancels. Nidalee on the other hand, in my opinion the only true champion that takes some decent skill to play, takes months. I tried to learn nidalee and just fed my butt off. I remember Nidalee was pretty much always on the S tier list of challenger jungle meta lists because she has so much skill potential that she can always be good if you're good. In conclusion... nidalee is in a fine place in the sense that you can easily get wins on her if you're good enough. This mostly applies to solo que only though, because when it comes to the lcs, other team picks are just better. Like, it almost becomes unfair how good a nidalee can get, because other champions don't get that opportunity to be that good. They give her a lot of things in her kit to outplay you. However, I think they kinda killed the casual/ mid nidalee community. Not everyone wants to learn jungle paths, not everyone wants to have to use 100% of their brain 24/7 to counter jungle as nidalee, not everyone wants to learn how to cougar form/w/e/r/q/w/e/r/w/e/q in a perfect way to animation cancel each move and get a 10 move combo out in about 3-5 seconds. I think she's fine, she just takes wayyy too much work. Not a lot of people want to play catch the mouse 24/7 in their head, which is essentially what you do as nidalee because your strength comes in counter jungling. They need to make her more accessible to casual players while tuning down how much she has in her kit for high elo players in exchange for more team synergy (team synergy so she might get picked more in the lcs).
bruiser nid was a thing for far longer than a short time. Shes was viable like that pretty much from the start.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mid Nidalee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f7dVLNBr,comment-id=00190000,timestamp=2019-05-13T05:15:27.730+0000) > > This. Nidalee needs less guaranteed burst because once you have the hunt mark everything is a go! You fly to them with no effort and they die lol. > > Maybe we could keep it but trim the range so Nidalee can get something added elsewhere. The problem with the leap being so long is it is overly punishing for a player who gets the mark on them and it is even worse when you are Bruiser Nid because the enemy top laner basically has no choice but to go behind turret if they get a mark early game and have been autoed a couple of times. Nidalee could still gank lanes without it, but we could trim it and see what happens :). Importantly though, the mark damage should be removed to compensate other parts of Nidalee's kit so she can lane more effectively.
This isn't true at all. Bruiser nid is not a threat to almost every top laner her marking a champ is irrelevant unless they are already extremely low. Also if they reduce the range of pounce its going to needs its cd lowered back down as well.
: There should be a middle ground found where Nidalee can play in many roles. With all of her nerfs over the years you'd think there is something wrong with her current design. She went mostly unchanged before the rework and now has been nerfed more than 20 times! There is something wrong with the damage amplification on Cougar... it should be moved back to the Spear.. and maybe we nerf the really long pounce so it isn't as frustrating?
Yea that something that is wrong are the 5.2 changes lmao. Before that she could viably do all 3 roles and even support. Sure the support pick was a little troll but you could still pull it off much better than you can any lane nidalee now. They over buffed a jungler that was just being found out by the MAINS of that champion. It was clear to the players that the buff was gonna be insane but I guess riot didn't have a nidalee player on the play test team back then idk.
Crasken (NA)
: Nidalee needs her lane identity back, Nidalee is my most played champion and highest mastery points. If she could resemble any more like Old Nidalee that would be better than her diving across half the screen to 1 combo you.
I'm down for either pre rework style nidalee coming back or 5.1 nidalee. With pre rework I played Ad nid anyway and that playstyle was fun chasing people down with multiple pounces rather than just one big one. But I also enjoy ap and ad nidalee post rework pre 5.2 as well. Though I do like rework nid more I'd take either at this point. I also think even though it's highly unlikely riot ever reverts anything about it that they would revert to 5.1 over pre rework.
: The invisible spear glitch is no longer (existed seasons 1-4) and the spear is easier to dodge now. It would make sense to add some damage back to it and take away from Cougar.
Or what I'd personally like to see is have its cast time reduced. Maybe also reduce its damage though and put the damage into swipe.
: You're absolutely right. Spreading power into human form is pretty tough, considering that her other abilities are piss-poor utility. I suppose what could be done is removal of damage amplification on a marked target. Really, when you think about it, Nidalee's entire identity is based around mobility and damage, with little utility to compensate. I think with how League of Legends is nowadays, very few champions can be healthy when all their abilities are selfish in design and don't provide anything for a team outside of damage. So yeah, maybe the idea is to change one of her abilities in human form. It seems detrimental, cutting out the attack speed% + heal maybe a viable way to give her utility in other ways. Her clear could be compensated with some healing on monsters or some sort of innate sustain built in Cougar Form's passive. I think another way could be by removing damage amplification from her kit, while maybe giving her some sort cc to her q? I know it sounds crazy, but a light slow not only gives some minor utility, but also still retains some of Nidalee's ability to gank, since damage would be taken from cougar. That being said, her long range jump could be retained, since she wouldn't immediately burst the target. Although this could cause a problem similar to that of Frozen Mallet back in the day, so I'm this may not be the best way to go about it. So maybe taking away damage amplification and changing her human form e might be the way to go give her some ability to lane again. It could be a difficult undertaking to really get this to work, but I'm of the opinion that its not impossible. Maybe having human Q or Q1 slow on marked targets would be start. Giving her some way to wave clear could be a solution, but that negates a major weakness she has historically had when played in lane. It's hard to figure what kind of change to her e could be done that would not make the champion over tuned, but be beneficial overall and allow for her to lane. I can't think of anything at the moment, and of course I'm not game designer or on the balance team, but there are probably ways to solve frustration of playing against her and also simultaneously give her some tools in order to reintroduce Nidalee as an ap caster into a solo lane. (I don't think top lane Nidalee is healthy for the game when played as an ad bruiser, since, if I'm not mistaken, is/was reliant on base damages and ranged autos in order to get a lead. I don't think that's an intended way for Nidalee to be played, similar to that of Tank Ekko or AD Neeko) I'm just writing this as I think about it, so forgive me if this is a bit incoherent, but a radical change could have a consequence of a champion feeling super clunky to play and almost irritating, kind of akin to LeBlanc and Fizz during the mid-year mage updates. Either way, in order to get Nidalee right it would have to satisfy the current playerbase as well. Therefore: - Jungle Nidalee clear should not be impacted or not be impacted by much - Nidalee should still have a gap closer of sorts. As much as I dislike it, it needs to stay to some capacity, otherwise her ganking ability would be hurt immensely. Reducing the enhanced pounce range could be a way to redistribute power into other parts of her kit. Additionally, Nidalee's identity can't be as sharply focused on damage. Even assasins have some identity that goes a little bit beyond damage that is unique. I'm not saying Nidalee doesn't have unique qualities, but I think they're not utilized as fully as they could be. Although that's just my thoughts, peanut butter and what not.
Ad nidalee wasn't really unhealthy for the most of her existence though. After her rework when she was a little to strong yes that was a problem but most of the time she wasn't. Most top lane champions/bruisers could beat her there are just alot of people who had a lack of understanding match ups so they just think it was because she was op. And even then she was still an early game champion who fell off once team fights started to happen. She had clear weaknesses that people like to ignore. I agree with some things you say and others not as much. I'd like to see them give her power so she can lane and reduce her jungle power to keep it similar or rebalance how she jungles. Less power farming more fighting would fit her better imo. I also don't really think they need to remove the heal to add utility I think it can function as the utility she brings it just needs to be buffed/reverted. She doesn't need to have more utility though tbh I don't think it fits her fantasy to be a team fight champion or atleast one that is about helping her team rather than fighting herself. Also I think they shouldn't front load her damage or put it all into one spell like with old one shot Q nidalee or current nid where most of it comes in burst. Ad nids playstyle I think is a better representation of what she should be. A fighter/skirmisher who is good at staying in a fight hoping in and out. It's something nidalee does now somewhat with the more tankier ap builds and I think is probably more ideal then just jumping in and one shotting someone before getting killed.
: Gonna be honest with you: not really in any hurry to see AD Nid come back. It was one of the most frustrating things to play against and I’m quite certain there’s very little riot can do to make that playstyle less frustrating. I feel for nid players in that I think it sucks that their champion isn’t where they want her to be, but from personal experience...yeah, leave ad nid dead.
Meh she was fine for a long time. Alot of people just didn't know how to play vs her. And she had plenty of champions that could beat her if you knew what you where doing.
: Why. Old Nidalee is no better than current Nidalee for the people that have to play against her. Her kit is inherently unhealthy and none of her iterations have been able to get away from that.
: How would you spread out the power? Her other two human spells are a trap and a heal, you can't spread that power out without turning her into a support. The only way to spread that power would be to completely change two of her abilities.
trap damage/shred swipe/pounce auto resets back stuff like that. Honestly hunt would be fine if they just had the 5.1 version of nidalee back anyway.
: Rito cant do that. Rito is busy with new lux skins to come.
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WindLord7070

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