: > [{quoted}](name=Yets4240,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AVAJkaH4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-16T02:39:16.847+0000) > > Not anywhere near as tanky as Rammus, and one shotting the squishiest class of characters in the game, who by rights should be balanced around requiring peel from their teammates should be the norm in a hyper-burst META like we've been in for, oh, 2-3 years now. Except you can't peel Hecarim. That's a major part of the problem. His R makes him cc immune, and forcibly scatters the enemy team with a 2 second fear. By the time it wears off, he's already oneshot the adc with his triforce E. There's no possible way to stop it.
Or, hear me out now, you have a tank CC Hecarim *before* he's in ult range of the carry, or, again *before* he's started his E charge. Seriously. A {{champion:57}} root (can be W or R), and you can 100-0 Hecarim before the CC runs out. His E has 250-450 range, depending on charge distance, so almost every ranged CC skill in the game vastly outranges it. Even Darius E is longer range and can interrupt Hec E depending on timing. If Hecarim is forced to ult just to get on the carry, then he has no room to charge for E, and loses most of his burst damage. Seriously, without the E, he does 150 /250/ 350 + 1.0AP (which he never builds) burst damage, and that's literally it. Followed up by a 215 (+ 70% bonus AD) Q once every 3 seconds. If you interrupt the E, same thing, there goes literally all of his burst damage and ability to kill anyone who wasn't already <30% HP. If you don't have 500 HP (since even base armor and MR will reduce his no E "burst" to under 450 damage) maybe don't wander into fights? Finally, you're just spouting outright lies. His ult fear starts out at just a measly .5 seconds, and it increases based on how far away you are from him, so that if you are 1000 range away, and he just barely taps you with it, you'll be feared for a whole 1.5 seconds. You know what lasts longer than both, and costs literally 600g? {{item:2419}} {{item:2420}} {{item:2423}} You can also get a {{item:3026}}, {{item:3053}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3072}} {{item:3812}} {{item:3814}} {{item:3157}} to survive, or have your tank/support pick up either or both of {{item:3109}}/{{item:3190}} Additionally, the CC and damage are stopped by spell shields, you can QSS the fear, he cannot use either E nor R if grounded, rooted, knocked up, stunned, knocked back, suppressed, and even using a slow while he's using E will lower the distance he can charge ***AND*** will vastly lower the damage dealt as well. Finally, Braum can block the damage of Hec's R with his shield, and Yasuo can windwall the spectral riders entirely. Just because you want to exaggerate, lie, ignore mechanics, items, etc and pretend that there aren't clear and obvious counters, ways to avoid the ability, and ways to easily survive it doesn't mean that the champion needs to be changed. It really just means that you should get good.
: Is Hecarim getting nerfed any time soon?
Not anywhere near as tanky as Rammus, and one shotting the squishiest class of characters in the game, who by rights should be balanced around requiring peel from their teammates should be the norm in a hyper-burst META like we've been in for, oh, 2-3 years now.
: It's so horribly designed it thresholds not even on %HP, but FLAT HP, which also for some reason scales on 3 separate stats; level, bonus AD, and lethality, so it means that it scales into late and gets stronger when Pyke stacks typical AD assassin items. Good luck being executed at half HP. Better yet, it ignores shield. If your HP checks the threshold test. Kiss goodbye and no amount of shield will save you because reasons. And it resets! The show never ends! What's next? And it duplicates kill gold, too! So Pyke can't even run into the gold-sink problem that high kill threat champs are fundamentally balanced by, where they can sit on too much gold they don't even use leading to a starved and lost team, since he basically just duplicates kill gold for his team. Isn't that just lovely... ... And absolutely appalling?
Don't forget, he has both the highest base HP and highest base armor (130 mother fucking armor, btw, ***15 fucking more armor than the next closest, BRAUM who, despite being THE warden, who only uses a massive, unbreakable shield as a weapon, only gets 115***) in the entire game, as a hyper mobile assassin, with free massive regen, invisibility, AoE hard CC, and AoE resetting nukes/executes that duplicate gold and now give him more gold for an assist than the bloke who actually lands the kill.
: Reduce their dmg, a huge ammount they shouldnt be able to 1v1 anyone
Why the fuck should tanks never be able to 1 vs 1 anyone ever? That's not how you ever balance anything. If anything, a Marksman without peel should not be able to 1 vs 1 anything-- not the fucking tanks. They should slowly burn down anyone dumb enough not to simply get away from them while they do the least DPS of any class in the game, with usually only one or fewer mobility tool(s).
: Thats also on Evelynn because for some reason she has a max health dmg ability where the max health dmg scales up to 40% with her ap as an assassin. A tank busting assassin is the most stupid design i ever seen
Honestly all the rampant massively high %HP, and % missing HP damage in the game needs to fucking go. Stoneplate actually makes you take MORE damage, NOT LESS if the people hitting you have %HP damage, completely invalidating the entire fucking point of the item; not to mention without the active (90 second cooldown btw) its utterly useless against all the true damage everyone and their brother has.
GigglesO (NA)
: Warmogs lost what, 400?
Depends which time frame you're talking, when it used to require stacks it granted a max of 1,350 HP, and the current one gives 800, so -550 HP from its original incarnation.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: before
They get under 50% efficiency with {{item:3036}} or {{item:3135}} factored in; not to mention they usually only help against one damage type or the other.
Pxerkza (EUNE)
: people just got better at diving turrets were never as strong as they are now including when the turrets gave shields and had lasers
You clearly have no fucking clue what you're talking about at fucking all. Remember laser turrets? Turrets that gave shields? Remember when virtually no AA modifiers did extra damage to turrets? When the AP on hit against turrets was literally ***300% motherfucking percent lower?*** Remember when they had ***MUCH*** higher resistance values, that also took less time to scale, and even started scaling from minute 1? Remember when nexus turrets and inhibitor turrets could regen to full health, instead of only to the nearest third? Your comment is a fucking joke.
: > [{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KgyviZTm,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2019-07-09T19:17:26.152+0000) > > imagine being so delusional that you can say it with a straight face, pyke got much more severe nerfs in his short lifespan than any enchanter support, but whatever, TWO CHAMPIONS being able to counter shields is suddenly a end of the game` Have you seen his buffs in 1.14? TWO CUTS FOR AN ASSIST ULT
plus increased the scaling by an utterly massive 220%
: Thank you for your lack of civilized discussion and lack of williness to debate the topic at hand. It really makes my job easier whenever I need to call people who disagree with me willfully ignorant of facts since all I said was a fact, but I got insulted rather than someone trying to fact check me.
If you engage in bad faith, expect the same response, or a response telling you that you and your posts are not welcome.
: Tanks are the most busted role right now, in comp its 4 tanks and 1 adc, they SOMETIME take lux
This is so far from true it gave me a good laugh.
: There has been a bunch of statistics revolving around armor pen of when it becomes an optimal solution vs armor. Typically talking a bout Last Whisper items. Generally around 180 armor then it's worth considering. But once you find out you don't really need to basic attack the tank then there is zero reason to buy armor pen. Because you should always be prioritizing armorless champs.
I have done the maths in every thread this has come up in, you are VASTLY overestimating how much armor is required. In fact, it s cost effective at 88 armor. that's it. 46% of all champions have more base armor than that. Literally every single champion with so much as a {{item:3047}} has ***MORE*** than that much armor. I can copy and paste the maths if you would like, or you can find an entire thread on it here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/6Vrse1uE-the-maths-behind-armor-penetration-and-why-you-should-build-an-ldr-if-they-have-a-single-tank?comment=000000020000
Eedat (NA)
: Yeah all those challenger and pro players playing their role apparently just fucking suck. You know so much better than them.
https://www.probuilds.net/guide/show/KR/3740655985/_OdcWP-exHaMeKsQj8IDubP5pPHPMVxfJwqVqmkJOJJl9A Hmm. . . it's almost like pros actually build these items and you don't know what you're talking about.
Eedat (NA)
: Oh yeah. These challenger ADCs don't build it because they cant position correctly. Let me go tell Bang and Uzi that they're garbage and cant play their role real quick
Funny you should mention Bang https://www.probuilds.net/guide/show/NA/3087986751/30ZXTmTl5pBzIQeUKeuclF2bhSoDK4pb8uLEt-3aXuNJndTP Guess he totally hadn't built a LW and totally wasn't going to upgrade it, right?
: > {{champion:16}} (why the fuck does Soraka also have so much base armor?!?) I think this is because she's both a bot-lane champ and she hurts herself to heal others. She probably needs it to be viable since she rarely builds any and it's not like she can W herself and get 100 armor for a few seconds.
If this is legitimately the case, I think the answer is clearly to lower ADCs damage, and all in potentially in the bot lane, so that hyper carries have to actually scale, and not start dominating the enemy support at early levels, such that we don't need to give all the enchanters higher than juggernaut level base armor just to survive in their own lane
Eedat (NA)
: You completely ignored what I said > You are not listening to me. Just because a LW item is efficient to buy, that does NOT make it the_** best**_ choice. There is not enough armor stacking tanks to make it _**absolutely necessary**_. The game is filled with champs that will oneshot you as an ADC in under a second. > Alright, the LW item equates to '49+45 AD'. Fantastic. Doesnt mean anything when the Irelia jumps on you and you die in <1 second. Thats why they're forgoing the extra damage for: > * the shield and sustain of {{item:3080}} * the shield and speed of {{item:3046}} * the range and speed of {{item:3094}} * the QSS, MR, and sustain of {{item:3139}} > LW can be and is efficient all it wants. That still doesnt make it the _**best**_ option. First and foremost you need to not die. Yes, people are actually (get ready for this) **_giving up some raw damage_** for a chance to not get instagibbed in <1 second. Just because its more raw damage ***does not mean its the best option***. This is why **_Challenger players don't build it_**. You want to see more LW items? Won't happen until tanks are buffed back up
The 49+45 AD is against a 100 armor target. If you actually bothered to read this thread, even support tanks are easily able to get 200-300 armor. Additionally, all it takes for a target to get 100 armor is . . . well, if they are an enchanter, tank, or juggernaut, literally just levels. If they are any other class, a {{item:1029}} or {{item:3047}} gets them there. Any further investment will simply skyrocket the value and increased damage amplification from {{item:3036}}. Against a 200 armor target, its essentially 86 + 45 AD = 131-- and again, that's the calculation assuming 1 AS, and only 200 AD. By a full build, or with Lethal Tempo proced, against a 200 armor target, it actually grants 276.5 + 45 AD = 316.5 AD (almost doubling their effective damage against the target. I'm not joking, it will literally increase their DPS by a lil' over 90%) Then, if they are a full build tank, and have 300 armor instead, oh fucking boy. . . .
Eedat (NA)
: compares melee assassin who cant build hp to ranged mage :thinking:
Compares assassin with 30% more base survivability than the next tankiest champion, an actual fucking tank. Yeah, no there is no fucking defense for Pyke having both several hundred more HP than the next closets champion, and 15 more armor than the next closest champion. He is a massive outlier in both cases, while also being one of the absolute safetest champions in the entire game. Even statistically he dies far less than other comparable classes, in no small part due to the extra 500 to a fucking 1000 extra pEHP he has over them passively from base stats alone.
: yes void staff is better because mage items are better than AD items plus one of them is massive pen for a burst class, which means a lot more
Rioter Comments
Eedat (NA)
: Uhhhhh hell no lmao. Just because it barely breaks even on champs base armor doesn't mean there aren't better choices. Why would you build a LW item when you could build mercurial which is gonna do about as much damage as having the LW item and have qss? Or a BT which is going to give you a ton of sustain and a shield? Or GA so you don't get instagibbed? Buying LW items against teams that are building barely any armor is garbage > (why the unholy fuck does Pyke, an AD assassin of all fucking champions have the highest base armor in the whole fucking game?!? Does this piece of shit really need 130 fucking base armor? That's 15 fucking more armor than Braum, and the single largest gap in base stats between the highest and the penultimate of any base stat period) Because he can't build health?
He's got the highest base health in the game to off set that aready, and he actually 100% can build health, he just converts it gold efficiently into AD instead, a stat he can use and scales with much harder. By base stats he has over 30% tankiness than the average for the tank class, as an assassin with a massive free heal, a stealth, two dashes, and an AoE stun. He sure as fuck doesn't need all that. Secondly, no you aren't getting how much extra damage that LDR is doing. Even at 100 armor, which is less than the base armor for a good chunk of those champions, its increasing all the damage you deal to that target by over 20%, plus it gives 45 raw AD which is no small amount. If you're an ADC with 200 AD, that's the equivalent to adding an additional 49 extra AD, on top of its 45 AD, so it functionally becomes a 94 AD item, for under 3k gold. That's against a non-armor building target, with no extra armor from runes, or their kit, and just 100 base armor. Against that Pyke, for example, it would be the equivalent of 105 AD, which is worth 3,150 gold, or over 115% gold efficiency. That's utterly massive for being a target that by rights, it should be ***cost ineffective against, not 15% more than cost effective*** Take a 200 armor target, and its over a 35% damage amp. It's literally better to build a LW as your third item than a second zeal if you opponent has over 110 armor.
Eedat (NA)
: Because armor stacking tanks aren't a thing right now. At most you have a bruiser with tabi, 1 armor item, and a ton of HP to deal with maybe a mage with zhonyas or Ez with IBG
A mage with zonhyas, an Ez with IBG, or literally any of: {{champion:82}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:203}} {{champion:26}} {{champion:518}} {{champion:34}} (especially if Eggnivia) {{champion:9}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:91}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:112}} {{champion:104}} {{champion:117}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:131}} {{champion:154}} (look, our first tank!) {{champion:114}} {{champion:40}} (what the actual fuck, Janna has higher base armor than ZAC?!?) {{champion:85}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:62}} {{champion:141}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:79}} {{champion:27}} {{champion:28}} {{champion:16}} (why the fuck does Soraka also have so much base armor?!?) {{champion:421}} {{champion:267}} (okay RIOT wtf) {{champion:78}} (our second tank, who also gets passive %increased resistances) {{champion:31}} {{champion:32}} (Ayy, more tanks) {{champion:44}} (also gets %increased armor) {{champion:254}} {{champion:497}} (? Seriously, RIOT, why the fuck do enchanters have way too much armor?) {{champion:420}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:54}} (third highest %armor increased steroid in game, actually gets two of them) {{champion:77}} {{champion:432}} (okay what the actual fuck) {{champion:72}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:58}} (maybe renekton doesn't need higher base defensive stats than almost every actual tank . . .) {{champion:240}} {{champion:80}} (glad that shield does something other than stun and deflect the occasional projectile) {{champion:12}} {{champion:516}} {{champion:120}} {{champion:113}} (absolutely massive %increased armor steroid) {{champion:223}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:89}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:33}} (100% increased total armor steroid) {{champion:53}} {{champion:201}} (also gets a %resistance steroid) {{champion:555}} (why the unholy fuck does Pyke, an AD assassin of all fucking champions have the highest base armor in the whole fucking game?!? Does this piece of shit really need 130 fucking base armor? That's 15 fucking more armor than Braum, and the single largest gap in base stats between the highest and the penultimate of any base stat period) Which amounts to over half the roster. From their base armor a-fucking-lone, have more than enough armor for LDR to be beyond cost effective. Also, for over 75% of these, its passive alone provides over 25% increased damage against them, on top of 45 raw AD. Also, so much as a ninja tabi on any champion makes LDR beyond efficient.
: As much as I'd love to cry "It's because my tanky bois are garbage and all ADCs are OP", I think there's a few things to consider. 1. Tanks just aren't particularly meta atm. In the top lane most tanks are sub 4% pick rate. Carries are a lot more common. The most popular tank jungle, Sej, loses a lot of her resistances after being damaged until she hits a 3rd - 4th item (normally rushes cinderhulk into Warmog). I also don't see them buying Last Whisper to deal with a Braum or Suppautilus. 2. Bruisers are more common, but tend to build more health than Armour. 3. Black Cleaver and Press the Attack are pretty common to see on your team in some capacity. 4. Guinsoo's Rageblade provides a watered down version of Last whisper, thus it can't stack as it shares the same name. In short, I'd be more worried if it was a 2-3 tank meta. As things stand at the moment however, there's not much reason to buy a last whisper due to the champions that are seeing the most play.
The optimal ADC build would have a zeal item, IE, then LDR, if they're main purpose is optimizing damage. The second zeal item actually increases their average DPS by a lesser amount than an LDR, while also costing as much or more to purchase; unless they are only targeting other ADCs, or mages without so much as a {{item:3191}} or {{item:3157}} or {{item:3047}}, at which point the LDR again becomes a higher damage amp. At base armor, level 1 for most champions, (I used 33 armor for the calculation) LDR's passive still will increase damage dealt by 10% + 45 raw AD, which scales with AS/crit chance/crit damage. at 100 armor, its over 20% increased damage, almost to 25%, and then by 200 armor, you get basically 35% increased damage, before factoring in the extra damage from the raw AD.
: Because armor pen is bough last and as games ends fast in challenger you never reach full build. Also most of the ad fighters buy black cleaver so this is enough armor penetration for the team in early game/mid game.
Armor pen is most effective as the third offensive item. In prior League game states, LW was the go to 2nd or 3rd item that was core in every single ADC's build. the current incarnation of LW is actually the second strongest version to have ever existed, with identical stats to its strongest incarnation, except for a slight increase in cost; and yet, it is still cost effective against a measly 88 armor, which by base stats, every single tank, juggernaut, and even most divers get with absolutely zero armor items, runes, steroids or other buffs. The optimal ADC build would have a zeal item, IE, then LDR, if they're main purpose is optimizing damage. The second zeal item actually increases their average DPS by a lesser amount than an LDR, while also costing as much or more to purchase; unless they are only targeting other ADCs, or mages without so much as a {{item:3191}} or {{item:3157}} or {{item:3047}}, at which point the LDR again becomes a higher damage amp. At base armor, level 1 for most champions, (I used 33 armor for the calculation) LDR's passive still will increase damage dealt by 10% + 45 raw AD, which scales with AS/crit chance/crit damage. at 100 armor, its over 20% increased damage, almost to 25%, and then by 200 armor, you get basically 35% increased damage, before factoring in the extra damage from the raw AD.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=PaG VentusKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MAgU5oOj,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2019-07-08T19:25:20.924+0000) > > I had 200 armor on Mordekaiser and got oneshot by kai sa from 3000 hp and a 1000 health shield. KaiSa went full crit btw. Armor is so fcking pathetic that you dont even need armor pen to beat tankyness in lategame. I doubt that.
Not one shot, maybe, but a three item Kaisa can deal over 2k DPS premitigation. If they had 4-5 items, they could burn through those stats (and assuming 125 MR, note that Kaisa does a metric fuckton of free magic damage while building full AS/AD/crit) in under 2 seconds.
: > [{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MAgU5oOj,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-07-08T16:19:19.659+0000) > > I still have Vietnam flashbacks where the enemy mages who have voidstaff get VASTLY out damaged by the adc despite me having {{item:3047}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3110}} and only {{item:3065}} as my mr item. > > While the mages had {{item:3135}} > > And the adc ({{champion:18}}) didn't have lord dominiks...not even full crit yet.. (all of her damage still came from basic attacking) > > > > No, im not joking....I know mages arnt supposed to do a lot to tanks but this is best case scenario for them to hurt me more than the adc and it disgusts me that none of these factors matter. Void staff is around 20 times better than the LW items, and so is the mage itemization for the most part. So idk what you're talking about, tanks get destroyed by mages with void staff much harder than by bruisers with conqueror or adcs (and adcs are supposed to kill tanks).
40% magic pen, with 70 AP is somehow 20x more impactful than 35% armor pen with 45AD (equivalent to between 75 AP, btw), or 25% armor pen, 40% reduced healing, regen, lifesteal, spellvamp, and omnivamp, and 45 AD (equivalent to between 75-80AP, btw)? In what fucking world? From the gold efficiency alone, we get a void staff that is 57.45% gold efficient before its passive, which is worth 72g, per 10 MR of the target, breaking even against targets with over 90 magic resist. A number that requires at least one MR item purchase to obtain for every champion in the game. Even against a 300MR, magic resist stacking tank, its only worth an extra 864g, and will remove 120 MR. For LDR we have more gold worth of AD, but a slightly higher cost making the item a similar 57% efficacy without its passive, but wait, people tend to have MUCH higher armor values, and armor costs 11.11% more per point of it than magic resist, making armor pen already 1/9th more cost effective per point than MR. LDR's passive is worth 70 gold per 10 armor, even at 35% armor pen (1/8th less pen, but each point penetrated is worth 1/9th more) and as a result, LDR is cost effective against targets with only 88 armor a stat that EVERY tank, and juggernaut gets beyond purely from their base stats alone Do you see the fucking problem? A % armor pen item is already cost effective EVEN IF YOUR TARGETS GET NO ADDITIONAL ARMOR FROM ANY-FUCKING-WHERE, BE IT RUNES, ITEMS, THEIR ABILITIES, OR ALLIES BUFFS The same CANNOT BE SAID FOR ANY OTHER PEN ITEMS IN THE ENTIRE GAME Against a lategame armor stacking tank, who has between 400-450 armor, LDR removes an astounding 140-157.5 armor, worth a total of 2,800-3150g, WHICH IS AS MUCH OR MORE THAN THE COST OF THE ENTIRE FUCKING ITEM BUT WAIT! Champions like Malphite and Rammus, actually have %increased armor steroids, and I have seen a Rammus in DBC legitimately get between 800-900 armor at full build (DBC increases armor by 100%, so 400-450 armor = 800-900) at which point that poor son of a bitch is losing between ***5,600-6300 MOTHERFUCKING GOLD WORTH OF ARMOR, WHICH IS WELL OVER FUCKING DOUBLE THE COST OF LDR TO BEGIN WITH, BEFORE FACTORING IN THE EXTRA 45 FUCKING RAW AD IT GIVES, WORTH AN ADDITIONAL OVER 1,500G. NAME TO ME ONE FUCKING OTHER ITEM THAT CAN BE WORTH 7,900G BY ITS SELF*** And here, you have the utter gall to lie straight to everyone's face about a topic you clearly know NOTHING AT FUCKING ALL ABOUT when there is easily accessible information available, where other people such as myself have already done all the maths for you.
: Kat's an assassin, so I wouldnt really put her there.
Yes, but she's a caster assassin, who was League's poster child for APC for literally 6+ years, before Ahri eventually supplanted her.
Theorex (NA)
: Again, I said lets drop Azir, Ryze, and Cass. Because those three mages are DPS. My nature they are going to do consistent damage. They are the mages that are suppose to function like a ADC. Use someone like Diana, Syndra, Ahri, Lux. Also. If mundo is going against a Cass. He know to itemize Adaptive Helm.
Pro tip, mages who should be focusing tanks and juggeranuts: {{champion:63}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:74}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:163}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:112}} {{champion:143}} Mages who should not be fighting 1 vs 1's against juggernauts, and who will and should lose handily for being dumb enough to try to: {{champion:103}} {{champion:1}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:134}} {{champion:99}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:76}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:115}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:142}}
Theorex (NA)
: You do realize a teamfight is over in 3.5 seconds if everyone is playing correctly.
No? Since when? You talking about only recently in the hyper damage and instaburst META? Maybe, but that doesn't mean this ever *should* be the case, or that its at all okay for this to be the case. Even then, you realize that's with only one character focusing a juggernaut or tank-- who are intended to be able to absorb focus fire from multiple targets, not die in a few seconds to literally one. If a Cass alone can kill anyone, regarldess of how tanky in less than 4 seconds, imagine how fast that tank will die with an ADC (you know, the actual tank busters who kill them ***EVEN FUCKING FASTER***) focusing them? 2.5 seconds? 3, MAYBE? So if the Cass and the ADC *both* focus the tank, we're down to what . . . a second? A second and a fucking half, or maybe two at best? Its fucking disgusting to see tanks dying in less than 2 seconds. Hell, they shouldn't die in under 5; and sure as fuck not in under 5 to a single other character, let alone multiple people per team per game being able to output such ridiculously overtuned damage.
: He worded it oddly, but hes not wrong. The reason why resists dont "reduce" healing on gunblade is because it also heals off of physical and magical at the same time and its % of the damage dealt, meaning if you deal enough damage resists wont mean much.
That's still factually wrong, as both resistances reduce the amount of healing from Omnivamp, as it heals based off of actual damage dealt, which is ***post***-mitigation damage, aka, after armor and magic resist have already reduced the incoming damage.
: Because If you dislike playing vs Tahm right now, then why do you advocate for tank meta to come back? I rather have Juggernaut as tank than a Tank meta where everybody is another version of Tahm.
How the fuck do you get that all tanks are like Tahm, when literally not a single other one is, and at no point, even during S5 Cinderhulk top hypertank META (which ironically favored Shyvana, who is a juggernaut over all actual tanks) aka the only tank META League has ever seen, were there tank lanebullies like Tahm. In fact, the juggernaut champions (weren't technically juggernauts yet, as the juggernaut patch 5.21 is what ended the hypertank meta anyway) were still the lane bullies in top lane, and the tanks won by being strong and useful in the lane (but not bullying or being oppressive) but then were simply vastly more useful in teamfights so they outscaled other picks (except for juggernauts). Tahm currently plays vastly more like a juggernaut than a tank anyway.
: What is the best level 1 champion in the game discluding runes
In a pure 1 vs 1, no champion can stand against {{champion:2}} chain resetting Undertow. Especially if the player does the double axe juggle. Bonus points for him having an up to 99% AS steroid passively, and solid base stats.
: Mundo with 160 MR would be reduced to only 63 after pen. 63 MR = 38% damage reduction. Where are you getting 45-48%? Additionally, Ryze, Azir, and Cass can easily do upwards of 1k DPS, especially single target and at full build; in fact, even Cass who does significant AoE and who CANNOT itemize over half of the flat pen she wants still does nearly 2k DPS. First, let's look at what Mundos actually build: In Plat+ here is his most common build: {{item:3047}} {{item:3068}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3083}} {{item:3193}} {{item:3143}}/{{item:3075}} Just to strongman your argument, we'll go with the Randuin's to increase his mEHP. This gives a level 18 Mundo: +425HP, +450+55MR, +800HP, +40MR, +400HP for a total of 95MR, and 2075 bonus HP. Mundo's base stats are: 2095HP, 53MR Adding those together, we have: ***4170 HP and 148 MR.*** ~ Let's use Cass as an example, as she will have the lowest numbers of the champions you have mentioned. Note, she can not get 18 flat pen from boots, and does build Morello and Void Staff both extremely commonly, in essentially every game that goes long enough in Plat+ according to League of Graph. Thus, against her, Mundo will have 73.8MR (for the other champions who buy sorc shoes, this would be further taken down to 55.8MR, or only 37% damage reduction) 73.8 MR provides ***44% damage reduction*** Thus, to kill Mundo by herself, Cass will need to deal ***~7,425 pre-mitigation magical damage.*** How long will it take her to do so? Less than five seconds, actually, but let's break it down. Well, we need to look at her build first, clearly. Her most common build is: {{item:3040}} {{item:3116}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3165}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3089}} Right off the bat the maths gets muddled as we have multiple %increased moddifers (three to be exact, which happen to all scale exponentially off each other) plus %HP damage. Luckily, we know the HP of our target, so we can actually calculate this. furthermore, the Rylais guarantees that Liandry's will always tick for its increased damage rate of 2.5% of Mundo's max HP (104.25 damage per second, in fact, this burn alone would kill Mundo in roughly 40 seconds; BUT WAIT, for every second in combat, Cass does 2% increased damage, so even the first tick is actually 106.335, the second tick is 108.42, the third tick is 110.5, the fourth tick is 112.6, and the fifth and later ticks are 114.675 damage Thus Liandry's alone deals 552.53 damage over the first 5 seconds, and 114.675 a second for every second afterwards; Liandry's alone kills Mundo in 36.5 seconds.) With that build her mana will be 2353.5 at level 18, which gives her an additional 70.6 AP. Her items give her: 50 + 90 + 75 + 70 + 70 + 120 + that 70.6 AP from Seraph's passive = 545.605 AP, before Rabbadon's Deathcap, which increases that by a further 40% to ***763.847 AP*** ~ Her Q deals 215 (+ 90% AP) over three seconds, thus with 763.847 AP, she will do 902.4623 damage over three seconds, or ***300.82076667 damage a second*** Her W deals 40 (+ 15% AP) damage a second, so with 763.847 AP, she will do ***154.57705 damage a second*** Her E deals 120 + .1 AP plus 90 + .6 AP if poisoned (hint, Mundo always will be) every three quarters of a second, for 744.6929 raw damage, or ***992.9238667 damage a second*** For a total of 1448.32168337 damage per second (not counting Liandry's amp, nor its burn) which alone seems ludicrously high, but wait, it gets better. Her ult deals 350 (+ 50% AP), and she'll only get it off once, so we'll include it as burst damage 5 seconds in when she's got her Liandry's full powered up. In which case, it will deal ***731.9235 base damage increased to 805.11585 with Liandry's.*** ~ Finally, to put this all together: (don't worry I'll add Liandry's ramping damage amp to the DPS calculations) Cass deals: 552.53 damage over the first 5 seconds from Linadry's burn 805.11585 damage from her ult These alone account for 1357.64585 of the 7425 pre-mitigation magical damage needed to kill Mundo. The first second of damage she will deal another 1477.2881170374 damage. the second second she will deal 1506.2545507048 damage The third second she will deal 1535.2209843722 damage the fourth second she will deal 1564.1874180396 damage The fifth second she will deal another 1593.153851707 damage ***Unfortunately, she quite comfortably overkills him, having done over 9,000 damage in 5 seconds (9033.750771861 damage to be exact).*** Remember that this Mundo, at level 18 and with a full build only has 7,425 mEHP. ***In fact, Cassiopeia can 100-0 this Mundo in under 4 seconds if she ults a lil' earlier than ideal.*** I won't bore you with even more math, but some of the champions mentioned can kill him 100-0 by themselves in under 3.5 seconds.
Thank you for taking the time to actually do the maths. People act like tanks and juggernauts are unfucking touchable, when really, a single carry can focus even the tankiest of tanks down in . . . literally less than 4 seconds? Jesus fucking christ. No wonder I see tanks legitimately dive in, then pop less than 2 seconds later when an ADC and APC focus 'em briefly.
: Lucian's scalings are shit lmao..
With his passive and IE, he hits for 2.25 + .9375 TOTAL AD, per auto attack, up to over 3 times a second. That's roughly 3.2 times his TOTAL attack damage, again, PER AUTO. With runes factored in, he will be hitting for over fucking ***TEN TIMES HIS TOTAL ATTACK DAMAGE EVERY SINGLE SECOND!*** With his most common build, he's got between 250 and over 300 AD. ***Thus, he's got over 2,500 to nearly 3,000 DPS***-- all of this without any of it being miss-able, dodgable, or requiring any resources, so there is no reason why he cannot keep dishing out several thousand damage EVERY SINGLE SECOND until he or his target is dead. If you want to call that "shit" scaling, you have no fucking clue how to math, or how any champion who is not an ADC scales at fucking all.
: Lucian scales harder than 95% of all champions, and only gets outscaled by a few other ADCs as they approach 5-6 item builds . . .
How is this downvoted? Literally the only champions who outscale Lucian are hyper carries and other ADCs . . .
: the introduction of lethality is one example, where for half a year, marksmen who could not use it were meme'd and those who could were pick/banned
> those who could were pick/banned Um. My point . . . exactly?
: Every top laner has been relegated to the jungle. Top is a juggernaut lane now. I'm extremely bitter about it, but I've finally resigned myself to playing champs I hate in the role I love.... I'm not Hashinshin... I can't keep a win-rate playing bruisers top when they wet noodle the meta picks at level 3 or 4...
You say its a juggernaut lane, but other than literally just Morde, what juggernauts see any level of high pick rates plus winrates? Riven is still the number 1 top laner, its utterly infested with ranged cancer and mages, so picks need to be able to handle those. We only see juggernauts with strong sustain, or decent ability to deal with ranged champs; but a good chunk of the roster is divers and skirmishers to better counter ranged champions, and get on them easier than juggernauts, who, with their non-existant range/mobility, struggle in such match ups, and tend to have negative winrates overall as a result. In fact, let's look at some statistics, shall we? By pick rate we have: {{champion:82}} (jug) {{champion:122}} (jug) Negative win rate at 49.13% {{champion:92}} (skirmisher) {{champion:266}} (diver) {{champion:58}} (diver) {{champion:24}} (diver) {{champion:39}} (skirmisher) {{champion:114}} (skirmisher) {{champion:420}} (jug, also note, take this with a massive grain of salt, she just got changes, which increased her play rate to over triple what it used to be, by next patch it will most likely fall back down again) Negative win rate at 49.39% {{champion:223}} (warden) 3 juggernauts in the top 10, but of those three, only one has a positive winrate, Morde with 52.23% in Plat+. There are also three each of Divers, and Skirmishers as well. If anything, top lane is one of the most balanced between all classes, as there are four distinct classes in the top 10 play rate (not something that can be said for any other role) and of those, three sub classes have equal representation.
: They just bring the bot lane experience to top. In my experience, the counters are so strong that whoever picks later wins bot heavily. That's why bot goes 10/0 or 0/10. Unless the enemy support is troll / autofilled.
top lane has always had far and away the strongest, most impactful coutner picks, to the point where the FB top laner basically loses their lane in champ select 95% of the time in higher Elo. Its a massive problem that higher Elo players have been talking about for literal years at this point. ADCs don't really have counter match ups. The counters in bot lane are supports counter each other vastly more than it is anything to do with Bot picks.
: yet you defended the same argument...
Your reading comprehension is downright terrible. I would seriously recommend going back to summer school. What I said was simply, and entirely: > "Because there is literally only a single juggernaut without sustain, and that is Shyvana who gets passive Armor and Magic resist instead, and is a jungler tuned to be reliant on jungle item sustain early on, before nearly always building a life steal item second or third." In response to, as I quote, this and only this exact line: > "most juggernauts have a form of sustain, as a fair comparison, why not show juggernauts that do not have sustain?" That's fucking it. Where are you seeing me phantom posting or defending arguments anywhere? I have not defended a single thing, I merely pointed out why your question is ridiculous and belays a lack of understanding of the juggernaut class. That's literally, and entirely it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Yets4240,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VcYayMF6,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-30T09:28:09.701+0000) > > Can you name a single actual time ADC was weaker than other classes as a whole? > > They have never been gutted into the dirt in the history of League of Legends. The entire crit rework? When Adc was litteraly unplayable.
You mean the time where there was still 2 in every single game ever played, even in Pro? that time that also lasted a total of two weeks, where again, they were still mandatory picks in bot lane for both teams? Try a-fucking-gain.
: > [{quoted}](name=Total Violation,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZOoq2HG,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2019-07-01T18:47:03.182+0000) > > I'm someone who plays Vel'Koz, Xerath and Zyra exclusively in the bot lane. I don't need to see one of the most fair and balanced classes get nerfed into mid lane unviablility, because "ooh they make bot lane too hard". > > You immobile ADC mains need to learn that mages are there to counter you. We are there to prevent you from scaling into the late game where you can deal the same amount of damage with 5/6 autoattacks as mages do with an entire combo. Don't complain about how "broken" mages are when you play the squishiest and most immobile class of all. I know you're used to having every game be served on a silver platter, but if you want your champion's counters to get nerfed for your convenience, you're a part of the problem with the comunity's mentality. "My class should be the strongest, everything else should be weak!" Except that's not what ppl are asking for. ppl just want some time before 1 skillshot takes about 40% of their hp. And they're not exactly hard to land as support, much easier than in mid lane tbh. > And another thing, stop with this facist mentality of "X champion can only go to Y lane, or else they're broken."! Stop thinking that Bot lane is for "traditional support only"! Reminder, mages are now more popular in bot lane, because mid lane is now fully infested with Akali/Irelia/Yasuo/ and other hyper mobile monsters who make playing immoblies a nightmare. But am i asking for every mobility spell to be removed, so i can win every game with Vel'Koz? No! then maybe stop with the "facist mentality" you're showing towards adc players? nah? i'm fine with mages bot, hell i've always prefered playing lux in the support role. But even i can see that it's some bullshit rn. also these boards lose their shit as soon as an adc shows it's face in any other lane/role.(see sub 50% winrate lucian mid, +/-44% winrate ez jungle, vayne top/jungle, quinn).
How could you, in all seriousness even bother typing this, let alone believe any of it?
: If a team gets both first blood and first turret, they automatically win the game.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=TKiJtzI3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-07-01T20:35:06.066+0000) > > If a team gets both first blood and first turret, they automatically win the game. Is that not what already happens? First mountain drake? Congrats, 70%+ chance of winning now. First tower? 60%+ chance of winning. Not sure the stats on fb, but given the other two and snowballing already, I wouldn't be surprised if it put them in the 55-65% range.
Kei143 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=EbZiPqnj,comment-id=00200000,timestamp=2019-06-28T17:53:45.009+0000) > > We're talking about possible tweaks to TFT item distribution. We do believe though that significant randomness, including variation in early power, is pretty valuable for the longeivity of the game. Examples of that in other genres are things like starting hand in Magic/Hearthstone, what you draw in poker, early loot in a Battle Royale etc. Playing from positions of strength or weakness result in a wider variety of experiences. > > Having said that there are some things that feel off to us at present that we're highly likely to change, likely (but not guaranteed) in 9.14. Those are: > > * Players should never finish the first 3 rounds without at least one item component dropping > * Players should never have 6 item components from PVE after the first 3 rounds > * Players should never get zero items from a later PVE round (Krugs onwards) if they kill everything
Even then, they are essentially saying, "we're totally fine with you getting absolutely ass blasted with no chance of winning from the first round if you get 1 component and someone else gets 5, that's totally fine, fair, and not at all a problem, but you getting 0, and them getting 6 is just a hair too much!"
: > [{quoted}](name=PB4UAME,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VcYayMF6,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-30T04:58:07.812+0000) > > LMAO, more like Bot lane is a position handed to ADCs on a silver platter, where anyone else who so much as steps foot there is banned for trolling, or if actually successful, nerfed out of viability within 2 patches, even when RIOT just two weeks before explicitly made announcements and plans to "open up bot lane to diversity" after they finally fucking acknowledged that 1 of 5 positions is held captive by 1 of 13 sub-classes of champions. Funny. Because any time an adc is played in any other role they get gutted into the dirt sooooooo
Can you name a single actual time ADC was weaker than other classes as a whole? They have never been gutted into the dirt in the history of League of Legends.
: so your only arguments are: he has more crowd control; no juggernaut has sustain just by existing (which you discarded yourself...twice) is he a tank? most tanks usually don't go for kill potential is he a fighter? he doesn't rely on auto attacks is he a mage? by most people's definitions, mages do not build tank items and are not durable is he a support? (I used him as one before they nerfed his sustain, which was before the rework) he has plenty of crowd control, durability and base damage...while acting as a threat to peel for his allies. Sounds like a support to me, but wait, that can't be right...he also scales into the late-game now let's list the traits of juggernauts: slow moving, little to no mobility, Very high often conditional damage, sustain, a very large threat that is best not handled alone in most cases, typically able to build for damage or durability or both sounds a lot like chogath...nowhere is it listed that a juggernaut can not have hard crowd control The fact that "specialist" even exists means that their category system is flawed. It was much better when he was classified as a "mage/tank" hybrid
Look who you replied to again.
: It's triggered by glacial unit basic-attacks only. Too many glacial units are slow at auto-attacking. Ranger synergy with two or four glacial is optimal.
Worst I've seen was 2 complete items and a component on a Tier 2 Vayne just after the first 3 minion rounds. Needless to say they won the game.
CurS1VE (NA)
: you are talking about tank ekko who was a abuser of tank items that were very strong. the tanks in the top lane were very strong as well and yes s6 was a TANK META flat out, it wasn't utility assassin lol like ekko was the only true tier 1 assassin in the top lane who could build tank and win just because of his kit and yea fizz was ok but he wasnt nearly as strong not even remotely. You look at Malphite, Maokai, Poppy, Sion these were the S tier picks along with Ekko, hell Shen was like A- tier. If you dont think S6 was tank meta then i mean i guess you should go in your time machine and look again. S7 was tank meta until like 2-3 months before end of season when they buffed Ardent to the point of busted all to shit point and yea tanks were still kings in the top lane and jungle, but Ardent shifted it from Tank meta to a ADC meta based on the Support rushing Ardent so the ADC could hit power spikes insanely quick.
Man, I feel bad PB wasted his time trying to talk to you. You either didn't play back then (or certainly didn't play top lane) don't remember, or you have no clue what makes a META. Just so you're aware, the word META is actually an acronym for the Most Effective Tactic Available. Except for one point in S5, it has not been ideal to go tanks over other picks in more then 1-2 roles concurrently. At the same time, there have been numerous game states with an average of 4+ marksmen, or 5+ assassins PER GAME. Such times are known as ADC and Assassin metas respectively. The converse for tanks has only happened once. Tanks being strong =/= tank META. Tanks being literally better than all other picks or picked over all other champions in multiple roles in the average game state = tank META.
: > [{quoted}](name=Yets4240,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6c0L0ul0,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2019-06-29T01:28:26.432+0000) > > Well, Voli is a juggernaut, so that makes sense. Tahm really is a tank at heart, he's just overtuned atm. Eh, not really. He has only 2 forms of CC and both are single-target. Hardly the makings of a good tank. Actually, considering the fact Voli's E is AoE Tahm has _less_ CC than him.
Tahm is a warden because of the peel he provides his team, and the amazing utility of both his W and his R for himself and for allies.
: Don't waste your time, Pika Fox is a known troll on these boards.
Basically down vote every single post you ever see of his on sight, rather than read it and you'll save yourself some time, braincells, and you would have downvoted the shit he posts anyway, so you can leave in good consciousness too.
: i've seen volis build the second build so?
Okay, then they are poorly, or inefficiently itemizing as Voli, and likely got kited to shit accomplishing pretty much fuck all, but that still doesn't magically and mystically give Voli the tools of a tank, nor will he suddenly lose the trademarks of the juggernaut class. Except in niche scenarios, build has nothing to do with role. Certain roles due to having similar skills, limitations, needs, etc will tend to build similarly, but an ADC with the bottom build is still an ADC. A mage with that build is still a mage. An assassin with that build is still an assassin. They'll do a lot less damage and be quite a bit poorer at their job, but they don't spontaneously transcend classes because they built poorly.
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