: There’s a bug where the Varus W proc isn’t capped on the walking nexus and does 1/3 of it’s health in one proc.
> [{quoted}](name=nintendo625,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=A6uAU8Yl,comment-id=0165,timestamp=2018-08-21T15:46:37.741+0000) > > There’s a bug where the Varus W proc isn’t capped on the walking nexus and does 1/3 of it’s health in one proc. Fixed in 8.17! They're now counted as epic monsters for purposes of max hp dmg.
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=magewick,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=gA16fKMZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-17T15:47:25.943+0000) > > Anyone specific reason why the tahm w damage buff didn't go through? > > Also, are you doing nexus blitz specific balancing or is that a different team? Hi! As a member of the Nexus Blitz team, let me field that second question. We are indeed doing Nexus Blitz specific balance. We're prepping a hotfix at the moment in the hopes of getting it out today I believe; August would know more. The TLDR is we're looking at making on fire less oppressive on a certain class of champions (mostly mages, by changing how its CDR works on the ult slot), we'll buff some of the lowest performers through base stats, and we're debating an ally healing debuff (this one's less likely although Sona and Taric are crazy strong).
: Poor Amumu. 10% increase in friendship doesn't matter when the original number is 0.
We'll make sure to special case Amumu and give him +10% imaginary friendship instead.
: You could remove wards to make more surprising events and clown fiestas happen.
> [{quoted}](name=MrCaptainBanana,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=yKk22n3O,comment-id=00d4,timestamp=2018-08-07T20:44:45.617+0000) > > You could remove wards to make more surprising events and clown fiestas happen. We tried this at first! No vision / vision you don't control is incredibly frustrating. This isn't the vision system we think is perfect for Nexus Blitz, but it's the best option we could build for the alpha. Look for us to revisit vision if we continue working on this past the test.
AD Yuumi (NA)
: Shared jungle XP and Gold you say?
What a brilliant idea! If only a very handsome group of designers had already made this a thing!
: The map reminds me a lot of mobile MOBA games like Vainglory. Is that an inspiration you guys used for developing this mode?
Haven't played Vainglory myself (I have played Arena of Valor and Mobile Legends, but not much), but here's a funny story about the map layout: we started from "Aram with a jungle", which was a single lane with a jungle either on both sides or on one side. A week into the project I had an idea and drew it out on a piece of paper: what if the lanes split in the middle, so we don't always have the ARAM death ball? Sounds cool, let's try it some time later. Some time later, August joins the project. Knowing next to nothing about the map or things we'd considered, the first thing he pitches? A split lane, nearly identical to my pitch. There's something about this layout that just seems to make sense!
: > [{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=yKk22n3O,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2018-07-31T17:19:46.469+0000) > > there's only two lanes. It's duo jungle, then likely a duo lane and a solo lane. I was going to mention the turrets at top, but they seem to work a bit differently on closer inspection. Maybe they're sort of like Xerath in Ascension and block off that point until an event happens involving them later in the game or something?
Nah they're just untargetable turrets in your jungle, protecting your gromp camp and (partly) your wolf camp. Because "your" jungle isn't inherently safer on Blitz, we needed to give you some poaching protection.
: ASDF for abilities. QWERTY for items 1-6, 1 for Trinket, VB for Summoners, M for Recall. It's super amusing when introducing someone to an iteration on my machine and they end up burning Flash when trying to recall.
Clearly Flash belongs on V, not B!
Rouwhorst (EUW)
: > The problem with it was that it felt too inevitable; it didn't meet our standards for minimum gameplay as and against for a keystone. It was very much like Fervor of Battle in that way: essentially it's just a bunch of stats with no real way for the enemy to do anything about it. Okay, first things first, you stated that it didn't meet your standards **as** and **against**, however, if I interpret it correctly, you only gave an argument for why it didn't meet the standards to play against: there is no way for the enemy to interact. I am doubtful this is all you use to determine if a rune is good enough or not, so please elaborate on the standards **as** and **against**. Secondly, if the only good reason was that it had not enough counter play then... Then what about all those other keystones that have no way to play against? There are only a few I can list which you can moderately play against: Comet and Aftershock by actually dodging. (which is denied with some simple cc). _By the way, the gameplay on comet is quite bad since the user has little control of it, it all depends on how well the enemy plays, effectively it decreases the reliability of the rune_ Some others are mainly cooldown gated, which could be considered as counter play, since you can counter-attack in the meantime: Electrocute, Predator, Aftershock, Guardian, Comet and phase rush. This cooldown can be well player around, both by opponents and users. But this playing around is only available beforehand and if your opponent gets to choose when an encounter occurs this counter play is completely negated. Another method is by walking away when a keystone triggers: Predator, dark harvest (20 seconds is long!), Lethal Tempo (1.5s is short) and PtA (3 attacks is little) If we ignore all those we are still left with some keystones: Grasp, Fleet Footwork, Aery, Klepto, Spellbook and Glacial Augment. (decreasing order of enemy influence) So clearly, not all keystones meet these standards. And moreover, the proposed solution still fits in with the walk away "counterplay". By saying the enemy has not enough ways to counteract this proposal, you reject the method of walking away, which increases the list... Additionally if you felt there was really not enough counter play why not cooldown gate it? Finally the "continuously hit minions" is a bit lame. Keeping an eye constantly on the buff bar fearing that that thing will suddenly wear off, combined with the increased difficulty of wave management makes it generally not a very liked mechanic by players.
> [{quoted}](name=Rouwhorst,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHXiioEA,comment-id=00180004,timestamp=2018-03-03T00:21:04.645+0000) > > Okay, first things first, you stated that it didn't meet your standards **as** and **against**, however, if I interpret it correctly, you only gave an argument for why it didn't meet the standards to play against: there is no way for the enemy to interact. I am doubtful this is all you use to determine if a rune is good enough or not, so please elaborate on the standards **as** and **against**. > Sure: playing AS, the mastery had 0 reasons for you to do anything differently from what you were doing anyway. You played EXACTLY the same with or without Fervor of Battle. That's not good enough! > Secondly, if the only good reason was that it had not enough counter play then... > Then what about all those other keystones that have no way to play against? You're not wrong! A number of keystones we made do not live up to those standards. Comet is definitely one of them (but Aftershock absolutely isn't; the get out of the circle / keep them in the circle play is sufficiently different for both sides and players demonstrably make decisions around this). Comet if anything indexes TOO high on the playing against: it has the mindshare (how much of your time you need to spend thinking about it) of a champion spell in terms of "dodge the circle". That's too much for a keystone! I wouldn't be surprised if we replaced or reworked comet. The fact that we sometimes failed in the past doesn't make it okay to go forward and fail some more, though. We convinced ourselves at the time that comet would have play as, and we were wrong; we'll fix that. That doesn't mean we can say "well comet is live and it doesn't do the thing we want it to do, so now we can go and make more things that don't do the thing we want them to do". That make sense?
: > [{quoted}](name=ZenonTheStoic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHXiioEA,comment-id=001800020000,timestamp=2018-03-02T19:45:03.064+0000) > > Why do you think that's a problem? Again, I think that's a great thing: same input, different output. It makes the story of "how does a Grasp user fight a Conqueror user" way clearer and more interesting: the Grasp user wants to proc Grasp and DISENGAGE, the Conqueror user wants to proc Conqueror and STICK. Clear success criteria, different optimal cases mean that these two runes will be able to coexist without one pushing the other out. While I definitely agree with this, the visibility of Conquerer's effect compared to the strength it can have in a 1v1 concerns me, especially on particle-heavy champions (like, say, Tryndamere with his fury and his healing occupying space on his model) or motion-heavy champions (like Riven). I can definitely see a situation where a Grasp user tries to stay in combat for multiple Grasp procs (which I've seen on many occasions), only to lose horribly to a Conquerer build he didn't remember had activated. I know that's kind of just an awareness burden that exists elsewhere, but given the long-term potential power behind the buff and the similar warm-up the two keystones (likely to occupy the same lane) share, as well as the incentive to try to maximize Grasp hits, I wonder if a more visible Conquerer indicator might be a good idea, if only to remind players that it's still in play -- especially since it's one of the few keystones with a long-term effect you need to really plan around. Thoughts?
WOAH what's a Herald? Are you gonna hurt my turret? Yeah, totally agree on visibility of VFX, which is why we're still actively working on the VFX. What you're seeing at the moment is the very first draft of it. We've given the VFX artist the feedback that the effect is easily lost. Nevermind in teamfights (where I think it's okay for keystones to get lost), even in a 1v1 you can often not tell.
: > I think it's very useful for the system to have two effects that say "stay in combat for 4s and attack an enemy champion for X". The problem here is that you can just proc Grasp and get out. Whereas when you proc Conqueror it's only the beginning, you need to stay in the fight for even longer to actually benefit from it. So even if the activation paradigm is the same, the effects are too different for the parallel to hold well. > Finally, as one release valve output we've also decided that the first damage that puts you in combat puts you in combat for 4 seconds, so your fallback is when you're being poked you can decide to jump in 4s later with Conqueror fully primed. We're testing making this change for grasp as well. I don't know about Conqueror, but this sounds like a giant buff to Grasp. Can the Keystone afford such a power up without risking a compensatory nerf pretty soon?
> The problem here is that you can just proc Grasp and get out. Whereas when you proc Conqueror it's only the beginning, you need to stay in the fight for even longer to actually benefit from it. So even if the activation paradigm is the same, the effects are too different for the parallel to hold well. Why do you think that's a problem? Again, I think that's a great thing: same input, different output. It makes the story of "how does a Grasp user fight a Conqueror user" way clearer and more interesting: the Grasp user wants to proc Grasp and DISENGAGE, the Conqueror user wants to proc Conqueror and STICK. Clear success criteria, different optimal cases mean that these two runes will be able to coexist without one pushing the other out. > > I don't know about Conqueror, but this sounds like a giant buff to Grasp. Can the Keystone afford such a power up without risking a compensatory nerf pretty soon? That's a good question! I've had some conversations around this and we currently feel that yes it can. It buffs almost only the behind case. If you're ahead and you can afford to stand in the minion wave and have the effect primed at all times, nothing changes for you. If you're too far behind to approach the enemy in the wave, you now have the option to use incoming poke as an opportunity to turn things around. I think that's a healthy buff.
: [FEEDBACK] Experimental "Bruiser" Keystone: Conqueror
Hi! Thanks for this post, this is very well thought out and argued! You have very good design instincts, but we have one unfair advantage over you: we've actually been able to test out some of the things you suggest ;) So your suggested activation paradigm where the keystone gradually ramps up in combat was the very first iteration of this rune that Stashu tried out. The problem with it was that it felt too inevitable; it didn't meet our standards for minimum gameplay as and against for a keystone. It was very much like Fervor of Battle in that way: essentially it's just a bunch of stats with no real way for the enemy to do anything about it. My next iteration was having the keystone ramp up gradually while you were near an enemy champion. This had a couple of cool implications, such as allowing some ranged champions to opt in without making it broken OP for ADCs. Urgot was foremost on my mind here. He has a very bruiser-esque combat pattern and would really have loved this keystone, I think. At the time, the output was still adaptive (we default to adaptive when there isn't a good reason to make it either AD or AP only), so I had some hope for Ryze and Cassio as well. Sidebar: why are we even making this thing? It's not like bruisers have no keystones. Most of them have a keystone that they post very good win rates with, and that players pick in large numbers. The problem is those keystones achieve these winrates by shoring up weaknesses in a champion's kit, rather than doubling down on a champion's strength. If Fiora runs Kleptomancy or Open Spellbook in lane, she does this to sustain herself through the lane and make sure she's not pushed out of CSing and put behind. This is functional and powerful, but I strongly suspect it's not what Fiora players want (and I'm almost certain Phase Rush isn't what Darius players want, and Kleptomancy isn't what Illaoi players want). It's good to have the option to shore up weaknesses to a degree, but it shouldn't be your strongest option, and it surely shouldn't be your only option. Weaknesses on a kit exist for a reason: they tell a story for the enemy team about how to handle this character. If you take that away, you make the game less interesting for either side. I suspect that DPS mages like Ryze and Cassio suffer from a similar rune shortage. They run Open Spellbook to survive the lane (Ryze) or Phase Rush to hunt down squishies in 1v1s/skirmishes or to dodge incoming damage in a teamfight (Cassio), but they don't have a good option if they just want to double down on their damage. This rune could have been an option. We have something else in flight that might do it for them. (end of sidebar) The problem with the range-based version was that it was very visually noisy (lots of circles) and very kit-bound (you either have or don't have the tools to stick on someone). Also the mindshare was just a little too high for a keystone. It did give the enemy something to do (i.e. wait until the full effect turns on, then create distance until it falls off), but it forced the enemy to play around the keystone more than around the champion. We settled on the Grasp paradigm as something that has proven gameplay, and we think there's a pattern here that deserves abstraction into more effects; just like Phase Rush and Electrocute are both "land 3 hits to get X", I think it's very useful for the system to have two effects that say "stay in combat for 4s and attack an enemy champion for X". Uniqueness is not an absolute value. Sometimes being similar to another element of the system makes the decision space for the entire system richer. You're also absolutely right in your assessment that this rune is going to be trivial to activate in lane, especially when you're ahead and when you can just afford to stand in the minion wave and always have it primed, and that it's much, much harder to make good use of it in a teamfight, where it's unlikely that you can actively prime it before the fact and where most of the important stuff usually happens in the first 2-3 seconds--either you or the enemy is likely to be dead or otherwise out of the fight. However, we've decided that this is a good thing. We want to embrace this. Runes generally should exhibit most of their strength in the early game and then fade into the background later (some exceptions--like Dark Harvest--notwithstanding). It's also a pretty snowbally rune, which again, we like. This is meant to be a rune that doubles down on the strengths of bruisers without shoring up any of their weaknesses. Winning more when ahead is a very bruisery output, being better at split-pushing than at teamfighting is as well. There is a cost: you're constantly pushing if you're always in the minion wave, attacking to keep your Conqueror primed. Finally, as one release valve output we've also decided that the first damage that puts you in combat puts you in combat for 4 seconds, so your fallback is when you're being poked you can decide to jump in 4s later with Conqueror fully primed. We're testing making this change for grasp as well. I hope that all makes sense! Hit me up with any other questions you might have.
: Tried it out on my boy {{champion:83}} The moment you melee someone you're ghouls and maiden is gonna fuck shit up. Pro: It's gonna fuck shit up good, adc's can't use it well. Con: Still too much damage in the game, the burst meta needs to go.
I don't think "sustained damage over time after a 4s rampup" counts as burst damage.
: It should make Darius's true damage even more true damage unblockable by shields and immortality {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
It's funny, so many champions that can use this already have some true damage in their kit, which makes the rune WORSE on them.
: This is going to go fantastically with my boy {{champion:122}}
Oh yes. Grasp still does better in some matchups, I think, but he's a great user of the rune. Once we go into teamfights though it does next to nothing for him.
: yup, it's the champions that aren't vulnerable to kiting that will be a problem. Such as {{champion:114}} she is about to do some serious true damage. Honestly why is true damage even a thing outside of {{summoner:14}} ? was it needed to counter something? seems like something that only causes balance problems.
We've not been able to make this work on Fiora at all! Both because she already does true damage (so she loses out on the effectiveness of the rune--part of the damage it "turns into" true damage is already true damage, so it does nothing for that damage, and partly because the 4s ramp up are WAY too long for Fiora--by the time this rune kicks in, it's already too late. It's a good laning rune for her though!) The champions this does best on right now are the likes of Darius and Renekton. They don't super love the attack speed in the precision tree, even though it's strictly good on them (Darius get his bleed stacks faster, Renekton gets his fury faster). It's like spinach for them--good for them, but they don't want it.
Ralanr (NA)
: Refreshes it? So potentially a Melee champion can keep doing this straight an entire fight? That’s nuts.
Yeah, as long as you can deal damage to an enemy champion at least once every 2s, you can keep it going indefinitely right now. We might cap this to a maximum duration if we find that's necessary, but we're currently not seeing any reason to do so. Most fights, especially team fights, are over in 4 seconds. In a team fight you barely even get a keystone. This is very much a skirmish/lane/split push rune. The counterplay for the enemy is to disengage after the effect comes online, wait for it to fall off, and then engage again, giving them another 4s where you don't have a keystone.
: I like hearing about the "back-end" of game development in these posts. Really sheds some light on how your team thinks, and I'll be keeping the mastery curve thing in mind with your future balance decisions. I would love to see more mastery curves for more champs, and more often. Since you mentioned Singed, I would have loved to see his curve :P
I remember on release Azir didn't so much have a mastery curve as a mastery cliff that you had to repeatedly throw yourself against. Ah, good times.
Reav3 (NA)
: I would say the current pool after Akali/Irelia are {{champion:36}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:96}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:20}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:33}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:35}} {{champion:77}} {{champion:106}} These are the ones we generally discuss talk about these days when we go into early ideation on new VGUs. Some more then others, but all of these would make sense at this point, for various reasons. Obviously Kayle would be paired with a Morgana, should we end up working on her.
: I could be wrong, but I don't believe the stars are considered "Targeted". So this shouldn't affect him at all.
Rabbit is correct. Stars are skillshots (technically circle missiles). We're only talking about stuff where you put your mouse over an enemy, press a button, and they take damage pretty much no matter what.
: Happy Holidays Meddler, really do appreciate the extra effort you're making with these posts to increase gameplay communication. And look forward to 2018 with Xenogenic, August, CertainlyT and Wrekz's VGUs
I didn't even have to look at the nick to know this was a Spideraxe post.
: Overwatch is REMOVING performance-based "SR" gains from their ladder
We had this conversation more than 8 years ago. There are absolutely improvements you can keep making to matchmaking, but having an algorithm guess how much you contributed to a win I don't think is a very promising approach.
: >you now, I think in overwatch they banned a guy for ranting against blizzard staff, you guys have so much patience Kaplan is more patient than I am. > So, I don't know what all GC really does with League. He goes to meetings.
AD Yuumi (NA)
: {{sticker:sg-jinx}}
I don't understand why we're trying to make August happy. That seems like a bad goal statement to me.
: Greetings Meddler, I do not know if this is the right place to do it, but I came to talk about Tahm Kench. I am, in short, suggesting changing the stun of his Q on thrice-stacked targets into a charm instead. Why am I suggesting such a thing ? Context. I am a big fan of Tahm Kench. I personally think he is one of the best designed champions in the game, in terms of coherency between his visuals, background, and gameplay (you can give his dev team my congratulations). But I feel that, regarding the way he is designed, a last improvement could be made. I’ve read the Champion Insight that was published when he released (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/champion-preview/champion-insights-tahm-kench-river-king). I shall use it to back my words. In this Champ Insight, we learn that Tahm Kench’s character is built around his mouth. He is at first a mere devourer, but then, he is also a charmer, someone who uses his mouth and tongue to both attract and devour his prey. Thus, linking background and gameplay, we can understand that when he licks his enemies (with his basic attacks and his Q), he is somewhat talking them into trusting him (the slow), slowly trapping them thanks to his eloquence... So, when, he achieves this, he finally charming his enemies would make a lot more sense than a simple stun. In a world full of slows, stuns and knock-ups, CC abilities like charm, fear, or taunt conveys in my eyes much more than just power, strength, or precision (which are what is mostly conveyed through stuns or knock-ups) ; these “different” CC types show really well uniqueness or personality in my opinion. It is, I understand that, important that such CC exist, but for Tahm Kench ? Is it really power, strength, precision, that define him ? Tahm’s dev team fully committed into a character created around his mouth and his uses of it. A silver-tongued, talking fiend that charms his enemies, wouldn’t it be so perfect in game ? Still, I understand a few things. First, that it is a different kind of CC that may reveal harder to balance. It is obvious that, a charm being more powerful that a stun for Tahm Kench’s kit, the duration of the CC is likely gonna go down (a 1.5 second-lasting charm would be pretty busted ; better make it 1 second or so). Second, that he is probably not your priority at all. There’s the Worlds, the Runes Reforged, the preseason... And Tahm is fine as he is, it seems, in the current meta. I am just asking to you, to Riot’s dev team, to consider it, to keep it somewhere in your head(s) and, if you think this is worth it, to at least try it out. Thanks for hearing me out, you do a great job overall.
Hi Howain! That's a good question and it makes sense at first blush that Tahm Kench's output would be a charm. However, thematics and in-game feel don't always map perfectly. In game, we needed a strong, straight-forward spell with good gameplay around it to realize Tahm Kench's threat-over-time pattern (stay around him for too long and you'll be stunned or devoured). Tongue Lash is a straight-forward skillshot with a long self-root, like Amumu's Q or Blitzcrank's Q, which we know has pretty good play around it. However, forcefully striking an enemy with your tongue isn't a thing that lends itself to a charm, in my mind. It makes sense if you know who Tahm Kench is, but if literally all you know is "he's a catfish who slaps you with his tongue", it makes no sense. In my mind, the aspect of Tahm tricking people with his mellifluous verbiage is more on the meta level of how you don't take him seriously due to the silly things he says and his funny animations, until suddenly he eats you and all is darkness.
: wait.... what champ did you design?
Meddler designed Elise, Varus, Ziggs, Lissandra, and Syndra.
: Thought he was intended as a top laner?
> [{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYUihrQy,comment-id=00120003,timestamp=2017-06-09T19:23:03.319+0000) > > Thought he was intended as a top laner? We pivoted half-way through development from top lane to support with a top secondary. When we allowed W to eat allies it just made a lot more sense to have him lane with an ally. So the intention is support first, top secondary, and that's pretty much what we're seeing.
: > [{quoted}](name=ZenonTheStoic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYUihrQy,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2017-06-09T19:12:15.800+0000) > > This would make his jungle crazy strong. He's an okay jungler right now, and we'd like to leave it there. If we make him a really powerful jungler, we would likely have to make some compensatory nerfs. This would leave him weaker than he is right now in top and support. We think he's best as a support, so that would be a bad thing. Not sure why the best method of balancing tanks in the jungle is making them take forever to clear it. Just not fun for the tank player.
> [{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYUihrQy,comment-id=00120002,timestamp=2017-06-09T19:22:38.130+0000) > > Not sure why the best method of balancing tanks in the jungle is making them take forever to clear it. Just not fun for the tank player. There's a whole bunch of levers we have to balance tanks in the jungle. Clear speed is only one of them. OP is coming at this problem from a solution-first perspective though, without defining well what the goal is and what the intended change is. If your goal is just "make TK a better jg", there's a bunch of things you can do and it's not obvious to me why letting him devour buff monsters is the best way to execute on the goal. And like I said, whenever you consider changes to move toward a certain goal, you have to consider their unintended consequences. In this case, he's in a great place support, so any change that runs the risk of requiring nerfs after the fact harms a much more valuable state of things, namely that he's in a good place for his most played role.
Warsame (NA)
: Can Taric ignore unit collision while his dazzle is charging?
I'm pretty sure Repertoire considered this when he worked on the Taric update. Lucian for instance gets it for his R for the same reason. I'm going to trust that we decided not to give him ghost during the E delay for good reason; I'd assume it's too much invisible power to add on something that can be used relatively frequently (it's not an ult). I'd be sad to see Taric use E while running away just to path through minions.
abdul569 (EUW)
: Scuttle needs a buff icon to show how many skillshots have missed her
Better yet: the number of enemy skillshots she tanked for you.
: It's time to revisit why Kench cannot devour a buff after three attacks like he can champions
This would make his jungle crazy strong. He's an okay jungler right now, and we'd like to leave it there. If we make him a really powerful jungler, we would likely have to make some compensatory nerfs. This would leave him weaker than he is right now in top and support. We think he's best as a support, so that would be a bad thing.
: Hmm, which part of this is the hint? *Undercut* can't be coincidental. Karate champion incoming?!
xVnFEmma (EUW)
: News on Azir? Rek'sai in 7.6 ?
Azir will likely require a bigger chunk of changes. We've tentatively scheduled some work soonish (although I last spoke to the team in charge of this about Azir back in January, so the plan may have changed). We'd be looking to change the character at a pattern level where we can feel confident going forward that we can bring his solo queue power up without turning the LCS into Shurima. What that would look like? Who knows!
: NOW COMPLETE - [Q&A] Ask Ivern's Creators Anything!
If there was a doom bot Ivern, what would he do?
Hige (NA)
: do you think that her W should use a more accurate indicator instead of just the vector arrow? this would definitely make the skill easier to land though. Also, do you think that having a middle number between 0% and 100% extra damage on minions is the best solution for her waveclear problems?
I absolutely do think so, but unfortunately this will require making some changes to the underlying vector cast code. I can't give you an ETA. Not sure about the waveclear part. Maybe? I'm no good with numbers.
B0OM (NA)
: I get that Taliyah originally had a lockout on her W.
Here's why I originally put a spell cast lockout on Taliyah's W: * I wanted to give the player breathing room to press the W button a second time. * I was very scared of W into E as a best case burst scenario Here's why we reached the decision to remove the lockout: * It felt really awful not to be able to cast anything else if you got the W combo down quickly. It felt like you got better at W (you're quicker now) but the game won't let you use that hard-won skill * It turns out that we can either have proper spell queueing during a delay or good communication that a spell cannot currently be cast, but not both. This is one of the areas in the game we're working to improve. Either way, the experience was not up to our standards. It also turns out that I was wrong to be scared of W into E. Ranges and cooldowns make this combo reasonably balanced. The things we're struggling with right now on her kit are her wave clear (which we've hit very hard. It was meant to be a strength, but it was clearly excessive), the difference is usefulness of her ult between coordinated and uncoordinated play (we always knew this was going to be trouble but signed ourselves up for it because the skill is cool), and how much she falls off late game. Her theoretical DPS is absurdly high, but the later the game goes, the more of a premium there is on getting your damage out INSTANTLY, and her Q means she always has to wait a minimum of 2s to get one rotation out. Again, if you do the math? Her late game DPS is off the charts: At 40% CDR, she has a 2.4s CD spell that deals 420 + 1.2 AP. That's just the one spell. But then you look at actual data and we see there are very few champions in the game who fall off late game quite as hard as she does. Remember that ours is a game that's never done. Obviously we'll continue working on her and we'll get her into a good spot.
: SHUT UP AND GET IN THIS KLED Q&A
Can you confirm that Kled is Skaarl's patronus and not the other way around?
: So, is Rengar going to remain an Assassin or will his rework open him up to build more akin to a skirmisher or bruiser.
His update is coming out as part of the assassins update, so... uh... yes he will remain an assassin.
: [Patch 6.14] (2 Hidden Nerfs) Taliyah's W "Seismic Shove".
Hi! You're spot on about both of these things: there is now a human input delay to how long it takes you to draw the arrow and release your mouse, and out of range casting is no longer clamped. These are both tradeoffs that come along with the concept of vector casting. We could change these; arguably we could even do exactly what you propose (although clamping a vector cast is not trivial from a "read the player's intention" point of view: if you draw the arrow at an angle that's not 0 or 180 degrees and we transpose your origin point to be closer to you, do we transpose the displacement vector or do we adjust the angle such that the target still goes from the origin point to where you drew your arrow to? That is to say, do we conserve DIRECTION or TARGET POSITION? There is no correct answer here and either way someone would feel the game screwed them). This would be a decent amount of technical behind the scenes work (the game has a very limited number of targeting types and making a new one is a fair bit of work), but more importantly, one of the secondary goals of switching Taliyah W to vector cast has been to reduce the number of different spell casting paradigms in the game. My Taliyah 1.0 W casting paradigm was "vector casting but not really"; one of the big gains we made toward learnability of the game as a whole in 6.14 has been to reduce that down to just vector casting. If we did "vector casting but it's clamped and the delay starts with your first input" we'd be going back to "vector casting but not really". You're also right in that this change makes Taliyah harder to learn and master, which was not our goal, but at this point we're talking about an overflowing sink on the Titanic. Sure that's a problem, but we've got much bigger problems that ALSO cause there to be some water damage. Between her Q, her R, and the pathing required to optimize P she's just a super hard champion to learn. I'd love for that to change, but there's always a hundred things you'd love to be the case for your champion, and in this case, wanting more players to be able to play and enjoy her *at all* was the more important consideration. In summary, I hear you on your concerns and we will continue to listen and adjust as necessary. I think the W change has showed that when we're wrong, we'll admit we're wrong and fix things as best we can. Please continue trusting us that we have the best interests of our players in mind here.
RocketRex (EUNE)
: Taliyah W should work on her self also
We considered this but ultimately chose not to go for it. Two reasons: 1) This would make her even MORE like Ziggs ;P 2) If W becomes a guaranteed safety tool, eventually good Taliyah players would be discouraged from using the ability offensively (because always being able to survive is so much more valuable).
Mac2492 (NA)
: Preface: This post is echoed from my [reddit comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4qyko6/taliyah_changes_for_614/d4xhxp3). It's long because I love this champion. Taliyah's winrate after 30 games is 58% ([Source](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1bunGEHs-taliyah-changes-for-614?comment=000300010001)\). She is already tenuously balanced and this change will make her completely imbalanced. This change does not simply make Taliyah's combo easier. It completely changes her playstyle and in many cases will **increase** her damage output. Any dedicated Taliyah player will quickly realize this whereas people who've only used her a handful of times think this is just a "QoL" change. This change will set Taliyah up for failure, and here's why. This is going to be an unpopular opinion because Taliyah is an unpopular champion, but I believe most dedicated Taliyah players will be on the same page here. This change completely changes the way Taliyah plays. Right now she requires careful positioning to poke with Q. You drop an E to zone and/or setup for a kill combo. If they don't run, you W them into the boulders and make them regret it. After this change, Taliyah will just stand somewhere without Worked Ground and focus on landing a single Seismic Shove to get the rest of her kit for free. Most of the intricate strategy involved in using Taliyah has gone out the window. Her kit currently does insane damage. What happens when this insane damage is easily accessible? This innocent change is going to needlessly turn Taliyah into a nightmare because the fact that she has to place an obvious wall of boulders before exploding you is, while inconvenient, really the only thing keeping her damage remotely balanced. This small change actually turns her skill rotation into a trivial one that requires minimal effort for the sake of making her less "clunky" in the hands of players who immediately gave up on her. The damage falloff on E isn't nearly enough to compensate for Taliyah's insane burst. To put this into perspective, Taliyah's current rotation will do about 1280 + 320% AP damage at max level. Diana's rotation has about 1100 + 270% AP power. This is factoring in two uses of her ult (meaning she landed Q first) and her passive. Lux's entire kit will do about 1308 + 245% AP assuming two passive procs (1 AA + ult). Now imagine getting hit with a single Nami bubble and taking damage equivalent to the entirely of Diana/Lux's kit with little to no counterplay. The previous E > W restriction should make more sense now. While the boulders make her combo "clunky", they also serve as vital information required to dodge the skill in the first place. Reducing the knockthrough boulder damage by about 15% total isn't nearly enough to compensate for this change. It would be akin to removing the opponent's ability to see what cards TF is picking (granted, this change has a positive effect unlike that example). The damage is still too high when you consider how much easier the combo is to land now, and it will absolutely be nerfed further. It's even more ridiculous when you consider how this actually INCREASES Taliyah's burst in many cases. Right now Taliyah must place E pre-emptively. This will not always hit. With W > E in the cases where you aren't quite in range to land E but can reach with W, you will actually be doing more damage after this change because the first hit is now guaranteed to land. With this said, I'm not against removing the lockout from W. Instead, I believe that E > W combo should retain its current damage while the W > E combo will do a flat percentage less, around 50% damage reduction on any boulders they are batted through. This will decrease the total potential damage by about a third (or 40% if you don't count the explosion damage at the end). This can be coded as a status effect that reduces knockthrough boulder damage by half when W is used without E placed. Though this makes Taliyah more complicated, it allows a meaningful distinction between the two attack patterns. You can either blindside them with less damage or you can place an obvious zone for more potential damage (which is what Taliyah was designed to do in the first place). Without distinguishing the two cases it's going to be incredibly difficult to find a fair amount of damage for Taliyah's E. It's also needlessly harming Taliyah's ability to zone dashes with E, even if that is unrelated to the Seimic Shove combo. I'm really, really worried for Taliyah if this change makes it through. Support for this change comes from people who do not play Taliyah or realize her current potential. I'm not against making her kit fluid, but this change simply pushes her over the edge and the only way to balance it out is going to be nerf after nerf after nerf once people catch on. **Please, please, please separate W > E from E > W and E. The easy burst combo should be meaningfully weaker while the old choreographed combo should remain the same.** Don't blindly support the suggested change just because you tried Taliyah once and found her unwieldy. She is already usable. Making her more usable for more people is wonderful, but this change will be so bad for the game. You are going to step into a Taliyah mid lane, immediately die, then start crying for nerfs. I've already beaten the point to death, but please don't allow this champion to be broken just because you gave up on her. **tl;dr Please do not let this change go through unchecked. This completely changes Taliyah into a simplistic burst-mage and actually increases her total burst in many cases. Taliyah will become more popular and inevitably get nerfed because her damage is already bonkers. A 10% reduction per boulder isn't nearly enough to compensate for how much easier W > E is to land compared to E > W, and in some cases her damage is actually increased by the change. With E > W you would often throw down E even when it wasn't in range, making you miss out on 1 of 6 damage instances. With W > E you will always get the first hit, thus increasing your damage in cases where E would have otherwise missed. This change will break Taliyah because the huge wall of rocks that typically warns Taliyah's opponent will no longer be there. A more sensible solution is to allow W > E but make W reduce the boulder passthrough damage if you use it before E. With this, E > W (or just E) will retain the same damage while W > E will provide an easier but weaker alternative. This allows Taliyah to retain her heavy zoning playstyle rather than forcing her into becoming the burst mage that everyone who tossed her aside expects her to be.**
Hi Mac2492! I think a lot of your concerns and worries in here are spot on. Particularly this bit is almost verbatim what I said myself when this was first suggested: > Right now she requires careful positioning to poke with Q. You drop an E to zone and/or setup for a kill combo. If they don't run, you W them into the boulders and make them regret it. After this change, Taliyah will just stand somewhere without Worked Ground and focus on landing a single Seismic Shove to get the rest of her kit for free. Most of the intricate strategy involved in using Taliyah has gone out the window. While saying that all strategy has gone out of the window is a little exaggerated, you are right in that the tactical complexity of pre-placing E was a very useful limiter on Taliyah's top potential. Before I go on I should give you full context: the change described in the OP has been locked in as of last Friday; we are 100% shipping this in 6.14. I know this must be a disappointment as you sought to change our minds with your well-argued post, but let's instead talk about what we will do going forward. First of all, I'll re-state the very obvious reasons why we pulled the trigger on this change: * Taliyah's play rate is very low for a champion this new * Her mastery curve is the steepest in the game * Anecdotally players struggled with the lockout without understanding the exact rules around it and why it was necessary for game health. All they felt is that the champion didn't let them do what they wanted to do, so they stopped playing her. Now not every champion needs to be a new Lee Sin or Thresh in terms of popularity, but we feel we should at least make champions that a reasonable segment (mid-lane players, control mage players, etc) of our playerbase can enjoy playing. All our data suggest that this wasn't the case for Taliyah. We needed to do something to make her more fun to play as, and the W lockout was the obvious candidate. Not everything you said originally must necessarily come to pass, though. I had the same concerns as you, as I said, but I've been convinced that they're not 100% accurate. Yes, the scenario you describe where Taliyah players fish for a W and then sink all the rest of their kit into the enemy with little to no room for counterplay is plausible, but I don't think it'll be the only or even the dominant play pattern. There's a couple of reasons: * W will still be maxed last and as such have a much higher cooldown than the rest of her kit. We're also adding 4s to W's CD at rank 5, so you will almost always have E much more frequently than W. * W is pretty dodgeable. If the pattern you describe becomes too dominant, we can further tune W dodgeability. Our data suggest that Taliyah players land around 40% of their W casts on enemy champions; this includes farming casts. * E's slow field makes W hits more reliable. If Taliyah can ever afford it, she will want to throw out E first to guarantee the W hit. So yes, we will see a lot more fishing Ws into complete deletion of the enemy in that this wasn't really possible before, but our hope is that this isn't the only thing you will see. Now for your suggestion to make the W->E combo specifically weaker. I like this a lot and have been thinking along similar lines, but for now I want to stay away from, as you correctly pointed out, adding further complexity to Taliyah. While we're not going to attack this right now, one somewhat cleaner way we could do this would be with a prime time similar to Gragas Q: Taliyah's E could, say, only do its full live damage after it's been on the ground for 1s. That way if you cast E first and then W you'd get more damage from the combo. It would also reward smart setup to deny enemy dashes over reactive casts while enemies are already dashing. Again, in theory I like this idea, but the E is already plenty complex. We'll watch 6.14 and see if further changes are necessary. If so, this is one of many candidates.
: Thank you very much for listening regarding these changes. Sometimes how a champion feels when playing is worth getting a numbers hit. Although I was personally fine with how she is now, I know a lot of people are happy. I had one question regarding Taliyah and how she feels, especially since she is likely to receive some nerfs with this change. Her q on worked ground feels pretty bad to use as well. I know it is suppose to be weaker in all cases, which is fine, but using it make me feel like I'm just locking out my ability to use a good q early game. Have you considered a partial cooldown refund for her worked q? I might be alone on this one, but it's just a thought to entertain.
I'd love to address worked ground Qs but CD refunding would make the ability stronger. We don't have room for buffs on her kit at the moment, and like you said it does need to be clearly weaker than the fresh ground version. Obviously it would still be weaker, but the distinction would be less clear.
: The one thing I'd request, is to increase her Q cooldown, but if Taliyah uses Q on Worked Ground the CD is shortened
I think I'd want to do the opposite: leave her CD the same between worked and non-worked ground, but reduce the remaining duration of the worked ground she's standing on if she uses the worked ground Q. Again, that's a buff and we don't really have room for buffs atm.
: Can you please reduce the worked ground time? I mean while yeah its pretty unique and good to have a 180 sec booster on the ground, but the radius is just too big. In mid lane, you sometimes can't keep up with the change of positioning due to her worked ground. TBH, i'd say bring it down by changing the radius and increasing the speed given in that radius, or change the time that it stays for. My suggestion is around 60 sec. now that is more than enough to have a great amount of MS in. NOTICE ME ZENON! pls...
It's 140 seconds--we already buffed this shortly after her launch. I don't think we can afford to pump more power into her. Like I said, she's already too strong in many ways.
: Given that the bracket of experience which currently has the highest winrate is the 15-50 one, I suspect that doesn't really actually matter for the discussion at hand.
Well her win rate continues climbing afterwards. That's where the small sample size comes in. I'd be very confused if a champion had a super steep early win rate and then after 50 games started dropping. For what it's worth, we're using 30 games as "experienced" winrate and we're not looking much at data beyond that.
: > [{quoted}](name=ZenonTheStoic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1bunGEHs,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T19:57:40.621+0000) > > Burst is great on some midlaners! Let's make sure we're speaking the same language, though. We recently identified a clearer breakdown of what roles exist in league of legends. There's a big difference between a Battle Mage (like Karthus, Swain, Ryze), a Burst Mage (like Veigar, Syndra, Annie) and a Disruptor (Orianna, Anivia, Zyra). I believe Taliyah is a Disruptor and so shouldn't have the burst profile of Annie, for instance. > > Here's my analysis of why I think she's a Disruptor: > > Her Q is a moving no-go zone: a rectangle extending out from her current position defines a zone in which you'll take a bunch of damage. You have to side step it, meaning she's denying you that zone. > > Her W has a noticeable delay (nearly a second) during which you must get out of the circle / can't step into the circle. Again, she's forcing positioning on you. > > Her E finally is the most classic zoning spell on her kit. It's a large area where you're slowed (reason #1 not to be in it), where you can be tossed into mines for further damage (reason #2 not to be in it), and finally the zone explodes after 4s dealing damage again (reason #3 not to be in it). > > You've already mentioned that her R is a great zoning tool (by literally not allowing you to walk across it). > > Does all that make sense? It makes sense, yes. However, I worry that if her damage is hit too hard, she would drop from being a Midlaner pick to being a primary support pick.
I don't think there's any risk of that. Currently she's picked most often and played most successfully in mid lane *by far*. I don't think there's a question of changing her damage so extremely that this would no longer be true. As a support she doesn't bring enough *reliable* peel either--her W is easy to dodge and her E easy enough to side step. It's definitely something we're watching though.
InTheory (EUW)
: ***
Correct! Sorry, I should have said. Editing OP now.
: > [{quoted}](name=ZenonTheStoic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1bunGEHs,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-07-02T19:22:06.041+0000) > > This is quite likely. We wanted to keep this changelist as simple as possible, but we're already looking at Q mana and W CD. I'm glad you're finally getting rid of that delay. Taliyah was a bit of a chore to play because of her own kit working so hard against her, so at least we have this to make things smoother. However, I don't understand this aversion to burst on a Midlaner, because quite frankly, her zoning is pretty minimal outside of her ult. I understand you're trying to avoid a broken on release champ like Kalista or Yasuo, but Taliyah honestly just feels like her kit was designed to hinder her almost as much it helps her.
Burst is great on some midlaners! Let's make sure we're speaking the same language, though. We recently identified a clearer breakdown of what roles exist in league of legends. There's a big difference between a Battle Mage (like Karthus, Swain, Ryze), a Burst Mage (like Veigar, Syndra, Annie) and a Disruptor (Orianna, Anivia, Zyra). I believe Taliyah is a Disruptor and so shouldn't have the burst profile of Annie, for instance. Here's my analysis of why I think she's a Disruptor: Her Q is a moving no-go zone: a rectangle extending out from her current position defines a zone in which you'll take a bunch of damage. You have to side step it, meaning she's denying you that zone. Her W has a noticeable delay (nearly a second) during which you must get out of the circle / can't step into the circle. Again, she's forcing positioning on you. Her E finally is the most classic zoning spell on her kit. It's a large area where you're slowed (reason #1 not to be in it), where you can be tossed into mines for further damage (reason #2 not to be in it), and finally the zone explodes after 4s dealing damage again (reason #3 not to be in it). You've already mentioned that her R is a great zoning tool (by literally not allowing you to walk across it). Does all that make sense?
: http://imgur.com/3x4O6qU
Note that champion.gg's data becomes *very* spotty above 50 games played. Their sample size must be very small (for good reason--there aren't many people that have played more than 50 games of Taliyah)
: Nerfing the champion with less then 36% winrates? damn dood good thing I never forged a contract with Taliyah ;^) bullet dodged
She's at 53% winrate.
Show more

ZenonTheStoic

Level 81 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion