: why do mages and adcs refuse to just build ninja tabi?
By the time you have upgraded boots, Zed's combo will overkill you by a significant amount and the 20 armor won't save you. Also, some mid laners are reliant on Sorcerers penetration to clear the wave in one shot. If you have to wait for a second cast, you're significantly increasing the time your opponent has to interact with you, and every interaction with an assassin will potentially end up with you dying.
: "I pinged"
1. If they don't have vision, they can't safely follow. 2. If they lose vision while following, they have to stay away from where they lost vision until the enemy mid reappears. 3. If they're immobile and the enemy jungle's location isn't known, they can't safely follow. 4. If they can't duel the other champion in the river, they have to stay 3-5 seconds behind even if they do follow. 5. If by the time they can safely follow you're likely dead, it's not worth it for them to waste time walking up to your lane. 6. If your lane or their lane is fed, it's not worth following, regardless. Whether or not you can follow your opponent or even push when they leave the lane is entirely dependent on the match up and the enemy jungle.
bigmatti (NA)
: Scuttle changes impact on Camille Jungle
The E not stunning was added specifically because they don't want Camille in the jungle. I highly doubt they care about Scuttle changes impacting her.
: Recommended jungler anyone?
Udyr stomps until Diamond. And then he gets kited.
: > [{quoted}](name=TomiMan7,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YdfMYwEa,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2019-04-24T23:27:20.728+0000) > > Why would you want to remove rylias? its not a healthy item and has led to issues in the past. its one thing if mages have windowed slow actives available like {{item:3030}} {{item:3905}}. those are well designed, and interesting interactive items. especially with the additional ability to invest into glacial augment. for one, rylais steps on these items design space. a slow just added to all of your spells is in most situations just better than a cooldown active that does something similar. but rylais on certain champions with magic damage over time effects can also lead to heavy abuse cases where these champions are basically permaslowing their opponents. its important to understand that permaslows like that are not a counter to mobility or hypermobility. champions like {{champion:92}} {{champion:238}} etc. are still going to be mobile and dash all over the place despite being slowed. however champions that are already slower can be completely shut out of a game because of perma slow mechanics which make it impossible for them to move and play the game. in my opinion items like rylais only enforce mobility creep instead of counteracting it, because of how much bigger of an impact it has on champions that arent very mobile to begin with. since its so easy to counter already low mobile champions with rylais, just the threat of getting shut out of the game by the items existence makes mobile picks more valuable. there is opportunity here for a mage item that creates a short windowed grounded effect instead. for example something like a smaller karthus wall that grounds people who are moving into it. i have a similar opinion on {{item:3022}} by the way. mallet isnt quite as terrible because its unatractive for most ranged champions and doesnt apply to spells which limits its use cases more than rylais. but passive reapplying slows are not a great mechanic overall. > Liandries are for tank bustung mages and bot for burst mages. its honestly too broken and should be removed then. a lot of the mages you mentioned need literally this one item to deal carry levels of damage even from the support position. to put this into perspective, {{item:3151}} increases a **single application** of {{champion:63}} passive from 4% max health damage over 4 seconds to 14,5% by base over 7 seconds, and 21.5% over 7 seconds against a cced target. rylais + liandries literally quintuples the damage of one of brands passive applications. for the amount of gold invested, this is just way too much power some of these champions get. the madness passive is fine imo. i just have a problem with how powerful the % health burn is for specific champions. its just as problematic on champions like {{champion:74}} {{champion:143}} etc. for a single 2600 gold item its way too powerful on those champions to the point that they are heavily balanced around liandries existence. a great way to kill build diversity is to add an item to the game that is so overpowered for some champions that they are balanced around it, and can not function if they dont build rylais + liandries every single game.
> [{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YdfMYwEa,comment-id=001400000000,timestamp=2019-04-24T23:59:29.504+0000) > > its one thing if mages have windowed slow actives available like {{item:3030}} {{item:3905}}. those are well designed, and interesting interactive items. especially with the additional ability to invest into glacial augment. Uhh You're aware these items with Glacial Augment provide the champions who abuse them with 90% guaranteed zero counterplay kills on immobile champions, right? The window is pointless because team fights are over within seconds, and the cooldown is so low that it's going to be up for every team fight. Walking into lane, throwing out my item active, and proceeding to stomp a target who both can't escape me and has no possibility of dodging my abilities is in no way healthy. Try playing against a Morgana with this. Being forced to sit in one full duration W and a second half duration W with literally no way to avoid or escape it short of Flashing is incredibly fun.
: I would suggest your doing it wrong. If he uses W to trade, the you should get a very long Cd to farm safely and harass him back, if he holds on to it, then he really isn't that hard to deal with. Same thing with using his abilities to push wave, he uses Q to farm? you have a window where he can not trade very well. I by no means enjoy that matchup with most mages, but it is by no means the "hugging the tower for 10 mins" nightmare you make it out to be.
> [{quoted}](name=Fear The Sphere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b0WApoV0,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-04-25T00:46:11.702+0000) > > I would suggest your doing it wrong. If he uses W to trade, the you should get a very long Cd to farm safely and harass him back, if he holds on to it, then he really isn't that hard to deal with. Same thing with using his abilities to push wave, he uses Q to farm? you have a window where he can not trade very well. I by no means enjoy that matchup with most mages, but it is by no means the "hugging the tower for 10 mins" nightmare you make it out to be. What? You've probably never played against a Diamond+ Zed main. Zed puts his W on top of you and hits you with E + at least one Q. It's unavoidable. That combo deals 473 damage at level 7 with only Serrated Dirk. Casters have about 44 armor and 960 health with Chapter. Lethality reduces the armor to 37. Total damage taken after armor is around 347. That's 36% of your max health. If he lands two shurikens, it does about 443 damage, or about 46% of your max health. This is low enough for him to just ult and kill you once his cooldowns are back up. You now **also** have to play around his shadow, because it effectively zones you from the wave, and you're creating distance from your turret by side stepping around it to continue CSing. Zed can use this for cover while he picks up some CS before the shadow drops, then get the rest from a safe range with Q, only missing maybe one or two. Absolute worst case scenario, he does this twice and always misses the second Q, and the third time he can kill you with his ult. It's unavoidable damage, and most mid laners have no way to reliably trade with him when he does this, either because the minions are blocking your skill shots or because he's too far away to guarantee a skill shot lands. If you try to rush Armguard, you just delay the time he needs to kill you to three W + E + Q combos, instead of four, with the added bonus that you quickly run OOM and have to leave lane, giving him plating gold, priority over objectives, and also free roams, which is potentially even worse than if he had just killed you.
: Got a GrandMaster and a D4 in my SIlver match
'It's just normal MMR ecks dee' is just an idiotic way to say you don't know why this happens. Normal MMR is largely unimportant. The system prioritizes creating games fast and will completely ignore MMR if it can't quickly start a close game. It also doesn't try to create games where everyone has similar MMR, it only tries to create games where the **average** MMR is close, and even then, it will still just grab whoever it can to get a game going fast. It makes no effort to keep everyone's MMR close, and if there are two premades in queue, it makes even less effort. i.e. the system will throw two Diamond players onto a team with three Bronze players against a team of five Gold players and call it a fair match, because the MMR on both teams averages it out, regardless of the two Diamond players being miles ahead of everyone. Or if there's nobody playing, it will just throw the first 10 players it can find into a game.
Rylalei (EUNE)
: What if Zed had mana instead of energy?
> instead of the normal WEQ half your health or mindless push he does. The WEQ is still going to dumpster you before he runs out of mana. This is the #1 problem with him and giving him mana won't fix it.
Jamaree (NA)
: The next time you find a champion OP, do yourself a favor and play.
Except, you know, the 90% of cases where that OP champion is a melee top laner, the vast majority of which have an insane burden of knowledge, which you won't have until you've played dozens of games and every match up.
: Toplane Balance
Non-ranged/non-tank top lane match ups are almost completely binary and virtually all have a heavy burden of knowledge. The lane is just complete and utter dog shit.
Quepha (NA)
: Stashu's Cassiopeia rework for the Shurima event is a strong competitor. Riot admitted that Azir's release was rushed to make this event and although they never admitted it, it's pretty obvious this rework was also rushed. It changed her main spell and reversed her power curve by tying a bunch of spell mechanics to a stacking ability that felt like her spells were neutered until an arbitrary timestamp and demanded you farm in a really awkward fashion. Basically you just started the match with half your AP ratios until the 30 minute mark, or if you did nothing but play solitaire with minions you could shorten that to the 25 minute mark. It didn't change her spells but still forced mains to play her completely differently, and focused on the reset mechanic that was still super clunky and unreliable. Now we get to the strong evidence that the rework was blatantly rushed: There was a bug with her E reset that was caught and reported by players on both the PBE and live servers which could hurt her twin fang dps output by 20-40% and still made it feel as clunky as pre-rework when a major feature was to make it feel better (remember that this was supposed to be the new focus of the whole champion). Then Riot simply refused to talk or do anything about it for weeks, and then the only news they gave us was that, due to upcoming holidays and competitive matches, they would be unable to make any fixes to Cassiopeia FOR TWO MORE MONTHS. This left her with one of the worst winrates in League history for months while everyone knew it was partially due to a major known bug to her flagship spell.
> [{quoted}](name=Quepha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AczAXqXY,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-04-24T06:59:22.358+0000) > > Stashu's Cassiopeia rework for the Shurima event is a strong competitor. Riot admitted that Azir's release was rushed to make this event and although they never admitted it, it's pretty obvious this rework was also rushed. > > It changed her main spell and reversed her power curve by tying a bunch of spell mechanics to a stacking ability that felt like her spells were neutered until an arbitrary timestamp and demanded you farm in a really awkward fashion. Basically you just started the match with half your AP ratios until the 30 minute mark, or if you did nothing but play solitaire with minions you could shorten that to the 25 minute mark. It didn't change her spells but still forced mains to play her completely differently, and focused on the reset mechanic that was still super clunky and unreliable. > > Now we get to the strong evidence that the rework was blatantly rushed: There was a bug with her E reset that was caught and reported by players on both the PBE and live servers which could hurt her twin fang dps output by 20-40% and still made it feel as clunky as pre-rework when a major feature was to make it feel better (remember that this was supposed to be the new focus of the whole champion). Then Riot simply refused to talk or do anything about it for weeks, and then the only news they gave us was that, due to upcoming holidays and competitive matches, they would be unable to make any fixes to Cassiopeia FOR TWO MORE MONTHS. This left her with one of the worst winrates in League history for months while everyone knew it was partially due to a major known bug to her flagship spell. I disagree, she was borderline unplayable garbage prior to the rework. The rework made her not only viable but insanely overpowered, even with the reset bug. I easily stomped games with her as high as 85 LP Diamond I until she fell out of the meta in Season 6. https://i.imgur.com/8hriCqm.jpg[] https://i.imgur.com/X4cZKOy.jpg[]
: I don't get lux
She can't one shot you with those items, her full combo will only do maybe 70% of your health. And her damage is balanced around her entire kit being avoidable, so if she kills you, it's because you didn't dodge a Q and someone else already damaged you
: Morgana nerfs
Because after the MS boost being added to her ult, Morgana now offers literally zero counter play at mid lane unless her opponent has strong non-movement speed mobility, especially with the Glacial Augment build. 1. Slow them with Hextech active. 2. Drop W directly on top of them. 3. Walk towards them and ult. 4. Intercept whatever disengage or CC they have with E. 5. Get into melee range and hit a point blank bind; between Glacial Augment and your ult, they're at minimum movement speed and basically cannot move, and they're still in your W. 6. Drop another W on top of them. Between Hextech slow, ult slow, bind, and ult stun, they have to eat the full duration W and then some. You can't kill her before she kills you, because she's healing ~1/3 of her health bar from her passive and also absorbing part of your damage with E. At this point, they're dead. **Without including W's insane bonus damage**, at level 9 with only Hextech + Doran's, this does about 1350 damage, reduced to ~1000 after magic resist. Most mid laners only have around 1100-1200 health. If you estimate her W averages 80% bonus damage over its duration, the full damage of the combo exceeds 2000, almost double the opponent's health before MR. At level 9. They're likely going to just keep nerfing her damage.
: Top laner isn't meant for Tankers or Juggernauts anymore
Tanks could use more power, but juggernauts being strong picks is a sign that the game is unhealthy, because they literally revolve around running their opponent down with little to no skill expression. There's no way for them to be good without being overpowered, because they're so binary and have an insanely low skill ceiling: they can either successfully run their target down or they can't.
: The classic skin does the same, you don't know the (tbh, true) threads about it docking onto you even out of hitbox?
> [{quoted}](name=Laufplanke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aZsoBERI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-23T01:22:18.523+0000) > > The classic skin does the same, you don't know the (tbh, true) threads about it docking onto you even out of hitbox? The classic skin shows a circle around the shark that gives you a more accurate idea of where the hit box is, even if it's not exact. This skin doesn't have the circle, which makes the hitbox insanely misleading; it's actually 2-3 times larger than the projectile. This skin should not have been released like this. Custom VFX really need to be given more consideration. People are slower to react to moving objects that blends with the environment colors, compared to objects that contrast with it. Projectiles that are bright and red/blue are easier to react to than dark or green/brown projectiles.
: So Hashinshin was complaining from Renekton being overbuffed and Kled being weak right now...
Can someone go dig up the clip from a few weeks ago where Hashinshin is something like 0-2-0 as Hecarim against Kennen, sitting in brush at 40% health while Kennen is full health, and then he literally just runs Kennen down, kills him through his ult, and goes '.. Oh' Ranged top laners have no counterplay ecks dee
: Is it bad gameplay, if a champion does the following...
Top laners don't like these champions because they 'break' the normal lane dynamic: both champions are melee, can't avoid interaction with the other, and the outcome of the lane is either decided at champion select or by which champion makes a single misplay first, barring massive jungle intervention. This entire lane is cancer and should be somehow reworked. But with that said, there are virtually no champions who Riven and Renekton can't get on top of (even if not straight up kill), assuming an adequately skilled player. Their gap closers are longer than ranged champions' auto range. tl;dr the 'bad gameplay' is with the majority of top champions, not the champions who have tools to deny them success by keyboard mashing. The entire lane is both binary and brain dead.
roughvan (EUNE)
: No. If two people dive a squishy champion, most of the time the only way for him to outplay is to rely on it. It actually brings variety and gives you a chance to outplay compared to normal 100% death.
> [{quoted}](name=roughvan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eKbglyQQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-23T01:55:35.606+0000) > > No. > > If two people dive a squishy champion, most of the time the only way for him to outplay is to rely on it. It actually brings variety and gives you a chance to outplay compared to normal 100% death. The only squishy champions who take Triumph are ADCs and Katarina, and if someone wants to dive them 2v1, they're just flat out going to die without killing anything, so Triumph does nothing. Unless maybe we're talking about some low quality Gold games, which I'm not an expert in. This rune primarily helps champions win poorly or completely un-calculated fights where they would normally trade kills, but end up surviving because their killing blow lands a fraction of a second before the opponent's.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: I like how people on the boards act like memory never existed when it comes to zed
\> A lot of champions have 56% win rate in master + **because the sample is low, there aren't even that much of zed players on NA in high elo** He has the #1 pick rate (11.1%) and also highest one trick win rate of all mid champions at Master+. Not even going to read the rest of this shit. At this point, you're just spewing misinformation to try to support your view. Thread is over, go home folks.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: He has no counterplay, yet ints so hard when played in pro in NA =? stopped reading here
> [{quoted}](name=D357R0Y3R,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gj3EG572,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-04-10T23:42:34.047+0000) > > He has no counterplay, yet ints so hard when played in pro in NA > > =? > > stopped reading here How do you explain his 56% win rate in Master+ NA? Challenger Zed mains have one of the highest average win rates, at 61-62% Or are you talking about LCS? That's a completely different game from ranked solo queue/organized teams.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: I like how people on the boards act like memory never existed when it comes to zed
The problem with Zed is that he's oppressive with no reasonable counter play in a large majority of his match ups. Try playing a champion that can't clear the wave from beyond his W range. It's only a matter of time until he lands a W + E + double Q on you, and even if he misses one of the Q's, you're still losing a huge chunk of your health to the unavoidable W + E + single Q. You can't really punish him after he uses it, either, because he'll just sacrifice a couple of CS and rely on Q to farm from a safe range until it's back up. You also can't play safely against him if he gets any early advantage, because his ultimate facilitates very safe/easy turret dives. Most champions can't itemize against this; Armguard rush does nothing to help you survive, and Zhonya rush isn't viable because you need at least Lost Chapter or you can't stay in lane. If you do rush Armguard and skip Lost Chapter, you constantly have to recall and lose hard on CS, while being unable to punish Zed from roaming because you're OOM. These nerfs don't fix how oppressive he is.
: > [{quoted}](name=Dweeebles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ArQp99Ek,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-09T23:45:45.715+0000) > > Well first of all, you have to level up to level 30 before you can play ranked. That is a grind in itself and can easily account for a time for people to try out champs. Otherwise you would have to try them out in a normal game post level 30. It is not that hard to figure out. Ok... they try the champion... they'll feed just as hard regardless. I said before you can have 6869776577758358 mastery points and still feed like crazy just like you can have no mastery points whatsoever and still perform the best in the entire game. Mastery is completely useless and does nothing at all. Bad players will still play badly, good players would do decently regardless
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ArQp99Ek,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T00:10:07.486+0000) > > Ok... they try the champion... they'll feed just as hard regardless. I said before you can have 6869776577758358 mastery points and still feed like crazy just like you can have no mastery points whatsoever and still perform the best in the entire game. Mastery is completely useless and does nothing at all. Bad players will still play badly, good players would do decently regardless You go into a ranked game and pick a mechanically intensive champion that also has a high burden of knowledge, which you've only played once in your life. You're laned against a Diamond III Riven main with 2 million mastery. You're going to feed, period. It doesn't matter how good you are at the game. You can't take a champion that you don't know how to play into a ranked game against someone who is an expert at their champion and knows all the match ups and expect to do well.
iiGazeii (NA)
: There's really nothing else to buff. His autos hurt. His Q hurts. His W hurts. His passive is fantastic. With how his kit works, buffing any sort of base values quickly spirals out of control. His ult is kind of lackluster. The cooldown is long and it makes him totally vulnerable, but it can feel like it does no damage unless the enemy is about to die or you've built lethality. I think "CDR Jhin" is gonna become a thing. Start lethality, then get Essence Reaver instead of IE, maybe grab runes like Transcendence and Presence of Mind, and you can just trap the everloving crap out of the bot lane and spam your ult at the enemy.
> [{quoted}](name=iiGazeii,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b7rLwwFf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-10T06:32:38.149+0000) > > There's really nothing else to buff. His autos hurt. His Q hurts. His W hurts. His passive is fantastic. With how his kit works, buffing any sort of base values quickly spirals out of control. > > His ult is kind of lackluster. The cooldown is long and it makes him totally vulnerable, but it can feel like it does no damage unless the enemy is about to die or you've built lethality. > > I think "CDR Jhin" is gonna become a thing. Start lethality, then get Essence Reaver instead of IE, maybe grab runes like Transcendence and Presence of Mind, and you can just trap the everloving crap out of the bot lane and spam your ult at the enemy. The artificial limit on his attack speed and reload time makes it impossible for him to compete late game with the current itemization, despite him doing a lot of damage. When you factor in the reload time, Jhin's overall damage in team fights is atrocious, especially with fights only lasting a couple of seconds. He only gets four autos every ~6 seconds, and if even one of them doesn't crit, his damage is neutered. i.e. ignoring everything except for items for simplicity: with IE, RFC, PD, and GA, at level 15, Jhin does about 2292 (+25% missing health) damage in 5.8 seconds. Any other non-Draven ADC with the same itemization, ignoring any abilities, will do a little over 3000 in ~5.5 seconds. With team fights being over so quickly and the game being focused on 'kill them before they kill you,' the constant damage output is much more important than Jhin's inconsistent and unreliable damage. Unless crit itemization goes away or the reload mechanic is changed, it's unlikely they can make him a good pick without breaking his auto damage.
Rock MD (NA)
: We've nerfed the W a million times and she's still a problem. The problem is her Q. It gives her a lot of lane safety because she clears very quickly and very safely and allows her to scale up to her one shot potential with almost no ability to properly trade into her.
> [{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T3RvvAEo,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-08T17:56:19.158+0000) > > We've nerfed the W a million times and she's still a problem. > > The problem is her Q. It gives her a lot of lane safety because she clears very quickly and very safely and allows her to scale up to her one shot potential with almost no ability to properly trade into her. The random component is still a pretty big problem, especially with summoner spells. It would be possibly be okay if we could see what the bubbles are going to drop, so we can play around it. Her Q gives her a lot of safety, but certain summoner spells can completely remove your ability to trade with or kill her, or certain combinations can allow her to basically run you down if you're playing a 100% skill shot reliant champion (i.e. she's holding a Ghost and then an Exhaust drops).
: > [{quoted}](name=Rhinoface,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjkUwENn,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2019-04-08T21:10:50.725+0000) > > Azir? lmao wtf An azir otp would be able to beat a riven due to the utility in his kit offering both long ranged damage and a lot of mobility
> [{quoted}](name=Hammermancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjkUwENn,comment-id=000000030000,timestamp=2019-04-08T21:18:48.825+0000) > > An azir otp would be able to beat a riven due to the utility in his kit offering both long ranged damage and a lot of mobility A Diamond+ Riven will beat Azir. Riven's all-in range is 710, Azir's maximum command range is 660 and his attack animation is kind of bad at low attack speeds, which makes it incredibly hard for him to bait Riven's engage. One engage on Azir will force him to blow his ult or die, and the second will kill him, at the cost of missing CS for ~10 seconds. There are very few, almost no, match ups that a Diamond+ Riven main doesn't win. Kennen is mentioned earlier, but Riven can kill Kennen from 100% health any time her Ignite and ult are both up, for the above reason (engage on him if he tries to auto you, 710 range is longer than his 550 AA range and if executed correctly, he'll have lost 60-70% of his health before he gets out of the stun and knock up). Statistics are skewed because Riven is currently broken and doesn't require mastery to succeed with, so we have a lot of people who are mediocre with Riven picking her and losing match ups with high burden of knowledge. However, it's impossible to have real discussion because 99% of the population has never played against a highly skilled Riven main.
Yenn (NA)
: Struggling to understand how three 5-minute lobbies is worse than one 15 minute queue
Haha, oh boy, currently sitting in my 5th lobby after trying to get into a game for 15 minutes. Auto-fill sure does a great job of keeping queue times low, regardless of the fact I'm still not getting into games!
: Wow a melee burst bruiser can outdamage you at close range what a suprise, too bad you can constantly whittle her down with autos till eventually you can tower dive her with your insane amount of burst and cc or force her to back and be down tons of cs while you farm her with klepto.
> [{quoted}](name=OMGLookat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8w6Yka7x,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2019-04-05T01:47:12.913+0000) > > Wow a melee burst bruiser can outdamage you at close range what a suprise, too bad you can constantly whittle her down with autos till eventually you can tower dive her with your insane amount of burst and cc or force her to back and be down tons of cs while you farm her with klepto. Yes, I'm clearly going to auto Riven to death during the 10 second window until she can E + Q + W onto me from 700+ range again. If Kennen **ever** whittles you down and kills you, it's because you're either bad at your champion/don't know the match up, or you're playing something like Garen and don't have any way to gap close. This thread is pretty much done, your game knowledge is too atrocious to even attempt to discuss game balance.
: What counter would that be?
> [{quoted}](name=OMGLookat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8w6Yka7x,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-04-05T01:16:50.420+0000) > > What counter would that be? Literally every champion that can touch him can dumpster at least 50% of his health in a single trade, or at least force him out of lane post-6, because his dueling capabilities are non-existent. Riven with Ignite can 100 to 0 him with Flash at level 6. You can't have actual discussion on Kennen here, because he does shit on anyone who doesn't know the match up. If you try playing Kennen at Diamond, most top laners will kill you if you get in auto range, while in lower MMR games, they'll just panic and run away instead of trading. i.e. Darius with Mercury Treads + Phage can basically just Ghost and run a Kennen with Protobelt down from the middle of the lane, and Kennen can't do anything to stop it, to give an idea of how easy it is to kill him. Or a Rengar jumping on you when you go to auto a minion, rooting you with empowered E, and dumpstering 80% of your health before you can get away. https://i.imgur.com/tygrDAT.gif[] Look at this Riven who is down 20-30 CS. She uses her 730 range engage to get on top of me when I go to auto her, screws up her combo and auto cancels very poorly, **and still takes about 50% of my health before the stun even wears off**, 70% with ult. Meanwhile, she ate Q + E +W + Q in the process, and only lost about 20-25% of her health. Kennen quite literally only wins lanes where his opponent takes a ton of free damage, and then stays in lane at 30% health and dies. Kennen can't 1v1 any champion from 100% health in a single trade; he has to hit you many times before he can go for a kill, meaning intelligent top laners (l m a o) can just recall and not die.
Antenora (EUW)
: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Jinx/ No losing matchups. Totally fine guys, not over the threshold. EGGSDII Vayne's win rate on the other hand is down over 0.6% in the space of this patch and appears to still be going down.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9edr9230,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-04T11:40:20.677+0000) > > https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Jinx/ > > No losing matchups. > > > > Totally fine guys, not over the threshold. > > EGGSDII > > Vayne's win rate on the other hand is down over 0.6% in the space of this patch and appears to still be going down. lolalytics is incredibly inaccurate. The win rate of all bottom lanes it displays averages 52%, which is clearly wrong. Even if you factor in random non-meta ADCs that don't appear in the list, they have to have <0.1% pick rate and wouldn't account for the missing 2%
YUUKI VK (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p0aF9lbY,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-04-04T03:26:09.521+0000) > > Have you tried killing Kennen? Just a thought. have you ever played vs a half decent one, they aa you to hell at 1, then yuo cant move. you try to fight, die, you sit back and lose farm while they get it and also extra shit from klepto spamming you
> [{quoted}](name=YUUKI VK,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p0aF9lbY,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-04-04T03:49:07.431+0000) > > have you ever played vs a half decent one, they aa you to hell at 1, then yuo cant move. you try to fight, die, you sit back and lose farm while they get it and also extra shit from klepto spamming you Kennen loses to every top lane that can all in him post-6 (Riven, Jax, Darius, Jarvan, etc.). His single target damage is terrible.
YUUKI VK (NA)
: can we MAYBE do something about klepto??? or hell ranged champs played to into melee
: How would you buff him, make his Q stun or something?
> [{quoted}](name=I love cowboys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4TqurmzB,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-04T00:34:56.494+0000) > > How would you buff him, make his Q stun or something? He doesn't need buffs. He's similar to Garen, but I believe his win rate was actually already higher: the champion is relatively brainless and has no room for skill expression, which in turn means they can never be strong picks without being overpowered.
: Probably never. Diamond cutoff right now is top 2-3% of league players. It is impossible to allow that many players into diamond without it being full of bad players. Riot essentially redefined what each division means, diamond 4 is what mid plat use to be. Diamond 1-2 is what the old diamond 4 use to be. The only "fix" would be to re-define the ladder so that all of the current d4 players move to plat, the current plat players move to gold, the current diamond 1 players get brought down to diamond 4 and the masters and grandmasters get spread among diamond 1-3 but that would also eliminate the whole point of addind grandmasters.
> [{quoted}](name=haaaaaaalp,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AlhYgW2W,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-04-03T07:37:32.627+0000) > > Probably never. Diamond cutoff right now is top 2-3% of league players. It is impossible to allow that many players into diamond without it being full of bad players. Riot essentially redefined what each division means, diamond 4 is what mid plat use to be. Diamond 1-2 is what the old diamond 4 use to be. > > The only "fix" would be to re-define the ladder so that all of the current d4 players move to plat, the current plat players move to gold, the current diamond 1 players get brought down to diamond 4 and the masters and grandmasters get spread among diamond 1-3 but that would also eliminate the whole point of addind grandmasters. That's not the issue; players in Plat IV to Plat I consistently play better than most of Diamond IV. The problem is that it's easy for mechanically good players with no decision making skill to climb to Diamond IV, because their opponents fall for cheese or can't deal with them playing hyper aggressively. Once you get to Diamond IV, it becomes a coin flip and any player who got there doing this can't drop because they all balance each other out, but they also can't climb. tl;dr Diamond IV is the ceiling for handicapped monkeys, so they all climb to it and then get stuck there, the end result being that it's saturated with them. It's been collecting these players for years, and nothing has been done to mitigate the successfulness of these idiotic high risk plays.
usul1202 (NA)
: So, are you saying that your team only has the bad players, or that the enemy team is better at abusing openings than you are?
> [{quoted}](name=usul1202,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AlhYgW2W,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-04-03T06:32:39.529+0000) > > So, are you saying that your team only has the bad players, or that the enemy team is better at abusing openings than you are? It happens on both sides, I'm saying that the issue is lane dependent. If I just hit level 6 and my top lane is level 5 with 3 deaths, there's nothing for me to do. If my top lane has 2 kills, but then dies 4 times in a row, there's nothing for me to do. There isn't anything to capitalize on unless they're in your lane, or in the case of throwing an advantage with consistently stupid plays, you literally can't do a single thing about it.
usul1202 (NA)
: If they're all so bad, shouldn't it be easier for you to climb?
> [{quoted}](name=usul1202,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AlhYgW2W,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-03T06:01:06.838+0000) > > If they're all so bad, shouldn't it be easier for you to climb? The problem is when the bad one is in another lane and rotates into my lane with 7 kills at 12 minutes, not when they're in my lane. 9/10 times, it's top lane or jungle player.
Yenn (NA)
: It's 2019 and Diamond IV is still a cesspool of mechanical players with Bronze IV decision making
I just lost a game where I traded lanes with our Hecarim, who cheesed the enemy Irelia at level 2, then killed her again at level 4. He then proceeded to dive four times in a row, failed every dive, and a couple minutes later he's level 6 while Irelia is almost level 9. However, if he had succeeded even one or two of those dives, he would have snowballed out of control and won the game. These players have too much ability to sabotage the game. This play style should not be rewarded.
Jamaree (NA)
: If Nasus is using his E to farm, he isn't using his Q which means it won't be doing shit all for damage end game, or are we really complaining about AP Nasus?
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KUPQAKad,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-02T04:11:43.430+0000) > > If Nasus is using his E to farm, he isn't using his Q which means it won't be doing shit all for damage end game, or are we really complaining about AP Nasus? It's not AP Nasus. It's regular Nasus with E max. Read my post above. With Manaflow Band and Iceborn, you'll run out of health before he runs out of mana unless you have built-in sustain.
: Instead of asking why it's viable, which btw just because you lose to something doesn't make it viable, ask how higher elo players are countering this strategy? Ask why isn't this played in higher elo as often as it should to be "viable". What I do vs nasus E max is rush a little mr like mr boots or if you don't have them yet, let him push you undertower. This is tricky because you have to bait his spirit fire, but you can take damage from it in the process (I don't know the exact cd of e early but I know its long). Also this ability costs a lot of mana for nasus so I recommend you either all in him/poke him when he's low on mana or all in him/poke him. E max sacrifices his Q damage, which is his all ining and exntended fight potential. Yeah with e max he gets a lot of poke damage but he loses his q potency (Even if he is farming stacks if he'd run out of mana too quickly if he did that and used spirit fire spam). Seeing the game where you lost to nasus E max I've noticed that you were playing kennen, a ranged champion with a big attack range and good poke vs the nasus. In that case there were a multitude of option available to completely negate nasus as kennen and it seems like he punished you going klepto by going E max and trying to poke you when you got near to get procs right? Even then going klepto is still good here. Most of the time a Nasus vs a Kennen shouldn't even to be able to get close to kennen. Also you can let him push you in and have an even easier time farming. The stuff I said above was assuming that you're melee and at a disadvantage.
> [{quoted}](name=emarythomp2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KUPQAKad,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-04-02T04:28:10.966+0000) > > Instead of asking why it's viable, which btw just because you lose to something doesn't make it viable, ask how higher elo players are countering this strategy? Ask why isn't this played in higher elo as often as it should to be "viable". What I do vs nasus E max is rush a little mr like mr boots or if you don't have them yet, let him push you undertower. This is tricky because you have to bait his spirit fire, but you can take damage from it in the process (I don't know the exact cd of e early but I know its long). Also this ability costs a lot of mana for nasus so I recommend you either all in him/poke him when he's low on mana or all in him/poke him. E max sacrifices his Q damage, which is his all ining and exntended fight potential. Yeah with e max he gets a lot of poke damage but he loses his q potency (Even if he is farming stacks if he'd run out of mana too quickly if he did that and used spirit fire spam). > > Seeing the game where you lost to nasus E max I've noticed that you were playing kennen, a ranged champion with a big attack range and good poke vs the nasus. > > In that case there were a multitude of option available to completely negate nasus as kennen and it seems like he punished you going klepto by going E max and trying to poke you when you got near to get procs right? Even then going klepto is still good here. Most of the time a Nasus vs a Kennen shouldn't even to be able to get close to kennen. Also you can let him push you in and have an even easier time farming. The stuff I said above was assuming that you're melee and at a disadvantage. At level 9, I have 1400 health. His E cooldown is 9 seconds with Iceborn; he can use it up to three times per wave, but probably only twice. It deals ~300 damage on the cast, and also zones me from poking him while he clears the wave, because I have to edge around the zone. Each wave, I take at least 300 damage from the first cast with Comet, more realistically about 500 damage if he uses it twice. After 2-3 waves, I'm near death and have to recall, because I have no way to sustain. With Iceborn first item, he has 1100 mana, plus 250 from Manaflow Band and the regeneration it gives, plus Corrupting Potion. Baseline, without regen, he can cast it 10 times (worth ~2500 damage if every other procs Comet). He can spam all he wants, there's no way for him to run out of mana before I run out of health. No matter what runes I'm using, Kennen needs to get into auto range (550) to last hit, vs. his 650 E range. I'm not sure why you even posted this, because you clearly have never experienced this and have poor working game knowledge (i.e. 'let Nasus push you,' Nasus has no choice to push to me, but his E is wide enough to cover most of the lane near the turret)
: Void Staff [Ideas for Changes]
I honestly can't even remember the last time I've seen someone build Void Staff, and the only ones you listed are completely shit on by the Adaptive Helm passive, which ignores penetration. There's no reason for this.
: In my experience, people just rush Zhonya's, run at someone and press R+Zhonya's, then just attack the wave to death because there's nobody alive to contest them doing that.
Kennen can't wave clear, that's why he's played in top lane. He's not good against most mid lane champions, because he gets permanently pushed in and can't defend against being sieged. > [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lNhI0gEE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-01T11:06:54.151+0000) > > In my experience, people just rush Zhonya's, run at someone and press R+Zhonya's, then just attack the wave to death because there's nobody alive to contest them doing that. Kennen does no damage with Zhonya rush and his entire combo only does about 30-40% of most top laners' max health. > [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lNhI0gEE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-04-01T15:56:59.569+0000) > > I mean, the point of picking him is to harass your lane opponent, not for the waveclear per say. Why else does every melee top want to commit suicide when something like Kennen gets picked? Because they don't know how to play the lane and don't retaliate when Kennen harasses them. That's why Kennen is countered by champions like Sylas and Riven, who can engage on him if he tries to auto them.
Warpes (NA)
: Why are people complaining about autofill in 2019?
This post is 100% wrong. Just because you know how to play every role doesn't mean you're in practice. If you only get auto-filled to top in only 1/50 games, you're going to have a bad time against a Diamond Riven one trick.
: Hashinshin complains that Hourglass + Protobelt gives 20% CDR, meanwhile Black Cleaver and Trinity..
News at 11: Hyper aggressive monkey complains about items that stop it from successfully running down opponents while playing like an idiot
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEOs0TKK,comment-id=0001000100010000,timestamp=2019-03-29T10:24:05.451+0000) > > Having a champion who AFK farms and contributes nothing to his team is not healthy or good design. This isn't even like Tryndamere, who scales hard and puts out heavy pressure while doing it, because Kennen puts out very little pressure. He's just a very safe champion. > > Most of the time, Kennen quite literally just sits at top lane while his team wins or loses the game. By the time he joins them, the game is already closed out. His skill floor and ceiling are almost identical. A champion with this little impact (in either direction) shouldn't exist. > > Also, Kennen is **intended** to be a strong team fighting champion, but he does a terrible job of it. That's reason enough that he should be changed. What proof of that do you have besides your anecdotal proof? Because where all you can show me is your low elo games, I can show you pro level players, quite literally the best in the world playing him and making him work against once again, the other best players in the game.
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEOs0TKK,comment-id=00010001000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-29T10:35:38.055+0000) > > What proof of that do you have besides your anecdotal proof? Because where all you can show me is your low elo games, I can show you pro level players, quite literally the best in the world playing him and making him work against once again, the other best players in the game. You mean you can show me pro players AFK farming for 30 minutes, then leaving lane with 300 CS and 3-4 items, team fighting effectively exactly one time, likely with Flash, and then winning or losing the game based on it. Which is a phenomenon exclusive to pro games. This is exactly something I explained in my post. The one that you clearly didn't read before making inflammatory comments. You're just spewing ignorant garbage at this point. Looking up Kennen stats in the LCS, he averages: 44% win rate 1.33 kills 1.78 deaths 4.11 assists 310.78 CS 1.33 kills + 4.11 assists = he's involved in 5 kills on average. Which translates to one team fight and supports exactly what I said.
Moody P (NA)
: What do you think could or should happen, in particular,
> [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEOs0TKK,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-29T10:29:24.962+0000) > > What do you think could or should happen, in particular, Just reworking his E to either give more defense and/or reliable mobility would fix him, so he can at least swap out his first item with something else. The two main problems are that it's incredibly hard to get into the enemy team with his E, and once he's in, he dies almost instantly if he doesn't Hourglass. One possible change could be to turn his E into something like Hexflash, or reducing the speed (which is already useless, because it pushes him over the cap) and letting him reactivate it to flash based on distance moved, and then lowering his early game Q and W damage to compensate.
Jamaree (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEOs0TKK,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-03-29T10:13:48.161+0000) > > Good constructive comment, ignoring my explanation of his win rate (i.e. it's incredibly hard for him to have negative impact, but he also doesn't have much positive impact) and contributing absolutely nothing. > > If there's nothing wrong with him, please explain why he has such a high win rate before he even finishes his core items. Why does it matter when he does have his highest win rate? He is clearly already in a decent spot, why does he need change?
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEOs0TKK,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2019-03-29T10:19:42.455+0000) > > Why does it matter when he does have his highest win rate? He is clearly already in a decent spot, why does he need change? Having a champion who AFK farms and contributes nothing to his team is not healthy or good design. This isn't even like Tryndamere, who scales hard and puts out heavy pressure while doing it, because Kennen puts out very little pressure. He's just a very safe champion. Most of the time, Kennen quite literally just sits at top lane while his team wins or loses the game. By the time he joins them, the game is already closed out. His skill floor and ceiling are almost identical. A champion with this little impact (in either direction) shouldn't exist. Also, Kennen is **intended** to be a strong team fighting champion, but he does a terrible job of it. That's reason enough that he should be changed.
: > [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEOs0TKK,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-03-29T10:15:19.491+0000) > > The bullying is also mentioned in my comment: he bullies you out of lane because you're bad at the game and don't know the match up. It's a you problem, unless you're something like Garen and Singed. > > I bullied the Riven out of lane multiple times prior to the video above, because she played the match up completely wrong and made no attempt to trade. > > If she had instead did the exact thing she did in that video when I tried to bully her even once, I would have had to play less aggressively. You simply have no clue what you are talking about and no, that's not just my opinion, just look at your Downvotes.
> [{quoted}](name=Laufplanke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEOs0TKK,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-29T10:17:18.549+0000) > > You simply have no clue what you are talking about and no, that's not just my opinion, just look at your Downvotes. Turns out it's hard to discuss a champion who low MMR players don't know how to deal with, when the majority of boards players are low MMR. Who would have thought. Imagine being so ignorant that you're still crying, even after I've posted a video demonstrating how to counter Kennen for you.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEOs0TKK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-29T10:10:22.377+0000) > > Remember everyone, when your champion has a decent play rate, an average to above average win rate across all elos globally, and sees pro play, they need updates, it couldn't just be that maybe you are bad, no no, they are the ones clearly in need of changing to YOUR specifications. > > https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Kennen/ And if your highest Winrate is in early it means that you don't do anything in lane and get carried. It doesn't mean he bullies everyone and everything out of lane.
> [{quoted}](name=Laufplanke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEOs0TKK,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-29T10:12:39.243+0000) > > And if your highest Winrate is in early it means that you don't do anything in lane and get carried. > It doesn't mean he bullies everyone and everything out of lane. The bullying is also mentioned in my comment: he bullies you out of lane because you're bad at the game and don't know the match up. It's a you problem, unless you're something like Garen and Singed. I bullied the Riven out of lane multiple times prior to the video above, because she played the match up completely wrong. If she had instead did the exact thing she did in that video when I tried to bully her even once, I would have had to play less aggressively. Instead, whenever I bullied her, she used her abilities to get away from me, after I had already finished my combo. This is what all bad players do.
Jamaree (NA)
: Remember everyone, when your champion has a decent play rate, an average to above average win rate across all elos globally, and sees pro play, they need updates, it couldn't just be that maybe you are bad, no no, they are the ones clearly in need of changing to YOUR specifications. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Kennen/
> [{quoted}](name=Jamaree,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEOs0TKK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-29T10:10:22.377+0000) > > Remember everyone, when your champion has a decent play rate, an average to above average win rate across all elos globally, and sees pro play, they need updates, it couldn't just be that maybe you are bad, no no, they are the ones clearly in need of changing to YOUR specifications. > > https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Kennen/ Good constructive comment, ignoring my explanation of his win rate (i.e. it's incredibly hard for him to have negative impact, but he also doesn't have much positive impact) and contributing absolutely nothing. If there's nothing wrong with him, please explain why he has such a high win rate before he even finishes his core items.
Yenn (NA)
: Kennen really needs his kit updated to 2019
Bonus video demonstrating why Kennen doesn't win lanes, unless played poorly. https://i.imgur.com/tygrDAT.gif[] This Riven is behind, but she engaged on me once when I went to auto, and I lost about 50% of my health. She also did a very poor job of animation cancelling. A Riven main would have dropped me to 25-30% health here. If she does this once, I have to stop playing aggressively and keep distance, because she can potentially kill me if she does it a second time.
Rock MD (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rbQYFoJy,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T03:08:08.425+0000) > > [DELETED CONTENT REMOVED - ULANOPO] ROFL what? Where did you get it in your head I duo so much? An overly generous estimate is I duo about 15-20% of my games, and I regret most of them. Duos try to get me to make a lot of plays I think are really dumb. Also, I'm extremely generous in the knowledge I share about the game. If i thought going duo helped so much I would've said something about it ages ago.
> [{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rbQYFoJy,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-28T03:13:17.903+0000) > > ROFL what? > > Where did you get it in your head I duo so much? An overly generous estimate is I duo about 15-20% of my games, and I regret most of them. Duos try to get me to make a lot of plays I think are really dumb. > > Also, I'm extremely generous in the knowledge I share about the game. If i thought going duo helped so much I would've said something about it ages ago. Are you actually trying to suggest that reducing the number of potentially AFK feeding monkeys/players with no decision making skill on your team from 4/5 to 3/5 doesn't infer any significant increase in win rate? That's so wrong that I don't even know what to say. The vast majority of my losses boil down to either one or two players with an absurd number of deaths (i.e. 8 in 15 minutes) giving the enemy team too much gold and not gaining relevance before the game ends, or players who have an advantage throwing it by making incredibly stupid decisions/not closing the game out with the advantage. Unless you play like a complete monkey when you duo, which I highly doubt you do, there's no way that you aren't gaining a significant advantage by doing it. You're removing one of the biggest outcome variables that you have no control over and replacing it with something you do.
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Yenn

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