: 10 thoughts going into Finals -- "Pobelter's 200 IQ is twice as good as 100T, so this may be a case of brains over brawn."
If Doublelift performs at the level he's been at so far in the playoffs, Liquid will win. If he doesn't, Liquid will most likely lose. Honestly, unless someone else plays out of their minds or 100T pulls out some truly bonkers strats, Doublelift's performance is likely THE one and only deciding factor to the series. And, as a 100T fan and someone who hopes that they win, I can honestly say I'll be happy either way. I think either team will be better representation at MSI than any other NA team by a wide margin, and, truthfully, Doublelift has been playing like he deserves the win.
: Is there a way for the public to find out how many lifetime reports we have against us?
That information would be relevant to my interests.
: I like Karma's new lore, it sets up interesting future stories. She retreats from the front lines after she obliterated the Noxian ship because she feared her lost of connection with her past lives, she is tangled between the need to fight back and tradition she and the new Irelia are 2 sides of the same coin. From here we get to see Karma develop into and beyond what the old Karma stood for or possibly go an entirely different route of peace and non violence. I would love to see her become someone, instead of relying solely on the wisdom of her past lives, someone capable of rallying and enlightening her past lives, working together to find a blend of peace and resistance to outside forces. Imagine an Karma ingame, having a different spirit work with her and encourage based on the abilities she casts/ upgrades.
"Sets up interesting future stories" Implying Riot ever tells future stories after a retcon. There will just be another retcon.
: Karmas new lore is a mess
Ah, I remember when I tried to fight this fight something like... 5 years ago? Whenever the first major lore retcon was. Riot doesn't expand their lore, they rewrite it. Which makes a lot of things not make sense. Its why I, LONG AGO, stopped being interested in Riot's lore. Sure, sometimes what they come up with is pretty good, but it'll be different in a year or two so what's the point of being invested in it?
Snowic (NA)
: You hate a team just because they did really well the past 2 years? Wow that's pretty spiteful, but okay. They have a completely new roster and are still working things out. I swear it's people like you that come on TSM reddit and try to insult or make fun of the fans and the team when we don't do well. It's just rude.
When did I say that I hate TSM? I don't know that I ever did. I do enjoy watching them lose out on the possibility of going to an international tournament, but that is because TSM has an utterly awful international win rate historically over the course of a huge number of tournaments. As a person that wants NA well represented, I am tired of TSM making it to international competitions and being just awful. I also hate that TSM finished in 3rd place yet, somehow, they are the 'favorites to win it all' even though that makes literally no sense. If any other team in NA had placed third while looking rather strong they wouldn't be talked about as the favorite to win it all. That was, 100%, TSM bias. Hell, before the EF v Liquid game yesterday they spent more time talking about TSM (when TSM is both out and hadn't played Liquid in the quarters) than they spent talking about C9 which would have at least made sense as a measuring stick of Liquid. Finally... Did really well the past 2 years? Really? Winning region and then taking a metaphorical deuce at Worlds and MSI is NOT what I would call doing really well. That is, in fact, objectively awful. Being a regional champion means absolutely nothing. I am willing to bet there are quite a few organizations that would trade ALL of their regional titles for ONE Worlds win. And that teams like Samsung that have about as many Worlds titles as Regional titles, don't really care all that much that they weren't Korean champs last year because World champs sounds a hell of a lot better. No team in NA has 'done really well the past 2 years'. I'm just happy to have new teams to be hopeful for before they, almost invariably, let me down as well.
: > About as disingenuous as saying saying that its odd that there is no fanfare around Cody Sun when Riot is the organization that builds nearly all of the fanfare around everything. Not sure if you're aware, but in your rambling you just called yourself disingenuous. Maybe proof read something like this before posting?
WarWren (NA)
: Do you read your comments before posting them?
Yup. Apparently comments based in facts and not hype aren't appreciated though. Which doesn't surprise me at all given how people were so hyped that TSM was obviously gonna win it all and then TSM proceeds to get eviscerated by CG.
: 6 thoughts going into Semifinals -- "The winner of this split will become the… 4th franchise to win a championship? By god, that’s Team Liquid’s music. "
Here we go again... 1. Riot builds something like 90% of all fanfare because Riot represents the overwhelming majority of the article views and 100% of the broadcasts of the games. So, if Cody Sun isn't getting enough fanfare that is exactly an issue with Riot. Maybe, given that his stats warranted being on the All NA LCS First Team, Riot should have given him an OP Five even once? (God forbid the something like 4-5 times he had the stats to warrant it.) 2. "Wouldn't normally include teams that were eliminated." C9 and TSM get eliminated. Includes C9 and TSM for some reason. I wonder why... 3. Talks up Huni, ignores that Huni has more deaths than anyone but Contractz this split, and has looked bad for large sections of the back half of the split. Yeah, when Huni is playing carry champions he looks basically untouchable, but lets not pretend that Huni on tanks has the same level of influence on the game. And almost all picks top lane haven't been carries since 8.4 went live which doesn't scream good things for Huni. 4. 'Pobelter can show that NA mids still have some life'... Pobelter has, honestly, mediocre stats from mid lane. He is just objectively worse than Febiven and Fenix, and only moderately better stats than Ryu. If I'm looking for midlane plays, I'll be looking to Fenix and Febiven, thanks. 5. Super interesting that TSM gets smashed out of the playoffs and that suddenly no one is the favorite. Not the 1st Place team (which would make sense), not the team that smashed the old favorite (which would make sense), not Liquid while Doublelift has been playing like he wants to win it all (which would also make sense). So, when the playoffs are statistically the most competitive they've ever been TSM is the favorite because its TSM and they've looked good (although they didn't look best in the back half), but when TSM is out then no one is favorite? That feels... weird. About as disingenuous as saying saying that its odd that there is no fanfare around Cody Sun when Riot is the organization that builds nearly all of the fanfare around everything.
: That seems more like a bandwagon imo lol.
100T went 9-1 in the back half of the split. (TSM, by comparison, went 9-2 and was hyped as THE favorite.) No other team played as well in the back half, period. IF I were to ranked teams based on their recent performances (before any playoff games were played), I'd likely have said: 100T, TSM, TL, EF, C9, CG. Honestly, I thought that CG stood a chance against TSM more because they went 2-1 against TSM in the regular season (when you include the tiebreaker), but I didn't think they stood a good one. I was legitimately surprised that they beat TSM (although, admittedly, happily surprised), but I didn't at all think it was impossible because Zven and Mithy have proven to be choke artists on more than one occasion, Hauntzer has lost 100% of games when he trash talked on twitter this split (seriously, look it up, that's a thing), and Bjergsen has either carried or just looked bad this split with very little between. Which is about what happened against Clutch. Honestly, if a team manages to earn first place through going 9-1 in the back half of a split its just nonsense to say that anyone else is a favorite when they just weren't as good in the same period of time. The ONLY way to say that things should be different is 100% using history as a way to try and judge results instead of how the game is being played RIGHT NOW. Now, I do think that CG is probably the dark horse of the playoffs right now, but I would also say that 100T (who should have been the favorite from the start using the same metric that was supposed to be why TSM was the favorite) is the favorite. Which is why I think the semifinal between 100T and CG should be a better series than the games between EF and TL. Because if EF actually shows up, they should win, but EF has barely shown up in the back half of the split, so I think it will likely be a messy series decided by who goes off harder: Huni or Doublelift.
: Well, perhaps they were the favorite because they probably had the best last 3 or 4 weeks of any team, and also, they are TSM, but frankly, the whole split was pretty wide open, so I don't think this is necessarily a huge shock. As a TSM fan I am a little sad, but realistically, they were going to not make Finals at some point. Spring is the better time for it to happen. I understand why people want to see another team at Worlds. Overall, I think the NA scene is continuing to get better but probably still quite a bit behind the top Eastern Regions.
"Best last 3-4 weeks of any team" when in the past 3-4 weeks 100T lost fewer games than TSM WHILE ALSO BEATING TSM IN A DIRECT HEAD-TO-HEAD GAME. So they were literally NOT the 'best last 3-4 weeks of any team'. Good lord, people just love the 'TSM is the best' narrative even when it is just objectively not true.
426287 (NA)
: Just because they lost doesnt mean they werent the favorite all of a sudden? Being a favorite has nothing to do with results lol.
Anyone with half a brain would say that 100T was a better choice for a favorite team going into playoffs; what with having a better overall record, doing better than TSM did in the back half of the split (which was, hypothetically, the whole reason TSM was the favorite in the first place), and decided to ignore that TSM's historical performances mean nothing to their present day performances. So, in a way, I guess you were right. Team performances apparently did have nothing to do with which team Riot was trying to push as the favorite.
: 6 thoughts going into Playoffs -- "I like C9 fans because their response to their team’s collapse last week was to simply say, 'Same.'"
Riot: TSM is the favorite to win it all! Hakuho: O, rly? Me: Didn't I say that TSM was being wildly overhyped? I am pretty sure I said TSM was being wildly overhyped.
: finally, another team gets to play msi
Honestly, that was my thought. TSM has pretty constantly crashed and burned internationally. When CLG won the spring split two years ago and went to MSI they put up one of the best international performances than any NA team has given. I'm hoping that whoever NA sends this year (think it will be 100T or Liquid, tbh) does better than TSM does at pretty much any international tournament since TSM really is FREESM internationally.
Rioter Comments
: Cannon Minion changes targeted for 8.7
I have to say, I think this is a bad change from a game health perspective. In any given wave (from game start), cannon minions are worth ~36% of the waves' value. At max value, they are worth ~46% of a waves' value. This creates a situation in which a person could **miss** 4/7 of a cannon wave at game start and earn nearly as much value as a person that **hits** 6/7 but misses the cannon. Honestly, that creates a situation in laning in which a champion with a range advantage gains an even larger advantage than previously because it makes it very easy for them to discern the minion that they want to deny if they can because those values are vastly larger than they are on live. Which, honestly, makes top lane an even bigger nightmare lane, is a massive indirect buff to Targon's users (and people laning with them), and makes lane bullies (like Caitlyn) even more powerful. Now, I suppose those might be EXACTLY the intended results, but those results are going to make a lot of champions that already feel kind of bad feel even worse. So, unless something is gonna be done to buff a whole lot of champions that feel pretty darn bad to play already this is likely to push a large part of the roster even further out of the meta.
Nipsahoy (NA)
: You need to seriously chill out. You are a rude obnoxious twat.
If a site like ESPN did this, they would have had it fixed within the day. Likely, they would have had it fixed within the hour that they were informed of the mistake. In fact, I am fairly certain that pretty much any site that did significant amounts of sports reporting wouldn't allow this to stand for 24 hours; god forbid the ~96 hours Riot has allowed this glaring mistake to stand.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lady FrostIron,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=0iA8uPrn,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-20T17:48:02.243+0000) > > Like a Sejuani Ult; you missed the point. If you go to the teams and standings and move to the playoff tab, it has 100 Thieves in the 2ND PLACE, and Echo Fox in 1ST PLACE for the bracket. Oh snap - we pinged our web folks to fix it. Re my response, we are having some discussions with teams about playoff changes for summer (which days teams play, which seeds play which, etc), and I clearly got a little out over my skis.
We are now pushing in on 36 hours since your reply (and roughly 72 hour since the mistake was made and first pointed out to Riot) and this STILL isn't fixed. The lack of respect being shown to the organization that finished first between articles saying that the team that earned first isn't the favorite to win, leaving an obvious (and easy to fix) mistake around for DAYS, and ignoring the literally dozens of posts/comments/threads on this issue is just disturbing. I'd say I am disappointed, but at this point I don't think that I should ever expect professionalism from the esports branch of Riot. At least then I'll be happily surprised when someone shows some instead of disappointed that it seems to be perennially absent. Riot is a major corporation that runs a professional sport. **ACT LIKE IT.**
Nefas (NA)
: She’s also playing a poke game with different rules than a lot of her competitors. She should have early game draw backs for having undodgeable poke in the early game.
Lux poke is fairly easy to dodge given how slow both her Q and E move. I suppose if you are used to using your minions for cover she definitely messes with that playstyle, but her spells are EASY to dodge.
: That one game vs 100T was pretty much entirely because of the brilliant poppy pick by 100T to completely shut down TSM's team comp. Giving credit where credit is due, this is 100% to 100T's credit. But in a Bo5 things like that can be addressed and adjusted in the next game's pick ban so it is hard to say which team is stronger in a full series. Thus, it is probably the safer bet to go with the more experienced players (Zven Mithy 4 straight EU finals, Bjerg Hauntzer 4 straight NA finals). You can't say someone has TSM bias because of that.
So, the credit is to 100T for winning pick/ban hard and then executing on that won pick/ban, but for some reason think they are incapable of doing that again when they have done that for more or less the entire back half of the split? That's... interesting... And, sure, they won. Zven and Mithy won because they were on the best team in a weak region. They had very little competition that didn't come directly from any source other than Fnatic, and even then only when Rekkles was on form. TSM has won as much as it has, honestly, because C9 are choke artists, CLG his wildly inconsistent, and who else was really competing in NA for the past two years or so? Immortals? They choked hard than C9, and that's saying something. Also... fun stat time: Aphromoo has never failed to get a team to finals if they made playoffs. Meteos has never lost a final when he made finals. I'll take a history of 100% ratios over a history as hit and miss as TSM's.
: I Was Hoping Franchising Would Bring Change
I am by no means a TSM fan, but they went 7-2 in the back half (9-2 when you include tiebreaks) and earned their third place spot. I don't think they'll win it, but what? Regi is bribing teams to lose so that TSM wins? What's your logic here? Conversely, EF crapped the bed in the back half of the split (3-6 I believe) and only got the bye because they went 8-1 in the front half of the split. If the split had continued on for another round robin, honestly, I don't know that EF would have gotten a bye and they might not have even made playoffs.
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: Last week someone accused me of having CLG favoritism (and being anti-TSM). :P Meteos hasn't won a title in four years, and Aphromoo has been two years. I agree that they have experience and that they look really good right now, and if you want to peg them as your favorite, then that's totally respectable. I'm just not betting against TSM given their recent form and their recent history.
How about 100 Thieves recent history of beating TSM in a game in which they never really lost the lead and TSM (at least once that I can think of) got flustered enough that they actively threw while also already losing? That Mithy/Bjergsen feed moment was exactly what desperate looks like. Or maybe talk about how 100T lost 1 game in the back half of the split while TSM lost 2 (including one to 100T). Or maybe reference that, in games in which TSM doesn't get Syndra or Gangplank this split, they are something like 4-7. And, if you are gonna reference all the 'history' that Bjergsen and crew have, maybe reference that TSM has lost 4 times in that history and 100% of those loses were delivered by teams led by Aphromoo or Meteos. Or that MikeYeung has less playoff experience than almost anyone else in all of the NA playoffs? Given their recent form and recent history, they have managed to beat almost everything they've come across... Except for the team currently sitting in 1st Place; which is a team that has also had better recent form and recent history.
: 6 thoughts going into Playoffs -- "I like C9 fans because their response to their team’s collapse last week was to simply say, 'Same.'"
Ya know I am getting pretty tired of the blatant TSM favoritism. TSM has looked good in the back half of the split. But the first place team in the League right now handed TSM one of their few defeats and has looked almost invincible in the back half of the split. And its not like Meteos and Moo lack any experience at beating TSM in finals, given that both played for teams that have done just that.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lady FrostIron,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=0iA8uPrn,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-20T17:48:02.243+0000) > > Like a Sejuani Ult; you missed the point. If you go to the teams and standings and move to the playoff tab, it has 100 Thieves in the 2ND PLACE, and Echo Fox in 1ST PLACE for the bracket. Oh snap - we pinged our web folks to fix it. Re my response, we are having some discussions with teams about playoff changes for summer (which days teams play, which seeds play which, etc), and I clearly got a little out over my skis.
23 hours and counting and it is STILL WRONG. Seriously, I know enough about web design to know that this fix is NOT complicated, there is NO EXCUSE for this kind of mistake to last this long.
: > [{quoted}](name=Lady FrostIron,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=0iA8uPrn,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-20T17:48:02.243+0000) > > Like a Sejuani Ult; you missed the point. If you go to the teams and standings and move to the playoff tab, it has 100 Thieves in the 2ND PLACE, and Echo Fox in 1ST PLACE for the bracket. Oh snap - we pinged our web folks to fix it. Re my response, we are having some discussions with teams about playoff changes for summer (which days teams play, which seeds play which, etc), and I clearly got a little out over my skis.
Also, at this point, its been 9 hours since you made this comment and IT STILL ISN'T FIXED. Honestly, this utterly unacceptable. I can't imagine literally any other professional sport where this sort of error would be maintained for this length of time; especially if it has any impact AT ALL on the days that the teams are playing because that has a direct impact on people who purchased tickets thinking they would see one team and wind up seeing another. Its even more unacceptable when I know that there was a Reddit thread posted on Monday morning that reached frontpage of r/LoL, that multiple tweets have been sent to @lolesports about this issue, and that Nadeshot has commented on it as well. It makes me wonder if Echo Fox is favored over 100 Thieves behind the scenes for some reason or another (perhaps because Rick Fox was the only owner who didn't come out in favor of franchising when the rest of the owners did?); which is not something that Riot really wants people to be wondering about.
: Someone at Riot is super salty that 100 Thieves won 1st seed and not Echo Fox.{{sticker:sg-lux-2}}
Right? Something smells fishy to me.
: Or maybe he was just extremely overpowered in general? You didn't correlate Morde's brokenness with 'replacing an adc', so it did not prove your point.
You want correlation? Okay. In Season 5 Morde was worth using to replace an ADC. This was, honestly, in spite of often losing lanes, not scaling as well as an ADC, being easy to kite, and often creating a skewed damage profile for his team by pushing things pretty heavily toward magic damage. The reason that he was picked was because securing first dragon with Morde made it easy for Morde to use that dragon to push through at least one tower because the dragon was a massive tank and he allowed his support to hit level 6 faster giving an advantage in early fights (not poke) bot lane which meant that it was easy to secure that first dragon. These particular advantages often meant that Morde's weaknesses weren't as important as his strengths because it made it easy for his team to snowball a very fast victory. All of this brokeness could only be placed bot lane (because he lost two abilities at the time in a solo lane), and it made no sense to replace a support with Morde because the ADC wouldn't be able to get meaningful farm which kind of invalidates the point of the class. In short, Morde was bonkers and replacing an ADC when he saw play and he was QUICKLY nerfed into oblivion. MEANWHILE, in mid, top, and jungle it has been fine for say, assassins or tanks or bruisers or juggernauts to be more or less irrelevant for literally months and months of patch notes. Often these roles are made largely inferior because of a specific champion or small group of champions. Yet, for months and months, those champions are allowed to remain more or less unchanged while pushing out an entire class of opposition. If that isn't a correlative favoring of ADCs I don't know what is.
: finding out how to play a champion always takes longer than to find counterplay, so release 52% wr is never fine.
Which is also why releasing at a >48% winrate isn't fine either. Because that number is likely to only go down.
: or because Morde was toxic by forcing down a mid turret and more if he got Dragon...
And Morde had to be THAT powerful and that toxic to replace an ADC. Once again, proving my point.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Zhugan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K3wekEe4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-19T23:50:59.163+0000) > > Riot has, for years, favored a meta around 100% guaranteeing that someone on a team plays an ADC. > > Honestly, at this point, I don't see how people are surprised that remains to be true. Except for that one time in Season 5 when morde was perma-banned.
And Morde was nerfed into oblivion for committing the sin of replacing an ADC. That actually kind proves my point, tbh.
makkii (NA)
: I mean I hate adc as much as the next guy but they are nerfing shiv soon, and nerfing adcs across the board in mid season patch. Both have been confirmed
So nerf a bunch of stuff like Tabi's, Duskblade, etc that exist to counter ADCs and then nerf ADCs? Honestly, I'll believe that they have meaningful nerfs coming to ADCs when I see them and they last for more than a patch or two. (Cause a whole lot of ADC nerfs have come through in recent patches with compensation buffs in literally the next patch.)
VØIÐ (EUW)
: I agree strongly, but I feel like {{champion:64}} is quite an exception in this. Who has; * Still a decent amount of mobility (With W, even after the sightstone removal) * High burst damage (if done right) * Fairly short cooldowns (no higher than 14 seconds) * Good utility (With W) * Good CC/Slow (R and E)
Eh, Lee Sin has a resource to manage and its easy for a bad Lee Sin to wind up with no energy because they don't make use of their passive at all. I also think that energy champions tend to be either way too strong or laughably weak, but they suffer from slightly different issues than someone like Garen/Morde/Yasuo do in terms of balance because most energy champions can easily run into energy problems if they aren't judicious with their energy refresh abilities.
: Everyone Lagging
Don't play ranked, but same issue here. Couple of times it seemed to hit basically everyone at once, a few times it seemed to come down super hard on just a few players.
Tharosyl (EUW)
: Can someone explain why duskblade is getting a nerf but IE and Shiv aren't?
Riot has, for years, favored a meta around 100% guaranteeing that someone on a team plays an ADC. Honestly, at this point, I don't see how people are surprised that remains to be true.
xelaker (NA)
: Know the ins and outs of a champ before you bring them into ranked play
Going all the way back to Season 2 several of my standout performances on champions were the first time I played them. I still have happy dreams about the first time I played J4 (shortly after his release ages ago), and went 14/4/16 in a ranked game and carried my team to victory. Now, I don't really play ranked anymore (too toxic for my blood), but I don't see how that would be any less true now than it was then.
: Questions about the S rank system
From what I can tell, honestly, you died to much. Also, assists and farm play a pretty big role in getting an S rank. As an aside, I think the line that they have between A+ and S- is pretty weird. I've seen quite a few scores that fell into A+ that, in prior games, would have been S- or S.
: NA LCS Stats Breakdown Week 9
This is all well and good, but why is 100 Thieves scheduled to play Saturday on the website for their semifinal? That flies in the face of years of tradition of first place teams playing on Sunday. (They are also, currently, in the second place bracket for some reason.) Seriously, that needs fixed ASAP.
Imgartn (EUW)
: Please give Master Yi's Meditate CC Immunity (with stats adjustment)
Yi isn't even really an assassin, no matter how he might be marked in client. He is SUPPOSED to be a melee carry, but such a thing doesn't really exist in this game cause why do something from 150 range when you can do it from 500+? Also, CC immunity on meditate would be broken as all hell, so no. That's a VERY bad idea.
: The Single Design Choice That Makes Me Step Away From League Every Once In A While
Almost all manaless champions are gated by other issues. Honestly, most manaless champions are paying a cost somewhere else in their kit (longer cooldowns, health costs, abilities that are relatively weak, etc) to balance out the lack of a mana/energy resource to manage. Yasuo sticks out as a noteworthy exception to a lot of that, but that's a whole other issue. Now, that isn't to say that Riot balances manaless champions well. They, to put it bluntly, don't. But that doesn't mean that they are inherently broken. Especially since most champions with mana eventually reach a point that mana is more of a decorative resource and less of something that actually needs managed.
oskrtt (NA)
: Nice matchmaking rito
Ranked MMR and normals MMR are two separate things, and normal MMR isn't really trackable.
  Rioter Comments
Zepper (NA)
: Can't the Boards show player ranks because it feels awful seeing you talk to people arguing balance yet he's Gold 5.
Rank has nothing to do with ability to understand game balance. I could link you to quite a few videos of pros making dumb statements and of bronzies pointing out issues shortly before they exploded into meta defining problems. Also, what percent of the riot in game content release teams is rated diamond I or higher? Until 100% of them are rated that way Riot obviously doesn't subscribe to your flawed logic either.
: banner of command is literally the same it has been for years. its not the item that defines the meta. its the buffed baron. banner just absuses how dumb baron buff is after riot changed it for pro play and literally only for pro play. because solo que teams were regularly contesting baron already, and solo que games even into the highest ratings didnt last too long. they also buffed cannon minions in the same patch by fixing a bug that caused them not to deal enough damage. of course this means a baron buffed cannon minion is dealing even more damage, which gets buffed up a third time by a banner. if we removed banner from this game, baron buff would still be broken.
Banner is what makes the minions almost utterly unkillable, and it also gives them (on the low end) +50 damage. Cannon minions specifically get +100 damage. Baron buff damage for cannon minions is obviously problematic as well, but baron minions are killable by anyone. 'Banon' minions are killable by ADCs or people using minion dematerializer. That is, frankly, just too much.
TakaDama (NA)
: No love for the original duo top Black Cleaver meta? Or how about that Ionia vs Noxus thing where Guardsman Bob abused Innervating Locket on Udyr? Or how every gold per second item was removed outside of our current support items? Just giving ya some more examples to work with.
Oh, there were just too many to list, to be honest. I tried to just stick with the most obscene offenders.
PB4UAME (NA)
: Ardent was 100% of the time the rush item for both teams. This is a win-more item. Not anything else. So of course the team that is ahead and securing Barons is going to be the only team to build it-- it does almost fuckall defensively. Guess what, that team is also already more likely to win before any of those things happen, due to autocorrelation of the whole chain of events. So if they execute the full chain, and get BoC + a Baron push or two, it makes sense that they would win.
Bad logic, my friend. No team is going to go into the game assuming they will lose, or, at least, no team should. Which means BoC will dictate team comps and likely rune builds. On top of that, even if a team is behind, stealing/sneaking baron while already having a BoC built increases the odds of that team making a comeback. Hell, even today there was a more or less even game in NA where a team managed to use decent macroplay to get Baron (again, in a game that neither team had a lead and both had BoC) and use it to break open something like a 3.5k gold lead. By your logic, they shouldn't have had BoC because they shouldn't have necessarily expected to get Baron without any significant contest. Baron was also stolen, that I am aware of, at LEAST 4 times this weekend in just NA and EU and if you didn't build a Banner because you thought that wouldn't happen you likely robbed yourself of at least one turret, possibly as much as a turret and an inhib. So, again, one item having that much of an impact on the meta is just not healthy and it is exactly the same thing as Ardent. You should see it on both teams 100% of the time when it is both a win harder mechanic AND a comeback harder mechanic. I saw, AT LEAST 2 champions have to run away from 'Banon' minions today because they were hitting them so hard in a fight. I mean, just think how hard those autos are from a minion that it can kill a tower in 8 shots. Most ADCs, mids, and supports aren't gonna be able to tank that and champions still call for help from minions, even giant, magic immune, purple minions.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=RiotRepertoir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G8oRAA4d,comment-id=00060003000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-05T04:56:36.759+0000) > > I didn&#x27;t say it isn&#x27;t having a significant effect. I said it hasn&#x27;t proven to be mandatory. > > Banner is an effect that helps teams secure a win. It would make sense that the winning team would be more likely to have one, because the team that is ahead is more likely to get baron, and banner is better with baron. There isn&#x27;t reason that didn&#x27;t exist in 8.3 that exists in 8.4 to pick Banner as a team that can&#x27;t get Baron. Even if it is determined banner is an unhealthy item for long term in the game I think its important for players understand how banner has evolved and understand how banner really works. Banner if currently being used for a high chance win win situation for the team that gets baron. If one team gets ahead, or believe they can secure baron by superior objective control or mid game teamfighting, they will get banner. However if a team was planning on it but didnt get a lead, sometimes they will just sit on aegis and build a more teamfight item to boost the odds of actually getting baron. Some teams were able to get baron and break base regardless of banner, and sometimes banner had a meaningful impact on its own in the game. While early regions went banner crazy, eventually players realized the minion dematerializer can just delete banner minions and a really strange game was being played during siege not really seen before. This lead to things like back and forth barons or multiple barons needed to be obtained for teams because either their strat got countered, their strat was too narrowminded, or they were playing a relatively similar game to what was happening before. This shows adaptation and brings to question the true impact of banner. At the end of the day, banner isn't an effective strategy in most elos because it requires coordination, one of the strongest power swings in the game, and the ability to execute the push with it. What is way more important is if it is decided as a low interaction, unhealthy, and unfun strategy and way to play league of legends at the top side, and if that is the case is the item need of adjustments, rework, removal etc. I hope people appreciate how much effort is put into understanding and comprehending the change and I wish the best for the balance team! <3 Love these posts keep it up!
Except banner was, I think, quite nearly undefeated across all regions when one team built it and the other didn't; including here in NA where it was undefeated in one sided match-ups. (I'm also pretty sure that relative number of banners was almost 100% predictive of which team would go on to win the game.) And the threat of an item dictating not just rune build but the specifics of rune use is FAR too much power for one item to have. I don't see how this isn't, essentially, the EXACT same issue as Ardent Censer again.
: > And how can you say that Banner isn't already having a significant effect when, in NA at least, in games that 1 team built Banner and 1 team didn't the team with Banner won 100% of those games? I didn't say it isn't having a significant effect. I said it hasn't proven to be mandatory. Banner is an effect that helps teams secure a win. It would make sense that the winning team would be more likely to have one, because the team that is ahead is more likely to get baron, and banner is better with baron. There isn't reason that didn't exist in 8.3 that exists in 8.4 to pick Banner as a team that can't get Baron.
Except that, even a losing team should build it because if they manage to get baron through a sneak or steal (which we saw quite a few of this weekend), Banner would allow them to push back harder and do more to even the game or even take the lead. So building it is still optimization of ability to win; especially if its built by a support or tank because both roles can make use of the stats that it offers. Which is exactly a reason to build it on 8.4 that didn't exist on 8.3 because the benefits of the 'Bannon' minions were far weaker in 8.3 and were far less likely to mean an equalization of gold. On top of that the most solvent counter that has been shown (minion dematerializer on 1+ champions) means that one item is fundamentally altering how people are doing builds on their rune pages already. And, while it works as a counter, it has a whole host of other effects. (Likely means someone is sacrificing a rune specifically to counter 1 item, they are forced to hold an item slot at the risk of banner being built because expending all their uses makes banner suddenly viable, etc.) Honestly, and I don't mean this with any harshness to you at all because there is a whole team of people there that do the work likely discussing a whole lot of things, but being slow to react to item changes like this is exactly what created the months and months and months of (most recently) the Ardent Censer meta and it blows my mind that items like this aren't balanced more like champions. (RE: nerfed out of existence and buffed back to a point of viability without being meta-defining all on their own) I probably wouldn't be so frustrated if I hadn't been around since Season 1, but I've seen single items define HUGE parts of the meta enough times to recognize when it is going to happen again. Especially the pro meta, which tends to be a lot more stable and risk averse than solo-Q.
Áery (NA)
: Banner isn't “mandatory” it’s just overturned with baron empowered minions, so of course pros are gonna use it to seige easier without taking any risks.
Its not mandatory for yolo-Q, but it is mandatory right now in pro play. Quite literally, in the very small number of games in which 1 team built at least 1 banner and the other team didn't build one the team that did build banner won 100% of the time in NA and EU. (I don't have info on other regions cause they tend to play when I am working or sleeping, and I don't have enough time to watch 50+ games a week.) Also, I didn't watch 100% of the games this weekend, but I am fairly certain number of banners built was almost perfectly predictive of which team would win and which team would lose. (I know of like one exemption of that rule.)
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Zhugan

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