Meddler (NA)
: In a vacuum yeah, we'd expect every team to want every buff. Where we're expecting to get interesting, varying decisions is with the trade off with other things a team could be doing. An air dragon might be more appealing than farming for example for some teams/games, whereas instead of a water dragon a team might go for a tower instead. In other games water might be really appealing though, especially if they spawned early enough you might be able to adapt your build path after getting them.
> [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a9gcgfzV,comment-id=00380000,timestamp=2016-04-19T20:55:38.999+0000) > > In a vacuum yeah, we'd expect every team to want every buff. Where we're expecting to get interesting, varying decisions is with the trade off with other things a team could be doing. An air dragon might be more appealing than farming for example for some teams/games, whereas instead of a water dragon a team might go for a tower instead. In other games water might be really appealing though, especially if they spawned early enough you might be able to adapt your build path after getting them. All I think the RNG will do is produce more stale team comps, little to no lane swaps (only laning = lower pick diversity). Why would I as a coach ever draft a poke comp on the possibility I get screwed on Dragon spawns? Better to draft something safe , and it will make wacky / creative comps less common since they become more risky in an RNG environment. This also makes it so much worse if your team benefits less than other team off Dragon spawn order. Lets say the dragons are significantly better for the other team. That means for the team losing on the deal here it's lose/go even, and the other team it's go even / win. That seems like an enormous handicap on the losing team for something they can't control. I understand Variety, but the way you're introducing it here feels pretty unfair, and I can already see myself for instance playing fewer split pushers, because I don't know if Earth dragon will spawn or not as an example. Or why play Nidalee etc. if I can't be sure Water will spawn?
: Yup, I'm putting myself in a predicament. But we're at a point where if I just say "soon." folks here are, understandably, really sick and tired of it. There's possibilities things may get moved, I'm not in control of that. But I want to say something of consequence and commit to the work we've been doing. I'll risk taking the kicking for it if people get some measure of what we're striving for.
> [{quoted}](name=Jaredan,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=khkWEbWQ,comment-id=005b00000000,timestamp=2015-06-21T06:20:53.125+0000) > > Yup, I'm putting myself in a predicament. But we're at a point where if I just say "soon." folks here are, understandable, really sick and tired of it. There's possibilities things may get moved, I'm not in control of that. But I want to say something of consequence and commit to the work we've been doing. > > I'll risk taking the kicking for it if people get some measure of what we're striving for. I'll believe it when I see it. From what i can tell at this point Riot is full of incompetent people unable to do things in an efficient amount of time. For the amount of money and people Riot has, the output is just not acceptable on Lore, New Features. "Soon" has gotten really really old when we watch things like DoTA Reborn, as Riot sits on its hands getting nothing accomplished. It's not just Lore, your entire company from the top down just seems like their still an amateur studio with very bad management.
Rioter Comments
: See, the problem is money =/= quality. There's a lot of effort, planning, and other stuff I cannot fathom that goes into everything Riot does - and in my book the biggest element is time.
> [{quoted}](name=Gems Luxel,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=i9uAoE36,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-04-07T21:58:18.086+0000) > > See, the problem is money =/= quality. There's a lot of effort, planning, and other stuff I cannot fathom that goes into everything Riot does - and in my book the biggest element is time. Yes, and everything they do takes WAY too much time because they are badly managed. None of their leaders know how to set timelines, or get people to do things in timely manner. Thus every feature, and all the stuff people have wanted for years is still not close to release. If it's not Skins or Money related, it comes VERY slowly.
: Screaming at Riot Doesn't Help Them Improve.
As soon as they can start releasing, anything, on a decent timeline sure. If replays, client, lore, etc. were not coming SO slowly I could believe this post. From all appearances Riot is a group of talented people that is being completely mismanaged and as soon as League is no longer popular they are pretty screwed. Why does it take SO long to get any features or additions to the game? They only have 1 game, tons of employees and money, but all content and features comes super slow. This tells me they have very poor leadership. "They have a lot of shit to do" Yeah, and none of it is getting done in a reasonable timeframe. Nobody in charge to make deadlines and direct groups. Just a bunch of pure chaos and people running around doing whatever they want.
: Think, for a moment, if Riot did make URF permanent, but didn't continue to balance it as you are suggesting. It eventually would get to the point where every game would only consist of the OP champs (those that made it through bans anyway). Then the outcry would change from "RIOT BRING URF BACK PLZ" to "RIOT, NERF _______ IN URF PLZ." When Riot doesn't nerf or fix those OP champs, URF turns into something unbearable. That is their reasoning. They know that it would eventually get to that point. It isn't that they aren't listening to their customers, it's that they have an eye for the bigger picture, where their customers only consider the amount of fun they had when URF was around. It's the same as when a child begs her mom for candy. Her mother knows that the candy may taste good now, but if you eat too much of it, you'll get sick. Naturally, the mother is going to say "no" because she knows better than the child. Riot knows how game development goes, and is able to analyze trends within their data. So instead of thinking "Riot, you don't listen to what I ask," think "Riot, I'm sure you have done extensive research and truly understand what makes a great game great." I'm not saying that we as a customer base should stop giving Riot suggestions. I am saying, however, that Riot has proven that they know what they are doing when it comes to game development, and they know better than we do what we want.
> [{quoted}](name=dj13ubbles,realm=NA,application-id=LFfTlAky,discussion-id=h1wWRH1v,comment-id=000b000000030000,timestamp=2015-04-06T20:54:08.512+0000) > > Think, for a moment, if Riot did make URF permanent, but didn't continue to balance it as you are suggesting. It eventually would get to the point where every game would only consist of the OP champs (those that made it through bans anyway). Then the outcry would change from "RIOT BRING URF BACK PLZ" to "RIOT, NERF _______ IN URF PLZ." When Riot doesn't nerf or fix those OP champs, URF turns into something unbearable. > > That is their reasoning. They know that it would eventually get to that point. It isn't that they aren't listening to their customers, it's that they have an eye for the bigger picture, where their customers only consider the amount of fun they had when URF was around. It's the same as when a child begs her mom for candy. Her mother knows that the candy may taste good now, but if you eat too much of it, you'll get sick. Naturally, the mother is going to say "no" because she knows better than the child. Riot knows how game development goes, and is able to analyze trends within their data. So instead of thinking "Riot, you don't listen to what I ask," think "Riot, I'm sure you have done extensive research and truly understand what makes a great game great." > > I'm not saying that we as a customer base should stop giving Riot suggestions. I am saying, however, that Riot has proven that they know what they are doing when it comes to game development, and they know better than we do what we want. I DON'T think they know what they are doing in terms of game development. I think they have a bunch of talented people, and completely inept and incompetent leaders. Why? Lore, Replays, Client, Features, the list of things they are slow to release, or totally behind the curve on is pretty long. Everything they do comes at a snails pace. Their management and timelines on projects is a complete joke. Their core game is GREAT, but their development of features around that game is just sort of crap.
L4T3NCY (NA)
: URF (like other FGMs) is not designed as a long-term engagement mode. It has play balance and pacing issues, which become clearer with increased engagement (as I'm sure you guys notice the more you play). We wouldn't be able to maintain the required ongoing balance of it as a new permanent mode, as we're focused primarily on normal SR. This means play balance would eventually collapse and the game would stop being fun, making for a pretty terrible experience. :( If you're interested, I go into a bit of depth here about the pros/cons of FGMs being temporary VS permanent. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/featured-game-modes-2014
> [{quoted}](name=L4T3NCY,realm=NA,application-id=LFfTlAky,discussion-id=h1wWRH1v,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2015-04-06T18:04:40.133+0000) > > URF (like other FGMs) is not designed as a long-term engagement mode. It has play balance and pacing issues, which become clearer with increased engagement (as I'm sure you guys notice the more you play). We wouldn't be able to maintain the required ongoing balance of it as a new permanent mode, as we're focused primarily on normal SR. This means play balance would eventually collapse and the game would stop being fun, making for a pretty terrible experience. :( > > If you're interested, I go into a bit of depth here about the pros/cons of FGMs being temporary VS permanent. > http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/featured-game-modes-2014 You're wrong, and this decision sucks. I don't want to play URF 24/7, I DO want the option to play a game or 2 to unwind from stressful Ranked games at any point in the year. Sometimes you get that 4v5 with someone afk on your team, and URF would be the perfect place to destress from it. Why would it require balancing.... at all? Just leave it like ARAM as a non-competitive mode. How is this a problem? I'm sorry but the argument on this is just no good. From a business perspective it's GREAT for Riot because champions you don't get to see much are playable in URF (Poppy, etc.) It won't matter. Riot doesn't listen to customers, and you're just going to do your own damn thing no matter what.
: > I'm sorry you and the other reds feel like you're getting attacked and that we hate you. There are those who are very bitter, myself included, but it's mostly because of a lack of information on any progress and the other recent issues (legal reasons and all...) At the risk of falling into the trap of saying the same thing every other Rioter says... I know that the anger and attacks are born of passion. The fact that you are taking the time to post, and putting in this amount of effort (no matter how it manifests) means that you care. You, and everybody else who posts on this cares deeply - so, so deeply - about this world we've created. That's **insanely humbling**, and it's something I continue to remind myself whenever I feel attacked. It's why I keep coming back. > We've been given nothing but the same lies and bullshit from Runaan, Opeli, and Kitae after the Freljord disaster that we've been getting from TommyGnox, Jaredan and Loping Cinder. It's old, it's frustrating and we deserve better treatment and results after waiting this long. > Even when Rioters tell us "we want to make Lore a priority," they NEVER actually do that, which just creates another lie that they've constantly told us. > So, when someone like Bio comes in and says "you should feel angry and you deserve to be angry because we've failed you for way too long." we gravitate to it. Hell, when Morello admits that, at a PAX panel streamed on Twitch, that lore fans deserve to feel bad about the failures from Riot over Lore, it's disappointing but refreshing because it justifies what we've been feeling for years now. I'll double-down on what Bioluminescence said - you deserve to feel angry. We've promised things, and then not delivered. It is not unreasonable for you to sit there and say "hey, what the hell Riot?" The thing is, there is a whole reality of development that you don't see. There is SO much work going on behind the scenes. Not just in narrative, but across the board. We experiment on things, test them out, and then throw it away if it doesn't work. If it does work, we keep testing, iterating, refining. We also rely on other teams to help get things out to players - so we need to share that context. Even when things go smoothly, it takes time to get everybody on board. It's even harder to share that outward, because we run the very real risk of promising something, and then not delivering. Which then causes you to sit there and say (again) "hey, what the hell Riot?" It's a really hard thing. We could just not talk about anything until it's set and ready for release; but that feels unsatisfying. And odds are, we'd just be accused of not caring. But If we speak on things too early, we'll likely end up shifting directions (if only subtly) before release. I know that every single person you called out was speaking the truth at the time they posted. But the truth can, and will, shift over time - and then we're branded as liars. > Unfortunately, it's a monster that the entire company created after four years of the same lies and broken promises and it doesn't look like it's getting better. I honestly don't know how to solve this, other than finally delivering on what we've promised. But that's just repeating something you already know, and I totally get that it's unsatisfying. Closing with that only adds more frustration. So instead, I'll close with some of my personal feelings. This isn't me speaking as a Rioter, but as a fellow passionate player. These also aren't directed at you, TerraRising, but just my thoughts in general: * Personally, I think the claim that there's been no lore development is a little unfair. [This thread from a while back](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/AGEM160T-what-we-learned-in-2014-a-k-a-tldr-lore) recapped everything that happened last year (including the retcon), and tried to extrapolate what it meant, and what we learned. I don't know how accurate the conclusions are, and I'm sure a lot of what's there is up for debate. But I also think it pretty solidly illustrates that there was a LOT of stuff released last year. * I think there's room to channel the frustrations more productively. Jumping at people with these frustrations, while understandable, is a total turnoff. It feels as though some people are so determined to be mad that they'll twist anything that is said to justify being mad. I've literally been working on this post for 2 hours trying to make sure I don't say anything that's just going to get taken out of context and make matters worse. I truly feel that my intentions - and those of my fellow Rioters - are coming from the right place. So if something in here comes off sounding bad, it's most likely me doing a bad job of expressing myself. * I would love to find more threads talking about broad topics. It's easier for me to engage when we aren't getting bogged down into very specific executions. What themes do you enjoy seeing? Are there certain parts of the world you want to see developed? Heck, do you even care about world-building? Or are champ stories the only thing that matters? Did you prefer any particular story style? Let's talk about those things. * And lastly, as much as we all love League - we're also all people. Let's engage on those levels too! What stories had the biggest impact on you? What are your goals in life? What are your favorite games of all time, and why? There are so many ways we can engage as people and as players here on the boards, and I think that will go a long way to establishing a baseline connection which we can leverage to have these harder conversations in a healthy and productive way. --- That was a giant wall of text, but I hope it was helpful in some way. I don't think there's much more I can add on this topic, so I'm going to hop out of this topic. Also, I spent so long on this that I forgot to eat dinner, so I need to find some food... But hey, if anybody takes anything positive away from this post, then it was totally worth. =) It's always a pleasure chatting with you all. You can be sure that I'll keep looking out for more places to jump in and talk.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=4TK7oKqj,comment-id=000400010000000000010002000000020000,timestamp=2015-03-19T06:31:59.966+0000) > > At the risk of falling into the trap of saying the same thing every other Rioter says... I know that the anger and attacks are born of passion. The fact that you are taking the time to post, and putting in this amount of effort (no matter how it manifests) means that you care. You, and everybody else who posts on this cares deeply - so, so deeply - about this world we've created. That's **insanely humbling**, and it's something I continue to remind myself whenever I feel attacked. It's why I keep coming back. > > I'll double-down on what Bioluminescence said - you deserve to feel angry. We've promised things, and then not delivered. It is not unreasonable for you to sit there and say "hey, what the hell Riot?" > > The thing is, there is a whole reality of development that you don't see. There is SO much work going on behind the scenes. Not just in narrative, but across the board. We experiment on things, test them out, and then throw it away if it doesn't work. If it does work, we keep testing, iterating, refining. > > We also rely on other teams to help get things out to players - so we need to share that context. Even when things go smoothly, it takes time to get everybody on board. It's even harder to share that outward, because we run the very real risk of promising something, and then not delivering. Which then causes you to sit there and say (again) "hey, what the hell Riot?" > > It's a really hard thing. We could just not talk about anything until it's set and ready for release; but that feels unsatisfying. And odds are, we'd just be accused of not caring. > > But If we speak on things too early, we'll likely end up shifting directions (if only subtly) before release. I know that every single person you called out was speaking the truth at the time they posted. But the truth can, and will, shift over time - and then we're branded as liars. > > I honestly don't know how to solve this, other than finally delivering on what we've promised. But that's just repeating something you already know, and I totally get that it's unsatisfying. Closing with that only adds more frustration. > > So instead, I'll close with some of my personal feelings. This isn't me speaking as a Rioter, but as a fellow passionate player. These also aren't directed at you, TerraRising, but just my thoughts in general: > > > * Personally, I think the claim that there's been no lore development is a little unfair. [This thread from a while back](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/AGEM160T-what-we-learned-in-2014-a-k-a-tldr-lore) recapped everything that happened last year (including the retcon), and tried to extrapolate what it meant, and what we learned. I don't know how accurate the conclusions are, and I'm sure a lot of what's there is up for debate. But I also think it pretty solidly illustrates that there was a LOT of stuff released last year. > > > * I think there's room to channel the frustrations more productively. Jumping at people with these frustrations, while understandable, is a total turnoff. It feels as though some people are so determined to be mad that they'll twist anything that is said to justify being mad. I've literally been working on this post for 2 hours trying to make sure I don't say anything that's just going to get taken out of context and make matters worse. I truly feel that my intentions - and those of my fellow Rioters - are coming from the right place. So if something in here comes off sounding bad, it's most likely me doing a bad job of expressing myself. > > > * I would love to find more threads talking about broad topics. It's easier for me to engage when we aren't getting bogged down into very specific executions. What themes do you enjoy seeing? Are there certain parts of the world you want to see developed? Heck, do you even care about world-building? Or are champ stories the only thing that matters? Did you prefer any particular story style? Let's talk about those things. > > > * And lastly, as much as we all love League - we're also all people. Let's engage on those levels too! What stories had the biggest impact on you? What are your goals in life? What are your favorite games of all time, and why? There are so many ways we can engage as people and as players here on the boards, and I think that will go a long way to establishing a baseline connection which we can leverage to have these harder conversations in a healthy and productive way. > > --- > > That was a giant wall of text, but I hope it was helpful in some way. I don't think there's much more I can add on this topic, so I'm going to hop out of this topic. Also, I spent so long on this that I forgot to eat dinner, so I need to find some food... But hey, if anybody takes anything positive away from this post, then it was totally worth. =) > > It's always a pleasure chatting with you all. You can be sure that I'll keep looking out for more places to jump in and talk. My problem with Riot these days is not specific to Lore, but it's part of it. Why are there so many projects that seemingly are all progressing so slowly? Replays, Client, Lore, etc. When I read stuff like this : http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/20ivqv/the_hard_realities_of_working_at_riot_games/ It makes me wonder how Riot gets ANYTHING finished. Who is in charge there? Why is everything not named eSports moving at glacial pace? I think we are allowed to be upset when things are not coming at a good pace. Riot seems to have tons and tons of talent, and no management to focus it.
: Waiting to have had "all the replacement content ready.", if things had turned out the way they have, would have meant we would still not be communicating on the boards due to not being able to pre-empt the content. That was the choice.
> [{quoted}](name=Jaredan,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=4TK7oKqj,comment-id=00040008000000020000,timestamp=2015-03-19T15:14:08.716+0000) > > Waiting to have had "all the replacement content ready.", if things had turned out the way they have, would have meant we would still not be communicating on the boards due to not being able to pre-empt the content. > > That was the choice. Maybe the problem is timelines then. If it takes Riot 3+ years to develop this thing, they need different people in charge, and better management. Everything Riot does seems to come at glacial pace, this scream mismanagement.
Aklaen (NA)
: Hey MostlyAdequate, I totally understand your point of view and get that this isn't ideal for you and other League players who have already bought tickets. That's why we put together this announcement as soon as we knew our presence at PAX East would be smaller this year. Sadly, as you point out tickets already went on sale, but we wanted to at least provide this heads up so you'd know what to expect. Ultimately, this is a trade off that'll let us explore awesome new event possibilities that hopefully you can all enjoy throughout the year. While our presence at PAX East will be different and definitely smaller, we're still really excited about interacting with the community through panels, and I personally hope to see you there.
> [{quoted}](name=Aklaen,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=eW1esQvu,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2015-01-15T23:24:33.330+0000) > > Hey MostlyAdequate, > > I totally understand your point of view and get that this isn't ideal for you and other League players who have already bought tickets. That's why we put together this announcement as soon as we knew our presence at PAX East would be smaller this year. Sadly, as you point out tickets already went on sale, but we wanted to at least provide this heads up so you'd know what to expect. Ultimately, this is a trade off that'll let us explore awesome new event possibilities that hopefully you can all enjoy throughout the year. While our presence at PAX East will be different and definitely smaller, we're still really excited about interacting with the community through panels, and I personally hope to see you there. I just don't understand leaving the biggest conventions around. By doing this you're basically saying anything you guys do is now second fiddle and second best. You're not going to do better than PAX in terms of the variety of people you bring in. And we have no solid dates or information on what replaces PAX. Just a promise of other events. Unfortunately Riots word is no longer good. You have a history of taking things away without a proper plan to replace (Lore). What can you guys possibly do that would be bigger than PAX? If not bigger then what's the point in leaving at all.
Intently (NA)
: Retro 1980's arcade skin =/= DJ skin based on electronic music. They don't feel similar at all. None of the animations are similar, none of the VFX are similar, none of the sounds are similar, and the entirety of the skin's look shows ZERO connection to Arcade Sona.
> [{quoted}](name=enbr,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=uYE08BEn,comment-id=0021,timestamp=2015-02-03T21:46:57.440+0000) > > Retro 1980's arcade skin =/= DJ skin based on electronic music. They don't feel similar at all. None of the animations are similar, none of the VFX are similar, none of the sounds are similar, and the entirety of the skin's look shows ZERO connection to Arcade Sona. Here are the similarities I see : Bright Colorful Lights Nightlife Futuristic Electronic Keyboard / Electronic Based "Hipster" Feel. That's enough that it's too similar.
: > [{quoted}](name=Wolfenstyne,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=uYE08BEn,comment-id=001500000001,timestamp=2015-02-03T21:32:50.672+0000) > > But this skin just feels like an upgraded Arcade Sona, which DOES sort of feel like a kick to the gut. I feel bad for having bought Arcade Sona now. it discourages me from buying skins now that Riot has set a precedent for just releasing a better version of that skin later on. Always hold off on the lower priced skins is the lesson here. I'm not sure I see the similarity that you're suggesting. Arcade Sona, and the other arcade skins for that matter are based off of retro games, which is why everything is super pixelated and they have retro game sounds. DJ Sona is based off of music, and everything is clean and sleek looking.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=uYE08BEn,comment-id=0015000000010000,timestamp=2015-02-03T21:36:16.796+0000) > > I'm not sure I see the similarity that you're suggesting. > > Arcade Sona, and the other arcade skins for that matter are based off of retro games, which is why everything is super pixelated and they have retro game sounds. > > DJ Sona is based off of music, and everything is clean and sleek looking. here are similarities I see off the bat, just done better : Bright Colorful Lights Nightlife Futuristic Electronic Keyboard / Electronic Based "Hipster" Feel. I'm not downplaying the skin quality, I really am not. I just am saying the concept is too similar that picking Sona was the right choice for it. I absolutely feel like I bought a lesser DJ Sona when I got arcade. It does have some distinctions, you are correct, but not enough that I don't feel like Riot had better candidates for this skin. An Ultimate Skin should feel like a concept I have never seen before, and I feel like I've seen this concept before. Just done to a lower quality.
: > [{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=uYE08BEn,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2015-02-03T20:07:27.451+0000) > > I don't mean to be picky, but for those people who'd like refunds on their arcade sona skins when purchasing this skin, will that be allowed? > > Cuz no offense, but if I got this skin, I know I'm probably not the only one who'd never use arcade sona again :l If you have a refund credit, you can use one of those. Otherwise, no.
> [{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=uYE08BEn,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2015-02-03T20:13:33.561+0000) > > If you have a refund credit, you can use one of those. Otherwise, no. But this skin just feels like an upgraded Arcade Sona, which DOES sort of feel like a kick to the gut. I feel bad for having bought Arcade Sona now. it discourages me from buying skins now that Riot has set a precedent for just releasing a better version of that skin later on. Always hold off on the lower priced skins is the lesson here.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jixx,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=uYE08BEn,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-02-03T17:58:45.861+0000) > > By negative feedback I think he means when people went: Wdf sona gets the ultimate!? She already has like 50 friggin skins, wdf rito u dumb, Why is Sona getting the ultimate skin, especially DJ sona when we already have arcade sona...? We weren't super concerned, especially because a lot of a assumptions were being made off a name alone. Without a visual, it's easy to say, "Oh, that idea sucks", because there's no proof of concept, so to speak. As I mentioned in another comment, I think a lot of people took DJ and Arcade and mixed them because of the whole rave aspect (rainbows, etc). Not the most outrageous idea in the world. Sure, Sona has a few skins, but a couple of them are legacy. In addition to that, she's definitely not pushing Annie or Warwick skin numbers. :]
> [{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=uYE08BEn,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2015-02-03T18:04:19.081+0000) > > We weren't super concerned, especially because a lot of a assumptions were being made off a name alone. Without a visual, it's easy to say, "Oh, that idea sucks", because there's no proof of concept, so to speak. > > As I mentioned in another comment, I think a lot of people took DJ and Arcade and mixed them because of the whole rave aspect (rainbows, etc). Not the most outrageous idea in the world. > > Sure, Sona has a few skins, but a couple of them are legacy. In addition to that, she's definitely not pushing Annie or Warwick skin numbers. :] This skin IS very close to Arcade Sona, just executed way way better and with higher production values.... but the theme is not original. It looks like an Arcade Sona executed better with more tech and ideas, but under it all the same concept. Or too similar. It is funny that it's something a DJ would do. Take an existing idea and build something new out of it, but it's the same idea. I've seen it, it's spectacular, but I don't see enough of a thematic difference between this and Arcade Sona that picking Sona for this skin was a good idea.
: What the Harrowing Game Mode should have been...
It should have been URF. Every time a new game mode comes out that is not URF it feels like a waste of time. They caught lightning a bottle with it, and instead of bringing it back more often keep giving us crappy modes like Hexakill on TT.
: Yeah, they should had probably revived the old voice actor and made him say new lines to expand an old champion's quote roster. I bet nobody in Riot liked the idea of replacing such an epic voice over, but let's be honest, the actor is dead and eventually it was necessary to update the voiceover.
They should have kept was was there and not expanded at all. The new VO is inferior even if there is more of it. The old VO sounded better, AND the Nasus represented there had a more unique personality. Now he is just another grimdark Angry Dog. Worse from a voice and general direction point of view. Quality > Quantity.
Rioter Comments
: Sorry, let me clarify. English is what I'm referring to. (sorry to lump all that together :P) Yes, while English speakers and fans of Western media that involves Arnold is charming to us, we're sort of in the minority actually. By a wide margin the accent, the mannerisms, the reference, aren't understood by a huge chunk of the world. Again, I appreciate the charm, but 1) those fairly "cheesy" chunks of old content don't really translate, and 2) we wanted to really let the new Sion shine and not be diluted by things we wanted to evolve past. We have a lot of confidence in new Sion. This is indeed a bit of a blank slate, but we decided that after a huge discussion on the matter. The call was not made easily.
Problem is whenever Riot has a choice of honoring the past , or leaving it behind, the choice is the later. Nasus old voice was and is better than his new one. Riot is systematically killing the charm League has. It feels like you are embarrassed of who you are. I understand not everything translates to every culture , but at that sacrifice do you then just make stuff bland because not everyone will get it?
Sunfield (EUNE)
: And you have the right to feel this way
Just saying, I don't dislike it because it's new. I dislike it because it's badly done.
: Riot stated that they are separating lore from gameplay not that it doesn't apply at all. I think anyone who thinks that removing the idea of summoners ruins the lore/gameplay in failing to see the bigger picture. If you think about it that was honestly an extremely weak thread that tied the two(lore & gameplay) together in the first place. All the champ backgrounds had this awesome development and then it was like "oh, now they have joined the league..." and it ended their story without room for development. All of their backgrounds were history and I think that Riot has decided to reboot the lore so they can actually evolve these characters over time. If you watch their video "A New Dawn" I think this video clearly shows how the lore can play into the game. These characters can run into each other anywhere and have to fight it out. The claim that you don't care because Riot's lore has never lead Azir to the location you are playing him makes no sense. Could you imagine the horrible storytelling and weak threads that would have to be created to bring every character to every location? Just because the game mechanics are not a campaign doesn't mean that it doesn't work. That's like saying when Nintendo released Super Smash Brothers the lore of the Nintendo classics no longer mattered and made no one care. To provide you with a great game the mechanics must have a start and end. But to provide you, or those who want more than a game, with an excellent experience they give you characters with depth, history and relationships. By eliminating the league from the lore they have also eliminated the dead ends that all of their characters stories had reached.
Smash Brothers works because those characters have story gameplay experiences outside of the game. You can go play a Zelda game and get some gameplay story with him. League characters are, for the time being, only in this one 5v5 game most people play while in the client. Here is the question, why would I care about Azir as is? Right now it's just a spinoff Fantasy story that has nothing to do with my in game experience. Could I not just go grab a fantasy book off a shelf in a store instead? I wanted League of Legends lore, something to give context to where I spend all my time with their game. Instead have been given Runeterra lore. How can I possibly give context, or Lore meaning to where I am playing when it doesn't actually exist in the story at all.... for anyone. Riot seems embarrassed that they are writing a story for a video game and not for fantasy novels or Television. If I cannot personally play out the stories they are writing, I don't see any reason to give it anymore weight then the hundreds of fantasy stories out there on book shelves. For those of us who they told to "wait" for two years, and then they come back and give up on tying it to gameplay. It really feels like Riot gave a bunch of people the bird and walked off.
Sunfield (EUNE)
: And thats what you feel and its perfectly okay. But others like me will no longer care because hating on lore no matter what because "it does not tie into gameplay" seems stupid and stubborn to them. I like the new Sivir. And visuals where just freaking epic. And I like the fact that Nasus and Renekton where once human. But well thats just me. You will hate its because its not like the old lore. And thats okay too.
I'm fine with New Lore if it ties into gameplay, I really am. I don't mind change, as long as it gives what I think is critical to give a dam about lore in a game, which is tying into your play experience. If it doesn't I'm not sure it's any better than buying a random fantasy book off a shelf. It feels like spinoff story with nothing to do with my play experience.
: Jesus christ dude. Do you expect to be handed a jigsaw puzzle and immediately know how it looks when finished? Let Riot build their world. I found the animation very enlightening and finally gave Sivir some interesting backstory other than "I am a wealthy mercenary. I do it for the money, money, money".
We already know the piece that gameplay will not tie into the story, that's been stated. So anything from here forward doesn't really matter. I don't care about the rest of the puzzle, or any part of it at this point. The world they are building is uninteresting and boring, because it does not tie into gameplay.
Rioter Comments
: Dev Blog: Exploring Runeterra
I can't believe I waited two years for Riot to "give up" on finding Lore for the game. This is one of the most disappointing days I have ever had with Riot. Tommy Gnox, if this is your teams direction for story (not being tied to Gameplay), then nothing you guys can do will change the fact it's ruined from the get go. You burnt trust in a single day here, and now nobody is ever going to believe any of you when you say to trust. Have we seen any content yet? No, but we do know gameplay =/= lore, which means no matter what you make it just doesn't matter. At all. Anything you and your team is currently working on is worthless.
: "We just can't find a way to tell stories with this whole League thing in the way." Well, WE did.
If you get visibility to this topic out to more people, maybe some change can be made : http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2fkxy3/separating_lore_from_gameplay_is_an_awful_idea/
: Riot Lore, PLEASE listen, just this once. Hear me out.
I linked to you from a Reddit thread dedicated to this topic. I really wish we could get some more visibility for this topic on Lore, so more people understand what Riot is actually saying with this new Lore initiative : The game no longer has anything to do with the story. Which sucks. http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2fkxy3/separating_lore_from_gameplay_is_an_awful_idea/
: Look, we've seen them tear one thing down, but we haven't yet seen what they'll build in its place. Give them a chance before you go too far down this road.
They already said Summoners Rift now is no longer canon. In other words the game we are playing has no basis or context in their new story. There is no chance to be given with that knowledge. Anything they do from here is an automatic failure given that the main gameplay now has no basis in Lore.
Opeli (NA)
: I mean, why is it imperative that a 5v5 game is deeply connected to our characters? Can they not be enjoyed on their own, or separately? The point of separating them, although it's not clear now, is to give the champions better stories and to care about them more. You keep assuming we're doing this because we don't care or we're lazy or we (fill in the blank) but you aren't trying to consider why this *might* be a positive. It sucks to have something change, but not all change is the worst thing ever. "It's just a game" is NOT the attitude. I frickin' love League. I love the game. I like knowing about the champion I'm playing, which is a thing you'll still get to experience. The core experience of supporting a champion with a backstory, personality, and motivations has not disappeared. They just aren't permanently tied to this UN of Runeterra anymore.
First, I absolutely do NOT think Riot has lazy people, or doing this to cut corners. I am sure Riot things this is genuinely a good idea. I disagree strongly. I know for a fact your company is full of hard working and passionate people. I assume that's why we are even talking about this. I am passionate about your game and it's lore too, and that's why I'm bringing up concerns. This move IS saying that Summoners Rift is just a game, and it doesn't matter. If you don't have some kind of reason, or context, on the main mode people are playing the game in.... then Lore does not matter. If it has nothing to do with the main game, it serves no purpose. Just make a book called Runterra, because it has nothing to do with League of Legends. I'm an old player, I am OKAY with change, I really am. I'm not okay with Riot saying the primary part of their game serves no story purpose at all. That's not change. It is not giving us new story in exchange for old ... it's just taking away the story entirely and now all we have is a meaningless 5v5 arena game with no context. The characters exist, because of a 5v5 game. How can I possibly care about characters if they have nothing to do with the gameplay that will be where the vast majority of my time is spent with the game world? So spend 10 minutes reading a characters story ..... and then 10 hours of gameplay that has nothing at all to do with what I just read. What's the point of that? So now there is this character Garen, and he is a big soldier dude ..... but his character has noting to do with the game I'm playing pretty often. One of the reasons I like League over Dota, is the characters are more interesting, and have more flavor. If the 5v5 is just going to be 5 people fighting each other, with no rhyme or reason, it might as well be any of the Dota clones out there now. Your game is special because of your characters, but now you are saying they have nothing to do with the core game. "give the champions better stories and to care about them more" Why? Why would I possibly care about characters that have nothing to do with the game I am playing? It might be an interesting story, or fun characters, but at that point you might as well be any of the hundreds of fantasy authors out there .... because you have nothing to do with the game I am actually playing. I'll bring up the WoW examples. Would Alterac Valley, or Warsong, or Arathi be as interesting without the story context for their battles? No. 10 random people fighting in an arena, for no reason or purpose, is not interesting.
Opeli (NA)
: It's still called Summoner's Rift. It's a name I think will never go away for League, so we're not going to make you call it something else. What do you mean, why? It's a game, and we want to keep it that. It's okay for the game to stay the same and champions' backstories to change.
"Why? It's a game" Then why even fucking care about Lore if that's the attitude? You literally just used the arguments for why people say Lore in this game is a joke. "It's a game , so why care", why indeed if Riot doesn't care either.
Opeli (NA)
: But we aren't taking any champion out of the game? I don't feel like that's a fair analogy. I'm not in charge of lore, so you're all set there!
Apparently Summoners Rift no longer has any meaningful plot or story, so in effect EVERY Character has been removed from the game. We might as well be playing with "Frost Mage" and "Barbarian" on Summoners Rift for all the importance it now has. Decoupling gameplay from story is a very bad idea in this case. It SORT of works in a Game like Halo, because you have this entire other Single Player mode, so you don't have to have story in the MP portion, but SR is pretty much "the" game for most people. No plot in the main game, so why give a dam about the characters who inhabit it if there is no purpose to them being there at all?
Opeli (NA)
: We're basically reworking it all. No Summoners, no Institute of War. That was a convenient excuse plot when LoL was first created, but we want to give champions more life/energy/agency/blah blah blah and remove them from the confines of the League. I certainly don't want to think Joe Schmoe Summoner can call upon Cho'Gath, shrink him down to human size, and have him fight Heimerdinger or something (although that'd be a cool battle to see). I want Cho'Gath to be at his fullest height and size and see people get rekt. Part of the struggle, for me at least, is that it's a monumental task to do a FULL re-envisioning for the ENTIRE cast and beyond, and we'd always be battling with time. I don't think piecemeal the ideal way to do it, but we now feel compelled/pressured to give you a start and follow-up. The entire time we wanted to do story "part 2's" and stuff we knew we were going to re-explore League's world, so a lot of those efforts were put on hold until we said something about our lore reboot.
One more point, and this sort of concerns me as well. The Summoners Rift map , and all gameplay on it, has now been decoupled from the plot entirely.... why should I care about the characters in the setting if it doesn't matter? Like.... even fighting games like MK or Street Fighter explain why these seemingly random guys are fighting. 5v5 in some random arena, it doesn't matter, has no impact on anything = it doesn't matter. If what happens in the game doesn't matter, why would the lore? Would Alterac Valley, or Warson Gultch be quite the same if they didn't have a story behind them? Probably not. It's like if Halo books were the only source of the story, and 1-3 Trilogy didn't matter or have a purpose anymore. Why get invested in characters your playing if the setting i which it's happening has no purpose or setup? Summoners Rift = No Story Impact.... actually kind of reinforces the people who said Lore was a worthless pursuit, because in the end now it IS . Maybe I'm reading this wrong. It's like.... here is all this cool lore and stuff ...... and it's doesn't matter at all because the mode you're playing has exactly nothing to do with it. So why care about the story stuff at all? Alterac Valley wouldnt be as interesting without backstory.
: Dev Blog: Exploring Runeterra
Forgive me , I love Riot, but I do sometimes see a lack of focus or efficiency from Riot's end sometimes. Is this an employee project that is going to be forgotten in 6 months? I don't doubt Riot has passionate and talented people, but I sometimes question if the company has the proper focus to get projects done in reasonable amounts of time. I guess my fear is Riot decides to start over on Lore, and we won't have updates for some Characters till 2020 or something like that. The premise and idea here is awesome, but the excecution scares me. I am reluctant to get excited when Riot announces new initiatives or projects sometimes. Don't take this as a hit against Riot, I love the company you guys are just the best, but sometimes I wish growth and improvement in lacking areas didn't come so slowly. Much Love.
: Building a better Team Builder
Until this is in Ranked it unforunatly serves no purpose for me which is sad. Super awesome feature.... that I can't really enjoy.
: Never dodge. While it sucks that you feel like youve already q'd up a loss, you can still band back together, capitalize enemy mistakes and also report the player if they continued to troll.
Much less painful to take a 3LP loss, then 15LP loss on top of wasting 20+ minutes with a troll. It's already a painful and frustration experience, would rather waste 5 minutes then 20 on it.
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Wolfenstyne

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