: I did consider it, but it was a ranked game and I didn't really want to lose my LP. It was sure tempting but in the long run it's much more beneficial to just go jungle especially considering I can actually play jungle decently. Besides, if I had caved and gone 3 man bot lane, I would pretty much be no better than the Lux.
> [{quoted}](name=Emperør Rhaast,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Jq4GaZ9J,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-12-11T16:02:50.686+0000) > > I did consider it, but it was a ranked game and I didn't really want to lose my LP. It was sure tempting but in the long run it's much more beneficial to just go jungle especially considering I can actually play jungle decently. Besides, if I had caved and gone 3 man bot lane, I would pretty much be no better than the Lux. Fair point. Pretty sure I can't jungle for shit, and to me people trying to force a swap without discussion is akin to bullying so I wont stand for it. I might apologize to everyone else, but collateral damage happens.
: Riot needs to do something about this.
I'm personally with the watch the world burn people. Lock {{champion:45}} "support" and nuke all the farm you can, shouldn't hit the poaching cap because the {{champion:99}} and her buddy would both have to go for what they could get to counteract you, only response if they complained in chat is I was assigned support and must follow orders. Games full of pro trolls, but I'm a pro asshole.
Xenoid (OCE)
: Removing Twisted Treeline was a mistake, it wasn't popular mode, but at least it kept away those bots from real players.
> [{quoted}](name=Xenoid,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JEzezfpX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-02T00:07:47.264+0000) > > Removing Twisted Treeline was a mistake, it wasn't popular mode, but at least it kept away those bots from real players. That's part of why it wasn't a popular mode. Botters used it because it let the bots do more games faster.
Cõmega (NA)
: Inconsistency with the mod team
> [{quoted}](name=Cõmega,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=xEuu4wKA,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-12-01T22:17:19.215+0000) > > So i got a post removed for saying > > Because the mod team PERCEIVED it as a insult, When i was truly talking about. > Not playing in autopilot and start Actually using your brain when you play. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI-fV-jOxxo > > But this guy can go around calling people idiots, but i cant provide advice. > > Thing is guy wasn't even banned on the 28 Of November > he was banned **until **28 of november. > > So not only is the post harassment, > Its harassment based off of nonfactual evidence > > edit; > whats even worse is a mod even posted in the same thread with the harassment and didn't even care ?XD You're still on about this. The last time you even put things in that showed why it deserved to be removed in your own post about why it shouldn't have.
: "support" design has been complete garbage lately
> [{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fisYzc2T,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-30T05:54:29.768+0000) > > Yuumi, pyke and now senna... 3 complete nightmares to balance, 3 unfun champs to play against, 3 overloaded champs, 3 champions that are the complete epitome of how new champs SHOULD NOT be made. > > Did you guys at riot forget to how to make healthy support champions? > > Whatever happened to braums, namis, you know, champs that actually play as SUPPORTS rather than a 0 income adc/mage/assassin? Its just really unhealthy for the bot lane if you guys keep pumping those abominations non stop, its the worst thing ever to see senna support actually outscaling an adc in terms of damage with 0 farm and then watching her have massive utility at the same time, thats when they dont abuse her as an adc and get items even earlier because you know, its healthy for a champion with scaling range to fking start the game at 600 (SIX HUNDRED!) range at lvl 1, senna should have like 525 range at lvl 1 if new champ balance wasant such a joke (yes, scaling champs with passives like that SHOULD BE WEAK EARLY GAME AND NOT LANE BULLIES). > > Just like solo lane pyke was absolutely aids before they nerfed half of his kit and aoe (and its still quite annoying). Yuumi i dont even need to talk about as you have already seen tons of pros even saying "why in the world was this champ made". > > Please stop riot, please stop, i know the truth hurts but please, start being reasonable again with new champions, this is too much and its going to completely break the game balance very soon enough. There has always been a shortage of players with a true support mentality, so autofilled players complained endlessly about always being autofilled to a role they don't enjoy. So Riot started doing things they thought would appease carry players that were autofilled support not realizing that you can't appease away a mindset.
: It would be nice if we could get gp10 rune stats to compensate for losing gp10 runes from before runes reforged. I'm posting this on every "supports need more gold" thread. It would help a lot.
> [{quoted}](name=Eppidemic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aKGy9vht,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-11-29T22:00:04.794+0000) > > It would be nice if we could get gp10 rune stats to compensate for losing gp10 runes from before runes reforged. I'm posting this on every "supports need more gold" thread. It would help a lot. I honestly abused the hell out of those. I'd use them, build all the gp10 items when they were stackable and turn Leona into an killable wrecking ball that couldn't be ignored or I would single out carries by myself after eating multiple ults since I was built full tank.
: > [{quoted}](name=Kalienor,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aKGy9vht,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-11-30T08:57:26.672+0000) > > Having to manage your mana instead of mindlessly spamming for 10 minutes like your blue bar means nothing is an improvement for me. > > When mana isn't a problem, the only thing mattering is if you hit with your spells and nothing else. If you have to manage your mana, not only you have to hit like before, but you also have to adapt the frequency of use to keep some ressources for later. This 2-dimensional approach deepens the gameplay, mechanical aspect isn't king anymore and you have to think of a strategy to break the opponent by other means than sheer pressure. You realize a good sized amount of supports mana regen base is balanced around the fact that they will take spellthief, right? This is why the tank supports don't have mana problems, because it's expected they aren't going to take (old) spellthief. Which just widens the gap between the broken engage supports and everyone else. Also, without mana regen, spellthief doesn't really offer all that much. Which is why the meta is just taking relic shield on every support, because it's far less risky to use its gold gen aspect.
> [{quoted}](name=NTrumpWeTrust,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aKGy9vht,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-11-30T22:28:23.463+0000) > > You realize a good sized amount of supports mana regen base is balanced around the fact that they will take spellthief, right? This is why the tank supports don't have mana problems, because it's expected they aren't going to take (old) spellthief. Which just widens the gap between the broken engage supports and everyone else. Also, without mana regen, spellthief doesn't really offer all that much. Which is why the meta is just taking relic shield on every support, because it's far less risky to use its gold gen aspect. There are also the "supports" like Brand that scale much harder with AP pushing other champs actually designed to play the role out when an engage support might not be the best choice. You don't need as much sustain if you only have to do your rotation once.
: > [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aKGy9vht,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-29T11:07:35.156+0000) > > Support right now is still fine. > > Support players just don't want to accept that their role is a UTILITY ROLE and isn't meant to be carrying. > > > The role of a Support is to assist the team with utility such as Vision, healing, shielding, crowd control and offensive/defensive steroids. Why is everyone downvoting this comment when it's essentially what supports were meant to do? Why should supports have a huge impact on the game compared to a mainline role such as mid or top. I mean yeah support has a very good strength in regards to utility but why do we support mains need damage? I'd rather have access to more shielding/healing instead of damage. It's so counterintuitive for people to downvote this post instead of thinking for themselves. #botted
> [{quoted}](name=Chewy Candy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aKGy9vht,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2019-11-29T19:42:30.991+0000) > > Why is everyone downvoting this comment when it's essentially what supports were meant to do? Why should supports have a huge impact on the game compared to a mainline role such as mid or top. I mean yeah support has a very good strength in regards to utility but why do we support mains need damage? I'd rather have access to more shielding/healing instead of damage. It's so counterintuitive for people to downvote this post instead of thinking for themselves. #botted It's condescending. Support mains understand and enjoy filling the role. They know that doing those things well is how they carry games. A lot of changes have been made to make autofilled players more willing to play the role because of a lack of players with a support mindset and now support is paying the price for those changes.
Cõmega (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EdEPmEmQ,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000002,timestamp=2019-11-30T02:14:54.758+0000) > > ChickenWrap is correct, if there was not context that would explicitly prevent those statements from being taken as insults. You don't get to decide if someone else should or shouldn't offended by something, and tone can be very hard to convey through text. People often read things in a tone that relates to how they have heard similar statements spoken or used before, so contextual content is very important. Being offended by something doesn't make that person correct by default either, but without proper context they lack the information necessary to assess intent. Who's to decide if i intended to insult him. You? Trump? Because obviously i did not intend in any way to insult him at all. If i tell some one to "Actually use your smite" Is that insulting? Why would anyone think this sentence meant ( You're incapable of using smite ) >Being offended by something doesn't make that person correct by default either >ChickenWrap is correct
> [{quoted}](name=Cõmega,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EdEPmEmQ,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000020000,timestamp=2019-11-30T02:17:45.349+0000) > > Who's to decide if i intended to insult him. Very likely the person you were originally engaging with, mods have generally been much better over time about not removing post that weren't reported first. That's why I qualified the first part of the statement with "if there was not context that would explicitly prevent those statements from being taken as insults." I have literally responded to people with nothing but {{champion:48}} and no other context and not had it removed because it was not reported to them. I've also had it removed and gotten a warning for it when it was reported. If I had added context that would have made it unquestionably clear that it was meant as joke intended to give the other person a laugh it would have been very different. I didn't and it admittedly wasn't, so when it got removed that was fair enough.
Cõmega (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ChickenWrap,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EdEPmEmQ,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-30T01:26:26.925+0000) > Not having the intent to insult does not mean what you said could not be perceived as insulting -- and clearly it was, otherwise it wouldn't have shown up in our queue as harassment. Like do you even read the rules of the board you moderate? I'm 100% sure the rules say something like > Do not post content intended to insult: Not > Do not post anything that could be perceived as a insult Like are you serious? Are mods gonna ban me because someone felt insulted when i accidentally misgendered them There was 0 intent to insult, i was just giving advice
> [{quoted}](name=Cõmega,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EdEPmEmQ,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-30T01:28:41.421+0000) > > Like do you even read the rules of the board you moderate? > > I'm 100% sure the rules say something like > > Not > > Like are you serious? > Are mods gonna ban me because someone felt insulted when i accidentally misgendered them > > There was 0 intent to insult, i was just giving advice ChickenWrap is correct, if there was not context that would explicitly prevent those statements from being taken as insults. You don't get to decide if someone else should or shouldn't offended by something, and tone can be very hard to convey through text. People often read things in a tone that relates to how they have heard similar statements spoken or used before, so contextual content is very important. Being offended by something doesn't make that person correct by default either, but without proper context they lack the information necessary to assess intent.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aXsymAEn,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-28T19:23:21.607+0000) > > The problem with using average game time for calculations is that it's average, On the other hand, having a number for an average case is very useful for discussion. * It provides a point for reasoning about how the change would affect game versus how games are currently. * It provides a good way for comparing between different peoples thoughts. * It provides a measure of how bad people think the state of support income is. I never said people should not include context what changes they have in mind that would (in their estimates at least) produce the change they present. --- > so a substantial number of games go beyond that, and that is when things start to breakdown. It also includes one sided stomps and hour long clown fiestas, which don't balance out. In an average game where you are now and where you used to get to is at relative parity, for most games. After that you have a dramatic drop off in ability to earn gold, particularly if your team falls behind to the point they can't really fight or take objectives because assist/kills and objective gold are your main sources of income since farm is objectively better on carries unless you have a strong reason to take it. That's going to feel bad for a lot of players and compound over time, because, if they have a lot of long games, at the end of the game, even though the support items are cheap, they will be even further from item parity with everyone else than they tended to be before. Extreme outliers in game pace are generally more a produce of how people are playing in those games than how the game is balanced. After all, game balance is what makes the average what it is.
> [{quoted}](name=Skia Asteri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aXsymAEn,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-29T18:50:18.088+0000) > > On the other hand, having a number for an average case is very useful for discussion. > > * It provides a point for reasoning about how the change would affect game versus how games are currently. > * It provides a good way for comparing between different peoples thoughts. > * It provides a measure of how bad people think the state of support income is. > > I never said people should not include context what changes they have in mind that would (in their estimates at least) produce the change they present. > > --- > > Extreme outliers in game pace are generally more a produce of how people are playing in those games than how the game is balanced. After all, game balance is what makes the average what it is. Fair points. If more data were available for games on the shorter and longer ends of the spectrum a more complete picture that better takes into account more nuanced information could be formed. Breaking data into sets based around age of accounts and number of games played could also be helpful in seeing how changes affect the experience of new vs. older players, sifting out information for players that have multiple accounts of vastly different ages would probably be very difficult though. A better way to put it is that with the shear number of players average is a very different thing for different subsets of players, and without taking that into account changes could have a detrimental effect on an above average number of players and that could spiral out into more dramatic consequences. New and lower elo players tend to have longer games because they stall out more often when one or both teams can't close. If enough players in those games get the mindset that a particular role is just not enjoyable at all they will carry that mindset even as they improve and climb, and spread it to newer players regardless of future changes. That will likely cause a shortage of players willing to fill the position at all overtime because of natural attrition and general unwillingness to fill in. This was a big part of why gold over time and vision items exist in the first place. There will probably always be a way to abuse items Riot creates to try and solve these issues. There are already players finding ways to do so with the current items. Removing much of the ability for players in a single role to contribute in a longer game wont help very much with any of those issues.
Yenn (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u34nt0nz,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-11-28T10:25:01.344+0000) > > I had the idea of Ivern taking unsealed spellbook, smite and teleport, as support, since he can support, so you can steal a buff and then teleport out to bot tower or back and then to bot for slightly more lane advantage as long as you had faith in your duo, just of because how jungle mains have been saying how much harder getting counter jungled fucks them now. Someone I talked to about it did it in gold and it worked at least a few games for them. Some people are playing support top with either an ADC or Yi jungle.
> [{quoted}](name=Yenn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u34nt0nz,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2019-11-29T06:22:13.661+0000) > > Some people are playing support top with either an ADC or Yi jungle. There was someone in a thread about the support item changes complaining about a Veigar using spell thief's top in their plat EUNE game, he played Urgot. They both had low farm, 5-6/minute, and it was a one sided fiesta, but the Veigar had more gold than him from shutdowns and not just getting wrecked like the rest of his team. Game was 23 minutes with almost 70 kills split about around 45 to 25.Guess funnel is back in at least in some fashion as well based on what you're saying.
: > Aside from the tone that the I personally take from the first half of that More or less justified xD As for the rest, in like season 8 I was getting nerfed into the ground patch after patch, they'd nerf everything I'd play lol. I stopped caring, decayed out of plat cuz I stopped playing entirely for a while xD
> [{quoted}](name=Ashe mage AD,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kgts8swa,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-29T09:08:02.999+0000) > > More or less justified xD > > As for the rest, in like season 8 I was getting nerfed into the ground patch after patch, they'd nerf everything I'd play lol. I stopped caring, decayed out of plat cuz I stopped playing entirely for a while xD It can be pretty frustrating when they nerf things because of a few abuse cases or they apparently didn't consider the effect of another change and hit everything but their mistakes. Totally get that, especially if multiple things you play are getting hit patch after patch.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hHW3UVzx,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-28T07:17:15.948+0000) > > I understand the thinking, so others can't abuse cheap stats and vision doesn't get out of control again. I do think it's a bit overkill. Especially if a game stalls out. it was perfectly done last season, though.
> [{quoted}](name=Idgaf I am iron,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hHW3UVzx,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-29T09:13:34.451+0000) > > it was perfectly done last season, though. The items warped the early game too much with the amount of sustain though. There needed to be some changes, but I'm with the people that think Riot made so bad choices on how to do that.
: I mean honestly what do supports cs run late game? A wave is 6 minions so you can push 3 waves out. The reason it's there because funneling meta no more sona taric bullshit
> [{quoted}](name=RyzeRework,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hHW3UVzx,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-11-29T03:46:27.030+0000) > > I mean honestly what do supports cs run late game? A wave is 6 minions so you can push 3 waves out. The reason it's there because funneling meta no more sona taric bullshit Apparently AP/AD focused ones can be abused because you aren't tethered to an ally to use procs and games end so early. There's a couple of post above where a guy is basically complaining about that. He played vs. Veigar that used spell thief's in top lane, the Veigar had 125 farm, in a 23 minute EUNE plat fiesta stomp that had 70 or so kills, had to look it up, was stunned. The losing Veigar had more gold than him, but he was also the only one on his team that didn't have a very negative K/D ratio. It was slaughter bot lane from the look of things. veigar
: Or, hear me out, put a range penalty on it. Make it give less adaptive to ranged, and make it heal less for ranged. This was to be a keystone for melee users who were left without a keystone. Why should ADCs and Mages get gifted another keystone?
> [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o5fjEiwU,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-21T00:58:06.915+0000) > > Or, hear me out, put a range penalty on it. Make it give less adaptive to ranged, and make it heal less for ranged. This was to be a keystone for melee users who were left without a keystone. Why should ADCs and Mages get gifted another keystone? The HP focused support items got similar treatment allowing ranged procs even though they were hot fixed off of original targon's brace in less than a week. Makes me wonder when {{item:3077}} is going to start working at range.
SmolKat (NA)
: Bots in Coop vs AI
After several days of them I had a few games in a row with all humans. It was nice. May have been a recent sweep or just luck, but it was nice.
: Do you think Riot will release a "Mage" champion that has similar complexities to Aphelios?
Let's hope not. He has the potential to turn into a nightmare for balance, and if he does you wouldn't want Riot try to deal with that in AP as well. Would probably be 2 nerfs to the ground in that case.
: are his turrets really such a huge problem early on? again no experience vs heimer but i always thought his towers lack hp and damage early on
> [{quoted}](name=Jennifer17,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFIzREhO,comment-id=000300020000,timestamp=2019-11-29T01:33:52.849+0000) > > are his turrets really such a huge problem early on? > again no experience vs heimer but i always thought his towers lack hp and damage early on They can whittle you down if you aren't careful and if he lands the stun while you're in range of all three it's still a good burst at low levels.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=s9lp5Ase,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-28T07:40:57.498+0000)I don't know if you'll see this, you may just be done with this thread, which is fine of course. Just wanted to say that after seeing some other threads you started and post in other's treads, including this one, I have to say I do feel you are a great example to anyone with a tag in how to engage with players in a constructive fashion that promotes a positive reaction and interaction with your presence. Just wanted to thank you for this! This really made my evening yesterday, and I didn't have time to comment on it. :)
> [{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=s9lp5Ase,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-29T00:15:02.155+0000) > > Just wanted to thank you for this! This really made my evening yesterday, and I didn't have time to comment on it. :) Wholly deserved.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=s9lp5Ase,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-28T07:40:57.498+0000) > > I don't know if you'll see this, you may just be done with this thread, which is fine of course. Just wanted to say that after seeing some other threads you started and post in other's treads, including this one, I have to say I do feel you are a great example to anyone with a tag in how to engage with players in a constructive fashion that promotes a positive reaction and interaction with your presence. Some of us just can't compare -- and that's why he's a Herald.
> [{quoted}](name=ChickenWrap,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=s9lp5Ase,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010001,timestamp=2019-11-29T00:21:24.368+0000) > > Some of us just can't compare -- and that's why he's a Herald. As long you have a target strive toward a goal you'll keep moving forward. I'm trying to be better myself, because it's unfair to others and unacceptable to hold myself to a lower standard.
Garson211 (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=WTBeGirl100EUhr,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hHW3UVzx,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-11-28T20:05:30.586+0000) > > He's barely getting any gold from the minions though. Not rly coz even i won game he has more gold than I. I had 8/6/11 (41%) KP he 9/4/3 (55%) KP so its very simmillar. I 136 CS He 125 CS I end game with 10,057 he end with 10,757 imagiine he can generate more gold after this 1000. he woud end with 12k or maybe 13k + he save more then 600 by upgrade quest that give him free wards and not bad stats.+ i think he still generate +3 gold till end of game. I understand that support want generate gold but riot should just DISABLE minion gold if champ have equiped this item, and then we can talk about "give us more gold after quest complete"
> [{quoted}](name=Garson211,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hHW3UVzx,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T20:22:24.064+0000) > > Not rly coz even i won game he has more gold than I. > I had 8/6/11 (41%) KP > he 9/4/3 (55%) KP > so its very simmillar. > I 136 CS > He 125 CS > > I end game with 10,057 > he end with 10,757 > > imagiine he can generate more gold after this 1000. he woud end with 12k or maybe 13k > + he save more then 600 by upgrade quest that give him free wards and not bad stats.+ i think he still generate +3 gold till end of game. > I understand that support want generate gold but riot should just DISABLE minion gold if champ have equiped this item, and then we can talk about "give us more gold after quest complete" There is a lot of important information missing here. How long was the game? When did he complete the item? What were each of your cs/minute? Did he ever trigger the penalty? How much free AP did he have stacked? How many of each of your kills were shutdowns? How much were they worth? Considering your team had around twice as many or more kills if those KP%s are right I'd bet his were worth a lot more. The simple fact that Veigar is played support, but not designed support means he scales much harder than most designed supports with AP from the item. This is why anecdotal evidence isn't considered reliable in court.
ßlameMyADC (EUNE)
: Or the other team is getting rewarded by pushing you into a corner {{sticker:sg-ezreal}}
> [{quoted}](name=ßlameMyADC,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hHW3UVzx,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T22:46:23.412+0000) > > Or the other team is getting rewarded by pushing you into a corner > {{sticker:sg-ezreal}} Should they get added bonus because someone DCs in an even game, or one where you were ahead, even if you could win the 4v5, but you can't give up vision and do it, and you can't catch/keep up in items because you can't give up vision? It's a catch 22.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jfUG5kKv,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-11-28T09:14:18.699+0000) > > A little aggressive unless I'm reading your tone wrong, that just shows passion though, but I tend to agree. So many people don't know how to accept the joy you get out of the little things that go well or are just so crazy as to be entertaining, even in a loss, because they are so hung up on winning all the time that it saps the joy out of all other aspects of the game if they don't. It definitely is aggressive, I am angered and disappointed of how the game is kept up these days, how Riot as well as the majority treat the game, and it is due to the fact that MANY of the players today are trolls, selfish tryhards, and braindead players with braindead champions and braindead tactics using some unoriginal build they found off a pro player, streamer or etc. It takes away all the fun and I can't even have fun if I lose anymore cause it just felt like wasted time because of how impossible it is to come back from mistakes or bad teammates in the game these days, at least with something like a tank meta you get a full build and satisfaction of a long and interesting game with your own set of internal wins and losses, even if you ultimately lose that match you had fun, but that isn't possible at ALL in the current form of the game.
> [{quoted}](name=The Neon Cosmic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jfUG5kKv,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T22:46:51.811+0000) > > It definitely is aggressive, I am angered and disappointed of how the game is kept up these days, how Riot as well as the majority treat the game, and it is due to the fact that MANY of the players today are trolls, selfish tryhards, and braindead players with braindead champions and braindead tactics using some unoriginal build they found off a pro player, streamer or etc. It takes away all the fun and I can't even have fun if I lose anymore cause it just felt like wasted time because of how impossible it is to come back from mistakes or bad teammates in the game these days, at least with something like a tank meta you get a full build and satisfaction of a long and interesting game with your own set of internal wins and losses, even if you ultimately lose that match you had fun, but that isn't possible at ALL in the current form of the game. I get the reasons why Riot wants games to be faster. Streaming pro cast, a lot of players in Asia being in net cafes that charge by the hour (they're way more willing to abandon a losing game though), but the emphasis on it really does push the tryhards to try harder, and be salter after a game goes wrong, because rebounding from a bad start is so much less likely. That means they only want to play their mains, or something easy to execute with build they think is proven strong, since they could go on a slide and lose even more games (elo) a lot faster. I don't like the games should be over by 25 minutes or something should force an end mentality Riot has adopted at all. You used to be able to pull off some epic comebacks even without the tank meta, you'd be drained from the stress, but energized from what just happened. The snowball is just ridiculous anymore.
phpBP (EUW)
: It's one thing to MAKE a build, it's another to have the build made on you.
> [{quoted}](name=phpBP,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PrEf4R0b,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-28T21:33:45.581+0000) > > It's one thing to MAKE a build, it's another to have the build made on you. I'd say for ranked games maybe giving a bit of extra time after champion lock in to make sure all of prematch set up is just how you want it before loading into the game would be more doable, and something Riot might consider, maybe adding a pause option on that last countdown that gives an extra 30 seconds or so for emergency changes. I'm not sure, but I think I've seen them remake lobbies for pro/challenger streamed games because something happened and someone couldn't get their runes locked in right, like mouse or connection issue or something like that. I'm not with people that act like things don't happen, so you should be stuck with what you got because you should have been faster or been prepared in case your pick gets sniped or you have to take something different on the fly because their last pick changes the whole perspective on the game. It would probably have to be something in champ select though.
: have you ever tried ganking heimerdinger?
> [{quoted}](name=Gammaflare,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFIzREhO,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-28T20:27:35.797+0000) > > have you ever tried ganking heimerdinger? It's not nearly as dangerous if he doesn't get to set up first. Especially early. Edit: Got some down votes, so I think I should qualify that this statement was made assuming the opponents know to clear his turrets when he backs, know for certain they have a window and plan to catch him without backup before he gets reset, and have the ability to finish him in that window, basically assuming the game knowledge, vision set up and teamwork to not just int to Heimer, best case scenario for the opponents
: Replace the support items. this is not healthy.
The old items weren't really healthy. Change needed to happen. This is what Riot chose. I don't think it was the best choice, but a choice needed to be made and was. If it turns out to be bad enough maybe a new choice will be made. This is where we are though and figuring out how to break or live within the system is going to be more useful than screaming into the void here. There are many threads to discuss this already up. No intention to be rude only honest. I'm just further along through the stages of loss than you right now friend.
86400 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFIzREhO,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-28T19:34:28.594+0000) > > These are his only draw backs when split pushing and can even be substantially mitigated. Certain item choices, careful skill use, and good vision. The Donger can wreck a turret pretty quick if not contested and use his turrets for zone control and extended vision. You and your jungler camp the heimer early and keep him from popping off. If you allow him to farm that's kind of on your team. > [{quoted}](name=Jennifer17,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFIzREhO,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-28T19:54:49.435+0000) > > i had the luck to not face a single heimer (when i was top) this entire season, so can someone tell me what makes him so strong? > i cant judge at all but i always thought the aa's of his towers are weak Passive guys trying to farm instead of fight.
> [{quoted}](name=86400,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFIzREhO,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T19:55:44.907+0000) > > You and your jungler camp the heimer early and keep him from popping off. If you allow him to farm that's kind of on your team. That's one way to deal with it. Heimer doesn't scale up if doesn't he have anything to scale with. A smart Heimer should play safer until he gets some gold up and never over extend beyond where he can get the turret nest set up properly with the vision he has to work with.
: Why is the 7 rune page bundle more expensive than buying 7 rune pages separately?!
> [{quoted}](name=Qiyana Ixaocan,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=VqKB8y30,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-28T18:45:01.802+0000) > > WTF RITO Premium for time saved not doing the extra clicks. The Riot employee that has to lift and carry all those heavy rune pages to your account by hand cost extra for insurance and hazardous condition pay. A complete lack of understanding of how wholesale pricing generally works at most businesses. Riot sales is controlled by honey badgers and everyone knows they don't give any fucks. Who knows.
Xavanic (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=86400,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFIzREhO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-28T19:22:43.527+0000) > > He has no mobility and is pretty frail. damn didn't know he was squishy, if only there was an item that gave him nearly 3 seconds of invulnerability to defend himself when someone goes for him................oh wait
> [{quoted}](name=Xavanic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFIzREhO,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-11-28T19:35:33.617+0000) > > damn didn't know he was squishy, if only there was an item that gave him nearly 3 seconds of invulnerability to defend himself when someone goes for him................oh wait Inside of his beautiful little nest of turrets, all cozy and warm.
86400 (NA)
: He has no mobility and is pretty frail.
> [{quoted}](name=86400,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QFIzREhO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-28T19:22:43.527+0000) > > He has no mobility and is pretty frail. These are his only draw backs when split pushing and can even be substantially mitigated. Certain item choices, careful skill use, and good vision. The Donger can wreck a turret pretty quick if not contested and use his turrets for zone control and extended vision.
: To People Complaining About Support Income
> [{quoted}](name=Skia Asteri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aXsymAEn,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-28T15:19:28.322+0000) > > I am curious how much of a buff support income people that complain about their income think is needed. Post how much gold on average you think supports are falling short of where they should be and why you think so. > > For the sake of having a focused discussion, lets use Plat+ as a baseline, where [average game time including surrenders is just shy of 28 minutes](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations). > > Below is more information that can be used by people who care to try giving reasonable answers: > > So if we subtract 1 minute since gold gen does not start till a bit after one minute, that is 27 minutes for gold generation (rounding up since it is possible to get gold sooner via level 1 fights). So the conversion ration is 1 gold per 10 = 27 \* 6 = 162 gold average across an average length game. The base line minimum income for a champion in the 27 minutes gold per 10 is active is (20.4 \* 27 \* 6) + 500 starting gold = 3804.8 gold. > > Do refer to [lolalytics](https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?lane=support) for item completion times. You can compare with 9.22 by setting the filter to that patch. Just keep in mind the new support items don't show up as a completed item while the old ones did. > Check [champion.gg](https://champion.gg/statistics/?league=platplus#?sortBy=general.goldEarned&order=descend&roleSort=Support) (you may need to set filter to support or fix the sorting) for average income numbers. Keep in mind gold is only has meaning because of the power of items bought with it, so the stats gained from completing the quests of the income items do count as effective income for balance considerations. > > For bonus points take a gander at champions in other lanes on those sites, especially those that get played both in support and in a farming role. The problem with using average game time for calculations is that it's average, so a substantial number of games go beyond that, and that is when things start to breakdown. It also includes one sided stomps and hour long clown fiestas, which don't balance out. In an average game where you are now and where you used to get to is at relative parity, for most games. After that you have a dramatic drop off in ability to earn gold, particularly if your team falls behind to the point they can't really fight or take objectives because assist/kills and objective gold are your main sources of income since farm is objectively better on carries unless you have a strong reason to take it. That's going to feel bad for a lot of players and compound over time, because, if they have a lot of long games, at the end of the game, even though the support items are cheap, they will be even further from item parity with everyone else than they tended to be before. That will cause people to abandon the position, which is already under represented at all levels, causing more autofills, which will cause it's own issues, longer queues, toxicity, etc. It could, not super likely, but could even cause a noticeable drop in active player counts. Right now these are all hypothetical though, because it's going to take time to see how players adjust in order to try and overcome these potential issues.
: > [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ttV5rvE7,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-28T13:14:01.711+0000) > > You're spot on with LoL being a team game and absolutely relying on teamwork. However, removing solo queue and forcing people to only play the game in premade teams would vastly increase the barrier to entry. Solo queue games are a mess, but at least those people get to play the game. Given LoL's existence as a for-profit game, all that matters is profit. If Riot thinks they can increase profit and profit margins by turning the game into Wild Wacky Action Bike, that's what they'll do... and it's what they've been doing for years. So keep norms how it is where you can queue as a solo player, but leave ranked to full teams.
> [{quoted}](name=Dont Blame Me,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ttV5rvE7,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-11-28T18:19:36.297+0000) > > So keep norms how it is where you can queue as a solo player, but leave ranked to full teams. Wont work. Solo players want to have the satisfaction of seeing where they stand in relation to other players in skill in an easily digestible way. If you get rid of solo queue you lose a substantial part of the player base because without that sense of achievement a lot of them lose motivation to keep playing. Many solo players also live in more isolated areas so don't have local friends to play with and don't really have interest in forming those kinds of ties online, some are actually incapable of doing so through circumstances beyond their control. Solo queue goes away, League most likely goes away, at least in NA. As a college coach your job might also go away.
: I mean, you can cry about whatever worked for you before that doesn't anymore, I get it xD it's just adapting to changes is how League always worked to begin with.
> [{quoted}](name=Ashe mage AD,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kgts8swa,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T18:03:54.374+0000) > > I mean, you can cry about whatever worked for you before that doesn't anymore, I get it xD it's just adapting to changes is how League always worked to begin with. Aside from the tone that the I personally take from the first half of that (I could be taking it wrong for all I know), I honestly agree. Like I said, I vented and "passionately discussed" some of the numbers around the things that I personally dislike the most, but you are correct that we have to adapt to big changes every preseason and small changes throughout, and the sooner everyone that has a complaint gets it out of their system and those that refuse to deal with change leave, the sooner everyone will start looking for and finding ways to compensate for what was lost and make use of what was gained. Those that are happy will just be giving everyone else better footing to start from, because they got straight to working on finding the best ways to work with what the reality is now without wasting time mourning what we had gotten used to. I think there could have been better changes, and that they really were needed, what we had before wasn't good for the game long term. This is the change we got and we just have to find the best ways to use it now. There will be more changes in the future anyway.
: 3v3 rewards
I don't even know if I'd be eligible since I basically stopped playing 3v3s after it changed from the mini rift, but I feel pretty certain I had enough games before that. I don't think Riot gave us anything for it then though. They just decided it was close enough to the original so everyone would keep playing on there. Aside from the aesthetic I just didn't care for it anymore after that.
: I like the new AP execute one. The spellthief's/frostfang doesn't give me a small damage boost anymore so there's no reason to risk myself hitting the enemy for gold when I can just starcall the ranged minions for gold gen. The amount of gold plays out the same in the end so... No enemy interaction necessary. Huh....LMAORIOT
> [{quoted}](name=Reaper Soraka,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kgts8swa,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-28T17:44:23.797+0000) > > I like the new AP execute one. The spellthief's/frostfang doesn't give me a small damage boost anymore so there's no reason to risk myself hitting the enemy for gold when I can just starcall the ranged minions for gold gen. The amount of gold plays out the same in the end so... No enemy interaction necessary. > > Huh....LMAORIOT That's why I feel like they favor ranged. Bad match up, just take the trade off of a little less AD/AP for some more HP and farm from relative safety. Oh, you picked melee, well you dug that hole yourself, get up into threat range and just dodge everything is the best I can tell you.
Barcid (NA)
: 20 every 5 minutes, constantly updating. Have tried it. It counts back 5 minutes from your current point in time and keeps a running tally of how many minions you have killed - so you can lose the debuff and regain it a literal second later. God forbid you lose an inhib and have to help your team clear, because if you last-hit too much then you're pretty much draining your team's gold inadvertantly.
> [{quoted}](name=Barcid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hHW3UVzx,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T14:40:14.358+0000) > > 20 every 5 minutes, constantly updating. Have tried it. It counts back 5 minutes from your current point in time and keeps a running tally of how many minions you have killed - so you can lose the debuff and regain it a literal second later. God forbid you lose an inhib and have to help your team clear, because if you last-hit too much then you're pretty much draining your team's gold inadvertantly. This honestly my personal biggest issue, everything else can be worked around in some way, but if you're backed into a corner you get punished by the system while getting punished by the other team.
: Senna is broken.
The doom prophets and blind worshipers are probably all overstating her situation a bit. She needs nerfs, but likely not all the way to unplayable, and she may need some things buffed but her current state makes that almost impossible to say. As players get better with and against her the picture will hopefully get clearer.
: I personally love them, but like, ppl cry about gold generation, we now have gold generation. Let them cry I say, give us more goodies lol. {{sticker:zombie-nunu-hearts}}
> [{quoted}](name=Ashe mage AD,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kgts8swa,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-28T17:25:42.743+0000) > > I personally love them, but like, ppl cry about gold generation, we now have gold generation. > Let them cry I say, give us more goodies lol. > {{sticker:zombie-nunu-hearts}} Whether you like the changes or not is subjective, your personal feelings about them are as valid as anyone else's. After venting a bit myself and arguing numbers with a few people, I generally don't like them, but that's because I don't think they were the best way, not that change wasn't needed. Really needed.
: I actually find this change interesting because now I can start itemizing earlier in lane to make a bigger impact. The few times I had to play support, I didn't feel like I was short in gold or anything. Everything went pretty smoothly but I might have been just lucky.
> [{quoted}](name=HommeGoujon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kgts8swa,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-28T16:01:36.230+0000) > > I actually find this change interesting because now I can start itemizing earlier in lane to make a bigger impact. The few times I had to play support, I didn't feel like I was short in gold or anything. Everything went pretty smoothly but I might have been just lucky. Pros and cons. You get to first items earlier, but they are often to replace what was taken away. A lot of traditional supports don't scale particularly well with AD/AP. All the items favor ranged over melee a bit. In long games if your team is behind and can't get kills/objectives and you need to let your carries get all the farm, you fall behind much harder on gold, mainly in games over 25-30 minutes. If you have to clear minions to help your team after a certain amount you get penalized for that. You can get more AP/AD for the champions that do scale with them. There are AD options at all. The upgrades are free, but the active income goes away once completed (this is probably the most contentious point). The position is open to a lot more champs depending on team comps.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EeOBaEi4,comment-id=00040002000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T15:40:38.789+0000) > > That's the thing. Her win rate is that high with such a low pick and high ban rate, suggesting that she is over tuned or her kit is overloaded because people aren't getting to practice with her to the point of proficiency and winning despite that, even at high skill levels against players using champs that they are highly proficient with against her. Her kit itself can't be catching high skill players off so badly that they lose on their main/one trick out of shear surprise, because they should be used to playing against unfamiliar match ups in general because one tricks get filled to that lane and play their mains fairly often. There is no such thing as being used to playing against unfamiliar matchups, all you do when this occurs is play safe and passively. But Senna wins in the long run because she does scale well, her weakness is hard engages and early aggression, which is why she gets so badly wrecked by hook champions. Furthermore, 3,7% pickrate as a marksman is rather low, and according to lolalytics the presently best mains has about 57% winrate. A good Yasuo comparatively has 62%, Cait does as well. However granted how simple she is too play i will take a step back and admit that she is most likely too strong when played ADC, the gold from farming+free stats from passive likely cause her to scale up too fast. Her passive giving her free Crit+range coupled with her getting IE sooner than her support counterpart is a likely cause of why her winrate is so high, i mean if you get fed or scale too fast then skill becomes less relevant and counterplay less effective which is what i guess might be at work here.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EeOBaEi4,comment-id=000400020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T16:32:40.204+0000) > > There is no such thing as being used to playing against unfamiliar matchups, all you do when this occurs is play safe and passively. > > But Senna wins in the long run because she does scale well, her weakness is hard engages and early aggression, which is why she gets so badly wrecked by hook champions. > > Furthermore, 3,7% pickrate as a marksman is rather low, and according to lolalytics the presently best mains has about 57% winrate. > > A good Yasuo comparatively has 62%, Cait does as well. > > > However granted how simple she is too play i will take a step back and admit that she is most likely too strong when played ADC, the gold from farming+free stats from passive most likely cause her to scale up too fast. > > Her passive giving her free Crit+range coupled with her getting IE sooner than her support counterpart is a likely cause of why her winrate is so high, i mean if you get fed or scale too fast then skill becomes less relevant and counterplay less effective which is what i guess might be at work here. That Yassuo main probably has literally thousands of games on the champ and has played every possible match up several times, while that Senna most certainly has far fewer on the champ and near the same win rate. I really don't think we disagree very much though, probably just details in truth. She probably needs some nerfs, and it's probably to early to say exactly what and how heavy they should be, because you haven't really established her true skill floor and ceiling yet. The players that have pushed her win rate up, probably would tell you that while they have a good understanding of how to player well they haven't reached what they would consider full mastery of her kit. At the same time other players haven't locked down an optimum method of shutting her down in a truely consistent manner that works even against high skill players. It's really what happens with a lot of new champs on release, when they have so many levers to pull and push for balance. There's just somethings a bit too high, a few might be too low as well, and some maybe covering up which way some things need to be adjusted to really be considered healthy and balanced. I don't agree with the knee jerk day one reactions to nerf her into the ground, but just looking at her kit before release gave me a few reasons to pause and say this or that might not be good for the game as is.
: > [{quoted}](name=Its Yuu and Mi,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EeOBaEi4,comment-id=000400020000,timestamp=2019-11-28T14:23:19.470+0000) > > She has a 55% winrate as an ADC in Plat+ atm. Which site are you looking at? U.gg Lists her at 51% Op.GG at 53% league of graphs at 52% Ohhh Lolalytics, 55% winrate and 3,7% pickrate. But yknow,,,,,Cait has 51% winrate and 23% pickrate..... we could also look at Jinx, Ashe or Jhin who all have 52-53% winrate and 13% pickrate. The only notable aspect of her is the banrate which is indeed sky high, but people dont actually ban shit even if it´s strong , that´s not all it takes since people mainly ban what they dont want to play against, just look at Ashe! Was a point when she has like 30% pickrate, 55% winrate and despite that her banrate never crossed 5% until her eventual nerfs as far as i know, she was never sufficiently annoying. Meanwhile some like Yasuo, even when he had 48% winrate and 10% pickrate, still had like 50-60% banrate just because people dont care to deal with his ass. Senna? She is pretty much inting by default regardless of what she wants if the enemy side picks a hook support so she doesnt lack counterplay, and even without a hook present and she can spank some like {{champion:22}} out of lane she still loses the game once Ashe hits 6. Senna? OP as a ADC? I do not buy it. Annoying in lane yes, but not OP.
> [{quoted}](name=Thefrostyviking,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EeOBaEi4,comment-id=0004000200000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T15:26:45.214+0000) > > Which site are you looking at? > > U.gg Lists her at 51% > > Op.GG at 53% > > league of graphs at 52% > > Ohhh > > Lolalytics, 55% winrate and 3,7% pickrate. > > But yknow,,,,,Cait has 51% winrate and 23% pickrate..... we could also look at Jinx, Ashe or Jhin who all have 52-53% winrate and 13% pickrate. > > The only notable aspect of her is the banrate which is indeed sky high, but people dont actually ban shit even if it´s strong , that´s not all it takes since people mainly ban what they dont want to play against, just look at Ashe! > > Was a point when she has like 30% pickrate, 55% winrate and despite that her banrate never crossed 5% until her eventual nerfs as far as i know, she was never sufficiently annoying. > > Meanwhile some like Yasuo, even when he had 48% winrate and 10% pickrate, still had like 50-60% banrate just because people dont care to deal with his ass. > > Senna? She is pretty much inting by default regardless of what she wants if the enemy side picks a hook support so she doesnt lack counterplay, and even without a hook present and she can spank some like {{champion:22}} out of lane she still loses the game once Ashe hits 6. > > Senna? OP as a ADC? I do not buy it. > > Annoying in lane yes, but not OP. That's the thing. Her win rate is that high with such a low pick and high ban rate, suggesting that she is over tuned or her kit is overloaded because people aren't getting to practice with her to the point of proficiency and winning despite that, even at high skill levels against players using champs that they are highly proficient with against her. Her kit itself can't be catching high skill players off so badly that they lose on their main/one trick out of shear surprise, because they should be used to playing against unfamiliar match ups in general because one tricks get filled to that lane and play their mains fairly often.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=V0bAZmR2,comment-id=00010000000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T15:02:33.955+0000) > > People are egotistical. Especially really competitive ones, so it's the easiest way to manipulate them, and if they just say well I'm going to do what I want anyway, they're the real problem in everyone else's eyes and you're free to do whatever needs to be done so that you're good for the rest of the game. Also just assuming I'm playing with Americans mostly, we have a very egotistical and self important culture. Yes it seems you assume you are playing with NPCs That way of thinking is fine after all it's soloq one vs the world
> [{quoted}](name=Thingamajig,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=V0bAZmR2,comment-id=000100000000000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T15:10:26.685+0000) > > Yes it seems you assume you are playing with NPCs > That way of thinking is fine > after all it's soloq > one vs the world Solo queue does have a lot of that I must carry the whole team every time attitude and that's part of what I'm suggesting you attempt to take advantage of. "I just want to help you carry me Senpai"{{sticker:sg-jinx}} , and if they decide to be an ass regardless, that's on them and you're just trying to get along and win without holding your team back, because they can't be reasonable. It even works if you want to go hard. Or if a girl wants to make a guy her bitch without him realizing it, or a guy wants to alienate a girl from her friends so you can be a mentally abusive %%%%. It's league though everyone's a %%%%, so you don't have to feel to bad about manipulating them for 25-45 minutes, unless it's someone you queued up with on purpose or one of the few genuinely nice people that play, but they'll probably work with you without prompting.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=V0bAZmR2,comment-id=000100000000000100010000,timestamp=2019-11-28T14:40:14.454+0000) > > appealing to their ego and swallowing your pride that would mean you assume you are playing wtih NPCs
> [{quoted}](name=Thingamajig,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=V0bAZmR2,comment-id=0001000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-28T14:51:58.461+0000) > > that would mean you assume you are playing wtih NPCs People are egotistical. Especially really competitive ones, so it's the easiest way to manipulate them, and if they just say well I'm going to do what I want anyway, they're the real problem in everyone else's eyes and you're free to do whatever needs to be done so that you're good for the rest of the game. Also just assuming I'm playing with Americans mostly, we have a very egotistical and self important culture. You ever heard Doublelift talk, he's got skills, but also knows he's arrogant, to a fault. A lot of this is based on conflict de-escalation techniques.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=V0bAZmR2,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-28T12:50:53.723+0000) > > This right here. I don't do PvP a lot, but I'm a support main when I do and one of the first things I do is ask my lane partner if they want to play passive or aggressive early. Communication is especially powerful in a duo lane because unless one of you goes god mode in a 1v2 you are dependent on each other for survival much less getting ahead. Just getting on the same page if your opponents aren't in tune with each other can win the game from lane phase. As simple as "hey I'm not really comfortable with hard pushing" is great because it also makes them feel like your taking responsibility by doubting your own ability to play that way without making them feel like you think they're a problem. If they react badly to that then they're a dick and if they die because you really didn't feel you could have stopped it you get to say "I'm sorry but I told you that didn't think I could do my part for that play style." If they flame you then they weren't planning on working with anyone that wouldn't do exactly what they wanted anyway and you can adjust accordingly, but the majority of the time they'll adjust to work with you because they want to win. if they had something in mind they should say, but the always argument i get is "chill dude you get the gold share" in those situations, if he wants an dragon or something he should tell us about it, but just madlad start pushing the lane and expecting everyone to understand whatever his genius mind have, especially when the jungler is not interesting in taking the dragon to begin with and enemy bot have advatange over us and better vision.
> [{quoted}](name=Garen is adopted,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=V0bAZmR2,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-28T13:48:08.000+0000) > > if they had something in mind they should say, but the always argument i get is "chill dude you get the gold share" in those situations, if he wants an dragon or something he should tell us about it, but just madlad start pushing the lane and expecting everyone to understand whatever his genius mind have, especially when the jungler is not interesting in taking the dragon to begin with and enemy bot have advatange over us and better vision. That's why you initiate the conversation early, so that you can know how to manipulate the narrative and what you need to say for the best outcome for your team. Then you're free to do whatever you need to ensure that you can take care of what you need to later in the game and give your team the best chance to win.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=V0bAZmR2,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-28T12:50:53.723+0000) > > This right here. I don't do PvP a lot, but I'm a support main when I do and one of the first things I do is ask my lane partner if they want to play passive or aggressive early. Communication is especially powerful in a duo lane because unless one of you goes god mode in a 1v2 you are dependent on each other for survival much less getting ahead. Just getting on the same page if your opponents aren't in tune with each other can win the game from lane phase. As simple as "hey I'm not really comfortable with hard pushing" is great because it also makes them feel like your taking responsibility by doubting your own ability to play that way without making them feel like you think they're a problem. If they react badly to that then they're a dick and if they die because you really didn't feel you could have stopped it you get to say "I'm sorry but I told you that didn't think I could do my part for that play style." If they flame you then they weren't planning on working with anyone that wouldn't do exactly what they wanted anyway and you can adjust accordingly, but the majority of the time they'll adjust to work with you because they want to win. when you are playing a hard counter matchup and your laner wants to play passive thats where you do what you have to and if he ints he ints im not going to play a lane wrong and lose my win condition just because my laner is spineless id rather lose the lane trying to play my win condition than lose my won lane because my support/ad is dumb
> [{quoted}](name=Thingamajig,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=V0bAZmR2,comment-id=00010000000000010001,timestamp=2019-11-28T14:22:14.943+0000) > > when you are playing a hard counter matchup and your laner wants to play passive > thats where you do what you have to and if he ints he ints > > im not going to play a lane wrong and lose my win condition just because my laner is spineless > id rather lose the lane trying to play my win condition than lose my won lane because my support/ad is dumb That's kind of what I'm getting at, but if you both believe you're right appealing to their ego and swallowing your pride a bit might sway them to try your way, whatever that may be, then when you're proven right they'll be happy because they came out ahead, and if they don't listen, you do what you need to and they come out the bad guy, so the rest of the team will still work with you. If they work with you they get to feel good believing they "strengthened the weakest link" and will usually be easier to sway later because now they like you more and trust you because you "recognized your own weaknesses", which means you might have the intelligence to recognize your teams strengths to make calls.
: > [{quoted}](name=blindasleep,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=V0bAZmR2,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-28T12:50:53.723+0000) > > This right here. I don't do PvP a lot, but I'm a support main when I do and one of the first things I do is ask my lane partner if they want to play passive or aggressive early. Communication is especially powerful in a duo lane because unless one of you goes god mode in a 1v2 you are dependent on each other for survival much less getting ahead. Just getting on the same page if your opponents aren't in tune with each other can win the game from lane phase. As simple as "hey I'm not really comfortable with hard pushing" is great because it also makes them feel like your taking responsibility by doubting your own ability to play that way without making them feel like you think they're a problem. If they react badly to that then they're a dick and if they die because you really didn't feel you could have stopped it you get to say "I'm sorry but I told you that didn't think I could do my part for that play style." If they flame you then they weren't planning on working with anyone that wouldn't do exactly what they wanted anyway and you can adjust accordingly, but the majority of the time they'll adjust to work with you because they want to win. if they had something in mind they should say, but the always argument i get is "chill dude you get the gold share" in those situations, if he wants an dragon or something he should tell us about it, but just madlad start pushing the lane and expecting everyone to understand whatever his genius mind have, especially when the jungler is not interesting in taking the dragon to begin with and enemy bot have advatange over us and better vision.
> [{quoted}](name=Garen is adopted,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=V0bAZmR2,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-28T13:48:08.000+0000) > > if they had something in mind they should say, but the always argument i get is "chill dude you get the gold share" in those situations, if he wants an dragon or something he should tell us about it, but just madlad start pushing the lane and expecting everyone to understand whatever his genius mind have, especially when the jungler is not interesting in taking the dragon to begin with and enemy bot have advatange over us and better vision. That's why I said to place the blame in yourself for not being able to support that play style. It's a trick to appeal to their ego, "if you do this anyway and it goes wrong then I've already warned you that my skills at that method aren't good enough to help you succeed". It's the "I'm bad at that and can't adjust to what you're doing so if you want to win you might want to adjust to me so we can execute better" position. Doesn't matter if you believe it or even if it's true or not. Then if they do it anyway, everyone can look at chat and see that you tried to warn them, just don't harp on that point after pointing it out ,so everyone else is also less likely to flame you if your partner starts going off and they'll still try to work with you, even if your lane partner doesn't. If your partner doesn't adjust at all or tilts you just do what you can to best help your team and only worry about your duo when you absolutely need to. If they flame, just don't engage with them in chat unless they are saying or doing something helpful, just ignore it otherwise and let them scream into the void. In everyone else's eyes you warned them and can salvage the reputation you sacrificed by simply helping your team in the best way you can, even if that is by just holding a losing lane as long as possible, and getting out of lane phase in the best condition you can with an uncooperative lane mate so that you can still contribute to the game. You may have to adjust your own build/strategy, a bit because of that disadvantage, but it's better than losing your shit too.
iSennª (NA)
: I have enought of hooks support dominating the bot lane roster really...
> [{quoted}](name=iSennª,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EeOBaEi4,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-28T02:06:08.488+0000) > > Always {{champion:53}} {{champion:111}} {{champion:555}} or {{champion:412}} ... I'm Gold 4 and I only see those bullshit champs every game.. people can't play anything else ?? > > > Edit: I play her ADC only , not support... Senna's weakness is supposed to be her general mobility, stands still to attack with a long animation, so you should expect hooks, they can almost always be useful, especially on a near stationary target. Work on your positioning.
: Lets be real, they took the 5 years of actual balance and team based gameplay and turned it into a fast paced clusterfuck of dmg and who can instakill who first. Theres no real team aspect anymore, and even if there is, its in the (rare) 30-40 minute games when its about the objectives like dragon, which by the way, are now MANDATORY and a 100% win condition, even without the (insane as fuck) elder dragon. Champions who need to hard scale are fucked because games almost never last that long, so they get left in the dirt and more often than not, dont get any changes to compensate for it. Some good examples are control mages like {{champion:90}} {{champion:112}} (yes im aware vik got changed recently, but i mean more so how they deal their damage) tanks or champs that are designed to fill a niche {{champion:3}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:33}} , champs that NEED to get to hard mid game/late game to actually do things {{champion:38}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:42}} Just to name a few in each roll, while assassins and burst mages get even more tools to instakill and end the game fast not just item wise, but things like massive mobility spikes for no reason, and unnecessary ccs or 'execute dmg' (looking at you,{{champion:246}}), and some adcs being pick/banned because they are the best in slot that only need one item to get going. Now regardless if you think those champs need buffs or nerfs, i hope you understand the point im making. On the topic of those dragon souls, they are ridiculous, maybe if the game was ACTUALLY slower paced, those would be a good thing to have and play around, but with how fast it goes, its just basically an instawin if you arent a jungler who cant take dragon without the team, since youll only get half way through before the entire enemy team comes down on you and steals it. Solo que isnt the main problem, and if it was, i think solo que should stay but get rid of duo que, the real problem is how they are trying to divert it into this TDM based shitshow, with maybe a few mandatory objectives (towers and nexus, but the towers do fuck all anymore anyways), and because of that power creep is unchecked. Unless we can get them to acknowledge the creep and fix it, balance the game based on ALL ranks instead of just pro play, and fix the MULTITUDE of bugs that they seem to keep ignoring, then i dont think its gonna get any better. {{sticker:zombie-nunu-bummed}}
> [{quoted}](name=Exodus247,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ttV5rvE7,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-28T12:59:46.021+0000) > > Lets be real, they took the 5 years of actual balance and team based gameplay and turned it into a fast paced clusterfuck of dmg and who can instakill who first. Theres no real team aspect anymore, and even if there is, its in the (rare) 30-40 minute games when its about the objectives like dragon, which by the way, are now MANDATORY and a 100% win condition, even without the (insane as fuck) elder dragon. > > Champions who need to hard scale are fucked because games almost never last that long, so they get left in the dirt and more often than not, dont get any changes to compensate for it. > > Some good examples are control mages like {{champion:90}} {{champion:112}} (yes im aware vik got changed recently, but i mean more so how they deal their damage) > > tanks or champs that are designed to fill a niche {{champion:3}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:33}} , > > champs that NEED to get to hard mid game/late game to actually do things {{champion:38}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:42}} > Just to name a few in each roll, while assassins and burst mages get even more tools to instakill and end the game fast not just item wise, but things like massive mobility spikes for no reason, and unnecessary ccs or 'execute dmg' (looking at you,{{champion:246}}), and some adcs being pick/banned because they are the best in slot that only need one item to get going. Now regardless if you think those champs need buffs or nerfs, i hope you understand the point im making. > > On the topic of those dragon souls, they are ridiculous, maybe if the game was ACTUALLY slower paced, those would be a good thing to have and play around, but with how fast it goes, its just basically an instawin if you arent a jungler who cant take dragon without the team, since youll only get half way through before the entire enemy team comes down on you and steals it. > > Solo que isnt the main problem, and if it was, i think solo que should stay but get rid of duo que, the real problem is how they are trying to divert it into this TDM based shitshow, with maybe a few mandatory objectives (towers and nexus, but the towers do fuck all anymore anyways), and because of that power creep is unchecked. Unless we can get them to acknowledge the creep and fix it, balance the game based on ALL ranks instead of just pro play, and fix the MULTITUDE of bugs that they seem to keep ignoring, then i dont think its gonna get any better. > {{sticker:zombie-nunu-bummed}} At the highest levels of organized play macro is still very important, particularly in setting up and forcing a deciding fight. I do agree that the game has shifted hard in general, even in organized play, to the only win condition that really matters most of the time is if you have the damage to end during the death timers after winning a single fight. Where as you used to see games end with both teams fighting it out at a nexus or base tower a lot more than a fast push, potentially through multiple towers, after a fight at baron or dragon pit any time beyond about 25-30 minutes.
oOHiram (NA)
: Support and their items are fine
> [{quoted}](name=oOHiram,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kgts8swa,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-28T11:54:06.794+0000) > > Unpopular opinion, bite me. > Boards love to complain it is insane. We'll eventually adjust and work around it, most of us hope with at least some adjustment, and we'll fall off of complaining through attrition if not satisfaction, usually happens during preseason. We also realize that posting on the boards is kind of screaming into the void, but it's cathartic, so come on man, just let us get it out and if you have reasons that you feel support your position express them constructively, you might change a few minds or at least calm a few people down faster if you make a good point or two. Everyone knows the board spam can be grating, but saying things that could set off rants will only make it last longer.
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blindasleep

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