Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: April 11
> We were testing one way of doing that until a couple of weeks ago with IE's passive being changed so it added armor pen to crits instead of increasing crit damage, though we didn't get enough confidence from testing that that was something we should ship in mid-season given it's a pretty major change. In that context Randuin's having crit reduction didn't make sense (if crits are for killing tankier targets reduced crit damage arguably belongs on an item for squishy champs instead). Since we're not going with that change though Randuin's will likely get its crit reduction back, at least until we potentially look at crits in general again (unlikely to be before pre-season at the earliest) I'm wondering what exactly made you guys pull that change? I always thought that this was something that should have been in the game since the Marksman update. It would really help differentiate IE and ER which despite being different items that occupy the same slot build order don't really push per-game decision making (either my champ is an IE champ or my champ is an ER champ). Plus it cleanly deals with the problem of "pre-Last Whisper tanks shrug off ADC damage, post-Last Whisper they melt" which has been endemic to the game since bot-lane marksman was discovered. And it brings us away from the "whoever crits more wins" marksman duels of historical IE metas. I know this is just a big opinion dump by a random forumer and you guys definitely know better just by virtue of the fact that you've actually playtested this change, but I really hope you either reconsider dropping this before the tank update hits live, or elaborate on that write-up a bit more, because it feels to me like this change has been long overdue and the mid-season tank update is the perfect time and place for a change of this scope. That's all, thanks for reading.
: When a rioter works on a champ no one can do anything he has 100% power on it And to be fair " he disliked doing reworks due to the constraints leveled upon him to keep true to the original" at least he keeps the original not like repertoir or stashu {{champion:69}} went from a dot mage to machine gun {{champion:90}} nuf said {{champion:98}} {{champion:91}} nuf said {{champion:72}} "skarner should be an objective jungler" lol
> [{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bhp1RLmK,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-01-12T21:01:54.293+0000) > > When a rioter works on a champ no one can do anything he has 100% power on it [Citation needed] Granted this is from the outside looking in, but it seems Riot has an extraordinarily bureaucratic content creation process. I have no doubt in my mind there were at least 3 passives that got removed from the kit. In fact if you listen to Riot's designers on their talk show/stream/whatever they are always talking about some ludicrous feature that got cut in champion development.
: Should be on PBE soon (today or tomorrow), ship in 6.24. Will still be an AP/Health item. The direction is going to be shrinking it down a bit - less cost, less stats, exact numbers still in flux a bit - and flattening the passive out to 20% in all cases, which makes it preferentially better on champions who can apply that slow repeatedly (or when it matters) rather than having the passive attempt to make it comparably valuable over many different types of AP champions.
I don't mean any offense but, how did it take you so long to settle on such a simple numbers adjustment?
: So with this Singed Support guy getting banned for refusing to cooperate.
Borderline trolling? He made it to Plat elo. Try "borderline trolling" even half your games and see if you can make it to Plat V. You can't. He was playing to win every game.
Sahn Uzal (EUW)
: I definetly Agree. But lifesteal as a stat needs to get retuned aswell.
Grievous Wounds increased to 50%, now only affects Lifesteal. Boom, 2 birds with 1 stone.
Verdade (EUNE)
: Name champion that wants to get new shield keystone, doesn't have CC and doesn't require another keystone. I dare you.
: Real Talk: ADC should have a second rework
Two things I'd like to see change in ADC itemization: One - Crit build's total raw DPS lowered, while some % armor pen is split off from LW items to crit items like IE. This solidifies the crit build as the go-to "anti-tank" build while hopefully upping the 2-3 shot potential against squishies to something like 4 or 5 autos. Two - "Open up" blue build to other ADCs by making Tear more universally stackable. The interesting thing about blue build is it allows ADCs to trade raw DPS potential later for safety and dueling potential now. Unfortunately the only champion that is able to actually make this tradeoff is Ezreal because of how Tear works. Personally I don't like this deal where you can only buy Tear if you have spammable untargeted spells. This change would hopefully resolve both the "Every fight I get dove and blown up in 2 seconds" complaints and the "If I don't dive the ADC I get blown up in 2 seconds" complaints.
: It looks like they are changing it from % increase to AD and AP to being a % of your damage being changed to true damage
I believe that's just a passive they're planning to put on the PBE for Shyvana. Seems kind of gimmicky IMO, but it's for another thread.
: You say "worst designed" like you have any idea what you are talking about. Then you list a bunch of "counters" or "responses" to the other dragons that completely ignore the options available by the other team. You've created a one-sided argument with no acknowledgement of counterpoints, assume there are no counterpoints, and then declare yourself correct. Also your argument of teams going crazy with scaling sounds like you are playing a game where you have absolutely no dragon control and the enemy team was really on top of dragons. I'd think that if you were that afraid of the enemy team scaling crazy with Infernal Dragons then you'd try and take the dragon, wouldn't you? Or are you afraid of actually having to use teamwork and come up with strategies to win?
I don't list the winning advantages of the other drakes because I think they're self-evident. Yes, moving faster around the map than the enemy increases your chance to win. So does being able to melt Baron/Dragon/Towers over them. So does regen keeping you in the field longer than them. I think that's a pretty obvious statement to make, so I didn't say it. And I think your point about "well you can take it too" is a bit disingeneous. If there was a dragon which instantly blew up the enemy nexus only if you were Blue Side, I don't think it's much of an argument to say "Purple side can just take the dragon to deny the instant win!" A random element that can't be predicted before the game starts shouldn't screw people over for things that happen before the game starts.
: You do realize the past dragon that a lot of people seem to praise literally only gave gold? and gold is a stat amplifier What do you want? For Dragon to give a sticker that says "I killed the Dragon!" and do nothing else? Fight for the damn objective if you think it's so good. You shouldn't be able to freely negate the enemy team's dragon buff(s), otherwise what is the point of getting it? League of Legends has an economy, the team that's ahead gets more stuff. I personally hate Overwatch because the game boils down to "stand around grouped for x minutes until Overtime where everyone uses their ults at once to determine the game"; I personally don't see much complexity to that, or fun for that matter.
At least getting gold benefits all team members equally. A Sejuani can use 300 gold to buy items just as well as a Lucian or Ahri, but she can't use a AD/AP % amp nearly as well as them. And I'm not advocating for the removal of Dragon snowballing. Nor am I advocating for a revert to the old dragon. As I've said I think the other Dragons are in a fine spot, in terms of how they improve your map pressure and change your gameplan. The team who got an early Earth drake, Air drake, Ocean drake, Infernal Drake, they're all going to have a win% advantage over the team that didn't. I'm just saying that Infernal is the most overbearing in the sense that it colors every interaction you have with the enemy team. It's ok to be rewarded for taking Dragon, but It shouldn't improve *everything* you do. Getting two Infernals takes over the game in a way no other 2-drake combination can, because there's no gameplay around you getting a bunch of offensive stats. You just do everything you did before, but you win harder. That's not interesting to me.
: what if they made fire drake like a burn, not on hit, but for every ability cast / auto with a cd, it does like a mini death fire. Give it an animation like the other drakes have. Idk spitballing but its an idea. it is a bit boring as is. Wind is my favorite by far
That's actually a pretty interesting idea. Since the burn could be applied by your whole team it would incentivize looking for picks - singling out a single target to apply all 5 Infernal DoTs on. I like it.
N Pelosi (NA)
: Nah, air drake is the strongest. The ability to move position on the map much faster is huge. Way better than fire.
For the record, I do agree with you that Cloud Drake can be better situationally. But I wasn't really as interested in talking about the power level of the dragons as about the design of the drakes - how they impact the game and how you can respond to that impact. I think that Infernal is much worse than Cloud Drake in that regard which is why I made this thread.
Rioter Comments
Sasogwa (EUW)
: Why not 7% though
How about they actually fix the item having way too many stats and use cases instead of playing seesaw with its values? Rioters keep talking about how they need to change it substantially yet nothing has come out of it.
: Damage eventually outscaling defense is more or less fine, since that allows games to be closed out; what OP is talking about is marksman damage not only approaching standard burst levels, but at times far exceeding them, to the point where squishy enemies can end up dying without ever being able to properly react.
It's the wrong solution to the right problem. It's true that tankier champs are worse at killing towers, inhibitors and the nexus and better at holding them, but the fix for that is not to make tank items worthless after 40 minutes, the fix is to give tanks items that allow them to participate in the objective battle. We've all had those moments where after a teamfight ends, a single tank is left standing and they awkwardly stand around to twiddle their thumbs on a minion wave because they can't even kill Dragon or take a tower before everyone has respawned.
: lantern was trash tbh, laners abused it in early season 2 and riot in season 2 was incompetent unlike later in season 4/5. instead of nerfing the stats and buffing the damage against monsters, they straight up nerfed lantern making every farming jungle going into oblivion like warwick/yi you know the funniest thing, is that stattik posted a poll to how should riot buff lantern, and we all pressed the option "not making it randomly" cause i agree that lantern being random was terrible.
You would never see a Rioter post with a poll like that these days. As the game has changed, so has the company, it seems... :(
: We changed the behavior where you can grab people that was in the area at the start of the cast, instead of the end of the cast: > > > "REMOVEDGET OVER HERE Fixed a bug where enemies would be pulled in if they successfully escaped the area during the cast time"
Can you guys fix the bug where the Q occassionally completely misses a target when hitting many units? It's happened often when clearing a large concave of ranged minions that 1 or 2 in the middle gets left untouched.
: One of the goals that I didn't go into too much depth on is that I really want to play up the decision-making and impact behind empowered spells. For example, Q might be for going in for the kill, W for survival, and E for catch/reach. If the effects here are really pronounced, the tradeoff you make between them should feel really important.
I feel like Q damage vs W survivability is a non-decision for Rengar since killing your target and dying as an assassin is vastly preferable to not killing someone and staying alive from a feel perspective and from a teamfighting perspective. Longer-term sustained damage (perhaps tied to ferocity gain) vs upfront burst damage with no possibility of follow up would be a much more interesting decision for Rengar.
: > That said, Rengar's update is currently operating under the conditions of the new stealth system. will the new stealth system bring changes to how the red trinkets work will the new stealth system affect twitch, eve (i assume yes) so with this new stealth system can we expect changes in how we perceive stealthed units because otherwise i don't really know what to expect when you say new stealth system
Most likely, all detection is going to move to the red-silhouette style of the current sweepers. Assassins become too binary when the main counterplay to stealth is "pink ward and exhaust them faster than they can press all their buttons".
Reav3 (NA)
: We wouldn't make it impossible to take without a Assassin, but just one that is easier for Assassins to take.
Where would such an objective be located? The map is pretty full as it is?
: Assassin Roster Update -- Talon Direction
How much is Stealth/Invisibility going to factor into his new kit? More or less of it?
: > [{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BRh5Wwns,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-07-26T02:26:34.064+0000) > > Skirmishers' kits are the funnest to watch be played to their maximum ""(except Riven to me who just face rolls onto someone)" in my opinion since they have that rich balance in mobility, damage, and defensive cool downs. Plus a little bit of CC here and there. She actually require some skill to pull off correctly. She's not completely faceroll. You got to know her combos and you need an early kill to do good at all. Flora's the same way. Not so brain-dead as everyone says. There's somthing we call people who think she's brain-dead. We call them...bronze.
I'm Diamond IV and I think Fiora is brain-dead.
: Getting 2 or 3 of the same dragon has some of the best gains though (from a design perspective). When you are multi stacked with a buff the sharpness in your power is enough that it really starts influencing strategy and decision making. "We have 3 water, lets get into a poke war and heal up to full before diving that tower."
What's the intended strategy when you're able to stack multiple fire dragons? They seem to augment pretty much any playstyle, and how much they benefit you is mostly contingent on your (pregame) picks.
: who else quit league or at least barely plays it anymore
Dropped in to see the mid year updates. But it wasn't interesting enough to bring me back. I'm back to bumping my rank once a month. Judging by the queue times a lot of other Diamond players have had the same idea. I might watch the esports every now and then, but I've lost my desire to play.
: I just realized something... League has conditioned me to be a bystander
Why would you defend/argue against someone you're only going to see for 30 minutes tops? If I see 2 of my teammates making chat unusable for the team I just /mute all, ez solution.
Voluug13 (NA)
: People dont like to accept that an ''utility assassin'' is like an ''anti burst ADC'', an ''anti-kite juggernaut'' or an ''anti-CC Light Fight''. Some things should simply never done.
{{champion:203}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:114}}
: I do think Dead Man's Plate compromised the intended strength/weakness profile of Juggernauts. I don't know that everyone here feels the same, however.
I just hate that it's been so ubiquitous on non-Juggernauts. It doesn't really feel like a "Juggernaut item" at this point, compared to Black Cleaver or Sterak's Gage (even though it arguably gets abused by other classes harder) or even Spirit Visage. I like that building those items enhance my strengths as a Juggernaut instead of patching up my weaknesses. DMP feels like more of an initiator tank or Diver item that I happen to pick up because it improves my stickiness. I also feel like hybrid health + armor items are obnoxious when too many of them are good, and Dead Man's is the first I'd want removed.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=JavelinJoe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5B6ciHf6,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-04-22T07:35:27.517+0000) > > Best part of the update is no devourer and rageblade gets nerfed. Pointing out that rageblade can now do the double onhit effect trigger on every other auto attack on the PBE.
It's significantly more expensive, though - cost is the same as Infinity Edge, and sitting on a blasting wand might not be super desirable.
: The jungle timer changes aren't bad in themselves. There's another, much larger, issue at hand.
What are you talking about lol. Premades will instantly communicate an invade over voice regardless of spawn timer or no spawn timer existing, because only 1 person has to pay attention to it and the rest can get it from him. That hasn't changed. With solo players you had waste time to explain in team chat that you wanted to invade and needed backup, now you can just ping the yellow spawn timer. This is a huge buff to not-stupid solo players who understand the concept of invading.
: Guinsoo's Rageblade, Devourer, and Bloodrazor
I'm a little worried that ADC's will start picking up Smite to reap the benefits of Bloodrazor. It has a pretty good build path (Recurve Bow is an awesome item to sit on), fairly low cost compared to BotRK and Red Smite synergizes with it really well and can also be used as a mini-exhaust (it's certainly saved me against lots of Vlad's on the PBE). The jungle item passive gives some handy sustain off of jungle camps. And the Smite itself can be used to accelerate your level 1 camp start, do a quick shove early, and can double your Dragon/Baron securing power with your Jungler's help. You do lose a lot of all-in power and lane control by not taking heal, and it can be hard to last-hit sometimes with nothing but 15 bonus physical damage, but Red Smite + Bloodrazor + Hurricane is so incredible on autoattackers once midgame rolls around and you have to grind down the enemy tanks, that I feel like Smite/Flash is going to become really popular on autoattack focused ADC's.
Victusify (EUNE)
: Just to make it clear - Guinsoo will also proc stuff like Life Steal twice on each hit? If so, if Guinsoo user builds a Vampiric Scepter for 900gold, he basically gains BT passive. And once he get to BT - he gets 40% life steal from one item. If you put it together with something else (Death's Dance wouldn't be a bad idea, since BT will give you enough LS to cover that bleed effect) you will have 40% LS + 15% of all physical damage as a heal. If you decide to go BT + Mercurial, that's 60% LS on hit, 140AD and if someone CC you, you can break free and keep chasing them. That sounds a bit...scary.
Phantom Hit technically procs lifesteal, but since the attack itself does no damage you are lifestealing nothing. I think on-hit physical damage (e.g. BotRK passive, new madreds bloodrazor) specifically will proc lifesteal, but it's fairly rare and not often in a quantity that matters much.
: Whether a certain piece of information should be a reward or a baseline can be pretty debatable. Should we show you the expiration timer on enemy scuttle crab? The death timers on enemy champions? Spell cooldowns on allied champions? Buff durations on enemy champions? There are skill and reward arguments to be made about all sorts of things. Sometimes you say "play *for* this information," sometimes you say "play *with* this information." The cost benefit has to be weighed in each case. In the case of red and blue buff, we found that games had more strategic variance, coordinated playmaking, and exciting mid-games when both teams played **with** this information instead of **for** it. There is de-emphasis on scouting camp takedowns and a greater emphasis on both sides fighting to contest those camps as they respawn. It is a tradeoff for sure. But in this case we feel it's worth it. Tangentially, there's also the question of whether information that can be derived should just be clearly shown. Red and Blue respawn, technically speaking, can be derived from looking at someone's buff bar while they hold the red/blue buff. It can also be derived from spectating the game. A similar thing happened with Baron timer: while we can make people calculate this stuff, it's basically public knowledge for those willing to do book keeping on it. How valuable is that to ask people to do?
Will you do it for enemy summoner timers then? really annoying to type those in.
: It literally says for the different combat patterns "The water dragon, for example, has attacks that slow movement speed, making it harder to disengage from a dragon attempt, while the earth dragon’s tougher than the others, so will be a longer fight." Like read it man
I must have glossed over it. Thanks, friend.
Meddler (NA)
: Elemental Dragons: What we're doing and why
What's the behavior if a dragon is going to spawn very close to the Elder Dragon's spawn time e.g. 34:37? Is there a cutoff point before 35:00 after which it won't spawn? (I think Rift Herald has this). I also feel like Earth Dragon is going to suck for a losing team, but we'll see how it plays out I guess.
: its not a good build in any way. you saw in the match that late game it was switched out for a rapid fire cannon. I'd rather rush an IE then a rpf than go for rageblade. sure as 1 item rageblade is a complete package. waveclear attack speed and damage. but its just. not that great on ranged champions.
The whole point of the item is to be an early/mid game crutch to boost your damage as a cheap replacement for IE. He sold it not because he made a mistake in buying it, but because it's worthless late game when you have no time to stack it. You can think of it like the old Haunting Guise, if you were around back then.
: > [{quoted}](name=ll League God ll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jQYuKd2Y,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-18T16:33:00.539+0000) > > you do realise this actually gives tristana a mid game right? whereas before she was good lane phase, then had a 15 minute gap of pure garbage, then became a late game monster... this setup allows her to flow smoother from early to late You also want to note that not a SINGLE damn person in league of legends history wanted to use a rage blade on Tristana until it was done in LCS. Even then REQUIRED team coordination which is never used in ranking anymore unless premade. I've lost more games from people trying to mimic LCS games they just been shown. -.-; Hell the match I went into earlier when they were talking rageblade on tris, my teamamte built it first and proceeded to die easy.
It was pretty common in Korea and in high elo NA Solo Queue long before TSM vs. CLG. And it really is just a midgame powerspike item, it doesn't change a whole lot about Tristana's playstyle. Blame your teammates who don't know how to play Tristana, not the build...
: Let's say you have the ability to delete 5 champions of your choice....
{{champion:107}} Fails in almost every category a champion could fail in. Completely unbalanceable and uninteractive kit, and a proper rework would never please his current playerbase enough to happen. He needs to be deleted and remade. {{champion:7}} Dumb champion. Her kit design holds back a lot of less stupidly designed mages, and her art design feels pretty uninspired. Of these 5, though, she is probably the one most likely to be able to get by with "just" a full rework. {{champion:104}} Old Graves was better. New Graves will remain overtuned until Riot deems enough people have forgotten this fact. {{champion:412}} His existence sets a (stupid) bar for support/utility-focused champions. His popularity is probably the biggest contributor to the "overloading" of designs we've seen trending from Riot in the past 2-3 years. {{champion:429}} Terrible, terrible design that Riot has refused to properly fix since her release. She's similar to LeBlanc in that she holds a lot of fairer champions back, but she also holds back the entire attack speed stat as well as the possibility of melee farmers in the botlane. Ironic considering how much Riot hails her as a pinnacle of "innovative design."
Eyesack (NA)
: It's sad as you climb you realize a lot of the champions you played become obsolete
I feel you bro. I love playing Ashe but even on the rare occasion you don't get completely run over by a Lucian, everyone just builds QSS or mikael's by 25 mins and it's just like ... why am I doing this to myself. T_T I used to be able to just play off-meta shit for fun in team builder but now there's no chance of that. Normal Draft is deserted and takes forever to get into a game, and Blinds are just cancer with no bans. I wish I was a noob again...
: {{champion:121}}
Can't agree more. Even though he might actually be too strong this patch I'd still rather play against 100 Kha'zixes than 1 Zed or Rengar.
Meddler (NA)
: We're planning to do another class update at the end of the year (November ish, so after Worlds). Assassins are a strong option for that spot. We won't be doing another class update between 6.9 and Worlds.
Does that mean it'll be *released* after Worlds, or work will start after Worlds?
: I'd suggest only Upvotes change the state of the post, while Downvotes count in the behind. If Downvotes go over Upvotes and are in big amounts, then the treshhold will trigger. So If someone frankly finds some post rude/inaccurate in measure that it should be ignored, they'll just vote without seeing whether "they are part of the train". If it reaches measure that majority voting decided it is over limit, treshhold would still work. If some post is better in its means that the other, Upvotes will still levitate it.
So basically downvotes are hidden until they surpass upvotes by a lot? It would definitely work for the popular posts... it might do some weird flip flopping to the posts in "new" though.
: > [{quoted}](name=Ounzer,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=dKO2m2tg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-11T17:35:14.067+0000) > > A few things about hit axe spin: > - if he spams it, two things will happen: > 1 he goes oom and > 2 he pushes lane hard. > > Also its worth noting that if you are gonna get hit by it, then stack on him, as it does less damage the closer you are to him He still outdamages me even if he doesn't hit me with the edges because of his attack speed slow and his broken passive. And if you mess up even _once_ and allow him to grab you back to him (keep in mind his grab completely overrides your dash) you're either dead or running away for your tower with 100 hp.
> [{quoted}](name=LiveYiOrDieHard,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=dKO2m2tg,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-04-11T17:39:37.365+0000) > > He still outdamages me even if he doesn't hit me with the edges because of his attack speed slow and his broken passive. And if you mess up even _once_ and allow him to grab you back to him (keep in mind his grab completely overrides your dash) you're either dead or running away for your tower with 100 hp. He doesn't have an AS slow anymore. And your dash completes faster than his pull's cast time finishes. If you're trading properly he shouldn't even have a chance to pull you. This matchup is entirely on you to lose.
: I've defended AD itemization? That's news to me.
Did you actually stumble upon this comment or did you just look up your name? :o
Rioter Comments
: Half this game's 'nerfs' are worthless and result in a placebo effect.
The most impactful nerfs are range nerfs, CC duration nerfs, CD nerfs and base AS nerfs. Any other nerf has to change numbers in the 100's (effectively or otherwise) before it makes a dent in a champ's true power. Riot does tiny nerfs to champs they want to remain popular, because they know the community can't distinguish between quality and quantity. "OMG Kalista has been nerfed 9 times in a row, leave her alone!!!" Well yeah, when your nerfs are all along the lines of "Rend costs 20 more mana if it's used to kill 1 minion" 9 nerfs really doesn't mean much.
: I think this problem stems from the fact that Riot doesn't want to create mobility/escape items and prefers instead to put those kinds of things on the champion kit itself. The game is too old and set in its ways now for that to change, but because of that, we're going to be stuck in this "arms race" feeling for the life of the game.
I think I'd rather see universal items that punish mobility instead of items that improve it. Defensive mobility can scale in a really deceptive way, since it's primarily used for getting out of range of your enemies' abilities. For example, consider an item that gives you a 200 unit high speed dash and what it does for characters with various amounts of mobility. Going from having 0->200 unit dash is a lot more impactful than going from a 400-600 dash which in turn is a lot more impactful than a 200->400 dash, simply that's how the distribution of ability/autoattack ranges work out. There's also a lot of nuance in tuning the speed at which you move, which can lead to balance issues. Whereas anti-mobility is a lot more consistent, since gameplay around it tends to be more about uptime/downtime/zoning and you can still use your natural ability to move around and dodge. Also, it's a bit deeper from an itemization perspective. "I'm going to buy the anti-mobility item because their team has X mobile champion(s) who I need to shut down" is a much more varied decision than "The mobility item works really well with Y's kit, so I just buy it because I'm playing Y".
: Here's why ADCs are "mandatory"
The problem is that Riot has stuffed ADC kits with tons of additional damage, utility and safety for "feel" reasons - it "feels" good to dash away from the Kha or Xin or whoever's on your ass. So the typical ADC is not only the best objective-taking class, but also has self-sufficient teamfighting and safe solo pushing. What's worse, counter-classes like assassins and divers have been designed around the ability to "fairly" kill a marksman like Vayne, Kalista or Lucian who have repeatable dashes. Which screws over other ADCs like Varus or Draven who lack as many defensive tools. If you look at competitive, almost every marksman picked has some form of mobility that allows them to cover 500 units in less than a second. The only exception is Jhin, who uses his ult, traps and W to contribute massive catch potential and damage from over 1k units away, while getting massive movespeed for his closer range critical strikes. And even then, if you look at the C9 vs TSM game, he's still getting gapclosed on by a Zed who instakills him without even using a skillshot, just ult E and auto (ie: pure range checks). It's a vicious cycle: ADC has a slow dash and a knockback, so give the next diver high MS and a gapcloser, so give the next ADC a repeatable quick dash, stealth, and a knockback, so give the next assassin 2 gapclosers, ranged waveclear, and massive targeted burst, etc. Mobility creep at its finest. In the end, you can't bolt a self-sufficient kit onto a team-dependent role without making someone's champion feel like shit. Currently non-ADC's feel like shit because those kits are strong. Eventually the pendulum will swing the other way and ADC's will feel like shit again, and Riot will release another hypermobile ADC.
: > [{quoted}](name=EdgeEddgeNEdgy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pWHrmG0Q,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-04-02T21:06:38.774+0000) > > I can agree with Azir, Draven and Vayne. I don't really think Nidalee is to hard personally. She has a lot of auto resets and cancels she can do that are difficult
And once you learn how to do them, you've mastered her forever. Meanwhile, a Draven or an Azir might have to adapt to a situation that they've never encountered before even after 1000 games.
: > [{quoted}](name=aperson1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A93yVJx8,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2016-04-02T06:29:09.169+0000) > > Mobility is important for tanks to: > > * get in and unload their initial CC/damage, > > * to stick to and zone/kill mispositioned carries, and > > * to get out after it's no longer safe to stay in the fight > > Examples: Zac, Gragas, Maokai, etc. > > Ekko definitely fits in this category and I'd argue outclasses most other tanks at the second and third points. > > There are a few whose mobility isn't so good at the second and third point, like Sion and Amumu. Their AoE tends to be much more impactful, but their initiation is more inconsistent and they tend to peter out if they fall behind. Not coincidentally, they are pretty unfavored picks in high ELO/competitive as well. You might have been thinking of these kinds of tanks, which is why I mentioned them. Tanks are very rarely completely immobile. Gragas is a bruiser, but you're correct in saying that tanks do require mobility specifically for initiating. They also require CC to actually pose a threat and draw focus. Unfortunately for Ekko, tanks do NOT need high burst damage. Overpowered? Nah. Poorly designed and annoying? You betcha.
If you look at what Tankko is actually doing in high ELO right now, he's not really bursting enemy carries down. Instead, he's slowing them to hell, using his ridiculous mobility to constantly stand on top of them, and whittling them down with his passive, Sunfire and Iceborn procs, and ulting away at the first threat of death. Part of it is that Sunfire/Iceborn is a ridiculous powerspike that makes him and every other melee champion that buys it deal massive damage while being unkillable. Part of it is that he simply can't reliably use his full kit (Q return, passive procs, W coming down, hitting the ult on someone) unless he's in the fight for a while, something that pure AP items can't guarantee.
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