Khelarald (EUW)
: I will never get tired of praising all the effort and good work put in a single post. Please, Riot, consider this design philosophy so League of Legends can raise from just an average game (with immense potential) to a rounded and polished crafted one, where everything has a powerful reason to exist. That's the only way this game could prevail the years to come and more... Please, Riot, make the perfect MOBA.
> [{quoted}](name=Khelarald,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=0033,timestamp=2016-04-20T23:25:29.397+0000) > > I will never get tired of praising all the effort and good work put in a single post. > Please, Riot, consider this design philosophy so League of Legends can raise from just an average game (with immense potential) to a rounded and polished crafted one, where everything has a powerful reason to exist. That's the only way this game could prevail the years to come and more... > > Please, Riot, make the perfect MOBA. Thanks, dude! I really appreciate comments like this in return! :)
Rain NT (NA)
: Honestly I think youre too serious about this. I dont care if champions doesnt have abilities that thematically work. For me every champion should have atleast 2 or 3 abilities that thematically work and 2 or 3 abilities to just make the champion feel smooth. If you dont like the game, you dont need to play it lol. I honestly dont think I would like the game that much if they change everything they have already made just because people dont like the game cause its not thematically correct. Unless they someone make a full overhaul that doesnt buff or nerf anything and doesnt change the gameplay of everything. Then theres no point, if they were gonna make it thematically correct, they should have done it since the beginning.
> [{quoted}](name=Lucifxr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=0030,timestamp=2016-03-30T10:17:17.082+0000) > > Honestly I think youre too serious about this. I dont care if champions doesnt have abilities that thematically work. Just because you don't care doesn't mean it shouldn't happen! Riot has already started doing this themselves, take a look at the recent changes to ADC's and a more consistent thematically tied champions in terms of gameplay with a specific, unified goal; Gnar, Braum, Bard, etcetera! > For me every champion should have atleast 2 or 3 abilities that thematically work and 2 or 3 abilities to just make the champion feel smooth. A champion can be as thematically tied as it could possibly be _**and**_ feel smooth! If anything, the more the champion makes sense thematically, it is going to provide a much more smooth and fleshed out gaming experience! > If you dont like the game, you dont need to play it lol. I love the game, and I still like it, as I do play it from time to time. But it could be a whole lot better! > I honestly dont think I would like the game that much if they change everything they have already made just because people dont like the game cause its not thematically correct. We've proposed all these changes for a sequel for League to not mess with the current playerbase! Unfortunately, for you, Riot seems to have taken a different approach and is revamping the game in it's current condition already. If you really like Malzahar, Vlad, Zyra, Brand, etc, right now, and if you think there's nothing wrong with their kits, I suggest you play the hell out of them because they are in for (big) reworks! And changes are going to be made for thematic reasons (theme and delivering a strategic niche) as well as counterplay (Vlad's toxic, poor counterplay comes to mind). So, yeah, they've already started doing this! Yet, we fear it is still not going to fix all the problems these champions have, as described by ItemsGuy: > I won't speak on his behalf, but it seems to be less that they're solving the problems he's pointing out, and more that while they are solving some problems (ex. Sion no longer shoots eye lasers at you, Morde bonks you with his mace a little more, Valor plays a more prominent part in Quinn's kit, etc.), they're either A) not being solved in their entirety, B) creating new problems in the process, or C) failing to address problems that Riot does not yet recognize as problems. > > For A, consider Sion - while his rework turns him into a good mix of a warrior's brute force and the tenacity characteristic of the undead (zombies keeps shambling when you shoot their legs off!), he still has that weird, exploding magic shield. It's a very mage-y ability, and even though you could say "but he's a tanky guy so durability makes sense on him!" it seems it would make more sense for that durability to be more brutish than magical in nature. > > For B, consider Fiora - new mechanics were introduced into her kit to allow her to become more of a fencing-style duelist (dash in and out, strike at vitals for winning trades), while also allowing her to be "fair" in that dueling power (contrast Yi who really just needs to right-click on you and out-stat you to win duels). However, they also decided to give her an ult that heals her entire team rather than something that would be more at home in the context of a masterful duelist! Disarming her opponent a la that fight scene in Princess Bride or executing them with style, who knows? > > For C, consider that for most champions in the game, their R button is the "press in case of teamfight" button; the vast majority of champions are designed around a game where after the laning phase, people just kind of walk around as a team and jump on the other team when they're out of position. It's gotten to the point where Riot seems to be boiling down a champion's niche to their ultimate: Vi's niche is that she can reliably CC the enemy carry, Kindred's niche is that she can stop people from dying, Fiora's niche is that she can heal her whole team, etc. - and you can notice that these "niches" have very little to do with whatever those champions are doing whenever that R button is grey. This sort of monotonous routine is what seems to be driving a good number of players away (if threads on the boards and stuff like Dunkey's video are anything to go by), it's almost like despite there being 130 champions in the roster, every game manages to feel more or less the same! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Unless they someone make a full overhaul that doesnt buff or nerf anything and doesnt change the gameplay of everything. Then theres no point, if they were gonna make it thematically correct, they should have done it since the beginning. You are asking the developer of a game (with a very, very young genre! I mean, the MOBA genre is still a baby to game developers and there's much to learn and explore) to not improve on their old mistakes and evolve their game! They haven't started treating theming as the starting point of bringing a champion to life because they didn't know yet it was very, very important to do so. This is why old champions like Annie (lack of consistent theme + poor counterplay), Master Yi (poor counterplay because of lack of unified game play goal resulting in no defined strengths and weaknesses) and Dr. Mundo are considered way less successful and healthy designs when compared to champions such as Bard, Braum and Gnar! All whom do have very consistent theming and defined strengths and weaknesses due to a clear, gameplay goal. [When people make games they make mistakes.](http://imgur.com/bGex8oH) And a ''yeah it's broke but let's not fix it because we've already implemented it'' is not going to do much good for the game! :)
Bellows (NA)
: TL;DR. But I saw DUNKEY was mentioned once. <3 p-p-PELICAN
> [{quoted}](name=CantBenchDaKench,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=002f,timestamp=2016-03-29T16:02:18.707+0000) > > TL;DR. > > But I saw DUNKEY was mentioned once. <3 > > p-p-PELICAN What Dunkey has said (that what I quoted) is very true, and is one of the reasons he quit the game! I understand it is a long read (or watch), but it might be well worth your time by the time you get to the end. Let us know if you do!
Bônes (NA)
: "League is dying right now" http://www.kotaku.com.au/2016/01/league-of-legends-made-more-revenue-in-2015-than-csgo-dota-2-and-world-of-warcraft-combined/ You're killing your credibility here. When you shit like that, I'm inclined to believe you don't know what you're talking about.
> [{quoted}](name=SG Bones,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=002e,timestamp=2016-03-29T15:58:42.236+0000) > > "League is dying right now" > > http://www.kotaku.com.au/2016/01/league-of-legends-made-more-revenue-in-2015-than-csgo-dota-2-and-world-of-warcraft-combined/ > You're killing your credibility here. When you shit like that, I'm inclined to believe you don't know what you're talking about. I admit it's over exaggerated, yes. But the playerbase does seem to be in decline and will probably continue to do so for the reasons listed in the OP. I'm fine with you being inclined to believe that I have no clue what I'm talking about, seeing as you've probably just scrolled down and stopped being bothered about this thread altogether after reading that little bit at the end. Think it goes to show this thread might not be a thing you'd want to watch or read. Picking out that single sentence out of quite an essay of 7000 words really doesn't do my/the work justice. Suit yourself! That said, thanks for pointing it out. I should adjust it sometime soon and be more clear on what I mean when I say League is dying right now. Cheers!
: Why League of Legends Isn't As Awesome As It Could Be - @Morello, @Meddler
Having some troubles putting annotations in the video, but will try to get around it asap! It's a little more difficult then I thought.
: Why League of Legends Isn't As Awesome As It Could Be - @Morello, @Meddler
Finally got around to completing the video's description on youtube! Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdbnxoxBTKg :) EDIT: Also edited the main OP for some clarity and better navigation through the post/used quotes and external videos and images!
: Guys, you are killing me (metaphorically, no worries). I can't possibly answer all of this. It already hurts me if I have to ignore 2/3rds of your post, just to keep it condensed and on spot, and now you provide me with 8 different answers and text that I need more than 15 seconds to just _SCROLL_ through. I will try to get some points across tomorrow, in the end I only have got 4 hours of sleep and 12hours of work behind me. I enjoy your passion for game design and your attempts of being as understandable as possible, but this discussion is getting out of hand. Please try to be more precise. I am already ignoring my other work on Karma and stretching the term _"sparing my finger's joints, so they can recover"_ very thinly, just to keep answering on a very basic level. I like this discussion, but I'd rather have a little less of it at once. I hope you understand.
> [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=0023000000000000000000000000000100000000000000030001,timestamp=2016-03-25T02:12:26.934+0000) > > Guys, you are killing me (metaphorically, no worries). > > I can't possibly answer all of this. It already hurts me if I have to ignore 2/3rds of your post, just to keep it condensed and on spot, and now you provide me with 8 different answers and text that I need more than 15 seconds to just _SCROLL_ through. I will try to get some points across tomorrow, in the end I only have got 4 hours of sleep and 12hours of work behind me. > > I enjoy your passion for game design and your attempts of being as understandable as possible, but this discussion is getting out of hand. Please try to be more precise. I am already ignoring my other work on Karma and stretching the term _"sparing my finger's joints, so they can recover"_ very thinly, just to keep answering on a very basic level. > > I like this discussion, but I'd rather have a little less of it at once. I hope you understand. Wanted to say the same! We're gonna be around here for at least the next few weeks to come, not gonna give up until we've got a red reply. Take your time, do whatever you feel is right. Read it in bits, read it all, digest it for a few days, come back. It's all good, man! Priorities/responsibilities first! This is something I struggle with myself, but, perhaps you'll actually manage to do this succesfully. As for the amount of text; honestly, reading it shouldn't take more than half an hour really. And I do realize that even this half an hour is valuable time, but it's not like we are writing bibles. That said, I will try to keep things a little shorter for your sake from now on, it's just that I'm a little long-winded naturally, as well as the fact that the subject matter (the entire game and it's characters, really) is quite huge, so rather than being short and snappy, we prefer to be a little more precise and detailled! Hope to see you some time soon, but, take your time, buddy!
ItemsGuy (NA)
: >@ItemsGuy: This begs the question. How is it that some of your Redesigns could actually function as both support and midlane? I mean, Redesign Soraka and Karma are always going to be that support, just like Alistar, Edmund and what not. But what about Zyra? Isn't she not going to be too strong when in lane, or isn't she going to feel underwhelming compared to other supports if she's actually played as support instead? I've designed champions like Zyra, Heimer, etc. with some sort of flexibility in mind, but this still comes from meaningful decisions rather than just giving them everything they need to thrive in both roles simultaneously (like high base damages AND ratios). For instance, a support Zyra would be maxing her E and W over her Q, and while her plants would still be equally strong as they scale off of level, she would prioritize making the ones that slow (utility) over the ranged ones (damage) because the slow does not scale with anything. She would also be focusing on CDR at the cost of mana, so she can throw out more CC from her E (which doesn't scale with AP), meaning she would not be doing as much damage compared to if she dedicated herself to being a midlane mage that game. Similarly, Heimer as a support would be focusing on his healing inventions over his turrets, and would be building some durability (which makes his machines tougher), but less emphasis on AP and turrets means his strengths would be different, and he might be using his turrets for vision and utility (Rylai's) rather than a territorial damage threat. >Sion gets to be a juggernaut because Riot decided they wanted him to be one This is actually something that bugs me more about his update than the passive (as it could be argued that it at least rewards him for getting killed first, as his abilities draw a lot of aggro), since not only does Sion not look like he should be running across the map (with his massive axe and peg leg), but it undermines why undead things are scary. I feel Sion would be more intimidating if he more closely represented the inevitable advance of death, which is why slow zombies are scary in the first place. >Currently the only thing that really captures one of these two is his passive, all his other abilities have to do with ''Juggernaut'' which is more of a role within League of Legends rather than a characteristic or thematic aspect. [Well......](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqtqEZqGg5A) >Redesign Sion does this well, even if it is a very simple design, it gives me feelings of nostaligia and has me going: if only I could actually get to that target more effectively back then, before Sion got reworked! Keep in mind, I'm probably going to rework him again sometime soon, since he does run into a few problems I know how to fix now (like not having a way to deal with HP costs until level 6 and Enrage trying to do too many different things at once).
> Well...... My bad. You understand what I was trying to say, though! Maybe ''Juggernaut'' itself could be a characteristic that translates to visual appearance as well as actual gameplay, but it isn't for an undead warrior, really! > Keep in mind, I'm probably going to rework him again sometime soon, since he does run into a few problems I know how to fix now (like not having a way to deal with HP costs until level 6 and Enrage trying to do too many different things at once). I'm confident you'll be able to keep him that undead warrior with that undead warrior feel!
: > the visual gave less actionable gameplay information than it needed to, considering it was affected by damage done to all nearby allies AND Karma Should be rather intuitive, actually. You hurt her ally, she gains the glowing bar. I mean, I don't think it's perfect, but keep in mind, that I am working with what I've got; the game so far, the community and Riot's philosophy. I try to copy existing design elements, try to listen to what the community likes and try to estimate what Riot is likely/willing to implement. This is a different goal than trying to rehaul Riot's philosophy. I made a passive that's visually clearer than Irelia's, while giving more thematics than today and better counterplay than the Old Karma. As you can see I try to move a step forward and wouldn't want to undermine the staircase to make a better one. Please keep that in mind. > Any champion that brings value to their team by adding power onto other champions must consequently be weaker on their own I don't mind having a weaker, but more flexible champion. That's why I liked 3.5 - 5.10 Karma the most. She wasn't a really strong mage or support, but reasonable. She was flexible and thematically interesting. I think there is also a design argument for having those kinds of champions. > That, and it's not that her solo lane is simply "boring," I am trying to stay short and precise. You want her out of sololanes, which people won't like. That's my point. > Except, since she's at full health and not risking anything, she's getting 0 value out of her passive If she isn't supposed to scale well with AP, she probably really doesn't need the AP that much. Getting hit herself isn't a requirement, having her target hit, is. Getting through to her and hitting her would give her even more power though, compared to Soraka, who would lose her healthpool to heal with. > Just having it on, say, your Tristana (who you want to not die) means that you'll be missing on all the effectiveness you'd get from putting it on Malphite Considering the short CD you proposed, I don't see much problem with her switching. She really doesn't have to commit a lot. > And like I said, CC isn't equally useful in every scenario, and neither is damage. Neither is shielding. Also, I appreciate the anedotes, but you are kind of overdoing them on really easy points. It feels like you are getting sidetracked sometimes. > With Karma, however, "And maybe her damage would've been more useful, but she had to heal" is a moot point if I remember old Karma's kit correctly I was talking about modern Karma (RW) here. But either way, if Old Karma uses her mantra for healing (RQ), she can't use it for the extra damage (RE). It's pretty much the same, but more unique in application. And "also here is some damage" on her RQ only worked if you had the propper positioning and timing... So it takes more skill and planning than the current format. > Even then, it sacrificed amazing high-moments in order to get rid of its low moments as well. I know where you are getting at, but you are painting it a bit black and white. I mean, what's the point in hitting someone, if he can heal it up anyways, only spending some mana? So you should kill him outright and he should have an instant dodge. Sometimes it's more interesting to have multiple decisions and actions add up. Sometimes reliability is a desireable trait. Sometimes people like working with nuances. Flashy kits and hits are interesting, but sometimes dividing it into more steps adds some drama to it. I mean, we have multiple layers of towers for a reason, I guess? Instead of just one inhibitor tower right behind the lane. > You can only ever force her to be less efficient, which limits their agency I disagree. Or, let's say, I would love to compare it to an Annie, who flashes onto you and instagibs you. I don't think that Karma has been even close to the worst offenders here. Or let's look at Zed. If he ults you, you are guaranteed to take some damage. But dodging (most of) his Qs can limit the damage he does, It's a few seconds of multiple actions that add up, but ultimately, they will take more or less damage.... in a situation that both participants are involved in. Not saying that I liked the lack of counterplay Old Karma had... > I wouldn't really describe old Karma as a champion that alternated between helping and hurting You could either heal with RQ or damage with RE. You couldn't have both. This is the closest to _"not necessarily having a heal in her kit"_ we have gotten in LoL so far. Next closest would be Liss. > Rather, I understand you found something about a character that had a very strong impact on you I am mostly concerned with game design. I used to work a lot on the game design of a SC2 mod, in a small community. But I never thought I'd be good/experienced/knowing enough to contribute to a community as big as LoL's. But when my favourite champion was changed contrary to my understanding of game design and contrary to my understanding of RIOT's game design and contrary to the desires of all the Karma fans I knew... I just had to start arguing. And I have yet to hear a justification for what they did in 5.10, that would beat any of my game design arguments. Seeing someone imply I would do this for my own needs, when I spent the last few months arguing as objectively as possible, feels like a hit in the guts. > Again, not everything needs to have a secret compartment or pleasant surprise. Xerath doesn't need to show us that he has a secret heart of gold by healing his teammates Not saying they need something contrary. But unusual. A personal spin. Like having Brand's combos or Twitch piercing enemies. Rats stink and are sneaky, we get it, but piercing crossbow shots? Nice. I also like that Aurelion Sol isn't just a dragon, but a cosmic one. How Braum has a door instead of a shield and Jinx has no boobs. It's the small things in life, you know(heh)? > rather than being surprising for the sake of being surprising. Of course not. But this would probably come naturally with good character design. Sion doesn't have a bloodshield for the sake of not being a brute, but because he used to have a similar shield. That's not a perfect reason, but at least a reasonable one. On a side note, I dislike Shen's new sword. It seems like a missfit. Probably the european sword on a ninja. Ninja tank was already stretching it... > Ideally, exploration should be more about seeing how 5 unique characters interact Probably, but this might fall prey to what LoL should be, what it is and what it used to be. It's a weird hybrid of those things. It used to offer things it shouldn't have, what surprisingly many people got attached to. Maybe an argument for LoL2? > It is very clear that you care about Karma a lot, and I appreciate that you've taken the time and effort to plead her case to a complete stranger I don't choose those strangers randomly. I usually only try with people I expect good arguments from. Either I learn to defeat them, or I can adapt them. Either way, I am moving forward. I am looking forward to your replies. But even more so to my bed. I need to get up in 4 hours. Oh well...
That said, that is probably what an undead warrior should be able to do. And if that seems boring to you, that's fine! Just means that you wouldn't really like playing as an undead warrior with an undead warrior playstyle, because, although giving him a magical shield would make him more interesting for some, it will probably only feel less satisfying for the people that actually want to really play _like_ an undead warrior. For the record, I'm a big fan of LOTR and Treebeard, plus I've always been drawn to ''magic + nature'' in terms of videogames (just as necromancy is something I've always found cool, which is why at the time when ItemsGuy didn't know what to do with Yorick yet, I came up with 90%/the general gist of his abilities in his Redesign, ItemsGuy just added the numbers and some mechanical things that were necessary in terms of counterplay), and I remember how I was very dissappointed to find out how Maokai turned out to play like. Sure, I could see I was playing _as_ (visual) an angry, magical tree, but not really _like_ (gameplay) one. **ItemsGuy: This is why I'm so adamant about her counter-aggression being focused on only one target at a time, rather than blanketed across her entire team.** Defined strengths and weaknesses! :) ** SilverSquid: And Heimer's CC does damage too? You also just CC'ed someone. You perfectly used all of it, while Karma could use half of one ability. And maybe her damage would've been more useful, but she had to heal? Isn't this the same thing as forcing Heimer to CC, but his damage would've been more useful?** Just wanted to say this as well, but the damage might as well not be on there for Heimerdinger. Seriously, it's really just ''the CC option'' of his ult, not ''the CC option with some damage''. Sure it is _some_ damage, but the damage is little enough to objectively conclude that it's there for the CC only, really. Don't even think it'd hurt him that much if they removed the damage entirely. **ItemsGuy: Even then, it sacrificed amazing high-moments in order to get rid of its low moments as well. Its highest point for the player just ends up being less satisfying, while their opponent's maximum satisfaction is diminished to "Well, I kind of forced her to use a slightly less effect-efficient version of one of her mantras..." Compare that to dodging an Ashe arrow or forcing Tahm to pop his E and waddle out of the fight. Ashe gets to feel really good about that 3 second stun while Tahm can stick around forever if he manages his engagements carefully, while their opponents get to feel cool about temporarily taking a tool away from their opponent through skilled play.** Defined strengths and weaknesses with examples of actual gameplay! SilverSquid, not sure if you're familiar with HOTS, but allow me to use some examples: Take Sgt Hammer: She will wreck your balls if she's stationary. If she settles down and you let her stand still, you're fucked. If you force her to move she's not gonna be entirely useless, but you cut down her power A LOT. Her goal: stand still, shoot from distance. Take Abathur from HOTS: He will push like a mad man the further he is on the map/the closer he is to the enemy base. If you search and hunt for him and force him back to base, you cut his power a lot. He's not entirely useless when standing in base, but he does push less effectively. Goal: Move as far into the map to push harder. Take Rexxar from Heroes of the Storm: As long as Mischa is up he's pretty powerful, kill the bear and you cut his power A LOT. He's not entirely useless without Mischa, as he's still able to cast his Q and auto attack, but still, killing his pet companion is the most effective way of dealing with him. Goal: Screwing you over with bear/Mischa and keeping her alive. These are very unified playstyles: Sgt Hammer wants to wreck your balls while standing still, from distance. Abathur wants to push as hard and as far into the map as he can, Rexxar wants to screw you over with his bear. The counterplay to these designs are very clear, the moment you prevent them from reaching their ideal situation is where you cut their power, although, you do not make them entirely useless. Sgt. Hammer can still do stuff even if she's not stationary, Abathur can safely sit in base and Rexxar can still auto attack and Q when Mischa's down. You cut their power A LOT by making sure they don't reach their goal/perfect scenario. [Redesign Yorick](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-yorick-gravedigger.html) wants to overrun you with a herd of zombies, you cut his power by dealing with his zombies, although, he's never entirely useless: even without tombes he can spawn at least one zombie next to him with every cast of Gravecall. [Redesign Fiora](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-fiora-grand-duelist.html) wants to force duels, which is to say; 1 vs 1 fights. Force her into teamfights and you cut her power, however, she'll still be able to do something; disarming an enemy (preferably someone whose sets out to kill your carries), reducing the damage they deal for a few seconds sounds good, aye? This all has to do with creating a character with one concrete goal in mind, this allows champions to really shine at something, because they are less good at something else. And those are trade-offs and how they should be! Which is probably what ItemsGuy is trying to say here about Karma and her previously being able to deal with multiple people at the same time. It's just a bit too much! **SilverSquid: Considering the short CD you proposed, I don't see much problem with her switching. She really doesn't have to commit a lot.** Brings me to my next point: Irelia, Yasuo, Lee Sin, these are all designs that are inherently broken. Tweak the numbers all you want, so long as they don't have a concrete goal tied to their kit/very defined strengths and weaknesses, it'll be very hard to balance them. And even if the numbers seem appropriate at a particular moment, the design is still going to feel lame to play against. I mean, whether Leblanc is balanced or not, it never feels very fair ''just getting blown up'' by her, because there is nothing you can really do but just to stay as far away from her as possible and hug teammates. The numbers in ItemsGuy's Redesigns are subjective to change. The most important thing to note is that his designs can be very balanced with the right numbers, and if a champion would either turn out to be UP or OP, all you'd have to do is play with those numbers! PS: Also 5 seconds is actually a pretty long cooldown, enough time to wreck someone. (ie AP Malphite ult on your two carries... ouch!) **SilverSquid: I try to copy existing design elements, try to listen to what the community likes and try to estimate what Riot is likely/willing to implement.** Friend of mine read a lot of ItemsGuy's redesigns, loved a lot of them. However, something he'd say time and time again: this isn't DOTA, this ability doesn't fit in League. Three years ago we were struggling with this; how were we going to convince Riot to really start with the theme of a champion, which would result in more defined weaknesses, but also accentuated strengths (so you actually have these: ''WTF THAT'S POWERFUL''-ultimates)? Well, let's say I couldn't have dreamt back then that one day Quinn would be turned into the roaming marksman, with her mobility-ultimate on a **_three second cooldown._** They're getting there! (or some dragon being able to fly very large distances, or some frog being able to swallow up enemies or allies, all kits and abilities they were absolutely terrified to even think about three years ago! hehe) _**SilverSquid: Probably only the transition is boring. From having few champions that have a lot of ways to be played, to having a lot of champions in basically one way to be played. I am just trying to highlight concerns of mine. And also trying to highlight why League isn't as interesting as it used to. The sense of adventure is gone. Adventures in seeing new builds, new metas, new ways of thinking. Now they get starved by the rare release every few months, instead of whenever they played...**_ Used to play Nunu + Swain botline a lot with that same friend. It was glorious. However, the only reason we were able to get this specific type of joy out of the game is because we didn't have pro players to figure the best strategy out for us, yet. And as long as the root of the cause is the game lacking in strategic diversity, it'll remains this way, even though if you like still like playing tryndamere AP or AP Tristana (dunno if these are still possible but w/e you get the picture). Playing AP Trynd is funny because it's something different. However, it's only really as funny and cool if it's as viable as AD Tryndamere, because ultimately, the game is about trying to destroy the opponent's nexus instead of seeing yours being blown to bits. Like ItemsGuy, I really think that people enjoying the balls out of those weird item builds on champions is more of a result of the champions being boring/not delivering you the proper experience they should deliver, rather than personal expression for the sake of personal expression. _**SilverSquid: I am looking forward to your replies. But even more so to my bed. I need to get up in 4 hours. Oh well...**_ Seriously, hats off to you and, I salute you. I know how that feels and I'd really like to thank you for that. Goes to show that you are very passionate about this stuff, and people like you literally make this world a better place instead of the thousands of thousands that seem to give a sh*t, but don't muster up the courage to actually do something about it. And you could apply this to basically any field of work whether you'd be talking about game design, science, sports, etcetera. Making this thread and video wasn't probably the healthiest thing to do for me, but hopefully, it'll be worth it. Hope both of you reply to the things above as well as continuing your discussion!
: > the visual gave less actionable gameplay information than it needed to, considering it was affected by damage done to all nearby allies AND Karma Should be rather intuitive, actually. You hurt her ally, she gains the glowing bar. I mean, I don't think it's perfect, but keep in mind, that I am working with what I've got; the game so far, the community and Riot's philosophy. I try to copy existing design elements, try to listen to what the community likes and try to estimate what Riot is likely/willing to implement. This is a different goal than trying to rehaul Riot's philosophy. I made a passive that's visually clearer than Irelia's, while giving more thematics than today and better counterplay than the Old Karma. As you can see I try to move a step forward and wouldn't want to undermine the staircase to make a better one. Please keep that in mind. > Any champion that brings value to their team by adding power onto other champions must consequently be weaker on their own I don't mind having a weaker, but more flexible champion. That's why I liked 3.5 - 5.10 Karma the most. She wasn't a really strong mage or support, but reasonable. She was flexible and thematically interesting. I think there is also a design argument for having those kinds of champions. > That, and it's not that her solo lane is simply "boring," I am trying to stay short and precise. You want her out of sololanes, which people won't like. That's my point. > Except, since she's at full health and not risking anything, she's getting 0 value out of her passive If she isn't supposed to scale well with AP, she probably really doesn't need the AP that much. Getting hit herself isn't a requirement, having her target hit, is. Getting through to her and hitting her would give her even more power though, compared to Soraka, who would lose her healthpool to heal with. > Just having it on, say, your Tristana (who you want to not die) means that you'll be missing on all the effectiveness you'd get from putting it on Malphite Considering the short CD you proposed, I don't see much problem with her switching. She really doesn't have to commit a lot. > And like I said, CC isn't equally useful in every scenario, and neither is damage. Neither is shielding. Also, I appreciate the anedotes, but you are kind of overdoing them on really easy points. It feels like you are getting sidetracked sometimes. > With Karma, however, "And maybe her damage would've been more useful, but she had to heal" is a moot point if I remember old Karma's kit correctly I was talking about modern Karma (RW) here. But either way, if Old Karma uses her mantra for healing (RQ), she can't use it for the extra damage (RE). It's pretty much the same, but more unique in application. And "also here is some damage" on her RQ only worked if you had the propper positioning and timing... So it takes more skill and planning than the current format. > Even then, it sacrificed amazing high-moments in order to get rid of its low moments as well. I know where you are getting at, but you are painting it a bit black and white. I mean, what's the point in hitting someone, if he can heal it up anyways, only spending some mana? So you should kill him outright and he should have an instant dodge. Sometimes it's more interesting to have multiple decisions and actions add up. Sometimes reliability is a desireable trait. Sometimes people like working with nuances. Flashy kits and hits are interesting, but sometimes dividing it into more steps adds some drama to it. I mean, we have multiple layers of towers for a reason, I guess? Instead of just one inhibitor tower right behind the lane. > You can only ever force her to be less efficient, which limits their agency I disagree. Or, let's say, I would love to compare it to an Annie, who flashes onto you and instagibs you. I don't think that Karma has been even close to the worst offenders here. Or let's look at Zed. If he ults you, you are guaranteed to take some damage. But dodging (most of) his Qs can limit the damage he does, It's a few seconds of multiple actions that add up, but ultimately, they will take more or less damage.... in a situation that both participants are involved in. Not saying that I liked the lack of counterplay Old Karma had... > I wouldn't really describe old Karma as a champion that alternated between helping and hurting You could either heal with RQ or damage with RE. You couldn't have both. This is the closest to _"not necessarily having a heal in her kit"_ we have gotten in LoL so far. Next closest would be Liss. > Rather, I understand you found something about a character that had a very strong impact on you I am mostly concerned with game design. I used to work a lot on the game design of a SC2 mod, in a small community. But I never thought I'd be good/experienced/knowing enough to contribute to a community as big as LoL's. But when my favourite champion was changed contrary to my understanding of game design and contrary to my understanding of RIOT's game design and contrary to the desires of all the Karma fans I knew... I just had to start arguing. And I have yet to hear a justification for what they did in 5.10, that would beat any of my game design arguments. Seeing someone imply I would do this for my own needs, when I spent the last few months arguing as objectively as possible, feels like a hit in the guts. > Again, not everything needs to have a secret compartment or pleasant surprise. Xerath doesn't need to show us that he has a secret heart of gold by healing his teammates Not saying they need something contrary. But unusual. A personal spin. Like having Brand's combos or Twitch piercing enemies. Rats stink and are sneaky, we get it, but piercing crossbow shots? Nice. I also like that Aurelion Sol isn't just a dragon, but a cosmic one. How Braum has a door instead of a shield and Jinx has no boobs. It's the small things in life, you know(heh)? > rather than being surprising for the sake of being surprising. Of course not. But this would probably come naturally with good character design. Sion doesn't have a bloodshield for the sake of not being a brute, but because he used to have a similar shield. That's not a perfect reason, but at least a reasonable one. On a side note, I dislike Shen's new sword. It seems like a missfit. Probably the european sword on a ninja. Ninja tank was already stretching it... > Ideally, exploration should be more about seeing how 5 unique characters interact Probably, but this might fall prey to what LoL should be, what it is and what it used to be. It's a weird hybrid of those things. It used to offer things it shouldn't have, what surprisingly many people got attached to. Maybe an argument for LoL2? > It is very clear that you care about Karma a lot, and I appreciate that you've taken the time and effort to plead her case to a complete stranger I don't choose those strangers randomly. I usually only try with people I expect good arguments from. Either I learn to defeat them, or I can adapt them. Either way, I am moving forward. I am looking forward to your replies. But even more so to my bed. I need to get up in 4 hours. Oh well...
I'd just like to add a few things here. Really enjoying your discussion! > [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=00230000000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-24T04:10:47.729+0000) > This is a different goal than trying to rehaul Riot's philosophy. ItemsGuy has said it already, but I'd really like to say it in my own way as well, if I may. The moment Riot says [''you have to kind of look at a character and almost be able to know just from the splash image what it's abilities are, what's it's gonna do in a game, how it's going to function'' ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs1yD8m2fvE&t=2m30s), followed up by an image of a blind monk that ends up doing _nothing_ a blind monk would do in the actual game, is where things go horribly wrong. Blind monks are blind, a playstyle that could be dedicated to such a character could be a playstyle that would have to do with revealing enemies ''through his senses'' rather than just being able to teleport everywhere as if he's somehow like Neo from the Matrix Revolutions (third movie). So yeah, I'd really like to lay an emphasis here on the fact that Ryan does not rehaul their philosophy, but he actually holds true to their own values. Three years ago this gap was much wider compared to now, because Riot has stepped up their game, but the moment you rework a grand duelist and still end up giving her an ability that is most effective in a teamfight scenario would yet again be a case of Riot not doing what they say they are trying to do. It's that simple, really! Kay. Gonna quote one of you guys from now on and respond/just add a little sumthin': **SilverSquid: You make Karma's solo lane boring on purpose, to force her into the support role? I don't think many Karma players will appreciate that. Or any, as far as I know.** Perhaps I can be a little more clear than ItemsGuy, he went for the detailled explanation. Here's the thing; this is the nature of a support design. They have to be designed is such a way that they can still be very useful without gold in-come. However, they shouldn't really be able to get a whole lot stronger when they get gold because otherwise they become a very safe and OP compared to champions that do actually need gold. Same reason why Riot was more than happy to kill Soraka midlane. A character that heals a whole lot shouldn't really thrive on gold or being able to function in a lane on her own. Not really getting anything out of going midlane with Redesign Karma is similar to running current Soraka midlane; the two midlaners will both end up not really doing much to each other. So yeah, this is just kind of a matter of how supports have to be designed in a very specific way. Want a support that heals? Sure, but do it in a way that makes it engaging instead of very passive, Soraka does this well right now. Want a support that deals damage? Sure, give the character high base damage, but don't give 'em scaling on their abilities through itemization, etc! @ItemsGuy: This begs the question. How is it that some of your Redesigns could actually function as both support and midlane? I mean, Redesign Soraka and Karma are always going to be that support, just like Alistar, Edmund and what not. But what about Zyra? Isn't she not going to be too strong when in lane, or isn't she going to feel underwhelming compared to other supports if she's actually played as support instead? Please elaborate. **SilverSquid: For some reason I find Sion to be more boring if all he offers thematically is "undead brute" and the bloodshield is gone. In terms of gameplay I would prefer your propositions though.** Gonna do the post I accidentally deleted yesterday (gonna try and make it much shorter, too!): Sion's an undead warrior. Sion should do undead + warrior things, which are two theme's that can fit perfectly in the space that is available for a moba design character (generally a passive and 4 abilities). Delivering on this to the best of your ability is what is going to make the design feel as powerful as it can be in terms of gaming experience, and exploding a magical shield is not really helping with that. And to tell you the truth (something that hasn't really been said by either one of us in this thread so far); there's a reason why Redesign Sion wouldn't feel like current Sion at all. Both Riot and ItemsGuy consider current Sion to be a better design because his kit ties much better together and seems to have more of a defined purpose, instead of his old, scattered design (Do I want to get a little beefy and durable to chop people's head off with my ult (AD) or do I want to stun people and blow them up? (AP)). However, his theming is still a little off, and you can easily discover this by taking a good look at his passive in relation to the rest of his kit. Does his passive tie to his other abilities similar to how Darius's passive ties to all of his abilities all the way to that scary executioning ultimate? Unfortunately, it doesn't. Currently Sion's abilities are all about being able to do stuff right in the enemies face, with his ult enabling him to actually get there. His passive is more random as of now, actually, in terms of gameplay, he just gets to do stuff a little longer even when you've killed him ''because he's undead, you know.'' Thematically it fits really well, but it doesn't really tie to the rest of his kit. But as you might have guessed I'm about to say that it's not the passive here that is the problem, but rather the fact that all his abilities say ''Juggernaut'' only because Riot decided ''we wanted him to be (a juggernaut).'' Sion gets to be a juggernaut because Riot decided they wanted him to be one and do that, similar to how Lissandra got this weird E/teleporting ability because they shoehorned ''we want her to be the initiating mage'' onto her. This goes to show how often they have treated theming more of a cherry on top of the cake rather than the thing that holds the entire kit together. Lissandra's kit is cool and all and definitely works, but it probably shouldn't be on a champion that's supposed to be the (first) ''Ice mage'' of League of Legends. Just as Sion's kit is kind of cool; charging in _really fast_ and then being able to screw over people is fun and all, but is this really something an undead warrior should do? The most characteristic things of the undead are that they are slow and they don't die that easily (zombies don't give a fuck if you snap a finger off of them, they'll keep chasing you, they don't really need limbs to keep going) Currently the only thing that really captures one of these two is his passive, all his other abilities have to do with ''Juggernaut'' which is more of a role within League of Legends rather than a characteristic or thematic aspect. A champion's function shouldn't build up the champion's identity, the identity should imply a fitting function. This is why current Maokai is more of a tree that performs well at the ''tank role'' with his generic *this-is-what-a-tank-needs-in-order-to-funtion-abilities* rather than giving you that ''angry forest'' playstyle that would make sure he'd be able to excell at the tank role in his own way due to the fact he's a strong, sturdy tree. In case of Old Sion: Undead warriors should do undead warrior things. Stunning people and blowing people up magically is more of a wizard-like thing. In case of new Sion: Undead warrior should do undead warrior things, not just charge into people and being able to devastate them. (besides, we always have had Malphite for that! See how his identity/character implies such a playstyle instead of the other way around? Malphite is supposed to be that rolling rock coming at you, building up speed. So that's what he does! And even moreso in [Malphite Redesign](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-malphite-shard-of.html) ) Before Sion was reworked there was a time I actually played him a lot, and I ended up trying to make AD Sion work because it just felt the most fitting to play him that way. Not paying attention to anyone but the enemy carry, trying to charge through the enemy team and getting there eventually to do some chopping felt great, if only Sion had been given the tools to actually be able to do that properly, because as it happened, most of the times when you tried this you ended up being blown to bits yourself. Sure, his stun allowed you to lock someone in place (and the stun couldn't be longer due to the fact that it was ranged) but you were only able to get off about one auto attack on average the moment you actually closed the distance between the range of being able to cast your stun and the point where you were close enough to do auto attacks. Just as his shield was supposed to be a tool were he could charge through the enemy team and take hits more effectively to keep on going, mindlessly walking towards that enemy carry not giving a sh*t about anything (like a true undead, even though limbs are being blown off!), but the ability didn't mean a whole lot for him seeing as you needed AP to actually get the durability you wanted. His old, two-button, AD gameplay was the most ''undead warrior'' he has ever been. Give his old design his new passive and you even have more of an undead warrior: sure, he'd still suck, but atleast you his passive would also reach the same goal: keep on trying to reach that target and getting rewarded for it when you do. Take his current passive and his old AD playstyle, but give him 4 abilities that try to reach this goal, and you have a true undead warrior.[ Redesign Sion](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-sion-undead-champion.html) does this well, even if it is a very simple design, it gives me feelings of nostalgia and has me going: if only I could actually get to that target more effectively back then, before Sion got reworked!
: The sad thing is a lot of the champs that people deem toxic like {{champion:238}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:157}} just to name quite a few is that they all don't fit their theme or their appearance as you said. Why does the Samurai who is focused on having a Katana have a giant wall. Why does Kayle light her sword up and smack you from far away with no animation? Why does Zed who is reliant on shadows and shuriken's have massive AoE? {{champion:6}} in general is near impossible to read (they should at the very least show the missle for tracking actually a missle instead of a knife). I mean I feel like a lot of toxic champs could be fixed using the things that are talked about. Also I feel like they need to maybe do away with the current AP vs. AD system. Why does {{champion:84}} do magic damage for hitting you with blades and heal off it? Why does {{champion:42}} do magic damage vs. any other ADC? I mean {{champion:222}} even fires explosives and does physical damage. I feel like Riot has such a huge pile of things to fix that they would have to focus almost a years worth of updates just to fix about 25-50% of it.
> [{quoted}](name=Jefftiffy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=002a,timestamp=2016-03-24T08:21:20.322+0000) > > I feel like Riot has such a huge pile of things to fix that they would have to focus almost a years worth of updates just to fix about 25-50% of it. Yep! The game is quite a mess! And true that it will take a very long time to fix all of it. Not to mention how, when they do, by then the game is completely different, which only beggs the question; why not create something like a League of Legends 2? As for corki and him dealing both AD and AP damage; this is just some lame implementation of them to ''create more diversity''. Yet the most satisfaction players get out of the uniqueness of a champion has more to do with how the champion actually plays like, and less of what items you should buy when playing that champion. It's a very poor way of dealing with the lack of diversity, really!
ItemsGuy (NA)
: >The strategic diversity you celebrate in HotS does not exist. It's teamfight or bust, any hero must take exclusively teamfight talents, any hero that isn't strong in teamfights (like, well, Abathur and Gazlowe) is not competitively viable. Picking the best heroes is insanely important because there is little individual outplay potential and having bigger numbers in teamfights is the most important thing. This is more of a "the current state of the game is imbalanced" thing than a "strategic diversity does not exist" thing. The options are there, but it's up to the designers to make sure they all have their benefits and drawbacks. Contrast to League, where the vast majority of champions are largely geared towards the same strategy within their role and simply succeed in it to various degrees. >Dota does pull off strategic diversity... at the cost of not actually having much in the way of tactics. It is all about strategy: when to rosh, when to push, when to farm, how many people to assign to each lane. Execution is largely reduced to a reflex test: can I stun and 100-0 the guy before he uses BKB and makes my character irrelevant? It is an amazing spectator sport, but actually playing it in anything less than a highly organised team and trying to strategise is so futile that pub players just pick carries and play for kills. This is mostly part of it being a really, really old game made by people who didn't have over a decade of MOBA history to learn from. While it suffers tactically, it does have a fairly satisfying breadth of variety when it comes to having different heroes contribute to each game in largely different ways depending on who their allies and enemies are. Playing against Lucian doesn't feel much different than playing against any other ADC... >Dota is also marred by unnecessary legacy complexity, just like LoL is burdened by legacy game design choices. Pretty unfortunate, huh! If only League could loosen its shackles with like, a sequel game or something... (Although that didn't necessarily do much for DotA 2 as far as not being beholden to legacy goes. It kind of was around for 10 years before that, though, which may have had something to do with it.) >What would happen in an imaginary game where Maokai would fortify his side of the map with tree turrets, Leblanc had 10 independent illusions, and Quinn was a pet character? We know what would happen, because that's how Dota works. Firstly, you have to strategically assemble a team composition or you have no play and lose by default. If this does not happen, whichever side is better at their strategy than the other side wins. This is why I try not to be as weird and specific as DotA is. Maokai on a defensive team means they can try to force the game into a single lane and slowly push towards the enemy base, while Maokai on an offensive team means the other 4 guys don't have to worry so badly about an initiation going south, since they have someone they can fall back to. It should ultimately be less about "you have to have all the pieces to one of these puzzles or you WILL be sucked" and more about a combination of covering your weaknesses, amplifying your strengths, capitalizing on opponents' weaknesses, and mitigating their strengths. Regardless of who you or your allies are (and with a good item system focused more on strategic flexibility than stat optimization - ZZ'Rot is a good start to this), you should be able to do at least one of these things for your team, and that adds value that you must then play around. >In other words: there would be few close fights between evenly matched champions or teams, no tense laning, no surviving at 5 hp and getting a kill. Champion strengths would be so disparate that the outcome of any conflict is decided before it even starts, depending on which team is playing to their strengths. Zed ganks Heimerdinger? Heimerdinger is a pusher whose entire kit is about building stuff, so his dueling strength would be zero and he is a free guaranteed kill. Kog gets farmed? GG, should have stopped him, game over. It's not rock-paper-scissors here, though - if your strength is someone else's weakness, then their strength is going to be your weakness. Take Jhin vs. Kalista, for example - if Jhin can use the tools he has to keep fights within his window, he can pull ahead, while if Kalista can draw things out for as long as possible, she can create an advantage for herself. Chances are, more often than not, things will end up somewhere in the middle (unless there's a massive skill gap), which is where the close fights an even trades happen. It's a bit more interesting than "we throw our stats at each other and land a skillshot and see who wins," anyway. Also, fallback patterns exist for a reason. If Heimer is worried about Zed ganking, he can opt out of using his structures offensively (to overextend and progress lanes) and instead use them defensively (to hide behind and force Zed to dive through 4 towers instead of 1). Zed still gets rewarded for his offensive pressure by stopping Heimer from pushing like a maniac, and Heimer gets to keep his skin and protect his lane! Also, with Kog, it depends on which one you're talking about. If it's [this Kog](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-kogmaw-mouth-of-abyss.html), then he's still super vulnerable to initiation and fighting out in the open (especially since he no longer explodes!) and isn't great at dueling other carries even if he's a few dozen CS ahead. If it's [the Kog we don't talk about](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/experimental-redesign-kogmaw-mouth-of.html), then stopping him from farming is easier than stopping Veigar from farming, so if you just decide to leave him alone in lane and frolic around the Dragon pit for half an hour, that's kind of on you! >Tl;dr the reason why champions are so similar is because it creates fair fights, and fighting is why people play this game. People don't play to kill the nexus, and would not be interested in a game that eliminates fair fights in favour of making total strangers try to organize and implement unfun strategies like rat doto. That's why Dota fails despite having the same learning curve as LoL and a better engine. Correction: Having champions be so similar creates fair fights among the top 2-4 best champions in their role, because anyone who doesn't do that similar thing as well as those guys isn't strong enough to be competitive. This is why Riot is putting such an emphasis on not only unique input/output, but strategic niche as well - they kind of don't want every game to feel the same, or have only a quarter of the roster be competitively viable (and thus picked damn near every pub game since release - Lee Sin, I'm looking at you) at a time. If Riot wanted a game with similar characters just fighting each other, they would've stopped at the original 40. (League's playerbase would have also stopped at the original 40)
Thank you for replying to the guy. Couldn't have said it better myself! Although I'd like to add; DOTA does not have the same learning curve as LoL. If anthing the skill floors is much, much higher, the learning curve much, much steeper. The first and foremost reason why DOTA doesn't and will not get as popular is probably due to the fact it is way harder to get into. Because in the long run, once you've learned all the crazy stuff that's possible in DOTA, chances are that game is going to be more enjoyable for the vast majority of MOBA players.
: Why League of Legends Isn't As Awesome As It Could Be - @Morello, @Meddler
: Why League of Legends Isn't As Awesome As It Could Be - @Morello, @Meddler
And there I accidentally deleted a pretty long comment -.- zzzz @SilverSquid, I added you, by the way. My name on EUW is ''Perifear''!
: That was a very insightful video, nice work Yaime :). Also, that Items guy is an absolute genius, he would be great working at Riot ^^.
> [{quoted}](name=KingKold93,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=0025,timestamp=2016-03-23T10:26:06.816+0000) > > That was a very insightful video, nice work Yaime :). Also, that Items guy is an absolute genius, he would be great working at Riot ^^. Thank you, man! Don't think I'll ever stop feeling awesome when hearing this! Seriously, thank you. And yes he would/should!
: Why League of Legends Isn't As Awesome As It Could Be - @Morello, @Meddler
> Karma... ItemsGuy has covered this for me! Hope you enjoy reading his replies and be able to make some sense of them. His answers are much better than I could have ever given you. > I am sometimes not sure what needs to make sense in a game of magic. Most caster's abilities in Runeterra don't really get explained, so I guess magic is just something people use to a bigger or lesser extent. Probably even unvoluntarily. I don't know if I would rather remember a Sion with or without a bloodshield. I guess it depends on what exactly you would replace it with. Magic in a competitive MOBA game shouldn't be an excuse to let characters do very random stuff, but rather, let them do stuff that make sense on their character but would be impossible in the real world! > I agree on Quinn's backflip though. Cool! Falconers actually have a pretty hard time getting their falcon to listen to them. What ''magic'' or runeterra as a fantasy/videogame world does for Quinn, is to allow her to be able to have extremely/unrealistically strong communication with her bird Valor. So in League it's totally fine a falconer can be picked up by her shoulders by her birdy and fly around! It fits and therefore it makes sense, eventhough it's a little unrealistic. For this reason Maokai should not be able to do ''random magic stuff'' but rather ''magical stuff that a magical tree would probably do'', which isn't teleporting! > I personally enjoy charging into a fight, doing my things and stuffs... and repeat it 2 minutes later. Just spinning is nice, but thinking about when to engage is also interesting to me. And it becomes more often available lategame, no matter how I build. I guess Garen is a restless fighter, that fights a lot of battles in a war, instead of a single, bloody and glorious one, like Darius. ItemsGuy has explained this way better than I ever could. But I'd like to add; just from a mechanical perspective, all the things a champion does should tie together. All the things Darius does ties together from his passive all the way to his ult. Can't say that for Garen and his passive, Lissandra and her passive, or let's say Kindred, whom has a passive with a very clear purpose, but ends up getting an ult that conflicts with this entirely! > Maybe that's me, but I really like working on my build, adapting to the game and coming up with something that makes sense. Which I enjoy more than just the chaotic first few minutes if people keep getting caught. But hey, people enjoy different things after all. What ItemsGuy said! You probably would like to read the quote by following this link (it's a very short one!): http://imgur.com/KPPZdUg The current lack of strategic diverty makes sure about every game feels very much the same as the game you will play after or the game you had played before. Also while seeing the same champions over and over again, all with the ''best''/same old masteries, items, etcetera. What I meant to say is that if every champion is as unique as he or she could possibly be, the combinations of teamcompositions are endless, and no team composition could ever be ''the best team composition'' ever. This is where you truly have to adapt to every single game instead of having to deal with the status quo. So yeah, get flamed right now if you run something like Alistar Blitzcrank botlane, whereas in ''League of Legends 2'', or a game such as ''DOTA2'', these things are so much more acceptable, because about anything can work/be viable! > I am still sceptical about whether we can remove ALL hurdles from your everyday life's person to watch this without prior knowledge. I have to think about MY mum, and I just can't imagine it. I mean, there is violence in there and how can violence be good, this is stupid, yadayada.... > > And even if you are open to all of this, I think you still have to learn what particles go to which champion, what they mean and following 10 characters you don't know is pretty confusing too. That's why I say in the video: ''Due to the nature of videogames League of Legends might not ever get to be as easy to read as a game of soccer, but this shouldn't be an excuse to not make the game as readable as it could possibly be!'' So despite that fact, it's also a fact that the more you lower the accessibility of a game, by improving on the readability, you improve on the game and allow it to grow! (more people that don't get turned down by the learning curve of the game, more people being able to make more sense of the game whether they know about the game or not, etc,) All this makes sure Riot ends up profiting more. > It's not that I am against the idea of having the game more... well... intuitive to watch, but I am not yet convinced it's something achieveable, or worth sacrificing other things over. What ItemsGuy said! It'd rather be an extra that people who aren't familiar with the game would be able to make more sense of the game. In the first place it's for the players and no sacrifices have to be made! (except if you'd say that removing things that people have grown familiar with would be sacrifices, which Riot has started doing now anyway, so yeah... that's kind of a bummer for some people, eventhough it's for the better of the game) > Oh boy, that's really one stupid passive right there. I mean, it's interesting from a gameplay perspective, but thematically? Does Lissandra want to think about how to spend her powers carefully? I don't think so... Exactly! Lissandra wants to cover the world in ice just as Brand wants to burn the entire planet! Give her a passive that actually matches with the rest of her kit! Instead of ''here, have something that is a little useful, but doesn't really make you give a shit about it at all.'' Btw, yes! I'm from EUW and I added you (this also flashed by on the screen at the very start of the video, hehe!).
: Why League of Legends Isn't As Awesome As It Could Be - @Morello, @Meddler
> Isn't this what you'd expect from Lissandra? Well... no, not if she's supposed to be THE Ice Mage of League of Legends! I mean, sure you can have variations, such as the fact that Brand *could* have been a mage that would deliver you a ''magma/lava'', or ''meteor'' passive. But when you have such a clear theme that can be communicated in a very powerful way, you're probably better off doing that first, because that's what the players want/expect first! Imagine a League where Brand has never existed. Now imagine them releasing a champion that's all about lava/magma, or fiery meteors. People would less likely to go and say: ''Hey, that's cool and all, but where's the ''true fire mage champion'' where I'm able to spread fire and simply, just burn people?'' Whereas if you that meteor or lava/magma champion woud be added to the game right now, people would be more likely to respond with: ''We already have Brand, this champion has it's own niche by, although doing something that has to do with fire, still doing something entirely different. So as an ice mage ''that we've just wanted to be able to dive into the fray and initiate just because we wanted her to do that'' she does this reasonably well, pardoning her un-fucking-readable E for just a moment. But in the sense of ''Ice mage'', I'd probably expect something more like [this. Which is so much more characteristic to the way how ice behaves, or how we've grown familiar with it in terms of videogames/books/stories/very, very cold winters IRL.](http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/03/wip-lissandra-ice-dervish.html) The more input I can get on my beloved Karma, the better :). Already working on my next rework, and two other posts, maybe this can enhance my view in terms of gameplay or broaden my horizon in terms of possibilities. > I'm on EUW I'm from the Netherlands, and, while I'm not the best at topography, I believe this means we're inhabitants on the same continent. hehe
: > Sad thing is that two friends of mine whom I live with ended up commenting: _''Dude, if you had only asked us to help you, we would have.''_ And that would probably resulted in a much better video after all. I think it was Christopher Hitchens (a journalist), who said, that it's a shame that, you usually meet the people at your book presentations, that you should've met before writing the book in the first place. I guess that's the same thing with a lot of stuff. We probably just have to take the input we get and try to incorporate it into our next work. > And that, ultimately, was the point of the video! I was hoping that the information would out-weigh the things the video could drastically be improved upon! Glad that it seems to have worked for you :) I started disliking people using good rethoric over good content. Especially politicians are currently pissing me off. I only judge people based on their ideas and arguments, even though that I am aware, that this is not true for the broad masses. It makes me very conflicted when I try to adress the masses ._. > That said; do you like [Redesign Karma?](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/03/champion-redesign-karma-enlightened-one.html) **Short answer**: nyeos. **Long answer**: I have reworked Karma half a dozen times now and noted down the things people liked about her and some things about gameplay, that I need to avoid. Her old passive is one of them. I currently prefer the version, where she gains extra AP based on the hp she (and her allies) has/have lost in the last few seconds. This makes her more reactionary (punishing aggression) and doesn't encourage running around on low hp. Another thing, that I dislike is the readability of the crest (2 counters?) and the lore impications. Why would she pass around her crest? I know it's kind of a place holder for a beacon, but it's one of the first things I noticed. And also that you wanted her to be a support, and not a midlaner, as has been for years now (but I guess in your reworks you are targetting a different game than today). Lastly, and most importantly; I liked Karma for the duality in her (mantra'd) skills. Adding an opposite aspect, instead of just giving more of the same. A damage spell, that heals affected allies and a shield, that damages enemies (like, actively, not thorns). It gave her the flexibility she was known for, usually at cost of her power... unless you would find situations, in which both aspects could apply (healing multiple allies and enemies at the same time, shielding a core target and dealing damage, etc.) This also gave her the _"wise"_ element, in which you would have to know HOW to apply your spells a lot more, than you do now (well, how do I apply RQ's damage? in their faces, duh). Other than that, I like the overall idea and design, even though some minor details might be problematic. Like the crest only gaining stacks one way (you could let it get 1 stack each for switching targets, for example). This kind of allied based supporting is something that Orianna with her ball and Lulu with Pix just barely miss, thematically. I'd be lovely to have a champion succeeding on that. > Kind of a shame that Karma is pretty much a generic mage right now, the only thing that was really ''karmatic'' about her on her old design was her passive, granting her more exp if you screwed with her and lowered her pretty green health bars. And we both know that passive is gone, too. Well, there was a karmic aspect to her (I have been taught that _"karmatic"_ is wrong, apparently?), a dualistic and an enlightened aspect. Her ally-heal symbolized **good karma** (rewarding hardship), while her shieldbomb and passive represented **bad karma** (punish those preying the weak). **Dualism** was apparant in all her basic spells: damage/heal, speed/slow, shield/damage. Unlike Lulu, she could have both aspects at the same time, making it different from the western meaning of dualism (either/or) and highlighting more the _"understand the wholeness of all things"_ (embrace all) dualism in eastern culture. And lastly her **enlightenment** was symbolized by her mantra and lvl6 abilities. All of this made up Karma's old thematics, all borrowed from asian culture. That being said, I do agree, that her passive didn't quite encourage the kind of behaviour she should have. But her CURRENT passive does even less of it,.. > Fair enough. We'd prefer him to do something that makes him more durable in a brutish, undead warrior kind of way, instead of a magical way, and even though the ability, whether you like it or not, is going to harm the readability of the game because it will always remain a little random and confusing for an undead warrior, it wouldn't be _all that bad_ for keeping it on him for the community's sake. I am sometimes very conflicted with those things, because there also seem to be good arguments for keeping it. In a way, it has become his character, and some "odd" flavour to some designs make champions more interesting in the longrun. Or unique. Just another undead warrior, compared to an undead warrior with an exploding bloodshield? Or let me put it this way; there are a lot more problems that I see, that highlight this problem better, than Sion. Quinn's example was probably one of the best. > However, this actually becomes more of a problem the moment people are attached to things that actually conflict with how Riot wants the game to be; competitive and engaging. I am not sure about that, actually. Some person (gbay99?) once compared LoL to football/soccer. Because it's an everyman's sport, that can become competitive. People like watching it, because they used to play it, when they were younger. It's like your guitar example. Riot is currently trying, as seen by Manamune and Alistar-combo changes, to make competitive and the normal game more alike, instead of just making it more competitive/engaging. I guess making more people play a game, to understand it while watching, makes more sense when building on nerd culture, instead of building a game that everyone can watch (is that feasible?). > For example, a front-line fighter shouldn't want to hide in brushes to regenerate health. A front-line fighter should be in the frontline and be able to stay there for as long as possible, without having to pu$$y out and recharge as if he's some kind of battery. Isn't the argument here, that they wanted to give him the tools of going in, getting his head bashed in, running out, and having good incentives to reenagage as soon as possible? Basically reducing the downtime between his fights. I do agree, that this leads to some funny gameplay, like Bush-Garen. But I think this is also due to the fact, that Garen has problems with gapclosing... which he doesn't have if he can surprise someone. I think Riot's approach of readucing his downtime on higher levels and making him at least charge key targets, while nerfing his overall damage against everyone else, makes sense. Because he is less likely to just camp and jump _anyone_. Oh and Zyra's passive is an abomination in terms of gameplay. Thematically, it at least gets across, that Zyra isn't the person, but the plant. I reckon? But they want to change it in the mage update anyways. > similar to how instead of designing Lissandra around the concept/theme of ''Ice Mage'', they said ''We want her to be able to be an initiating mage'', and then gave her all the tools she needed to be able to do that I mean, at least they had learned, at that point, that champions don't only need a thematic character, but also an ingame one. But out of curiosity.... a "frozen" stun, a root, several slows and a heckton of damage. Isn't this what you'd expect from Lissandra? And isn't her ice-shard travelling trying to get across the way she usually moves.... like, ~~holiday~~ on ice? > PS: You seem nice. Feel free to add me! I'm on EUW :'( > Cheers, and hope ItemsGuy is going to give you a more detailled response in terms of new and old Karma! The more input I can get on my beloved Karma, the better :). Already working on my next rework, and two other posts, maybe this can enhance my view in terms of gameplay or broaden my horizon in terms of possibilities.
> [{quoted}](name=SilverSquid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=002300000000,timestamp=2016-03-22T13:08:56.539+0000) > > I think it was Christopher Hitchens (a journalist), who said, that it's a shame that, you usually meet the people at your book presentations, that you should've met before writing the book in the first place. I guess that's the same thing with a lot of stuff. We probably just have to take the input we get and try to incorporate it into our next work. > Thanks for this one, made me chuckle, cause it's very true. > I started disliking people using good rethoric over good content. Especially politicians are currently pissing me off. I only judge people based on their ideas and arguments, even though that I am aware, that this is not true for the broad masses. It makes me very conflicted when I try to adress the masses ._. Trump for president! lol > This makes her more reactionary (punishing aggression) and doesn't encourage running around on low hp. This is actually something that obviously would have to be adressed if that'd turn out to be the case. Running around as if you're some risky kamikaze pilot is not something Karma should be about. Agreed! > Another thing, that I dislike is the readability of the crest (2 counters?) and the lore impications. Why would she pass around her crest? I know it's kind of a place holder for a beacon, but it's one of the first things I noticed. And also that you wanted her to be a support, and not a midlaner, as has been for years now (but I guess in your reworks you are targetting a different game than today). Her theme quite as abstract as it can be, the crest is pretty readable in terms of gameplay; whoever has the crest will punish you if you attack that target. As for your support/midlaner argument; some just SCREAM that they should be dedicated to a certain role. An undead warrior is probably going to be an aggressive, tanky guy (because you know undead things don't really give a sh*t if they get it with something, they're undead!). ''Karma'' is still an abstract theme but personally my take on the concept is more wise, supportive, and light-hearted in a sense. Creating a midlaner would be more along the lines of: ''KARMA, BITCH!'' I'm really rambling nonsense right now, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say, and I must admit that Karma is a trickier example in this regard. > Lastly, and most importantly; I liked Karma for the duality in her (mantra'd) skills. Adding an opposite aspect, instead of just giving more of the same. A damage spell, that heals affected allies and a shield, that damages enemies (like, actively, not thorns). It gave her the flexibility she was known for, usually at cost of her power... unless you would find situations, in which both aspects could apply (healing multiple allies and enemies at the same time, shielding a core target and dealing damage, etc.) And this would probably be a problem because she would not have defined strengths and weaknesses, if she just ends up being able to do both/all of those things! Also, karma, the what most of actually know about it, is getting something in return for your own actions. Redesign Karma does this because in a pvp game the enemies are going to attack you, and she'll give something in return; punish you for it. When her design would have more of this duality, I this would be more along the lines of a ''Yin-yang'' theme. And considering that theme probably doesn't allow a champion to have very defined strengths and weaknesses (similar to how ''Master of Elements'' is probably a too big theme for a moba game to implement in terms of readability) it would probably not be a very fitting theme for a crystal clear, competitive eSport. > Other than that, I like the overall idea and design, even though some minor details might be problematic. Like the crest only gaining stacks one way (you could let it get 1 stack each for switching targets, for example). This kind of allied based supporting is something that Orianna with her ball and Lulu with Pix just barely miss, thematically. I'd be lovely to have a champion succeeding on that. Every design that has some sort of companion but doesn't actually translate that to the in-game environment in terms of gameplay is watered down and lame! [Lulu Redesign](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-lulu-fae-sorceress.html) is more about that companionship with Pix, doing that in her own way. As for Orianna; her playstyle actually makes quite a lot of sense... just not as a random robot with a random mechanical ball! [But what about a little boy and a puppy/cute little void squid?](http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/02/wip-luka-void-tamer.html) Annie barely doing anything with Tibbers? Kinda lame. [Annie Redesign](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-annie-dark-child.html) gives you that ''big daddy'' and little girl playstyle similar to those creepy couples in Bioshock! They all have some sort of companion, but they're all so very distinct! > Well, there was a karmic aspect to her (I have been taught that "karmatic" is wrong, apparently?) > lol, the more you know! > I am sometimes very conflicted with those things, because there also seem to be good arguments for keeping it. In a way, it has become his character, and some "odd" flavour to some designs make champions more interesting in the longrun. Or unique. Just another undead warrior, compared to an undead warrior with an exploding bloodshield? I hear what you're saying. But the thing is, these unfitting abilities are all so less memorable and iconic _because_ they don't make sense! Imagine a scenario where a League of Legends enthusiast has to explain champions to someone who knows nothing of all the characters and what they are able to do. When having to explain Quinn, the kid that has to explain will probably start off by saying: ''She's able to fly around with her bird! It picks her up and she can fly very fast wherever she wants to go!'' and then, at the end, might end with: ''Oh and, yeah, she does a backflip.'' For this same reason people probably don't feel all fucking excited playing Garen and yelling: ''I'M FUCKING GAREN, BITCHES, I'M NOW GONNA CAMP THIS BRUSH AND WAIT FOR HALF A MINUTE MUAHAHA'' No, they'll probably get this excited when they spin2win the enemy to death, which is actually something very engaging. Brush Garen is funny, but it does not encourage engaging play between two teams. > > Some person (gbay99?) once compared LoL to football/soccer. Because it's an everyman's sport, that can become competitive. People like watching it, because they used to play it, when they were younger. It's like your guitar example. Riot is currently trying, as seen by Manamune and Alistar-combo changes, to make competitive and the normal game more alike, instead of just making it more competitive/engaging. > If this is the case the blame is on Riot with their incompetence to make a competitive engaging game on it's own, no matter what level the 10 players are in a match. ItemsGuy said a lot about this actually with his recent on-going conversation with Dengeden, I think their conversation is a very good read, they've discussed how ItemsGuy is trying to make prolevel games as crazy and wild as summoner level 1 games! > I guess making more people play a game, to understand it while watching, makes more sense when building on nerd culture, instead of building a game that everyone can watch (is that feasible?). Yet... if you were to create a game everyone could watch (such as my mom, right now, will probably see Zyra and think: ''oh, some lady that does ??? things with plants, whereas if she'd see the Redesign Zyra in action she'd actually be like: hey! she's quite the gardener! She grows them, nurtures them, and can move them around similar to how I move my plants from pots to actually a place in the earth in my garden! (she likes doing work in her garden when we have nice weather) ) it would attract even more players! If this were to happen League of Legends could truly be the first game that is recognized as a sport, because about every other sport can just be viewed as easily as a game of soccer! It what makes 'em popular! > Isn't the argument here, that they wanted to give him the tools of going in, getting his head bashed in, running out, and having good incentives to reenagage as soon as possible? Basically reducing the downtime between his fights. Except this applies for every champion! Darius has a passive encouraging him to stay in fights for a longer time so he can build stacks, gets rewarded for it by his ult! He doesn't get to have a health-regen passive because his playstyle is about actually staying IN the fight. Garen should have a unified playstyle as well, and his four abilities do that perfectly, just his passive doesn't. Not to mention how this passive is much less noticable and effective after laning phase so that waters his design down, too. A passive shouldn't just ''die off'' or gets less effective. It should be the starting point of the kit. Not just some random thing. Garen regenerating is pretty random and generic. Just as all those ''free mana (costs)'' passives, like Lissandra passive. > Oh and Zyra's passive is an abomination in terms of gameplay. Yup! And it should actually be tied to the rest of the kit! Gonna continue in another comment, otherwise wouldn't be able to finish due to character count!
: I think I had goosebumps during your video. Twice. I mean, the editing is quite bad, and reading from the desk makes you kind of un-immersive, but your points, man, your points were spot on. Aaaaand I was also in the video. Holy elo-hell, I did a thing and it was in a youtube video, I don't think I can handle that (_"What's so Karma about Karma"_ was written by me). Anyways, I mostly agree on your points, even though I disagree on a few smaller concepts. For example, Sion's shield. I think it's drastically harder to rework a champion, compared to when you create a new one. Because you always have to mind the original concept and try to not alienate the fans the character had. While I do agree that the magic shield was unnecessary or even weird, I think it's readable enough and fills a more fitting role. In a way I prefer Riot to slowly work towards what you describe, but still mind the identity of some characters. And this is where I adress my main point. I am one of the Karma mains, that were rather pissed off at the [5.10 changes](http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/05/patch-510-notes.html) (removal of shieldbomb), or as some Old Karma fan's called it _"the murdering of the last aspect reminiscent of Karma"_. You seem to be highly invested into gamedesign and probably as much in love with this game as I am (and even share some disgruntledness with recent design decisions). So, I would very humbly ask you for your opinion on Karma, in general and specifically on 5.10. I know you probably have better stuff to do. But then again, you too write walls of texts like me, and enjoy unhealthy doses of forum discussions. Soooooooooo, I thought I'd take the chance^^. Pls notice me Yaime-sama {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
> I think I had goosebumps during your video. Twice. This comment gave me goosebumps. I'm not joking. > I mean, the editing is quite bad, and reading from the desk makes you kind of un-immersive, This is what happens when I feel I have to kind of rush things because I get the feeling ''NOW REALLY IS THE TIME TO GET THIS OUT THERE!'' I'm not the best at editing, has been the first time again since years that I've made a video, and the first time ever I've made a video like this, actually, but yeah. As for me reading from the desk and sometimes looking down; this sucked, the script was too hard and too long, consisting out of too many tongue twisters if you had to be speaking as fast as I needed to, to not let the video drag on for much longer than for how long it already is. Sad thing is that two friends of mine whom I live with ended up commenting: ''Dude, if you had only asked us to help you, we would have.'' And that would probably resulted in a much better video after all. > but your points, man, your points were spot on. And that, ultimately, was the point of the video! I was hoping that the information would out-weigh the things the video could drastically be improved upon! Glad that it seems to have worked for you :) > > Aaaaand I was also in the video. Holy elo-hell, I did a thing and it was in a youtube video, I don't think I can handle that ("What's so Karma about Karma" was written by me). HOLY BALLS. I WAS ACTUALLY WONDERING IF SOMEONE WOULD AT SOME POINT NOTICE HIS POST AND BE LIKE: Hey! That was me! Now I hope we can both get even more proud and feel even more glorious by praying this video is going to blow up at some point. I mean, even 20k+ views would make me a very happy man. (sidejoke: roommate is going to get me a lil present if I get over 50k views within 6 months) That said; do you like [Redesign Karma?](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/03/champion-redesign-karma-enlightened-one.html) Back in the days when there were discussing what direction they needed to take with her we really tried our best to communicate things with the players on the forums as well with Riot. Can't say that it worked. Kind of a shame that Karma is pretty much a generic mage right now, the only thing that was really ''karmatic'' about her on her old design was her passive, granting her more exp if you screwed with her and lowered her pretty green health bars. And we both know that passive is gone, too. > Anyways, I mostly agree on your points, even though I disagree on a few smaller concepts. For example, Sion's shield. I think it's drastically harder to rework a champion, compared to when you create a new one. Because you always have to mind the original concept and try to not alienate the fans the character had. While I do agree that the magic shield was unnecessary or even weird, I think it's readable enough and fills a more fitting role. In a way I prefer Riot to slowly work towards what you describe, but still mind the identity of some characters. Fair enough. We'd prefer him to do something that makes him more durable in a brutish, undead warrior kind of way, instead of a magical way, and even though the ability, whether you like it or not, is going to harm the readability of the game because it will always remain a little random and confusing for an undead warrior, it wouldn't be _all that bad_ for keeping it on him for the community's sake. However, this actually becomes more of a problem the moment people are attached to things that actually conflict with how Riot wants the game to be; competitive and engaging. For example, a front-line fighter shouldn't want to hide in brushes to regenerate health. A front-line fighter should be in the frontline and be able to stay there for as long as possible, without having to pu$$y out and recharge as if he's some kind of battery. It's the same reason why Zyra's old passive is going to be removed; her old passive was a stand-a-lone feature on her kit, didn't really mash well with her other 4 abilities, and just only meant something to her when she died. However, these passives that trigger something on death should also be fitting on the character. [Such as an undead warrior rising up from the ground, forcing you to take him down once more](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-sion-undead-champion.html). [Or a barbarian going on for just a little longer than you'd actually want him to, before he greets Death and takes off with him.](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-tryndamere-barbarian.html) But most importantly, it doesn't fit Zyra's play-pattern: she's all about dropping them AoE damage right now and she can't do that when she's dead, so it conflicts. Zyra has a passive that does something for her when she dies, which is something she's going to want to avoid at all costs anyway. Whereas with Redesign Tryndamere, ofcourse, you wouldn't want to die either, but his barbarian nature makes him want to get into the fray and risk it, going all-in, and even if he ends up falling, it still isn't the end of the world because he's able to go on for just a little longer which his character is all about besides that Redesign passive! So sure, arguably, if some designs or abilities would really have to be pardoned (this is more than a ''what if'' of course, instead of ''ItemsGuy and I would really support this decision), Sion's W would kind of be okay. However, as for things the players have grown attached to but just isn't really healthy for the game, such as health-regenerating brush Garen, those just can't really be pardoned. The kit of a champion should work towards one goal, and if Zyra should be about her plants and doing stuff with them/growing stuff with them, giving her a passive that allows her to do something when she dies probably isn't a very smart thing. All of Garen's abilities encourage him to be at the front-line,[ so his passive should to](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-might-of-demacia.html), this is all for making League of Legends a better game, even if this change would mean we'd have to say goodbye to brush Garen! > And this is where I adress my main point. I am one of the Karma mains, that were rather pissed off at the 5.10 changes (removal of shieldbomb), or as some Old Karma fan's called it "the murdering of the last aspect reminiscent of Karma". I feel a little sad sometimes I didn't really get to play old Karma (she was one of those champions for me that you just never saw and never touched yourself, like what Karma used to be to thousands of other players as well), but now taking her rework into account, I'm not so sure if I should be as sad about it. > You seem to be highly invested into gamedesign and probably as much in love with this game as I am (and even share some disgruntledness with recent design decisions). So, I would very humbly ask you for your opinion on Karma, in general and specifically on 5.10. I know you probably have better stuff to do. But then again, you too write walls of texts like me, and enjoy unhealthy doses of forum discussions. > > Soooooooooo, I thought I'd take the chance^^. > Pls notice me Yaime-sama Ryan, could you this one for me? Hope he'll give you his two coins regarding what Karma should be and how incredibly hard they F'ed up with her rework. And for me, all I can really say is: her rework doesn't have a theme, not at all. It doesn't revolve around a concrete, defined goal, or something that is characteristic to her character. The approach they took was this; Old Karma is bad and doesn't work, let's make her into a mage that is able to function and be viable while keeping her mantra system in tact (similar to how instead of designing Lissandra around the concept/theme of ''Ice Mage'', they said ''We want her to be able to be an initiating mage'', and then gave her all the tools she needed to be able to do that, which resulted in her being able to randomly teleport to the position of her ice claw ''because we just wanted her to be able to dive into the fray''. She's not ''Karma'' in the sense of the word and concept of Karma itself, which we'd like to think is what Karma should be to League of Legends. Instead they took Karma and turned her into ''Mage that functions with mantra system.'' They're just three random, generic, arbitrary ''mage'' abilities which you can empower every now and then to make them even stronger and give them an additional effect. Now, this does sound like it could be very cool, but it just ends up feeling very lame when the abilities have nothing to do with the character it was shoehorned on! PS: You seem nice. Feel free to add me! I do play a game every now and then, playing champions I feel are less aweful (currently in sort of an affair with Darius so to speak) Cheers, and hope ItemsGuy is going to give you a more detailled response in terms of new and old Karma! He's capable of expressing his thought way more clearly, also because he breathes champion design. I just ''get it'', it's easy for me to conclude whether something is good or bad, or what should be changed, or provide solutions (fun fact: I came up with Yorick Redesign, after I knew ItemsGuy didn't really know what to do with him yet, back in the days), it's harder for me to explain exactly why. Which is to say, I still can, but ItemsGuy just does it a whole lot better!
ItemsGuy (NA)
: (Note: I know this is in response to Yaime's post, but involves a lot of game design matters that I feel I can accurately address.) >sion having a magical nature is given to his kit. if you want to look at this in a separate light, think about this, the only skill in sions kit that doesn't involve him using pressure generated in his soul furnace is him slapping his axe against the ground. his w is obvious, his e is a gust of air, not him actually throwing something, and his ult surrounds him in the same affect as his w. This is probably a point I should've made in the previous reply, but even when "necromatic magic" is being used in his kit outside of his W, it's being done in a way that is somehow connected to brute force. He uses it to come back to life and punch you to death, slam into your team, crush the earth (as the red particles exist on his Q), and punt minions. If his W was still a defensive ability that involved him, say, swinging his axe wildly in front of himself to mitigate frontal damage for a few seconds (while dealing damage to enemies in his way with each swing), and used the red magic to extend the hitbox a bit - like how Braum summons a big, solid, shield-like ice wall as an extension of his big, solid, shield-like shield - then it would make perfect sense! But creating a magic bubble that explodes on its own is pretty out of place. Might make more sense on a [caster-style tank](http://lolchampdesigns.blogspot.com/2013/01/original-champion-ankhaten-sand-king.html), though... Like, it's cool for champions to have magic! It's a really fun and simple way to explain how they can do such extreme things, but it's also important to limit this vague and fantastic power, so that it acts as an extension of the champion's theme, not as an addendum that needs explanation. For instance, the [Maokai redesign](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2012/12/champion-redesign-maokai-twisted-treant.html) uses magic to let Maokai do cool tree-like things, like enrich the soil under himself, create magic saplings, quickly spread his roots, etc. Having Maokai, say, smash the ground and slow people is cool, but honestly? Anyone could do that. If I lock in Maokai, I want to do things that only the Twisted Treant could do. That just makes sense to me, you know? >it all ties together. you need to think a bit about it, but he still feels like a crazy undead juggernaut with it. I won't argue that having a mechanic that allows you to take more damage doesn't feel somewhat juggernaut-y, but I can say for certain that an exploding bubble isn't the best solution. Abstract problems call for creative solutions, and "just keep the bubble shield because players like it/are used to it" isn't much of one, as reasonable as it may be. >Through gameplay and design, you can tell cait is not just a normal, generic sniper. she uses a net, and has bear traps. the tip off however is that she isn't dressed for wilderness, but she has things used for trapping, and based on her dialogue she isn't insane, or at least she doesn't seem it, so having things used for trapping and being sane in a city. who does that most? police. it requires some logical leaps, but overall it's pretty solid, and its not so loose as to make you wonder. But you see, you still have to explain all of this. Not only do you have to tell me that Caitlyn, who just looks like a steampunk sniper (considering her only visual elements in her splash and in-game model are her outfit and weapon), is a sheriff...you also have to explain to me that she's the kind of sheriff that uses nets and bear traps, which are used for hunting animals. These are both leaps of logic her design forces the player to take, and none of them really help her feel like League's Resident Sniper or League's Resident Sheriff. She's just a chick that mostly uses her sniper rifle like a hunting rifle and uses hunting tools to keep herself away from her enemies, who she'd want to chase after and catch if she were a proper sheriff. Maybe this would be less of a problem if League wasn't a competitive game and didn't have 130 playable characters and wasn't isometric and zoomed the hell out, but it is! The game's context is the box it resides within, and it's the job of the designers to think within that box and innovate so that even crazier ideas can fit inside it, such as using central ideas and mechanics to ground champions with abstract themes - for example, a "Wandering Caretaker" who both wanders and takes care of people...[for the most part](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.com/2013/11/champion-redesign-bard-wandering.html). >characters with 8 abilities is all fine and good, but a master of the elements character would seem to be watered down in comparison to a specialist, and really that makes perfect sense. > >who is more skilled with a sword, the man that trained ten years with a sword, or the man who trained two years with a sword, two years with a hammer, two years with an axe, two years with spear, and two years with a bow. The thing is...why would you want to play as a watered down anything? Why would you want a "master of elements" who isn't a master of any of those elements, and whose fire powers are birthday candles compared to Brand's raging inferno? League doesn't have room for characters who don't provide amazing and specific experiences (and amazing and specific gameplay, strategic niches, etc.), because it is the game that it is. League is limited by the qualities that define it, and even if you think it might be cool to have everything at once, you can have a bit of a couple things at most. >there are a load of bounty hunter style champions. mostly bilgewater, but yeah. I'm sure a proper bounty hunter will surface, but don't think that trying to imagine someone who is not a bounty hunter should be. mf is NOT a bounty hunter, not anymore. in fact, she was never really a bounty hunter, it was more of a side thing, with her major plot being about the killing of her parents killer, gp, which she failed at spectacularly. also, her spot has been swapped with gp anyway. Why would we have a bounty hunter when we already have Miss Fortune, The Bounty Hunter? What is Miss Fortune supposed to be if not a Bounty Hunter? A person with two guns? We already have Lucian for that. It's fine and good to explain what her lore is to me, but I'm not sure if I'd lock in as her because I wanted to play as "Miss Fortune, The Redhead Who Was Kind Of A Bounty Hunter On The Side Who REALLY Wanted To Just Kill Gangplank But Failed Spectacularly At It, Also Her Spot Has Been Swapped With Gangplank Anyway." >this is my argument for zilean. watch until you understand. Bruh, that's one of my favorite videos. Memes aren't a compelling argument for game design, however! >and really, if you notice most of the changes riot makes aren't bad. they make some awful ones, but for the most part the changes are pretty good. the poppy rework was good it kept her character feel the same, while enhancing it and letting her do the role she was meant to do. same with sion, and fiora, and darius and garen both got good changes recently. I'm not saying I'm not happy with Riot's recent changes - I'm not saying they're not good, I'm saying they're not good _enough_ (by Riot's own standards, at least). Even with champions/reworks that introduce some really cool mechanics or involve gameplay patterns that feel super characteristic, there's always a disconnect somewhere (such as Jhin's Q or Fiora's team heal, for example).
> [{quoted}](name=ItemsGuy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-22T01:06:41.791+0000) >But you see, you still have to explain all of this. Not only do you have to tell me that Caitlyn, who just looks like a steampunk sniper (considering her only visual elements in her splash and in-game model are her outfit and weapon), is a sheriff...you also have to explain to me that she's the kind of sheriff that uses nets and bear traps, which are used for hunting animals. These are both leaps of logic her design forces the player to take, and none of them really help her feel like League's Resident Sniper or League's Resident Sheriff. She's just a chick that mostly uses her sniper rifle like a >hunting rifle and uses hunting tools to keep herself away from her enemies, who she'd want to chase after and catch if she were a proper sheriff. Haven't even thought about that, actually! If she were truly a sheriff, she would actually want to catch the bad guys instead of just run and stay away from them, right? But then again... We realize that the only reason these traps and this net is on her design is to let her be able to distance herself from her enemies, because you know... She has a sniper and is the most effective at long distance! With this our point is kind of proven, I suppose. She's neither a full fledged sniper, because she ends up laying traps and shooting nets, but she's neither a true sheriff at the same time, because of these sniper-esque skills which encourage her to rather stay far away from her enemies than actually catching 'em!
: you see, that is false, he calls sions soul furnace not unique, and claims that quinn should not be able to backflip because she is a falconer. I want a zyra that uses plants, a mf that is a wombo queen, and a zilean that is an old man that can't be killed. I have grown attached to these characters, and what they do as well.
> you see, that is false, he calls sions soul furnace not unique Oh, no, I don't mean to say this! The ability is fairly unique, but my point is that it just shouldn't be on a character that is an undead warrior with a big axe! An undead warrior with a big axe should do ''undead-warrior-with-a-big-axe-stuff'', and the fact that his shield has more of a magical nature doesn't fit his theme and conflicts with the point of the core of his character; a brutish, undead, juggernaut with a battle axe. > and claims that quinn should not be able to backflip because she is a falconer. Exactly! Riot states in the following video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs1yD8m2fvE&t=2m30s) that they want you to be able to look at the splash art of a champion and already get a good gist of what the champion is going to do. This means that, although you could tell me Caitlyn is not just a sniper but ''a sherrif of piltover'', not only would that be misleading, but also a simple case of burden of knowledge, as you'd force me to read her lore in order to be able to understand why instead of being all about using a sniper rifle, she also gets to lay down traps and shoot with a net! Sion is an undead warrior with an axe, the moment you give him an ability that is not in line with this theme is the moment you water the experience of the design down, which brings me to my next point: Falconers doing backflips is most certainly an issue! Locking in an undead warrior with an axe and finding out he has an ability which has nothing to do with being undead or his weapon of choice is misleading. Just as misleading as finding out a man in full metal armor does magic damage and steals your ghost, or falconers doing backflips! Selecting a falconer and finding out it ends up doing a backflip would be similar to going to the movies to see Deadpool, but finding out that they've cut out 15 minutes of Deadpool film and replaced it with 15 minutes of Kung Fu Panda. Now whether you like Kung Fu Panda or not is besides the point! You go to the movies to see deadpool, so anything that has nothing to do with deadpool will water down the (deadpool) experience. Just as a falconer doing backflips. Not to mention how it harms the readability and accessibility of the game. To clarify myself once more, I'll use a personal experience, a little conflict I used to have with ItemsGuy, the man himself: I used to be a big fan of Invoker in DOTA2, but when I found out he's one of the most horrendous, burden of knowledge, designs you could possibly make for a competitive game that demands to be readable and wants to become a sport, I figured I should simplify a character like him in order to have him function in League, so that was what I set out to do! What I came up with was this; a ''master of the elements'' champion. This champion's passive would represent one element, let's say, Air, his Q would be an ability that represented water, his W represented Earth, his E represented fire. Now, when you'd get your R at level 6 is where the invoker-esque mechanic would come in: hitting your R would put the master of elements champion in some sort of avatar-state, where you'd have a few seconds to decide which ultimate ability you were going to cast. Pressing your R and then Q would cast an ultimate that had the characteristics of how a huge ''water ultimate'' could function, such as Nami ult, hitting R + W would give you an earth ultimate, R + E fire ultimate, R + R would give you an air ultimate. Well, I finished everything and tought I was a genius, however, not long after I was done ItemsGuy made me realize how there was something inherently wrong about my design; wasn't it a little stupid that a champion called the ''master of elements'' could do less wind-like stuff than Janna? Less water-like stuff than Nami? Less fire-like stuff than Brand? Less earth-like stuff than Malphite? Sure, he could do all of them, but just a little. Wouldn't a master of the elements want to be as good at all the elements at the same time, just as good as Janna, Nami, Brand and Malphite are at their element individually? Well, you could do that, but then you truly end up with an Invoker-character, that has way too many abilities for a game that is supposed to be very readable! Designing a master of elements champion with a passive and four abilities (or in my own case, a passive, three abilities and one ultimate that could be 4 different spells, so technically eight abilities) will only water the design down (pun intended), whereas if you'd truly stick to the theme you'd overload his kit because the theme is just to big in it's nature for a MOBA game where playable characters will generally have about 4 abilities. Whereas in an MMORPG, where there is way more room for abilities, this could work amazingly well, such as Guildwars 2's elementalist class! Sometimes the things a single champion does are very cool, yet more often than not all these things will water each other down because there is only room for a limited amount of abilities. This means that anyone who really likes falconing wouldn't really enjoy Quinn doing backflips, just as someone who'd really be into playing as an acrobat would probably prefer a champion that is entirely dedicated to delivering on this ''acrobat playstyle'', rather than a falconer champion that happens to do agile stuff ''because we thought it was cool.'' > I want a zyra that uses plants We want this, too! That's why now, and three years ago, we are saying that Zyra should be less of a ''generic AoE'' mage, and more of a plant mage whose kit is more about delivering on this plant playstyle rather than a generic-AoE-mage kit most of the mages in League of Legends have become a victim of (most of them having the same, generic, shoehorned playpattern which is the following: hit cc ability, follow up with the rest of your abilities: Annie, Brand, Zyra, Lux, Vel'Koz, Xerath and probably more all fit in this category). Fortunately Riot has finally acknowledged too that it is a problem the power of Zyra's kit isn't really focused on her kit, but they're more of an addition, so now a rework in the works that'll make sure her plants become more of a focus. Just like[ Redesign Zyra](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-zyra-rise-of-thorns.html), one of ItemsGuy's designs! She's all about dem plants over there! > a mf that is a wombo queen MF is supposed to be the Bounty Hunter of League of Legends. As of right now, she's just a pirate-chick that shoots canonballs. And while this is cool, it isn't really readable or doesn't provide a unified goal for her or offering a distinct playstyle, which means that not only does it harm the accessibility of the game, but also the variety, which in results damages the strategic diversity. [Redesign Miss Fortune](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-miss-fortune-bounty.html) might do the trick though? Although perhaps the character wouldn't be as interesting as before for the people that would prefer to shoot canonballs! Then maybe a bounty hunter character just isn't something for them, but perhaps [Redesign Gangplank](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-gangplank-saltwater.html) could fulfill this emptiness! > and a zilean that is an old man that can't be killed. I'm not sure if you are very familiar with all the discussion around him and everything Riot has said about him before he got some adjustments to his kit (mainly his Q), but, a problem he has as a champion is that his ult is so powerful that it demands all of his other skills to be considerably weaker, which feels pretty lame. Not to mention how he has a very bad reputation at Riot for the fact that he provides very poor counterplay, especially before the Q changes. [Redesign Zilean](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/02/champion-redesign-zilean-chronokeeper.html), for one, is one of my favourite support redesigns that just truly deliver on giving you that time-bender playstyle. Seriously, check it out, everything makes so much more sense! > I have grown attached to these characters, and what they do as well. We understand and this is very reasonable! This is why three years ago we admitted that the changes we propose are probably better fit in a different game rather than doing it to current League of Legends, a game we like to call ''League of Legends 2''. Unfortunately, for the likes of you lot, Riot hasn't come to this conclusion and has already started revamping the game, Brand, Malzahar, Zyra, Vladimir, etc, they're all in for reworks and just like the Sion rework, there's a chance you will barely be able to recognize them and their old gameplay! It's for the better of the game, but yes, it will be a bummer for some people who have grown really attached to these old characters and their mechanics, even if their designs are inconsistent & unhealthy for the game.
: this had too many words. pick one issue at a time. Edit: I'm dumb, didn't see the video. ignore me.
> [{quoted}](name=macromite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-03-18T03:17:39.891+0000) > > this had too many words. pick one issue at a time. > > Edit: I'm dumb, didn't see the video. ignore me. Did you end up watching it? I'm curious! The video is also pretty long, though. As you might have noticed.
ItemsGuy (NA)
: Anywho, picking up where I left off! >I, as a player, am legitimately struggling to continue playing this game BECAUSE IT IS SHIFTING TOWARDS YOUR FOCUS. Pre-rework fiora was my second most played character during season 5 prior to her rework, simply because I can focus on playing league, not my champion. I don't know, man - kind of defeats the point of having a really, really, really big roster if you only want there to be one playable character. Maybe you'd have a better time with TF2 or Overwatch? Ah, wait, shit, the characters are too different...Maybe [Nidhogg](http://www.nidhogggame.com/)? It's really good! (I know I'm being a bit facetious here - although it really does look like the game you want and the kind of game League is set up to be are not the same game. Every game has a target audience, and it's alright to not be part of that target audience - I'll never be a big CoD player, for example, as I'm quite shit at aiming.) >In terms of microgame, oh, the game is THRIVING, trading and laning are extremely dynamic and each matchup is unique with every champion having a lot of impact during the laning phase. This is good to hear! I think it could be better and more interesting, though, and I'd like to see what it could be at its best. That's why I do what I do! >The reason why people are disliking league, myself included, is because you can't be the good league player, you can only be the good midlane control mage main, or the good toplane tank main. You gave some stellar advice earlier in your post, in regards to mastering creep denying and CS: "My response to that arguement is 'git gud'." You *are* playing League of Legends, after all. You are playing a hybrid strategy-action game with a massive roster, so thinking you can get away with only the bare-bones mechanics is a little silly, don't you think? It's like wanting to be a good tennis player, but only wanting to learn how to serve the ball. From what you're saying, you seem like a pretty skilled player - probably more skilled than I am, considering how well you can deal with the craziness of DotA. I don't think it's outside of your capabilities as a player to learn how to play more than one champion. I believe in you! >You win when 3/5 players do their job and win lane hard on a champions that snowball for easy kills. This is the metagame for anything below platium elo, which I want to say is somewhere around 85% of the playerbase. You cannot rely on towers, you cannot rely on sustained damage dealers, you cannot rely on a lategame hypercarry, none of it matters. This is something I'm displeased with, honestly. Should you be able to win lane hard and snowball? Sure - but there are so many other ways to win in the game, and something is wrong if they aren't all at least similarly prevalent. If a tower can't be relied on to fulfill its purpose, then what's the point of having it in the game? Anyway, hopefully all of this clears up at least some things for you. Please let me know if I was hazy in any of my explanations, however!
Thank you for responding to him for me, buddy! {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-popcorn}}
Dengeden (EUW)
: > If a strategy is so powerful that it edges other strategies out, if the game enters a state where hard CC and burst aren’t just as relevant as any other tool in the right hands, then that's on the designers to fix. Beyond balance (which I'm not too good at beyond adding the levers that people who are good with numbers can use), I hope that's something I can address with champion design! I dunno man, if you look at LCS, there's always that handful of champions that dictate organized 5v5. Let's hope that circle can be broken. If you look at soloQ, anything is possible ;) > I'd say, without the clunky controls, without all the weird technical stuff like denying and creep stacking, without all the crazy items and extremely unforgiving mechanics, look at DotA2. But that's the thing, isn't DotA so versatile because of all that weird and OP crud? In LoL there are often (min. 90% of the time) very clear, definite and permanent objectives (usually damage on towers and CS; dragon and baron to varying extents), which leads to players picking the best champions to obtain/deny/steal them. Not that they don't exist in DotA but I feel like it has more ways to fight for objectives and more objectives in general. LoL's gameplay on the other hand has a more telegraphed flow. If you meet certain criteria (waveclear and wards, mostly), you pretty much don't have to worry about losing out. >This is a game where damn near every hero is niche, every hero has some reason to be picked over others in its role, even if those others are numerically "stronger" or easier to do well with. Isn't it also because counterpicks are a *lot* more clearcut than in LoL? > (And by that I mean that you're going to have to deal with strengths and weaknesses no matter who you play, so no individual champion would warrant any more special treatment than anyone else in order to succeed) I fear that again, players who want to win will be more concerned with what the most riskfree strategy is, not what niche champion best fits during that stage in the draft phase. > It also leads to some pretty cool stuff! It's one of my favorite things about [designing MOBA heroes](http://www.ryanmelley.com/#!original/cghg), honestly. It's about finding those thematic overlaps to keep things cool but also simple! :) Have at it, they're very enjoyable reads. > If it's more to do with the actual gameplay, I'd say he's more in line with current Quinn (even with the backflip, which he had before it was cool ;_; ), in that he's actually quite frail, but [he] can either. ;_; I'm still a bit ambivalent about him. The ability to itemize defensively as well as offensively early on is very powerful (at least in the state the game is currently in). Your Zyra rework is excellent, still the same kind of plant-centric disengage mage that I know and love, only more plant-centric.
> Your Zyra rework is excellent, still the same kind of plant-centric disengage mage that I know and love, only more plant-centric. > Just wanted to pop in and say Redesign Zyra is one of my favourites! Also, thank you for sticking around and having this discussion, man. I've really enjoyed reading your posts as well as ItemsGuy's replies. In fact, you made me rethink some of his Redesigns, and some I like even more now!
Iqqi (NA)
: Way too long. Didnt read.
Just wanted to say, [there's also a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdbnxoxBTKg), if watching something is more your thing!
ItemsGuy (NA)
: Now, I certainly won't say that a fantasy world has to 100% make sense. I don't understand how half the Stands in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, but I can't say it isn't a damn fun read! League of Legends, however, is a fast-paced competitive game with well over 100 characters, so it might be good if players can look at any one of those characters (or more likely than not, the other 9 that are in any given match with them) and get the basic gist. Alistar being a magic bull (or "minotaur" in this case) should mean that he does bull stuff but cooler than bulls do it, Quinn should do cool falcon stuff that real falconers can't do (like flying with Valor or having such strong communication with him - as an ex-falconer, I can say that birds of prey just kind of do what they want!), and so on. Anivia - I agree with you on this one, although I think something along the lines of designing her more after a secretary bird while having her use her wings to whip up arctic winds could be a solution to her that doesn't require giving her mobility. That being said, there are a thousand "cryophoenix" kits that could work, and for instance, something like Aurelion Sol's W -> E combo could make sense and be pretty cool on her. Annie - This is actually a big gripe I have with Annie and Brand! Fire can do a lot of cool things, but freezing people in place isn't one of 'em. Azir - His huge mobility in general kind of plays at odds with his territorial gameplay (he should be strong where is soldiers are at the cost of not really being able to move around that much); that, and he seems like he should always want to keep his enemies on the other side of his soldiers. Blitzcrank - I'd actually say that something along the lines of kicking into overdrive and then having to cool down makes sense for any mechanical thing (think of opening up 20 big programs on your computer and then having to let the fans cool it off for a while). As well, having to suffer for momentary mobility makes sense as the kind of mobility a large champion would have (granted it makes sense that they'd be moving, so something like that on Maokai or Yorick wouldn't make sense due to theming). That being said, huge mobility on a champion with a long-range pull is't great, considering that the intended counterplay to that is moot when Blitz can rapidly position for it (or just run up to you and lose it). Mundo - Also this! It's just kind of random. Ekko - Stealing speed makes sense (slowing enemies down and speeding them up), but yeah, the time zone is really mechanically contrived and unintuitive in how it works, even though it makes sense from a purely mechanical perspective (get a more powerful effect when you take risks etc.). Evelyn - I know, right! Why does a sneaky assassin have an ult that's most effective against the exact thing she wants to steer clear of? (This thing being clustered up groups of high-health enemies) Ezreal - I'd argue that any mobility Ezreal has could be attributed to him being a "magical explorer" - that being said, a little blink is a really lame version of that, and champs like Bard and Aurelion Sol feel more like explorers than he does. He's less *The Prodigal Explorer* and more *The Prodigal Guy Who Shoots Magic Stuff*. Fiddlesticks - Doesn't really make sense for a scarecrow, huh! They're meant to scare people away, not stick a *straw* in them and suck 'em dry. Fizz - I'd attribute that to him "dodging" attacks by jumping on his pole weapon (like how Vlad dodges attacks by turning into blood or Yi dodges attacks by moving really fast), but then that brings the question why a fish-themed champion is doing that (rather than being slippery for more fish-like reasons, like slipping out of CC). Gangplank - Oranges are good for your health! Maybe I've played too many video games, but I don't think it's a stretch to associate eating food with some sort of heal or positive buff. It doesn't seem to have much to do with the rest of his kit (being a tricky, underhanded pirate) beyond meme status, though.... Gnar - I think it's more of a mechanical thing - the important thing here is that he's doing this damage by constantly hitting people with his boomerang, which is the thematic aspect. It also makes sense, I suppose, that Mini Gnar does consistent damage that is dangerous when ignored but not especially devastating on its own (and having him be able to deal competitive damage to tanky targets without % health damage would mean he'd absolutely blow up squishies, which might work for Mega Gnar, but not Mini Gnar).
Also: Janna - [she should be all about giving you that wind(storm) playstyle, speeding up allies and blowing enemies away!](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-janna-storms-fury.html) Redesign Janna does just that and no longer grants allies AD ''just because, she's a support!'' [Redesign Janna](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-janna-storms-fury.html) is still able to furfil that support role, but actually by doing stuff that makes more sense and fits with her character!
SHlTBUG (NA)
: I've gotta say, I'm really surprised by the 3 replies I've gotten from you two today. It really cleared up a lot of things, and I looked into what you are doing a bit more. My opinion now is that you are doing really good work and have a lot of good points. League isn't as awesome as it could be, and you've clearly done amazing stuff here. I still don't think that League is dying, because that implies that it is getting worse whereas I'm pretty sure both you and Yaime have said it's getting better. You've successfully converted me though, and I have a ton of respect for you guys. Keep it up. By the way, for some context: The reason I try to defend Riot whenever I can is that these Boards are too often filled with mindless hate on Riot or people who complain yet don't understand the way things are. I end up getting too far on the Riot side sometimes, but it's just because I don't like the flame. You two have clearly done a ton of work and know what you are doing, though.
: > [{quoted}](name=ItemsGuy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=000500010000000000000001,timestamp=2016-03-18T15:44:20.270+0000) > > You're partially right - champions' themes WERE a secondary thing in the game. Lore always was (and always should be) secondary, as something that adds flavor to what we already know - Olaf is a barbarian, Gangplank is a pirate, etc. > > However, Riot is putting more and more emphasis on theme with these recent years and all their changes. Even with the upcoming mage updates, one of the big things they're focusing on is making sure that champions play more distinctly in accordance to their theme: Zyra is going to be based more around her plants, Malzahar's voidlings will play a greater role in his kit, and so on. Why do you think they'd be doing that? Is it because these themes and the mechanics they inform are what makes each champion unique? That seems to be the case here, but please let me know if you disagree. No, he's entirely right. Riot themselves have stated that they are willing to make thematic compromises for the sake of balance/good design on champions because it's more important for a champion to be healthy and viable than it is for them to be absolutely perfect with their theme. If that wasn't the case then we wouldn't have gotten so many thematically iffy abilities recently. I mean when Fiora came out they specifically said that they understood the complaints about Fiora's ult not feeling like a duelist ult, but they had to give her something like that because she needed some sort of team utility to encourage team fighting versus constant splitpushing and they needed her to have some sort of power outside of doing damage because otherwise she'd be too feast or famine. Riot can't just throw everything away and declare that thematic relevance is the only thing that matters. People care about their in-game experience - ever noticed that every complaint about a champion is how horrible they feel to play against and not about how "Lux just ruined a game I was in by not really feeling like a light mage"?
> No, he's entirely right. Riot themselves have stated that they are willing to make thematic compromises for the sake of balance/good design on champions because it's more important for a champion to be healthy and viable than it is for them to be absolutely perfect with their theme. If that wasn't the case then we wouldn't have gotten so many thematically iffy abilities recently. You can have healthy and viable designs by creating more diversity, which can be achieved by truly living up of every theme of each and every individual champion! > I mean when Fiora came out they specifically said that they understood the complaints about Fiora's ult not feeling like a duelist ult, but they had to give her something like that because she needed some sort of team utility to encourage team fighting versus constant splitpushing and they needed her to have some sort of power outside of doing damage because otherwise she'd be too feast or famine. Which goes to show how much Riot is obsessed with teamfights, which results in the game feeling very stale and repetitive as every game two teams are up against each other and try do the same thing in order to destroy each other's nexus! > People care about their in-game experience - ever noticed that every complaint about a champion is how horrible they feel to play against and not about how "Lux just ruined a game I was in by not really feeling like a light mage"? [Just gonna pop this one in here.](http://imgur.com/BDR2oIU) > Riot can't just throw everything away and declare that thematic relevance is the only thing that matters. Readability matters. Counterplay matters. Strategic diversity matters. Theming matters (because the more the champion is tied to its theme, the more powerful the expierence will become, meaning it'll be more fun playing the character as it 'clicks' with the player!) All of this starts with theming.
d3gDee (NA)
: I believe you're not looking at the whole picture when it comes to game design in the MOBA genre and therein lies your mistake. Using all of the knowledge you have learned, would you honestly say you could create a MOBA based on what you have given us? Your post is titled "Why league of legends isn't as awesome as it could be," yet most of it is your insight on character design and the disconnect between visuals and gameplay, I'm not saying it's not important don't get me wrong, but I don't think you need to emphasize it so much. As a casual player of these games, some of my most favorite champs/heros/gods attracted me because of how they played and how their abilities allowed me to have an impact on the game (Nasus in LoL, Sand King in DotA 2, Ymir in Smite for my personal favorites). Would it be cool if they were 100% thematic/readable? Absolutely. But does it matter at the end of the day, when i'm in the heat of the moment having fun and making cool plays? Not too much. So, in Riot's defence, they can afford to sacrifice some clarity and accessibility as long as the game is fun and it has strategic depth. Ask yourself, would you rather play the most perfect MOBA and it not be fun or play an imperfect one that's a blast?
> I believe you're not looking at the whole picture when it comes to game design in the MOBA genre and therein lies your mistake. Using all of the knowledge you have learned, would you honestly say you could create a MOBA based on what you have given us? Sure! Seeing as ItemsGuy has made a whole fricken lot Redesigns over the course of these past 3-4 years that all hold true to the design values that Riot follows as well. If I could snap my fingers and a game could be created within a matter of seconds, a MOBA could exist with all of ItemsGuy’s Redesigns, which are all champion designs with consistent theming and a concrete goal/playstyle, where all abilities work together to let the player be able to reach this goal. Redesign Yorick is all about creating a herd of zombies and trying to overrun your opponent with it, and ultimately getting rewarded for it if you manage to kill a person that has been beaconed. Just as the kit of Darius is currently all about adding stacks to people, and the longer these fights last the harder he’ll punish you, ultimately being rewarded for it by his ult! > I'm not saying it's not important don't get me wrong, but I don't think you need to emphasize it so much. As a casual player of these games, some of my most favorite champs/heros/gods attracted me because of how they played and how their abilities allowed me to have an impact on the game (Nasus in LoL, Sand King in DotA 2, Ymir in Smite for my personal favorites). Would it be cool if they were 100% thematic/readable? Absolutely. But does it matter at the end of the day, when i'm in the heat of the moment having fun and making cool plays? Mhm, it does! Clearly you are of the opinion that even though some designs in League might not be as readable or as thematic as they could be, they are still fine as long as they are fun to play (and healthy for the game in general), and that’s fine! This is exactly the reason why League of Legends has become as popular as it is; the game works, it’s fun, people love it. I do too. However, what I’d like to ask you is; what if you don’t have to sacrifice clarity and accessibility, which is to say, you can still have fun (if not even more fun) champion designs while keeping the champions and the game itself as readable and as accessible as it could be! [Have you read this quote about a Riot champion designer saying he wouldn’t mind increasing Garen’s skill cap?](http://imgur.com/tc2VPTr) And we agree! Some people might still be in love with Garen years after playing the game, but there are also thousands and thousands of players like me, whom, after years of playing a game, a champion like Garen has just become too easy and too boring. Increasing his skill cap would make sure I’d be able to enjoy him for a much, much longer time, while beginners are still able to tap into his gameplay as easily as before! As for strategic depth; people are done with the game seeing the same champions every game, this has to do with champion design due to the fact there is not enough strategic diversity, such as the fact that almost every mage is basically about hitting your CC ability and following up with the rest of your kit. Now this is an okay play-pattern for some theme’s/champions, but not for certain theme’s that would imply a completely different playpattern when looking at the essentials of what the champion is about. Brand should set people ablaze and start a wildfire, burning the enemy team like candles the longer fights last, his passive does this well (it burns over time) as well as his ultimate; it spreads! However, his generic, AoE W, that is simply a burst ability rather than being characteristic to fire, conflicts with the natural playpattern his theme would imply. With a little luck this ability, as well as him being able to stun people, will dissappear when his rework comes out. Riot designs champions in such a way that they all seem to be encouraged to teamfight, Fiora’s AoE heal comes to mind immediately, while the nature of her theme would imply a playstyle that would solely be about trying to get into 1 vs 1 fights. Now you might not care for all this, but there’s plenty of people who are bored with designs that have become to straightforward for them over the course of all these years (mainly champions like Master Yi, old Sion, Garen, Annie), as well as people being sick of seeing every pro match or match in general turning to play out the same as the game before or the game after. Which would be along the lines of: farm -> teams dancing around each other -> someone getting caught of a fair teamfights -> game ends. The current strategic diversity League has can be improved upon, champion designs can stay as fun, if not even more fun, while not sacrificing clarity or readability at all, which means the game becomes more accessible, which means more people will play the game, which means the game becomes more popular, which means Riot makes more profit. Allow me to give a few examples, and please, if you can, please check them out! Yorick, right now, is very unhealthy for the game, but especially, incredibly boring and straightforward. His entire gameplay is just about spamming your ghouls that kind of do the work for you. All the abilities in [Yorick’s Redesign](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-yorick-gravedigger.html) work together, towards the goal of overrunning the enemy team with a herd of zombies. His design is no longer just mindless button-mashing, which means the design is probably going to be considered much more fun, especially for those who like the idea of playing a necromancer. As for counterplay; the more the design works to one common goal, the more the design has defined strengths and weaknesses, which means, the counterplay should become as clear as ever! Yorick wants to overrun you with his herd of zombies. He rises them from the grounds through his tombs, you might want to deal with them! Yorick keeps his zombies up by transfering his own life to them, you might want to stop him from doing that, interupt the channel! See a herd of zombies following a bright light that is destined for one of your allies? You might want to stop that bright light so the herd of zombies are no longer organized but return to their dumb, mindless nature! [Redesign Garen](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-might-of-demacia.html) is all about being that front-line fighter. He does this very well already, yet, a very low skill cap is kind of boring, also it’s quite a problem he falls off late game. Redesign Garen is all about staying that front-line fighter, cutting a little of his power early game so he can still be relevant later on, and allowing a Garen to do more stuff so he’s not as straightforward as before! Right now, Maokai has a very straightforward kit and a low skillcap, basically all you need to do is W on to people, then follow up with the rest of your kit. His W offers poor counterplay, as well as the fact that it doesn't really make sense on an old ent/tree. [Redesign Maokai](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-maokai-twisted-treant.html) is all about giving you that angry forest playstyle, which means he no longer gets to teleport to you and just mindlessly follow up with all his other abilities. All these changes make sure every champion is as thematically tied and as readable as they can be, as well as creating a distinct strategic playstyle that offers plenty of healthy counterplay because the designs all have very defined strengths and weaknesses! As of right now, most of the counterplay in League of Legends basically boils down to: ''Stay away from this champion'' (such as poor-counterplay-ability Maokai W, or Vi Ult), or ''dodge skillshots'' (Vel'koz, Xerath, Lux all get to shoot lasers from long-distance!) Whereas with all these Redesigns the counterplay becomes more engaging and more readable: don't fight on the soil of an angry old tree! [Dim the light of the Lux, the mage of light of League of Legends!](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/02/champion-redesign-lux-lady-of-luminosity.html) [Don't let Vel'koz, the Eye of the Void stare at you!](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2015/03/champion-redesign-velkoz-eye-of-void.html) [Don´t let the nightmare of League of Legends haunt you!](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-nocturne-eternal.html) > Ask yourself, would you rather play the most perfect MOBA and it not be fun or play an imperfect one that's a blast? Suppose you could guess what answer I´d give you to this question, but I´m going to answer anyway: League is imperfect and is a blast. The perfect MOBA would be even more of a blast, while having not sacrificing clarity or readability, while adding more strategic diversity to the game!
Nefas (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Yaime Loveheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=001e0000,timestamp=2016-03-19T18:53:40.528+0000) > > > Yet, they have not, Morello regrets champions like Irelia, Xin Zhao, even Annie is expected to get some overhaul at some point, but she won't for quite some time to come as she's still playable, whereas, a champion like Warwick whom is about just as old as Annie, has been known to getting a rework for quite some months now. > Yet your complaints are not limited to Irelia and Xin Zhao. Your complaints could literally apply to every single champion in the game. You aren't targeting champions whose kits are functionally broken, you are going after things as minor as the thematic resonance on Wukong's W. > Not going to comment on your remark how you feel that these are just merely our opinions. Unhealthy design is unhealthy design, just as you can approach theming as a science. Sion's old Q was removed because it made no sense on his character, and also because it was an anti-fun ability that offered very poor counterplay. > I agree that Sion's Q was removed because it was a point and click stun that offered no counterplay besides stay outside of his range. It is an ability that most likely has no place in the game whatsoever. But again, you aren't limited your complaints to unhealthy design. Wukong W is not unhealthy design. Sion W is not unhealthy design. You have no sense of priority. > It's okay you don't like our suggestions, however, I can't really imagine how a magical shield on an undead warrior fits. It just doesn't, especially compared to a champion like Darius, whose entire kit is unified, has a very clear goal, and every aspect of his kit helps him reach this goal, and his ult as the reward for playing accordingly. > He is an undead warrior brought back through necromancy and a soul furnace in his gut which animates him and strengthens him as he kills. The soul furnace overcharges when he uses his W as a shield for extra power. The entire line "I can't really imagine how a magical shield on an undead warrior fits" is simply nonsense. He was brought back through magic; of course he is somewhat magic in nature. A quote from the Riot's relaunch annoucement: "So while Sion's now something of a hollow corpse, his body's been filled with the red energy most notable on his stomach – the same energy that forms Soul Furnace's shield". You should actually read the lore. > That said, taking into account Morello's quote on Sion as well, if champions are unhealthy for the game, no matter how much the community demands to leave things unchanged, you should change them, because it's for the better. Yes, it's very important to pay attention to what the players want or have grown used to, however, they aren't designers, and in many cases do not know what's best for the game. > Again, Sion's W is not unhealthy for the game and neither are many of the abilities you are targeting. Try limiting your focus to abilities and champions that are actually unhealthy for the game. Lack of thematic resonance is not a major, unhealthy gameplay problem. Vlad breaking spell vamp is a gameplay health problem. Ryze perma root was a gameplay health problem. > They seem more powerful because they have defined strengths and weaknesses, just like Tahm Kench right now, whose considered to have a higher powerlevel than about 95% of the champions in League of Legends (also, not a surprise that multiple ADC's are seen at pro play right now, those tweaks allowed them to be stronger!). > Tahm Kench doesn't have a higher power level than most champs in LoL. When he did it was because he did not have defined strengths and weaknesses. He practically had 2 health bars and incredibly sustain. He could build full tank yet do massive damage through ult passive and W on enemy. He had long-lasting, powerful CC that was fairly easy to apply to his preferred targets. The same is true for ADCs, which are seeing such play because AD itemization allows them to be much tankier than in the past while still doing tons of damage - Sterak's is still powerful because it is the shield that matters, Hex/Maw haven't been touched yet. Those items prevent most any type of AP burst. > Some abstract or more complicated themes or champions are always going to be a little more complex, just like a champion such as Fiddlesticks is probably going to feel way more abstract than a champion like Garen, which is just a frontline soldier with a big sword. > > However, what you should take into account is that when you improve the readability of the game by so much after getting rid of these weird inconsistencies such as Leblanc doing more ''abstract, high burst targeted damage'' than she does deceiving people, or getting rid of Sion's random, unfitting, magical shield, there suddenly is so much more room for more complicated theme's. > If you keep these design to the core values of their theme, you can go wild with some more difficult theme's. Which means, a theme that demands more stuff to be done, because otherwise you end up watering the design down! Adding multiple paragraphs to each ability outweighs cleaning up thematic resonance that doesn't affect game health like an elephant outweighs a gnat. > Heimerdinger only being able to _place _ an invention is pretty lame for someone whose supposed to be an inventor. Inventors invent stuff. Things. Multiple things. Redesign Heimerdinger collects scrap to build stuff and invent these things. So yes, little more difficult, still readable and fitting because the design makes sense, has a unified goal, and all the abilities work together to get the job done. > Similar to how a guy that is supposed to be all about evolution should actually evolve in the game itself, instead of just buying an item and altering his abilities just slighty, which is to say, only add extra effects. > As for your argument of the designs being unrealistic; we're used to this argument. Three years ago people would just point out and say: ''Man! Those designs are either OP or completely useless!'' > It is a game. Malphite in lore is a damn mountain that shouldn't even really fit on the map. There are limits and you don't understand them, which is why Riot won't ever really take posts like this seriously. I said nothing about whether the designs were OP or completely useless. Don't strawman my argument and waive away the actual points. The literal length of Jhin's passive is an issue for clarity and comprehension, but in a sense it is limited - everyone just need to know that as Jhin gets AS/Crit Chance he does more damage, which essentially is the same as another other ADC. New resources are especially problematic for clarity and comprehension, because the burden is on the opponent as well to be able judge engages, power level, etc. Heimer's proposed kit takes a Jhin-passive level of complication and puts in on multiple abilities, adds multiple levels of resources that both Heimer and the opponent have to understand and manage - scrap, ammo system for turrets, and adds multiple levels of additional complexity rivaling form swappers by moving the Upgrade ability to a regular ability. It isn't even vaguely legible. Viktor's is straight up horrid design. His passive is as bad as Cass' current passive in terms of inappreciable power and artificial capping. Functionally he would have closer to 10-12 abilities - based on the sizable changes for each ability as upgraded - range changes, multiple lasers, multiple new types of cc - for both the Viktor player and the opponent to keep track of, which is hilariously lacking in any sort of clarity whatsoever. Yet another resource is added with hextech carapace. You've referenced the problems between Kha and Vik's supposedly overlapping themes elsewhere, but Kha'Zix is an example of organic evolution. Viktor of mechanical. It is not difficult to distinguish the two, at all. Both can easily exist. These are armchair designs. You refuse to accept anything short of these "ideal" versions of champs that fully meet their "thematic resonance". At some point gameplay has to trump thematic resonance. The line is 5 miles behind you when thematic resonance dictates multiple paragraphs in each ability. > Heroes of the Storm has some heroes with very good, defined strengths and weaknesses as well: > Don't play HoTS; won't comment. > These Redesigns as well as the HOTS hero examples I just mention are pretty in line with current Tahm Kench. If a champion has very defined weaknesses, he can be allowed to really shine at one particular thing. And who'd ever imagine Quinn would get an ultimate to roam around on a 3 second cooldown, or Tahm Kench being able to swallow up both enemies and allies, and traveling with allies? People wouldn't have believed that if you'd tell them back in 2013 or prior to that, Riot was really afraid of designing such abilities because they were afraid they wouldn't be able to handle them. > Yet those ability have much in the way of clarity and simplicity, unlike anything proposed I've seen suggested in those reworks and in your post.
> Yet your complaints are not limited to Irelia and Xin Zhao. Your complaints could literally apply to every single champion in the game. You aren't targeting champions whose kits are functionally broken, you are going after things as minor as the thematic resonance on Wukong's W. That's because every inconsistency should be adressed! Horrendous, overloaded designs such as [Lee Sin](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-lee-sin-blind-monk.html),[ Irelia](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/04/irelia-will-of-blades.html), [Yasuo, ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2014/04/champion-redesign-yasuo-unforgiven.html) should definitely be fixed, the sooner the better! However, the moment the Deceiver of League of Legends is more significant for her ability to just burst down people in the blink of an eye rather than her ability to deceive people, that should considered to be a problem as well. Regardless of the fact whether her current design provides poor counterplay or not, that problem is fixed anyhow if you design characters with a concrete goal set in mind, which results in defined strengths and weaknesses. > > I agree that Sion's Q was removed because it was a point and click stun that offered no counterplay besides stay outside of his range. It is an ability that most likely has no place in the game whatsoever. But again, you aren't limited your complaints to unhealthy design. Wukong W is not unhealthy design. Sion W is not unhealthy design. You have no sense of priority. Sion's W harms the readability, and thus the accessibility of the game, because the magical nature of his shield doesn't make sense on the brute character that he is. Also, I'd say we do have sense of priority, ItemsGuy has a list of nit-pick Redesigns: Nocturne is pretty much a spooky nightmare, but when his ultimate is on cooldown, not so much! [Redesign Nocturne takes this a step further, truly delivering on that haunting nightmare playstyle.](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-nocturne-eternal.html) Just like Teemo is quite the scout with a blowpipe and poisenous darts, however, as of right now, Teemo doesn't get to scout all that much as his shrooms are more laid down as somewhat of a mine field rather than placing them all over the map, [Redesign Teemo takes this a step further and encouraging him to actually roam around a little, or, well, to scout!](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-teemo-swift-scout.html) I wouldn't really say we have no sense of priority, ItemsGuy has just sought out for every problem he could find and came up with a solution. Sion's W would be a nit-pick, but shouldn't be an exception to be excused. > ''So while Sion's now something of a hollow corpse, his body's been filled with the red energy most notable on his stomach – the same energy that forms Soul Furnace's shield". You should actually read the lore. Let's say I like shotguns. The moment I lock in Graves I'd be dissapointed to shoot a smokescreen, which has nothing to do with shotguns. Graves's old lore used to explains this; it stated he had a gun specifically modified for him. Not only is it burden of knowledge when you have to read the lore to make sense of a charater, it also waters the design down. Graves's W should be replaced by an ability that has to do with a man wielding a shotgun, just as Sion's current W should be replaced with an ability that is more in line with an undead warrior carrying an axe. > Again, Sion's W is not unhealthy for the game and neither are many of the abilities you are targeting. Try limiting your focus to abilities and champions that are actually unhealthy for the game. Lack of thematic resonance is not a major, unhealthy gameplay problem. Vlad breaking spell vamp is a gameplay health problem. Ryze perma root was a gameplay health problem. Just because some champions--like Zed--work in League of Legends, don't mean they aren't harming the game in terms of readabiliy and accessibility. We have different definitions of what unhealthy is to the game, and I'd have to agree, lack of counterplay is the most toxic and destructive, and this should be adressed first. After that, fix the fact that an old tree is currently able to teleport to you. And dont tell me to read his lore so I can figure out he's actually a ''cursed tree'', because not only is that burden of knowledge, but also his current design robs the players of a ''very slow, territorial playstyle'', because if that would fit any champion, it would fit Maokai. As for the rest of your post, I've asked ItemsGuy to respond to you, and maybe he'll even explain more clearly what I've tried to say here, as well. Looking forward to your discussion!
: how can the recipe for fun be this longwinded/complicated. You're legit trying to tackle everything in one post. do you think your audience will really want to sit down and go through all this. truncate to the core of each facet you wish to address and devote a post to each. If you must make an all encompassing post. Make one that links the other posts you've made so people can get their bearing and select whichever they care to discuss. AKA an Index page of sorts. that youtube video is a good idea, but holy crap you speak sooo fast in it, i think i'm gonna have a seisure. It's actually an hour long video if you expect anyone to digest any of the information covered. Regurgitating and trying to cram everything into it, not sure if video helps or made it worst. when you read through something once its easy to read it fast a second time and breeze through it. I'd rather it have chapters and you took your time, preferably in order of importance. There must be somethings that outshine the rest that you'd want us to absolutely take away from all this. tbh though, going through a lot of the content you did alright, especially consider its all on your free time. just wish it was better formatted. You present/cover a lot of "problems" can you go into solutions more.
My apologies if this thread and the video are simply too much for you. I propose solutions as well, but it might not be as clear as it could be as I do have to admit more of the text is about addressing problems and discovering these are actually inconsistencies that holds the game back. However, here's the my post in a nutshell: Fixing the game starts with theming. Champions with a clear theme can be designed with a very specific goal in mind, and these are the results of such a champion design: -Character become more fun (it delivers a more powerful experience, because the design just makes more sense, it clicks with the player! Like this, it'd be so much more fitting to have a [Fisherman](http://lolchampdesigns.tumblr.com/post/36449434900/original-champion-ronan-the-fisherman) grab enemy champions, rather than some robot!) -Readability improves, as well does it lower the skill floor of the game (simply because champion designs suddenly start to make way more sense, champions like [an old tree will no longer teleport to you but deliver that slow, angry forest playstyle](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-maokai-twisted-treant.html)) -Every champion becomes viable; champions no longer arm wrestle with each other, similar how currently supports do this very, very well, because they are very distinct. Every champion will have something unique and powerful to offer to their team, which means, every champion could and should be viable under the right circumstances, depending all on composition! -Say hi to fun, engaging counterplay, as well as the counterplay being clear as day! By designing champions according to their theme, their kit should have one, unified, set goal in mind. Darius's goal would be to let fights drag on a little, and when he's succeeded in doing this, he gets rewarded for it with his ult! Champions that don't have a concrete goal set in mind tend to have mechanically overloaded kits examples would be Lee Sin, Irelia and Yasuo. All designs that have been very problematic at a time to say the least. Having defined weaknesses allows a champion to really shine at a certain thing. [Redesign Heimerdinger ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-heimerdinger-revered.html) would have a very territorial nature, which means, he gets to be very strong when he stays in one place, you cut his power when you force him to move (exactly like Sgt Hammer in HOTS btw, which is another example of a very good design in terms of defined strengths and weaknesses. If she's stationary, and you let her stay this way, she'll wreck your balls, hunt for her and force her to move and you cut a lot of her power!) Similar to this [Redesign Zyra](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-zyra-rise-of-thorns.html) wants to grow plants and if you just let her you will feel that pain, deal with her plants and you cut her power. -All in all, which is basically the most important thing the designing of champions with a clear theme and unified playstyle solves, is the problem of lack of a strategic diversity. Right now Heimerdinger is more of a generic mage with inventor particles. His turret is kind of the only thing that bare-bones-mechanics-wise, could considered to be an ''inventor ability'', he drops something down that is tangible and does work _for _ him, but the moment current Heimerdinger can just play games not having to really rely on his turrets is were you realize his design as an inventor waters down. You see, some theme's would rather be dedicated to a certain playstyle according to the nature of the theme. An inventor would like to rely on his inventions instead of throwing grenades and rockets on his own. [A gravedigger should want to rely on his zombies,](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-yorick-gravedigger.html) j[ust as a nature mage should be all about her plants](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-zyra-rise-of-thorns.html), instead of Zyra right now, where she just does arbitrary aoe damage and her plants are more of an addition to her kit, rather than the focus. These redesigns create two new playstyles; champions with either a control or territorial champions, while, even the aggressive playstyle champions would suddenly do more cool stuff that fits with their theme and provides a more unique experience than before. [Redesign Vel'koz ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2015/03/champion-redesign-velkoz-eye-of-void.html)would be a vision support that gets up in the face of the enemy in a very aggressive way, just as [Redesign Leblanc would remain an aggressive mage, yet do that in very deceiving way!](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-leblanc-deceiver.html)
Shenmue (NA)
: @yaime loveheart i watched ur whole video "good job man" as myself an 2009 player i find league today complete crap for the reasons you said in your post and video but i am pretty sure nothing will happen. first of all the community is almost dead already, there is more peoples whatching league Esport than play the actual game, well lets say thats what riot want since its profitable and you don't have to do any hard work for your community all you have to do is keep up a show. i guess its depend planning but not as much as keeping a whole community (players not only whatchers) involving in. they actualy should start removing champions from the game, every week there should be a removed champ community voted away from the game this champ could come back 2-3 months later the cicle would actualy give us more diversity. its a hate and love relationship with league of legend thats sad.
> @yaime loveheart i watched ur whole video "good job man" as myself an 2009 player i find league today complete crap for the reasons you said in your post and video but i am pretty sure nothing will happen. Dude, thank you! Comments like these really make it all worth it. As for you comment on that you think nothing will happen, I can be pessimistic like that as well sometimes. And I don't mean to offend you here, even though these are negatives thoughts, you are right to think so, because sadly enough, these thoughts are realistic. However, my video and this thread is kind of my last shot at drawing Riot's attention. We've had some contact with them three years ago, now I might think there's something we could actually work out, or at least convince them take have to take their designs even a step further, which is something I can still see happening, especially since they have started to show they are willing to bring drastic changes to the game, with the intention of making the game better. Which, right now, isn't entirely working out for them. But at least they're trying and acknowledging similar, if not, the same problems! However, the solutions they come up with might not solve the problems entirely, which is what I am afraid of. Examples would be the Sion rework, or champions such as Jihn or Aurelion Sol. > first of all the community is almost dead already, there is more peoples whatching league Esport than play the actual game, well lets say thats what riot want since its profitable and you don't have to do any hard work for your community all you have to do is keep up a show. > > i guess its depend planning but not as much as keeping a whole community (players not only whatchers) involving in. > > they actualy should start removing champions from the game, every week there should be a removed champ community voted away from the game this champ could come back 2-3 months later the cicle would actualy give us more diversity. > > its a hate and love relationship with league of legend thats sad. Well, I'm not sure what would be the the best approach to all this, but they should definitely do something, fast. And I know that feeling all too well, this hate and love relationship you speak off. I hate it so much, yet I love it so dearly. Thanks for stopping by and taking the time for all this, man! It flatters me and makes me feel really, really awesome. Thank you for the vibes.
Kr1sys (NA)
: Good lord, speak slower in your video
Excuse moi! Had to speak fast or the video would have been even longer, and I was really planning on it not being longer than 35 minutes. I speak kind of fast during the entire video, but it does get better after the 5 minute mark!
: Doesn't RIOT like short posts tho?
Yes, yes they do. Everyone does. However, I'm quite a long-winded dude, as well is the subject matter enormous, it takes a step back at the MOBA genre as a whole as well as it analyzes League of Legends coming out with a conclusion at the end. It's a long read, but if you happen to start and eventually finish it, tell us what you think! Hope it'll be worth it for you!
Myrmiron (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Yaime Loveheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gHXgBAb,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-18T00:22:50.736+0000) > >You see, the main, first and foremost reason why League of Legends won't become a better game even though in these three years they have become better at designing champions is that through their design, they are still forcing the game to stay the same as it has always been. Which ends up making the game feel generic, stale, boring and repetitive. This! I'm seriously missing strategic diversity in League. In other games players can invent new strategies and completely obliterate everyone. In League however everything that isn't splitpushing, objective control or good old ARAM style teamfighting, is considered cheesing and will probably be nerfed within 3 patches. However I don't know how to change this. Maybe it's time for some seriously crazy items or champion kits, and I don't mean crazy as in you need 5 hours to fu**c**king understand what the hell this ability does, but maybe as you suggested, let Yorick be the minion master he always wanted to be. Seriously, how is AD Malzahar considered to be the Pokemon-master instead of Yorick? That's f**u**cked up.
Thanks for the support, and, take a look at the Redesigns by ItemsGuy, man! Aggressive champions are still cool and fine to have in the game! But as long as it's the only type of champion you find, that is going to make the game a little stale! Redesign Malphite would still be aggressive, however a tank like Redesign Maokai would suddenly become territorial. Redesign Zyra, Yorick would be about control and are one of my favourites as well, bringing so much more to a game than just teamfighting. You can find 'em all here: http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/ Cheers! PS: Agreed. That is kind of fucked up, haha!
Nefas (NA)
: I agree League has plenty of problems but I see very few of the ideas listed in this posts as solutions. Changing champion kits that have been viewed as acceptable and healthy for years in order to make champs meet your very personal and subjective matching to lore and thematic identity is a horribly unrealistic idea that would enrage champion fan bases. Getting rid of iconic abilities on a champ that are integral to kit functionality is something only someone who has no actual experience in managing a game would suggest. You are so caught up in a theoretical ideal that you haven't considered any of the practical implications for what you are suggesting - not impact on existing players who might have extremely different preferences than you when it comes to their favorite champions' lore/theme/gameplay identity (I disagree with and dislike literally every single suggestion you have regarding current Sion) nor the production constraints of reimagining practically every champion in the game, judging by your commentary. The champion redesigns I read - Heimer, Viktor - were so incredibly convoluted and overly complicated that they couldn't even remotely function in the game. They violate so many rules about readability and burden of knowledge and are, like so much else here, too theoretically engineered and unrealistic.
I agree League has plenty of problems but I see very few of the ideas listed in this posts as solutions. > Changing champion kits that have been viewed as acceptable and healthy for years in order to make champs meet your very personal and subjective matching to lore and thematic identity is a horribly unrealistic idea that would enrage champion fan bases. Yet, they have not, Morello regrets champions like Irelia, Xin Zhao, even Annie is expected to get some overhaul at some point, but she won't for quite some time to come as she's still playable, whereas, a champion like Warwick whom is about just as old as Annie, has been known to getting a rework for quite some months now. Not going to comment on your remark how you feel that these are just merely our opinions. Unhealthy design is unhealthy design, just as you can approach theming as a science. Sion's old Q was removed because it made no sense on his character, and also because it was an anti-fun ability that offered very poor counterplay. Were some people mad about them changing Sion? Yes, sure, even I, myself, had enjoyed stomping people mid with him in Gold elo back in season 2/3. Was it a good move to improve his design? Hell yes. It improves the game over-all. > Getting rid of iconic abilities on a champ that are integral to kit functionality is something only someone who has no actual experience in managing a game would suggest. You are so caught up in a theoretical ideal that you haven't considered any of the practical implications for what you are suggesting - not impact on existing players who might have extremely different preferences than you when it comes to their favorite champions' lore/theme/gameplay identity (I disagree with and dislike literally every single suggestion you have regarding current Sion) nor the production constraints of reimagining practically every champion in the game, judging by your commentary. It's okay you don't like our suggestions, however, I can't really imagine how a magical shield on an undead warrior fits. It just doesn't, especially compared to a champion like Darius, whose entire kit is unified, has a very clear goal, and every aspect of his kit helps him reach this goal, and his ult as the reward for playing accordingly. That said, taking into account Morello's quote on Sion as well, if champions are unhealthy for the game, no matter how much the community demands to leave things unchanged, you should change them, because it's for the better. Yes, it's very important to pay attention to what the players want or have grown used to, however, they aren't designers, and in many cases do not know what's best for the game. I think even Sion is played so much more ever since his rework came about, compared to prior to that. > > The champion redesigns I read - Heimer, Viktor - were so incredibly convoluted and overly complicated that they couldn't even remotely function in the game. They violate so many rules about readability and burden of knowledge and are, like so much else here, too theoretically engineered and unrealistic. Some abstract or more complicated themes or champions are always going to be a little more complex, just like a champion such as Fiddlesticks is probably going to feel way more abstract than a champion like Garen, which is just a frontline soldier with a big sword. However, what you should take into account is that when you improve the readability of the game by so much after getting rid of these weird inconsistencies such as Leblanc doing more ''abstract, high burst targeted damage'' than she does deceiving people, or getting rid of Sion's random, unfitting, magical shield, there suddenly is so much more room for more complicated theme's. As of right now, very straightforward champions with very simple theme's have been made abstract and confusing due to random stuff: falconers doing backflips, undead warrior shielding themselves, plant mages doing more random AoE damage rather than doing stuff with her plants. If you keep these design to the core values of their theme, you can go wild with some more difficult theme's. Which means, a theme that demands more stuff to be done, because otherwise you end up watering the design down! Heimerdinger only being able to _place _ an invention is pretty lame for someone whose supposed to be an inventor. Inventors invent stuff. Things. Multiple things. Redesign Heimerdinger collects scrap to build stuff and invent these things. So yes, little more difficult, still readable and fitting because the design makes sense, has a unified goal, and all the abilities work together to get the job done. Similar to how a guy that is supposed to be all about evolution should actually evolve in the game itself, instead of just buying an item and altering his abilities just slighty, which is to say, only add extra effects. As for your argument of the designs being unrealistic; we're used to this argument. Three years ago people would just point out and say: ''Man! Those designs are either OP or completely useless!'' They seem more powerful because they have defined strengths and weaknesses, just like Tahm Kench right now, whose considered to have a higher powerlevel than about 95% of the champions in League of Legends (also, not a surprise that multiple ADC's are seen at pro play right now, those tweaks allowed them to be stronger!). As for the weakness, this has to be there in order for the design to be balanced and offer proper counterplay. And this counterplay should be clear as day the more a champion has a unified playstyle with one goal set in mind. Yorick wants to rise a herd of zombies from the ground, Zyra wants to turn Summoner's Rift into her own garden by growing and taking care of her plants, etc. Kill her plants and Zyra is going to be less effective. Deal with Yorick's zombies and he's going to be less effective. Heroes of the Storm has some heroes with very good, defined strengths and weaknesses as well: Take Sgt Hammer from Hots: She will wreck your balls if she's stationary. If she settles down and you let her stand still, you're fucked. If you force her to move she's not gonna be entirely useless, but you cut down her power A LOT. Take Abathur from HOTS: He will push like a mad mean the further he is on the map. If you search and hunt for him and force him back to base, you cut his power a lot. He's not entirely useless when standing in base, but he does push less effectively. Take Rexxar from Heroes of the Storm: As long as Mischa is up he's pretty powerful, kill the bear and you cut his power A LOT. He's not entirely useless with Mischa, as he's still able to cast his Q and auto attack, but still it's the most effective way of dealing a lot. These are very unified playstyles: Sgt Hammer wants to wreck your balls while standing still, from distance. Abathur wants to push as hard and as far into the map as he can, Rexxar wants to screw you over with his bear. The counterplay to these designs are very clear. These Redesigns as well as the HOTS hero examples I just mention are pretty in line with current Tahm Kench. If a champion has very defined weaknesses, he can be allowed to really shine at one particular thing. And who'd ever imagine Quinn would get an ultimate to roam around on a 3 second cooldown, or Tahm Kench being able to swallow up both enemies and allies, and traveling with allies? People wouldn't have believed that if you'd tell them back in 2013 or prior to that, Riot was really afraid of designing such abilities because they were afraid they wouldn't be able to handle them. Now, they've grown some balls, and see that it is working.
: > Help make a change. League is dying right now Just to jump in.... what? League is FAR from dying. It's growing! Scary, but true. Theres a reason LoL has become the face of Esports, far more than games like SC2 or DoTA.
As far as I'm aware Riot doesn't proudly share the numbers of the playerbase anymore, just like it would be a stupid thing of Blizzard to do with the playerbase of their game World of Warcraft. Also, Riot games have started R & D (they are trying to create new games), yet, recently, they've bought other gaming companies to help them assist in whatever they are creating right now, which probably means they're having a hard time creating something new and need some help. Trust me, it might not be as urgent as I might came off at first, but League is definitely not growing, rather slowly but surely dying.
: This needs more upvotes. GET THIS TO THE FRONT PAGE AND MAKE RIOT SEE THIS {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
Swae7 (NA)
: League is dying. The only things they can do would be to rework the game(costs a lot of money) or create a new game( also cost a lot of money.) they r not ready to do those.... I wish we could have people like you working a riot. That Zyra summoner rift interaction sounds really cool. I feel that even though this game can't be perfect, they shouldn't make us wait a year just for the same thing in every champion. I'll just like to conclude by saying Jhin was a disaster of a champion. Edit: btw kha zix passive makes sense because he is basically a predator looking for prey. (Prey is easier to catch while isolated so why not give him more damage on isolated targets?)
That's what I'm trying to do, here! Getting ItemsGuy's name out there. I'm just the messenger here, and a very big, dedicated fan of his work that stuck around with him as soon as I met the guy, knowing he had to potential to mean a great deal to the game. Thanks for you comment dude! As for your comment about Kha'Zix, we understand why he has the passive that he does, but this doesn't mean that the passive would probably fit [Nocturne](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-nocturne-eternal.html) better, so he can actually still be that spooky guy that haunts you, even when his ultimate is on cooldown. Just as his evolution passive would be better fit on a champion like [Viktor.](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-viktor-machine-herald.html) As for the rest of his kit; shooting rockets and flying around is not really what a praying mantis does, [Redesign Kha'Zix tries to deliver this playstyle.](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/khazix-void-reaver.html)
Myrmiron (EUW)
: Just droppin a comment so I find this again later to actually read it all.
Comments like these are really appreciated! Makes it all worth it, man. Tell us what you think!
: Hm, interesting thoughts you had there, sir. Though all these flaws are caused by things that were left "unfixed" plus the increasing scale of how "big" the game has become, so as of now there's not much to be done unless there's some kind of mega overhaul. The way game flows isn't just how Rito *decides* it, but also by the players alone. Why are tank supports so much more popular than non-tanks? Because more people just like looking flashy and don't have to worry about the tactical skillfloor that non-tanks do. Why is Lulu top "better" than Lulu support? It's not that she's shit botlane, it's just that people don't like playing a super-duper-subtle backline debuffer that no one notices, therefore they would rather look flashy and mash buttons with style. I can go on. It is not just an explanation on meta changes, but also why games just become... boring. People are too accustomed to the traditional ways and are often "scared" of breaking ways to play. Heck, if we should even bring up pros who literally decides the meta... you get the point. **It's not just Riot, but also the players that shapes the way the game works.** Thoughts on that as well? What if the game is "not awesome" because the players decide to just don't improve, while Riot contributes to at most half of that? Also, just curious, how long did it took you to type all this out?
> Hm, interesting thoughts you had there, sir. Though all these flaws are caused by things that were left "unfixed" plus the increasing scale of how "big" the game has become, so as of now there's not much to be done unless there's some kind of mega overhaul. Very true, if you read the end of our thread from three years ago you'll read how we propose that all these changes would be more fit for a game we'd like to call ''League of Legends 2'' However, it seems that Riot has already kind of started doing these mega overhauls, ADC's have been tweaked (although not to the extent we would do, because, you know, Graves shouldn't have a smoke screen, even though it's a cool ability, it's probably better for a champion that has an entire unified playstyle of a character with a ''smoke playstyle'', which would allow graves W to be an ability that has more to do with that ''shotgun playstyle!), and the mage overhaul is coming, also! So, yeah, the game is already changing to such an extent that some players might comment: Riot, this isn't League of Legends anymore. But yeah, we agree. > The way game flows isn't just how Rito decides it, but also by the players alone. Why are tank supports so much more popular than non-tanks? Because more people just like looking flashy and don't have to worry about the tactical skillfloor that non-tanks do. Why is Lulu top "better" than Lulu support? It's not that she's shit botlane, it's just that people don't like playing a super-duper-subtle backline debuffer that no one notices, therefore they would rather look flashy and mash buttons with style. I can go on. It is not just an explanation on meta changes, but also why games just become... boring. People are too accustomed to the traditional ways and are often "scared" of breaking ways to play. Heck, if we should even bring up pros who literally decides the meta... you get the point. It's not just Riot, but also the players that shapes the way the game works. While I do get where you're coming from, think about it, is it entirely true what you're saying? Supports used to be weaker mages, better itemization so they have more gold income and do more stuff made the role way more popular. However, this does not mean that the playstyles the champions offer by itself are very engaging. Although, new supports such as Thresh, Braum, and Bard are way more like it; they are much more impactful and feel more rewarding to play! Seriously, if you'd be so kind to take a look at Redesign Vel'koz, it's one of my favourite Redesigns, and it would be a support character ALA Dota2 (did you know that in DOTA2 supports can actually carry games, whereas in League, especially before the improved itemization, they could barely do this at all). I've always thought I was the kind of player that just wants to kill stuff, but after I met ItemsGuy and read many of his support designs, I'm not sure whether that is actually true! I'd rather play [Redesign Vel'koz](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2015/03/champion-redesign-velkoz-eye-of-void.html) over any Redesign ADC, I'm afraid. Other really cool support redesigns are [Redesign Kayle](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-kayle-fallen-angel.html), and [Redesign Morgana](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-morgana-fallen-angel.html). Personally, I'd die to play those three. > Thoughts on that as well? What if the game is "not awesome" because the players decide to just don't improve, while Riot contributes to at most half of that? That'd be a shame! And it's why we were so dissappointed three years ago. Seriously, talking about that stuff back then really felt like messing with people's beliefs as if League of Legends was just perfect and their religion. This is kind of my last stand, my last hope. I don't enjoy playing the game and honestly writing all this and making the video just stresses and bums me out because I'm really saddend by how the game has become and three years ago it was kinda hard to make people listen, so I plan on doing nothing with League at all after all of this has been settled and we know whether ItemsGuy come make something happen with Riot. (he has applied for internships and has gotten through various stages of acceptance, as of now he was told that he had almost made it, but since they only take one intern at a time right now, the spot had been filled by someone else) One thing I doubt is whether these new interns have the same vision for the game as ItemsGuy has, which is basically the same vision Riot has, only different because his version actually does live up to all the design values Riot says to follow, which they have set for themselves. > Also, just curious, how long did it took you to type all this out? Writing the draft and finalizing it took me about a week. And this means ~8-10 hours+ a day, it really got kind of a drag near the end because I just wanted to post my thoughts and get it out there as soon as possible. Making the video took me another week, same story, 10+ hours a day. I was lucky I happened to have holiday for a week or otherwise I would have fucked up other responsibilities I have. I've easily spent more than 150+ hours doing all this, including being here and writing on this forum underneath this thread! Thank you for being so interested, man. :)
Saianna (EUNE)
: Watched it all. I agree. But what would you expect to happen? That's what I think you forgot to add. What exactly and HOW would you want to happen
We've had some contact with Riot three years ago, somewhere along the line that communication was kind of broken, that was because we ended up all too busy, mainly a couple of employees at Riot. I'm not saying that we were close to getting anything done, really, we weren't able to even sit around the table digitally if that could even ever happen, but just seeing a Riot reply on this thread would be a great start. I think that at the very least we deserve some cred, when you take into account the fact what changes they've all brought to the game, while many of Ryan's redesigns have been uploaded and out there for the world to see three years ago. Thank you for watching it all, man. Really makes it all worth it!
SHlTBUG (NA)
: Zyra is being reworked to make her more of a plant controller, the Mage update is in progress, Quinn has already been updated, Alistar's E is being nerfed to make him more picked to be a bull. It seems you just copy pasted a lot of these things from 2013 and ignored the stances Riot has taken on them, which is to fix them. Not all abilities are 20% of a champion's kit, like Zed's E, Sona's E, Udyr's Q/R depending on build. Kits are rounded out to make it so they are somewhat diverse, which means making some abilities less impactful and giving more power budget to cool stuff. Aurelion Sol is about to be released, and his ultimate feels lackluster on purpose. They want his power to be in passive/W. The reason his ultimate, or Nocturne's Q, or Zed's E exist is to round out their kit. Maybe in the champion design phase they base someone around one ability but it just doesn't play right, so they add something else in to make it playable. You're right that, say, a Nocturne Q doesn't fit the character thematically other than that it's dark and spooky, but it allows his other abilities to work as they do. Are you saying the Nocturne doesn't feel like a haunting darkness spirit? His other abilities are just there to make a kit which works around his ultimate, which is cool as hell. Some champions could fit the game way better than they do, like Blitzcrank. But there are other bigger concerns to work on, like updating champions such as Sion and Poppy, who are clearly out of place. Riot is certainly moving in the right direction, and saying that they are degrading is insane. So many of the unhealthy gameplay or lore/kit disconnects have been fixed, but obviously there is more to do. By the way, Wukong most certainly does not do more deceiving than Leblanc. She has 3 abilities that help with deception (passive is essentially a more deceptive Wukong W which is the only misdirection in his kit, plus her W and RW) What does Jhin offer that Caitlyn doesn't? Caitlyn is not a sniper, she is a lane bully because of the constant pressure she creates with long range auto attacks. Jhin revolves around windows of power caused by his auto attacks, and he is more of a supporting champion that follows up on or creates plays for his teammates via the slow from R or snare from W, and then follows up. In a teamfight, Caitlyn kites around and pursues criminal directly, whereas Jhin prefers to not get anywhere near his targets and make his performance at incredibly long range. They are extremely different champions. You are right that Caitlyn's ult is just a worse version of Jhin's in a lot of ways, and that is a result of Caitlyn being released a long time ago before Jhin as a champion was feasible. In that sense, you are right. There are certain relics of the game that will change balance forever and are too far in to go back on. Yeah, it would be cool to make flash not a necessary summoner spell, but so much of game balance relies on it that making that change for the sake of diversity would require an incredible amount of balancing to make work, and champions like Annie would need to be completely reworked even though right now, they offer something unique to the game. Yes, you have some cool ideas which could be neat. No, your ideas that League is dying or that they have to change their fundamental ideology aren't right, Riot has addressed pretty much everything you think is wrong and the fact that you took a year of break is very clear to me. No, you aren't visionaries with amazing new information. I want you to do one thing. You have clearly spent a lot of time and energy on this, so try and read everything with an unbiased view. Read what you write and then find some Riot game philosophy (that isn't 2 years old, look at the recent stuff). Just do it with new eyes, and then if you still think what you do keep going.
As for this: > I want you to do one thing. You have clearly spent a lot of time and energy on this, so try and read everything with an unbiased view. Read what you write and then find some Riot game philosophy (that isn't 2 years old, look at the recent stuff). Just do it with new eyes, and then if you still think what you do keep going. If you think I am biased, I'm sorry. I've tried to take a step back from the MOBA genre as a whole and objectively research the failures and successes of other games, as well as the failures and successes of League of Legends. Many of the things we mention are in line with what they say right now, things we have been saying three years ago as well. If my response and this message isn't able to convince you I'm not biased, then I'm pretty sure there's not a whole lot more I can do or say more. All I can say is; I'm fairly sure Riot would learn a great deal from this, and it'd be very happy to see what they'd have to say about the information I've provided now, as their reaction three years ago, specifically from Morello, was something along the lines of: Hey! Good points, we actually agree about a lot of things. Which was the reason we ended up getting that sticky from him, which is the best thing that ever happened for us.
SHlTBUG (NA)
: Zyra is being reworked to make her more of a plant controller, the Mage update is in progress, Quinn has already been updated, Alistar's E is being nerfed to make him more picked to be a bull. It seems you just copy pasted a lot of these things from 2013 and ignored the stances Riot has taken on them, which is to fix them. Not all abilities are 20% of a champion's kit, like Zed's E, Sona's E, Udyr's Q/R depending on build. Kits are rounded out to make it so they are somewhat diverse, which means making some abilities less impactful and giving more power budget to cool stuff. Aurelion Sol is about to be released, and his ultimate feels lackluster on purpose. They want his power to be in passive/W. The reason his ultimate, or Nocturne's Q, or Zed's E exist is to round out their kit. Maybe in the champion design phase they base someone around one ability but it just doesn't play right, so they add something else in to make it playable. You're right that, say, a Nocturne Q doesn't fit the character thematically other than that it's dark and spooky, but it allows his other abilities to work as they do. Are you saying the Nocturne doesn't feel like a haunting darkness spirit? His other abilities are just there to make a kit which works around his ultimate, which is cool as hell. Some champions could fit the game way better than they do, like Blitzcrank. But there are other bigger concerns to work on, like updating champions such as Sion and Poppy, who are clearly out of place. Riot is certainly moving in the right direction, and saying that they are degrading is insane. So many of the unhealthy gameplay or lore/kit disconnects have been fixed, but obviously there is more to do. By the way, Wukong most certainly does not do more deceiving than Leblanc. She has 3 abilities that help with deception (passive is essentially a more deceptive Wukong W which is the only misdirection in his kit, plus her W and RW) What does Jhin offer that Caitlyn doesn't? Caitlyn is not a sniper, she is a lane bully because of the constant pressure she creates with long range auto attacks. Jhin revolves around windows of power caused by his auto attacks, and he is more of a supporting champion that follows up on or creates plays for his teammates via the slow from R or snare from W, and then follows up. In a teamfight, Caitlyn kites around and pursues criminal directly, whereas Jhin prefers to not get anywhere near his targets and make his performance at incredibly long range. They are extremely different champions. You are right that Caitlyn's ult is just a worse version of Jhin's in a lot of ways, and that is a result of Caitlyn being released a long time ago before Jhin as a champion was feasible. In that sense, you are right. There are certain relics of the game that will change balance forever and are too far in to go back on. Yeah, it would be cool to make flash not a necessary summoner spell, but so much of game balance relies on it that making that change for the sake of diversity would require an incredible amount of balancing to make work, and champions like Annie would need to be completely reworked even though right now, they offer something unique to the game. Yes, you have some cool ideas which could be neat. No, your ideas that League is dying or that they have to change their fundamental ideology aren't right, Riot has addressed pretty much everything you think is wrong and the fact that you took a year of break is very clear to me. No, you aren't visionaries with amazing new information. I want you to do one thing. You have clearly spent a lot of time and energy on this, so try and read everything with an unbiased view. Read what you write and then find some Riot game philosophy (that isn't 2 years old, look at the recent stuff). Just do it with new eyes, and then if you still think what you do keep going.
> Zyra is being reworked to make her more of a plant controller, the Mage update is in progress, Quinn has already been updated, Alistar's E is being nerfed to make him more picked to be a bull. It seems you just copy pasted a lot of these things from 2013 and ignored the stances Riot has taken on them, which is to fix them. > I give credit to Riot in the thread as well as my video on youtube how they've started to take things in the right direction. However, the question is whether Zyra is going to deliver on giving you as much of a plant playstyle as [Redesign Zyra](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-zyra-rise-of-thorns.html) does. And chances are, because of the reason I've stated in both video and thread as well, Riot is most likely not going to, as even though it has taken a better approach to champion design, they still design champions in such a way that league of legends matches are going to stay very similar. Also, nerfing Alistar's heal means he's going to heal less, not going to [make him play more like a bull.](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-alistar-minotaur.html) The focus of his power is just more targeted at his Q and W, doesn't make his design more thematically tied to a bull. As his current design is mostly reactive, and would be more along the lines of a [''gentle giant'' playstyle](http://lolchampdesigns.tumblr.com/post/34494405492/original-champion-edmund-the-abomination), rather than a bull. > Not all abilities are 20% of a champion's kit, like Zed's E, Sona's E, Udyr's Q/R depending on build. Kits are rounded out to make it so they are somewhat diverse, which means making some abilities less impactful and giving more power budget to cool stuff. Aurelion Sol is about to be released, and his ultimate feels lackluster on purpose. They want his power to be in passive/W. The reason his ultimate, or Nocturne's Q, or Zed's E exist is to round out their kit. Maybe in the champion design phase they base someone around one ability but it just doesn't play right, so they add something else in to make it playable. You're right that, say, a Nocturne Q doesn't fit the character thematically other than that it's dark and spooky, but it allows his other abilities to work as they do. Are you saying the Nocturne doesn't feel like a haunting darkness spirit? His other abilities are just there to make a kit which works around his ultimate, which is cool as hell. [Redesign Nocturne](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-nocturne-eternal.html) is one of the Redesigns Ryan/ItemsGuy labels as ''nitpicks''. So, arguably, yes, he's quite the haunting nightmare already. But take a look at his redesign, which takes that to the next level. Nocturne is quite okay, but not perfect yet. > Some champions could fit the game way better than they do, like Blitzcrank. But there are other bigger concerns to work on, like updating champions such as Sion and Poppy, who are clearly out of place. Riot is certainly moving in the right direction, and saying that they are degrading is insane. So many of the unhealthy gameplay or lore/kit disconnects have been fixed, but obviously there is more to do. By the way, Wukong most certainly does not do more deceiving than Leblanc. She has 3 abilities that help with deception (passive is essentially a more deceptive Wukong W which is the only misdirection in his kit, plus her W and RW) We give credit to Riot where they are deserved to be given credit. I try do that and feel I've done that succesfully. However, it still stands that Sion's W still doesn't make sense, and that there's a good chance it would dissappear from his kit if Riot would take a moment to work on him another time (which isn't going to be for a very long time, because, like you already said, there are way more urgent problems to be fixed) As for Wukong; monkeys should not be able to clone themselves and go invisible, bringing up how he's based on Sun Wukong would be just be a perfect example of burden of knowledge. ''Google sun wukong and read about the historical God, then you'll understand!'' This, however, does not mean Wukong can't be tricky, annoying, and messing a little with your head. [Redesign Wukong gives you this monkey playstyle. ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-wukong-monkey-king.html) As for Leblanc, sure, her W and passive enables her to deceive enemies, however it's not her main focus, just like Zyra's plants are not her main focus currently. [ Redesign Leblanc does have deceiving as a focus. ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-leblanc-deceiver.html)Similar to Nocturne, and pretty much every other character that is somewhat tied to their theme (there are exceptions such as irelia that wasn't really designed around a certain theme, but rather around the idea that they wanted to design a character that would succesfully be able to function as a damage dealer with a melee-based kit). > > What does Jhin offer that Caitlyn doesn't? Caitlyn is not a sniper, she is a lane bully because of the constant pressure she creates with long range auto attacks. Except, when looking at her splash art, people will probably go, ''Ah, a sniper character in League of Legends!'', only to find out she just a ''lane bully'' and plays more like a employee in a safari reservation (traps, net), along with sniper-esque abilities due to her ult. Theme's are the starting point of a character, and there's no doubt ''sniper'' was Caitlyn's starting point when they started to work on her, and eventually they dropped the ball. Also, saying she's a ''lane bully'' is not really something people can relate to. While I could easily sell my mom the concept of Brand. ''Mom, he's a kind of a pyromaniac, setting everything ablaze. He uses fire to destroy his enemies'' Similar to how Caitlyn should snipe her enemies into a grey screen with a death timer in the left bottom of their screen. > Jhin revolves around windows of power caused by his auto attacks, and he is more of a supporting champion that follows up on or creates plays for his teammates via the slow from R or snare from W, and then follows up. In a teamfight, Caitlyn kites around and pursues criminal directly, whereas Jhin prefers to not get anywhere near his targets and make his performance at incredibly long range. They are extremely different champions. You are right that Caitlyn's ult is just a worse version of Jhin's in a lot of ways, and that is a result of Caitlyn being released a long time ago before Jhin as a champion was feasible. I've refuted this point somewhere earlier in the comments underneath this thread. I do not deny the existence of the differences, Jihn and Caitlyn are two different playable characters after all, but they do end up doing very, very similar things. The gap between Jihn and Caitlyn is close to nothing compared to the gap between Quinn and Ashe, or Quinn and Graves. Research goes to show Riot would rather stick with creating these gaps of Quinn and Ashe, rather than the very slight gaps of distance of Jihn and Caitlyn. > In that sense, you are right. There are certain relics of the game that will change balance forever and are too far in to go back on. Yeah, it would be cool to make flash not a necessary summoner spell, but so much of game balance relies on it that making that change for the sake of diversity would require an incredible amount of balancing to make work, and champions like Annie would need to be completely reworked even though right now, they offer something unique to the game. Annie is among the champions many players finally seem to recognize as toxic, which was very less the case three years ago. Targeted abilities, targeted stuns which she can surprise you with by using her E before the stun proc in quick succession, etcetera. This isn't really a big surprise since she was one of the first characters that were ever created! Trust me, at some point they will/would go back to her and take a look at her, and my guess is that you'd barely able to recognize her current gameplay when that happens. > Yes, you have some cool ideas which could be neat. No, your ideas that League is dying or that they have to change their fundamental ideology aren't right, Riot has addressed pretty much everything you think is wrong and the fact that you took a year of break is very clear to me. No, you aren't visionaries with amazing new information. Except the following reasons are why people quit: -The game feeling stale, boring and repetitive. (fixed with creating more strategic diversity, and Riot doesn't do this right now even though they have become better at designing champions, because they are laying too much of an emphasis on teamfights, because it seems that they think that teamfights are really the thing that makes league of legends matches cool. In result people like Dunkey point out: the game's kind of stupid and doesn't work as a competitive game, people farm under their turrets for 20 minutes, then the game it's two teams doing nothing and just dancing around each other until someone gets caught. Riot's current vision for the game is much better compared to three years ago, but it wouldn't solve that issue.) -Same champions being picked all the time (lack of diversity, namely the popularity of ADC's right now. Which isn't a surprise, because these new ADC's have a much higher powerlevel than what they used to have, and, hopefully, the mage rework will get them to this level as welll!) -People getting frustrated from certain champions, such as master Yi, because they provide poor, limited counterplay. (this has to do with designing champions with very defined strengths and weaknesses, which has to do with theming as well)
Sasogwa (EUW)
: So first, I'd like to say great job for a super well constructed post, because that required a whole lot of time and dedication, but I'd like to review some points there (probably in order of what I see in the video). - About the lore thing. League of Legends lore is really not developed. It's one of the games that has the less focus on it. And you say to know what Mordekaiser does, you need to read the lore? No, just.. no. Reading the lore won't make you know his spells and the way he works in a game. You have to play with or against him to know that, I don't understand how you'd reach that conclusion, especially since League's lore is so meager. But I get you were probably talking about the wiki more than the lore itself. - About Smite, you say having gods is a limit to the game potential.. Possibly yeah, but it's also an appealing factor for those who like mythology and are interested in this thematic, it's more about having a thematic game in one field a number of people like more than having that allrounder game that will dominate every other one. - About HOTS, dying doesn't grant gold to the enemy team.. Uh, yeah, there IS no gold. The ressources here are specific to the map (things to collect) and experience. Experience is of a HUGE importance in mobas, and some of them consider champion killing as more or less important. In Lol, killing a champion grants very little experience, it's mostly about farming. In DOTA it grants crazy amounts of experience, you can be 5-10 levels over quickly if you start getting fed. Higher exp = higher base damage and it goes on a real harsh snowball. So, what I mean if even if it doesn't grant gold to the enemy team because there is no gold, the snowball factor is still there and quite efficient. - About the metagame, all about 5v5 teamfights.. That's not 100% true. I mean, ever heard of splitpush, 1-3-1 scenarios where you ward their jungle to strangle the enemy team, 4-0-1 setup when one fed splitpusher that has TP goes botlane to put pressure and possibly get inhib, and if he draws a lot of attention, the rest of his team can do baron. Those are extremely classic strategies though. About the Agressive -> Control -> Territorial graph, there's kind of an equivalent Splitpush > Teamfight because you dismantle their team by having pressure on multiple lanes. Teamfight > Pick comp because you just group, push and destroy them in teamfights and profit of their lack of waveclear Pick comp > Splitpush because you catch out the enemy splitpushers fast and come with a numerical advantage on every skirmish Ofc there are a lot of exceptions, since every team ideally wants to cover their weaknesses. The pick comp could have a splitpusher to annoy the teamfight comp, the teamfight comp can get hardengage to force the splitpush comp to fight and then roll over them and get towers (which is why splitpush comps will also like to have a waveclear guy and/or hard disengage). Splitpush comp could also group against the pick comp, which isn't especially that strong in teamfights as well. But the point I'm trying to make is, even though the strategic diversity isn't great, it's not completely limited to teamfights. Overall, I think you insisted a huge lot about the thematic problem and champions not living up to their identity, which IS an issue yet not the only one by far, but.. at 24 : 30 you make a very good list of concerns, which is sad you didn't develop more. I was also thinking about another problem, is kits that completely nullify other kits, by just being the harshest counters you'll ever imagine, to a ridiculously unfun point. Let's say an old matchup : Vlad vs Malph. Vlad should destroy Malph, but Malph will still be able to do damage to him, to ult in fights, etc. even if he's hardcountered he can try to do something. But now let's take Darius vs Kalista and the Darius won't even be able to reach Kalista EVER. He'll just take a rope and hang himself. That's because the identity of the champion to have ridiculous selfpeel, which is more and more present with ADCs, cover the weakness they have, aka needing a support for protection, without anything in counterpart. Which is partly an issue with overloaded kits and on top of AD itemization, one of the factors we see ADC's everywhere in S6 metagame. Still don't agree with the 5v5 clusterfucks 25:35 The root of the cause will always be a lack of consistent theming. S..Sorry, what? Funniest thing is that among the posts you showed, most were talking about other problems that made them leave the game. You take way too much importance in theming there, and not actual gameplay issues. Like, if one champion's theme is the most badass 'you dunno that guy but he came in and rekt everyone' like let's say jax, if you adapt his theme to gameplay he's gonna have 100% winrate and will be permabanned. Even if abilities fit a theme really well and the game is perfect thematically, you can't say you'll have a perfectly balanced game, because some abilities will always be problematic, some champions, by their theme, will be just stronger and more versatile in summoner's rift than others, and like nowadays, we'll see the "bunch of OP champions dominating the rift" and the rest of the champions will be kinda garbage. Also some of the guys leaving were more concerned about playor behaviour than the actual gameplay or thematic aspects. (Trolls, afks, flamers) around 25:56 Interesting ideas, could potentially cover the gameplay issues I quoted. Can't say for sure, but yeah, that's things to think about. Well there's Heimerdinger but eh.. We could make more. Agressive champions, well there are quite a bunch. Well played, Nidalee, Lee Sin, Quinn can make your life hell in earlygame. Yet it's more about denying ressources than outright killing the guy (I won't let you cs mofo) Sorry if most of my post seems a bit not appreciative of your work, that's just because all of the things I do agree with you, well I don't have much to say about it that you didn't already say :)
> So first, I'd like to say great job for a super well constructed post, because that required a whole lot of time and dedication, but I'd like to review some points there (probably in order of what I see in the video). Thanks! This really was a b*tch to make. Took me over a hundred hours, easily. > About the lore thing. League of Legends lore is really not developed. It's one of the games that has the less focus on it. And you say to know what Mordekaiser does, you need to read the lore? No, just.. no. Reading the lore won't make you know his spells and the way he works in a game. You have to play with or against him to know that, I don't understand how you'd reach that conclusion, especially since League's lore is so meager. > But I get you were probably talking about the wiki more than the lore itself. No it doesn't, but still his design depends on the lore. When new players would see mordekaiser they'd probably go: ''Hey this guy is probably going to hit me with his mace, looks like a very physical character'' Thematically his abilities don't really fit because he ends up doing a lot of magical stuff! Which doesn't make sense whatsoever, even if you read his lore, but at least if you read his lore you understand ''why'' he does it; he's some necro lich guy that has to do with death and magical stuff as well. Still, his design doesn't make sense and is a mess in terms of theming. > > About Smite, you say having gods is a limit to the game potential.. Possibly yeah, but it's also an appealing factor for those who like mythology and are interested in this thematic, it's more about having a thematic game in one field a number of people like more than having that allrounder game that will dominate every other one. Absolutely true! However, the fact that it is dependant on these stories is a matter of burden of knowledge. You could say that because of this heavy emphasis on mythology they are targeting an audience that has this interest, which is totally fine. But the fact still stands that the game makes much more sense when you know the stories about all these characters, and seeing as this is burden of knowledge, because it requires players to do homework in an external way, outside of the game, it is a very easy to understand concept that this is the cause of the game being less readable. And less readable games are less accessible, and a less accessible game means less players are likely to get into the game. > About HOTS, dying doesn't grant gold to the enemy team.. Uh, yeah, there IS no gold. The ressources here are specific to the map (things to collect) and experience. Experience is of a HUGE importance in mobas, and some of them consider champion killing as more or less important. In Lol, killing a champion grants very little experience, it's mostly about farming. My point about hots was proving how it's the most accessible, yet also the least deep of the three MOBA's I was comparing. Pretty sure we agree here. In DOTA it grants crazy amounts of experience, you can be 5-10 levels over quickly if you start getting fed. Higher exp = higher base damage and it goes on a real harsh snowball. So, what I mean if even if it doesn't grant gold to the enemy team because there is no gold, the snowball factor is still there and quite efficient. > About the metagame, all about 5v5 teamfights.. That's not 100% true. Nope, it's not 100% true! But this is only because the current strategic playstyles besides ''braindead aggressive'' only scratch the surface! For example, Heimerdinger is somewhat a territorial champion, but he doesn't really rely on his inventions all that much, which ends up in him being more of an ''mage with inventor particles/animations'' rather than[ a champion that truly delivers on giving you that inventor playstyle by relying on how inventions, and actually getting to build sh*t. ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-heimerdinger-revered.html) > Overall, I think you insisted a huge lot about the thematic problem and champions not living up to their identity, which IS an issue yet not the only one by far, but.. at 24 : 30 you make a very good list of concerns, which is sad you didn't develop more. I was also thinking about another problem, is kits that completely nullify other kits, by just being the harshest counters you'll ever imagine, to a ridiculously unfun point. Let's say an old matchup : Vlad vs Malph. Vlad should destroy Malph, but Malph will still be able to do damage to him, to ult in fights, etc. even if he's hardcountered he can try to do something. But now let's take Darius vs Kalista and the Darius won't even be able to reach Kalista EVER. He'll just take a rope and hang himself. That's because the identity of the champion to have ridiculous selfpeel, which is more and more present with ADCs, cover the weakness they have, aka needing a support for protection, without anything in counterpart. Which is partly an issue with overloaded kits and on top of AD itemization, one of the factors we see ADC's everywhere in S6 metagame. > > Still don't agree with the 5v5 clusterfucks > Yet, the opposite of this is designing champions in such a way that they end up very similar, so you could pick about anyone and lane against about anyone. And while this sounds good at first, it actually isn't, which is exactly why even though League has over 130+ champions, most of the time in the pro scene you see about 30 of them. > 25:35 The root of the cause will always be a lack of consistent theming. > S..Sorry, what? Funniest thing is that among the posts you showed, most were talking about other problems that made them leave the game. You take way too much importance in theming there, and not actual gameplay issues. Like, if one champion's theme is the most badass 'you dunno that guy but he came in and rekt everyone' like let's say jax, if you adapt his theme to gameplay he's gonna have 100% winrate and will be permabanned. No, you should design characters thematically with very defined strengths and weaknesses. Some heroes in Heroes of the Storm do this while. Sgt Hammer: wrecks you completely when she's stationary ----> she's WAY less powerful when moving, although not useless. Abathur: wrecks you if he can stand as far into the map as he possibly can, because the further he's into the map near your base, the harder he'll push ----> Abathur's way less effective if you search and go on a hunt for him constantly, forcing him to stay in base. He's less powerful here, although not useless. Rexxar: WAY more powerful as long as Micha is alive, when she dies he's only able to AA and use his Q, he's not entirely useless, but much weaker. Let's take [Redesign Yorick as an example that'd basically do the same thing. ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/01/champion-redesign-yorick-gravedigger.html) A good Yorick would keep his zombies alive, and as long as you don't fight that herd of zombies you're going to get overrun, which is what zombies are kind of known for. If you destroy his zombies, you cut his power, but he doesn't become useless; everytime you use gravecall a zombie would also spawn at his feet so he's still able to function and do stuff, he'd just be much weaker. > Even if abilities fit a theme really well and the game is perfect thematically, you can't say you'll have a perfectly balanced game, because some abilities will always be problematic, some champions, by their theme, will be just stronger and more versatile in summoner's rift than others, and like nowadays, we'll see the "bunch of OP champions dominating the rift" and the rest of the champions will be kinda garbage. Doesn't have to be like that, if every champion has their own niche, every champion would be able to bring something useful and unique to the table. However, the fact that certain champions will always be favored in solo queu (just as Abathur in heroes of the storm is much more of a useful pick in constructed play because it requires way more orginization), is inevitable. > Also some of the guys leaving were more concerned about playor behaviour than the actual gameplay or thematic aspects. (Trolls, afks, flamers) Nice catch! This is absolutely true. Also many lore geeks have probably left the game after they kind of removed the entire ''League/institute of war'' from the game. These are two things I don't mention in the thread, the OP is solely about gameplay, and more specifically, theming. > Agressive champions, well there are quite a bunch. Well played, Nidalee, Lee Sin, Quinn can make your life hell in earlygame. Agreed, about 95% of the champions in League are aggressive, Malphite being a good example of an aggressive tank. But see how I say: _accentuated aggressive playstyle_ in the OP? Maokai is kind of aggressive right now, [Redesign Maokai would be territorial. ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-maokai-twisted-treant.html)Malphite is quite aggressive right now, [Redesign Malphite would lay an emphasis on this and do an even better job at delivering that ''rolling stone'' playstyle. ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-malphite-shard-of.html) > Sorry if most of my post seems a bit not appreciative of your work, that's just because all of the things I do agree with you, well I don't have much to say about it that you didn't already say :) No need to apologize, I enjoy this! It's so much more rewarding and cool like this, where someone like you offers constructive feedback while staying very kind, I try to do this as well to the best of my ability. Hope this reply is going to clarify things for you, and if not, feel free to write back to me! EDIT: Seriously, thank you for pointing out you seem to appreciate the work, which your sentence of you apologizing kind of implies. Things like this truly make everything worth it, for me!
dEAdbUs (EUW)
: Why do you think if champion's skills will 100% fit YOURS expectations of what exact champion has to look like, this will make game more aggressive and intresting? Game depends on how champions are made, not how they fit their lore and splash art. You 're talking about subjective things: for you undead warrior shouldn't have shield, for me it's ok. What makes you think that only your vision is right?
> Why do you think if champion's skills will 100% fit YOURS expectations of what exact champion has to look like, this will make game more aggressive and intresting? Game depends on how champions are made, not how they fit their lore and splash art. It´s not about MY expectation. I´m talking about the average expectation new players will have, they look at Maokai, and say: ''This guy is probably going to offer slow gameplay and be very tanky'', they look at Zed and probably go: ''Woah. I should probably pay attention to this guy, as he's probably going to kill me with ninja-like abilities'', they look at Soraka and probably go: ''Hey, this character doesn't really look defensive or aggressive, this character might be a design that's gonna to support me and my team!'' Also, lore is out of the question here. Lore should be an addition to the game, not depending on it. But the following is a fact: You _can_ actually make champions play exactly according to her theme, and this results in the entire list of cause and effect I've posted to you in a reply to another comment of yours a few minutes ago. > You 're talking about subjective things: for you undead warrior shouldn't have shield, for me it's ok. What makes you think that only your vision is right? Because I'm not talking about my vision, necessarily! But the general, average impression Sion would give players! An undead warrior with an axe should do things an undead warrior with an axe should do, which is why his ''lazer eyes'' Q was removed (this was not fitting thematically as well as an anti-fun/toxic ability because it provided poor counterplay, seeing at is was a targeted ability that would be a guarenteed stun). As for the shield on his design please note this; Sion looks like a very beefy, strong character. It would make absolute sense if he'd be more durable, but this shouldn't be translated to a magical shield. If you'd want to make this character more durable, you should do this in a way an undead warrior with an axe would do, which would be a way more brute'ish way, rather than a magical one. And the fact that Sion's lore explains why he is able to do this magical stuff is only a simple matter of burden of knowledge, I shouldn't have to read lore in order to understand a character! Characters should click as fast as a character like, let's say, Ashe. Only her E is a little thematic inconsistency (someone who'd be in love with the idea of an ''archery'' champion probably wouldn't like the idea of scouting with a bird very much, because it has less to do with an archer using her bow and arrows. While instead, [this ability could be replaced like something such as Ashe firing of a hail of arrows](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-ashe-frost-archer.html), while her current E would make much more sense on something [like a fisherman such as Ronan!](http://lolchampdesigns.tumblr.com/post/36449434900/original-champion-ronan-the-fisherman)
dEAdbUs (EUW)
: You're missing main point: champions themes and lore are secondary thing in game. It's not a role playing game where player needs to play his role as accurate as he can. Game design is a compromise, designer has to sacrifice something when he makes game. You think that champions themes are main thing. But game must be fun and balanced - that is a main thing.
> You're missing main point: champions themes and lore are secondary thing in game. It's not a role playing game where player needs to play his role as accurate as he can. > In order to create a game that is as readable as it could possibly be, it should! And what you've just said is how Riot seemed to think like a few years ago; they treated theming more of a cherry on top of the cake rather than the thing that holds the entire champion together. This is why Zyra doesn't really have to really with her plants in a league of legends match, and although if she would do this she would miss out on quite some power, it still concludes how she plays less like a ''plant mage'', but more of a generic, bursty ''drop down your abilities, hit them, and deal tons of damage'' type of character. Riot, three years later, has changed their thoughts on this and they treat theming way more seriously. This is the exact reason when Zyra's rework that will hopefully come out in the near future will have way more emphasis on her plants (they've posted yesterday that this is an aspect they are going to be focusing on). As will Brand's kit will have more of a characteristic kit that would have to do more with how fire behaves, so chances are his stun is going to dissappear from his design! > Game design is a compromise, designer has to sacrifice something when he makes game. You think that champions themes are main thing. But game must be fun and balanced - that is a main thing. Exactly. Sacrifices.[ Read this quote how Morello has stated that Caitlyn isn't very defined in terms of strengths and weaknesses](http://imgur.com/KqG6qv7), therefore doesn't really comprise much in her design, [and ends up being a very consistently well, safe pick as functioning ADC.](http://imgur.com/795OeQB) If you give a design power, you have to cut down on something else. Making sure that champions have very defined strengths and weaknesses makes sure they can be very powerful as well as very balanced. Caitlyn doesn't have this currently, whereas, something like Tahm Kench, would. [And Riot agrees with this, having so stated themselves.](http://imgur.com/CkllBS8)
dEAdbUs (EUW)
: Ok I've finished reading your post. In my opinion your ideas are destructive. And that's why we see so many negative posts about changed in game. Because riot are following some of this things. Game must have simple champions and complicated. Because fun > depth. You think that challenge is fun, but not always. Some people want to sit and kick some as#es in first game not after 10 hours of practicing champion. You are talking about some design concepts like they 're only possible. Game design is an art. There is no exact rules. Saying "that will work and that won't" is just wrong. Saying that lol is best moba isn't correct. Dota still has much more original mechanics. But then why lol is more popular? Because of marketing. Riot were fighting for fans: always were caring about players and oriented on progaming, they used videos, music. They used everything to attract players. At start developers were close to players and were following their wishes. You can't talk with Blizzard or icefrog like that. Later riot were lucky because Korea choosed their game to play instead of starcraft 2. My sentences are messy because I'm writing from phone. Same time moba is a very specific genre. Rpg can be like fallout or like diablo or like final fantasy, while moba are all about champions, bases, minions and neutral objectives. So you can't do something new and stay moba. It means it's very difficult to come to market with new game.
> Game must have simple champions and complicated. Because fun > depth. You think that challenge is fun, but not always. Some people want to sit and kick some as#es in first game not after 10 hours of practicing champion. I'd rather say we'd have to talk about skill floor and skill cap, here. Skill floor is the manner of how fun it is to get into a champion and learn the character. Chances are a new player would probably enjoy playing Garen way more in his first few games rather than hopping into the game and immediately playing a mechanically harder champion such as Zed. Skill floor determines how fun it is to learn and get into a character, skill cap is the matter of how long it stays fun of playing this character. For many of us, myself including, after five years of playing this game Garen just simply is a character I don't like to play anymore. He's too easy, too straight-forward, and too dumbed down. There's a hotlink to a quote in the OP where a designer from Riot states he would have no problem raising the skill cap of Garen. The trick is not to simply overcomplicate his design by him harder to play (increasing his skill floor) but keeping his as easy as he is to get into while increasing his skill cap (create further depth so the player is able to do way more stuff than to just straight-forwardly charge in, spin 2 win, and ult, because that is as far his current design allows him to go, really). > You are talking about some design concepts like they 're only possible. Game design is an art. There is no exact rules. Saying "that will work and that won't" is just wrong. Here's a quote of the game designer and acclaimed author Jesse Schell: > ''We can create games with powerful themes right now. But why should we do this? We aren't artists, we're designers. Artistic expression is not our goal. Our goal is to create powerful experiences. > It is possible to create a game without a theme, however, if games have unifying, resonant themes, the experiences we create will be much, much stronger.'' Game Design can be approached as science (there are abstract indie games, though, that do have a very artistic purpose, for example games such as Journey), my OP is all about cause and effect, and this is the general rule of thumb: Consistent theming results in character delivering the most powerful experiences they could possibly deliver ----> the designs feel more cohesive, immersive, and make more sense -----> this improves the readability of the game, lowering the burden of knowledge on players ----> the game becomes more accessibile, it has a lowered skill floor, the game is able to attract the most players it could possibly be, because the game is as easy as it could possible be (this can be accentuated further, but in this case you'd have to take on the core mechanics of the game that make league of legends, an example could be removing farming, which HOTS has done, but League just couldn't miss out on the option of farming) ---> at the same time, through very defined strengths and weaknesses, champions are allowed to do more powerful stuff, this is the exact reason why a champion such as Tahm Kench is generally stronger than other champions and is considered to have a higher powerlevel ----> this increases the depth of the game, the game becomes less boring and less repetitive, you won't feel like very match you play is the same because of the amount of strategic diversity all the new designs would bring to the table ----> eSports will become more readable (and thus, more watchable), and more enjoyable to watch -----> eSports become more popular, people can understand way more quickly what's happening on the screen even if they have never played the game, compared to the current state of the game ----> League of Legends is as popular as it could be, as accessible as it could be, as engaging for as long as it could possibly be (this also depends on the personal preference of the player in terms of how much it enjoys playing a moba-styled game, of course), with the most competitive and engaging, and balanced counterplay, which would make sure the eSport of League of Legends would probably blow up even more compared to how hard it has blown up in the past already. > Saying that lol is best moba isn't correct. Dota still has much more original mechanics. But then why lol is more popular? Because of marketing. Sure, marketing plays a role. But, no, it's not the most important factor. LoL is more popular because it is more accessible, peope don't like the idea having to learn dota because it is harder for very unnecessary reasons (complexity for the sake of complexity), it feels more like a chore playing that game. In the long run this means DOTA2 will probably stay more enjoyable for players because it has way more depth (higher skill cap), but getting into the game kind of prevents a lot of people to come to that point, and thus, it has a way less huge, although very dedicated, playerbase. This is also why a very mechanically complex game with a very steep learning curve such as Starcraft 2 isn't very popular. But seeing as that will most likely always kind of be the case (as it's simply the nature of an RTS) of a very deep and complex RTS game (or you'd have to dumb it down to game such as Clash of Clans), you can barely lower the skill floor of a very deep RTS game. Whereas for MOBA's, this can be done by truly delivering on consistent theming. Dota2 is too hard to get into, but the depth is awesome. League is quite the opposite.
Dengeden (EUW)
: Your criticisms are, as expected, off for no reason. You seem to assess the game by glancing at champion design and gameplay briefly. Then you throw out rhetorical question expecting them to be unanswerable. You want the difference between Jhin, Jinx and Cait? Jhin dances forward, backward, forward, all while attacking you. His catch potential is the greatest and most reliable of the 3. Jinx on the other hand fires away with impunity. Her snare and slow are intended to help her zone off enemies while she does. I can't believe you'd call SuperMegaDeathRocket generic, even if it doesn't fit into her kit all that well. There's the fun factor to be looked at. Cait methodically pushes you into your tower and preemptively puts traps down to make sure you don't stop her. Naturally, this is a means to an end. She chips at your health bar while she does her thing. That's why her ult is rarely used as an execute. Let's look at the rock-paper-scissor analogy. In a randomly matched RPS, there is 0 point in worrying about which you should go for ... disregarding psychology. Which is the crux of LoL. What will my opponent do? How long till I find I if I was right? How long till *my* intention is revealed? Purely in terms of champion matchups though, the RPS analogy falls off ... thanks to us. It would be unbearably frustrating to pick a champion and get counterpicked, nothing you can do. Scissor can't cut rock no matter what. That's why it's better to have similar kits and let it be a skill matchup on who uses it better. During the laning phase, at least, it's better not to have the lane be a constant battle over who used their counterability first. I'm also kind of confused why how a champion looks should dictate their playstyle. Their kits should be intuitive, which they are, once you somewhat understand what each ability does. Furthermore why should a champion's kit to be geared towards doing one thing only? Why should I look at a champion and say: "S/he will do THIS and THIS only, let's hope it doesn't work" instead of "S/he will primarily do THIS but I still have to worry about the rest of his kit, which will help set THIS up". E.g. Mao'kai isn't a forest, he's a cursed tree. It makes no sense for him to summon trees. It does make sense for him to consume you, to suppress you or do things that will help him do so. Why on Earth is Wukong more deceptive than LB? It's very obvious when he cast his clone and even if it wasn't, all he has over her is prolonged invisibility. Meanwhile LB has you constantly on your toes with where she distortions. Constantly has you worrying over which ability she will mimick.
> You want the difference between Jhin, Jinx and Cait? Jhin dances forward, backward, forward, ... I'm not saying I deny there aren't differences. They are different champions after all. However, there play patterns and their niche and what they offer to a team, really, is very, very similar. Similar to how Xerath, Lux, and Vel'koz have very similar play patterns (land skill shot cc abilities so you can hit all the rest of your skills). Compare how diverse they are when you take a look at: [Redesign Vel'koz](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2015/03/champion-redesign-velkoz-eye-of-void.html) [Redesign Lux](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/02/champion-redesign-lux-lady-of-luminosity.html) [Redesign Xerath ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/04/champion-redesign-xerath-magus-ascendant.html) > Let's look at the rock-paper-scissor analogy. In a randomly matched RPS, there is 0 point in worrying about which you should go for ... disregarding psychology. > Which is the crux of LoL. What will my opponent do? How long till I find I if I was right? How long till my intention is revealed? This ''how long is my intention is revealed'' only applies to rock, paper, scissors because it is based on luck. Player skill in League would be the most important factor. So, yes, sure, some champions against other champions might have an advantage over the other (which exists in current league as well), but the game would still be very much playable. > Purely in terms of champion matchups though, the RPS analogy falls off ... thanks to us. It would be unbearably frustrating to pick a champion and get counterpicked, nothing you can do. Scissor can't cut rock no matter what. That's why it's better to have similar kits and let it be a skill matchup on who uses it better. During the laning phase, at least, it's better not to have the lane be a constant battle over who used their counterability first. Except these similar kits result in champions armwrestling with each other to be the best at the same role. Ghostcrawler has many, many points on this. This is the exact reason why they've decided to lay further emphasis on Quinn and letting her be the roaming marksmen, Graves the marksman that gets up very close to deal damage with his shotgun, etcetera. > I'm also kind of confused why how a champion looks should dictate their playstyle. Their kits should be intuitive, which they are, once you somewhat understand what each ability does. Furthermore why should a champion's kit to be geared towards doing one thing only? Why should I look at a champion and say: "S/he will do THIS and THIS only, let's hope it doesn't work" instead of "S/he will primarily do THIS but I still have to worry about the rest of his kit, which will help set THIS up". Because it not only helps the readability and accessibility of the game, but also improves on making sure the champion delivers the most powerful experience it could possibly deliver. Quinn doing a backflip takes up 20% of her space, which makes her less of a falconer, which in result would mean, if playing as a falconer would be the most thing for me in the entire world, her doing a backflip would rather be more dissapointing to me than satisfying. To quote myself from someone I've replied to earlier: > Could be a matter of opinion here, besides the fact that characters with resonant, unifying playstyles are healthier for the game in terms of readability, accessibility, and counterplay. > > But besides that, my opinion about a champion such as Zyra, would be the following: > Maybe, similar to how you probably wouldn't like Quinn as much if she'd be solely about doing Falconer-stuff, I was very dissappointed to see Zyra, the nature mage of League of Legends, being somewhat more of a bursty, teamfighting mage, that feels very generic and similar to other champions such as Brand (their play-pattern simply is ''hit your CC ability so you can hit your other abilities and combo people down in quick succession), where her plants more seemed like an addition to her kit, rather than her focus. > > As of right now, the Plant mage of League of Legends doesn't actually deliver on truly giving you that playstyle that's all about plants. Isn't that sad? > Champions should all have very resonant, unifying playstyles, so every champion truly delivers on what it was intended to deliver and every champion lives up to the expectations of what their theme hints the champion would be able to do. Like this, Zyra would become a plant mage that's all about her taking care of her plants and growing them until they are strong enough to wreck balls. > > As for Quinn, she'd solely deliver on giving you that falconer playstyle, which would have a big emphasis on mobility (which Riot has attempted to do with her as well), and if that suddenly wouldn't float your boat, perhaps an acrobat champion that'd have this niche of being agile would be more for the likes of you. > > As an aside, and perhaps a bit unrelated to the point of your post, I disagree with what seems to be the prevailing notion here concerning Quinn. > Why on Earth is Wukong more deceptive than LB? It's very obvious when he cast his clone and even if it wasn't, all he has over her is prolonged invisibility. Even if you think Wukong isn't more deceptive, it still stands as a thematic inconsistency that he's able to clone himself and go invisible. Monkeys don't do that, and saying how he was based on the ancients stories of Sun Wukong would be a simple matter of Burden of Knowledge. This doesn't mean Wukong shouldn't be able to be tricky and mess with you! Because that's exactly what monkeys do, and thus, [what Redesign Wukong does as well. ](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-wukong-monkey-king.html) > Meanwhile LB has you constantly on your toes with where she distortions. Constantly has you worrying over which ability she will mimick. Except her aspect of deceiving is more of a cherry on top of the cake rather than the thing she's about entirely, which would be quite a dissappointment rather than providing a satisfactory feeling, if say, deceiving people with my champion would be the thing I'd love to do the most. Not to mention the fact that her current playstyle is toxic in terms of providing very limited, poor counterplay. However,[ this could be a very good example of how Leblanc would be able to play like if her design would all be about deceiving.](http://lolredesigns.blogspot.nl/2012/12/champion-redesign-leblanc-deceiver.html) You know, her ult would make her take the appearance of one of hear teammates, it would make sense for her to actually leave clones behind with one of her abilities rather than her current, watered down passive which merely scratches the surface of delivering you that ''deceiver mage playstyle''.
aperson1 (NA)
: Damn, dude. You might want to shorten your post a little. I know you put a lot of effort into writing this out, but you have to make concessions sometimes for the sake of readability. Deleting some of your writing hurts but information density is a lot more important than volume, especially if you want to gain traction on this stupid Boards system. Your thoughts are a bit too scattered and I could basically get the gist of your entire post in the last few bullet points. If you want a Riot response, you have to be concise. Anyways, I'm not 100% sure all your "problems" are really problems. * Niche from Single Abilities: I don't see how this is an issue. A champion's power doesn't have to be evenly spread across their kit, in fact I'd argue that that attitude is one of the biggest contributing factors to kit staleness and homogeneity. A single, high impact ability creates high moments when it succeeds while also giving opponents less and more specific mindshare to play around (e.g. the primary goal against Twitch becomes "don't let him get a good Ambush off" instead of "how can we use our abilities to run him over like any other ADC"). It can definitely be a problem when the ability itself is low interaction - Fiora's former ult, for example, pretty much decided someone's fate (sometimes hers, sometimes yours) the moment she pressed the button. Current Fiora has the opposite problem - her kit is so bland and generically powerful, she just kind of runs you over without you being able to play around any single one of her abilities. * Mechanical Dissonance: This is one of those things that seems bad in theory but tends to work really well in practice. "Mechanical Dissonance" is what adds REAL skill differentiation to playing champions. A bad Brand always throws his abilities out one at a time to maximize his passive; a good Brand always throws out his abilities at once to maximize his burst; a great Brand knows when he needs to cast all at once to burst, and when he needs to space them out to maximize his damage. He may not be able to whip out a calculator and calculate exactly how much damage he needs to kill you, but he develops a heuristic from having played his champion that is a very good approximation. And this is only one aspect of playing Brand! * Thematic Dissonance: You focus a lot on this, but it is really nowhere near as big a deal as you think it is. I don't have access to Riot's data, but I will hazard a guess that the vast majority of people play the champs they do for fun first and "looks neat" second. Also, thematic mismatches can add a lot of charm to otherwise boring cliches. For example, Mordekaiser visually looks like a generic NPC mid-boss you might find in some other game. But in League, suddenly he's a close range nuke wizard who takes over enemies' corpses! Gragas looks like some big, bulky generic tank. Maybe in another game he'd be an innkeeper. But in LoL, he explodes people from afar with his barrel! The mismatches work to make the character archetypal but unique. Furthermore, a lot of kits have no problem being fit to a weird theme and vice versa - it just takes good artists and a bit of creativity. It's a matter of whether you want a theme to fit around a good kit or a kit to fit around a good theme; and in a video game, gameplay comes first. It's the only advantage the medium has. * Homogenous Kits: I agree, this is stupid. They are finally doing something about it with the Roster Updates, but it seems they're too afraid to meaningfully touch problem classes. * Mechanical Overload: I agree, this is stupid. * Strategic Staleness: I have never felt this way. Laning is a fundamental part of the game, it is simply a consequence of how towers, levels, XP sharing and gold -- in other words, the basic rules of the game -- interact. Same goes for jungling. As far as teamfights and picks, well... don't take this the wrong way, but to me, it seems like a cop out excuse for losing. Picks happen at every ELO, in every meta. If people didn't make mistakes in LoL, there would never be any action, or any comebacks. * Generalist Kits: I agree, this is stupid. Riot being backing away from a rework due to negative community feedback is one of the most pathetic things I've witnessed a company do. Why even collect a paycheck, at that point? ... * Shoehorned Kits: I agree, this is stupid. Although I question your first two examples. * Burden of Knowledge: I don't see this as an issue. But I don't know if I should really weigh in on this since I've basically forgotten what it's like to be a new player. That's my opinion.
Gonna leave this one for ItemsGuy! I'm sorry, but according to how I feel right now mentally and physically, I'm afraid I won't be able to give you a satisfactory reply. Also, chances are ItemsGuy would be able to explain this to you way more clear and thorougly, anyway.
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Yaime Loveheart

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