: > [{quoted}](name=CPU Lyrica,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9nXl9enH,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-21T05:47:15.276+0000) > > And not a single Word was Said For {{champion:37}} . {{sticker:sg-janna}} shes fine
I think he means that no one thinks about Sona anymore...which is entirely true. She's basically the Kayle or Teemo of supports.
: > [{quoted}](name=CPU Lyrica,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9nXl9enH,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-21T05:47:15.276+0000) > > And not a single Word was Said For {{champion:37}} . {{sticker:sg-janna}} Sorry about that. I only wanted to say things about champions I actually play and have personal experience with. I do agree that Sona is pretty weak right now, though.
Sweet summer child...
Sõna (EUW)
: Aren't the supports being weaker asked by the board assassins? Because you people asked to nerf enchanters over and over, and then ask why asssassin damage is being abrupt. The relationship between assassin damage and enchanter is mutual. Either buffing/nerfing either one hurts another playerbase. So Riot listened to Assassin's player base, more flashy gameplay makes world hype. But then some of the world game is still 30 minutes mark without much fights.. it hurts the playerbase below plats
You and I aren't watching the same tournament.
: You're right, to an extent anyways. She does not need huge buffs, she needs some QoL changes and small buffs. By small buffs I mean some early game base stat. adjustment and some work done to Shunpo (which will likely result in further power being taken away from her dagger passive). A simple give-and-take approach would do wonders in fixing Kat.
https://i.gyazo.com/e63fff5540a7b98ff6ab27db7f0432a7.png This is filtered for Diamond https://i.gyazo.com/1e88d9a000cea04f7edd70edb0859b34.png This is filtered for Masters https://i.gyazo.com/b1e3a59e4abf3a6dffc97129e48ed567.png Before you talk about "the majority", if that was your intention, this is filtered for Gold. **She does not need buffs.**
: My point is that she's not fun to play as and viability isn't exactly an issue here as a result. My other point is that every other champion that is/was far more volatile than her such as Irelia see positive attention along with negative changes, while Katarina has never seen a single buff since her rework. As for the positive win rate that's due to one tricks (experts at the champion) playing against players that simply aren't good.
> [{quoted}](name=ShunposCastTime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eBT2Pzqj,comment-id=001300000000,timestamp=2018-10-20T10:43:08.281+0000) > > My point is that she's not fun to play as and viability isn't exactly an issue here as a result. My other point is that every other champion that is/was far more volatile than her such as Irelia see positive attention along with negative changes, while Katarina has never seen a single buff since her rework. You said she wasn't *effective.* Don't move the goal post. Katarina hasn't seen buffs because she doesn't need buffs. Simple.
: Waiting for {{champion:432}} Meta
Bârd (NA)
: We live in a world where Aatrox, Urgot, Sion, and Heimerdinger are top tier picks at worlds.
Slythion (NA)
: way to completely ignore *why* Akali is considered cancer to play against lol
If a squishy melee ISN'T going to pop you as their primary play pattern, there needs to be a reason *why,* don't you think?
: Diversity in items would probably be a major upgrade
I'm gotta say no, dawg. More items is fine. Not "more items for no reason". That isn't fine.
: And here people circlejerk each other and pretend like everything is wrong with the game. The difference is that this here is the minority. The current Meta is far better than it was the last season, and the game sure as hell isn't dying only because the, I repeat, small minority here complains about literally everything that has either a dash, deals damage or is just popular in general. But fuck Riot because they listen to the majority of the playerbase, right?
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nxA5JEyk,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-20T19:48:38.340+0000) > > And here people circlejerk each other and pretend like everything is wrong with the game. > The difference is that this here is the minority. > > The current Meta is far better than it was the last season, and the game sure as hell isn't dying only because the, I repeat, small minority here complains about literally everything that has either a dash, deals damage or is just popular in general. > > But fuck Riot because they listen to the majority of the playerbase, right? Literally anything that has to do with "damage" is bad, and everything that has to do with "don't die" is good, no matter the context, on these boards.
: akali is not hard to master at all.
I mean, I base my post on statistics showing how garbage she is until you reach Diamond. What do you base your post on?
: Wukong is top tier in the jungle if you exlclude Graves and Jax :O
Realest thing breathing in the jg if every other jungler up and stopped doing that.
: After today's upsets, we can all agree on one thing as SoloQ players
It's a team game we can't play as a team and people wonder why it's so hard to balance the game. Like it's not even hard or complicated and yet we struggle over this simple concept.
: the Meta defined this Worlds. Shouldnt Riot open up more strategic options?
Simple: **THE GAME ISN'T BALANCED AROUND PRO PLAY TO BEGIN WITH**
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EnUygB9I,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-19T19:18:57.920+0000) > > Here's the thing: Ashe is MORE than fine. > > Solo queue is never going to value utility properly, but that doesn't mean Ashe is a bad champ. and im not saying she "bad" but shes also not good she was a fine pick last season but she is not now because of the mass amounts of mobility i mean {{champion:96}} got 5 extra movement speed because he was having the same issue
Ashe is fine. She's a utility champ. Solo queue is not going to highlight her strengths when she's balanced.
MegaHuff (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=z8IE09yP,comment-id=004e0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T20:44:29.879+0000) > > Now the issue I'm seeing here is that you just don't understand how to fight her. > > I've laned against the champ a few times myself. Never felt like I had *0 options.* Few times when I'm Lux mid, and even a time when I was Poppy top lane into Akali top lane. If anything, being Poppy top made it *easier* to fight her than when I was ranged, just by virtue of having Doran's Shield, Second Wind, Grasp, and a combo that comes out before she can react with W. > > And that's the thing: W isn't some catch-all move. A lot of champ kits don't give a shit if she W'd or not if they did their combo already. The main things that do are DPS carries. The rest can get their damage and back up from the shroud when she finally panic-drops it. If she drops it to go on offense, you just back up and counter before it's back online, anyway. Looking at your op.gg, between Sion, Swain, and Anivia, Idk who out of all three of those would care about Akali doing literally anything. Why not just play them? > > And this whole thing about "not feeling fair", I see that as people not getting the champ. Urgot used to feel unfair as shit for me. Same for Trundle. Same for Vlad. Same for Teemo. Same for Morde. As I played top lane more to branch out my off roles and all that jazz, I started "getting" how to play against these champs and that feeling of unfairness, at least when I'm Poppy, and definitely not when I'm Fiora, isn't as absolute as it once was. Some are more Vlad-nnoying than others, but it's doesn't feel like I have *0 options* unless it's something like Poppy vs. Darius. > > Because you keep talking about what she can do. You've never stopped for a second to think about what she *can't do.* What she's weak to. What she's not as good for. If she scales poorly (she does). Where's the counter-play. So on and so forth. You ONLY fixate on what she does well, not anything she doesn't do well, and doing THAT leads to a mentality where you think she just outright wins anything she wants, which isn't true. It's literally why I put comparisons to other champs and the things THEY do, because Akali has trade-offs for what she does that people just aren't looking at because they're so enamored by her shroud. So I'm LITERALLY telling you to argue against yourself as an exercise. It's good for you. > > It's literally in the last paragraph. If Akali, the slowed down assassin, is bad, while front-loaded damage is ALSO bad, **what do you guys even want?** It's in the original post, and very few people answered this question. > > So you hate that she sustains (even though she ALWAYS has)? You hate that her shroud isn't so useless that Riot had to tack on a blink to justify it existing in today's LoL (something people forgot)? You hate that she has mobility as an assassin? Alright, WHATEVER. But until you guys as a collective offer some sort of alternative, all you guys look like is a bunch of complainers. You all complain about damage ALL THE TIME on the boards, but you ALSO complain about champs designed from the ground up to give you a chance to not outright die in .4 seconds. > > If Akali's such a problem, what assassin isn't? The crying on these boards DOES hold repercussions in the grand scheme of the game's direction, so you can't just take no responsibility while complaining about everything. If Riot came out with an assassin in the future, would you *like* to see more LB-style 1-shots? Is that what we want, or do we want assassins to use their tools to actually fight with their opponent, rather than blindside them? > > THAT is the actual question of the thread. It's not my fault if people don't want to or can't understand that much. It's laid out in full in the OP. You keep lumping everyone together as if we're a hive mind on the boards. You're doing that thing you've been doing to your other posters where you try to tell them what they're thinking. I don't know what you mean when you say "what do you guys even want." You keep trying to act like you know what people think when you honestly don't. You say that I only fixate on what she can do but I'm doing that because that's the topic here: why people hate Akali. People don't hate her obviously because she's some bad champion that's struggling because of what she can't do, most people complain about what she can do. That's why I type about it here -- not because I "only fixate on it." We don't answer your "what do you guys even want" because you're not asking it to anybody directly. You keep asking it as a general statement/to whom it may apply, but apparently it doesn't apply to every person. Some people are going to have an opinion on assassins as a whole, but I personally have feelings about champions as individuals. My feelings about Akali aren't interconnected with any champions other than a situation where I may be against her. Treat people with some respect and individuality, instead of making claims against me like that I "hate that assassins have mobility," or that I "complain about damage _ALL THE TIME_" or that I "hate that her shroud isn't so useless" (and no I didn't forget it had a blink, I just prefer the old iteration of it because at least it felt easier to manage) or that I complain about not dying in .4 seconds. Until you can actually show me where I've said any of that I'd really like you to stop being intellectually dishonest and stop trying to put words in peoples' mouths to fit your own narrative. I don't hate mobility. I don't hate a move not being useless. I don't complain all the time about damage. You cannot quote me on those, so stop saying things like them. Anywho, that out of the way, you ask why I don't play champions after searching for my profile (namely Sion/Swain/Anivia) and now I have to once again ask that you not bring up champion-specific examples for playing against her, and I explained exactly why earlier, but I'll say it again. _Counterpicks aren't the same thing as counterplay mostly in the case that pick order heavily influences whether I'm even able to pick a certain champion or not._ If I've already picked first, how am I going to switch my champion to a counter, since I'm already locked in? What if I make a judgment call that a certain role/character would be good for my team's comp, and that happens to not be good against Akali? You have to consider things like this before randomly resorting to the good old "but why don't you just pick X champion?" argument. The thing is, I have played against Akali a fair share, and it honestly doesn't matter what I pick half the time. Most champions I think of aren't going to be doing well against Akali for one reason or another. I don't pick Anivia top unless I just don't really care that much (and I'm usually defaulting to top or filling so that's a majority of the time). Characters like Anivia and Swain that are squishy, I find struggle against Akali anyway. If I were to be a long range mage, like Vel or Lux, I can see laning being easier against Akali, but realistically these characters aren't that long of range, and still will fall to Akali in lane. It's not like you can't hit her, but more often than not what ends up happening is if I'm a damage leaning character, I can hit her, but I just end up being too squishy in the long run to keep up with her damage while she's healing mine up, and if I can, it's at a heavy cost of farm because I'm just playing ultra safe or something. The problem there is that I end up dying most of the time, even if I use an escape or two, because she just dictates combat so well, and controls who's engaging on who most of the time. If I'm playing a character like Sion, it's not as bad in the dying department because she can't outright one shot me that easily, but with the nature of those types of characters, I usually end up being slower, shorter range, less mobility, etc. and she will just have her way with me more easily like that because it's usually even easier for her to just jump on me when I want, and being a tank and having less damage, it's even harder to build a damage lead on her because she relies on her energy so she's never really low enough for me to collapse on her and she's never really low enough energy to stop healing if she doesn't want to be, and even if I wanted to collapse anyway, (as Sion at least) all I would be able to do is walk up and try to scream/pop my huge telegraphed shield on her or my huge telegraphed Q, and what's to stop her from just using shroud after that? At that point if I miss _anything_ (which is very likely when she has increased movement and shes invisible) that's wasted mana/potential damage from me and she didn't even have to do anything really for it, and she gets free advantage since I have moves down. It's just a lose/lose situation usually when trying to do anything against her shroud, but her shroud isn't ever down for long enough for you to actually do anything real to her. Most champions I'm comfortable playing/have even been able to play against her because of how often shes banned, just don't cut it. It doesn't matter how well I play, just because of the sheer amount of "stuff" she has, she either ends up outroaming, outcsing, or just flat out killing me in lane because I can't get away from her 4 dashes and her damage is consistent. And yes, champs do care if she drops shroud, because even lost mana = lost damage. Thing is, even if I end up beating her, the character still doesn't feel good to play against, and it feels like it took more effort than it was worth. I'm almost done here if we can't get past the weird things you're trying to pull here -- I don't want to try to sit here and explain something to somebody who's going to actually lump me in with other people and try to stereotype me while twisting my words around.
> [{quoted}](name=MegaHuff,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=z8IE09yP,comment-id=004e00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T22:15:00.791+0000) > > You keep lumping everyone together as if we're a hive mind on the boards. The post isn't just one-dimensional. 1) Why do you dislike Akali? 2) Given the boards and its previous (and current) grievances, what makes an assassin design people would like to see if Akali isn't it? The goal post has never been moved. As to why I treat the boards as a hive mind... ...it is one, kinda. When there's a general consensus on the boards, that holds weight in Riot's decision making, even if the people that whine on the boards don't necessarily care to see that. As someone that's observed the going-ons in this community for a few years, yeah, I'll address the boards as a community because that's what you guys are. You don't get to turn that on and off when you want to. > We don't answer your "what do you guys even want" because you're not asking it to anybody directly. You keep asking it as a general statement/to whom it may apply, but apparently it doesn't apply to every person. I mean, you just said it yourself. You liked the old shroud was because it was "easier to manage", but the old shroud was ALSO entirely garbage. What else does that say besides "I liked old shroud better because it was hardly a move in her kit"? But more onto my point: It's a general statement to a general audience who I HOPED would read that statement and answer the question. If you have an opinion on champs without the umbrella of a sub-class to categorize them..."fine", I guess? Regardless, you still know what assassins are, you still read my thread, and you *know* what I'm asking since you read it in full and had me clarify specific parts of it, so you can't just act like you don't realize that the thread's question was framed comparatively to other assassins in this game. Like, the question is LITERALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OP: "If Akali is some horribly designed champ, what assassin isn't?". The thread was NEVER framed as simply "why do you guys not like this kit?". And if I say "you guys", like I said above, you guys = the community. I can have a conversation with you *specifically* over what you tell me about your experiences with the champ, and why I think you may feel one way or another about those experiences, and so on and so forth, but when I say "You guys complain about damage", *you* aren't 10 people. You guys = the community. It's just easier to say "you guys", but for future reference I'll say "the community". > Anywho, that out of the way, you ask why I don't play champions after searching for my profile (namely Sion/Swain/Anivia) and now I have to once again ask that you not bring up champion-specific examples for playing against her, and I explained exactly why earlier, but I'll say it again. _Counterpicks aren't the same thing as counterplay mostly in the case that pick order heavily influences whether I'm even able to pick a certain champion or not. Well, I wouldn't insinuate they are the same. The reason why I bring up specific picks, and this is a topic of its own I'll eventually make a thread for, but I'm gonna have to talk about it here a bit: Match-ups are a thing, man. Like, my examples with Poppy and Lux, right? If I use Lux Q and hit her and she W's, does Lux REALLY care? You don't get your passive off, but you still get all your damage out, she gets none of hers, and once you back up, Akali's W is on a long cd while your spells are back up again. If I'm Poppy, for example, between E > AA > Q, Akali can't W yet. My whole combo's done and Akali FINALLY can W, but I have no business hitting her so I can just walk off. I take minimal damage and Akali just got chunked. Reading your whole dissertation, you have a mentality issue on the match-up...which is what a lot of people have. Idk if me going back and forth about it would change your mind, but I'm here to say that you're blowing her out of proportion. Like, I mentioned champs in top lane I hated fighting because I'm trying to make the point more relatable. Once you work your head around understanding a champion, they feel less unfair. It's HONESTLY that simple. > And yes, champs do care if she drops shroud, because even lost mana = lost damage. Like I said: If you're combo'ing spells (Anivia stun > icicle. Swain Nevermove > Q. Etc.) you already got most of or ALL of your damage out before she shrouded. Who cares at that point? Just walk backwards once you finished your combo.
: Because getting killed by someone that misses everything just because an ignite did 1/3 of my health feels bad.
: I think in most of those cases, though, you can easily over-estimate the effect of the community outcry. The reverts have decent arguments to roll them back, regardless of what the Boards said. You have admitted in some great threads that Akali is pretty healthy for an assassin, and the sightstone changes can only really be interpreted as good imo. Large amounts of player feedback does matter, but I don't think Boards outcry is ever the sole contributor. We're simply not a large enough percentage of the player base. LB is kind of oppressive, and they'd already reworked her once as a result. She probably needs another pass with a different direction.
> [{quoted}](name=KnightsKemplar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E84mbzLc,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T21:06:23.024+0000) > > Large amounts of player feedback does matter, but I don't think Boards outcry is ever the sole contributor. We're simply not a large enough percentage of the player base. LB is kind of oppressive, and they'd already reworked her once as a result. She probably needs another pass with a different direction. Oh, DEFINITELY not the sole contributor. I just feel like the boards needs to be more self-aware as a community, because the boards *do matter.* That's why it's important for people to think their positions through before going on some rant or tirade. The boards can be the breeding grounds for great ideas if people would bother to use it well. They just don't because it takes more time and energy.
: I don't actually agree on that point. I think Riot does listen, but I *don't* think they just give out nerfs because people don't like the champ. They're buffing Zoe on PBE right now, after all. What it *will* make them do is consider a rework. And that's good for LB.
We've had Kog half-reverted. Malz half-reverted. Rengar's half-reverted. LB's almost entirely reverted (tuning's changed, but function is back to normal entirely). Those are some examples. Riot also added Sightstones with varied stats, an idea originating from the boards. Pyke and Akali exist as assassins with less upfront burst because people wanted less upfront burst from assassins in general for a long time now. The assassin rework took place IN THE FIRST PLACE because people wanted less upfront burst from assassins. Large amounts of complaining has an effect on Riot's direction. It's up to the community to not misuse that power.
MegaHuff (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=z8IE09yP,comment-id=004e00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T02:43:36.998+0000) > > First, you need to make your point. > > Secondly, you should be able to argue your point. The reason I mentioned what my teacher taught me is because it helps with holistic thinking, so you can make a stronger case with less holes in it. > > If it just boils down to "it makes me uncomfortable", then that shows a very bad sign when it comes to how people see the game as a whole. Like, in Zoe's case, even with the counter-play present (dodge/take cleanse/buy 1 of 4 items that nullify cc/hard engage), the notion of being ass-blasted for most of or all of your hp for a single mistake can be frustrating, and you can make that case. Even though I'd take up the mantle for Zoe, I can at least *understand* frustration when she's like a damage output version of Blitz, where one mistake is A LOT of punishment, but she spends a lot of her time trying and retrying to make it happen. Like, as someone that lanes against Blitz all the time, Zoe's a new spin on relatively similar territory (dodge or die), but I can understand people not seeing it that way, and I can understand people not wanting to have their hp bar put in a retirement home after one slip up. > > In Akali's case, she's literally the opposite. She's entirely tuned around a hit-and-run play style so that there's more time to interact with the champ. Whether your options are flee, reposition, or just brawl it out, Akali's design *gives you time* to assess these things, which is **exactly what people cry for every day on these boards. This is why I'm so confused by everyone disliking Akali.** If I run into LB, LB is going to drop all her shit on me in less than a second. If I die at that moment, that's it. That's the interaction. That's the "game play", me getting face pummeled. If Akali lands E, you have a chance to counter the E. If she uses R, she's locked out of her finisher for like 2 seconds. If she uses Q...well Q is just filler for everything else, anyway. Because Akali has to elongate her kill pattern, if she doesn't have a means *to do this,* she'd literally be entirely worthless as a champion. Seeing how we're trying to *move away from 1-shots galore on assassins,* you'd think that the first successful attempt at reducing assassin burst speeds without making the champ fucking {{champion:107}} shit to play {{champion:7}} would at least garner some positive vibes on the boards, but now we're crying about *why* she's able to function without wiping you off the face of the planet in .3 seconds. > > The reason I want people to REALLY think on this subject is because the history as to why I have an issue with the complaints in the first place runs deeper than just "Akali". If we're HONESTLY saying Akali's a terrible design that makes everyone sad and so on and so forth, then assassins in general shouldn't even exist in League of Legends as far as I can tell. Between people hating front loaded damage, and now people hating the tools required to NOT be a shit ton of front loaded damage, you might as well just skip over the sub class because *that's all they do.* If you want to talk about a problem deeper than Akali I say don't just make a post about hate for Akali. I personally hate Akali because playing against her feels like the ball is in her territory the whole game and I'm just playing around what she does. I can't get away from her massive mobility if she actually decides she wants to kill me usually. She doesn't need to brawl it out or anything, she just dominates the flow of aggro, where she can go up and attack me most of the time but if she doesn't want to fight she won't and there isn't anything I can do about it. It becomes more annoying because she can do that while simultaneously having sustain. It just feels like awful to play against, more than most champions. Now that's just all from my personal experience, I'm not claiming by saying this that Akali just dominates anybody in any ELO because she's OP or whatever, but it's not like that awful feeling playing against her comes from nowhere. That's why I'm guessing most people hate on her -- she just _feels awful to play against_ . I still don't understand why that quote is even relevant in what we're saying, but I'll finish off this reply with this: Don't make a post about Akali and when people talk about Akali as the chosen topic, deflect and talk about other champions and whatnot. It just creates confusion between two people trying to get different ideas across. And "mages can't auto attack her" and the longer kill pattern or smoke screen not being a free roaming stealth, all don't change the fact that she has a really obnoxious kit, with common points people complain about that I see usually being: being able to dictate engages too well, being too safe, having too much sustain (so she's hard to build a lead against), not having enough downtime after using her abilities, having 4 dashes, etc. Some of those I have a problem with more than others, but it's hardly an argument that Akali has problems, even if her core gameplay is satisfying or whatever. If you want to make a post and shame people for hating on a class of champions, do that, but it's too confusing trying to understand the point you're even trying to make anymore, and I mean that as respectfully as possible.
> [{quoted}](name=MegaHuff,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=z8IE09yP,comment-id=004e000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T19:53:26.970+0000) > > If you want to talk about a problem deeper than Akali I say don't just make a post about hate for Akali. I personally hate Akali because playing against her feels like the ball is in her territory the whole game and I'm just playing around what she does. I can't get away from her massive mobility if she actually decides she wants to kill me usually. She doesn't need to brawl it out or anything, she just dominates the flow of aggro, where she can go up and attack me most of the time but if she doesn't want to fight she won't and there isn't anything I can do about it. It becomes more annoying because she can do that while simultaneously having sustain. It just feels like awful to play against, more than most champions. Now that's just all from my personal experience, I'm not claiming by saying this that Akali just dominates anybody in any ELO because she's OP or whatever, but it's not like that awful feeling playing against her comes from nowhere. That's why I'm guessing most people hate on her -- she just _feels awful to play against_ . Now the issue I'm seeing here is that you just don't understand how to fight her. I've laned against the champ a few times myself. Never felt like I had *0 options.* Few times when I'm Lux mid, and even a time when I was Poppy top lane into Akali top lane. If anything, being Poppy top made it *easier* to fight her than when I was ranged, just by virtue of having Doran's Shield, Second Wind, Grasp, and a combo that comes out before she can react with W. And that's the thing: W isn't some catch-all move. A lot of champ kits don't give a shit if she W'd or not if they did their combo already. The main things that do are DPS carries. The rest can get their damage and back up from the shroud when she finally panic-drops it. If she drops it to go on offense, you just back up and counter before it's back online, anyway. Looking at your op.gg, between Sion, Swain, and Anivia, Idk who out of all three of those would care about Akali doing literally anything. Why not just play them? And this whole thing about "not feeling fair", I see that as people not getting the champ. Urgot used to feel unfair as shit for me. Same for Trundle. Same for Vlad. Same for Teemo. Same for Morde. As I played top lane more to branch out my off roles and all that jazz, I started "getting" how to play against these champs and that feeling of unfairness, at least when I'm Poppy, and definitely not when I'm Fiora, isn't as absolute as it once was. Some are more Vlad-nnoying than others, but it's doesn't feel like I have *0 options* unless it's something like Poppy vs. Darius. > I still don't understand why that quote is even relevant in what we're saying, Because you keep talking about what she can do. You've never stopped for a second to think about what she *can't do.* What she's weak to. What she's not as good for. If she scales poorly (she does). Where's the counter-play. So on and so forth. You ONLY fixate on what she does well, not anything she doesn't do well, and doing THAT leads to a mentality where you think she just outright wins anything she wants, which isn't true. It's literally why I put comparisons to other champs and the things THEY do, because Akali has trade-offs for what she does that people just aren't looking at because they're so enamored by her shroud. So I'm LITERALLY telling you to argue against yourself as an exercise. It's good for you. > but I'll finish off this reply with this: Don't make a post about Akali and when people talk about Akali as the chosen topic, deflect and talk about other champions and whatnot. It just creates confusion between two people trying to get different ideas across. And "mages can't auto attack her" and the longer kill pattern or smoke screen not being a free roaming stealth, all don't change the fact that she has a really obnoxious kit, with common points people complain about that I see usually being: being able to dictate engages too well, being too safe, having too much sustain (so she's hard to build a lead against), not having enough downtime after using her abilities, having 4 dashes, etc. Some of those I have a problem with more than others, but it's hardly an argument that Akali has problems, even if her core gameplay is satisfying or whatever. > If you want to make a post and shame people for hating on a class of champions, do that, but it's too confusing trying to understand the point you're even trying to make anymore, and I mean that as respectfully as possible. > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=z8IE09yP,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-10-07T22:21:58.880+0000) > So what *do* people want? Is there an assassin design that embodies "proper" assassin mechanics in the game? I've resided on these boards for a few years, so given the complaints I've seen about assassins, I don't see how people don't see the good that came out of Akali's kit. If you see something I don't, tell me. It's literally in the last paragraph. If Akali, the slowed down assassin, is bad, while front-loaded damage is ALSO bad, **what do you guys even want?** It's in the original post, and very few people answered this question. So you hate that she sustains (even though she ALWAYS has)? You hate that her shroud isn't so useless that Riot had to tack on a blink to justify it existing in today's LoL (something people forgot)? You hate that she has mobility as an assassin? Alright, WHATEVER. But until you guys as a collective offer some sort of alternative, all you guys look like is a bunch of complainers. You all complain about damage ALL THE TIME on the boards, but you ALSO complain about champs designed from the ground up to give you a chance to not outright die in .4 seconds. If Akali's such a problem, what assassin isn't? The crying on these boards DOES hold repercussions in the grand scheme of the game's direction, so you can't just take no responsibility while complaining about everything. If Riot came out with an assassin in the future, would you *like* to see more LB-style 1-shots? Is that what we want, or do we want assassins to use their tools to actually fight with their opponent, rather than blindside them? THAT is the actual question of the thread. It's not my fault if people don't want to or can't understand that much. It's laid out in full in the OP.
: Yes, that was problem back then, but your not getting what I'm saying. In this high damage meta, which would be worse, her old kit, or her new one? Cause I don't think you could just sit on someones nuts with W and Cinder now (in high elo anyway, low you probably could). Any her new kit is garbage outside of organized play anyhow, I'd rather see it reverted, cause I could give a flying fart about organized play. They deleted a champ I liked.
Well, think of it like this: If you were fine with Sej being garbage, then her old kit was easier to balance for solo queue 1-tricks. If you wanted Sej to be an actual champion, her new kit is better, although it's not for solo queue. Either kit's not a good ending point, but her new kit's a better foothold than her old one, where no one even respected her as a champ in the game after she was nerfed. If she was old Sej, she'd basically be ranged Amumu, and like you said, who cares about Amumu?
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E84mbzLc,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-19T19:16:08.386+0000) > > Boards: {{champion:35}} Upfront burst is bullshit. I don't have time to counter-play when I'm dead as soon as they move. {{champion:7}} > > Also boards: {{champion:84}} Assassin that's hard to master that doesn't burst the shit out of me by virtue of being themselves? Also cancer. {{champion:84}} > > May as well just dismantle the whole sub-class. Random person : sees different opinions also random person : assumes different opinions come from the same person
Random person also knows that when enough people circle jerk how fun it is to be 1-shot by LB/Rengar, Riot listens to the people crying for reverts and now this thread exists where we're talking about what random people say. This community is unified *enough* on certain topics that, when enough bitching is done, sometimes something actually happens, and that thing isn't always a good thing.
: Feel like Ashe Needs Something to Make her Playable
Here's the thing: Ashe is MORE than fine. Solo queue is never going to value utility properly, but that doesn't mean Ashe is a bad champ.
naymless (NA)
: After playing against leblanc and seeing challenger players struggle against her
Boards: {{champion:35}} Upfront burst is bullshit. I don't have time to counter-play when I'm dead as soon as they move. {{champion:7}} Also boards: {{champion:84}} Assassin that's hard to master that doesn't burst the shit out of me by virtue of being themselves? Also cancer. {{champion:84}} May as well just dismantle the whole sub-class.
: Every region wants a Wukong rework, but China doesn't, so no rework.
The minute a rework goes through, people will complain about him "being replaced" anyway. These boards are such garbage.
: Was she any worse than she is now? Would she be in this meta in she was reverted? Cause all she was back then was a slow moving ult bot. I can't see that doing well in today's meta. I mean when's the last time you saw Amumu?
Back then, she was in pro play all over because she did a ton of ambient damage with Cinderhulk + W. Since she had no balance levers, they just nerfed all her numbers and left her there, making her clears horrible and her interactions generally garbage until mid to late game. If you think "fucking garbage" = "healthy", then you have issues with how you view League. Just because a champ isn't complained about doesn't mean their kit's in a good spot. Like you just said, when's the last time anyone gave a fuck about Amumu? Nerfing something to a point where it isn't an issue doesn't mean it wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't nerfed off a cliff.
: > [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eBT2Pzqj,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-19T14:21:45.355+0000) > > muh potential gameplay. This is a strategy game, not an action shooter. Sejuani being easily kited and peeled after using her Q is gameplay enough. Your sentence literally made no sense at all. Frankly speaking, not sure if there's any point in talking with you....
: Revert her then. I don't recall any complaints about old Sej in pro play, just low elo.
Then you're an anime protag, cause you're suffering from amnesia.
Moody P (NA)
: You guys are right, champions walking at you slowly or running at you less slowly is toxic
Moody P (NA)
: none, this is why all new tanks are toxic and completely deserve to be in the spot they're in
News flash: The year is 2018, not 2012. If you want a more classic style of MOBA to play, DotA exists.
: About the Zoe buffs on PBE
Think of it like this: When preseason lands, you'll be able to spec your early stats to NOT die to her as easily, so there's room to improve her overall feel again now that Riot's tackled front loaded damage a bit. Also, these buffs are all mid/late game buffs. Her early snowballing is still going to be the same as its always been. You should have QSS/Banshee/Hexdrinker/Crucible/EoN by then.
Ætheist (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BM10PQG9,comment-id=00010000000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2018-10-19T03:28:00.011+0000) > > What type of tank just sits there and slows people all day in today's League of Legends? {{champion:111}}
Moody P (NA)
: blood boil buffed AP, AS and MS new one ~~only~~ grants attack speed and MS but current buff still gives you a) worse stats and b) no control on who it goes to, which is bad for balance and decision making
The old one made the stupid Karthus global 1-shot a thing. Like, overloading a useless ability until it isn't so useless just by virtue of shoving a shit ton of shit into it doesn't make it a well designed ability, nor does it make old Nunu's kit any actual good. What type of tank just sits there and slows people all day in today's League of Legends?
MegaHuff (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=z8IE09yP,comment-id=004e000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-18T17:19:58.586+0000) > > I'm going to tell you what my old AP English teacher told me: You can make a stronger argument when you can think on the counter-arguments yourself. > > Specifically on the shroud: The difference between Akali's shroud and other people's stealth is that Akali's shroud is a zone. Compared to a Twitch or an Evelynn or a Shaco, the amount of distance these champs can cover while undetected through normal means is way more vast. Shaco's Q can go *anywhere.* Twitch's Q can go *anywhere.* Eve is literally balanced around being difficult to track since she can be *anywhere.* Akali's shroud allows her to be invis, yeah, but you have a clear idea of where she is, and if she isn't in the shroud, you can see her walking off or coming towards you. > > Akali's stealth is stronger in combat because it loses out on the utility of being able to roam around and flank without being seen. Because it's weaker in THOSE areas, it's stronger for direct confrontations. It's a very clear trade-off and you're only thinking about it on a very surface level. You're not thinking about what she can't do with the move. What I'll say to that is, that's not the thing people dislike about Akali. Even if it is one small weakness, it doesn't change the fact that she's the only stealth in the game that actually affects turrets, when stealth is something that Riot just cleared up with their camouflage/invisibility changes a while back or whatever. It's a huge long anti fun stall move that just doesn't feel like it belongs. If you genuinely come here to ask why all the hate for Akali and that you don't understand, you have to actually read into what people are telling you. If you don't think the W is a problem that's fine, but plenty of people have been saying what I'm saying: it's just not a fun champ to play against. You can try to twist it around whatever way or cherry pick things to say like mages not being able to auto attack her isn't that bad, or whatever, but at the end of the day most people seem to feel that they don't want to go against a long "you can't see me" button constantly. I also don't understand why you bring up whatever your English teacher told you.
First, you need to make your point. Secondly, you should be able to argue your point. The reason I mentioned what my teacher taught me is because it helps with holistic thinking, so you can make a stronger case with less holes in it. If it just boils down to "it makes me uncomfortable", then that shows a very bad sign when it comes to how people see the game as a whole. Like, in Zoe's case, even with the counter-play present (dodge/take cleanse/buy 1 of 4 items that nullify cc/hard engage), the notion of being ass-blasted for most of or all of your hp for a single mistake can be frustrating, and you can make that case. Even though I'd take up the mantle for Zoe, I can at least *understand* frustration when she's like a damage output version of Blitz, where one mistake is A LOT of punishment, but she spends a lot of her time trying and retrying to make it happen. Like, as someone that lanes against Blitz all the time, Zoe's a new spin on relatively similar territory (dodge or die), but I can understand people not seeing it that way, and I can understand people not wanting to have their hp bar put in a retirement home after one slip up. In Akali's case, she's literally the opposite. She's entirely tuned around a hit-and-run play style so that there's more time to interact with the champ. Whether your options are flee, reposition, or just brawl it out, Akali's design *gives you time* to assess these things, which is **exactly what people cry for every day on these boards. This is why I'm so confused by everyone disliking Akali.** If I run into LB, LB is going to drop all her shit on me in less than a second. If I die at that moment, that's it. That's the interaction. That's the "game play", me getting face pummeled. If Akali lands E, you have a chance to counter the E. If she uses R, she's locked out of her finisher for like 2 seconds. If she uses Q...well Q is just filler for everything else, anyway. Because Akali has to elongate her kill pattern, if she doesn't have a means *to do this,* she'd literally be entirely worthless as a champion. Seeing how we're trying to *move away from 1-shots galore on assassins,* you'd think that the first successful attempt at reducing assassin burst speeds without making the champ fucking {{champion:107}} shit to play {{champion:7}} would at least garner some positive vibes on the boards, but now we're crying about *why* she's able to function without wiping you off the face of the planet in .3 seconds. The reason I want people to REALLY think on this subject is because the history as to why I have an issue with the complaints in the first place runs deeper than just "Akali". If we're HONESTLY saying Akali's a terrible design that makes everyone sad and so on and so forth, then assassins in general shouldn't even exist in League of Legends as far as I can tell. Between people hating front loaded damage, and now people hating the tools required to NOT be a shit ton of front loaded damage, you might as well just skip over the sub class because *that's all they do.*
Moody P (NA)
: Generic CC bot from buff tank who sapped AS sad
They still buff. It's on their passive and it automatically goes to the person with the highest attack speed. His clear niche is that he's strong for taking objectives. Turrets, dragons, barons, whatever. He enables faster clears of objectives.
: Because it's barely a nerf. 3 base AD isn't what's wrong with Graves. Him critting you for 2/3 of your HP with DH+Stormrazor interacting with his bullshit pellets gimmick is the problem. Same thing with Irelia. 5 MS isn't suddenly gonna stop her, because that isn't the problem with her. Her overbuffed minion Q damage is. Her W still, for some idiotic reason not being canceled by hard CC is. Her not being punished for not getting resets on Q is.
> [{quoted}](name=SithesisLord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tWsgyf0Q,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-10-18T11:37:53.717+0000) > > Because it's barely a nerf. > > 3 base AD isn't what's wrong with Graves. Him critting you for 2/3 of your HP with DH+Stormrazor interacting with his bullshit pellets gimmick is the problem. > > Same thing with Irelia. 5 MS isn't suddenly gonna stop her, because that isn't the problem with her. Her overbuffed minion Q damage is. Her W still, for some idiotic reason not being canceled by hard CC is. Her not being punished for not getting resets on Q is. Think on it like this: -3 AD on Graves effects EVERYTHING ABOUT GRAVES. His burst. His dps. His ability to get fed. Everything about Graves is nerfed with a base stat nerf. Him critting you doesn't matter if he can't buy crit as fast since he can't get fed as fast. In Irelia's case, her Q doesn't have a massive range, but it resets a lot. She's meant to Q all over to speed around, so *if you break that chain or if she's attempting to start it,* you can kite her easier. A base MS nerf cuts her ability to chase, flee, and engage large scale fights.
: > [{quoted}](name=xG Spectre,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0psAXOLO,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2018-10-18T21:11:01.645+0000) > > No one did poorly based on what? I'm pretty sure that unless you are diamond+, you have no clue whether your macro was good or not. What if she actually read your poor movement around the map like a book and just picked you off over and over again? 24/2 doesn't happen in a game where no one does poorly. If you argue otherwise, there must be a great deal of delusion involved. I'm not here to argue with teenagers on the internet. Keep the white knight holier than thou stuff out of this forum.
: So when is Riot going to do something about Zoe (aka counterplay, balance)?
iDarkWind (EUW)
: Man, I won't act like I remenber everything exactly how it was, but people praise season 5 a lot when in fact it's just their nostalgic feelings coming out. Season 5 was when I started playing League of Legends, and I remenber that Sejuani was a big abomination, and monstly any tank that abused Cinderhulk at the time was pretty strong, but why? Because they were tanky, had utility and OUTDAMAGED you. It was incredibly disgusting watching someone building only tank items and be completly immortal while doing damage. But it wasn't the worst part: The big juggernaut update. Holy sht. Go watch the vods of the worlds of that year. Mordekaiser perma pick / ban, Darius doing pentakills because he stacked his passive on one player and was enough to one shot squishy's almost with his R, Skarner had 65% Win Rate overall, and he had to be hotfixed and Garen pretty much do what he does nowdays, but we did even less damage to him than we do now. Where was the fun here? People let their nostaly take control and threads praising Season 5 like it was very balanced and had no flaws come and get upvoted.
> [{quoted}](name=iDarkWind,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tZPOcxjE,comment-id=000700020000,timestamp=2018-10-18T16:37:21.272+0000) > > Man, I won't act like I remenber everything exactly how it was, but people praise season 5 a lot when in fact it's just their nostalgic feelings coming out. > Season 5 was when I started playing League of Legends, and I remenber that Sejuani was a big abomination, and monstly any tank that abused Cinderhulk at the time was pretty strong, but why? > Because they were tanky, had utility and OUTDAMAGED you. It was incredibly disgusting watching someone building only tank items and be completly immortal while doing damage. > But it wasn't the worst part: > The big juggernaut update. Holy sht. Go watch the vods of the worlds of that year. Mordekaiser perma pick / ban, Darius doing pentakills because he stacked his passive on one player and was enough to one shot squishy's almost with his R, Skarner had 65% Win Rate overall, and he had to be hotfixed and Garen pretty much do what he does nowdays, but we did even less damage to him than we do now. > > Where was the fun here? People let their nostaly take control and threads praising Season 5 like it was very balanced and had no flaws come and get upvoted. Also started in preseason 5. That's...exactly what happened. Most ban phases were nothing but tanks until the jugs patch, and then most ban phases were ALL FOUR JUGS and 1 or 2 Sated Devourer users.
Dr Mercy (NA)
: > irrelevant to the conversation, we're strictly talking temporary eHP vs bought stats No, it's very relevant. How long you survive shouldn't be entirely dependent on your Stats or Shields, it should be how well you can apply your kit to a fight which includes Shields, Damage reductions or CC. Saying that it isn't relevant, means that you're comparing fights as only "Damage done, and damage taken," which simply isn't true. Surviving in a fight means more than taking damage, it's how you work the teamfight as a whole. > replacing the temporary absurdities of bonus eHP with an actually interesting spell This is where I think you're wrong. One, that's subjective. Two, most shields have a secondary focus attached to them than just Bonus HP. Sion's gives a good chunk of AOE damage if you can't break it, Naut gives him small AOE DoTs around his Autos, Ornn's and Urgots have their Damage abilities attached alongside their shields. You're simplifying abilities to say they're not interesting, but you don't look at them as anything but Shields. Sion's and Naut's Shields add threat to them, "Leaving me alone is going to benefit me", and helps draw focus towards them. Urgots and Ornns are certainly for survivability, but also because them using their offense abilities hinder them as well (Slowed down usually.) Sejuani's damage reduction encourages her to initiate fights first. Lastly, Shields are superior than base stats for more than eHP, which make them more effective at tanking. It allows them to tank more %HP damage, since it works off Health, not Shield HP. They scale with CDR, so they can get more Tankiness in prolonged fights, than simply losing more HP as time goes on. They help laning by sustaining against Poke, as opposed to slowly being worn down over time if more of Tankiness is in Stats alone. It honestly sounds more like you're complaining that more champs can't be like Volibear (No shield, no Damage reduct, passive tankiness only), when he himself is outdated design, and you'd rather change other champs and stats instead of the problems Voli obviously has.
> [{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tZPOcxjE,comment-id=000f0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-18T06:36:11.712+0000) > > It honestly sounds more like you're complaining that more champs can't be like Volibear (No shield, no Damage reduct, passive tankiness only), when he himself is outdated design, and you'd rather change other champs and stats instead of the problems Voli obviously has. Ding ding ding
Moody P (NA)
: pls stop homogenizing the roster
Nunu's still the best tank for securing objectives. Giving him ACTUAL ganks isn't "homogenizing" anything.
MegaHuff (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=z8IE09yP,comment-id=004e0000,timestamp=2018-10-14T02:16:53.443+0000) > > Shroud is a long cool down and you not being able to auto-attack her as a mage, or you missing her when she's stealthed when you can miss ANY stealth champion when they're stealthed, doesn't mean they lack interaction. > > Literally only when she shrouds, which is the same as Shaco being safe when his Q is up, or K6 being safe when R's up. Outside of that she's constantly pelted by incoming fire all laning phase, which is why you can find her with a Doran's Shield most of the time. > > People need to stop saying this when Ivern can make bushes in the middle of the lane, Bard can apply Zhonya's to anything with a health bar, Tahm Kench and Kalista can remove *other people* from play, and {{item:3056}} **literally turns your turret off.** > > Like, this needs to stop. Enough is enough. > > How many assassins have mobility into and out of fights? This isn't new. > > I bet your champ is unfun for someone on this planet. Akali isn't only allowed to focus mages, her stealth is more versatile than most, as most can't just invis instantly like Akali and Shaco (Twitch and Eve have a range where they can be revealed, Vayne can only do it while in ult and for 1 sec, etc. etc.) It does still lack interaction -- you don't get to really play against her when she's sitting inside shroud. She can also extend the duration of it and CDR exists. Akali's stealth isn't tied to her mobility, meaning even if her shroud is down and if she's not dumb she likely waited around enough to try to stall out one of her several escapes. Shaco's invis is both his escape and his initiate so he still is at a disadvantage once he uses it and he doesn't restealth every time he attacks a champion, even if he does get free movement. Also laning phase isn't the only thing that matters, and because of how much Akali is banned I don't get to play her against many champions, but she still feels like she sustains an okay amount, and I've seen people play her through spectating and her laning phase doesn't seem completely underwhelming or anything. She still is safe, with her long duration stealth (which isn't as long of CD as some people like to talk about when considering if it's late game and people have items.) The claim isn't that she has absolutely 0 potential to be shut down, it's that she's too safe. If she had a dash removed, or didn't have shroud, or wasn't allowed to sustain so her mistakes were more punishing, it wouldn't be as annoying -- but she can do all of those things and has energy so she never is completely out of resource. Even if she were near being so, her shroud now restores energy, so you can't even wait until she's low energy and capitalize sometimes. Ohmwrecker works for 3 seconds on a 120 second CD. Ivern's bushes can be played like an objective and taken over by either side. Complaining about that is like complaining about Skarner's crystal spire things existing (granted, those I might argue are better in the sense that they give Skarner himself a large steroid, where the bushes are more just bushes.) Bard's move actually is interesting because it has the potential to be harmful if the Bard isn't good, or be a huge game changer. Even if it's a unique capability to Bard it's still something you can play around to a degree. Akali puts down her shroud and most of the time the options are to sit there and wait for an opening or walk away. That's much less engaging of gameplay than Bard's ult -- you can completely dodge and negate Bard's ult (unless he's aiming for tower, they don't dodge.) Tahm's bite move, I'll say, is something I hear complained about a lot from my experience in the community, and I don't have strong opinions on him either way. I'll say I understand why people dislike his signature move, but I still personally don't think it's OP or anything as it's strong offensively and defensively, but has a hefty cooldown and potentially harms Tahm in the form of being slowed etc. Kalista's ult, also, while being weird and unlike most of League's moves, actually is interesting to use and play against (unless it's a literal troll Kalista) because it's a big knockup skillshot that both takes teamwork and can be devastating, but also since it requires teamwork, has the potential to set a team back. I feel like all of these moves have much larger drawbacks, whether it be Ohm's huge cooldown for it's time active, Tahm's "double-edged sword" nature of his bite, Bard's ult being an _ult_ so naturally having a long CD and meant to be powerful anyway, while also being a skillshot... I would choose to go against any one of those other moves, items, whatever than Akali's shroud of stalling, even if just to save me from the pure annoyance. Usually assassins have to choose whether they use their mobility to initiate or escape, and are still vulnerable targets, being so squishy, if they even end up near people, because unless you're Shaco and can point click stealth, you'll likely be somebody like Talon or Kass or something that relies more on the mobility to assassinate people than trickery. They still are weak enough to be beaten down if they step out of line. If Akali doesn't for some reason prematurely pop her shroud before she runs in at somebody, she's going to be able to at least partially avoid combat, which a lot of champions, even assassins, can't do. Twitch as an example again, can't just click his stealth button and turn invisible and get away. If somebody is near him while he's channeling his invis, they can strike him and extend the channel time, and even if he manages to go stealth he still has a detection radius. That, I feel, is completely fair to play against as the opponent of the stealth. Akali doesn't have that either. She wants to go invis, she will, and she will be able to mitigate damage that way, whether it be from being untargetable and having to be hit with AoE, the fact that she's just shrouded so you can't hit her easily with skillshots, whatever. At the end of the day, you still have much less of a choice about what goes on in that scenario vs. the Twitch scenario. It isn't "new" for assassins to have mobility, but what is new is for an assassin to have so much of it plus everything else Akali has on top of that. P.S. I don't have a champion. I like some, but I'm a flex player because I like variety and get bored and play worse when I force myself onto a single character. Either way, many people may have opinions about certain champs I may or may not play, but I'd argue those are more subjective. I do play Sion, so using him as an example, the most unfun thing somebody is going to complain about with Sion is probably how tanky he is, or something like that. That tends to be the nature of tanks. I think it's much more unfun across the board trying to play against Akali even if we're only considering her stealth, than Sion. Sion is at least an immobile wall of stats that I can build penetration against unless I'm playing another tank or something, and that's the simple counter to it. There isn't a ton of counterplay to a champion that doesn't rely on mana, has rule-defying stealth, several dashes, and all the other small things Akali has that she doesn't exactly need. I'll take my example champion Sion as an opponent over Akali any day, at least with the existing balance. I don't think Akali's overall design/feel is the worst thing for League. I think they were pretty on point with the theme of a ninja -- fast, deadly, execute-heavy, but you can't realistically put a character like Bard or Ivern on the same level as Akali. Akali just has too much stuff, and not enough engaging counterplay. P.P.S. No offense, but I've seen plenty of people trying to use champion-specific picks to try to claim that Akali has "counterplay." I don't partake in that mindset -- I believe counterpicks and counterplay are two completely different things, especially because pick order heavily influences whether you even have a choice in picking a certain champion or not. I try to look at this "going against Akali" thing from the viewpoint of several champions with different capabilities (I play top a lot so I play many tankier champions, like Sion, or Jax, but I try to look at things from the view of an opposing assassin, marksman, mage, etc. as well.) I honestly just don't know how you can't have a problem with the stealth at the very least. I don't even argue that she's the most broken thing League's seen, and I actually think some things are worse, but I don't think it's much debate that her stealth is just a stupid move at the very least.
I'm going to tell you what my old AP English teacher told me: You can make a stronger argument when you can think on the counter-arguments yourself. Specifically on the shroud: The difference between Akali's shroud and other people's stealth is that Akali's shroud is a zone. Compared to a Twitch or an Evelynn or a Shaco, the amount of distance these champs can cover while undetected through normal means is way more vast. Shaco's Q can go *anywhere.* Twitch's Q can go *anywhere.* Eve is literally balanced around being difficult to track since she can be *anywhere.* Akali's shroud allows her to be invis, yeah, but you have a clear idea of where she is, and if she isn't in the shroud, you can see her walking off or coming towards you. Akali's stealth is stronger in combat because it loses out on the utility of being able to roam around and flank without being seen. Because it's weaker in THOSE areas, it's stronger for direct confrontations. It's a very clear trade-off and you're only thinking about it on a very surface level. You're not thinking about what she can't do with the move.
: Inting Sion needs to be nerfed
The boards: Riot destroys off meta stuff all the time. Also the boards: Nerf anything I don't like. Also the boards: Riot only likes pro play. Also the boards: Why did you nerf Garen and Yorick and Ahri and Nami? Also the boards: Why does Riot never listen to us?
: > [{quoted}](name=A Bad Akali,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Pc76kA6c,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-10-17T16:27:11.401+0000) > > I'd be fine with ignite having True Sight. Would help counter {{champion:84}} shroud too, if this happened maybe people would finally stop crying about her shroud. Except her shroud ignores true sight abilities. People would stop complaining about her shroud if it didn’t immediately drop all tower threat.
Tower threat doesn't stop most assassins, so why should it stop this one?
Vekkna (NA)
: Just going to skip over most of the back-and-forth about specific champs. It boils down to you thinking that basic abilities like windwall and shroud are appropriately budgeted and are totally healthy on carries. I couldn't disagree more, and I have a list of counterpoints to your comment, but it won't change the fundamental disagreement. >To be frank, I HIGHLY disagree. You're confusing gimmicks and niches. I'm describing a specific thing using too broad of a term. Let me add some definitions as I understand them. * Champion/Meta Niche: This refers to a champion who brings something unique to the table in terms of the overall meta. Examples are Pyke as assassin support, Ivern as jungle support, Ezreal as a skillshot caster hybrid adc, Taric as an enchanter tank, Azir as a mage dps hypercarry. Those are examples of unfilled niches that were filled by a new design. * Unique Mechanics/Designs: This refers mostly to innovation without necessarily filling a meta niche. Examples are Jhin's ammo, Graves' shotgun, Talon's and Camille's wall jumps, new Aatrox box, ults on Poppy, Kindred, Galio, Ryze, etc. They're all things we haven't really seen before, and they add gameplay depth in a way that bends the rules without being totally one-sided advantages * Gameplay Niche: I think of this more in terms of a champion's feel, flavor, appeal, and style *in conjunction* with the champion's role. There are a lot of intangibles here. Old Evelynn's build diversity and adaptability was part of her identity and appeal for years. Same goes for Quinn's range/melee hybrid and Galio's melee-mage-tank-caster hybrid. * Gimmicks: These are on the continuum of unique designs, and obviously there's a lot of opinion here. In general, I would define these as unique designs that function as unnecessary skill barriers, annoyances, or inconveniences but without being at least as satisfying as they are annoying. Examples are vitals, Poppy passive, shotgun knees, worked ground, rng seeds, terrain limited tentacles, daggers, barrels, Sej's melee ally stun, Kled mount and remount, Kalista's ult and passive, etc. Riot focuses exclusively on the first and second in that list and imo often stumbles into the fourth. Every Riot discussion about reworks and new champ designs has made it clear that they do not believe the third point justifies the existence of any champ. In the mage update they commented that a variety of mages all did the same things without much reason to pick one over the other. But the reason I pick Lux over Xerath and Zyra over Brand has literally nothing to do with which one was stronger. I picked based on aesthetics, how they felt to play, and the items I like building. So in a misguided attempt to distinguish them from other mages, Riot updated Brand and Zyra to add more uniqueness. We all know what happened after that. Zyra ended up more frustrating to play against, play as, and much harder to balance. Brand ended up pigeonholed to support as a completely item- and level-independent % health shredder with % so high that he's completely target agnostic. This relates to Akali because they just did it to her. I think her design is actually really fun and engaging even without the shroud rulebreaking. But Riot only thinks that champs deserve to exist if they have some new unique thing that hasn't been seen before. So the next step is to make Shroud immune to turrets and true sight (ignite, Oracle's, etc). >...but when Riot follows through on a cool idea for how stealth can work...you're upset? I mean, I also think Karma should have been addressed ages ago, but I don't follow that logic It's possible to find new applications or configurations for designs like stealth without breaking all of the most fundamental rules that apply to that thing. Another example of how they disregard fundamental rules is with recent zoning spells. The point of zoning is to create an area of threat that forces the enemy to react with a decision. This has been applied almost universally as meaning that zoning skills *either* deal meaningful damage *or* force movement through zoning. Lux throws out an E and either detonates it for damage *or* leaves it on the ground to zone; it's not both. Other things like pets and ground dots deal damage over time, and the damage is pretty miniscule *unless* you stay in the zone. The exceptions are all ults (Kat, MF, Kennen, Rumble). Recent designs violate that rule by dealing meaningful damage up front and then force movement under threat of *even more* damage. Examples are Azir Q, Ekko Q, Graves Q, Irelia R, Xayah quills, Galio Q, Kat Q+P, etc. In fact, Yorick and Anivia were both reworked because of the combination of initial damage plus residual zoning power. >game needs more new shit. The game needs more things that are different from existing things so it's not as easy to have one champ replace all preexisting champs. Newer designs are pushes in that direction, and I don't think people should be getting salty over that. I agree in theory, but I think Riot just isn't very good at doing this in a way that feels like everyone is playing by the same rules. Nor are they releasing new designs at a pace that live balance can keep up with.
> [{quoted}](name=Vekkna,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=z8IE09yP,comment-id=0054000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-17T17:34:56.721+0000) > * Champion/Meta Niche: This refers to a champion who brings something unique to the table in terms of the overall meta. Examples are Pyke as assassin support, Ivern as jungle support, Ezreal as a skillshot caster hybrid adc, Taric as an enchanter tank, Azir as a mage dps hypercarry. Those are examples of unfilled niches that were filled by a new design. A niche isn't *what you do.* That's your gimmick. Your niche is *what you accomplish.* Say we have Vi and Camille. Vi's niche, although she's surpassed in this field, is flying into the back line and singling out back line carries. However, Camille came out and does that better and then some. Sure, Vi's gimmick is to click on someone with R with inescapable cc, but seeing how Camille ALSO locks onto enemies with her R, what does Vi necessarily accomplish to set her apart from Camille? Nothing. This clash in niches makes it so people just use Camille since she's the better option for this function. Someone building AP on Shyv or AD on Evelynn isn't their "niche". That's simply a gimmick. Build diversity is *rarely* ever a part of a champion's niche. > Riot focuses exclusively on the first and second in that list and imo often stumbles into the fourth. Every Riot discussion about reworks and new champ designs has made it clear that they do not believe the third point justifies the existence of any champ. Because you don't realize that wonky builds or useless ults aren't a niche. > In the mage update they commented that a variety of mages all did the same things without much reason to pick one over the other. But the reason I pick Lux over Xerath and Zyra over Brand has literally nothing to do with which one was stronger. I picked based on aesthetics, how they felt to play, and the items I like building. That has very little to do with champion niches or game balance in general. Also, mages DID have an issue with building the exact same items, which is why they reworked the itemization at the time (and then again later). > So in a misguided attempt to distinguish them from other mages, Riot updated Brand and Zyra to add more uniqueness. We all know what happened after that. Zyra ended up more frustrating to play against, play as, and much harder to balance. Brand ended up pigeonholed to support as a completely item- and level-independent % health shredder with % so high that he's completely target agnostic. 1) The issue with ALL the class reworks is that they didn't put enough resources into any of the individual reworks. Brand's whole game play pattern is the exact same, save his passive blowing people up, for example. This is simply what happens when Riot tries to deal with this issue without investing enough resources into it. 2) Plenty of people were complaining that Zyra was in need of changes, specifically her passive and the fact that she hardly utilized her plants. The rework was done on behalf of the community to make Zyra rely more on plants like the community wanted. > This relates to Akali because they just did it to her. She was insanely toxic and highly requested for a rework BEFORE now. This is the same thing the community did with Aatrox. People constantly begged for him to be worked on more and more. Riot gave the dude decently sized changes and they STILL kept pestering Riot on "Any more changes for Aatrox". Finally, when they change him THE HELL UP, everyone acts like they didn't want major changes to the champ. > I think her design is actually really fun and engaging even without the shroud rulebreaking. But Riot only thinks that champs deserve to exist if they have some new unique thing that hasn't been seen before. So the next step is to make Shroud immune to turrets and true sight (ignite, Oracle's, etc). It's not just about "being fun". League is a competitive game. Yeah, new additions should be fun, but if you keep adding champs without making sure they're *useful,* you're adding to the **breadth** of the roster without working on the roster's **depth.** In Akali's case, because her stealth is in a controlled space, where you know she is even if you can't see her, the design decision was to have her stealth be stronger than others as a baseline since she's limited in mobility while utilizing it. It's a trade off. Stronger stealth while losing the ability to leave that general area with it. > It's possible to find new applications or configurations for designs like stealth without breaking all of the most fundamental rules that apply to that thing. Stop it with talking about "rules" to a thing. Ivern's literally "BroKEn tHe RuLEz" of jg buffs and we never had a single person complain about "The rules of the game". That among other things from other champs. The only thing that differentiates a mechanic or interaction that exists and one that doesn't is its implementation. Grounded didn't exist until Cass in the mage rework. We've never heard of anti-dash specific cc until Poppy showed up, and then they did something similar for Volibear after. The game provides a framework, and the rest is up to the champion designers. Like, I could get into that insanely flimsy example about zoning abilities (Xayah's quills are rule breaking tools for zoning people with threat of damage, while Lux's E is a threat of damage that slows people as long as you want to while providing vision, which is totally fine because you specifically play Lux), but the point is that you have misunderstandings about some fundamental concepts for the game.
: ***
I'm not derailing the thread into an elo fight, for the both of us.
saltran (EUW)
: Yes
> [{quoted}](name=saltran,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2R4E4ilf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-16T19:32:29.199+0000) > > Yes
: Plat for 3 seasons - Can't get out of silver this season
...Viktor IS a late game carry, though. Vel'Koz can also do well in the late game. Doesn't mean you're wrong, though. League is becoming more like the team game it was meant to be, but that means that dragging people to the victory by the shoe strings isn't as easy when they're fucking dense or fucking childish. In older seasons, you'd pick Riven, get fed, and run everyone over. Now we have less balancing issues like that, but not having to exploit makes it so that it's harder for players that'd abuse a snowball heavy play style to close out without dropping their lead somewhere or simply not closing in time.
kargish (EUW)
: Picking pre-2016 releases these days is practically handicapping yourself. I met ya when {{champion:82}} get his VGU in 2019 he'll be packed with CC and some gimmick mechanic that'll break the rules of the game.
Vekkna (NA)
: >For starters, like I've said, what defines "fair" or "unfair" in League? I have my own definition, but it's irrelevant to my point, which is that Blaus is aware of the broad perception that CT champs are frustrating/unfair. Instead of assuming that players know the first thing about their own experiences and perceptions, he just dismisses it outright in favor of a facially ridulous argument about popularity. >I'm actually sick of that "argument". It's an insanely weak one that does nothing but scream "I can't handle people doing new things in this game". I can't speak for other people, but that isn't my complaint. First off, Yasuo isn't new, and I've never played League without him in it (sadly). Second, I don't have complaints about every new champ or every "complaint magnet champ." Camille, Kai'sa, Kayn, and Aatrox are a few examples. Plenty of new shit there to complain about, but I don't find myself feeling helpless against them. >The point is that you're supposed to see she used it and not play into her strengths. Correct. And my point is that near-absolute, unilateral control over the terms of any fight is not an appropriate "strength" for a carry to have. It's even problematic when you're dedicating an entire player to that role, as we've seen with Janna for the past....forever. Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of bitching ready to unload about Shaco, Twitch, and Kha. At least their re-stealthing requires blowing an ult cooldown. It says something about Shroud's power level when the only other in-combat re-stealth abilities are *all* ultimates (Shaco, Kha, Vayne). >If it's a skirmisher like Yasuo and his windwall or something, ALL skirmishers have really strong defensive tools. This is sort of an extension of my previous point about Shroud's power relative to other stealth and re-stealth abilities. Yes, all skirmishers do have strong defense tools *to defend themselves.* How many have damage/ability-nullifying defense that defends their entire team against the entire enemy team? I can think of a handful of those abilities in the whole game (Galio, Karma, Kindred, Poppy, Soraka, Taric, and Xin). All of them are ultimates. Again, similar to Akali, as much as I hate Windwall, I don't think that it's *inherently* toxic. I just think that it needs adjustments if it's going to exist as a basic ability on Yasuo alongside his passive and bone plating. At the moment I think it's too strong at reactively blocking things and shouldn't take effect until the end of its cast time. Should also have duration scale with rank and not grant vision (which was removed from every other similar spell). >I don't even know what that means. I meant to say "I absolutely resent the fact that she has to be balanced **around** a toxic design rather than her actual objective power level." Various Rioters have repeatedly stated that certain nerfs to Zyra are being done to lower enemy frustration against her, and certain buffs and QoL changes cannot be done because they feel too oppressive in spite of whether they're objectively imbalanced. Case in point is that 7.24 plant hp nerfs that turned her into a frustrating mess to play. Despite being on record saying that Zyra mid is weak to the point of unviability, the plant health was nerfed into oblivion because the playtesters thought she felt too oppressive to lane against - moreso than Heimer, Malz, or Anivia. In other words, if her power level is at the weak end of viability in a solo lane, she supposedly becomes too frustrating to exist. The enemy's feelings of frustration dictate Zyra's balance to the point that Riot chooses to keep her weak at all ranks and strictly non-competitive in higher elo. The same thing (in reverse) happened to Kalista and Zoe. In other words, my dislike of CTs designs is based on my experience playing *as* one of them as much as playing *against* them. Blaustoise says that players have so much fun playing CTs champs, but that ignores the frustration his designs also cause to those players. Good luck finding a bunch of Kalista, Morde, Zoe, Cait, and Zyra mains who think it's fun maining a champ that's always on the balance rollercoaster and/or the icebox. >and more shit like Rakan or Pyke, where you have a distinguishable point to why you're in the game and why you're important to the match. A legitimate niche. Yep, and this is where I think Riot is completely wrong. Notice that they only talk about niche in terms of gameplay and never in terms of theme, aesthetic, or visuals. That's because they don't think that a champion can justify its existence through artistic/thematic novelty. Champions only deserve to exist if they can find some meta niche or some longstanding rule to violate. It's also worth noting that Riot really isn't very good at appreciating the unique novelty of older designs. For examples, look at reworks like Quinn, Evelynn, Katarina, Galio, and Karma. * Quinn: Deleted niche of a transforming ADC range/melee hybrid. * Evelynn: Riot identified her niche as her perma-stealth rather than her build diversity and dynamic build-reliant playstyle variations. * Katarina: Riot identified her niche as "jumping knife lady" rather than her now-deleted niche as a late-scaling team-fight assassin-mage. * Galio: Deleted niche of a melee mage caster and replaced with more generic AP bruiser. * Karma: Literally everything. Those designs weren't exactly clean and cohesive, but they had clear niches that were deleted in order to make them more generic. But Riot thinks these are all improvements, which is why I think they use the word "niche" but the results are just gimmicks or cheap rulebreaking. Nobody thinks Urgot's shotgun knees give him a clearer niche. You can see what I mean in the recent post about Karma's tether. What stands out is just how conventional and boxed-in their thinking is. And when they couldn't force the tether into that box, they gave up on it.
> [{quoted}](name=Vekkna,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=z8IE09yP,comment-id=00540001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-16T16:58:34.449+0000) > > I have my own definition, but it's irrelevant to my point, which is that Blaus is aware of the broad perception that CT champs are frustrating/unfair. Instead of assuming that players know the first thing about their own experiences and perceptions, he just dismisses it outright in favor of a facially ridulous argument about popularity. You can't say "Western regions hate Yasuo. Gotta scrap him" when an entire other region that's either just as big or even bigger loves him. They know NA hates him. They ALSO know Asia loves him. You can't just tunnel vision on NA's concerns. > Correct. And my point is that near-absolute, unilateral control over the terms of any fight is not an appropriate "strength" for a carry to have. Your issue is that you're way too spooked over the potential of this one ability. There's PLENTY of abilities that are just as good or even better in different ways, in different scenarios. It really just depends on what you're working with. > Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of bitching ready to unload about Shaco, Twitch, and Kha. At least their re-stealthing requires blowing an ult cooldown. It says something about Shroud's power level when the only other in-combat re-stealth abilities are *all* ultimates (Shaco, Kha, Vayne). Twitch re-stealth isn't tied to an ultimate cool down. It's tied to killing someone. > This is sort of an extension of my previous point about Shroud's power relative to other stealth and re-stealth abilities. Yes, all skirmishers do have strong defense tools *to defend themselves.* How many have damage/ability-nullifying defense that defends their entire team against the entire enemy team? I can think of a handful of those abilities in the whole game (Galio, Karma, Kindred, Poppy, Soraka, Taric, and Xin). All of them are ultimates. Poppy's W isn't an ultimate, but it can protect an entire team from mobility. Cass W isn't an ultimate, either. Knock-backs and knock-ups of any kind will void any mobility they pass through, and many of those aren't ultimates. Braum's Unbreakable isn't an ultimate. Lux and Sona have potentially team-wide shielding without ults. Just as examples. > Again, similar to Akali, as much as I hate Windwall, I don't think that it's *inherently* toxic. I just think that it needs adjustments if it's going to exist as a basic ability on Yasuo alongside his passive and bone plating. At the moment I think it's too strong at reactively blocking things and shouldn't take effect until the end of its cast time. Should also have duration scale with rank and not grant vision (which was removed from every other similar spell). It's a defensive ability. Imagine if Kench's devour didn't work until the end of the eating animation, and any damage that was coming in before that still connected. It wouldn't be problematic for being too good, but it'd be problematic for being too garbage. Same thing here, except it doesn't void incoming damage and only prevents further targeted damage (just like any other stealth). > I meant to say "I absolutely resent the fact that she has to be balanced **around** a toxic design rather than her actual objective power level." Various Rioters have repeatedly stated that certain nerfs to Zyra are being done to lower enemy frustration against her, and certain buffs and QoL changes cannot be done because they feel too oppressive in spite of whether they're objectively imbalanced. So...she SHOULDN'T have plant interactions? I don't know what you exactly *want* for Zyra with a complaint like this one. This happens because champs with a large amount of power locked behind AI controlled elements tend to bend over and slam low elo. > Case in point is that 7.24 plant hp nerfs that turned her into a frustrating mess to play. Despite being on record saying that Zyra mid is weak to the point of unviability, the plant health was nerfed into oblivion because the playtesters thought she felt too oppressive to lane against - moreso than Heimer, Malz, or Anivia. In other words, if her power level is at the weak end of viability in a solo lane, she supposedly becomes too frustrating to exist. Not every champ goes more than one lane. Shit happens. Vi was SUPPOSED to be a top laner, for example. > The enemy's feelings of frustration dictate Zyra's balance to the point that Riot chooses to keep her weak at all ranks and strictly non-competitive in higher elo. The same thing (in reverse) happened to Kalista and Zoe. In other words, my dislike of CTs designs is based on my experience playing *as* one of them as much as playing *against* them. No no no, here's the thing, my guy. Zoe and Kalista weren't nerfed solely due to frustration. They were nerfed for being insanely strong pro game picks ON TOP OF being frustrating. > Blaustoise says that players have so much fun playing CTs champs, but that ignores the frustration his designs also cause to those players. Good luck finding a bunch of Kalista, Morde, Zoe, Cait, and Zyra mains who think it's fun maining a champ that's always on the balance rollercoaster and/or the icebox. Morde's rework was a band-aid. It's not really fair to include it. Cait's issue isn't CT's rework more than it's her natural 650 range and marksman scaling. Her logistics naturally lead to her punishing most lesser-ranged champs during lane, and she still has a good late game, regardless. Her power curve's really weird and clumsy and Riot hasn't invested much time into fixing it. > Yep, and this is where I think Riot is completely wrong. Notice that they only talk about niche in terms of gameplay and never in terms of theme, aesthetic, or visuals. That's because they don't think that a champion can justify its existence through artistic/thematic novelty. Champions only deserve to exist if they can find some meta niche or some longstanding rule to violate. > > It's also worth noting that Riot really isn't very good at appreciating the unique novelty of older designs. For examples, look at reworks like Quinn, Evelynn, Katarina, Galio, and Karma. > > * Quinn: Deleted niche of a transforming ADC range/melee hybrid. > * Evelynn: Riot identified her niche as her perma-stealth rather than her build diversity and dynamic build-reliant playstyle variations. > * Katarina: Riot identified her niche as "jumping knife lady" rather than her now-deleted niche as a late-scaling team-fight assassin-mage. > * Galio: Deleted niche of a melee mage caster and replaced with more generic AP bruiser. > * Karma: Literally everything. > > Those designs weren't exactly clean and cohesive, but they had clear niches that were deleted in order to make them more generic. But Riot thinks these are all improvements, which is why I think they use the word "niche" but the results are just gimmicks or cheap rulebreaking. Nobody thinks Urgot's shotgun knees give him a clearer niche. To be frank, I HIGHLY disagree. You're confusing gimmicks and niches. Quinn: Yeah she doesn't "transform into a bird", but what did doing that *actually accomplish?* Nothing of value. She becomes melee, while being as squishy as she always was, with no escapes. She essentially became a dive bomber, and it didn't give anyone *a reason to pick her.* Not just a gimmick, **but a niche.** There's a difference. Evelynn: Build diversity isn't a niche. Anyone can build a random item. Her in-game niche IS her perma-stealth, and they also added her synergy with other ap champs since she degrades MR with her W. Building AD on an AP champion isn't appreciable power for an AP champion to have. It's as moronic as buffing Shyv's AP ratios to convince people to int with AP Shyvanna. Katarina: She never scaled into late-game well because she gets cc'd and blown up, and she's still the assassin that plays into aoe team fighting, hence the new passive that makes her cast mini-spins when picking up knives. So her niche was never removed. Galio: He's a bit less mage and a bit more tank, but he's still melee and can still be built ap. Also, what IS a "generic AP bruiser"? We don't even have one in this game. Galio doesn't play like a Battle Mage, and Diana's the only ACTUAL "ap bruiser" in the game...who plays like an assassin with no escapes. How can you have a "generic AP bruiser" when there aren't any AP bruisers save Galio? > You can see what I mean in the recent post about Karma's tether. What stands out is just how conventional and boxed-in their thinking is. And when they couldn't force the tether into that box, they gave up on it. So lemme get this straight: When Riot gives up on their crazy ideas on how to make Karma's tether work, you're upset... ...but when Riot follows through on a cool idea for how stealth can work...you're upset? I mean, I also think Karma should have been addressed ages ago, but I don't follow that logic. The game needs more new shit. The game needs more things that are different from existing things so it's not as easy to have one champ replace all preexisting champs. Newer designs are pushes in that direction, and I don't think people should be getting salty over that.
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chipndip1

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