Leaves (NA)
: Good morning, Meddler. In regards to twisted treeline gold funneling (known there as support meta): last season I was Challenger in NA 3s for most of the season (Feb - Aug, and Oct). I played over 500 games of the game mode throughout last year, but hardly any before that. I am by no means anywhere close to being one of the best at 3s, and I do not play it much currently (mainly due to hating support comp), but I feel like some higher elo input might be helpful on this matter. I mainly played bot lane (which is basically mid lane in summoners rift), but I also played probably 50-80 games as the support in gold funneling strats. After you hit diamond in 3s, it's like flicking on a switch and the entire meta changes. Up until then you almost exclusively see jungle meta with picks sucks as kayn, reksai, and Zac being common choices due to their ability to affect both lanes easily from many angles. At this elo both metas are considered equally good, since players are not yet coordinated enough to make full use of support meta's advantages. After diamond, though, you almost exclusively run into support comp picks, partially because you'll see a lot of the Challenger players smurfing in this elo. Having such a hard meta shift based on elo, much more severe than any seen on summoners rift, seems pretty bad for the 3s community since the way the game is played fundamentally changes based on what your rank is, meaning players hoping to get into high elo will have to basically throw away everything they've practiced and learned up until this point. When high elo players explain 3s strategies (such as in the 3s Bible by Divine), you'll usually see them refer to 3 different possible matchups: jungle vs jungle, jungle vs support, and support vs support. Support vs support is by far the least fun of the 3 options, as due to the nature of gold funneling, one lost fight basically decides a game with little to no means of comeback, since the winning team will invade and take all jungle camps of the losing team, starving the losing side of any means of income. As someone who has played with, as, and against support comps, it feels very bad knowing that a game can be decided not only by one lost fight but also by which carry is the most efficient at farming. Support vs jungle is similarly frustrating to play, mainly from the jungle side. This matchup feels like a race against time, as many of the funnel carries played in 3s are ones that can easily 1v3 with a lead (master yi, Kayle, Darius, yasuo, etc). This matchup puts the pressure on the jungler to be extremely aggressive, as even a moderate lead (3-5k gold) against support comp is not enough to guarantee a win. You can see this in the winrates of champions on the map-- champions only played in support comps can and frequently rise to over 60% winrates overall (such as Kayle and Taric), because the very nature of their strategy means they get to circumvent the usual interaction with other players that would otherwise keep their weak early games in check. The final matchup, jungle vs jungle, is also very snowbally, but doesn't rely on a single person's performance as much as the other two matchups. A game can be won by a bot laner instead of only a jungler or hypercarry, which means bot lane can play more aggressive picks and be rewarded for gaining leads, whereas in support comp you'll frequently see players encouraged to pick passive utility champions like Morgana, Veigar, and Karma (although not exclusively). From the bot lane perspective, having a jungler on one or both teams makes the game more interesting-- bot lane in 3s is much like top lane on Summoners Rift, in that when both teams are running support comp you are frequently just left to your own devices and are rarely in any position of agency over the outcome of the game. Even if you gain a lead over the other bot laner, it doesn't matter if the enemy Yi and Taric have steamrolled your teammates. I personally would like to see the jungle item changes implemented in twisted treeline. I don't think the ones currently live on Summoners Rift will kill the strategy in any way, mainly because people are stubborn. Those who are good at support meta will continue to do it, and I think this nerf (reducing lane gold when you have the most gold and a jungle item) will merely slow down support comp instead of killing it. Unlike summoners rift funneling, most hyper carries (with the exception of a couple, like Mordekaiser) on Twisted Treeline will rush their completed tier 3 jungle item, so this nerf will only effect their income up until that point, since it only applies to tiers 1 and 2. Slowing down their first item purchase will give jungle comp teams a larger window to impact a support comp at their weakest stage, which will make support vs jungle more of a skill matchup instead of a race against the clock. It'll also have the benefit of slowing down support vs support games, which in my experience have been very volatile and quick games depending on the matchup. Support comp does NOT need to be flat out removed, as it does actually help out quite a lot with overall champion diversity when it isn't crowding out jungle meta. Right now the balance is not even though, support comp is considered so much better in high elo that you're basically guaranteed a loss in a match with 2 even teams if you play vs a support comp team. If support comp can be reigned back in a bit with a nerf like this, then you might actually see a jungler more than once every 30 games in Challenger.
As a fellow s7 chally 3s player, Leaves hits the nail on the head here. Almost every game being support vs support comp killed the mode for me because, honestly, who wants to play a mode where you farm for 10 min and decide the game off of one teamfight? Playing jungle vs support is even worse, with almost every game being a race against time ("Shit we're only up 5k gold and at their inhib at 15 min and the enemy Kayle's already at one item! Guess we lose this one"). I'm not implying I'm a fantastic 3s player by any stretch of the imagination (especially since I haven't played in half a season), but I believe the simple lack of diversity in 3s is what keeps many former 3s players away.
Lùmen (EUNE)
: Title - Challenger Diamond Clickbait
> [{quoted}](name=Lùmen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3AfdfpEE,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-07-10T21:38:33.603+0000) > > Title - Challenger > Diamond > Clickbait 600lp mmr and d1 from decay = diamond skill i guess =/
Rioter Comments
: There's a few things I think they should change with him. I'll list them 1. revert his rake and ult 2. for his Q to turn into a blink when he's in ult 3. for his passive to change from 'hit 3 abilities then aa to proc' to execution style like old duskblade.(still a bleed, just procs by chunking them to 30% hp)
> [{quoted}](name=Demonblade Talon,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=mV6wFAdY,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-05-09T00:54:46.062+0000) > > There's a few things I think they should change with him. I'll list them > 1. revert his rake and ult > 2. for his Q to turn into a blink when he's in ult > 3. for his passive to change from 'hit 3 abilities then aa to proc' to execution style like old duskblade.(still a bleed, just procs by chunking them to 30% hp) Just because you don't like new Talon doesn't mean he needs a revert :)
Altaïr (NA)
: Sorry, for the cell phone quality, but here's a quick example of the bug i mean: https://imgur.com/a/uXSzUpR You can see in the first rotation that the auto attack counter properly resets after the melee q. However, in the second rotation not only does the auto attack not reset after the q, but talon literally just freezes and stands there for a full 2 seconds before being able to auto attack again. This bug is super annoying for me when I'm trying to maximize dps with my melee q during an all in. Any thoughts on this or similar experiences?
> [{quoted}](name=Blood Moon Talon,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=mV6wFAdY,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-09T03:11:53.471+0000) > > Sorry, for the cell phone quality, but here's a quick example of the bug i mean: > > https://imgur.com/a/uXSzUpR > > You can see in the first rotation that the auto attack counter properly resets after the melee q. However, in the second rotation not only does the auto attack not reset after the q, but talon literally just freezes and stands there for a full 2 seconds before being able to auto attack again. > > This bug is super annoying for me when I'm trying to maximize dps with my melee q during an all in. Any thoughts on this or similar experiences? Oh, yeah. I've definitely experienced this. It's #10 but I'll include your link for reference. Thanks :)
AidanWR (NA)
: I believe number 4 is intentional due to the fact that the blades don't converge on him if he dies while in ult, but I could be reading the situation that you laid out wrong
> [{quoted}](name=AidanWR,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=mV6wFAdY,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-05-09T04:46:40.832+0000) > > I believe number 4 is intentional due to the fact that the blades don't converge on him if he dies while in ult, but I could be reading the situation that you laid out wrong The thing is, when this happens, your auto and passive will proc, but your ult won't. Since your auto went off, this means the blades should converge because you died after you autoed. But they don't.
Ðiamant (NA)
: For 11, the moonwalk is caused by tiamat active from my experience
> [{quoted}](name=Ðiamant,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=mV6wFAdY,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-05-09T02:47:09.091+0000) > > For 11, the moonwalk is caused by tiamat active from my experience Yeah that could be it. I don't think I've seen it until I started buying tiamat a few months ago.
Ðiamant (NA)
: Another huge problem with Talon's E that doesn't happen as often but is just as frustrating is with player made terrain. trying to use E when next to player made terrain sometimes results in him standing still, backflipping, or just walking back and forth, can happen with anything from Azir wall to Jarvan ult or Trundle pillar. More of an extension of Bug 9.
> [{quoted}](name=Ðiamant,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=mV6wFAdY,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-09T00:29:27.146+0000) > > Another huge problem with Talon's E that doesn't happen as often but is just as frustrating is with player made terrain. trying to use U when next to player made terrain sometimes results in him standing still, backflipping, or just walking back and forth, can happen with anything from Azir wall to Jarvan ult or Trundle pillar. More of an extension of Bug 9. Hm.. yea probably a bug but I find it's pretty easy to play around it by spamming e while moving your mouse around in the general direction.
Altaïr (NA)
: I've been having a bug with the aa q aa cancel every once in awhile ever since the rework. If I post a video of this in practice tool, after work tonight, will you take a look at it?
> [{quoted}](name=Blood Moon Talon,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=mV6wFAdY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-09T00:09:16.786+0000) > > I've been having a bug with the aa q aa cancel every once in awhile ever since the rework. If I post a video of this in practice tool, after work tonight, will you take a look at it? Yeah sure. I know what you're talking about if it's the second auto not going off. Happens once in a while to me
: For number 2 did you mean the bottom right nexus turret? also theres a visual bug for when you E (usually during combat/right after combat) you dont go over the terrain but "through" it.
> [{quoted}](name=1RiceBowl1x,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=mV6wFAdY,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-05-09T00:33:42.289+0000) > > For number 2 did you mean the bottom right nexus turret? > > also theres a visual bug for when you E (usually during combat/right after combat) you dont go over the terrain but "through" it. Yeah that bug happens when you e right after you q. Also, yes. Forgot to mention nexus turret lol
: 5 is not a bug. Also probably isn't terribly bad, since 9/10 times you'd want the dash, it's for an additional auto for a kill. Since your Q does more than your autos, doubling the damage on it really shouldn't have any serious impact on you. 8 is probably because they end up spawning inside the wall's hitbox. So that's not a *bug*, but just a normal interaction (Projectile is destroyed on hitting Yasuo's wall) that seems odd. And, for 7, that's probably some weird interaction where Yasuo isn't inside Talon's blades from his ult during any tick for it. If he passes through it *just* at the right time, it's entirely possible that Yasuo might not actually be within any of his blade's hitboxes when it checks for collision. Which is probably less a bug and more just a weird, once in a lifetime interaction.
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=LqLKtMpN,discussion-id=mV6wFAdY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-08T23:38:36.733+0000) > > 5 is not a bug. Also probably isn't terribly bad, since 9/10 times you'd want the dash, it's for an additional auto for a kill. Since your Q does more than your autos, doubling the damage on it really shouldn't have any serious impact on you. > > 8 is probably because they end up spawning inside the wall's hitbox. So that's not a *bug*, but just a normal interaction (Projectile is destroyed on hitting Yasuo's wall) that seems odd. > > And, for 7, that's probably some weird interaction where Yasuo isn't inside Talon's blades from his ult during any tick for it. If he passes through it *just* at the right time, it's entirely possible that Yasuo might not actually be within any of his blade's hitboxes when it checks for collision. Which is probably less a bug and more just a weird, once in a lifetime interaction. 5 is really bad but I agree it's not a bug. Melee q is a self-stun past melee range because you can't follow up with an auto afterwards, meaning you also don't get the passive proc (the standard talon combo ends with q-aa). Talon's auto range after melee q should either be increased or melee q should be decreased. 8 is a bug because each of Talon's blades in ult should be coded individually (like the 3 blades for w, but they're all coded as the same, meaning they all disappear if one hits the wall. 7 i just didn't notice the ult did damage lol. my b
Rioter Comments
Ramaero (NA)
: Talon should NOT be reverted,slight update or rework perhaps,but not reverted,he is not Rengar or LB
The only people who think Talon needs a revert are the ones who aren't good enough to play new Talon. Old talon was braindead and required very little skill to stomp when ahead (getting ahead is another story, of course). New talon actually requires an understanding of macro and how to end a game to play properly. The silvers/golds asking for a revert just want their low-skill, poorly designed stomp-in-lowelo champ back.
: Hi. I'm running around between meetings and various other commitments atm so I can't gives this a ton of engagement right now, but it sounds like we're going to increase his Q range, which I guess got bugged several patches ago to be shorter than intended somehow.
> [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nrE6Pj0X,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2018-04-17T00:20:09.726+0000) > > Hi. I'm running around between meetings and various other commitments atm so I can't gives this a ton of engagement right now, but it sounds like we're going to increase his Q range, which I guess got bugged several patches ago to be shorter than intended somehow. Repertoir, as a challenger talon otp, I just want to mention: Talon's already in a very good spot right now. Across euw, na, and kr, there are 3 challenger talon top players and 1 talon mid player. While I strongly agree that the q range bugs (both ranged and melee) along with the backflip bug should be fixed, please be very careful not to over-buff him. Due to the nature of his kit, Talon is one of the hardest macro champs to play in the game - to the point where even dedicated one tricks will often play him very sub-optimally. If he is buffed to the point where sub optimal becomes strong, then he will be completely broken in the hands of more competent players. Further, please keep in mind that Talon's high e mobility should be balanced out with a slightly lower q range, making the low q range not as weak as people may believe. An example: If a good Talon player wants to engage on an enemy laner, he will simply walk out of lane and e back in to close the gap. A bad Talon player will attempt to walk up to q, getting kited and poked out. Low q range rewards good Talon players and punishes the bad players.
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Yamikaze

Level 111 (NA)
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