: > [{quoted}](name=DerMangoJoghurt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBs8ZE2x,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-19T09:54:12.976+0000) > > One plating is worth 160 gold, one kill is worth 300. Getting 3 kills worth of gold is impossible just by breaking plates. For 2 kills he'd need to break 4 plates, which is virtually impossible to do within the time span of a regular roam. Usually you get 1-2 plates if your opponent leaves the lane. > > If you roam resulting in a kill and an assist, your team gained more gold than 2 platings are worth. When you get downvoted for MATH xd
If you take the tower, its 1,250 gold from the plating and tower alone, plus several hundred gold per minion wave. In top lane at least, you can take the tower in 1-2 pushes depending on champion and if your jungler helps you push, while taking 3-4 minion waves. The tower alone is worth 4.167 kills, 3-4 minion waves is worth another kill to kill and a half. In the best scenario, you get 5.667 kills worth of gold from two roams. That's certainly 2-3 kills worth of gold per roam, is it not?
Kai Guy (NA)
: Yea? Well im not on my phone or at work now so I can take a look as I was going of my memory. {{champion:9}} April 25 2009 Duration reduced to 1 / 1.75 / 2.5 / 3.25 / 4 seconds from 2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 / 4. May 23, 2009 Patch Terrify Fear duration modified to 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5 seconds from 1 / 1.75 / 2.5 / 3.25 / 4. {{champion:22}} Alpha Week 7 Now stuns the hit target for up to 5 seconds, and deals half damage and slows nearby targets by 50% for 3 / 4 / 5 seconds. V0.9.22.7 Enchanted Crystal Arrow Max stun duration reduced to 4.5 seconds from 5. Now applies slow to the primary target (for when the stun duration is low). Added a minimum stun duration of 1 second. V1.0.0.61 Max stun duration reduced to 3.5 seconds from 4.5. {{champion:33}} Only ever had a max of 3 seconds. So my memory aint that bad it seems, One of the two did have over 3.5 seconds on a point and click. Ashe R did have a 4 and 5 second stun. Couldn't remember which just that the chain CC from Ram or Fid was obnoxious and getting sniped by Ashe was often times death in lane.
Okay, so in release and non-alpha patches, they did not have those values. I started playing around the double release of Udyr and Poppy, so I guess those were before my time, my apologies.
Kai Guy (NA)
: Thought one of them had 3.5. Ashe r was what 4 or 5 second stun?
Nope, none of that is correct. They had 3 second long CCs, much like Morg has had her Q scale to 3 seconds (and still has it). The 3.5 second stun you're thinking of was an Ashe arrow that had traveled half the map or more. No CC has ever been longer than 3.5 seconds, and only Ashe has had such a CC.
Gofs (NA)
: Please no mobile league for 10th anniversary
Or anything the fuck to do with TFT.
rujitra (NA)
: She also has one of the lowest attack ranges of ADCs that exist, as well as needing to get three autos off to proc the passive ability, making her virtually unable to do anything without an initiate. Seriously, it's easy as fuck to play against a vayne. Just keep poking her out of lane because she can't do shit to stop you.
> [{quoted}](name=rujitra,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=zOWYijp8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-17T17:33:19.203+0000) > > She also has one of the lowest attack ranges of ADCs that exist, as well as needing to get three autos off to proc the passive ability, making her virtually unable to do anything without an initiate. > > Seriously, it's easy as fuck to play against a vayne. Just keep poking her out of lane because she can't do shit to stop you. She has the average range for ADCs at 550. She even has longer AA range then several other marksman, and has an AA reset + two AD steroids + two gap closers (one of which is always on, and gets tripled with her ult, the other gets down to a literal 1 second cooldown and provides one second of stealth when she ults).
: Personally i am expecting something on the level of classic rift where smite buffs still exist and the champions who were reworked return to how they were at that time, when it becomes hugely popular we can then demand it be made a permanent queue mode and abandon modern league completely.
> [{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=WpcLijvp,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2019-09-17T03:26:08.282+0000) > > Personally i am expecting something on the level of classic rift where smite buffs still exist and the champions who were reworked return to how they were at that time, when it becomes hugely popular we can then demand it be made a permanent queue mode and abandon modern league completely. If only.
: I don't notice it, it usually seems to instantly happen for me.
It has a buffer, and a travel time. If you are familiar with the animation, you have plenty of time to dash/blink/flash away, unless he's ulting from point blank range. It takes him almost a full second to travel the full length of his ult, including the buffer at the start.
: Pretty sure K6 was pick ban in pro play like a year or two ago?
He has been at various times, even as a solo laner when W evolve was meta. He's also been the #1 jungler in several different metas before.
Ahri Baka (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AE9EmpeK,comment-id=0004000000020000,timestamp=2019-09-16T18:45:35.263+0000) > > He's doing a LOT better than Vayne rn. > > > https://i.gyazo.com/a5ef21cabaaace83e9f12e50938c3ae6.png > > https://i.gyazo.com/880dce556f835be6934bca3cc1bcef01.png stats don't mean shit
: > [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AE9EmpeK,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-09-16T10:04:15.768+0000) > > Riot overbuffing champions? > > Who would of thought! > > > {{champion:51}} {{champion:202}} {{champion:245}} i also said ekko would be undisputedly S-tier after the buff on his W stun went through. i was called names for that one.
A hyper mobile, super safe assassin, with always on execute damage with an AoE hard CC with longer duration than any tank ultimate on a basic ability? That also grants a massive fuck-off shield? All this on the same ability? What could possibly go wrong?
: "I _believe_ I was lied to and therefore all Rioters lie and are not to be trusted, and anyone who believes them is a sheep who is not worth my time and is also not to be trusted." Basically what you just said. Stellari was on the skins team or worked closely with them before leaving Riot, and her last project was Little Devil Tristana. I trust her more when it comes to this than I would a Rioter that has nothing to do with skins.
No, if you have been on the boards long enough, or had better reading comprehension you would know that the person you are responding to has been ***LIED ABOUT*** by several RIOTers, not lied *to.*
Kkasawin (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NcyYFg5E,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-15T11:56:49.019+0000) > > Do you want me to list the other supports that can do that to? dude, just stop making everyone on the boards downvote you
Seriously, I have yet to see this dude say fucking ANYTHING on the boards that isn't A, entirely wrong, B, biased as all hell, and C, downvoted into utter oblivion.
: > [{quoted}](name=warhawk36,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=A3N519u1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-09-13T15:20:28.365+0000) > > I'm talking about removing the gold from the plates entirely. That way the games can be long again and the game is harder to close out allowing comebacks to be more possible. If plates give no gold, then what purpose do they serve? They don't make towers any tankier. And that's really what we need right now is towers that don't fall over like wet blankets.
> [{quoted}](name=L Psy Kongroo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=A3N519u1,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-09-13T16:05:57.802+0000) > > If plates give no gold, then what purpose do they serve? They don't make towers any tankier. And that's really what we need right now is towers that don't fall over like wet blankets. You don't really get how they work, do you? > Outer turrets have large stone shields called plates. Plates act as a sort of segment for the turret’s overall health. There are five plates, each with 1000 health, meaning that turrets have 5000 total health. When a champion destroys a plate he and any allies nearby get a gold reward, but the turret gets a bit of extra damage resistance, thus becoming slightly harder to destroy. Plates disappear at 14 minutes into the game and with them the extra damage resistance. > > Passive: Grants 0 / 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 bonus armor and magic resistance. > Passive - Bulwark: When a turret has its health reduced to 4000, 3000, 2000, 1000 health, and 0 health, it gets a stack of Bulwark for 20 seconds. Each stack grants 0 − 100 (based on nearby enemy champions) bonus armor and magic resistance, up to a maximum of 0 − 400 (based on nearby enemy champions) at 4 stacks. The value changes dynamically based on the number of nearby enemy champions.
: > [{quoted}](name=AlterMordred,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7odXPPoU,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2019-09-09T14:11:03.816+0000) > > Ok how am I supposed to reach her Ghost.
Which is hard countered by CC and slows, of which she has 2 massive AoE ones at her disposal, and frequently rushes Rylai's. . .
: When they nerf hourglass they can do something about this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence I'm just gonna leave this here.
: > [{quoted}](name=musixxal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sZm9ywvi,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-05T15:40:54.234+0000) > > give a fuck about that fam. > > LOOK HERE > > Ekko > [Changelist] > Parallel Convergence (W) > Mana cost lowered from 50/55/60/65/70 to 30/35/40/45/50 > Stun duration increased from 1.75 to 2.25 > > DO YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS? > this means ekko is now broken > utterly broken > this can't seriously be going live. This is gonna be abused for shielding.... damn. They should cancel the mana cost buff but keep the stun buffs because his stun is so easy to prevent
Why should a hyper mobile assassin have an *AoE HARD CC that lasts over 2 fucking seconds?* That's beyond the hard CC offered by any tank ult in the entire game. On a basic ability that's also a massive fucking shield that scales off of 150% AP ***AND provides a disgusting amount of free execute damage without a cooldown*** "Passive: Ekko's basic attacks deal 3% (+ 3% per 100 AP) of the target's missing health bonus magic damage to targets below 30% of their maximum health. The damage has a minimum threshold of 15" Someone as mobile, bursty, and disgustingly safe as Ekko doesn't need a 2.25 second AoE hard CC with as low as a 7.7 second cooldown. That's over a fucking third uptime on an AoE hard CC. On a basic fucking ability plus a massive semi-spamable shield and constant free execute damage. On a hyper mobile motherfucking assassin, who by all rights, should not have any hard CC whatsofuckingever, let alone one of the longest CCs in the entire game, and the longest duration AoE hard CC on a pittance of a cooldown for what it offers.
Vlada Cut (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Yets4240,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZhB1wXjf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-04T06:14:45.344+0000) > > Until it is finally reverted to the only useful state its ever been in (hint, 2k price tag, 30% incoming damage return before mitigation) its going to remain a noob trap item that is only ever worth upgrading from Bramble Vest as a sixth item. Seriously, it gets nothing from the upgrade. Cold Steel has anti synergy with thorns, and if you want CS, literally every other anti AA armor item is better. Frozen Heart applies it constantly in AoE and works even if they're targeting a teammate instead. Randuin's gives more pEHP, has an amazing anti AA/crit unique, and has huge utility in a massive AoE slow. Thornmail as it is is a fucking joke, and is easily out sustained from the free healing obtained by runes, let alone a fucking Doran's Blade or any actual sustain item. {{item:3143}} becomes a beast when you combine it with {{item:3047}}, because you'll be blocking 32% of AA damage if they are crits from ADC's. I always go for early Randutabi cheese when I'm against {{champion:23}} in lane, once you get those two items you can just watch him cry as he is rendered useless against you from that point of the game till it finishes. It's still useless against Yi tho, he's immune to coldsteel passive effect and it the item overall becomes even more useless if he goes on-hit instead of crit(same goes if kai'sa goes on-hit/AP build instead of crit).
They are not additive, but multiplicative. If you're taking a critical strike and have both items, it becomes 100%(.8)(.88) = 80%(.88) = 70.4% or a 29.6% reduction instead of 32%. There is then a 10% AS slow from CS. IF the auto in question is not a crit, you only get 12% reduction. If they bypass the AS slow, or its too little for them to be affected (as most AS reliant champions exceed the cap due to runes) then it may as well be ignored. You're investing 4k gold for no offense, less than 100 armor, and 400 HP with an AoE slow active. an investment of barely over 2.5k turns that armor into 55, negating 17.5% of the value of both purchases while giving them 45 more AD, and any ADC or auto attacker worth their salt will get a {{item:3036}} if they see you armor stacking. Additionally, this has nothing or very little to do with the utterly abysmal state of thornmail, except that both of these are far better options against auto attackers than thornmail is, and both, even stacked, are easily and cost efficiently countered and both items are rather subpar individually.
: >Cold Steel has anti synergy with thorns Now i'm not gonna claim thornmail is a strong item or anything but that's not anti-synergy. If you think that it's anti synergy, then you are most likely thinking that thornmail is supposed to be a semi-damage item with the damage return. however, that's a wrong way to look at it. The thorns passive is there to prevent the enemy from using lifesteal against you. Preventing life steal and reducing their attack speed is not anti-synergy. Even if it were supposed to deal lethal damage (which it's not, it's a stupidly overpowered concept), you would still prefer to have that attack speed reduction on it because you would still be taking damage from the enemy, even if they deal damage to themselves. The only champion that did suffer from the attack speed reduction is rammus and his taunt+thornmail combo was extremely overpowered and should never become a thing again. They need to make thornmail more viable but they do not need to change the thorns part at all. It's already doing its job.
No, its not doing its job at all. As someone was kind enough to detail below a single Blade of the Ruined King, in a worse situation than is even possible in game more than completely invalidates ALL of the return damage from TM, THROUGH the Grievous Wounds, AND makes the champion in question, a Nautilus, die over 34% faster: > Want some maths? Let's take a level 11 Jinx (highest winrate and second highest pickrate ADC, also has one of, if not the highest ratio of attack speed to attack damage, so thornmail will "counter" her harder than any other ADC) and give her just a BotRK, and ignore all of her runes, other items, etc. > > She'll have 86.8 base AD + 40 = 126.8, she'll also be almost exactly to 1.0 AS before factoring in her Q or her passive. With her Q passive up, she reaches 1.7425 attacks per second which I will round to 1.75/s just for ease of math. > > BotRK gives her 12% increased lifesteal. > > She will be targeting a level 11 Nautilus (highest winrate and highest pickrate tank atm, primarily played support, so no level advantage given to either champs) who has simple a thronmail, neglecting all runes and other items once again. > > Nautilus has 72 armor (71.9) at level 11, and Thornmail provides an additional 80 armor, bringing him to 152 armor, which I will slightly truncate to 150 for ease of math. > > Naut has 1331 base hp at 11, and gets 250 from TM bringing him to 1581 HP since I truncated armor, I will round this to 1600 HP for ease of math and to make up for the lost pEHP. > > A champion with 1600 hp with 150 armor takes (1+150/100)x1600 physical damage to kill, or 4,000 points of physical damage. Jinx deals 222 points of damage per second (so would kill in 18 seconds before BotRK's passive) plus she gets an additional 8% current HP per hit, or 1.75 times a second. She will also heal for 12% of this damage but since TM has GW, this is reduced to 7.2%. > > Thornmail will return 25 + 80(.1) damage a hit, or a measly 33 damage, or 57 damage a second [before MR, with just her base this becomes 23.1, and 39.9 respectively] Jinx will heal 16 health per attack + 7.2% (8%)Nautiluss' current HP. > > For the first hit, she will deal an additional 128 damage, and she will heal an additional 9 health from this damage. > > After the first auto, Naut has taken 350 points of physical damage, leaving him with 3650 pEHP remaining, and Jinx has taken a whole 5.6* damage, even through the GW and with the full return damage, omitting any extra healing she would certainly have from runes, Doran's blade, or other items. In fact, the inclusion of a Doran's Blade lowers the damage she's taken to a single point of damage. She will also 100-0 the Nautilus in less than a dozen seconds without any other source of damage. > > In essence, what has happened is that the BotRK deletes a third of Naut + TM's pEHP taking his surviability from a little over 18 seconds to less than 12. [...] I totally forgot to factor in Jinx's base MR. She would actually only take a fraction of that damage, about 70% of it, and so she takes 23.1 damage per hit instead of 33, meaning that even with just the BotRK alone, she actually takes -2 damage a hit, or heals for 2 health through the GW and the thorns with literally no other sustain or life steal. She will 100-0 him in 12 seconds, and heal for 42 health (over the 21 attacks made in 12 seconds) for doing so with just the BotRK. > > So yeah, BotRK completely invalidates Thornmail even in the best case scenarios for thorns vs physical attacks. >
Bultz (NA)
: Is thornmail ever going to actually have any fuckign affect against ranged adc?
Until it is finally reverted to the only useful state its ever been in (hint, 2k price tag, 30% incoming damage return before mitigation) its going to remain a noob trap item that is only ever worth upgrading from Bramble Vest as a sixth item. Seriously, it gets nothing from the upgrade. Cold Steel has anti synergy with thorns, and if you want CS, literally every other anti AA armor item is better. Frozen Heart applies it constantly in AoE and works even if they're targeting a teammate instead. Randuin's gives more pEHP, has an amazing anti AA/crit unique, and has huge utility in a massive AoE slow. Thornmail as it is is a fucking joke, and is easily out sustained from the free healing obtained by runes, let alone a fucking Doran's Blade or any actual sustain item.
: > [{quoted}](name=feintfiend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=chElNXHo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-20T00:02:50.202+0000) > > Top lane doesn't matter anymore, the better player no longer wins top. > > Top lane is decided off who picks second and who's jungler bothers to gank. > > I hate it when I get no ganks, enemy jg camps me, and every lane still loses. How the fuck does that happen?? Welcome to adc for the past 4 seasons?
Not even remotely close to true, but leave it to ADCs to always make every fucking thing even tangetialy related to the game all about them, and for them to whine evermore about how weak the most powerful singular subclass in the entire fucking game is. And woe is them to have an entire lane and position dedicated solely and exclusively to their use, with a slave to funnel gold and keep their dumb asses safe for all of laning and more. Most be so very hard to A-click and remember to move backwards occasionally, while bursting everything down with unmissable ranged damage several times a second.
Bugog (NA)
: I've only heard about it in passing, but something about his spin to win getting more hits with attack speed. And it applies on hit abilities. So {{item:3153}} But like I said, I only heard about it in passing, he may be a {{item:3031}} user by now.
W gets orbitally nuked, E loses base damage and AD ratio, but gets to proc 50% damage on hits, he loses all his % max hp true damage, ult base damage nerfed at all ranks, ult scaling damage heavily nerfed at all ranks (10 percentile less % missing HP damage when maxed), and even his passive will heal less now. Basically every single skill gets nerfed, villain removed, but his E has a new cheese mechanic to force him to build glass cannon to make up for the massive sweeping nerfs everywhere else, won't ever be as tanky, and gets showhorned into conqueror abuse to stay viable. In short, I hope they abandon just about every single part of it and start entirely over.
: > [{quoted}](name=Yets4240,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aWsUAeoN,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-08-15T20:47:23.783+0000) > > I'd rather see a viable tank option that actuall provides meaningful, in combat regen to once again be a thing. You cannot re-add FoN without FoN's passive, and the increased movement speed passive. Those two things, more than literally anything else, are what made that item. This, while an alright idea, isn't even close to FoN, and I would greatly prefer the actual FoN than shoehorning DD's unique into it because you think the passive sounds cool. Well unfortunately I can't change the thread title now. Having said that, I feel like you'd be better off making a portion of the regen on Warmog's a constant heal _(increasing to its full value out of combat)_ than trying to balance it and old FoN co-existing. Besides, Warmog's actually DID have FoN's passive for a while after it got removed. Also, why did old FoN even give movement speed? None of its components ever gave MS, and it just seems like it got thrown on for no reason.
The reason was because other classes items had movement speed built in. Lich Bane used to be core and it gave +7% ms iirc, and for a while one to two other high AP items had a small splash of movement speed, not to mention the Zeal in both TriForce and PD/Shiv gave bruisers and ADCs movement speed. Then there have always been movement passives on various support components and items, so even they had some as well. FoN was the tank's equivalent of this, while also providing constant regen, and a side of the highest MR of any single item-- but it didn't have health, yet its passive scaled off maximum health. The thing was inefficient to rush, but, it provided a smattering of stats to round out tank builds for mid game teamfights, where they would need the ms to keep up with the itemization of other classes, the regen based off their main stat to keep them alive and give them their version of spellvamp/lifesteal, and finally, it gave a chunk of MR to help mitigate the ranged poke and AoE magic damage that dominated team fights of that era.
: A re-purposed Force of Nature as another tank MR option?
I'd rather see a viable tank option that actually provides meaningful, in combat regen to once again be a thing. You cannot re-add FoN without FoN's passive, and the increased movement speed passive. Those two things, more than literally anything else, are what made that item. This, while an alright idea, isn't even close to FoN, and I would greatly prefer the actual FoN than shoehorning DD's unique into it because you think the passive sounds cool.
CLG ear (NA)
: i forget what his ult is actually called
> [{quoted}](name=CLG ear,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Vc0uqaML,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-08-14T19:35:19.756+0000) > > i forget what his ult is actually called Grand Skyfall iirc.
: Most supports have an ability that can make him obsolete too. If Rengar jumps on you and Lulu sees Rengar is in ult and doesn't press her R button when he jumps, The Lulu deserves to lose, and you're on her team, feelsbad but that's the game
So one champions passive necessitates that another champion uses their quite impactful AoE ult on a single target, or else they and their team deserves to lose the game (and the target my still die instantly before the ult finishes its cast time, let alone actually goes off) and you're acting like this scenario isn't the exact problem being discussed here?
Kovorix (EUW)
: And what is he then? A mage?
RIOT classifies him as a Diver, since they gave him the strongest defensive ability in the entire game (which would make no sense on an assassin) and since he doesn't have an instant get out of jail free card like every other assassin.
: > [{quoted}](name=Nyarlathοtep,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lo2HX55q,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2019-08-11T21:30:42.558+0000) > > And yet i still see small difference. So... somehow a component nullifying two completed items worth of lethality is just a "small difference" ok dude
Because the lethality it negates is worth less than the item costs, while not doing fucking anything against the 100 AD those items also give, the out of combat movement speed, and the incredibly powerful uniques they offer. the lethality is the icing on those cakes, without it, you still have two massive cakes to contend with. they're just that much more bullshit when they also pen your base armor into nothing too.
: This has bugged me for a while. I think it's a design flaw that this item is good on ADCs and assassin's. Gives too much HPs to champs that should be made of glass.
Its not designed for either of them, and both are abusers, instead of intended users of the item, and have already gotten multiple portions of the item nerfed due to their abuse. Its designed and intended for champs like {{champion:59}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:83}} not abuse cases like {{champion:236}} {{champion:238}} {{champion:91}}
: > [{quoted}](name=Yets4240,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=92L2jOzQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-08T22:00:28.954+0000) > > From your stats alone you have 8 ADCs with beyond 50% winrates at 25 minutes, yet claim only 2 have the tools necessary? How do you manage to truncate off literally three quarters of the relevant champions who also meet that same criteria when you have the data literally in front of you? > > Also, do recall, ADCs are supposed to be late game hypercarries, not dominating mid game, and then also being late game hypercarries. If anything, the data here suggests Jinx in especial, but likely also Sivir, Draven and Ashe need nerfs, and Kalista could use some buffs for non-coordinated play. That is outdated. Marksmen are not an exclusive late game class anymore.
Hmm, as far as I recall, the AD+Crit+crit damage+AS formula has not changed, and you can still absolutely shred any armor purchased with a simple LDR. A non ADC cannot ever hope to out damage {{item:3031}} {{item:3087}} {{item:3153}} {{item:3036}} , let alone a full build ADC. As long as that remains the case, why should they be allowed to be gods in the midgame as well? {{sticker:sg-lux-2}}
: ADC 2k19 - Why does it feel bad to play an adc?
From your stats alone you have 8 ADCs with beyond 50% winrates at 25 minutes, yet claim only 2 have the tools necessary? How do you manage to truncate off literally three quarters of the relevant champions who also meet that same criteria when you have the data literally in front of you? Also, do recall, ADCs are supposed to be late game hypercarries, not dominating mid game, and then also being late game hypercarries. If anything, the data here suggests Jinx in especial, but likely also Sivir, Draven and Ashe need nerfs, and Kalista could use some buffs for non-coordinated play.
: Think we could buff Frozen Heart and Glacial Shroud? Give some better stats for a small price-up?
I long for the old tank items, where we had multiple AoE auras and AoE debuffs that we would stack, and various people on a team would be fighting to purchase the Bulwark, or the Frozen Heart for the team, because the auras these items offered were so powerful and useful. Tanks need tools other than pure damage or CC to contribute to fights. Revamping and reintroducing aura items and AoE debuffs (beyond simple slows) on their items would be a fantastic way to enable actually TANK playstyles, instead of turning them into glorified bruisers with less mobility, less sustain, a little less damage and simply more CC.
: What is less skilled, than hitting enemy with skillshots? Hitting enemy with targeting skills. Such as Annie Q, or old Zilean's Q, or most of current Pantheon's skills. The most skilled style would be skillshots with big mana cost or/and CD, and damage. But most poker champion's mana cost allows them to miss a lot. Even with just 20% hit rate Lux, Xerath, Brand, and Morgana can poke the shit out of any non-tank enemy.
If you can miss 80% of your skillshots and still are playing a forgiving enough champion to still win and poke out other champions while staying entirely out of their interaction and retaliation range, how is literally any of that skillful in the slightest? In fact, it rewards mediocre play with huge rewards for the time when you actually finally manage to hit something after missing 4+ times in a row. If you miss 80% of your skillshots, that's not 'skill,' that's being terrible on your champion and having it be forgiving enough to still let you win and invigilate other champions anyway.
: Um... yes. Because that's the truth. It _has to be_ the tuth, in order for them to be viable at all, their stats need to be so much better that they can overcome the range difference by simply beating you down once they _are_ in range. And there's no mechanical difficulty involved with getting in range. It seems everyone who likes to defend champions who _by Riot's admission_ are designed to be raid-boss level in stats, doesn't understand a key point. Just because they're hard to win with against enemies who've chosen the route of having to actually learn a more difficult champion in exchange for more versatility, doesn't mean they're hard to _play_. Just like old Taric. Not hard to click on an enemy for a dazzle, walk in range, R, W a bunch, and maybe click on an ally. And in exchange for that simplicity, he wasn't very versatile. That's how character design goes.
> And there's no mechanical difficulty involved with getting in range. This is straight up bullshit, and 100% false. There is pathing, flanking, avoiding skillshots, avoiding ground targeted AoEs, avoiding CC, knowing when to go in, knowing who to target, when you can target them and actually reach them, using defensive cooldowns at the right time to mitigate in coming damage, baiting out disengage cooldowns of the target, sticking to the target after getting in melee so you do more than a single hit of damage, predicting where they will go when they use they mobility tools to try to escape, throwing out your own CC if you have it, etc etc etc. The hardest part of playing immobile melees is actually getting in range. You also seem to utterly ignore the fact that range itself ***IS A STAT*** If immobile melees fail their skill check (e.g. managing to actually get in range, and furthermore ***stay in range***) then they get stat checked into oblivion by range.
: I'm fully prepared for the eventual Nasus rework. I love playing him, but at the same time, I do recognize just how unhealthy his design is at its core. It's mostly people just not willing to accept they've been abusing a skilless statcheck the entire time.
I love how people always claim that immobile melees are the "skilless statchecks" in a hyper damage/burst META dominated by hypermobile and ranged champions, most of whom also have ranged hard CC. I find it most ironic tbph.
: Complaint about Riots Balance Attitude
When you have a few (less than 20, usually less than 10) champions who break the game and are functionally unbalancable because, quite simply, they are massively and obscenely OVERLOADED and can do fifty million different things, have no functional weakness, and have skills and other effects that completely negate any intended weakness in other parts of their kit, what do you think should be done, other than removing some of the completely unnecessary features that they have, to allow dozens of other champions the ability to once again compete? Compare the aforementioned champions to your Garen example. Before their kits were trimmed there is an interesting commonality between all of them. Unless they themselves severely and massively fucked up, the Garen in question cannot do anything to them, and will be perma kited with literally no response available from him, other than maybe trying to run away. In fact, immobile melees in general could not touch any of them, and have next to no agency against such champions even now, unless someone lands a ranged hard CC ability on them, despite every one of them having oodles of ranged and mobility tools to make landing such a CC much more difficult for the immobile melees. When you have entire groups of champions from multiple different classes all but invalidated do to the overloaded, overtuned bullshit you're trying to defend, surely you can see that the problem actually lies with those few new and busted champions. and does not lie with the 40-50+ champions rendered moot by the powercreep present in these more recently released champions/reworks.
: Agree on the illaoi part but... Juggernauts? Really?
The class with the most counterplay, and easily avoided mechanics, no target access, and extremely low range + no/very limited mobility + weak CC, BUT who punishes mistakes hard? Clearly way too OP, nerf all of them now even though they really aren't performing well at all and all but Darius have abysmal playrates.
Ornn (OCE)
: > [{quoted}](name=WoonStruck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8kXccI3H,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-08-04T07:47:09.245+0000) > > You think Garen's R is broken? > > Matchmaking system inside of ranked is a complete fucking joke too. a point and click ability that 1 shots you based of who has gottent the last 2 kills. yes very broken
You are aware its one of the few damage ultimates in the game that mathematically CANNOT one shot anything, right?
: This was never the case in any popular League season.... Average in 3-5 were 32-35 minutes. Right now is 33 minutes, due to the stronger initial turrets. Only in early 1 and 2, when the game was subscription and low popularity was it 45-60 minutes, and more because everything was broken than because it was a coherent game.
At the end of S5 the average game time was 35-45 minutes, and that was the shortest average game time League of Legends had ever seen up till that point. What are you talking about and where are you pulling these grossly inaccurate numbers from?
: > [{quoted}](name=PB4UAME,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEVLE2QX,comment-id=00000000000100000002000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-02T06:43:46.342+0000) > > Here's something to keep in mind. Void Staff needs over 100 MR to be efficient. No, it just needs both Sorc shoes and Morello (or Oblivion Orb), and about 350 AP to be extremely useful. Oh and CDR for spell rotations. What do mages get in such ease of access? All of the above with not having to deal with mana resourcing for shit anymore. % pen got changed to add base MR to the equation, so picking up void doesn't hurt anything, but instead allows you to counter any MR purchase that comes after it or before it. Theres no hard trade off now that itemization for mages has been pigonholed into a line that sees rarely any deviation.
Did you miss the part where someone needs ~100 MR for void staff to reach just 100% gold efficiency, and the highest base MR in the game, at level 18 is 54? It's NOT efficient on its own. Someone needs an entire MR item, AND to be level 18 (when average game time is between 20-25 minutes and most people don't even reach 16) just for it to break even on efficiency.
PB4UAME (NA)
: First off buddy, check my profile, check my match history. If you think I'm a mage player just because I disagree with you by using facts about the items themselves, you're a fucking lost cause. I don't think I've played a single mage in the last 2-3 years except for in ARAM. I'm a juggernaut and tank player, who has been on the receiving end of both damage types and all the different forms of penetration, and %HP damage through all the phases of this game all the way back to pre-season 1. At no point in ***the entire fucking history of League of Legends has magic pen EVER been better than armor pen, or harder to deal with as a tank, bruiser, or juggernaut.*** Currently, armor pen ***is the strongest it has literally EVER been, with the most options and sources of it than have ever existed.*** If you've followed the changes recently, tank items also have been dumpstered, and in particular the resist amounts and raw HP they give have been trash-canned. from a 5 item tank build, they have lost 1500 HP, 80 armor and 50 MR just from the nerfs to their items. We've also gone from literally only 1 % armor pen item, to having 3, and a % armor reduction one, and 4 flat armor pen items, instead of literally just {{item:3142}}. Additionally, flat pen used to apply first, now it applies last, after the % reduction destroys your armor for everyone, then the % pen removes all your fucking armor so that the scraps left over get utterly annihilated by lethality, and you take true damage. You can legitimately take a 200 armor bruiser, and get their armor to LITERALLY FUCKING 0. This simply was NOT possible previously. Magic pen cannot come anywhere close to that. With full magic pen, 200 MR becomes 87. You essentially still have 44% of it. Not ***literally fucking NOTHING*** Here's something to keep in mind. Void Staff needs over 100 MR to be efficient. LDR needs 88. EVERY TANK IN THE GAME HAS MORE ***BASE*** ARMOR THAN LDR'S BREAK EVEN POINT. THEY DON'T EVEN NEED TO BUILD ANY ARMOR WHATSOEVER AND ITS EFFICIENT. The same CANNOT BE SAID FOR VOID STAFF. It requires an investment of 50+ MR, literally doubling the tankiest champs base MR at level 18 to START TO BECOME EFFICIENT. You have no fucking clue what you're talking about, and result to baseless and inane ad hominems to try to discredit others when you're asinine assumptions aren't even close to correct.
Not only this, but LDR is efficient against almost half of all champions (46% of the entire roster) base armor alone. If you include just the armor rune, its well over half of all champions. Notice how that's all without any of them purchasing a single actual piece of armor. If you include a paltry {{item:3047}} its 75% of all champions.
Reksee (NA)
: Because adcs are the most vulnerable to bursting (although bruisers and tanks suffer from it too) and in a majority of cases, an adc won't buy a purely defensive item.
For six years, League of Legends was based around everyone being required to build purely defensive items, or they were literally trolling, and throwing games. Suddenly ADCs get reworks, and major item changes in S6 and all that gets tossed out the window so they can have their cake, the tanks cake, and eat them both too, as they get all their sustain for free, passively, from overtuned runes (while defensive runes essentially don't even exist) while also getting more free damage from runes than ever before ***at the same time*** then they get the defensive items tailored and catered to them (cough PD, cough G-fucking-A, cough Sterak's/Maw abuse and getting both nerfed into the ground, and made so they cannot stack together, cough getting frozen mallet also gutted, as well as TBC) while ruining them for every other class, but especially tanks and juggernauts. Now they don't even want to build actual defensive items, let alone ever actually purchasing armor pen to deal with other targets, except for those who can abuse {{item:3124}}, let alone ever fucking reacting to their enemies and changing up anything from their cookie cutter, extremely efficient builds and amazing 1, 1.5, and 2.5 item power spikes that essentially let them hit late game damage before laning is really over. Its almost like we need to stop catering to this toxic, infantile mentality for the sake of the rest of the entire fucking game and the other 12 goddamn and RIOT forsaken subclasses.
: > [{quoted}](name=Hayaishi2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A8z8ygjE,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-08-01T20:19:59.835+0000) > > Bork and cleaver does 0 damage. It's not even a good build anymore. It’s still one of the most built items in the game. By miles. And removing 24% of armor isn’t increasing damage?
Let alone 8% hp per hit, with his free extra auto, making it 16% HP. Remember, a target just needs 1250 HP for BotRK to give more average damage per auto than a motherfucking BT.
Reksee (NA)
: Anti Burst Item Ideas
Why are these anti burst items so ridiculously damage focused? What we actually need are ways to kill the hypermobile and hyper damage champions who are *SUPPOSED TO BE SQUISHY AND WEAK TO BURST*, but have ways for Tanks and Juggernauts to actually survive the ridiculous levels of ranged and AoE burst damage that effectively kill them in 2 or fewer seconds before they have a chance to even get in, let alone do their actual job. And remember, these are the only classes in the game that ***YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO BURST DOWN*** yet they suffer the worst from the hyperinfalted damage of the last oh, 3, almost 4 years worth of imblance.
: > [{quoted}](name=Knyron,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=U9eJTE9X,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-07-31T23:55:20.913+0000) > > It seems that a few years before everyone at Riot decided to make the game shittier in every sense. Finish your sentence.
> [{quoted}](name=goodiesohhi,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=U9eJTE9X,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-08-01T03:38:47.015+0000) > > Finish your sentence. This is a complete, and sensible sentence though. Its missing a coma after before, but the sentence is far from a fragment.
: Except they *did* make changes to TT. Itemization, champion balance, even map updates, all to try and get more people to play the mode. It didn't work. Riot has access to **all** the data, which means that they could see if the player base would boost up when they made changes. Judging by their decision to just remove the mode, I'm guessing it didn't go up by much, if at all. I've been on the Boards when they've made changes to TT. There was basically no noise about it at all. I'm sorry that the mode is leaving, I really am, but the simple fact of the matter is that basically no one was playing it, and that's just not something Riot can keep around.
> [{quoted}](name=Wilk Rycerz,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=3A3N1X5O,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-01T03:12:07.921+0000) > > Except they *did* make changes to TT. Itemization, champion balance, even map updates, all to try and get more people to play the mode. It didn't work. > > Riot has access to **all** the data, which means that they could see if the player base would boost up when they made changes. Judging by their decision to just remove the mode, I'm guessing it didn't go up by much, if at all. > > I've been on the Boards when they've made changes to TT. There was basically no noise about it at all. I'm sorry that the mode is leaving, I really am, but the simple fact of the matter is that basically no one was playing it, and that's just not something Riot can keep around. Bro, don't even stand here and fucking lie. Their last change was early in 2015, after not having changed it for over two years previously from early 2013. 2 changes over the last 6, almost 7 years, the last of which was over four fucking years ago, while this game is barely 10 years old for reference is not making changes to the mode. Its fucking abandoning it and leaving it to the dogs, and its incredibly intellectually dishonest and completely disingenuous to pretend otherwise. EDIT: since you apparently fucking missed this entirely in the other thread, let me copy and paste something for you: "Dude. The last patch for TT specifically was patch 5.11 S E A S O N F I V E THE LAST TT SPECIFIC UPDATE BEFORE THAT WAS PATCH 3 . 1 0 THREE. POINT. TEN."
: TT is fucking shit to play man, the jungle camps are so unnatural/outdated and don't give sufficient xp that you just spam the 3 over and over again. And it's so easy to get spotted and killed in 1v3 in the middle part while your laners farm or are too weak with too little CS to get enough gold to be stronger.
> [{quoted}](name=14daysuspensionk,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=7Ep2ovIw,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-07-31T23:16:37.158+0000) > > TT is fucking shit to play man, the jungle camps are so unnatural/outdated and don't give sufficient xp that you just spam the 3 over and over again. And it's so easy to get spotted and killed in 1v3 in the middle part while your laners farm or are too weak with too little CS to get enough gold to be stronger. You clearly don't touch the mode. The junglers actually outlevel the laners as the jungle camps are worth more gold and EXP than SR jungle camps have given for several seasons now.
: > [{quoted}](name=MasterOfMetaI,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rhfdVaUJ,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-07-31T18:29:20.405+0000) > > Every issue you just listed is a result of Riot not giving a shit about the mode past 2012 But which came first? Did people not play because Riot didn't give a shit or did Riot stop giving a shit because people didn't play it?
> [{quoted}](name=SpecterVonBaren,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rhfdVaUJ,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2019-07-31T22:39:53.583+0000) > > But which came first? Did people not play because Riot didn't give a shit or did Riot stop giving a shit because people didn't play it? RIOT never gave a shit, left it in BETA for literal years without doing anything to change it, and they literally forgot it was still in BETA. Then they removed the BETA tag without changing or doing anything, then left it for, well, essentially from 2012 'till now doing all of fuck all. They never once gave a shit or did anything, so it was definitely RIOT who never bothered to give a shit, and nothing against the literal millions of people who played and still play the mode.
Warreen (EUNE)
: PYKE 600 GOLD FOR 1 KILL ???
RIOT has no fucking clue how to balance, and lately has been catering towards lesser skilled players, and those who merely spam buttons to get kills, rather than reward strategic or tactical use of abilities, macro play, rotations, objective securing, etc. Them doubling down on the rewards Pyke gets for easy kills while also buffing up the damage and scaling on his ult? Pretty much par for the shitty ass course this game has been going down for the last 4+ years. No it doesn't make sense. No Pyke did not at all need it. No it is not balanced. No it is not fair. RIOT playing favorites with their assassins and marksmen, and 'kill-y' champs once a-fucking-gain. Oh yeah, and some Kha and Lee buffs too, when neither needs one, and both are actually over-performing. Surprise surprise.
: Ruined? Ruined would imply that there was something to ruin. Let's be honest, the ONLY thing old Galio had going for him was the flash taunt.
Are we just forgetting his amazing W entirely? I still think that was hands down the best tank steroid this game has ever had.
Schenix (NA)
: Being able to flash while taunting was bordering on toxic when coupled with everything else he was capable of doing. He became a teamfighting boon and a constant lane threat with almost no frames after the flash to avoid if a play was started by either him or a jungler. Too much of his power budget had to be given to that and left out of the rest of his kit because of this. Whether or not I agree about having it, they kept removing power from him because he could do that one thing and still be average at all other bases. Now he has room for buffs in all other areas of his abilities, and I hope they take the time to flesh that out soon. i.e. Gaining Unstoppable on his W charge, W charge range increasing faster and starting at a slightly longer range, Ult giving back inner and outer circle again, Q mana cost going down, passive shield modifying his passive smash damage by same amount, etc.
Let's just ignore the 5 minute cooldown, and the fact that he loses the ability to escape from doing so, and that you can react flash/dash/blink away as well, or the fact that a whole host of other champions can also do the same or very similar, without even self slowing themselves first, or needing to channel to begin with.
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Yets4240

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