: The fuck is SR?
> [{quoted}](name=Triistana,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ITHPP6nX,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-12-13T22:58:38.687+0000) > > The fuck is SR? Overwatch's version of LP
: Meanwhile, they're *adding* it to HotS. XD
> [{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ITHPP6nX,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-12-13T18:01:38.224+0000) > > Meanwhile, they're *adding* it to HotS. XD And HotS is considered casual as fuck so this only further emphasizes the point.
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yl0wxfU3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-13T07:38:23.471+0000) > > The entire foundation needs to be scrapped, TTM. Like, dead serious. > > - The ult is super basic, but super influential. It's basically just a fat STOP button. > > - The auras may or may not be super influential (they are, obviously), but they don't FEEL like it and it's hard for people to realize that you're getting something started with them. They ramp up in the later stages of the game, but until then they're REALLY crummy. > > - The active abilities, save her W, are basically horse shit. > > - Her power chords, although *nice* to have, are outdated. What these power chords bring is actually cool, more or less. The *application* is done clumsily...at least for 2017, moving onto 2018. > > The problem we have here is that Sona's ult is considered super strong because it's highly effective AND super easy to learn how to use. With an ult like that, Riot's not gonna want to give Sona a stronger basic kit. > > The OTHER problem is that Sona's auras are *always* split 5 ways, even when there's 1 to 2 people around. So you give someone a shield? Your shield is gonna HAVE to be crap because that shield *could be many more shields at the same value.* Give someone a little AA buff? That, too, has to be crap because it *easily could be 5 AA buffs.* > > THEN there's the issue where Riot encourages a 325 movement speed Enchanter who just had her armor and defensive spell nerfed to walk within a dash's range of someone to use an auto-attack. Hell, *before* all this, we already saw a Kog'Maw and a Lulu just straight decimate a Sona off of a Kog'Maw's W during Worlds. Like...the hell? I've always said and will always say this: 550 range makes NO sense for enchanters to be fighting at. Changing Janna to that? Makes no sense (like, the dumb passive doesn't add enough damage to make it worthwhile). Sona still being like that? ALSO makes no sense. You're just asking to get wiped. > > Honestly, Sona can be a offense-prone, aoe enchanter that loves team fights. I love Sona for that very thing. HOWEVER, the auras? Gotta go. The automated spells? Also gotta go. The ult? ...I actually kinda like the ult...but it COULD go if it had to. League in 2018 doesn't embrace this play pattern anymore. This is just me being honest. in other words "delete Sona and then make a new champion name Sona" yeah that is surely going to go well with everyone that enjoys playing her
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yl0wxfU3,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-12-13T07:41:02.710+0000) > > in other words "delete Sona and then make a new champion name Sona" yeah that is surely going to go well with everyone that enjoys playing her So you LIKE going around in circles?
: Sona's balance problem
The entire foundation needs to be scrapped, TTM. Like, dead serious. - The ult is super basic, but super influential. It's basically just a fat STOP button. - The auras may or may not be super influential (they are, obviously), but they don't FEEL like it and it's hard for people to realize that you're getting something started with them. They ramp up in the later stages of the game, but until then they're REALLY crummy. - The active abilities, save her W, are basically horse shit. - Her power chords, although *nice* to have, are outdated. What these power chords bring is actually cool, more or less. The *application* is done clumsily...at least for 2017, moving onto 2018. The problem we have here is that Sona's ult is considered super strong because it's highly effective AND super easy to learn how to use. With an ult like that, Riot's not gonna want to give Sona a stronger basic kit. The OTHER problem is that Sona's auras are *always* split 5 ways, even when there's 1 to 2 people around. So you give someone a shield? Your shield is gonna HAVE to be crap because that shield *could be many more shields at the same value.* Give someone a little AA buff? That, too, has to be crap because it *easily could be 5 AA buffs.* THEN there's the issue where Riot encourages a 325 movement speed Enchanter who just had her armor and defensive spell nerfed to walk within a dash's range of someone to use an auto-attack. Hell, *before* all this, we already saw a Kog'Maw and a Lulu just straight decimate a Sona off of a Kog'Maw's W during Worlds. Like...the hell? I've always said and will always say this: 550 range makes NO sense for enchanters to be fighting at. Changing Janna to that? Makes no sense (like, the dumb passive doesn't add enough damage to make it worthwhile). Sona still being like that? ALSO makes no sense. You're just asking to get wiped. Honestly, Sona can be a offense-prone, aoe enchanter that loves team fights. I love Sona for that very thing. HOWEVER, the auras? Gotta go. The automated spells? Also gotta go. The ult? ...I actually kinda like the ult...but it COULD go if it had to. League in 2018 doesn't embrace this play pattern anymore. This is just me being honest.
  Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PG1qbdk8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-12-12T09:42:05.458+0000) > > Nami is doing as well as Sona was. If you don't want to play Sona anymore, just play Nami. Not really no... The other week she was in 9th place out of all the supports. She's in 11th place now and it's still dropping.
> [{quoted}](name=Charyzard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PG1qbdk8,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-12-12T16:02:14.852+0000) > > Not really no... > > The other week she was in 9th place out of all the supports. > > She's in 11th place now and it's still dropping. Nami's win rate is like 52% on Lolalytics...which is where Sona WAS before the Q changes. If you want, just play Nami. If you just want to play the most broken support in the game, play Leona.
needHymn (NA)
: Well you asked where she is doing so well. A duel would be a great way to see if she's so bad compared to other supports, as you suggest. But I don't think we can duel... different regions. Oh well. Perhaps we can duel with text. You're leona, and I'm sona. Leona: shoots out her long sword stabber ability thing which has only *25 range* more than sona's Q. Sona: back steps 1 pixel to avoid it. Sona: steps forward 1 pixel to be in range to Q. Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. Sona: first blood.
> [{quoted}](name=needHymn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ioskIui,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T23:35:27.124+0000) > > Well you asked where she is doing so well. A duel would be a great way to see if she's so bad compared to other supports, as you suggest. But I don't think we can duel... different regions. Oh well. Perhaps we can duel with text. You're leona, and I'm sona. > > Leona: shoots out her long sword stabber ability thing which has only *25 range* more than sona's Q. > Sona: back steps 1 pixel to avoid it. > Sona: steps forward 1 pixel to be in range to Q. > Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. > Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. > Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. > Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. > Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. > Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. > Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. > Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. > Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. > Sona: Q's Leona for 10% of leona's HP. > Sona: first blood. Why are you getting hit by Sona's Q bolts 10 times when you have higher range on your primary engage tool than her Q bolts?
: Sooo Riot, about Sona?
> [{quoted}](name=RedCyclone,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ioskIui,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-11T22:44:55.682+0000) > > Do you really think locking Sona behind a massive scaling wall of items and levels is a good idea? Probs not. > Do you think her kit is so unhealthy it needs to be forced to be bad? Yes. Just like Kayle or Yi, Sona's "justified" in her ridiculous late game through her now equally ridiculous itemization/level requirements. > If you think yes then is Sona going to be getting a rework? No because they have too many other projects > It's always so difficult to get anyone from Riot to speak up when they nerf Sona, happened with her rework, happened with previous hard nerfs in the past dating back to the season 1 healer support purge They don't because it's hard to say "It's gonna be alright, guys" about a champ they have very little intention to put work into.
: I've Been Feeling Kinda "Lost" this Preseason
Nami is doing as well as Sona was. If you don't want to play Sona anymore, just play Nami.
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKgA9o4R,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-11T18:03:47.802+0000) > > I feel like everyone that makes this blind comparison between Zoe and Nidalee are just not facing the truth or are actually bad at this game. or you know we actually played old nidalee she literally takes EVEYTHING bad about old nidalee and make it worse nuclear tipped tree trunks? oh well now you can throw them at different angles and from fog even when your not in fog.. oh and btw, did i mention they're also AOE? damage amp on traps? oh well don't worry we not only gave her a damage amp.. we made it goes extra distance through walls and provide a hard cc and just in case that wasn't enough, we have her a completely rng based system to steal summoners that could auto win her lane. free {{summoner:12}} anyone? does she have nid's heal or mobility not quite... but she has a CC which means they cant get near her... she has longer range than old nid... and she does MORE damage and is EASIER to hit with becuase you CCed the enemy... she is quite literally everyting bad about old nidalee wraped up into one champsion and made even worse.. sincerely -ANOTHER nidalee main..
> [{quoted}](name=SwiftKitten88,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKgA9o4R,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2017-12-12T04:53:14.700+0000) > > or you know we actually played old nidalee > > she literally takes EVEYTHING bad about old nidalee and make it worse > > nuclear tipped tree trunks? oh well now you can throw them at different angles and from fog even when your not in fog.. oh and btw, did i mention they're also AOE? > > damage amp on traps? oh well don't worry we not only gave her a damage amp.. we made it goes extra distance through walls and provide a hard cc > > and just in case that wasn't enough, we have her a completely rng based system to steal summoners that could auto win her lane. free {{summoner:12}} anyone? > > does she have nid's heal or mobility not quite... but she has a CC which means they cant get near her... she has longer range than old nid... and she does MORE damage and is EASIER to hit with becuase you CCed the enemy... > > > she is quite literally everyting bad about old nidalee wraped up into one champsion and made even worse.. > > sincerely > -ANOTHER nidalee main.. Here's the thing: I don't have the patience to argue *every whiny, close-minded poster* into a corner about this shit over and over. ALL you guys are comparing her to is the fucking "damage amp/distance traveled" mechanic. Literally that's fucking it. Everything else just adds fuel to your hysteria. Why bother with one of you when I have to do it again with another one of you? This thread is FILLED with counter-arguments to shit you said from posters that said it before you. I literally can't be bothered to do it again.
: machine gun jhin let's go
> [{quoted}](name=MysteriousBootie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xyw8oJqP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-11T22:56:58.148+0000) > > machine gun jhin let's go More like rail gun Jhin.
hoyohai (NA)
: O. Then again Sona has a higher winrate than Ryze. Wait whats IBG?
> [{quoted}](name=hoyohai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RuihF8QF,comment-id=00000002000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T04:43:25.284+0000) > > O. Then again Sona has a higher winrate than Ryze. > Wait whats IBG? Once again. Difference: {{champion:13}} 's worth isn't proven in solo queue. It's proven in the LCS. Ryze can be perfectly fine, power-wise, and still have generally abysmal win rates because he's hard as hell to play and requires coordination to use his ult well, something we won't have much of in solo queue (but may have in in Riot's upcoming project). {{champion:37}} 's the *exact opposite.* Even when crushing solo queue, she had a 30% LCS win rate. If Sona's "meh" in solo queue, she's basically just shit because there's *literally* no reason to pick her, regardless of how you look at it. Right now, you could just pick Nami and be done with it, as far as the stats go.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=HalcyonDweller,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RuihF8QF,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T23:19:55.507+0000) > > Correlation does not equal causation. We still have no evidence to connect these events to the opinions or intentions of Riot(ers). Little old, still applies. https://imgur.com/4jfzIfM
> [{quoted}](name=GigglesO,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RuihF8QF,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T23:52:22.362+0000) > > Little old, still applies. > > https://imgur.com/4jfzIfM Can't we apply that to why they won't *buff* Yasuo outside of major cases like this current one?
hoyohai (NA)
: Does that make a champion bad? If so Ryze needs to be buffed as well as Sona.
> [{quoted}](name=hoyohai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RuihF8QF,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2017-12-12T04:20:04.542+0000) > > Does that make a champion bad? If so Ryze needs to be buffed as well as Sona. Difference: {{item:3070}} is a mid lane mage item {{champion:13}} is a mid lane mage {{champion:37}} **is a bot lane support** This is the equivalent of a mage being *dependent* on something like Frozen Heart or IBG. No one would appreciate that.
: no it means shes already borderline balanced but probably OP because people already have these high % win rates on a NEW champion.
> [{quoted}](name=CrestKnight,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKgA9o4R,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T23:04:21.226+0000) > > no it means shes already borderline balanced but probably OP because people already have these high % win rates on a NEW champion. ...you don't know either way, and you already backtracked a tad bit by saying "already borderline balanced". So what's the freaking hate mongering? If she comes out op eventually, nerf her like we do EVERYONE else. Until then? Calm down and learn what she does. If you play mid, learn the lane. If you don't, find out what you should do about her when team fights start. It's not the end of the world if one Zoe beats you up a bit. It's a problem if a ton of them do, which clearly isn't happening. I'm just trying my part to fizzle out the hysteria, get me?
: and then you look at a playerbase of challenger mid laners who have an 83% win rate over 12 games on it already laughing and along the way "this champion is busted, they literally cant do anything, its so sad" from your own page Best Zoe Platinum+ Name Win Games 1 By myself 59.02% 61 2 I Yoloshi kun 66.04% 53 3 I WAENA132 67.92% 53 4 II UnleashTheBEAST 54.93% 71 5 I Real Russian Man 58% 50 6 II Erick Dota 53.03% 66 7 III Challenger T1 62.5% 56 8 III CaRa 53.45% 58 9 III Disney Sent Me 60.38% 53 10 III 미 티 55.88% 102
> [{quoted}](name=CrestKnight,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKgA9o4R,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T22:06:27.451+0000) > > and then you look at a playerbase of challenger mid laners who have an 83% win rate over 12 games on it already laughing and along the way "this champion is busted, they literally cant do anything, its so sad" > > from your own page > > Best Zoe Platinum+ > > Name Win Games > 1 > By myself > 59.02% 61 > 2 > I > Yoloshi kun > 66.04% 53 > 3 > I > WAENA132 > 67.92% 53 > 4 > II > UnleashTheBEAST > 54.93% 71 > 5 > I > Real Russian Man > 58% 50 > 6 > II > Erick Dota > 53.03% 66 > 7 > III > Challenger T1 > 62.5% 56 > 8 > III > CaRa > 53.45% 58 > 9 > III > Disney Sent Me > 60.38% 53 > 10 > III > 미 티 > 55.88% 102 And off of that logic: https://beast.lol/oce/hotchelli We have a challenger Orianna player on a 60% win rate on more games than ANY of these guys playing Zoe, all in a higher elo. Should Ori be nerfed, or is someone allowed to develop their skills on a freaking champion without someone getting salty over it?
: its called learning to adapt to changes not building the same things no matter what making her nerfs more drastic then they really are
> [{quoted}](name=UnboundHades,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RuihF8QF,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-11T20:17:39.729+0000) > > its called learning to adapt to changes not building the same things no matter what making her nerfs more drastic then they really are ...we already build tears of the goddess.
: All your talk goes to shit when you realize that her cooldowns are all very very low and so are her mana costs. If she were to have high cooldowns like rest of burst mages nobody would complain. Funniest suggestion is to cleanse a CC that has a 5 second cooldown hahahahhahahahah what a fucking counterplay.
> [{quoted}](name=DoktorKaiser,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEp0YMHf,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T21:12:20.845+0000) > > All your talk goes to shit when you realize that her cooldowns are all very very low and so are her mana costs. If she were to have high cooldowns like rest of burst mages nobody would complain. Funniest suggestion is to cleanse a CC that has a 5 second cooldown hahahahhahahahah what a fucking counterplay. Not every burst mage has high cds.
: no release champ has ever hovered so close to 50% before, shes actually OP with bronze players dragging down the average ATM.
> [{quoted}](name=CrestKnight,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKgA9o4R,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T20:12:34.661+0000) > > no release champ has ever hovered so close to 50% before, shes actually OP with bronze players dragging down the average ATM. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Zoe/ Diamond win rate for one week: 47% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Zoe/ Plat win rate for one week: 46.5% EVEN IF she was low-key op, you shouldn't be trying to preemptively nerf her based off a hunch. If she ACTUALLY becomes a problem, then ACTUALLY nerf her. That simple.
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKgA9o4R,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-11T18:03:47.802+0000) > > I feel like everyone that makes this blind comparison between Zoe and Nidalee are just not facing the truth or are actually bad at this game. hey look its a support main that doesnt play either champion
> [{quoted}](name=UnboundHades,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKgA9o4R,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-12-11T20:14:44.033+0000) > > hey look its a support main that doesnt play either champion You don't have to play every character in a game to know what a character in a game does. This is like saying I can't POSSIBLY know that Nasus is a split pushing juggernaut champ with a slow.
: Yes old Nidalee's kit and Zoe's are very different but the over all play style is either identical or nearly the same
> [{quoted}](name=HyperionX67,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEp0YMHf,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T20:41:06.913+0000) > > Yes old Nidalee's kit and Zoe's are very different but the over all play style is either identical or nearly the same Edit: Wrong reply to the wrong person. What I meant to say to you is: No, their play styles aren't similar.
: "stand behind minions" great, oh wait, she just ulted over them. but wait, her E plop down is the size of texas meaning i cant stand on top of the minions either. netting NO SAFE SPOT to stand in without being at huge huge risk. standing in minion line only works pre 6. after 6 you back the fudge off zoe. let her push in, and then gank her for being overextended.
> [{quoted}](name=CrestKnight,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKgA9o4R,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T19:58:44.519+0000) > > "stand behind minions" great, oh wait, she just ulted over them. If you ult over minions, *does her Q ult with her?* NO. Ulting through minions would be for landing E without throwing it through a wall, if anything. > but wait, her E plop down is the size of texas meaning i cant stand on top of the minions either. They nerfed the trap range already. > netting NO SAFE SPOT to stand in without being at huge huge risk. Misinformation via hyperbole. > standing in minion line only works pre 6. after 6 you back the fudge off zoe. let her push in, and then gank her for being overextended. I mean, fine, but you can also just beat her. She has a 46% win rate. Think more highly of yourself.
: Yes there are few large differences : - old Nidalee didn't have hard CC on extremely long range and low cooldown that amplified her damage so that she can 1 shot anyone even with no items - her spears are 2 times slower than Zoe Q thus twice easier to dodge - she couldn't throw redemption bot at lvl 3 or randomly kill you with a gunblade at lvl 4 or flash 5 times in a row or spam GLP and protobelt at you for harass - spears don't have splash damage and Nidalee had to go melee mode to waveclear properly - and most important - Nidalee never actually 1 shot people unless she was MASSIVELY ahead, Zoe can 1 shot anyone even without many items at all stages of the game even if you are tanky, that is why she is the biggest cancer I have seen since Yasuo, I wonder who designed them both hmmmm....
> [{quoted}](name=DoktorKaiser,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEp0YMHf,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-12-11T18:18:04.918+0000) > > Yes there are few large differences : > > - old Nidalee didn't have hard CC on extremely long range and low cooldown that amplified her damage so that she can 1 shot anyone even with no items Once again: 1) Overall distance depends on walls. Nidalee's spears just go far as fuck for free. 2) Zoe's cc can be fucking cleansed, so buy a damn cleanse or buy a Banshee's. > - her spears are 2 times slower than Zoe Q thus twice easier to dodge And Zoe's stars don't go nearly as far unless Zoe herself moves closer to retaliation range. She also gives A HUGE FUCKING WARNING by sending them backwards, then forwards. > - she couldn't throw redemption bot at lvl 3 or randomly kill you with a gunblade at lvl 4 or flash 5 times in a row or spam GLP and protobelt at you for harass Low level redemptions are an auto's worth of bonus health. Gunblade is a bit cheesy, admittedly. Stealing flashes is dependent on how many times *you* flash unless she grabs a free one off a minion. She also can't spam anything reliably off of W. > - spears don't have splash damage and Nidalee had to go melee mode to waveclear properly And Paddlestar, one cd, is used *either* to wave clear (and it's not even that good at that) or harassing, so Zoe's wave clear is just generally shit. > - and most important - Nidalee never actually 1 shot people unless she was MASSIVELY ahead, Zoe can 1 shot anyone even without many items at all stages of the game even if you are tanky, that is why she is the biggest cancer I have seen since Yasuo, I wonder who designed them both hmmmm.... Zoe, honestly, can't one-shot that well, either. She does *a lot,* admittedly, since she has most of her burst, as a burst mage, in two spells, but she needs a strong lead before she can just 1-shot people. Also...buy some MR. Also, Yasuo's a freaking 46% win rate champion. Riot has repeatedly spoken on how weak he's been for a long minute now. When do you blame yourself for just not adapting instead of him for being a melee carry? Unless every melee carry should be like Master Yi where they just right click your ass in two?
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEp0YMHf,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-11T17:40:05.649+0000) > - Sure, Zoe has cc, but you can buy QSS/Crucible and cleanse it before it goes off. Someone else can also body block the follow-up hit. If Nidalee marks you, you're usually clean dead in a short moment. Except the CC is two parts so you still get CC'd from either a slow or a sleep, either way she gets more time to escape/hit you. Also, there's not always gonna be a full health tank to body block the nuke.
> [{quoted}](name=Wigglepufftuff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEp0YMHf,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-12-11T18:21:36.563+0000) > > Except the CC is two parts so you still get CC'd from either a slow or a sleep, either way she gets more time to escape/hit you. Also, there's not always gonna be a full health tank to body block the nuke. Have you ever tried cleansing her sleep? If you cleanse it before it goes, you don't go to sleep. Stop spreading misinformation. *You can't spellshield the sleeping part if you got hit by the initial proc, but you can cleanse it. If you want to spellshield it, you have to block the initial projectile.*
: except zoe has more damage and a more reliable means of landing it, the counterplay to zoe is to show up behind her with a maul your face off champion, the bulk of mid laners isnt that. so zoe does lose to traditional assassin play, but what if you didn't pick an assassin, what if you have an orianna, do you just give up and die? do you just forfeit the lane post 6 knowing she has every opportunity to engage onto you first and blow you up? zoe has no meaningful cooldowns giving her too much flexability to always be ready to scrap, theres no moment of opportunity against her as a mid laner if you didn't blatantly counterpick her. shes in control, not you.
> [{quoted}](name=CrestKnight,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lKgA9o4R,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-12-11T19:00:10.027+0000) > > except zoe has more damage and a more reliable means of landing it, Misinformation: Zoe's E is highly unreliable. It's relatively predictable unless you aren't warding and aren't being careful around walls + it only hits one target, so you can have nearly anyone else body block it. However, it's ALSO a hit-confirm for her ACTUAL damage. This is like saying "Ryu has a reliable combo off of Shoryuken". No, Shoryuken (the jumping uppercut) is and always has been one of his most risky moves, but getting hit by it can be used as a hit-confirm for inescapable combos *after* that point. The counter-play is to not get hit by the initial hit confirm, which is, as I said, unreliable. MOST burst mages have hit confirms AND have more reliable burst than Zoe. Veigar's R is *insanely* reliable, for example, and he STILL has a hit-confirm off his E. > the counterplay to zoe is to show up behind her with a maul your face off champion, the bulk of mid laners isnt that. so zoe does lose to traditional assassin play, but what if you didn't pick an assassin, what if you have an orianna, do you just give up and die? do you just forfeit the lane post 6 knowing she has every opportunity to engage onto you first and blow you up? Misinformation: The counter-play to Zoe in most instances, actually, is to stand behind minions. Like, not even joking. Her entire kit gets eaten by minions. Outside of that, be wary of walls. That's basically the most of it. > zoe has no meaningful cooldowns giving her too much flexability to always be ready to scrap, theres no moment of opportunity against her as a mid laner if you didn't blatantly counterpick her. shes in control, not you. Zoe has low cds because Zoe has a damage-less ult like Taliyah and TF. Note how those champions also have very low cds on their basic abilities, since they have damage-less ults. If there's a "moment of opportunity" against TF or Taliyah, there's a "moment of opportunity" against Zoe. Find it, cause she has a 46% win rate right now, so SOMEONE'S gotta be finding it.
: i mean thats not exactly what I meant, obviously their kits are very different from each others, but old nidalee's playstyle was identical to Zoe's current playstyle. Nidalee was never ever a jungler to begin with, she was a long range AP midlane nuker just like Zoe is right now, it doesn't seem like this on the surface, but their kits were more closely related than what can be seen right from the surface. i hope this helps you understand :)
> [{quoted}](name=sadaiblast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEp0YMHf,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T18:06:12.430+0000) > > i mean thats not exactly what I meant, obviously their kits are very different from each others, but old nidalee's playstyle was identical to Zoe's current playstyle. Nidalee was never ever a jungler to begin with, she was a long range AP midlane nuker just like Zoe is right now, it doesn't seem like this on the surface, but their kits were more closely related than what can be seen right from the surface. i hope this helps you understand :) Difference even now: Zoe's general distance from enemies is a lot closer than old Nidalee's. Zoe's ult is designed to help her out in this case, but Zoe's Q's range is dependent on her own positioning, and her E is dependent on going through walls. Without these mechanics, Zoe's ranges are actually shit. Nidalee's ranges don't have those types of conditions, and that changes the flow of their game play by considerable amounts.
Neidox (NA)
: Nidalee got reworked for a toxic and unfun playstyle
I feel like everyone that makes this blind comparison between Zoe and Nidalee are just not facing the truth or are actually bad at this game.
: I,in most cases don't mind zoe but she can get {{summoner:7}} {{item:3107}} she can get {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:6}} {{summoner:21}} {{item:3152}} {{item:3069}} the comparison is the long range ability that does a lot of damage. but most compare it to pre rework nidalee spear cause it moved faster and {{champion:18}}/{{champion:29}} are not ADCs cause they can be jungle but can go ADC in the sense where some people play nidalee middle and I for one don't care about the sleep on it's own apart from the missing expansion of it,they both have a mark of sorts but it is more how they use it,with the same result but in different ways,depending how long the game went and the zoe is E Qing for every kill,but using more abilities for nidalee
> [{quoted}](name=BlackFlux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEp0YMHf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-11T17:54:24.504+0000) > > I,in most cases don't mind zoe but > she can get {{summoner:7}} {{item:3107}} > she can get {{summoner:4}} {{summoner:6}} {{summoner:21}} {{item:3152}} {{item:3069}} Some of those things suck absolute dick early on in the game. Redemption, for example, by level 6 heals like 130 hp...that's like one spell's worth of damage. Some of the things she can get are problematic (Gunblade), but that's an issue Riot probably won't tackle unless they feel like they have to. > the comparison is the long range ability that does a lot of damage. but most compare it to pre rework nidalee spear cause it moved faster That's a horribly shallow comparison. So every adc is Jinx now because everyone can buy Runaan's and aoe crit? (That's actually kinda what happened and why she kinda sucks now...) > and {{champion:18}}/{{champion:29}} are not ADCs cause they can be jungle but can go ADC in the sense where some people play nidalee middle No one is talking about them. > and I for one don't care about the sleep on it's own apart from the missing expansion of it,they both have a mark of sorts but it is more how they use it,with the same result but in different ways,depending how long the game went and the zoe is E Qing for every kill,but using more abilities for nidalee Nidalee's follow-up is still all in one burst. Zoe's mark can at least be body blocked or cleansed. If you play smart, Zoe can't carry games.
: i feel like you haven't ever seen Nidalee before she got her rework before saying this :P
> [{quoted}](name=sadaiblast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEp0YMHf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-11T17:50:29.202+0000) > > i feel like you haven't ever seen Nidalee before she got her rework before saying this :P So old Nidalee had hard cc that traveled through walls or the ability to steal summoner spells? Old Nidalee could redirect her spear in mid flight?
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Otbcp5TK,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:22:26.704+0000) > > You're misinformed and spreading misinformation. You're toxic. > > 1) Morde was worked on HEAVILY after his rework. Like...HEAVILY. Malicious Metal made sure of that. > > 2) Yasuo isn't being buffed because of his player base. It's because he's been one of the worst champions in the game all preseason long on top of having a very dedicated player base. People use his player base as an argument that "He's good, but he's just difficult", when in actuality he just sucks and the players don't want to drop him. > > Stop spreading bad info. A rioter even said they are buffing yas because hes popular you geniua
> [{quoted}](name=UnboundHades,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Otbcp5TK,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-12-10T18:25:58.464+0000) > > A rioter even said they are buffing yas because hes popular you geniua Everyone has proved you wrong at this point. No need for me to.
GigglesO (NA)
: "we're buffing yasuo because he has a large playerbase"
You're misinformed and spreading misinformation. You're toxic. 1) Morde was worked on HEAVILY after his rework. Like...HEAVILY. Malicious Metal made sure of that. 2) Yasuo isn't being buffed because of his player base. It's because he's been one of the worst champions in the game all preseason long on top of having a very dedicated player base. People use his player base as an argument that "He's good, but he's just difficult", when in actuality he just sucks and the players don't want to drop him. Stop spreading bad info.
CLG ear (NA)
: I don't know what this is
> [{quoted}](name=CLG ear,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JA21TcEw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-10T07:38:48.531+0000) > > I don't know what this is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSlb1ezRqfA
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z8LWRV8g,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2017-11-01T17:08:08.909+0000) > > {{champion:37}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:63}} > > Best bets given what you're looking for. lmao, you are backwords as fuck, telling this guy that he shouldnt lux support and yet you tell him he should try brand or vel. if you are gunna be a stereotype for hating dps support plz atleast stick to it. LMFAO xD
> [{quoted}](name=CinnaBon Kittenz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z8LWRV8g,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-10T02:46:38.928+0000) > > lmao, you are backwords as fuck, telling this guy that he shouldnt lux support and yet you tell him he should try brand or vel. if you are gunna be a stereotype for hating dps support plz atleast stick to it. LMFAO xD Difference: Those two are actually good at being supports since they have variables in their kits that don't need scalings in their passives. Lux relies too much on gold.
Hibeki (NA)
: Kassadin is specifically made to do well against AP and lack power against everyone else. Also, unlike yasuo, his mobility has a resource which increases DRASTICALLY the more he uses it (up to 800 mana for one jump) Yas? Spam freely.
> [{quoted}](name=Hibeki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B7NjMcK4,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-12-10T00:00:42.012+0000) > > Kassadin is specifically made to do well against AP and lack power against everyone else. > > Also, unlike yasuo, his mobility has a resource which increases DRASTICALLY the more he uses it (up to 800 mana for one jump) > > Yas? _**Spam freely.**_ Liar
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LZTr84b4,comment-id=000800000001,timestamp=2017-12-09T17:53:31.881+0000) > > Everything about it freaking sucks. You could say the same for W. nice... you told me nothing so... your comment is worthless
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LZTr84b4,comment-id=0008000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-09T18:28:37.576+0000) > > nice... you told me nothing so... your comment is worthless Alright, then: - Q's damage is relatively lousy unless you get too close for comfort to enemies. - Q can't miss so you can hardly ever buff the thing. - Q is literally *nothing* but damage. I don't think any support besides Sona has a move that legit does NOTHING but damage. - The on-hit effect on Q is a ton of invisible power, which I thought Riot didn't like. It feels bad to lose, but you can hardly appreciate it when it's even there. - W can't be aimed, either. If your heal target doesn't have the lowest hp out of all possible targets in 1k range of you, you can't heal that target.
: https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/summoner/eune/Poske 404 games on Yasuo...
> [{quoted}](name=HaIlMonitor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Jhqq5bJw,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T17:27:31.129+0000) > > https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/summoner/eune/Poske > > 404 games on Yasuo... With more LB games AND a higher LB win ratio...
: > [{quoted}](name=Nymzo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LZTr84b4,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-12-09T17:14:14.163+0000) > > I think the big problem people that hate Sona have yet to realize is the only problemaic part of her kit is her q. W and E are kinda of weak and her passif is mostly use with her Q. > > Hell her auras weren't that big of an issue especially now with that ult is way less bigger than old Sona's (at least in my opinion). > > Her Q could easily have been fix in her ''rework'' but they change everything EXCEPT the only problematic part. ok what part of her Q is the problem? tell me. You cannot choose who it targets, it's always the closest enemies which more often than not means tanks. Her Q does 160 max base damage with the rest of the power behind her being able to auto someone. Her Q scaling is 50% which is average to below average, sure her auto part also has some below average scaling... If people only use her passive on her Q then that just tells me that they have no idea how to play Sona. Someone is diving you or your ADC? W + passive is way more impactful than Q + passive. E + passive is way better when chasing and when being chased. Q + passive is great for poking while depending on the situation W or Q would be more impactful in teamfights
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LZTr84b4,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-12-09T17:24:22.882+0000) > > ok what part of her Q is the problem? tell me. You cannot choose who it targets, it's always the closest enemies which more often than not means tanks. Her Q does 160 max base damage with the rest of the power behind her being able to auto someone. Her Q scaling is 50% which is average to below average, sure her auto part also has some below average scaling... Everything about it freaking sucks. You could say the same for W.
: Gathering useless you mean?
> [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LZTr84b4,comment-id=0000000000000000000100010000,timestamp=2017-12-09T17:09:49.698+0000) > > Gathering useless you mean? Highest ranked Sona player uses it on Sona, so no, I mean Gathering Storm.
Azadethe (NA)
: I can speak to Karma Specifically. Even when built right atm, she just doesn't have the umpf or tankiness to perform either role. She can artillery only, and discourage pushes, but there are so many counters to that and so many counter heals. And, if you get tanky, you may perform well, but your team usually sucks, feeds and buries you to the late game fight where karma is irrelevant. The new runes have been kind to Karma (Ultimate hat) But they've also been unkind (tankiness enough to survive and use W efficiently)
> [{quoted}](name=Azadethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LZTr84b4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-09T10:21:47.792+0000) > > I can speak to Karma Specifically. > > Even when built right atm, she just doesn't have the umpf or tankiness to perform either role. She can artillery only, and discourage pushes, but there are so many counters to that and so many counter heals. And, if you get tanky, you may perform well, but your team usually sucks, feeds and buries you to the late game fight where karma is irrelevant. > > The new runes have been kind to Karma (Ultimate hat) But they've also been unkind (tankiness enough to survive and use W efficiently) Here's the thing: Karma falls off a cliff after laning due to having shitty hard cc options, and solo queue lacks the coordination to properly wrap games up quickly while playing Karma, so people can bleed out and lose easier than they do when they play Karma in coordinated games. In coordinated games, people build teams around Karma not having much cc and actually rotate and push advantages. Solo queue? You'll be Karma, your jg will be Yi, and your top lane will be Fiora...into an Amumu. That's a good deal of her problem in solo queue.
: What world does Sona even reach 300 AP in the game? {{item:2301}} {{item:3504}} {{item:3190}} {{item:3107}} {{item:3174}} 35 + 60 + 0 + 0 + 30 + 70 (athene's passive) equals 195. Not even close.
> [{quoted}](name=AirKingNeo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LZTr84b4,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-12-09T14:03:21.355+0000) > > What world does Sona even reach 300 AP in the game? > > {{item:2301}} {{item:3504}} {{item:3190}} {{item:3107}} {{item:3174}} > > 35 + 60 + 0 + 0 + 30 + 70 (athene's passive) equals 195. Not even close. Gathering Storm + Tear in your build + Absolute Focus + that Locket should be a Crucible.
CatSith (NA)
: @RIOT Why not keep yasuo weak until you find a solution to his gameplay instead of buffing him?
He's been a shit champion all preseason. Before preseason, he had like 48% to 49% general Diamond win rates. The reason Riot buffed him now is because if it was done like you said in the OP, they'd NEVER buff him. Yasuo, at this point, has a horrible stigma about him where nothing you can do about improving the champion will go well. He's inherently toxic and unfun just for being Yasuo. You could even rework the guy and remove a tool or two of his between his shield, windwall, dashes, or whatever, and people would STILL bitch about the remaining mechanics, on top of any new mechanic they put in. It's IMPOSSIBLE, so they might as well just buff the guy.
: Great job Riot, you hard nerfed Sona and now you are tackling the runes she uses
Personally, I have no plans to play ranked until February, anyway (gotta wait for the god tier players to get out of Plat/low DIamond first), so I at least got a little window of time before having to worry about this bullshit taking my mmr and lp down. Still, don't expect Riot or anyone else to give a *single* flying fuck about it.
: I just always abandon the lane if its shoved and gank mid or establish deep ward control. If the adc wants to 1v3 and die instead of backing off like I tell em to then there's nothing to do about it. Most of the time this establishes enough heads up about the enemy jungler presence that the adc knows to back off and let the wave return plus I can usually get at least a summoner from mid lane. Small advantages, but sometimes they make all the difference.
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XKxI5Oz5,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-09T04:41:06.965+0000) > > I just always abandon the lane if its shoved and gank mid or establish deep ward control. If the adc wants to 1v3 and die instead of backing off like I tell em to then there's nothing to do about it. Most of the time this establishes enough heads up about the enemy jungler presence that the adc knows to back off and let the wave return plus I can usually get at least a summoner from mid lane. Small advantages, but sometimes they make all the difference. My issue is that I get so burnt out having to tell *every adc* to stop shoving the wave. Like, if the enemy lane you're fighting drops you to like 30% hp, would you want to be all the way at THEIR turret or right under YOURS? Yours, right? If that's the case, then why do my allies just let the enemy passively heal off my work in the lane under turret? It's so stupid, and I shouldn't have to tell EVERY DANG ADC to last hit the wave.
: you follow their lead and realize that your lane partner is doing what they believe to be is the best way to win the game. And if you follow up there's a fair chance their idiot strategy will work. I've had plenty of vayne players siege and dive enemy inhibitor and 1 v 4. but those times have also been me following up and making it a 2 v 4 and vayne walking out alive with a quadra. Once you realise that no, your teammates aren't lightly sabotaging the game so that you barely lose no matter what you do and are actually trying to win (which is way more realistic) then playing support and depending on them becomes much more easier.
> [{quoted}](name=flibitydoo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XKxI5Oz5,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-12-09T04:38:49.216+0000) > > you follow their lead and realize that your lane partner is doing what they believe to be is the best way to win the game. And if you follow up there's a fair chance their idiot strategy will work. > > I've had plenty of vayne players siege and dive enemy inhibitor and 1 v 4. > but those times have also been me following up and making it a 2 v 4 and vayne walking out alive with a quadra. > > Once you realise that no, your teammates aren't lightly sabotaging the game so that you barely lose no matter what you do and are actually trying to win (which is way more realistic) then playing support and depending on them becomes much more easier. If that's the case, I should just go coin every game because we're sure as hell gonna just farm instead of actually fight the enemy lane and push for a lead.
: Can that attitude and go help someone else get fed and give adc solo Xp and return when they can fight
> [{quoted}](name=Around999People,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=XKxI5Oz5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-09T04:33:54.239+0000) > > Can that attitude and go help someone else get fed and give adc solo Xp and return when they can fight So when he's shoved up, leave lane and let him get ganked by himself? That's the idea?
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZL5AmIAZ,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-12-09T04:26:25.129+0000) > > ...no he didn't. He was like 48% win rate before he got a small hit. Then he went on to perform at Worlds. He was 45% winrate the first patch he was out and got a nerf to his shield. https://i.imgur.com/TaGZPA5.jpg
> [{quoted}](name=DotEleven,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZL5AmIAZ,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-12-09T04:32:42.494+0000) > > He was 45% winrate the first patch he was out and got a nerf to his shield. > > https://i.imgur.com/TaGZPA5.jpg Champion.gg is like the WORST site for stats
Rioter Comments
: Please, Rakan had a 45% winrate and he STILL got a nerf.
> [{quoted}](name=DotEleven,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=ZL5AmIAZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-12-09T04:02:39.163+0000) > > Please, Rakan had a 45% winrate and he STILL got a nerf. ...no he didn't. He was like 48% win rate before he got a small hit. Then he went on to perform at Worlds.
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chipndip1

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