: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0035000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-26T20:59:57.120+0000) > > Yeah I don't know really at this point. They should just give everyone a mana bar and call it a day. No-Secondary-bar/Energy players need to learn the importance of secondary bar management. Like the fact that Dirk gives lethality, bonus damage, and flat damage to champions who don't need to worry about mana pretty much get that early lane secure. All they need afterwards is a Merc Treads or a Hexdrinker and it's flatout gg. Later on they'll build a Mercurial Scimitar/Edge of Night and/or Guardians Angel. If they're fighting a mage with low cooldowns now they can build an Adaptive Helm on top of that. Meanwhile mages have had Zhonya, Banshees, and Seraphs probably since season 1. Of those 3 I feel like only Banshees has been most protection-efficient. Seraphs takes way too long to create for earlygame and Zhonyas baits the buyer into dying anyways because everyone knows the duration of the stasis in high elo. If they gave everyone a mana bar, would'nt they be forced to also put mana onto assassin items or mana into more AD items for champions like Riven and Rengar/renekton? making them more cost efficient, but also ruining many champions in the process?
> [{quoted}](name=L9 Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00350000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-04T03:13:21.539+0000) > > If they gave everyone a mana bar, would'nt they be forced to also put mana onto assassin items or mana into more AD items for champions like Riven and Rengar/renekton? > making them more cost efficient, but also ruining many champions in the process? true true lol I forgot about the item compensation as well
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-25T04:51:52.419+0000) > > I mean I've tried Zed out before I won't say he's easy or anything, but at the same time I still think lethality is way too effective early on vs any armor I buy. I just don't even buy armor anymore because everytime I've built zhonya's vs Zed/Yasuo/Talon with lethality they just get right through it as if I had none to begin with. I can usually dodge his shurikens it's mostly when he uses his shadow pointblank on top of me is when I have a problem. Like one time I went to go heal from being poked and went back to lane and immediately got poked from 100 to 50 just because he can put the shadow on top of you. Yes I should've probably not went for the wave I was about to miss from backing, but that would gurantee he gets an exp/gold lead just from zoning me with his shadow up. It's a lose-lose Hey man, I'm sorry for being rude in that comment. I wasn't in a good mood. Yes, its true that once they have full lethality build, they will start one shotting people unless you prioritize armor over damage. I got a full build and couldn't shred a tank (duh) I'll try to give you out some advice to help you play against them: - Maybe abuse them early game? Poke them a lot. Bully them. - Try not to be alone. Some assassins like Kha'Zix are made to one shot squishies that are alone (applies to all assassins maybe...) - If you think you can still survive, then use your stopwatch/zhonyas. - You don't have to kill them. Just survive. If they are missing then ping lane or say it in chat. Better not risk your life to feed them. - CC. Obviously this is a counter to everything but since (most) assassins are squishy, their life can be over once they are CC'ed - Stay and stick together. Good to stay near an ally that can kill assassins. - Play champs that counters assassins. Fizz is an example Other than that, I'm not sure. Many people do hate lethality, even I also hate it when playing certain champions. I also hope Riot somehow does something to it to make people stop complaining about it, while also making assassin mains satisfied.
> [{quoted}](name=l love Ahri,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T16:19:16.272+0000) > > Hey man, I'm sorry for being rude in that comment. I wasn't in a good mood. > > Yes, its true that once they have full lethality build, they will start one shotting people unless you prioritize armor over damage. I got a full build and couldn't shred a tank (duh) > > I'll try to give you out some advice to help you play against them: > - Maybe abuse them early game? Poke them a lot. Bully them. > - Try not to be alone. Some assassins like Kha'Zix are made to one shot squishies that are alone (applies to all assassins maybe...) > - If you think you can still survive, then use your stopwatch/zhonyas. > - You don't have to kill them. Just survive. If they are missing then ping lane or say it in chat. Better not risk your life to feed them. > - CC. Obviously this is a counter to everything but since (most) assassins are squishy, their life can be over once they are CC'ed > - Stay and stick together. Good to stay near an ally that can kill assassins. > - Play champs that counters assassins. Fizz is an example > > Other than that, I'm not sure. Many people do hate lethality, even I also hate it when playing certain champions. I also hope Riot somehow does something to it to make people stop complaining about it, while also making assassin mains satisfied. It's all good lol everyone has off days. Clearly mine gets me banned. I try to abuse them early, in low to mid elo it's fairly easy because of the lack of positioning those assassins have. In high elo however people aren't going to just let you attack them for free. They grow a brain and actually play it safe early and if they see me try to poke them when they go to last hit they try to juke it by faking to go in for the last hit. Also incredibly difficult to harass early when Zed goes 3 hp potions longsword, it pretty much gurantees he hits 6 unless I end up forcing trades constantly pre-6 which isn't ideal or efficient in terms of risk vs reward. Then you have Yasuo who has the built-in shield which pretty much makes his 1 doran blade + 1 hp potion to be more sustain vs a 3 corruption potion mage or even vs. a dorans ring 2 potion build. Zhonyas stasis is so easily predictable and time-able in high elo. It's not as consistent in saving the buyers life. In low to mid elo it works either because enemy forgets you have the active or just flat out can't time the duration of the stasis. CC is good if it's a point and click (I personally use Veigar wall to zone/force the enemy to play a certain way rather than it landing stuns 100% of the time). Pre-6 it works if I trap Zed in this, post-6 Zed just uses ulti to i-frame out of it if I use it early for my jungler to followup on. Fizz is almost always banned. I get more results from Veigar anyway because in the end of the day it's about playing what you're comfortable with and not playing 1rst time new champion on the sole basis of counterpicking. In high elo I feel like I'm pressured to kill them mostly because the game sense is extremely high on both ends. If I play passive vs an assassin theyll just roam botlane or catch out the greedy random junglers I get. Sure I can avoid him and get a few towers when he's not in lane but ultimately this also means they're guranteed to snowball if my randoms don't know how to fight him. The joke here is that I don't even ban Zed/Yasuo for myself anymore. I literally ban them because my randoms don't know how to deal with it. Lately I ban Fizz/Kass mostly because I value those to be the real counters to Veigar more than Zed/Yasuo.
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00390000,timestamp=2018-09-28T09:01:40.940+0000) > > I can't build all these earlygame lol, the damage is already done by the time these items are completed. The main focus for this post is earlygame mostly because everytime I build Seekers and Zhonyas it brings in disappointing results. Just build {{item:3010}} first. Trust me, I know what counters my own champion. People say "Just stack armor against lethality/armor pen", theyre not right. Stack health items and like 1 armor item, can be Zhonyas/tabis/an actual tank item.
> [{quoted}](name=JAYYYYYYYYYYYYCE,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=003900000001,timestamp=2018-09-28T09:34:51.622+0000) > > Just build {{item:3010}} first. Trust me, I know what counters my own champion. People say "Just stack armor against lethality/armor pen", theyre not right. Stack health items and like 1 armor item, can be Zhonyas/tabis/an actual tank item. I'll try it out I suppose. Sometimes I need that Luden splash on mobs to jump onto Yasuo so I can destroy his shield though. Luden splash on minions to champion also procs the Boneplating Rune so it lets me prepare for my real trade. It's going to be a bit tougher without that I guess.
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00390000,timestamp=2018-09-28T09:01:40.940+0000) > > I can't build all these earlygame lol, the damage is already done by the time these items are completed. The main focus for this post is earlygame mostly because everytime I build Seekers and Zhonyas it brings in disappointing results. To be fair he's right. Health really screws them over more than zhonya's. RoA gives 500 health when fully stacked, and you get some sustain with it. I'd rush this over ludens vs assassins. They can negate your armor a bit but they can't lower your health unless they build bork, and that's not super beneficial to them. Sadly I can't use RoA playing Kat, so I have to stick to hoping I can burst them before they can burst me. Lucky for me Oblivion Orb gives 200 health so I'm not **completely** out of building health.
> [{quoted}](name=VoraciousX,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=003900000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T09:28:34.491+0000) > > To be fair he's right. Health really screws them over more than zhonya's. RoA gives 500 health when fully stacked, and you get some sustain with it. I'd rush this over ludens vs assassins. They can negate your armor a bit but they can't lower your health unless they build bork, and that's not super beneficial to them. Sadly I can't use RoA playing Kat, so I have to stick to hoping I can burst them before they can burst me. Lucky for me Oblivion Orb gives 200 health so I'm not **completely** out of building health. I could try Rod of Ages again I suppose. I used to build this a lot on Karthus back in Season 3-5. The thing is it gives 500 health when fully stacked as you said, but the Dirk vs Seeker is around 1100g (the ideal time for mages to go back because they go manadry by then vs a resourceless champion). I could get {{item:3010}} but now I have no magic pen or damage. My jungler is probably going to get caught at this part of the game and when they die because I didn't have the damage to finish off the target he's going to spam ping my Catalyst lol. Part of my climbing has been purely from following up on randoms who get caught and converting their mistake into a beneficial bait for our own team. I'm not sure if I'll be as useful with a catalyst.
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00370000,timestamp=2018-09-28T08:55:46.951+0000) > > Even if all of that is true on paper, the reality with champion trades in game shows otherwise. Like honestly you'd have to be an actual tank with fullout tank runes and tank passive bonuses from champion kit for lethality to be irrelevant. Mages who build Seeker into Serrated Dirk still get severely cucked by it. Like congrats you negated 10% damage from that Zed combo. Instead of being 100 to 50'd in one electrocute combo, you were 100 to 60'd. Now with your current hp are you still willing to stay in lane with that damage negated? > > And honestly if I had to choose between a Duskblade that allows instant ward/trap clearing on an AD offensive item or a Zhonyas that pretty much gurantees the buyer will die immediately out of stasis in high elo (everyone in high elo knows how to time the stasis and prefire skillshots accordingly), I'm pretty sure people would pick Duskblade. Maybe you'll have a better time in lane if you actually damage them back instead, because your scenario basically paints it out that you're just taking free damage without doing anything back. Also maybe consider picking up another champ besides Veigar for Zed if he's tilting you to the point of getting your accounts locked. He's a very clear counter.
> [{quoted}](name=Daddy Issues,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=003700000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T09:13:31.198+0000) > > Maybe you'll have a better time in lane if you actually damage them back instead, because your scenario basically paints it out that you're just taking free damage without doing anything back. Also maybe consider picking up another champ besides Veigar for Zed if he's tilting you to the point of getting your accounts locked. He's a very clear counter. I do try to capitalize on them after they use Shadow to poke me directly under tower. It's kind of a meme to try and capitalize on Shadow once he hits level 6 though because he can just use his Ultimate as an invincibility frame to counter your followup on his shadow trade.
: Actually the reason why Zhonya's does nothing to lethality is because before lethality it had a lot more armor, and when it was nerfed to be barely any armor because it's active was so powerful and "we're nerfing it because it's a must on every AP users", it wasn't absolute trash to rush against assassins pre-lethality. Now that assassins have lethality the armor means nothing because it's so little. Especially after Riot flipped their whole "scale up into late game" formula so that assassins actually start with 60% lethality instead of 40%, and have buffed the stat itself since then. But honestly, lethality is an even BIGGER middle finger to AP assassins. We're all stuck building mage items because we don't have a real core item. Sure you could consider gunblade a core item on a few AP assassins, but honestly it's not any worse on anyone else. Most of the time I find myself rushing a bunch of components early so that I can actually do some meaningful damage with my abilities instead of paying for the full price of gunblade because the AD components just aren't as useful and the AD component + the completion price is way over half the item in cost. I'd rather just rush {{item:3145}} {{item:3916}} {{item:3020}} and have the pen of a lethality user earlier and actually do damage than be weak until I complete gunblade. > [{quoted}](name=Daddy Issues,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0037,timestamp=2018-09-28T08:40:57.880+0000) > > ITT: People who don't understand the concept that armor is cheaper than lethality while lethality scales with levels to its listed value and also that champions have higher base armor than mr due to growth per level. Seeker's armguard costs the exact same as serrated dirk. Assassins actually have 7 pen at level 6 with serrated dirk, that's only 3 lethality less. They also get 7 from sudden impact. That's 14 armor pen, which is almost half of seeker's armguard. The armor doesn't do as much as you think.
> [{quoted}](name=VoraciousX,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0038,timestamp=2018-09-28T08:52:36.345+0000) > > Actually the reason why Zhonya's does nothing to lethality is because before lethality it had a lot more armor, and when it was nerfed to be barely any armor because it's active was so powerful and "we're nerfing it because it's a must on every AP users", it wasn't absolute trash to rush against assassins pre-lethality. Now that assassins have lethality the armor means nothing because it's so little. Especially after Riot flipped their whole "scale up into late game" formula so that assassins actually start with 60% lethality instead of 40%, and have buffed the stat itself since then. > > But honestly, lethality is an even BIGGER middle finger to AP assassins. We're all stuck building mage items because we don't have a real core item. Sure you could consider gunblade a core item on a few AP assassins, but honestly it's not any worse on anyone else. Most of the time I find myself rushing a bunch of components early so that I can actually do some meaningful damage with my abilities instead of paying for the full price of gunblade because the AD components just aren't as useful and the AD component + the completion price is way over half the item in cost. I'd rather just rush {{item:3145}} {{item:3916}} {{item:3020}} and have the pen of a lethality user earlier and actually do damage than be weak until I complete gunblade. > > > Seeker's armguard costs the exact same as serrated dirk. Assassins actually have 7 pen at level 6 with serrated dirk, that's only 3 lethality less. They also get 7 from sudden impact. That's 14 armor pen, which is almost half of seeker's armguard. The armor doesn't do as much as you think. I completely forgot about Sudden Impact. Thank you for bringing that up! I actually knew I was forgetting something. I added your comment to the main post since it had the additional information I couldn't provide earlier. {{sticker:vlad-salute}}
: If you really wanna fuck lethality players over, stack health. {{item:3027}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3152}} All these items work very well against lethality users, coming from a lethality user myself. Get 1 cloth armor, then get whatever health AP item you want, then finish ninja tabis.
> [{quoted}](name=JAYYYYYYYYYYYYCE,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0039,timestamp=2018-09-28T08:57:21.422+0000) > > If you really wanna fuck lethality players over, stack health. > > {{item:3027}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3152}} > > All these items work very well against lethality users, coming from a lethality user myself. Get 1 cloth armor, then get whatever health AP item you want, then finish ninja tabis. I can't build all these earlygame lol, the damage is already done by the time these items are completed. The main focus for this post is earlygame mostly because everytime I build Seekers and Zhonyas it brings in disappointing results.
: > [{quoted}](name=L9 Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001600010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-26T12:39:15.462+0000) > > But werent we comparing assassins? > how often is say a Zed or Talon, going to Rely on just autoing you to death, we're tlaking about abilities, scaling of those abilities, and items. > not who can right click who the hardest, then Yi, shyv, and nocturne would be in the conversation, and other items like bloodrazor and botrk. and we would be using attack speed in item stats for comparing, not lethality. like this whole discussion is for. *facepalm* what we are currently discussing (in this argument) is that ads have their 100% aa's in addition to their abilities. However unlike mages, assassins (and ad focused champs) still have their aa to threaten someone (dmg wise).
> [{quoted}](name=VanaQuish,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0016000100010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-26T16:29:43.430+0000) > > *facepalm* what we are currently discussing (in this argument) is that ads have their 100% aa's in addition to their abilities. However unlike mages, assassins (and ad focused champs) still have their aa to threaten someone (dmg wise). Level 1 Karthus autoattacks are probably less than that of a minion lol. I've always found it humorous when Zed and a Mage both are equally skilled and both end up burning all their spells and abilities and fight toe to toe under 300 health left on both...except the mage is doing like 50 damage per auto and the yasuo/zed/talon doing like 100+ per auto, probably lifestealing as well from dorans blade if they built it, or potentially att speed/lifesteal from yellow/red runes.
: ITT: People who don't understand the concept that armor is cheaper than lethality while lethality scales with levels to its listed value and also that champions have higher base armor than mr due to growth per level.
> [{quoted}](name=Daddy Issues,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0037,timestamp=2018-09-28T08:40:57.880+0000) > > ITT: People who don't understand the concept that armor is cheaper than lethality while lethality scales with levels to its listed value and also that champions have higher base armor than mr due to growth per level. Even if all of that is true on paper, the reality with champion trades in game shows otherwise. Like honestly you'd have to be an actual tank with fullout tank runes and tank passive bonuses from champion kit for lethality to be irrelevant. Mages who build Seeker into Serrated Dirk still get severely cucked by it. Like congrats you negated 10% damage from that Zed combo. Instead of being 100 to 50'd in one electrocute combo, you were 100 to 60'd. Now with your current hp are you still willing to stay in lane with that damage negated? And honestly if I had to choose between a Duskblade that allows instant ward/trap clearing on an AD offensive item or a Zhonyas that pretty much gurantees the buyer will die immediately out of stasis in high elo (everyone in high elo knows how to time the stasis and prefire skillshots accordingly), I'm pretty sure people would pick Duskblade.
ZaFishbone (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002900000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T08:00:26.962+0000) > > Hint: You're _totally_ not being the exact thing you are trying to ridicule at this very moment. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) > > _Whatever helps you sleep at night though I suppose._ Although I do enjoy when hecklers dig their own grave on the forums so do please continue replying. I'm sure both the community and myself enjoy this thoroughly as you try ever so poorly to whiteknight on the internet. I am not trying to whiteknight. I am trying to put up a "beware trash" sign.
> [{quoted}](name=ZaFishbone,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0029000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-09-28T08:33:24.727+0000) > > I am not trying to whiteknight. I am trying to put up a "beware trash" sign. I respect that :^) maybe _someday_ they'll hire you to moderate the forums. https://i.redd.it/mz7fl6lp79uz.jpg
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002900000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T08:00:26.962+0000) > > Hint: You're _totally_ not being the exact thing you are trying to ridicule at this very moment. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) > > _Whatever helps you sleep at night though I suppose._ Although I do enjoy when hecklers dig their own grave on the forums so do please continue replying. I'm sure both the community and myself enjoy this thoroughly as you try ever so poorly to whiteknight on the internet. Leave that poor teenager alone bruh LOL he neeeeeed sum milk
> [{quoted}](name=WolfmanSAU,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0029000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T08:12:39.466+0000) > > Leave that poor teenager alone bruh LOL he neeeeeed sum milk https://ubisafe.org/images/pepe-transparent-laugh-3.png
ZaFishbone (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0029000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-27T21:03:42.018+0000) > > An eye for an eye makes the world blind. I'll let that one sink in for a while my friend. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) What eye for an eye are you talking about? Are you even trying to make sense? You haven't done anything to me personally so this can't be any kind of revenge. I'm only pointing out your hypocrisy in an public medium, so that other people can learn the difference between being a toxic hypocrite and actually making valid complaints in a polite manner. Hint: you aren't second type of person.
> [{quoted}](name=ZaFishbone,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00290000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T07:29:02.615+0000) > > What eye for an eye are you talking about? Are you even trying to make sense? You haven't done anything to me personally so this can't be any kind of revenge. I'm only pointing out your hypocrisy in an public medium, so that other people can learn the difference between being a toxic hypocrite and actually making valid complaints in a polite manner. Hint: you aren't second type of person. Hint: You're _totally_ not being the exact thing you are trying to ridicule at this very moment. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) _Whatever helps you sleep at night though I suppose._ Although I do enjoy when hecklers dig their own grave on the forums so do please continue replying. I'm sure both the community and myself enjoy this thoroughly as you try ever so poorly to whiteknight on the internet.
ZaFishbone (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00290000,timestamp=2018-09-25T22:42:25.177+0000) > > ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cared enough to type here. Who knows maybe there's a first for everything. I care about pointing out that you are a toxic hypocrite who should first learn to have basic respect for his peers, before trying to educate them.
> [{quoted}](name=ZaFishbone,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002900000000,timestamp=2018-09-27T07:42:41.022+0000) > > I care about pointing out that you are a toxic hypocrite who should first learn to have basic respect for his peers, before trying to educate them. An eye for an eye makes the world blind. I'll let that one sink in for a while my friend. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00350000,timestamp=2018-09-26T20:18:19.447+0000) > > Maybe lol No sweat dude, you make some very good points. its arguments like this are why i like the boards. hell yeah
> [{quoted}](name=L9 Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=003500000000,timestamp=2018-09-26T20:51:38.483+0000) > > No sweat dude, you make some very good points. its arguments like this are why i like the boards. hell yeah Yeah I don't know really at this point. They should just give everyone a mana bar and call it a day. No-Secondary-bar/Energy players need to learn the importance of secondary bar management. Like the fact that Dirk gives lethality, bonus damage, and flat damage to champions who don't need to worry about mana pretty much get that early lane secure. All they need afterwards is a Merc Treads or a Hexdrinker and it's flatout gg. Later on they'll build a Mercurial Scimitar/Edge of Night and/or Guardians Angel. If they're fighting a mage with low cooldowns now they can build an Adaptive Helm on top of that. Meanwhile mages have had Zhonya, Banshees, and Seraphs probably since season 1. Of those 3 I feel like only Banshees has been most protection-efficient. Seraphs takes way too long to create for earlygame and Zhonyas baits the buyer into dying anyways because everyone knows the duration of the stasis in high elo.
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002d0000,timestamp=2018-09-25T21:03:42.630+0000) > > Nope I'm pretty sure this isn't an overreaction. This result is from years of patience finally snapping recently. I will say I've won this matchup many times so it's not like I don't know how to fight Zed as Veigar. I've fought Zed vs Veigar probably since back in Season 3 when he came out. This matchup is way too common for me to not know it. > > Yes I'm very aware of Veigar's earlygame being weak. That's already a given. I'm not sure what you think of me, probably would be solved if you decided not to blatantly ignore the stats _" I'm not gonna check your division to see what capabilities you have as a player of understand the game"_. It's not like I'm trying to actively try and trade Zed. I know this matchup extremely well enough to know when to avoid, where to land my stuns, when to Zhonya's, etc. The whole arguement is about the effectiveness of dirk vs seeker (Duskblade vs Zhonya later on). > > Again I'd like to remind you that life isn't always about the cold numbers on paper. Reality usually depicts a different story. While it may seem good on paper, it may not reflect in game. This is one of those common cases. People may argue yeah it's only a _small_ amount of lethality vs. the WOW AMAZING amount of armor from seeker, but the reality is BEFORE DIRK/ARMOR: Wow mage just got 100 to 50'd in one combo + electrocute...and AFTER DIRK/ARMOR: wow mage just got 100 to 55'd in one combo. > > Like I understand that lethality's purpose IS to shred armor, but that early into the game it really REALLY fucks over mages even when they build Zhonya and Ninja Tabi it still makes it feel like they bought nothing to begin with. I'm sure on paper it looks completely normal, but like I said in reality the cold numbers don't purely depict the story. > > > Also if you're going to bring up sorc boots and oblivion orb, understand this: > > Manamages ideally have to go back earlier than energy/no resource assassins like Zed/Yasuo unless they miraculously end up with blue buff. This on average for me ends up anywhere from 700g to 1.3k gold. > > If I'm going back the first time I might be able to get sorc boots, but let's actually be real here for a second, do you actually know any mage who rushes sorc boots 1rst item?? That's troll enough to mention as a viable counter to dirk. > > Oblivion orb is 1500g, If an AD Assassin with no resources went back with 1100g just like the mage, I'm pretty sure the AD assassin would have a fully built {{item:3134}} and the manamage would have this incomplete meme of Oblivion Orb {{item:1052}} {{item:1028}} . > > > Also for the runes EDIT portion, I used to run tanky runes vs Zed but those really didn't help out much. I just gave up on building Zhonya's and tanky runes in general vs. him because everytime I took those it never brought in good results. And this is coming from someone who has been fighting Zed/Yasuo since Season 3 when they came out. It's not some rookie Veigar player who just started the game yesterday. This frustration has a warrant and history of experience behind it. > > Like I said, I generally tend to just get more effective results with Ludens than Zhonyas at this point. It may look good on paper to buy armor into a lethality build, but honestly the results are tilting enough to where I just don't anymore. And I'm pretty sure based on how unsurprisingly popular this post got, other mages can agree with this feeling. > > > > EDIT: > > > Also I feel like everyone who's been making the Item comparison of Seekers vs Dirk has been completely ignoring the Headhunter passive that comes with Dirk. Also the fact that they added a 1-auto ward/trapclearing passive to Duskblade. Literally a vision-control mechanic on an offensive AD item. The manapen argument was targeted for mid-game, after the first item buy on mages, which goes to show how OP manapen is, because even at mid-game, most people don't have more than 35MR. Again, I don't know the exact numbers on Veigar vs Zed, but there is a similar match up that I'm very experienced at, Viktor vs Zed. Both immobile, both have ground-targeted CC, weak early etc. You gotta understand, even if we do accept that there is not enough armor to counterplay Zed, that later in the game, there isn't really anything to counterplay you. Basically, by picking Veigar, you sacrifice your early game, you even accept that you might have to play passive or even be killed, in order to reach a comfortable mid to late game where you can evaporate anyone. Zed on the other hand knows he is strong early and wants to use that to snowball mid game, because he is weaker later. These are things that most people don't take into consideration. Certain champions are just meant to be OP early and overloaded with damage. That's just the reality of it. If Zed was unable to do a lot of damage early, to the point that a 1100 (or 1200?) Seeker's Armguard would 100% nullify him, then what's the point of picking that champion? Imagine a world where Cleanse would remove Suppression. In which world would Malzahar be a champion when just picking Cleanse would nullify him? Teams needs to invest 5x1300 on QSS just to be safe from that champion, which is something that most players can't afford to do. See how these examples relate? There are so many more things in this game rather than the strict "oh, this guy killed me 1v1".
> [{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002d00000000,timestamp=2018-09-26T12:43:49.831+0000) > > The manapen argument was targeted for mid-game, after the first item buy on mages, which goes to show how OP manapen is, because even at mid-game, most people don't have more than 35MR. > > Again, I don't know the exact numbers on Veigar vs Zed, but there is a similar match up that I'm very experienced at, Viktor vs Zed. Both immobile, both have ground-targeted CC, weak early etc. > > You gotta understand, even if we do accept that there is not enough armor to counterplay Zed, that later in the game, there isn't really anything to counterplay you. Basically, by picking Veigar, you sacrifice your early game, you even accept that you might have to play passive or even be killed, in order to reach a comfortable mid to late game where you can evaporate anyone. Zed on the other hand knows he is strong early and wants to use that to snowball mid game, because he is weaker later. > > These are things that most people don't take into consideration. Certain champions are just meant to be OP early and overloaded with damage. That's just the reality of it. If Zed was unable to do a lot of damage early, to the point that a 1100 (or 1200?) Seeker's Armguard would 100% nullify him, then what's the point of picking that champion? Imagine a world where Cleanse would remove Suppression. In which world would Malzahar be a champion when just picking Cleanse would nullify him? Teams needs to invest 5x1300 on QSS just to be safe from that champion, which is something that most players can't afford to do. > > See how these examples relate? There are so many more things in this game rather than the strict "oh, this guy killed me 1v1". Viktor vs Zed is not a similar matchup. Viktor can get a shield anytime Zed tries to trade, on top of that his cc is more reliable to land because it's a field rather than a shape outline like veigar's wall. If Zed was to ulti Veigar he'd actually need to land his wall and be aware of his current position to match up with the lining behind his model. For Viktor you really just throw the field on top of yourself and meme it up once Zed gets out of his ultimate animation. Also magic pen is like that because most mages in general don't have good ratios theoretically so they rely on the base damage compared to AD's who don't as much. As a manamage there's always a sacrifice when purchasing our first item. A. If we buy {{item:3802}} we get mana to sustain trades/followup on helping in roams or champions getting caught in jungle/mirroring waveclear without being forced to go back earlier than usual. B. If we buy {{item:3916}} (assuming we even get 1500g before running out of mana, on average most mages ive fought in plat/diamond and myself usually run out by 800 to 1100 gold on first b if we trade even). We get no mana or armor out of it. C. If we buy {{item:3191}} (here comes my tilt factor), you get no pen and no mana. The lethality + the bonus damage proc from Dirk passive combined with electrocute makes it so it's literally as if you had no armor. Now on top of that you have no mana as well and no pen so pretty much you got cucked for buying the _theoretically good_ item to buy vs that matchup. --------------------------------------------------- Now let's look at Serrated Dirk {{item:3134}} : You get damage, lethality, and a bonus damage passive. On top of that the champions that buy this are non-mana so they don't need to worry about that unnecessary extra factor of resource management. Really looking at any potential sacrifice the player took by purchasing this item is Magic Resist at that point which they'll probably get with Hexdrinker or Merc Treads which offers Tenacity on top of all that. What more could they possibly need. Oh right Duskblade also gives you instant ward/trap clearing so basically it's giving you early vision control as well on top of the pink wards and normal wards you place. Also that's the thing though, you may argue that Zed will fall off later on when you buy more armor but, the fact of the matter is if the game is so heavily in favor of lethality early game, in high elo most of the times the games end earlier and are almost guranteed in one teams favor within that first 10 minutes. Even if you do VeigarV2's challenger armor build vs Zed, sure now you have well over 150+ armor and ninja tabi's but the sacrifice in damage and mana are HUGE. Also at that point Zed could just build a Black Cleaver and shred it down anyways. Basically unless you build this vs a full 5 ad comp, you're going to just get roflstomped by the rest of his teammates later in the game, by which at that point Zed can probably still ulti the ADC, because let's be real... how often do you see ADC's build any defensive items in plat. I usually don't see that unless it's like mid to high diamond+ where good adc's actually build an early GA or QSS (which by the way no longer works on Zed ulti anyway) Yes, I'm aware everyone makes mistakes and both teams _can_ throw, but honestly I've had games where I dumpster Zed before first back and get a huge gold lead and still they end up doing similar or more damage once they buy the Serrated Dirk WHILE they're behind. Like to put it in perspective, I've had games where Zed goes like 0-4 to me in lane and then still roflstomps with Duskblade right through my Zhonya's purchase. I've never been satisfied with building Zhonyas, literally only in low to mid elo because people don't know how to time the zhonya duration or they completely forget you have the active. In high elo everyone knows how to time the duration and prefire skillshots once its over. On paper it seems like a great item, but in reality its probably one of the top causes for mages deaths in high elo. Also I'm not asking for Seeker's to 100% nullify Zed. What I'm saying is without the armor he can 100 to 50 in one trade, and WITH the seekers he still does like 100 to 55 or 60 anyways. Seekers/Zhonyas has not only brought me disappointment but I'm pretty sure based on how viral this post went other mages can also agree how unreliable and ineffective it is overall, despite the glorious paper numbers.
: maybe YOU, but i believe this started with items and champion rolls for those items.{{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}}
> [{quoted}](name=L9 Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0035,timestamp=2018-09-26T17:03:31.225+0000) > > maybe YOU, but i believe this started with items and champion rolls for those items.{{sticker:zombie-brand-clap}} Maybe lol
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-09-24T15:12:02.513+0000) > > Except it isn't because lethality goes right through it. No it doesn't. {{item:3191}} is 30 armor without the passive effect. 45 armor when the passive is stacked. Let's say a game went on until you hit level 16 and you upgraded your Seeker's to a Zhonya's. Zhonya's has 45 armor. At level 16 {{item:3147}} ignores 20.07 armor. At level 16 {{item:3142}} ignores 17.02 armor. At level 16 {{item:3814}} ignores 17.02 armor. **The Armor on Zhonya's alone actually negates the lethality on 2.5 items at level 16** Add a {{item:3047}} along side the {{item:3157}} and you have enough armor to completely nullify the lethality on all 3 available lethality items. {{item:3147}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3814}} = 8900 gold. {{item:3047}} {{item:3157}} - 4000 gold. XD Armor useless vs Lethality. /s
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=000400000002,timestamp=2018-09-26T15:26:36.439+0000) > > No it doesn't. > > > {{item:3191}} is 30 armor without the passive effect. 45 armor when the passive is stacked. > > Let's say a game went on until you hit level 16 and you upgraded your Seeker's to a Zhonya's. > > Zhonya's has 45 armor. > > > At level 16 {{item:3147}} ignores 20.07 armor. > At level 16 {{item:3142}} ignores 17.02 armor. > At level 16 {{item:3814}} ignores 17.02 armor. > > > **The Armor on Zhonya's alone actually negates the lethality on 2.5 items at level 16** > > > Add a {{item:3047}} along side the {{item:3157}} and you have enough armor to completely nullify the lethality on all 3 available lethality items. > > > > {{item:3147}} {{item:3142}} {{item:3814}} = 8900 gold. > > {{item:3047}} {{item:3157}} - 4000 gold. > > > > XD Armor useless vs Lethality. > > /s We're not comparing mid to lategame in this post. The whole problem is it being too effective early on even when mages may have the lead and buy Seekers, in high elo pretty much these early spikes make it ridiculously easy to gain and juggle a snowball. Also Serrated Dirk has a bonus passive damage on top of the lethality and AD that nobody wants to ever mention or calculate in on top of the Electrocute trades.
: i agree with you on everything except the claim that Zhonya's active is worth anything at all, that trash active gets most users killed when used as many times as when not used, you know why? because nothing stops the Zed who's ult you just denied from nuking you after the stasis is over, and worst part is this item is the sole excuse for mages to not have a decent defensive/offensive item against AD meanwhile AD champions have these BS items to protect them {{item:3156}} {{item:3139}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3026}} and soon to come {{item:3161}} {{item:3005}}
> [{quoted}](name=Drakath2002,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-24T14:33:09.499+0000) > > i agree with you on everything except the claim that Zhonya's active is worth anything at all, that trash active gets most users killed when used as many times as when not used, you know why? because nothing stops the Zed who's ult you just denied from nuking you after the stasis is over, and worst part is this item is the sole excuse for mages to not have a decent defensive/offensive item against AD > > meanwhile AD champions have these BS items to protect them > > {{item:3156}} {{item:3139}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3026}} > > and soon to come > > {{item:3161}} {{item:3005}} {{item:3814}} don't forget this too :^)
: fukk riot as a whole they create the bad attitude by cheating for their favored pussy champs as i call them and been banned for as well i can remember when this game was fair and about skill now its about who can play the cheapest champ. so you get pissed then get banned and now i've moved on to smite and other games send riot a message can't fix it. bye bye the game sucks now bye the way funny how cheap assed zed has a bigger bomb at the end of his ult than the fukken bomber champ ziggs see ya at smite
> [{quoted}](name=foamycookies,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0033,timestamp=2018-09-26T03:11:35.048+0000) > > fukk riot as a whole they create the bad attitude by cheating for their favored pussy champs as i call them and been banned for as well i can remember when this game was fair and about skill now its about who can play the cheapest champ. so you get pissed then get banned and now i've moved on to smite and other games send riot a message can't fix it. bye bye the game sucks now bye the way funny how cheap assed zed has a bigger bomb at the end of his ult than the fukken bomber champ ziggs see ya at smite it kinda went downhill when they soldout to TenCent to be honest lol
: you probably deserved it.
> [{quoted}](name=Colonel J,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0032,timestamp=2018-09-26T02:57:37.608+0000) > > you probably deserved it. I never denied it :^)
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00080000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-26T00:20:41.741+0000) > > https://ishouldbewashingclothes.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/miss-the-point.png?w=300&h=300 I cant help but feel that ur posting low quality bait
> [{quoted}](name=Grimspeake,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=000800000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-26T00:23:22.320+0000) > > I cant help but feel that ur posting low quality bait No this is genuinely how I feel actually. What you're telling me to do is build hp on top of zhonya's early game, which implies I have the extra gold for that. This is equivalent to Bernie Sanders offering a solution that requires an imaginary abundance of currency. If both the AD assassin and the manamage go back on 1rst b with 1100g (this usually is the average for manamages when they run out of mana early to a resourceless spammer with no consequences), the AD Assassin will have a full out Serrated Dirk while the mage either gets an incomplete Oblivion Orb (no pen until fully built 1500g), a Seeker's Armguard which gets so shredded by Lethality + the bonus passive the Dirk has that people never mention in any of their arguements so far that its not even worth buying, or as some troll posters have suggested to buy Sorc Boots which offers magic pen but lets be real..who rushes that first?
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=000800000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-25T23:38:52.212+0000) > > Again you're missing the message. > > No champ is 'supposed' to win. I'm not implying Veigar should win early. I'm implying that lethality does way too effective of a job early game. I get it's supposed to cut through armor but given the counter to ad damage _IS_ in fact building armor, building armor vs these lethality rushers has always brought disappointment and personally just building Ludens an item with no defensive stats has brought better results, which is pretty sad to be honest. So your trying to tell me the weakest immobile midlaner in the early game gets shit on by a zed(his hardest counter) once zed got an item...?? Did u try building some hp at all?? Because if u get some of that and a zonyas then well all zed can do is hope to kill the adc
> [{quoted}](name=Grimspeake,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0008000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-26T00:16:55.144+0000) > > So your trying to tell me the weakest immobile midlaner in the early game gets shit on by a zed(his hardest counter) once zed got an item...?? > > Did u try building some hp at all?? Because if u get some of that and a zonyas then well all zed can do is hope to kill the adc https://ishouldbewashingclothes.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/miss-the-point.png?w=300&h=300
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0008000000010000,timestamp=2018-09-25T20:24:30.404+0000) > > Okay so a few things wrong with your sentence. > > 1. They fixed Veigar R, it's based on missing hp% now and not a flat out damage. It's SIGNIFICANTLY weaker if you just press it for no reason on someone. > > 2. If you have 1500 hp mid to lategame you're probably destined to die because that's when mid-lategame champs shine. > > 3. This whole post is about earlygame. It's not about mid to lategame. So pretty much what you're talking about is completely irrelevant to the post and the 7 pages of comments. Please read carefully. So veigar is suppose to win lategame AND early game against zed? Wow i better start playing him
> [{quoted}](name=Grimspeake,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00080000000100000000,timestamp=2018-09-25T23:26:47.989+0000) > > So veigar is suppose to win lategame AND early game against zed? Wow i better start playing him Again you're missing the message. No champ is 'supposed' to win. I'm not implying Veigar should win early. I'm implying that lethality does way too effective of a job early game. I get it's supposed to cut through armor but given the counter to ad damage _IS_ in fact building armor, building armor vs these lethality rushers has always brought disappointment and personally just building Ludens an item with no defensive stats has brought better results, which is pretty sad to be honest.
Malak (NA)
: buying armor doesn't actually work versus someone heavily investing in lethality honestly Imagine if you get hit from 120% of your max hp, and you buy armor to reduce the damage to 105% of your max hp. Wohoo you're still dead Look up the gold efficiency of lethality and armor. They cost about the same. So you buying armor helps, but not enough to matter
> [{quoted}](name=Malak,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0028,timestamp=2018-09-25T06:16:55.649+0000) > > buying armor doesn't actually work versus someone heavily investing in lethality honestly > > Imagine if you get hit from 120% of your max hp, and you buy armor to reduce the damage to 105% of your max hp. Wohoo you're still dead > > Look up the gold efficiency of lethality and armor. They cost about the same. So you buying armor helps, but not enough to matter That's how it feels really. Like all these people argue about how the lethality numbers are correct, but they don't understand that when it translates in game, it's basically not even worth for anyone to buy armor because the results are THAT disappointing.
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-24T15:31:12.509+0000) > > I mean once assassins hit 6 they dont purely farm anyways, they usually tend to roam in high elo. Even if it's not for picks they're constantly half-roaming and coming back to lane to scout out where the jungler is and looking for picks. Also no I've definitely seen Zed players who go 0-10 and still end up out1v1'ing an ADC or mage mid to lategame purely from just pressing R. Unfortunately that still happens to the randoms I play with. > > I still think for how much it cost it's way too effective early game. Buying 1 cloth armor literally does nothing even if the enemy has no lethality. Cloth armor may look like a huge numbers difference early on but when you get 100 to 0'd and wonder why the armor didn't do anything you realize it's just 300g worth of armor. I hope you know that a fully stacked 1300 gold item is enough to mitigate 2 fully built lethality items. Duskblade = 21 lethality, Youmuus = 18 lethality. Meanwhile seekers costs 1300 but gives you 45 armor as well as 35 ap. Keep in mind that the lethality is only in full effect when the champion is level is 18. Now how many games go till level 18 hmm? And you said that lethality is too cost efficient. you can literally get 2 cloth armors with 600 gold while 600 only gets you a single long sword. And considering that you initially get 40% of the lethality and scale with the rest, a dirk with 10 lethality is only really reducing 4 armor from you which isn't even a third of a 300 gold item. Doing the math, A SINGLE 300 gold item provides enough armor to completely negate the lethality of a fully scaled 1100 gold item. Armor is meant to mitigate damage. Not have people like you, play mages be able to completely face tank it. It's like wearing a bullet proof vest and complaining that you're still in pain while having them shoot you over and over. Obviously its gonna hurt. Its only meant to keep you alive. Not make you invulnerable.
> [{quoted}](name=LeDerpinator0320,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00040000000000000001,timestamp=2018-09-25T06:24:19.275+0000) > > I hope you know that a fully stacked 1300 gold item is enough to mitigate 2 fully built lethality items. Duskblade = 21 lethality, Youmuus = 18 lethality. Meanwhile seekers costs 1300 but gives you 45 armor as well as 35 ap. Keep in mind that the lethality is only in full effect when the champion is level is 18. Now how many games go till level 18 hmm? And you said that lethality is too cost efficient. you can literally get 2 cloth armors with 600 gold while 600 only gets you a single long sword. And considering that you initially get 40% of the lethality and scale with the rest, a dirk with 10 lethality is only really reducing 4 armor from you which isn't even a third of a 300 gold item. Doing the math, A SINGLE 300 gold item provides enough armor to completely negate the lethality of a fully scaled 1100 gold item. Armor is meant to mitigate damage. Not have people like you, play mages be able to completely face tank it. It's like wearing a bullet proof vest and complaining that you're still in pain while having them shoot you over and over. Obviously its gonna hurt. Its only meant to keep you alive. Not make you invulnerable. I'm aware that Lethality is meant to mitigate armor. I'm just saying it does way too good of a job early on. For the champions who buy it who have resourceless secondary bars that can easily spam abilities with no consequence, it's a nightmare. On paper these calculations look good, but in reality it still brings in disappointing results. Also everyone who has brought up the Dirk vs Seeker arguement completely ignores the fact that Dirk has a bonus damage passive and Duskblade has an unecessary vision control/anti-trap mechanic attached to it on top of all the other stats for a low low price of 2.9k My point is not about making myself feel invulnerable after buying armor into a lethality rusher. My point is it feels like I wasted money buying an item that gets gutted by lethality and would probably be better off buying Ludens because lethality wont gut the item in half, which is beyond logic and disappointing.
ZaFishbone (EUNE)
: Not sure I should care about the arguments of someone who should have been banned literally right after typing their name in.
> [{quoted}](name=ZaFishbone,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0029,timestamp=2018-09-25T08:39:47.416+0000) > > Not sure I should care about the arguments of someone who should have been banned literally right after typing their name in. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Cared enough to type here. Who knows maybe there's a first for everything.
: The problem that has developed from lethality is this - Players no longer have to choose their moment. How many times have you seen what should be a squishy, careful champion, barrel down on you because he knows he can burst you full to dead in an instant? It doesn't make 1 bit of sense. The fun of a game like this should be in skill and resource management, getting into a fight and using a few rounds of cooldowns and when managed and skillfully used, timed, aimed, should make for a satisfying engagement. All of this, everything fun about this, has been removed. The back and fourth aspect is all but totally gone and rare are the games where team fights even occur anymore. Its a solo players farming race and to see who can blow up towers in 3 shots the quickest. Lets not forget the terrible, horrible addition of stormrazor. What a mistake. You've given the burstiness of a caster to any ad, and for adcs, they now have burst and sustainable damage, so it just further squeezes out the mage. Combine this with the engage, burst combo, and escape of the assassins and you have perfected a total imbalance where.... you do not have to pick your moment. You can just go for it and there is a high chance of success with ease. It just removes all the aforementioned elements that make the game engaging and interesting. The community, and getting banned.. Yeah, it sucks. This is the worst gaming community I've ever played with, and I even saw a few people post that they're done with the Rift. They'll play other modes etc. I've been there before too because well, I don't think the game is legit at all. I also don't think rank accurately represents you as a player, seeing as how I was moving through Silver 1 on my way to Gold when I was bombarded with afks. After playing, and losing 23 in a row, yup, 23, it just seems clear that there are some major inconsistencies in the game. I had an afk on about 18 of those 23 games and dropped all the way to S.5. Simply put, when you have either the constant disconnecting problems that riot so oddly has, or players that are babies and quit, its not an accurate representation of player ability. Neither is a snowballing Yi, or Nasus, that you never fight and they just push and win because the teamwork is never there so the solo players push and win and 9 other people playing are irrelevant because the towers as Kayne put, can just be leaned on and they go down. Riot has masterfully removed fun from the game time and time again. It's now at the point that mobility, lethality, easily beats anything that has a cooldown and resource management. Did you miss that 1 skill once?! Dead. Cool. Fun. Not. Then you go play aram just so you can see what team synergy would be like cause it never happens anymore. Oh, but if there's a Sona you're against you lose, cause she wins like 77% of all Arams no matter what. Just another obvious issue in need of balancing. Keep up the excellent work.
> [{quoted}](name=BonkeyDolls,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002a,timestamp=2018-09-25T09:51:41.133+0000) > > The problem that has developed from lethality is this - Players no longer have to choose their moment. How many times have you seen what should be a squishy, careful champion, barrel down on you because he knows he can burst you full to dead in an instant? It doesn't make 1 bit of sense. > The fun of a game like this should be in skill and resource management, getting into a fight and using a few rounds of cooldowns and when managed and skillfully used, timed, aimed, should make for a satisfying engagement. All of this, everything fun about this, has been removed. The back and fourth aspect is all but totally gone and rare are the games where team fights even occur anymore. Its a solo players farming race and to see who can blow up towers in 3 shots the quickest. Lets not forget the terrible, horrible addition of stormrazor. What a mistake. You've given the burstiness of a caster to any ad, and for adcs, they now have burst and sustainable damage, so it just further squeezes out the mage. Combine this with the engage, burst combo, and escape of the assassins and you have perfected a total imbalance where.... you do not have to pick your moment. You can just go for it and there is a high chance of success with ease. It just removes all the aforementioned elements that make the game engaging and interesting. > The community, and getting banned.. Yeah, it sucks. This is the worst gaming community I've ever played with, and I even saw a few people post that they're done with the Rift. They'll play other modes etc. I've been there before too because well, I don't think the game is legit at all. I also don't think rank accurately represents you as a player, seeing as how I was moving through Silver 1 on my way to Gold when I was bombarded with afks. After playing, and losing 23 in a row, yup, 23, it just seems clear that there are some major inconsistencies in the game. I had an afk on about 18 of those 23 games and dropped all the way to S.5. Simply put, when you have either the constant disconnecting problems that riot so oddly has, or players that are babies and quit, its not an accurate representation of player ability. Neither is a snowballing Yi, or Nasus, that you never fight and they just push and win because the teamwork is never there so the solo players push and win and 9 other people playing are irrelevant because the towers as Kayne put, can just be leaned on and they go down. Riot has masterfully removed fun from the game time and time again. It's now at the point that mobility, lethality, easily beats anything that has a cooldown and resource management. Did you miss that 1 skill once?! Dead. Cool. Fun. Not. Then you go play aram just so you can see what team synergy would be like cause it never happens anymore. Oh, but if there's a Sona you're against you lose, cause she wins like 77% of all Arams no matter what. Just another obvious issue in need of balancing. > Keep up the excellent work. Yeah pretty much.
sobi999 (EUW)
: If mages that predominantly have cc and range get buffed then there will be less flashy plays where assassins can dash across from no-vision to one shot you. There needs to be guinea pigs for the flashy plays of Zed/Leblanc abusers. No matter how correct you are with your statements and as long as eternity, the same issues have been raised and delved into but to no avail. There is no incentive for riot to do anything about this without losing its player base, playing the game for its flashy plays only.
> [{quoted}](name=sobi999,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002b,timestamp=2018-09-25T10:40:17.617+0000) > > If mages that predominantly have cc and range get buffed then there will be less flashy plays where assassins can dash across from no-vision to one shot you. There needs to be guinea pigs for the flashy plays of Zed/Leblanc abusers. > > No matter how correct you are with your statements and as long as eternity, the same issues have been raised and delved into but to no avail. There is no incentive for riot to do anything about this without losing its player base, playing the game for its flashy plays only. Let's not forget when Tank meta was a thing lol, LCS/LCK was pretty much just tanks + warmog item later on and people having wetnoodle fights for an extended 2 minutes.
Jaspers (EUW)
: My only issue with the whole debate is when someone moans about lethality, they are told to build {{item:3191}} to counter it but no AD midlaner builds {{item:3155}} to survive the AP midlaners first item (Unless then are fighting a Fizz). They get to continue building their lethality item.
> [{quoted}](name=Jaspers,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002c,timestamp=2018-09-25T10:45:20.997+0000) > > My only issue with the whole debate is when someone moans about lethality, they are told to build {{item:3191}} to counter it but no AD midlaner builds {{item:3155}} to survive the AP midlaners first item (Unless then are fighting a Fizz). They get to continue building their lethality item. Yeah there is that too. There's been many years of the endless Hexdrinker vs Seeker debates in forums.
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-09-24T14:35:38.717+0000) > > Yeah a lot of times in high elo pretty much everyone knows the timing for Zhonya's Active and they prefire skillshots to hit you the moment the Active ends. It's actually one of the primary reasons of death for mages in high elo overall, giving trust to the Zhonya's reliability. I can tell from the very first sentence that you are toxic. I guarantee if we see the rest of game one, and the remaining games you are just super toxic for no reason. Enjoy making a new account.
> [{quoted}](name=Ulquiorra0123,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2018-09-25T11:54:24.358+0000) > > I can tell from the very first sentence that you are toxic. I guarantee if we see the rest of game one, and the remaining games you are just super toxic for no reason. Enjoy making a new account. Good Call! Also thanks! I look forward to it! {{sticker:vlad-salute}}
: but all you mid lane mages are a huge middle finger to people who don't think that linestun+burst=Fun to play against so it's even stevens
> [{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002e,timestamp=2018-09-25T12:46:12.975+0000) > > but all you mid lane mages are a huge middle finger to people who don't think that linestun+burst=Fun to play against so it's even stevens Troll comment of the year https://media1.tenor.com/images/a20ddd95ed33c6937246c1f37232e519/tenor.gif?itemid=10111909
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2018-09-24T18:11:02.585+0000) > > Okay let's refute: > > > 1. Sorc Boots{{item:3020}} : Same gold as {{item:3134}} Except it's not ideal because it offers no offensive damage like Serrated Dirk. So now as the manamage player, I have no mana items and no damage but a good amount of magic penetration and slightly more movement speed (but it doesn't matter anyways because Zed can still drop a shadow right on top of your body regardless of boot type). We have reached a dead end. > > 2. Morellonomicon{{item:3165}} : Costs 3k gold which is over 1.9k over the Serrated Dirk from earlier. If both the manamage and the AD assassin went back with similar amount of 1100g there's no way the mage could afford this fully built item. This item would take significantly longer to build when it came to the lethality dps race overall. Even then let's compare stats. It has a fair amount of health which would help out vs. towerdives and all-ins. Ideally as a mage you don't want to be building this item unless the enemy comp has significant amount of healing. This is the go-to item for anti-heals like {{champion:103}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:16}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:141}}{{champion:245}} . Unfortunately ithas absolutely no mana so in the end the manamage would end up going back first (unless miraculously obtaining bluebuff from enemy jungler or _kind_jungler), thus losing all of the initial gained pressure from winning any potential trades. Manamage has unfortunately hit another dead end. > > 3. Oblivion Orb{{item:3916}} : Cost 1.5k a little closer to the 1.1k Dirk but still over 400g overboard which means the manamage would have to stay slightly longer in lane to get that gold but ideally from playing I've seen most mages run out of mana around 800g to 1k gold so it would be extremely risky staying in lane last hitting without any mana beyond that point. Overall once again offers no mana vs the resourceless AD assassin who gets to stay in lane once the manamage goes back. Basically the best scenario if both the AD assassin and the mage went back to base with 1100g is, the AD assassin comes back with a fully built {{item:3134}} while the manamage comes back with probably the unfinished meme {{item:1052}} {{item:1028}}. Unfortunately this is another dead end for our mana-mage. > > Thanks for playing! Try again next time! {{sticker:vlad-salute}} yikes delusional mage mains thinking theyre weak in 2018 when will it end
> [{quoted}](name=Scungle,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001100000000,timestamp=2018-09-25T20:36:31.226+0000) > > yikes delusional mage mains thinking theyre weak in 2018 when will it end My rebuttal has concrete support. Your comment has nothing so it's irrelevant. Come back with a concrete counter maybe you'll be taken serious next time.
Snowman Arc (EUNE)
: I think you are seriously overreacting. I'm not gonna check your division to see what capabilities you have as a player of understand the game, but I will analyze this pure Veigar vs Zed match up and tell you why you were and should be stomped. Veigar's early game is trash. TRASH. He can't do anything before level 6, he has no damage, he has high cooldowns and high mana costs, and his CC isn't good in lane. That's the reality, whenever you pick Veigar, you don't expect to have an easy lane. Zed can probably even out push you and has the advantage in 1v1 kill presure. At level 6, Zed still has all the tools to out play you. Don't act like Serrated Dirk is so overpowered though. I don't understand why people attribute their inability to correctly play match ups based on these flawed concepts. Let's assume that Zed got the Dirk at around level 7, at worse. That would grant him 7.5 armor penetration. Assuming you are level 7 as well, at that point you probably already have 40-45 armor (can't be bothered to check), which, with the armor penetration and maybe the Sudden Impact rune, it would go down to 30? These are rough estimates. A single Cloth Armor would give you enough armor value to counter both the item and the rune. 300 gold would counter them both. Seeker's Armguard, with the passive stacking, would also give you a lot of defensive values as well, to the point the Zed's lethality levels would be completely ignored, and you would still have more armor left over. The thing is that people think resistance penetration is overpowered, when, really, it's not. At least when it comes to lethality. Magic penetration is important, because most champions do not gain MR with levels, which is why you see Sorc shoes and Oblivion Orb rushed by a lot of AP users, and is why a lot of mages in the mid lane rush Merc Treads. Lethality isn't the same. You gain armor with levelling up, so you already get more defensive stats by that, and you can also invest into a Seeker's to provide you with extra defence. I main Viktor and I've played vs Zed and I never really had any problems laning against them. Utilizing Barrier / Exhaust is really making the match up pretty easy, and this is coming from a champion who wants to rush his first HexCore upgrade asap. EDIT: I had the curiosity so I checked your match history, and I gotta say, you were WAY TOO DISRESPECTFUL to what Zed can do, based on your runes and opening item. You went with Gathering Storm and Transendence, so basically, for the first 10 minutes+ of the game, you have no runes there. You went into Inspiration for the extra CDRs, which are also almost irrelevant. Instead you could go with Time Warp Tonic and start with Corrupting Potion instead of Doran's Ring and have a huge advantage in lane. Generally, it seems like you don't care about the enemy pick and just pick the same runes / items regardless.
> [{quoted}](name=Snowman Arc,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002d,timestamp=2018-09-25T12:10:02.145+0000) > > I think you are seriously overreacting. I'm not gonna check your division to see what capabilities you have as a player of understand the game, but I will analyze this pure Veigar vs Zed match up and tell you why you were and should be stomped. > > Veigar's early game is trash. TRASH. He can't do anything before level 6, he has no damage, he has high cooldowns and high mana costs, and his CC isn't good in lane. That's the reality, whenever you pick Veigar, you don't expect to have an easy lane. Zed can probably even out push you and has the advantage in 1v1 kill presure. At level 6, Zed still has all the tools to out play you. > > Don't act like Serrated Dirk is so overpowered though. I don't understand why people attribute their inability to correctly play match ups based on these flawed concepts. > > Let's assume that Zed got the Dirk at around level 7, at worse. That would grant him 7.5 armor penetration. Assuming you are level 7 as well, at that point you probably already have 40-45 armor (can't be bothered to check), which, with the armor penetration and maybe the Sudden Impact rune, it would go down to 30? These are rough estimates. > > A single Cloth Armor would give you enough armor value to counter both the item and the rune. 300 gold would counter them both. Seeker's Armguard, with the passive stacking, would also give you a lot of defensive values as well, to the point the Zed's lethality levels would be completely ignored, and you would still have more armor left over. > > The thing is that people think resistance penetration is overpowered, when, really, it's not. At least when it comes to lethality. Magic penetration is important, because most champions do not gain MR with levels, which is why you see Sorc shoes and Oblivion Orb rushed by a lot of AP users, and is why a lot of mages in the mid lane rush Merc Treads. > > Lethality isn't the same. You gain armor with levelling up, so you already get more defensive stats by that, and you can also invest into a Seeker's to provide you with extra defence. > > I main Viktor and I've played vs Zed and I never really had any problems laning against them. Utilizing Barrier / Exhaust is really making the match up pretty easy, and this is coming from a champion who wants to rush his first HexCore upgrade asap. > > EDIT: I had the curiosity so I checked your match history, and I gotta say, you were WAY TOO DISRESPECTFUL to what Zed can do, based on your runes and opening item. You went with Gathering Storm and Transendence, so basically, for the first 10 minutes+ of the game, you have no runes there. You went into Inspiration for the extra CDRs, which are also almost irrelevant. Instead you could go with Time Warp Tonic and start with Corrupting Potion instead of Doran's Ring and have a huge advantage in lane. > > Generally, it seems like you don't care about the enemy pick and just pick the same runes / items regardless. Nope I'm pretty sure this isn't an overreaction. This result is from years of patience finally snapping recently. I will say I've won this matchup many times so it's not like I don't know how to fight Zed as Veigar. I've fought Zed vs Veigar probably since back in Season 3 when he came out. This matchup is way too common for me to not know it. Yes I'm very aware of Veigar's earlygame being weak. That's already a given. I'm not sure what you think of me, probably would be solved if you decided not to blatantly ignore the stats _" I'm not gonna check your division to see what capabilities you have as a player of understand the game"_. It's not like I'm trying to actively try and trade Zed. I know this matchup extremely well enough to know when to avoid, where to land my stuns, when to Zhonya's, etc. The whole arguement is about the effectiveness of dirk vs seeker (Duskblade vs Zhonya later on). Again I'd like to remind you that life isn't always about the cold numbers on paper. Reality usually depicts a different story. While it may seem good on paper, it may not reflect in game. This is one of those common cases. People may argue yeah it's only a _small_ amount of lethality vs. the WOW AMAZING amount of armor from seeker, but the reality is BEFORE DIRK/ARMOR: Wow mage just got 100 to 50'd in one combo + electrocute...and AFTER DIRK/ARMOR: wow mage just got 100 to 55'd in one combo. Like I understand that lethality's purpose IS to shred armor, but that early into the game it really REALLY fucks over mages even when they build Zhonya and Ninja Tabi it still makes it feel like they bought nothing to begin with. I'm sure on paper it looks completely normal, but like I said in reality the cold numbers don't purely depict the story. Also if you're going to bring up sorc boots and oblivion orb, understand this: Manamages ideally have to go back earlier than energy/no resource assassins like Zed/Yasuo unless they miraculously end up with blue buff. This on average for me ends up anywhere from 700g to 1.3k gold. If I'm going back the first time I might be able to get sorc boots, but let's actually be real here for a second, do you actually know any mage who rushes sorc boots 1rst item?? That's troll enough to mention as a viable counter to dirk. Oblivion orb is 1500g, If an AD Assassin with no resources went back with 1100g just like the mage, I'm pretty sure the AD assassin would have a fully built {{item:3134}} and the manamage would have this incomplete meme of Oblivion Orb {{item:1052}} {{item:1028}} . Also for the runes EDIT portion, I used to run tanky runes vs Zed but those really didn't help out much. I just gave up on building Zhonya's and tanky runes in general vs. him because everytime I took those it never brought in good results. And this is coming from someone who has been fighting Zed/Yasuo since Season 3 when they came out. It's not some rookie Veigar player who just started the game yesterday. This frustration has a warrant and history of experience behind it. Like I said, I generally tend to just get more effective results with Ludens than Zhonyas at this point. It may look good on paper to buy armor into a lethality build, but honestly the results are tilting enough to where I just don't anymore. And I'm pretty sure based on how unsurprisingly popular this post got, other mages can agree with this feeling. EDIT: Also I feel like everyone who's been making the Item comparison of Seekers vs Dirk has been completely ignoring the Headhunter passive that comes with Dirk. Also the fact that they added a 1-auto ward/trapclearing passive to Duskblade. Literally a vision-control mechanic on an offensive AD item.
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-09-24T16:08:58.393+0000) > > "if I feed"??? We both were even (and I was even ahead on CS because he was afk first two waves). I died 1 time AFTER I bought zhonya's. You would think after buying Zhonya's it would make it extremely harder for Zed to trade, but nope Lethality makes it so he can just middlefinger my armor and still 100 to 50 after 1 W Q+E combo with Electrocute. Cool and u can press r and 100-0 anyone who doesnt have 1500 hp
> [{quoted}](name=Grimspeake,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=000800000001,timestamp=2018-09-25T15:09:11.921+0000) > > Cool and u can press r and 100-0 anyone who doesnt have 1500 hp Okay so a few things wrong with your sentence. 1. They fixed Veigar R, it's based on missing hp% now and not a flat out damage. It's SIGNIFICANTLY weaker if you just press it for no reason on someone. 2. If you have 1500 hp mid to lategame you're probably destined to die because that's when mid-lategame champs shine. 3. This whole post is about earlygame. It's not about mid to lategame. So pretty much what you're talking about is completely irrelevant to the post and the 7 pages of comments. Please read carefully.
: Pls tell me that this whole post is a single joke. like how incredible stupid are you its making me so sad and so many people with you. yes man lethality is fucking broken especially in early game because it scales (makes sense) i mean getting armor per level plus building seeker which is 150% gold efficent while serrated dirk is 77% gold efficent dude op. zhonyas gives you 45 armor. duskblade and youmuss (5800gold) give you like 38 armor shred ... i mean getting killed from an ASSASSIN (google it if you dont understand what assassins means my low elo friend) especially because zed counters veigar he is just good against you because he can go through ur wall with ult and w is very easily when ur plaiyng bad which i asume watching ur arguments is very easily so just stop talking so much bullshit and stop crying before riot fucktards listen to dumb people like you and all the crying kids in this forum that get frustrated form getting snowballed from assassins like zed and just learn to play like seriously winning against zed is so easy because all in all he is a very bad champ maybe not in ur elo but once u get to play against people with brain as zed u wont have fun at all.
> [{quoted}](name=GetSomeBrainRito,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002f,timestamp=2018-09-25T17:02:57.412+0000) > > Pls tell me that this whole post is a single joke. like how incredible stupid are you its making me so sad and so many people with you. yes man lethality is fucking broken especially in early game because it scales (makes sense) i mean getting armor per level plus building seeker which is 150% gold efficent while serrated dirk is 77% gold efficent dude op. zhonyas gives you 45 armor. duskblade and youmuss (5800gold) give you like 38 armor shred ... i mean getting killed from an ASSASSIN (google it if you dont understand what assassins means my low elo friend) especially because zed counters veigar he is just good against you because he can go through ur wall with ult and w is very easily when ur plaiyng bad which i asume watching ur arguments is very easily so just stop talking so much bullshit and stop crying before riot fucktards listen to dumb people like you and all the crying kids in this forum that get frustrated form getting snowballed from assassins like zed and just learn to play like seriously winning against zed is so easy because all in all he is a very bad champ maybe not in ur elo but once u get to play against people with brain as zed u wont have fun at all. Yikes. Someone had a hard time reading it looks like. https://i.redd.it/kcy8tzzhpe611.jpg Should maybe go back and try reading more carefully.
: Like you said, the right choice was to not do the smart thing and build defenses, just go for the AP build and try to kill him before he kills you And then he builds a Hexdrinker.... I just really fucking hate all the crutches these assassins get, playing smart against them if you are an immobile mage is the stupidest thing you can do right now My last game I went up against a Zed as Sona mid (AP Sona 1 trick) and was shitting on him for the first 5 minutes, made him back early and burn flash Then he hit 1 rotation on me and POOF, there goes my entire advantage because now I cannot go near minions because zed will use one of his many gapclosers to finish me I had to play it stupid so i roamed hard, built my Lichbane and didn't feed Zed as much as I could (I got dived twice, he's really fucking fun to be against) and eventually my team just carried me Zed pisses me off, he is not a skillful champion in my eyes because having 2000 crutches and a fuckton of damage, the game litterally hands him everything, damage, gapclosers, poke, farming ability, roaming ability, INFINITE RESOUCE, items specifically for him fucking easy mode champion, and this comes from a Sona 1 trick
> [{quoted}](name=RedCyclone,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0030,timestamp=2018-09-25T17:07:27.304+0000) > > Like you said, the right choice was to not do the smart thing and build defenses, just go for the AP build and try to kill him before he kills you > > And then he builds a Hexdrinker.... > > I just really fucking hate all the crutches these assassins get, playing smart against them if you are an immobile mage is the stupidest thing you can do right now > My last game I went up against a Zed as Sona mid (AP Sona 1 trick) and was shitting on him for the first 5 minutes, made him back early and burn flash > Then he hit 1 rotation on me and POOF, there goes my entire advantage because now I cannot go near minions because zed will use one of his many gapclosers to finish me > > I had to play it stupid so i roamed hard, built my Lichbane and didn't feed Zed as much as I could (I got dived twice, he's really fucking fun to be against) and eventually my team just carried me > > Zed pisses me off, he is not a skillful champion in my eyes because having 2000 crutches and a fuckton of damage, the game litterally hands him everything, damage, gapclosers, poke, farming ability, roaming ability, INFINITE RESOUCE, items specifically for him > fucking easy mode champion, and this comes from a Sona 1 trick Yeah pretty much lol, I just stopped building Zhonya's vs them because I'm always disappointed with the results. That Zhonya's purchase was pretty much the tilt factor for that game because I knew damn well it wasn't going to help, yet I bought it anyway because _theoretically_ on paper with the numbers and stats it "counters" him but in reality it actually just doesn't.
: armour counters lethality, not the other way around. The closer your are to 0 armour, the higher impact armour and lethality will have (and that’s a fact) at least relative to health and flat AD. Armour brings you farther away from 0, making future sources of lethality and armour both weaker, lethality brings you closer to 0, making future sources of lethality and armour stronger. lethality as a stat is like dead last in the reasons AD Assassins are a pain to deal with as a mage compared to negating 1/3 of your kit with mobility, having stronger roaming potential, needing less mana sustain, undodgeable sources of damage from electrocute, duskblade and ignite, hexdrinker, and more
> [{quoted}](name=TeCoolMage,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0031,timestamp=2018-09-25T17:41:57.069+0000) > > armour counters lethality, not the other way around. The closer your are to 0 armour, the higher impact armour and lethality will have (and that’s a fact) at least relative to health and flat AD. Armour brings you farther away from 0, making future sources of lethality and armour both weaker, lethality brings you closer to 0, making future sources of lethality and armour stronger. > > lethality as a stat is like dead last in the reasons AD Assassins are a pain to deal with as a mage compared to negating 1/3 of your kit with mobility, having stronger roaming potential, needing less mana sustain, undodgeable sources of damage from electrocute, duskblade and ignite, hexdrinker, and more Early game the armor you buy really doesn't do much when they buy lethality. You would think oh I bought armor now my lane will be a little bit easier and I won't have to burn as many pots or go back earlier and let him free roam while I'm gone right? Nope. That early lethality pretty much makes it so you still get hit for a lot and still burn as many pots and go back early.
: Ummmm, guess you weren't around in s6 where lethality was a lot stronger? Lol. Agreed about the state of the game, but meh just don't tilt. It's a game, meant to be fun. I used to hate playing veigar into zed and then my friends forced me into playing tanks top lane vs crap like gnar and teemo. Really it turns out to be the same thing. Just play like a total wuss and give up everything bc you know you outscale and are more useful as soon as they leave you alone for too long. Veigar into zed play safe, farm under tower, don't get greedy for stacks, take a defensive summoner (not tp anymore tho not worth lol), and wait for the zed to get frustrated and ult you under tower then free stun his predictable blink, qw him, r if you arent a level behind, zhonya's if necessary, and... tadaa you just beat zed in about the most unfavorable match up in the game. Tldr: winning scaling match ups involves playing like the proverbial helpless baby and letting the enemy do what they want till they screw up
> [{quoted}](name=Minimac2000,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0027,timestamp=2018-09-25T04:58:37.347+0000) > > Ummmm, guess you weren't around in s6 where lethality was a lot stronger? Lol. Agreed about the state of the game, but meh just don't tilt. It's a game, meant to be fun. I used to hate playing veigar into zed and then my friends forced me into playing tanks top lane vs crap like gnar and teemo. Really it turns out to be the same thing. Just play like a total wuss and give up everything bc you know you outscale and are more useful as soon as they leave you alone for too long. Veigar into zed play safe, farm under tower, don't get greedy for stacks, take a defensive summoner (not tp anymore tho not worth lol), and wait for the zed to get frustrated and ult you under tower then free stun his predictable blink, qw him, r if you arent a level behind, zhonya's if necessary, and... tadaa you just beat zed in about the most unfavorable match up in the game. > Tldr: winning scaling match ups involves playing like the proverbial helpless baby and letting the enemy do what they want till they screw up Oh no I was definitely there in season 6. Part of my hatred towards lethality comes from back then.
Vanic998 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00260000,timestamp=2018-09-25T02:38:44.990+0000) > > they should just make everyone suffer with a mana bar and call it a life https://i.imgflip.com/1ewdzs.jpg Riot is never going to do that. I remember a while ago, riot explained why they have resourceless and energy champions; for the sake of having more different playstyles.
> [{quoted}](name=Vanic998,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=002600000000,timestamp=2018-09-25T02:43:11.380+0000) > > Riot is never going to do that. I remember a while ago, riot explained why they have resourceless and energy champions; for the sake of having more different playstyles. Yeah I remember that explanation as well. It's always been a gray area of topic to be honest. People are on different sides of the fence.
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-09-24T16:08:58.393+0000) > > "if I feed"??? We both were even (and I was even ahead on CS because he was afk first two waves). I died 1 time AFTER I bought zhonya's. You would think after buying Zhonya's it would make it extremely harder for Zed to trade, but nope Lethality makes it so he can just middlefinger my armor and still 100 to 50 after 1 W Q+E combo with Electrocute. "I died to him. Brb gonna complain." I'm glad riot does not listen to their boards because the boards are basically a meme now. Everyone outside this board only laugh at us. Zed is trash as hell. I might be biased since I'm a Zed main but so are you. I not only play Zed but also immobile mages like Malzahar and Vel'Koz. Please man, just try Zed first before complaining about him. Serrated Dirk only negates 7 armor and it costs 1100 gold. You can spend 300 gold to get an item that grants 30 armor. You can spend the rest of the remaining gold buying more armor or more damage. As a Zed main, he only deals damage if the opponent is dumb as fuck and doesn't rush armor and can't dodge shurikens. Rushing armour and dodging his shurikens is a must. IIRC duskblade and youmuus has a passive ability that makes you deal more damage. You might want to look into that first before lethality. I might get downvoted since I'm on a website where people circlejerk about assassins and think they are right.
> [{quoted}](name=l love Ahri,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2018-09-25T04:16:46.357+0000) > > "I died to him. Brb gonna complain." > > I'm glad riot does not listen to their boards because the boards are basically a meme now. Everyone outside this board only laugh at us. > > Zed is trash as hell. > > I might be biased since I'm a Zed main but so are you. I not only play Zed but also immobile mages like Malzahar and Vel'Koz. Please man, just try Zed first before complaining about him. > > Serrated Dirk only negates 7 armor and it costs 1100 gold. You can spend 300 gold to get an item that grants 30 armor. You can spend the rest of the remaining gold buying more armor or more damage. > > As a Zed main, he only deals damage if the opponent is dumb as fuck and doesn't rush armor and can't dodge shurikens. Rushing armour and dodging his shurikens is a must. > > IIRC duskblade and youmuus has a passive ability that makes you deal more damage. You might want to look into that first before lethality. > > I might get downvoted since I'm on a website where people circlejerk about assassins and think they are right. I mean I've tried Zed out before I won't say he's easy or anything, but at the same time I still think lethality is way too effective early on vs any armor I buy. I just don't even buy armor anymore because everytime I've built zhonya's vs Zed/Yasuo/Talon with lethality they just get right through it as if I had none to begin with. I can usually dodge his shurikens it's mostly when he uses his shadow pointblank on top of me is when I have a problem. Like one time I went to go heal from being poked and went back to lane and immediately got poked from 100 to 50 just because he can put the shadow on top of you. Yes I should've probably not went for the wave I was about to miss from backing, but that would gurantee he gets an exp/gold lead just from zoning me with his shadow up. It's a lose-lose
Vanic998 (NA)
: I see two solutions: 1. Create a new mana armor ap item meant to be built first or rework zonyas again for the same purpose mentioned. 2. Do something about zed's energy.
> [{quoted}](name=Vanic998,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0026,timestamp=2018-09-25T02:36:23.185+0000) > > I see two solutions: > > 1. Create a new mana armor ap item meant to be built first or rework zonyas again for the same purpose mentioned. > > 2. Do something about zed's energy. they should just make everyone suffer with a mana bar and call it a life https://i.imgflip.com/1ewdzs.jpg
Cloud273 (NA)
: He doesn't sound toxic based off those chat logs. He just sounds extremely frustrated with the current state of this game, just like so many other people are.
> [{quoted}](name=Cloud273,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0025,timestamp=2018-09-25T02:34:33.866+0000) > > He doesn't sound toxic based off those chat logs. He just sounds extremely frustrated with the current state of this game, just like so many other people are. it happens I guess lol
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=Cha The Boosted,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0024,timestamp=2018-09-25T01:02:54.665+0000) > > ur just bad at this game. Riot literally nerfed duskblade cuz all u guys bitch about it. Now ya gonna bitch bout how lethality isi all this and that. Go Kiss YouSelf A kiss sounds pretty good :^) I'll take it into consideration.
: I honest think it devalues the actual assasins they're on. Like, everyone's all hella bursty hella low cool downs, all the same, a quick delete button and a free escape. I wish penetration was less common so that the early kill champs would stand out more, but they all use the same itemes cuz it's the only thing that works. Assasins are suppose to be last hitters with extreme mobility and good execution to vuneral targets, but they're all dive and flee with little consequence, save a strong CC. Or a mistake on their part. Theirs. Not their foes. You can play perfectly against an assasin and loose every time.
> [{quoted}](name=ZinicoHaramunya,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0023,timestamp=2018-09-25T00:58:59.913+0000) > > I honest think it devalues the actual assasins they're on. Like, everyone's all hella bursty hella low cool downs, all the same, a quick delete button and a free escape. I wish penetration was less common so that the early kill champs would stand out more, but they all use the same itemes cuz it's the only thing that works. Assasins are suppose to be last hitters with extreme mobility and good execution to vuneral targets, but they're all dive and flee with little consequence, save a strong CC. Or a mistake on their part. Theirs. Not their foes. You can play perfectly against an assasin and loose every time. That's how I feel too to be honest.
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001d0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:32:23.661+0000) > > That's the thing though, if you watched my replays you'd understand I have a solid understanding of Zed's range for his basic combo. It's the fact that I can't allow him to zone me all game otherwise I'll purposely lose a good portion of farm and may be zoned from following up on either team or enemy getting caught out in the jungle. There are times where I have to take said risks, it's not a matter of blindly walking in because I don't understand simple range. It's more a matter of how long am I going to just keep missing farm and opportunities to help teammates. Being greedy for farm does not justify basically allowing Zed to get free poke. Same mindset into other lane bullies or strong early game champions.
> [{quoted}](name=OneBarrel,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001d00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:35:58.955+0000) > > Being greedy for farm does not justify basically allowing Zed to get free poke. Same mindset into other lane bullies or strong early game champions. Playing passive and too safe all game also doesn't win games, it just prolongs an inevitable loss. Risks have to be taken sometimes.
: Blaming the game for you emotional instability and failure at all 3 check points to get perma’d Yep, definitely on Boards. “You Are Trash” oof what a positive summoner name too, who could’ve foreseen this outcome.
> [{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=0022,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:51:48.653+0000) > > Blaming the game for you emotional instability and failure at all 3 check points to get perma’d > > Yep, definitely on Boards. > > “You Are Trash” oof what a positive summoner name too, who could’ve foreseen this outcome. Thanks :^)
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001d00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:12:57.811+0000) > > Lethality isn't the issue later on in game. By then smart players already have Black Cleaver. Also platinum isn't I agree, but I have definitely hit high diamond a few times in my experience overall on other accounts. Plat was just the current elo this account stopped in before I got banned. Also no, how are you supposed to sidestep a W E+Q combo if he puts shadow LITERALLY on top of you??? At this point you're basically implying I either rush a hexbelt or play a champion with a built-in blink which goes offtopic. Let's see here. If you are walking up that close to a Zed that he can W E W AA Q you, this isn't a problem with Zed. This is a problem with how you play against a Zed. Also, I've seen plenty of Zed's land their E slow by "placing their W on top of you" but miss their Q because you can walk through it. I actually prefer Zed's throwing W onto me instead of near me because if I'm near it, there's only so much degree of movement to sidestep, but if you're inside the area he is sending the skillshot, you can dodge in 360 degrees.
> [{quoted}](name=OneBarrel,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001d000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:26:14.171+0000) > > Let's see here. If you are walking up that close to a Zed that he can W E W AA Q you, this isn't a problem with Zed. This is a problem with how you play against a Zed. Also, I've seen plenty of Zed's land their E slow by "placing their W on top of you" but miss their Q because you can walk through it. I actually prefer Zed's throwing W onto me instead of near me because if I'm near it, there's only so much degree of movement to sidestep, but if you're inside the area he is sending the skillshot, you can dodge in 360 degrees. That's the thing though, if you watched my replays you'd understand I have a solid understanding of Zed's range for his basic combo. It's the fact that I can't allow him to zone me all game otherwise I'll purposely lose a good portion of farm and may be zoned from following up on either team or enemy getting caught out in the jungle. There are times where I have to take said risks, it's not a matter of blindly walking in because I don't understand simple range. It's more a matter of how long am I going to just keep missing farm and opportunities to help teammates.
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001c000000010002,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:08:16.306+0000) > > Still a good amount earlygame. If it was like 200 - 9 then yeah it wouldn't matter much, but if it's 20 - 9 then yeah it's going to be significant early on. Armor and Resists are soft capped the more you buy it but also has high impact in the beginning if you have none. ???????????????????????????? 21 bonus armor is still alot! thats still almost a tabi, and thats still not including the armor you get from stacking seekers passivly.
> [{quoted}](name=L9 Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001c0000000100020001,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:18:19.857+0000) > > ???????????????????????????? 21 bonus armor is still alot! thats still almost a tabi, and thats still not including the armor you get from stacking seekers passivly. The mathematical portion may seem satisfying but when you personally experience the trades in lane it depicts a different story. That's the point I've been trying to make.
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001c000000010002,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:08:16.306+0000) > > Still a good amount earlygame. If it was like 200 - 9 then yeah it wouldn't matter much, but if it's 20 - 9 then yeah it's going to be significant early on. Armor and Resists are soft capped the more you buy it but also has high impact in the beginning if you have none. Also dont most mages have good armor growth per lvl? not many people have Mr growth
> [{quoted}](name=L9 Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001c0000000100020000,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:11:56.641+0000) > > Also dont most mages have good armor growth per lvl? not many people have Mr growth Doesn't feel like it to be honest.
: > [{quoted}](name=Y0U ARE TRASH,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001d000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-24T22:00:51.065+0000) > > I already knew about walking behind my Veigar wall and him coming out of his ulti behind me by default. You don't get this luxury all the time. A lot of times their teammates will either CC you or pressure you to walk a certain way to dodge skillshots while he's doing his ultimate in high elo. Also I've done Exhaust before versus Zed, I personally prefer Heal because it helps my junglers or other lanes survive in case they get caught. Summoner spells are purely preference, so I'm neither wrong or right in that aspect. Like I said I've done VeigarV2's build before with Zhonya, Ninja Tabi, and Deadman's plate and lethality still cuts through that like nothing, by then they probably have black cleaver and I'm significantly weaker for building that route. I specifically only build that if the enemy has all AD's for whatever reason. > > Also no, Tear and Rod don't help you early. The whole conflict is not for dealing with Zed later on when those items are effective. This whole post has been about earlygame lethality effectiveness. As for my Zhonya's timing it's fine. The active portion is not my conflict, it's just the fact that his basic W Q+E combo with Electrocute still shreds through buying pre-Zhonya and full Zhonya. > > > Just overall I've always been disappointed with Zhonya's purchase in high elo. Everyone knows how to time the stasis and prefire the moment it's done. I'm ok with buying it in low to mid elo because it's effective really only there, for the wrong reasons though. It's good in those elos on the basis people either don't know the zhonya timing or just don't know how to prefire when it's about to end. In high elo however it's arguably the mage's top reason of death. The item baits the buyer most of the time in high elo unless your team is willing to followup on this teamfight cue. Like if I was a tank and saw my mage in Zhonya I'd think to myself 'man he's about to get prefired when he comes out of that stasis, I should probably either stand in front of that prefire or prevent the enemy from getting to them. As support same thing but if I was non-tanky support I'd probably try and proc support items the moment stasis is done. Those kind of cues are kind of RNG though even in high elo. Zhonya is too team-reliant of an item. In solo/duo it's one of the biggest bait items for the buyer. Usually I see enemies in Zhonya and most of the time i can force them to flash or they end up dying from my prefire because I know the timing by heart. I don't think lethality shreds through deadmans, tabi, and zhonyas as lethality is flat not percentage penetration. Also you talk about lethality's early game effectiveness, but complain about Zed's late game melting said VeigarV2 build and complaining about the time period after lane phase where you are talking about using your E not as effective when enemy teamates are forcing you to path. Also BTW, platinimum is NOT high elo, so stop talking about "high elo." You also cannon nullify my opinions on lethality or "high elo" in that matter since I'm only plat 3. You also talk about how Zhonyas isn't the problem but Zed's kit being able to shred you by hitting every ability on you. Let me put this into terms you will understand. DUH. If any champion hits their full combo onto anyone, they will "shred" you. This isn't a problem about lethality that you are now bringiing up, this is your inability to dodge one of the most unreliable Zed combos; his fast combo ( W Q E). If you are being hit by his slow combo (W E Q), that's your own problem as that one is incredibly easy to sidestep.
> [{quoted}](name=OneBarrel,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=cmg3AUie,comment-id=001d0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-24T23:00:08.628+0000) > > I don't think lethality shreds through deadmans, tabi, and zhonyas as lethality is flat not percentage penetration. Also you talk about lethality's early game effectiveness, but complain about Zed's late game melting said VeigarV2 build and complaining about the time period after lane phase where you are talking about using your E not as effective when enemy teamates are forcing you to path. Also BTW, platinimum is NOT high elo, so stop talking about "high elo." You also cannon nullify my opinions on lethality or "high elo" in that matter since I'm only plat 3. You also talk about how Zhonyas isn't the problem but Zed's kit being able to shred you by hitting every ability on you. Let me put this into terms you will understand. DUH. If any champion hits their full combo onto anyone, they will "shred" you. This isn't a problem about lethality that you are now bringiing up, this is your inability to dodge one of the most unreliable Zed combos; his fast combo ( W Q E). If you are being hit by his slow combo (W E Q), that's your own problem as that one is incredibly easy to sidestep. Lethality isn't the issue later on in game. By then smart players already have Black Cleaver. Also platinum isn't I agree, but I have definitely hit high diamond a few times in my experience overall on other accounts. Plat was just the current elo this account stopped in before I got banned. Also no, how are you supposed to sidestep a W E+Q combo if he puts shadow LITERALLY on top of you??? At this point you're basically implying I either rush a hexbelt or play a champion with a built-in blink which goes offtopic.
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Y0U ARE TRASH

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