: What is the purpose of this change if you don't mind me asking?
Actually, slight correction - spawned Krugs will actually despawn if they are left unaggro'ed for a moderate amount of time. The position of the Krug's camp makes it out of the way for most standard jungle paths - making it a basic timesink. Upping the raw value of the camp creates some weird issues in terms of expectations of value of each camp. Splitting was introduced as a way to further push the time sink quality of the camp while giving it proportional reward.
: You need to add this in the main post because it's really not clear and it is making tons of people draw wrong conclusions about the system.
I'll ask about this. It's not my messaging for the initial post so I can't just do it. I'll try to get people on it in the morning.
: Now, as a counter point, the scuttle crab has one element of RNG to it: Where it is in the river (Not counting if it's dead or not.) Elemental dragons have one element: What dragon spawned. To compare other similar abilities, Zyra's seeds and Bard chimes have one RNG element: where they spawn. Technically Bard has two with the spawn + when they spawn but it's not big enough to truly change the thing. Plants, however, have a minimum of THREE RNG elements: Where they spawn, when they spawn and what they spawn. It becomes quite frustrating when someone escapes a gank or lives because the exact thing spawned in the exact place that they exactly needed. I wouldn't feel outplayed if the enemy jungler grabbed a vision plant and saw my incoming gank, I'd feel cheated. Some RNG is ok. Elemental dragons worked fine. Yet the RNG in plants is too much. Maybe tone down the spawn, make the spawn more static in terms of time and where they spawn but keep the elements of randomness. As they are, however, they put FAR too much in the hands of the engine than they do ofthe players.
> Plants, however, have a minimum of THREE RNG elements: Where they spawn, when they spawn and what they spawn. It becomes quite frustrating when someone escapes a gank or lives because the exact thing spawned in the exact place that they exactly needed. I wouldn't feel outplayed if the enemy jungler grabbed a vision plant and saw my incoming gank, I'd feel cheated. This is a fairly concise way of putting the major thing that the spawning system for the plants need to deal with. While I've given you the specific details for these in a different post - I'll reiterate them as a response here just because this is a great summary recap: 1. Where they spawn This is the main targetted source of variance for plants to avoid them being fixed plan strategies. However, the locations are fairly well seeded in a set of fixed locations. 2. When they spawn The first plant wave has a fixed spawn time. After a plant is used, there is a minimum spawn time that is required before a plant will respawn. After this minimum time has passed - the time when the plant will be active will be telegraphed 30 seconds in advance by a growing plant so that time variances can be planned around via scouting rather than using a stopwatch. 3. What they spawn We tackle this by ensuring that each spawn position don't have overlapping positions. Each plant has a set amount of possible spawn locations for it that make sense for the context. Satchel plants are generally near interesting wall hops. Oranges spawn in the river (and only river locations) while Vision plants inhabit major walkways that are in-roads to buffs or river.
Hige (NA)
: Xypherous, what is surprising is that there's quite some people in here who dislike the feature at first glance, I can't believe that from the labs this feature came unhinged, either the samples are WAY too different or something just doesn't add up :S my best bet is that people who tried it were mostly neutral about the whole thing and you guys took this as an a-ok? I just don't understand.
> I just don't understand. There's a couple of additional things to think about: Internal playtests and labs have a bit of bias towards positivity because they are in-person and survey interactions. The flip side of that is that it's much easier to be hostile in a mostly anonymous environment where you can't see the other person. Combine these and you usually get the result of that online feedback will always have a negative bias and in person feedback will always have a positive bias. The other facet of this is that most people are reading RNG and assuming the worst about RNG because there's a lot of bad RNG models. **They are entirely right to assume the worst about RNG models - because RNG models can be really bad.** It's absolutely true that uncontrolled RNG is as bad as a lot of people think it is. However, whenever we work in RNG systems - the trick isn't throw RNG at it - it's how many rules and how many constraints we can put on the RNG so that it still feels like you have some control of the system. This isn't a thing that reads well (and honestly, isn't something we explained in the initial post - so it's fairly warranted). If you want to think about it in TCG terms - it's the difference between grabbing a bunch of random magic cards and telling someone to try to play a game (it'll be miserable if it's purely random) versus grabbing a well constructed deck and telling someone to try to play a game (despite the randomness in card draw - this will likely be fun) - that's a kind of difference between RNG vs. PRNG systems.
LankPants (OCE)
: >or ranged / melee split if that's too controversial. There's already one of those on the item, ranged champs slow for 30%, melees for 40%. Thanks for showing that you have no idea what the item you're proposing to remove does though.
> [{quoted}](name=LankPants,realm=OCE,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MmxwV82e,comment-id=003d0000000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-13T07:34:20.028+0000) > > There's already one of those on the item, ranged champs slow for 30%, melees for 40%. Thanks for showing that you have no idea what the item you're proposing to remove does though. You're right - my bad. I should say 'way harsher ranged/melee' split as the current one clearly isn't enough to prevent Gnar from murdering it.
Sylvr (NA)
: One more plant pun, and I'm gonna leave.
> [{quoted}](name=Sylvr,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MmxwV82e,comment-id=009a,timestamp=2016-10-13T07:36:41.488+0000) > > One more plant pun, and I'm gonna leave. You mean 'Leaf'? ...I'm sorry. I had to.
RaamEsirote (EUNE)
: how do plant interact with the attack move command? can you accidentally attack one instead of a champ?
> [{quoted}](name=RaamEsirote,realm=EUNE,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MmxwV82e,comment-id=0096,timestamp=2016-10-13T07:30:15.511+0000) > > how do plant interact with the attack move command? can you accidentally attack one instead of a champ? I believe they are neutral by nature (kind of like Jungle Monsters) and thus you won't A move on them.
: Riot has admitted many things have been bad. How many things have been reverted other than Kog'Maw?
> [{quoted}](name=Nagoh Shan,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MmxwV82e,comment-id=002100000000,timestamp=2016-10-13T07:27:05.388+0000) > > Riot has admitted many things have been bad. > > How many things have been reverted other than Kog'Maw? Tower shields. Enchantments. The entire mechanism for Dragon I designed got replaced with another one. Black Cleaver, BoRK power - a bunch of item decisions that I've made were flatly wrong and have been reworked by now. Feral Flare. A lot of summoner spells at this point have been nuked. It kind of goes on. It'll be Aegis soon. You're right though, in that we probably don't remove as many bad decisions as quickly as we should. However, from the flip side - each time we reverted one of these - you'd find a camp of people who were arguing that the revert was a bad decision. I'm not sure how that balances out in the end.
NotEtho (NA)
: Any word on how this will affect the vision game? The Scryer's Bloom seems like a powerful vision tool, but it doesnt give you any ability to sweep out wards or cancel vision. Raptor smite was a good vision denial tool, especially while ganking and setting up around objectives, and there doesn't seem to be a replacement for that.
> [{quoted}](name=NotEtho,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MmxwV82e,comment-id=0092,timestamp=2016-10-13T07:24:29.126+0000) > > Any word on how this will affect the vision game? The Scryer's Bloom seems like a powerful vision tool, but it doesnt give you any ability to sweep out wards or cancel vision. Raptor smite was a good vision denial tool, especially while ganking and setting up around objectives, and there doesn't seem to be a replacement for that. Scryer's are pretty powerful in this regard as they will cause stealthed wards to be revealed - which means that you can then go and sweep them if you're close enough.
Gixia (NA)
: Out of curiousity, why was the plant trigger chosen to be an auto-attack over, say, a melee range click interaction similar to Thresh's lantern? I'd be interested in learning the design process behind why it was chosen to make them work the specific way they do.
This was considered actually - I don't recall the exact details here (I'm not the primary designer on plants). I think the ranged / melee split actually created the amount of contextual decision making that they wanted - so they wanted the range to actually be a key difference that characters had interacting with these.
LankPants (OCE)
: >That said, that's a problem that plants can't really solve as their main goal is to solve something else so.. >_< Yes they can, give them a minimum range to be attacked from or multiple HP VS ranged champs.
While true - I think this eliminates some of the tactical context that they were going for. This is where I get hazy on the details because I'm not the primary owner of this project. That's about all I can say about that.
LankPants (OCE)
: >(Yes, we should probably delete Mallet. The current interim solution is just nerf it to the point where only a few truly dedicated builds can use it - is that still a huge concern for you?) Alternatively just make the thing melee only. The only champs abusing Mallet are Gnar and Yasou, and Yas just needs either hard nerfs or a soft rework. There are champions like Shyvana who Mallet is a good option on and who it doesn't feel unhealthy on.
Noted. I'll float that idea around - or ranged / melee split if that's too controversial. **EDIT:** Sigh. There already is one. I'll have to float around a **harsher** melee / ranged split if that's too controversial. That's how little I see the item outside of abuse cases. >_<
: > [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MmxwV82e,comment-id=0014000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-13T06:47:58.192+0000) > > Unfortunately, I can&#x27;t do this. This change has tested fairly positively in our internal playtests with our playtest team and from players that we&#x27;ve brought in to riot to playtest the thing before launch. Certainly, your voices here are a data point in that set - but I can&#x27;t even say it&#x27;s an overwhelming majority. > > It&#x27;s a lor of people who have played it internally and generally liked it - versus a lot of people who have read about the changes and don&#x27;t like it. > > That&#x27;s not to say that you don&#x27;t have the potential to be absolutely right about this in the end but listening to you guys would be ignoring a bunch of feedback from **another** overwhelming group who have said they have enjoyed it. > > I know that&#x27;s not a good answer - You can and should feel like you have every right to disagree with it. If I could only ask one thing is just please play it on PBE and keep giving us feedback on how you feel about it. Now this isn't the best answer man. You have a playtest team if staff. Paid staff. Whintest everything first. You HOPE they are honest in their opinions but contracts yada yada truthful ya yada yada. The player base that you wanna reach starts at PBE which by the way still is very small. I know I've applied for PBE account for few years now never got 1 but so many people have more than 1. These forums are people like me. The ONLY way to have a say and you said we are free to disagree but it doesn't stop you from just doing it anyway because my comments also just get buried and probably go unread so it really doesn't make a difference
> [{quoted}](name=Aero Xross,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MmxwV82e,comment-id=00140001000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-13T06:59:33.053+0000) > > Now this isn&#x27;t the best answer man. You have a playtest team if staff. Paid staff. Whintest everything first. You HOPE they are honest in their opinions but contracts yada yada truthful ya yada yada. The player base that you wanna reach starts at PBE which by the way still is very small. I know I&#x27;ve applied for PBE account for few years now never got 1 but so many people have more than 1. These forums are people like me. The ONLY way to have a say and you said we are free to disagree but it doesn&#x27;t stop you from just doing it anyway because my comments also just get buried and probably go unread so it really doesn&#x27;t make a difference I mean, yes, we have paid staff. However, player lab results are from players that we bring in locally to test stuff. Yes - I agree that there is a bias towards positivity in these settings. I can't ignore them. > The ONLY way to have a say and you said we are free to disagree but it doesn't stop you from just doing it anyway because my comments also just get buried and probably go unread so it really doesn't make a difference I'm going to break an (admittedly kind of soft) rule here but I'm going to try to get you a PBE account if that's okay with you. I can't read every comment. I know that. You guys outnumber me so much. Gone are the days where I could literally reply to everyone on the thread with a mere 100 posts. But I can assure you that I've at least read this one.
: Alright, so let me try to summarize this correctly so I'm not getting anything confused: * Plants have fixed spawns. (Let's pretend and say there are 5) * Plants always spawn in those 5 locations. * Plants spawn at random intervals (???) Is that correct? Is there something else I could be missing here? (I don't want to argue the wrong point.)
1. Plants have seeded fixed spawn locations. For each type of plant, there are probably 3 or 4 per side of the map. 2. Each type of plant have their own fixed spawn locations - that are independent of the other types of plants. Satchels and Visions never share locations, for example - so there's never a 'Man - I expected an orange but I got a satchel' 3. Plants spawn at random intervals because of a few things: They spawn after they are used - which means they'll desync from any kind of timer. Once used, they have a minimum time they wait before they'll respawn (pretty long). Afterwards, there's a small variable in when they'll spawn - **but** they'll telegraph when they're about to revive about ~30 to 45 seconds before they come back up and ready to be used. Yeah - you're mostly correct - just added some minor additions that I think are pretty important.
: "Jungle routes have been completely figured out by high elo junglers, everybody just smites Raptors or sometimes Wolves after laning phase, and the whole thing doesn't actually have any strategic depth anymore because **the puzzle was solved**. We're trying to build a new puzzle now." There. Try writing *that* instead next time. Drop the buzzwords, get to the point.
That's probably a fair critique of how I write. That said, that's not entirely true. The puzzle isn't providing enough payoff for how complicated it is would probably be a better way of putting it. The other portion of this is that - we don't want to build more rote solveable puzzles. We want to build self-morphing puzzles or at least puzzles that refresh themselves and this is our latest attempt at that.
Zok72 (NA)
: Thanks for the response. I'm still not sold on the idea but it's good to know you guys think about stuff like this. On a side note, Illaoi seems pretty intuitive to me because health bars communicate a LOT of info, especially the info "attack this". In fact part of my concerns with plants is that you don't always want to attack them despite their health bars.
Oh - For Illaoi - it's actually the tether / vessel + tentacle interaction that requires tooltip reading - Something about vessels and tentacle slam limit that I always need to reread. > In fact part of my concerns with plants is that you don't always want to attack them despite their health bars. Ah - good concern. We're currently working on a 'neutral/passive' health bar color for these guys so they don't immediately read as enemies.
: If you wanted to get that point across, then maybe you shouldn't have used clips of dumbasses getting lucky breaks. There wasn't any display of thought or skill in those clips.
That's actually a really good point. I'll need to keep that in mind for future clips with these. Thanks!
: > giving the player the freedom to choose doesn't actually increase the skill factor of the game by much I don't even know how to respond to this, you're just wrong... By your logic having every jungle camp give you one of the bonuses at random instead of the specific one tailored to that camp doesn't decrease skill cap. > but the key here is whether or not players have the ability to adapt to and use unforeseen situations like this favorably - rather than being pure RNG that screws you over or not. Please tell me you at least realize what you just said actually makes no sense whatsoever. They're adapting to RNG screwing them or their opponent over. > given the freedom to choose, most players optimize towards what's comfortable This is basic human psyche not a design flaw, we like being able to make our own plan and stick to it. It's why a lot of people choose to play only 1 or 2 out of 100+ champs. They will find how they like playing the game the most (clearing jung) and stick to it. But this entire change just adds RNG that will screw over either you or the enemy. No one will feel like they outplayed their opponent when there happens to be a 500hp heal close to them, it'll feel bad for both sides. Look at the shitshow that is competitive hearthstone right now if you really wanna see how much people hate RNG, and that's a casual card game, this is one of the most competitive games in the world. I don't know how well you know the game but there are cards such as "**Barnes: ** Battlecry: Summon a 1/1 copy of a random minion in your deck". Everyone hates this card since what it pulls can change the game, do you get a 1/1 with no effect or a card that deals 8 dmg randomly at the end of your turn. That's what this plant system is, random spawns that you can't control and will decide fights with little to no skill involve. Then take the Discover mechanic for example. Discover is an ability that allows the player to choose from three different pseudo-randomly selected cards, with the chosen option generated and added to their hand. People love this mechanic. You can pick from one of three, which will help you most in your current situation, the heal, the freeze, the damage? It keeps you constantly playing on your toes and adapting to the situation, but gives you direct control over it instead of the game telling you how to go about the situation. Compare this to the jungle camps, you can choose which buff (card) you want, a heal, poison dot, monster stun, ect. Instead of telling the people who are pleading with you to make the game better and not turn it for the worse that they're wrong, see why the overwhelming majority is telling you they don't want the change, and see how you can make them happy... The community didn't want DQ, you shoved it down our throat before realizing how bad it ended up in all the ways we said it would. We said the Morde/ Skarner update would ruin the character and make them even more of a balancing nightmare than before and that ended up being true too. The community as a whole, believe it or not, knows what they want. PBE testers are a very small sample size of on average very low elo players so using an excuse like "Graves was seen as trash on the PBE and beyond over powered when he went live" doesn't work. We're not telling you the plant types or numbers are going to be unbalanced since we can't playtest them on a widescale level yet. We're telling you they're going to be **unfun** and **unbalanceable**, a failure at a conceptual level which should never get to the point of playtesting.
> I don't even know how to respond to this, you're just wrong... By your logic having every jungle camp give you one of the bonuses at random instead of the specific one tailored to that camp doesn't decrease skill cap. The skills required to optimize the jungle hasn't changed. The payoff that you get for those skills dramatically changes - but that has nothing to do with the skill cap. Poker, for example, has an extremely high skill cap. That doesn't mean that skill is directly rewarded with effectiveness. However - my point was more specifically - if players have more freedom to choose, they tend to choose things that minimize their need to adapt or respond to the game. While I agree with you that this *is* a basic player's psyche - that doesn't mean directly rewarding it is good. Players would love to be able to have a fixed opening hand in Hearthstone. I'm pretty sure that would decrease the skill of the game quite a bit more than the current initial draw. > Discover is an ability that allows the player to choose from three different pseudo-randomly selected cards, with the chosen option generated and added to their hand. Discover is a great comparison point to bring up. Discover forces you to choose between three options **but** the options are psuedo-randomly generated. Discover only being the **same** three cards would actually be much less of a skill test because the solution space would be relatively easy to become rote or memorized. Some level of randomness needs to exist to make Discover interesting and plants are **very heavily** a psuedo-random system. They have set spawn locations - certain timings - a set starting configuration. The task here is to figure out what level of psuedo-randomness gets us returns and what level starts hurting the mechanic. Discover with three fixed options - bad. Discover that gives you a completely random card - bad. Discover that lets you adapt to a set of psuedo-random outcomes - best of their possible worlds. Our goal for plants is much the same. > Instead of telling the people who are pleading with you to make the game better and not turn it for the worse that they're wrong, see why the overwhelming majority is telling you they don't want the change, and see how you can make them happy... Unfortunately, I can't do this. This change has tested fairly positively in our internal playtests with our playtest team and from players that we've brought in to riot to playtest the thing before launch. Certainly, your voices here are a data point in that set - but I can't even say it's an overwhelming majority. It's a lor of people who have played it internally and generally liked it - versus a lot of people who have read about the changes and don't like it. That's not to say that you don't have the potential to be absolutely right about this in the end but listening to you guys would be ignoring a bunch of feedback from **another** overwhelming group who have said they have enjoyed it. I know that's not a good answer - You can and should feel like you have every right to disagree with it. If I could only ask one thing is just please play it on PBE and keep giving us feedback on how you feel about it.
: I think part of the problem is that it's not one layer of variance/RNG. Elemental dragons work because they're one single RNG element. They still spawn the same and the differences combat-wise are so minuscule you probably never noticed unless you're in deep shit. (And yeah, I personally think the dragon changes were great on paper. Needed ironing out but they worked.) The difference here is that this is RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG. Randomly spawning a random fruit in a random section of the jungle. There's so much random going on that when it works in your favor you feel cheated. If plants appeared in a SINGLE SPOT on a SET TIME with some variance at the type of plant, it might work. Maybe. Like I said in another comment, DOTA2's Rune-system injects some interesting changes into the game. But as this is, there's too much variance for it to work in a realistic setting. Also, really, can we please put the old buffs on these fruits? Heavy hands/toadstool/razor sharp were all very enjoyable to have.
> The difference here is that this is RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG. Randomly spawning a random fruit in a random section of the jungle. There's so much random going on that when it works in your favor you feel cheated. That's not the way the system works. Plants have a fixed set of pre-determined spawn locations. These spawn locations don't overlap. You'll never have a spot where oranges *or* a satchel could spawn for example. The RNG here is in the of this set of possible orange locations, where did oranges / vision / satchel spawn in this time interval. The time interval has some slight variance (because no one knows their exact time that they were last popped) - but it's not the triple RNG layer that you're describing.
: >As the attacker in this scenario - if I pop the plant early, I can fling them into an even more disadvantageous position. Did you leave out something in the video? It could only be triggered by basic attacks, so your hypothetical trick is impossible. Even if skillshots *could* trigger them, how many abilities have that kind of reach and can pass through champions? This plant strictly favors someone who is trying to run away from attackers. >Oranges on the other hand, impose a pretty hefty movement speed slow for 0.25 seconds when you eat them - so they're taking a tactical hit between healing vs. positioning - which has also been fairly interactive for both sides. Yawn. Healing will be worth it in almost every circumstance. Oh yeah, and quit it with the indirect Karthus nerfs... he deserved that kill.
> Did you leave out something in the video? It could only be triggered by basic attacks, so your hypothetical trick is impossible. They have to run *past* the plant in order to get punted away from me. The common scenario that I've run into in playtests is typically - I am ranged. They are melee. Instead of choosing to shoot them, I will instead move forward and shoot the plant pre-emptively. > This plant strictly favors someone who is trying to run away from attackers. That also depends on whether their escape path is directly along the route of a plant. Basically, if they choose a side path that doesn't have a plant in it - the other play attackers can make is to use plants to do a wall-hop flank to cut them off, which has also happened. > Yawn. Healing will be worth it in almost every circumstance. Oh yeah, and quit it with the indirect Karthus nerfs... he deserved that kill. Sure, 0.25 slow doesn't sound terrible. That's for one fruit. There's 5 you have to eat. So the real question is more something like - do you heal for 350 and take a 90% 1.25 second slow in combat?
Rob X (NA)
: This kind of mini-game crap is not needed or wanted. What you can do though, is divert all the resources and employees off of whatever this is, and redirect them to fixing know bugs and work on cleaning up game code/interactions... adding more weird code and unnecessary features is taking 2 steps back without ever attempting to take the first step forward. Once you've done that, then you can add new features. There is literally no reason that you should have a "know bugs" list that has stuff from a year ago or older and you choose to keep adding other things instead of fixing stuff first. Don't the coders know that fixing stuff becomes harder the more new things you introduce? Or do you have a secondary team that is already rewriting the game code from scratch to fix the severely dated code, meanwhile you test new features on the broken code to gauge player reaction? (please god, let it be this) Fix first, add later.
> Don't the coders know that fixing stuff becomes harder the more new things you introduce? Or do you have a secondary team that is already rewriting the game code from scratch to fix the severely dated code, meanwhile you test new features on the broken code to gauge player reaction? (please god, let it be this) Man. Okay - so this is a common concern. There's a distinction between scripting and coding. Scripters and design implementors interact with the game at a certain layer. Engineers and coders work with the game at a different layer. Engineers do work on fixing broken code or rewriting old code to better fit new designs as much as they can. Plants and items and such are generally handled by scripters who write with an interpretation layer on top of the code in order to produce content. Here's the thing: You can't throw scripters at code because at their core they're not engineers and don't understand how to write C++ or maintainable code. Their job is to take the hooks that the code provides them and write content that utilize that code in predetermined ways that the code does. You *could* throw scripters at half a dozen bugs that are rooted in code - but that wouldn't make the engine more stable because those fixes are typically just symptomatic bandages rather than fixing the underlying problem. There are people that are hybrid that can do both - Technical designers handle both script and code, for example. They're a fairly rare breed of individual because it involves needing an interest in designing content with having a deep engineering background. Those individuals would be the only ones that you'd get when you say 'hey, stop designing new content' - and even then the issue is that, as hybrids, some of us don't have as many levels in engineer as a pure classed engineer. TL;DR - don't throw scripters at code bugs. The resulting fixes always make me terrified. Please assign engineers to them and let scripters focus on making content that gives engineers valid reasons to rewrite things to be better. For example, we've fixed a bunch of UI bugs because plants required better underlying UI tech.
: So TL;DR * Smite buffs REMOVED. * Smite now heals period (On champ application too?) * Plants are the new hotness and randomly spawn. * Plants include: A knockback plant, a heal plant and a vision plant. * Jungle has been RETUNED to account for lacking stuff like heavy hands and gromp. Are these plants all we're dealing with or are there a few you guys are hiding in a grow house somewhere in the middle of nowhere?
Only the 3 thus far - there isn't any in development - but if any particular plant is bad - we'd be keen to replace that with something better if we can find it. Spawns randomly in a number of pre-determined set spawn locations is probably more accurate.
Zok72 (NA)
: As a follow up to your comments about complexity here, these plants seem beginner unfriendly, especially when compared to smite buffs. This may have been somewhat untrue given how the camps were tuned but in principle smite buffs don't detriment a player who doesn't know they exist or know what they do; a beginner (assuming they vaguely understand how smite works) can just smite a camp and walk around with an extra buff they don't notice. Plants on the other hand can punish players who don't know what they do. Imagine for example if the Jayce in the video had seen heal plants but not bomb plants. That player can end up killing themself (by incorrectly attacking the plant). The same concern can be raised about the healing plant, slowing yourself is dangerous and leaving plants that may heal the enemy is dangerous (at least vision plant has low downside). This means that in order to play with plants a player has to first know what they all look like and do. In other words, the baseline accessibility of plants is much lower than that of smite buffs because smite buffs don't have to be used correctly by design (again the tuning of the buffs may have presented a problem which makes this untrue). I am not saying smite buffs should have been kept, the arguments against them are convincing, but I think plants are the wrong way to replace them. TLDR: Plants increase league's barrier to entry more than smite buffs
> This may have been somewhat untrue given how the camps were tuned but in principle smite buffs don't detriment a player who doesn't know they exist or know what they do; a beginner (assuming they vaguely understand how smite works) can just smite a camp and walk around with an extra buff they don't notice. I might agree with this on principle - but in practice, the way the jungle is tuned, the beginner who smited the wrong camp simply died in the jungle. We saw this with the release of smite buffs - it took something like 2 months before people figured out that there were smite buffs to help them in their clear. > TLDR: Plants increase league's barrier to entry more than smite buffs The key distinction to think about is learnability through observation of experience. Basically - if you see it and use it, how quickly can you learn it? If you do it wrong once, how quickly do you learn to do the correct behavior? For the Smite buffs, it was pretty much - you have to continuously fail in order to figure out how to do it correctly or, more likely, read some kind of guide - especially since each buff had its own little idiosyncracies. The plants are more complex on the surface - definitely agree there - but they are able to express much more of their rules through a single interaction that Smite buffs were able to do. If you screw up Satchel **just once** - you will know what Satchel does to heart. If you screwed up the Smite buff in the jungle once - that didn't point you towards how to do it right. The entry barrier isn't made of raw complexity - the barrier is mostly made up of how much it is possible to learn through experience and how much has to be memorized or read up on. You can intuitively learn how to play against Ezreal by dodging all of his skillshots. You **must** read Illaoi's tooltips in order to understand how to fight tentacles - that kind of distinction.
Orles (NA)
: Every particular thing shouldn't be balanced to be 100% fair for melee and ranged, but the game as a whole SHOULD favor melee and ranged equally. Honestly I have no idea how you'd do this; range just adds so much safety. That being said, you can't ignore or deny that this is another aspect of the game that favors ranged over melee, and that ranged is currently much stronger than melee. Look at who's currently meta: Even in the toplane it's ranged champions.
Definitely agreed that it's something that we need to work on as it becomes a larger and larger feature with each addition we make to the game. That said, that's a problem that plants can't really solve as their main goal is to solve something else so.. >_<
: So instead of tactically saving smite for red buff, she can just smite anything anywhere are regain health. Although I do understand that this removes the shoehorning of smite into redbuff, it also removes the decision making of saving smite for redbuff or anything else.
> Although I do understand that this removes the shoehorning of smite into redbuff, it also removes the decision making of saving smite for redbuff or anything else. This is true. There's a couple of changes to smite to make the trade-offs more apparent: 1. The ammo recharge is about 20% longer. 2. This, in turn, means the combat smites have a direct competitor. You can smite to regain health for a gank or you can save that smite for the gank. This doesn't mean that it'll have all of the decision making that it used to but there's still enough there that the decision comes up fairly often.
Fives (EUW)
: Didnt they once talk about how they dont want frustrating moments in the game through rng hence removing the dodge stat?
Yep. There's a key difference between randomness you have no control over (RNG happening to you) versus randomness that you had some degree of agency of (Your card draw in magic has some degree of agency because you customized your deck). We've generally found that RNG is incredibly frustrating when there's no real actions you can take to mitigate it. Plants don't fall into this category for me as if you don't want plants to tactically matter, your jungler will need to control plants by systematically razing them on patrol - and that each plant does have tactical things you can do to control / or mitigate their effectiveness even if the spawn pattern doesn't favor you. This is done through some of their specific mechanics - as well as careful curation of their spawn locations. Frustration through you being unable to do anything about it is awful. Frustration because there was something you could have done better but you didn't? That's more okay in our book as long as there truly is something you can do about it in response or in preparation. Example: Scuttlecrab's actual location in the river is actually fairly random. However, tactically in response to scuttle crab, there's a ton you can do about it so the randomness of its actual location tends to not matter a lot.
: if plants turn out to be a bad idea for some reason, will you remove them or try to salvage them? In the past y'all have seemed very stubborn about not deleting things bad for overall game health (yasuo, ekko, frozen mallet), and I'm worried that if this does not succeed, the game will turn into a pile of crap.
We'll likely try to improve them based on initial feedback. If it's really truly unpopular and not working - systematic things are always suitable candidates for reverting. Champions, on the other hand, much more complex ball of worms because there's some degree of purchasing and ownership. (Yes, we should probably delete Mallet. The current interim solution is just nerf it to the point where only a few truly dedicated builds can use it - is that still a huge concern for you?)
JimMaru (NA)
: I'm actually quite glad that people are concerned and dislike this whole idea. I for one find it very arbitrary and that doesn't add anything interesting to the game. The vision one is the only that seems ok to me. Sadly as per freaking usual riot will ignore how much people dislike this and implement anyway. Prepare for one year from now "Oh, remember plants? Well, that didn't really fulfill our original intent, while also adding complexity and randomness to the game. So we're removing that and now adding neutral bugs that you have to collect in the jungle! Because having to babysit 3 lanes, control objectives, farm and counter the enemy strategy is not enough pressure on the jungler!"
> Prepare for one year from now "Oh, remember plants? Well, that didn't really fulfill our original intent, while also adding complexity and randomness to the game. I mean, if the feature is bad - I'd hope we remove it rather than keep it in the game. I get that you don't want it to be implemented in the first place - but given 'not doing anything in the fear of pissing people off' and 'taking a shot and reverting once it's a bad idea' - I think we have to go for taking the shot. The current game has problems in that things constantly get solved too quickly. We've tried a lot of things with mixed levels of success and we need to keep experimenting on this in whatever form. I'm not saying plants are perfect - they're just the latest thing that has had pretty good internal feedback that we want to see if it works on a larger scale. Please keep giving the feedback if things are working or not - because at the end of the day, we want to try bold things to keep you guys engaged and also have the ability to pull mistakes if they're clearly not working.
: Will there be visual cues on the game world to suggest what plant types can spawn in any given area of the jungle? The changes definitely look interesting, but this sounds like a *lot* of burden of knowledge to take in (multiple plant types with various effects that each have different potential spawn locations). I am a bit worried by it, to be honest.
Yeah! Each plant has a unique visual look to them - as well as different "buds" and "growing" models - so after a while, you'll be able to recognize - oh hey, a pollen plant will grow here soon. In addition, plant spawn zones don't overlap each other, so you'll never be like 'is a satchel or a dandelion going to be here?' it's going to be 'oh, is the satchel here or not?'
: > [{quoted}](name=Xypherous,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=MmxwV82e,comment-id=00220000,timestamp=2016-10-13T05:38:28.399+0000) > > It is my persistent hope this is true for every feature of League of Legends and I don&#x27;t see it being different for this. > > I have to throw in a caveat that the NA forums usually aren&#x27;t the defining example of the League Community. Initial forum backlash happens for... unfortunately everything systematic. Additionally, we&#x27;ll tend to try to improve features before scrapping them outright. > > But I will say please try it out when it hits the PBE and keep speaking up about things that frustrate or annoy you. Don't dismiss the forums simply because you don't like critical feedback. If you want everyone to dick ride then don't even bother posting here, because that is not what you're going to get. You're getting useful feedback from people here about why this change is bad. You dismissing it as us not being a representative sample is the same shit we heard about dynamic queue, and we all know how bogus that was. :| It's frustrating for us when you seem to disregard / shrug off massive amounts of feedback. I get that the work was put into this and you don't want to revert it. Next time get the feedback first before you get designers working on it so it isn't a massive waste of your time at the inception stage. This never should have left the drawing board.
> I get that the work was put into this and you don't want to revert it. Next time get the feedback first before you get designers working on it so it isn't a massive waste of your time at the inception stage. This never should have left the drawing board. My apologies for sounding dismissive. However, the feedback that boards are providing is in addition to lab tests we've run bringing in actual players as well as our pool of playtesters. The reason why we're not immediately responding to this feedback is that this isn't the initial round of feedback - and that in general, we do have to weigh the feedback of players who have experienced the system over people who are responding to a forum post.
: I'm guessing Riot's already made their decision and these will get implemented regardless of feedback, as usual. That being said, this is a totally unnecessary and anti-fun change to the game. Strategy doesn't come from randomized gimmick spawns, it evolves from a consistent set of variables in which people learn and coordinate and strategize around. This is, quite frankly, one of the worst ideas I've ever seen Riot pitch. It reminds me more of something you would see in Heroes of the Storm which, while good for some dumb fun, is a game that's struggling for player/viewer base partially due to its poor, shallow map design issues, which is exactly what these plants sound like. Illusion of depth is not depth. This will simply lead to less consistency and more random garbage to make the game more "exciting" I suppose, as sort of a band-aid to any actual problems you might see with SR. I like most of the recent changes that have come through, but this honestly sounds stupid as hell.
> I'm guessing Riot's already made their decision and these will get implemented regardless of feedback, as usual. To be fair, we're deciding this based on the strength of the internal feedback we've had from playtest and the lab tests of pro players that we've brought in. Forum feedback is yet another form of feedback that we have to add to the pile of feedback we already have. We have to weigh initial forum reactions versus the playtests that we've done internally and the players we've brought in to test / hear about the system and balance these out. You just don't see ideas that don't make it past labs, for example. > Strategy doesn't come from randomized gimmick spawns, it evolves from a consistent set of variables in which people learn and coordinate and strategize around. While I agree with this - the problem that we're trying to tackle is that strategies become rote and thus we'd have to routinely make severely problematic changes to solve this rote issue. We're experimenting with a lot of things to figure out what kind of base principles the game should be on such that there is always some degree of adaptation in the game. I would kind of point to TCG's as my example here. If card draws were deterministic - these games would be much less fun and **far** less strategic. There is an element of controlled variance here that gives them their strategic depth. You might say that Magic, for example, only has an illusion of depth - but I'm not entirely convinced of this as TCGs with deterministic draws have zero depth. There is obviously extremes in this space (Hearthstone for example, probably takes it too far) but there are a wide spectrum of games that have some in-built variance that keep the game fresh. For the other extreme, giving everyone an Aimbot in CS:GO would not make the game deeper. It would perhaps make it more strategic and turn it into an RTS - but it'd be much shallower game. The last thing I want to say is that, while I believe that there needs to be a baseline level of variables in the game to make every game force adaptation to some degree - that doesn't mean I believe that this is the be-all-end-all solution - nor does that mean that every form of variance in the game is good. For example, if plants work and we can see strong tactical variance that players aren't upset by - that frees up space to remove other elements of variance that aren't paying off... (critical strike). However, in order to do so - we have to ensure that baseline level of variance - otherwise it just becomes rote.
: I'm just going to say it. I'm not a fan of the plants. It's adding too much clutter and randomization to the game. Dragon buff does enough of this already. If you insist on having plants spawn, they should only be spawning a couple of times a game and in designated areas (such as how the scuttle crab does). This encourages consistency and allows teams to better plan around them. Their impact should be minimal, but also noticeable (think scuttle crab vision minimal). A janna ult/ziggs satchel charge are not appropriate for plants and should be restricted to champion kits, not random jungle elements. I am just not sold on the plants as a whole. I see them doing more harm than good. If I was that Karthus from your video I would be pissed Gnar received a bunch of random plant healing, while my ult went on a huge ass cooldown. If you insist on keeping them random all over the map, why not have them grant small amounts of vision like the scuttle crab does? This might be a way to get teams more involved in vision control, rather than that being only the job of the support. Adding new elements to the game is fine, but I don't think now is the time to add plants, at least not anywhere near on the scale you seem to be suggesting. Season 6 was a perfect example of having too much change with not enough of it being thought out. I'd hate to see season 7 go the same route :/ I think we can all agree season 6 was the worst season for league's integrity both competitively and game-health wise. We need to focus on refining this season, not adding in a bunch of new elements like this. What is the point of plants? What do you want it to accomplish? Change for the sake of change isn't good. Just because it's new and exciting does not make it healthy for the game - That's something that the bonus game modes are for, not all of summoner's rift.
> If you insist on having plants spawn, they should only be spawning a couple of times a game and in designated areas (such as how the scuttle crab does). This encourages consistency and allows teams to better plan around them. In a typical game, I've only seen 5 or 6 generations of plants (spawn waves) - and the possible areas in which plants spawns are heavily heavily curated to facilitate gameplay decisions. While there's always optimizations to be made to spawn systems like this - you'll note some trends - Vision seeds will generally be at one of a few ramp locations. Oranges will generally be at one of the river forks - while satchels will generally be next to some of the key wall jumps - rather than randomly scattered all over the place.
: But it's fine as it is right now..? You guys don't need to be constantly "fixing" things, some stuff is actually fine the way it is believe it or not. This whole change seems like it would just make jungling/invading a lot more annoying. I hope this isn't something you ignore everyone on and then revert again next pre-season.
> This whole change seems like it would just make jungling/invading a lot more annoying. > I hope this isn't something you ignore everyone on and then revert again next pre-season. I mean, if it's actually bad - I kind of hope we'd revert eventually. We just wouldn't leave it in if it's bad. I get that you mean that you'd probably want us to revert it earlier if it's bad but it's likely that we'd want to hear the first level concerns of how to improve it before outright reverting it.
: Could enough backlash from the League Community cause the changes to be removed? I feel as though these changes will not be well received by most players.
It is my persistent hope this is true for every feature of League of Legends and I don't see it being different for this. I have to throw in a caveat that the NA forums usually aren't the defining example of the League Community. Initial forum backlash happens for... unfortunately everything systematic. Additionally, we'll tend to try to improve features before scrapping them outright. But I will say please try it out when it hits the PBE and keep speaking up about things that frustrate or annoy you. **Note:** I want to apologise if I sound like I'm dismissing forum feedback. That's not what I meant to do, my bad. It's always pretty useful hearing the initial reactions of forums. However, directly acting on this feedback means typically means directly acting against playtest feedback that we've gathered from our own internal playtest team of ex-pros and people that we've brought in for player labs tests. Again, I want to reiterate - please try this out on PBE when you get a hand and give us feedback again, especially on things that bother you.
Arakadia (NA)
: Why are we removing Smite Buffs?
While we generally like some of what Smite Buffs do - there was a significant cost to having them in the game in terms of memorization and the kinds of rote memorization that you needed to do before interacting with the game. The hard answer for this is that players crave complexity in all forms - especially ones that they've personally mastered. However, there is only a set amount of complexity that any game can have and still be learnable and playable - and so we frequently prune elements (and elements that we like) in order to make room for elements that we hope we'll like more. This isn't a comfortable answer to hear - but imagine the world if we just kept adding more and more mechanics layered on top of each other - while existing players would probably be okay with this somewhat - eventually that ball just becomes an unrecognizable tangle of stuff. You kind of have to clean up every once in while and make room for new content and streamline or strip away old content that either isn't working or just isn't paying off as much as it needs to. You are absolutely free to disagree with this though - it's not a great answer to hear and it's one of those like 'man, I wish someone could figure out the problem of continuous content development but manageable complexity.' This is kind of why I focus on stuff like UI / Combat text a lot of the time - I want to combat complexity as much as I can to have added elements work out.
: I was kinda hoping for something that could make Support more attractive to players, but I see more RNG. I guess less people in the jungle more for support?
The purpose of this particular post isn't to talk about Support changes - nor is this the only post that we'll do about Preseason. There are some considerations for support - but mostly in itemization with regards to Aegis changes.
Anonagon (NA)
: Are you taking into account Ranged vs Melee at all when it comes to contesting Plants? If two players decide to contest a plant, what is there to make sure that a ranged champion can't just auto it once from range, get the benefits, then leave? I imagine that isn't a problem for the Blast Cone, but for the Honeyfruit and Scryer's Bloom, it seems that there's no reason not to just recklessly auto them to secure it - unless - can Honeyfruit you proc can heal enemies?
> it seems that there's no reason not to just recklessly auto them to secure it - unless - can Honeyfruit you proc can heal enemies? Honeyfruit that are spawned are neutral and can be consumed by either party. Consuming a honeyfruit will slow you for the ~0.2 seconds that you are nomming on it though.
Gixia (NA)
: My primary concern regarding plants as you've described them is the fact that they trigger on auto-attack. This seems like good usage of them would heavily skew towards anybody with a ranged auto-attack. Like say in that Jayce clip, if he was being chased by a Caitlyn instead of a Graves. She shoots ahead of him to hit the plant, knock him back towards her to ruin his escape, gg get fucked. Or in the Lee Sin clip, he managed to use the plant to get vision over the wall and wreck Nunu, because Nunu's melee and couldn't do squat about it. Whereas if it was, say, a Fiddle or an Elise jungle, he could ward over the wall and shoot the plant before starting the dragon to deny usage of it. It just feels like anyone with a ranged auto-attack inherently benefits more from plants and has more ways to play with and around them then a melee champ who has to run up to them would have. Especially in any chace scenario where a melee would have to break off his target to hit the plant wheras a ranged champion wouldn't have to.
This concern is valid but I'm not sure that each individual facet of the game has to benefit ranged and melee equally. I think the game as whole needs to have enough things such that melee and ranged feel like they are on par with each other - rather than pointing to specifics. Towers, for example, favor ranged. I'm not sure Towers need to be redesigned to be more balanced between melee and ranged. Now it'd be nice if there was some more things that melee are better at intrinsically in terms of map - outside of the current 'it kind of seems like every melee champion can build full tank and output considerable damage' - which is something we'll need to pay more attention to as we add more and more factors in favor of ranged champions. Although - for Honeyfruit - they spawn in proximity of the plant - so even if ranged characters can pop it early - that doesn't mean they benefit from it.
: You guys really need to learn "don't fix what's not broken"... Thought you would have with some of the decisions you made this season but apparently not. No one likes RNG. All it does is water down the skill factor. Smite buffs are a great idea and let you choose how you want to play instead of RNG deciding for you. If you're just not happy with the state they're in why not rework some of them instead of doing something completely new?
While I can kind of see where the skill factor argument is coming from - giving the player the freedom to choose doesn't actually increase the skill factor of the game by much. Forcing the player to overcome difficult situations is a test of skill - albeit not one that most players are comfortable with as it's facing the unknown. However - given the freedom to choose, most players optimize towards what's comfortable (which eventually leads to optimizing towards either rote play or just boring play). This either means that you change everything just to make different decisions - or you try to figure out what kind of skill tests can hold up over a very long lifetime - thus the experiments in contextual variance in-game. There are definitely troublesome aspects to this - and it is definitely uncomfortable from a theoretical perspective but the key here is whether or not players have the ability to adapt to and use unforeseen situations like this favorably - rather than being pure RNG that screws you over or not.
: seems to complicated and luck based. Running away from a gank and then you have luck and walk into the right plant and escape? 0 skill involved and it will just be frustrating to deal with. Please dont do that change. At least thats my opinion on this. Also you guys fucked up a whole season with dynamic que already, could you please NOT fuck the next season with a retarded change like this? Thank you.
> Running away from a gank and then you have luck and walk into the right plant and escape? 0 skill involved and it will just be frustrating to deal with. I actually haven't found this to be zero skill involved in practice. As the attacker in this scenario - if I pop the plant early, I can fling them into an even more disadvantageous position. Basically, satchel seeds are double edged swords. They knock back - but the runner in this case needs to set up to be flung in the correct direction - so your job as attacker is to either deny via flanking or punt them via suppression during the act. Oranges on the other hand, impose a pretty hefty movement speed slow for 0.25 seconds when you eat them - so they're taking a tactical hit between healing vs. positioning - which has also been fairly interactive for both sides.
: How many Plant types are you planning to have take root around the rift? The Blast cone does have me a little concerned because team mates can troll you and launch you into the enemy Also, now I want a gardener Zyra skin with her taking care of these plants
> How many Plant types are you planning to have take root around the rift? The 3 described are the 3 that are part of the initial batch. We don't have any others currently in development - but we'd always be interested if there are better incarnations.
Urhakaan (NA)
: so a 300 game hardstuck silver with under 50% winrate is directing the jungle / game now ... good stuff ... im sure you know how the low elos dont use the current jungle buffs being stuck there and not using them yourself right ?
I suppose you could view it in that light. However, this isn't tailored towards silver players. More consistency would likely help silver players out as they begin to build a playbook of their own. The problem in LoL at the moment is that there are so many external factors under the player's control so they exercise that to make fight contexts as unimportant as possible - which leads to a lack of situations to adapt to and more things falling under rote memorization or simply known playbook experience kinds of settings. We've focused on adapting to strategic contexts in the past - and this is an attempt at figuring out if we can make tactical contexts more important.
: Any plans for any existing champions (eg ivern/mao/zyra) to have special plant interactions, or is keeping them functionally identical regardless of champ something you want to keep?
At the moment, it's likely to be functionally identical regardless of champ. Minus the fact that ranged champions can pop them from afar - but that's just basic attack things.
Venchair (NA)
: I think the Honey plant is a bit too out of the way for the jungler, I imagine it'll just be a source the stronger top laner will use to hold an advantage in lane.
Potentially. There will be a time cost to doing so - so he'll likely sacrifice a bit of xp and gold in exchange for health. Probably worth the travel time. However, the amount of times that the honey plants respawn in the laning phase makes this interaction happen ~2 times at most unless top lane becomes a 20 minute+ stalemate. It does become an interesting strategy for the jungler to come up to secure the plant for you - essentially enabling the jungler to grant *you* healing by allowing you to safely travel down there to control the plant - or as recovery for a failed gank attempt - so there's a bit of back and forth when they're up at times.
: Well, given that they have forewarning of about 30 seconds until they show up, it mostly seems ... avoid and clear? Here's the thing: if someone is in control of the plant, and said control makes a 'takeable fight' no longer takeable, the enemy will disengage. There is no point when the odds have shifted enough it becomes unacceptably risky, unless there is some intrinsic way to outplay the person who is in charge of the plant. That's the key, and I'm a little doubtful about it. Ultimately, once people have learned what the plants do, it will be a case of 'X+Y plant = better in Z scenarios'. Then it's business as usual from there out.
Personally, I've found that plants generally chip in the most when fights become extended or shift locations due to the nature of their seeded locations. The spawn locations of the plants are not predisposed towards being in the center of areas that you need to control - as that would lead to the stalemates that you describe - the spawn locations are generally chosen to be on the edge of those control areas. For example: Plants don't spawn in the middle of the river in front of Dragon pit - as that would be doubly down on control advantages. Their seeded spawn locations tends to favor river inlets and such - so paths that you would use to path into or away from central control locations and thus avoid some of the fight bottlenecks and posturing concerns that you've raised here.
: WOW... Ok, Idk what to think about this.. (WAS THAT 5 MINI RAZORBEAKS IN THAT LEE SIN CLIP?) So wait.. jungle buffs are gone and they're only in the randomized plants now? I don't know how to feel about this... there better be a global indicator for knowing their spawn points cause If i'm sweeping dragon and they just so happen to have a vision plant, thats going to be such bullshit to get cheesed by and lose drag to. These give game advantages randomly, its not an objective you just "secure when you can" they're just there like bard's chimes.. they either fuck you sideways spawning in the dumbest places leading to death or help you out a ton. I'm still confused with how smite works now and what jungle buffs are still there for smiting camps. Is everything the same but with these plants?
> So wait.. jungle buffs are gone and they're only in the randomized plants now? Not really. The jungle buffs are gone - but the plants don't do 1:1 what the jungle buffs used to do - some of them have a little bit of overlap - but there's no direct parallels. > I'm still confused with how smite works now and what jungle buffs are still there for smiting camps. Is everything the same but with these plants? There are no additional rewards to smiting jungle monsters outside of the additional damage. Smite also innately heals you when used against (only) monsters to replicate some of the play making potential and to regulate jungler health and uptime across Jungle classes a bit better. > These give game advantages randomly, its not an objective you just "secure when you can" they're just there like bard's chimes.. they either fuck you sideways spawning in the dumbest places leading to death or help you out a ton. I can tell you that the location of each type of plant is fairly heavily curated - so it's not like you'll get random satchel plants chilling in the middle of nowhere. While I can understand that randomness is jarring - where each plant spawns makes much more contextual sense (Satchel has some dedicated wall jump spots, for example) - they're far less random in world placement Bard's chimes in that respect.
: Excuse me? Are those FIVE small chickens I see in one camp?
: Not sure that there is a lot of value added for this change. This could easily result in some very frustrating outcomes depending on the placement of the plants, and frankly is a little too RNG. Plus, I can imagine it getting really annoying to have that healing plant pop up near bot lane and allowing someone to heal up from your poke.
While I'm not working personally on the spawn system - I can tell you that the people involved are keenly aware of this facet. Currently, the first set of plants spawn relatively late in the game - and initial spawn positions are more or less fixed - so the first set of plant locations are more or less deterministic - which makes the initial wave contestable to a point. The respawn time between plant waves varies a bit between contests - but the second wave of plants happens towards the tail end of laning phase and the seeded river locations are fairly 'deep' in the river in the early parts of the game so if they do this tactic, you'll also have time to head them off - unless you're not in the area at all - in which case it's similar to an uncontested champion using minions or scuttle to heal back via a type of drain. Agreed that curation of plant location is pretty important - satchels, for example, are kind of pointless if there aren't interesting jumps - so there's a handful of optimal seeded locations where plants can spawn.
: My issue is taking smite buffs away is going to cripple some champion's clears. Sejuani, for instance, the thought of smiting red buff not giving health doesn't make me feel particularly good.
The specific instance that you've listed is mostly mitigated by the fact that Smite will innately return health if used against a Monster now equal to 100 + 10% max hp, as listed above.
: Well, can you please tackle that problem at the root, then? Making him use items less well?
I'm not sure it's just Lucian at this point in the game anymore - however. When I say Caitlyn / Vayne / Lucian have single handedly gotten their class nerfed - it's closer to saying they were the first incarnations of a new pattern of ADCs - and therefore what it meant to be an ADC definitionally changed. For example, Graves shared many properties with Vayne - however, the adjustments around Vayne have allowed Graves to exist. If Graves had been released before Vayne - I'd be saying that Graves nerfed the entire class of ADCs instead. Unsure if Lucian is an outlier at this point - or whether or not he's just foreshadowing problems that will come with like Jinx or something. Too early for me to tell - I have extremely limited experience in the ADC space.
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Xypherous

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