: SKARNER BUFFS?
Signed on just to celebrate the buffs. Haven't played much the past few months. I tried skarner with the new runes for awhile, and felt he was in kind of a meh place. And I am one of those rare Skarner mains. These are solid buffs, longer stun time means greater CD reduction for each stun. An extra second off of E for stunning two people is respectable. He will also have an extra .5 seconds of MS and AS for each stun. The MS might help him close on another person, or the AS will help him get an extra attack off on the stunned enemy. The Damage on his E is a fairly significant buff but not as important :P Overall I'm happy that skarner is getting some love, I hope they go through. Of course the real love will come when Skarner gets some more significant changes. Particularly to his innate.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 19
Are the {{champion:68}} changes still on the way? I play him off and on and I really like adding some power into his overheated state. The trade off is fun but right now it feels a little worse to be over heated than I think its meant to be. Adding a little move speed while over heated in particular is exciting for me, even if it just lasts a second and is only towards enemy champions, it will help a lot feel wise. It would kind of suck to over heat for those juicy autos and never be able to close the gap. Thanks!
Meddler (NA)
: Nothing currently scheduled. He's strong, but not so strong we need to take power off him at present. Spire gameplay's not great, but also not problematic enough to push other champions who need the work more out of priority.
That's a little disappointing, hopefully the emotional roller coaster skarner players have been on for the past few years will be ended eventually. Edit: Thanks for responding!
: when we will see changes for {{champion:72}}?
Logged in to third this. Love the guy, really hope they do a pass on his points like they have talked in the past.
jo9901 (NA)
: Ah, cool. I played skarner a bit before, got him to level 5. I'm planning on getting him to lvl 7 next. Any tips on doing well as skarner? Since i have him at lvl 5, i have an OK handle on his kit, but I typically play mages like velkoz and ASol, so skarner is a little harder for me to get a good handle on.
Just takes time to get experience on him, knowing when to go in, getting good about hitting E's. I play him with movement quints, and typically get ibg/black cleaver over trinity force. Trinity force is really good right now, and a solid pick, but it kind of sucks up a lot of room on my builds, and I like how stick you get with both the slow and the haste. I don't like Dead Man's plate on him. He is subject to so many slows and stuns, and the on hit overlaps with his on hit stun. I also pick up phantom dancer if the game is a blow out for more stickiness and the lulz.
jo9901 (NA)
: There's a skarner rework?
They said they are going to change the shrines a bit, and shift him towards vanguard from juggernaut stat wise. Thought it might be an opportunity to add some mechanics to bring his kit together a bit more.
XuWarrior (EUW)
: @Evryone around gettin "revert reworks , reworks , reworks 231312 times , buffs" meanwhile Skarner.
Shahamut (NA)
: Skarner Rework Idea
I really like the passive on his ultimate, level 1 seems so weak though, even with an attack speed steroid. ! percent current health and a 10 percent slow ever 5 strikes is kind of tame. I posted in another thread, but I think that one change that can be made pretty easily on the ultimate is granting Skarner bonus movement speed for x seconds when moving towards enemy champions after the ult ends.
Rioter Comments
Statikk (NA)
: We're really back and forth on Skarner. It feels like his R and disables are such huge defining features of his playstyle which is very initiation / Vanguard focused. If Skarner can truly be built as a huge sustained damage threat, that's pretty cool that he can maybe choose which role he wants to play for his team in a given game. Part of our reasoning was looking up the data on Skarner's average Damage Dealt per game. Currently it's among the lowest in the game which led us to believe that he is primarily used for his crowd control.
Will Skarner's shift away from juggernaut happen in the next few patches?
: > [{quoted}](name=corals,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=gq2cRr7o,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-05-06T23:41:04.173+0000) > > Dont change his Q, i love his Q, give his Q the vlad treatment maybe. in some way you are right, we grew accostumed to his Q, but the problem is after the removal of AS/MS from Q it became a bit empty, you simply spam it now for sheen procs.
> [{quoted}](name=Venus Project,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=gq2cRr7o,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-05-07T16:27:39.020+0000) > > in some way you are right, we grew accostumed to his Q, but the problem is after the removal of AS/MS from Q it became a bit empty, you simply spam it now for sheen procs. I agree, definitely got some room. What if the empowered Q gets further empowerment every 10 seconds in combat, dealing additional damage and slowing. Empowered Q lowers the cd by one second per champ hit.
: any good news for Skarner?
Dont change his Q, i love his Q, give his Q the vlad treatment maybe.
: I can definitely agree with most of this. The spires are probably a big part of the reason he doesn't see higher level play often. Supports roaming as often as they do likely means that the spires turn into mini Skarner-detecting "vision" wards for the enemy team. I wonder if since he's a Vanguard he'd work better with an Aegis sort of passive (like Xin but reverse) that stacks up when "his kind-->his team" is near? Or would that be completely off?... idk he needs _something_ though and I'm wondering how they'd make it cohesive.
When you say Xin are you referring to Irelias tenacity innate?
: @Meddler Can Skarner get the Kindred treatment?
I jungle Skarner a lot, and I have to say that I have been doing better with him lately. He probably still needs some work, but with nerfs going out to jungle items and top junglers like udyr going out and with the adc ecosystem being toned down, he is feeling better. The spires aren't necessarily my favorite thing, but they are functional and unique. I can successfully use them to invade junglers who might not be able to counter them. I had a good game against Graggas, and was able to use them to fend off nunu. Use them to track the other jungler. That being said they have there issues. For example the opponents get more use out of them when Skarner or his team is behind since he has to take them. They mentioned balancing Skarner as a tank, which probably means lowering his damage, which probably means that the spires will have to be balanced around a tank kit instead of a juggernaut kit. So TLDR is the spires do have an undeniable impact on his game play, but they have issues that might become problematic for Skarners balance in the future. Also they are unpopular anyways so maybe rework them.
: Mid Season Magic sprinkled on Skarner
I will be back, I will post here. I have played Slarner since release. I have thoughts on this topic. Also thank you, Skarners kit has been begging for a lair type ability since his release.
: people learnt how to deal with skarner as soon as his numbers got toned down (i'm talking about his 2nd rework, the first one was terrible), and after that he was fine, with none ranting at him anymore. I agree, his q is just dps, there's no actual reason to max it over his E. as it is now, unless it gets some kind of effect attached on, i would actually rebuild it from the ground ad make it new skill, to shit skarner more into his vanguard role.
I wouldn't want an entirely new skill slotted into Q. It has been this low cool down AOE ability since Skarner's release. I am attached to it as a Skarner player. I think it has room for an additional effect, but I want it to generally keep its spammy nature.
corals (NA)
: About shifting Skarner to a tank.
I should say that right now one of the high points of Skarner for me is getting multiple stuns off, so if going tank meant doubling down on that I would appreciate that. I still want to keep flexible item paths though.
: He can't be shifted to a tank; he already is one.
He is played as a tank, but was envisioned as a juggernaut. I actually don't really like how straight tank Skarner feels right now. He doesn't have the damage or innitiation of other champs that play straight tank like ammumu or sejuanni. I think its because he doesn't have health scaling damage, so his dps falls off harder then those if he goes straight tank. So yeah, there probably is work that can be done to make him feel good as a tank.
: i'm not fine with his ability to lane, not to this degree. shifting his spires into lane would make him stupidly broken on the other hand. So yes, certainly his passive needs work again: i appreciate how the spires bring more depht and strategy into skarner's gameplay, but it's badly executed. i proposed to split the Energize buff between his Q procs and the spires: spires get still the major part of the buff (like 20 - 50 ms and 20%-100% as), and you get the rest as you hit the enemy 1/2/3 times with q (5/10/20 ms and 10/20/30% - 20/40/60% as). the buffs merge when skarner procs q into his zones, so that valuse are as live (sorry for making it complicated, but i'm not mothertongue =) ). i like his E too, you can actually do lots of stuffs with it now! Your solution feels wierd, but i need more time to understand why.. i don't have any issues with mixed identity, as long as it feels cohesive and not disruptive. i mean, if you can play a champion in different ways, it feels nice and not toxic, why not? also, being a generalist was always skarner's thing. he was a "jack of all trades, master of none", he was very flexible in terms of role and builds. i'd rather him to be a fast moving vanguard, as you can read in the comment above =).
I have always like Skarner because of his flexible build path. Changes that restrict that would probably bug me. Attaching move speed and attack speed was one of the things that made skarner hard to balance with the last rework. His Q offered to much, and made his mid game power spike a little unbearable if he got fed. That being said I wouldn't mind seeing his Q get something else, for example I like what they did with Vlad's Q with the crimson rush. Adding something similar, like maybe every x seconds in combat his empowered Q gets additional benefits (bigger/applies grounded or a slow or something.) Then have the q lower that cool down by .5 seconds for each champ it hits or something. More complexity, up to a point, gives riot additional levers to balance a champ.
: You can find the post somewhere in the discussion of the "classes and subclasses" devblog =) i rather him to be a vanguard than a warden, because what always kept me on skarner for around 3 years, is his chasing potential: chasing someone as skarner always excites me, it rewards skill and knowledge of the game, so it never gets old =). However, skarner is expected to receive a full vgu sometimes in the future, since his third rework wasn't well executed for some devs. My issue with the spires are two actually, although i appreciate their purpose to bring more depht to skarner gameplay: 1) they bottlenecked him to the jungle. i mean, laning it's not impossible, but in all seriousness...you're giving up like 30% of his power (my personal estimate, not an accurate one, based the average power of the spire versus how much you'll be using them in the average jungle game). this can be linked to problem 2): he feels incredibily clunky out of his spires. that is because of the power he had to give up to make these spires relevant. sure, you feel said clunkiness less once in lategame, with at least 3 full items, but it's still so painful. his damage needs work yeah, but not that much: generally he's a decent dps dealer, but if they want to shift him to a tank role, they need to get rid of the bonus attack speed from the spires, because it encourages juggernaut builds.
I am fine with his inability to lane. I like the attack speed actually, I like how it interacts with his E. I did have the suggestion of changing the attack speed to on hit magic damage that increases over time while he is on the spires. Then is expended similar to Thresh's E. As for vanguard versus warden, I would take either actually, depending on what the changes were. I am just not really satisfied with his current quasi juggernaut incarnation. I would take more damage for less utility, or more utility for less damage, so long as the kit works in the role.
: My brother plays mainly Skarner and was overall happy with the update. Phant0mHawk is my brother^^ and he's been playing Skarner for a very very long time. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/7t5jd226-1000th-normal-win-would-like-to-play-skarner-jungle-with-someone-who-worked-on-skarner Too bad he's not a board poster though >.> I read him your thread though and he said he most liked the e-->ult interaction and the changes to W. He said W is apparently perfect now? But he wants the rocks gone since they give the enemy information and he mostly just ignores taking them post-first clear anyways. If they were to change anything my brother would want the Q movespeed on-hit back. (but not the crystal stacking mechanic obviously).
W is fine now as it is, I am just not sure what it will look like on a tanks kit. I miss his easier access to attack speed, I liked that he could theoretically do on hit builds. I am not sure how his spires factor into his kit as a tank. If he loses damage then he loses clear speed and will probably lose his higher end jungling presence. Maybe buff the AS they offer early? At this point the numbers for that kind of stuff will end up where they end up. I wouldn't mind a new innate though.
: Meddler said he'd rather him to be a vanguard...after all the ccs he got are already nice, his damage needs work (especially the one the gets from the spires, those are his biggest issue to me)
Vangaurd are the initiators? Can you link to that post. Skarner has always been kind of a poor initiator compared to the champs like mummy, Zac and Malphite. He just doesn't have the AOE lockdown. I suppose if they made his W speed boost more along the lines of Rammus. I could see it being reduced from 6 seconds to maybe 4 seconds, having a weaker shield, but stronger movespeed. Would make him combo better with his E since he would be able to close the gap better. Still not sure it would work out, I guess it comes down to what they chose to do. What are your issues with the spires, and what do you mean his damage needs work?
: i thought skarner was already a tank?
They classify him as a Juggernaut. Though Riot seems to feel that the juggernaut space doesn't suit him well. I am not sure what they think shifting him to a tank with buffs/nerfs means. I am guessing lower damage higher utility. This would make him a warden?
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=Crewx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fE7zWxFq,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-04-07T01:18:39.896+0000) > > His winrate is high because the only people who play him have always played him, and thus have years and years of experience playing him. Same reason why Galio has a good winrate, despite everyone nearly universally agreeing he needs changes. His playerbase average games is 44. Compare that to 166 on Fiddlesticks jungle, who has a considerably lower win rate. Or 109 on Shaco, 90+ on Rengar, 80+ on Eve, 70+ on Wukong/Sion/Lee Sin, etc... Of all champions, he ranks 81 in playerbase average games played (admittedly skewed by multi-role champions as the list has over 160, but point is he's right in the dead center for average games played). So no, people don't have more experience on him at all. Given how recent his rework was, I'd say it's even worse. You can't possibly have played the reworked Skarner for years, he's not even been out for 1. 32% of Skarner players have 1-5 games on him (and they have a 50% win rate). 24% have 6-15 games (with 52% win rate). 22% have 16-50 games (with a 55.5% win rate) That leaves 11% at 51-125 and 8% at 125+ (I have no idea why it doesn't sum to 100). So again, players definitely do not have loads of experience on him. Compare that to let's say my main, Jinx: Average games: 82 10% have 1-5 games with a 47% win rate. 14.5% have 6-15 with a 51.5% win rate 30.5% have 16-50 with a 51.5% win rate Leaving 24% and 18.5% (again, not sure why it doesn't sum to 100) at 51-125 and 125+ games played. The comparison just isn't there. Skarner mains aren't expert Skarner players, not even close. They have a 50% win rate when brand new on him, and get over the 55% threshold with over 15 games played. Most balanced champions are LUCKY to hit 55% with 125+ games played on them. A more comparable example may be Vi. Whose mains play her a bit more than Skarner (18%, 24%, 33% in the same first 3 categories) and she sees woefully lower win rates than him until hitting 55% at 50+ games. She's at 50.6% in the 15-50 game category (5 full percent behind Skarner). To me, that's at least defendable. 50+ games is a decent chunk to get to that 55% win rate. But 15? Come on. Get real. Skarner is REALLY strong right now. It's not just his mains being committed to him - the stats completely disprove that.
I am a really dedicated to Skarner. He is probably strong right now, but I am having less fun playing him then I did pre-rework. I think he can feel weak even if he is kind of strong. Part of this was probably all of the move speed that got added to items this season. Skarner getting out speeded all the time is frustrating, he relies so much on closing the gap at crucial moments to stun or ult. His win rate going up may be a symptom of items like runic echo and some of the fast champions like udyr getting nerfed. I haven't played in awhile so my knowledge may be outdated.
corals (NA)
: Soft Skarner rework idea from a serious fan.
Hey, this rework is just an idea I thought would be interesting. I love Skarner, but I feel a little unsatisfied with the current version of him. The spires are alright, but it seems the fan consensus for Skarner is that the Spires aren't the best addition to his game play. The new passive would help him keep his faster jungling in a way that is relevant to team fights later. The poison works by damaging everything around the target for a couple seconds. If two enemy champions are damaging each other they are both slowed. Skarner's new theme is zone control, and keeping the enemy team from grouping properly. His new W keeps his shield and ramping movespeed mechanic, but also gives Skarner a place to drag people too if he is not with his team. It also sets up his E. His new E keeps the gameplay of the old fracture, with the stun getting him a brief burst of movespeed. This new one is more oriented around hitting a group of enemy champions and then quickly moving through them to get the stun. I left the ult relatively untouched, which may be a good thing or a bad thing. The reliability of his ult has been holding back his balance for a long time. In this kit it opens up more options. You can ult someone then drag them into a team mate to slow them and hit them both with the improved damage. Or you can ult them onto your out growth. His E might be better off as a brief channel, sort of like Sion's Q. This rework keeps him as the (mostly) juggernaut that he was before. He doesn't move around the jungle as quick, and loses the mana bonus he had with the spires. That is a hit to his current balance but in exchange he gains what his kit has always been asking for in my opinion. A reason for the ult to exist on it. He has a lair to drag people back to for murdering. And a mechanic that actually rewards re positioning an enemy with his new innate. I might circle back and edit both the rework section and this explanation section. Particularly if anybody else has good ideas.
Rioter Comments
Quepha (NA)
: Skarner shouldn't have been treated as a Juggernaut. His movespeed, cc, and AoE damage have consistently given him an identity that matches their definition of a tank.
His CC was originally different, he had a perma slow and his ult. The stun got added in later, then it was made easier to land.
Cloud273 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Crewx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zM2dGGN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-01T23:48:42.588+0000) > > His winrate is stable because only people who like Skarner, and have always liked Skarner, continue to play him. > > He's always been one of my favorite champions, since his original, perma-slow kit. And currently, he's one of my fallback, all-situation junglers. > >** The Juggernaut update didn't really help him out in a drastic way.** He remains the only Juggernaut that doesn't deal much upfront damage, and lacks good in-fight sustain. Skarner just sort of feels like a shitload of passives, stats, and effects thrown together to try and make a champion viable. And while we who like Skarner will play him because we love his thematics, lore, and general playstyle, we also acknowledge he's sort of a design trainwreck. > > I don't blame Riot for this. They had two subpar reworks prior to the Juggernaut one, each not doing much for us Skarner players. I think they aren't very inspired for Skarner, and never really were. His lack of new lore, his overloaded kit, and not to mention the fact that almost every single passive effect of his has 'Crystal' as a prefix (Surely they can come up with more original names), just leads me to believe there isn't a designer at Riot who's inspired by Skarner's thematics and character. And that's okay. You can't force inspiration. > > So, I wait for the day when a designer passionate about Skarner takes the reins. This is an outright lie. The extra MS he gets from the new items was a HUGE buff to Skarner. It makes him much harder to kite, and he's able to reach his target much more easily than before.
I disagree, the nerfed his slow and base move speed. Plus other champions are building items that grant movespeed/kite potential. I feel like I have a consistently harder time reaching targets compared to his state prerework season change. And as a hardcore skarner main, I am unsatisfied with his current state. He may be viable, but they kind of sucked some of the fun out of his kit.
: Thank god they are taking a look at Skarner. He is definitely stronger now with better scalings and more reliable stuns, but actually playing him feels awful even compared to pre-rework. I feel incredibly slow outside of the zones and no one with more that 10 braincells will fight you in it unless you burn your ult and literally drag them into it. Yes I can win games more often with him now but the gameplay experience is sketchy.
: The Skarner rework was not a failure in any way shape or form. The only problem was that he was **massively** overbuffed when they released him because the PBE consists ofโ€ฆ. yea I'm not going to go over that can of worms. Skarner is currently enjoying a nice 52% avg win rate in Plat. to Challenger. (Dem sources: https://champion.gg/champion/Skarner ). Despite having a rough start at first, he is MUCH better then before the Juggernaught update where he was complete garbo ever since they nerfed Cinderhulk the 1st time around. Yes, he has a somewhat gimmicky mini-game which irked many people, but you soon realize that you become the king of the Jg when you and your team have control of a spire. You instantly become Sanic and feel like you have a Trinity force with the atk. speed buff the spire gives you. This is not including the vision it gives you when you cap it which is a really nice playing Skarner. I could go on and on how the rework was what Skarner needed (and yes it did have some problems, but then again nothing is perfect). I cannot stay the same for Mordekaiser however and that was just more then just messing with how Mordekaiser was played. It was also poor insight with the following of the Marksmen reworks, and how they attempted to make a Melee caster ADC viable right before they literally **supercharged** the ADC's that Morde had to contend with. With this "VGU" group, I'm willing to bet money that Skarner will not be looked at again this season with the intention of seriously reworking him. With Morde I'm less certain because of the mess they made with him. I believe that its up to the community, and how much of an uproar they make. Best case scenario is they will look at him again during the mage rework and change him a bit.
I do think the rework was successful in many ways, and I don't think Skarner is weak really, but as a Skarner main he has lost a chunk of what i like about him. He isn't as fun as he could be. My favorite idea for him is to make his spires have a bit more game play. Instead of having them give him attack speed I think they should give on hit magic damage. Then have the damage increase up to a cap based on either how long he has been in his zone or how far he has gone on it. Sort of like Thresh's E. Then have this passive interact with his E some how. Maybe give him the maximum on hit magic damage for consuming the mark. Right now Innate and E are the places I would look at. At least according to this Skarner player. This won't exactly give him significantly more strategic depth or game play but it will increase the flavor and impact of the Spires for the Skarner player.
Elwynn (NA)
: I think 3. He never even needed one to begin with lol. He only had number issues.
I'd say he needed one. Back when he had a perma slow he was going of a stat check. There was no real counter play around his kit, he just spammed on you. Though I did love original skarner. In his next phase his Q gave attack speed, move speed, did lots of magic damage, and provided infinite sheen procs. His Q did too much work for the rest of his kit. So if he got fed and hit that mid game power spike he got out of control really easily. I have had love for all versions of Skarner. I love how open his itemization is. Though he kind of lost some of that in his current incarnation.
: How many failed reworks in a row has skarner got?
Probably 2.5. They took off the slow on Q, then later changed his passive so 1.5. Then they did the juggernaut update so 2.5. I wouldn't really classify them as straight up failures. Both accomplished some of the goals riot had for them, they just didn't succeed in fixing the core problems with his game play.
Reav3 (NA)
: I think we just learned with the juggernaut update that trying to do a small update to a champion that needs a larger update doesn't result in a successful update. This is why we passed on swain for the Mage update. Swain needs work but probably more then one ability with minor art changes can solve.
Is riot going to have a retrospective on Skarner or give the 20 or so Skarner mains an update on whether or not they are going to revisit him?
: {{champion:72}} "I'M VIIIIIIIIIIIIABLE!"
I actually do think he is viable. I also think he needs more work, though it does seem that Riot acknowledges that he needs work.
: > [{quoted}](name=corals,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=F0nROKEU,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-18T00:49:28.679+0000) > > What would oy do if you had his patch notes for a day? Honestly, I wouldn't know what I'd do with him. This is partially because I don't have a huge interest in Skarner. But at the same time, I see him so rarely he's almost as forgotten as Yorick. I would suggest possibly playing more into the fact he's a scorpion, rather than a beast of crystal.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=F0nROKEU,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-18T02:32:48.480+0000) > > Honestly, I wouldn't know what I'd do with him. This is partially because I don't have a huge interest in Skarner. But at the same time, I see him so rarely he's almost as forgotten as Yorick. > > I would suggest possibly playing more into the fact he's a scorpion, rather than a beast of crystal. Like having him rip people apart with his claws?
: > [{quoted}](name=corals,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=F0nROKEU,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-03-17T19:59:37.232+0000) > > As a hard core Skarner main I would be willing to see some changes to his ult for the sake of balance. In another thread I had a suggestion to make it similar to Sion's Q. > > First cast, Skarner channels for 1 second slowing enemy champions in a radius around him, after the channel completes he "grabs" the champion closest to the cursor and briefly stuns surrounding champions. If the channel is interrupted it gets put on a 10/9/8 second cool down. Not sure if that is the right direction for the ult, just an example of the kind of changes I would be ok with. I would not be surprised if that was part of the problem with Skarner's balance budget. However, I can't say for sure any which way.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=F0nROKEU,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-03-17T21:24:29.202+0000) > > I would not be surprised if that was part of the problem with Skarner's balance budget. However, I can't say for sure any which way. What would oy do if you had his patch notes for a day?
: Anytime Riot has reworked Skarner, they've had to nerf him to the ground. There's no happy medium for him, from what I can tell. I have no idea if they can ever put him in a state where he's viable but not OP (Kinda like Nocturne is now).
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=F0nROKEU,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-03-17T17:29:09.039+0000) > > Anytime Riot has reworked Skarner, they've had to nerf him to the ground. > > There's no happy medium for him, from what I can tell. I have no idea if they can ever put him in a state where he's viable but not OP (Kinda like Nocturne is now). As a hard core Skarner main I would be willing to see some changes to his ult for the sake of balance. In another thread I had a suggestion to make it similar to Sion's Q. First cast, Skarner channels for 1 second slowing enemy champions in a radius around him, after the channel completes he "grabs" the champion closest to the cursor and briefly stuns surrounding champions. If the channel is interrupted it gets put on a 10/9/8 second cool down. Not sure if that is the right direction for the ult, just an example of the kind of changes I would be ok with.
Snolen (NA)
: Can we do something about Skarner?
He is alright, before rework his damage with just IBG was better. Part of that was the constant AS he had, and the constant move speed increase which helped him get those auto's off. Which might have been part of his problem, his Q was very overloaded. I am lobbying for some sort of balance pass on him, he is not as satisfying as he once was. As in his builds aren't as fun, and it takes more work and to get him to a spot where he feels strong. A lot of other champions are faster, bring just as much utility or damage, and make better use of his items then he does. (Tank yi/tank fiora, udyr) So once he gets big he still has some satisfaction issues. I am not saying he is weak, and riot has been sending out nerfs so he might rise in win rate. He is just not as fun as he once was. He might thrive as a juggernaut if riot does another little pass on him. I am not sure though.
Tysmin (NA)
: because nobody wants to play dominion
I would say he can be good, but is awkward. He is not as satisfying as he used to be. Mainly because its a lot of work/gold to get him to feel strong, and once he is strong he doesn't feel as good as he used to. Champions having more move speed and carries having coherent itemization against him have a lot to do with this I think.
: > [{quoted}](name=corals,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LrRge6Yg,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-12T16:22:56.281+0000) > > Maybe because if the champion that is snowballing is say, Leblanc, zed, ekko, vayne, ahri, Kalista... The list goes on. The Juggernaut would have to have over 500 move speed to really function in that role even a little. A champion that probably does anti-snowball better is poppy. > > Just my 2 cents, could be wrong. I think the thing there is that you're not supposed to pick Garen into just anyone with snowball potential. He's more about shutting down carrying mages and ADCs than mobile classes like assassins. Against targets that aren't necessarily easy to catch, you can pick Garen if you're giving him a team that can help him close the gap (e.g. a Lulu would help a lot against that Kalista or Lucian). That's a good strategic identity if you ask me - pick him into a team that's likely to rely on one person doing most of the work and Garen will do well, as long as you support him adequately and the carry on the enemy team isn't insanely safe. I can't see anything toxic about that.
I would agree with this. Maybe the frustration that people are feeling with Juggernauts is that their usefulness as picks is deceptively limited. For example some of the situations that old Garen was useful for are no longer good match ups for him. If these champs only really show there strength when they are picked into or against specific team comps, then a lot of players may just pick them when they want to and then feel weak as they play them. Not necessarily because they are weak champions or have under-tuned kits, but because the in game situation is bad for them. As a side note I suspect juggernauts didn't wear well into season 6. Champs have been faster then the last season for awhile, and many non-juggernauts have been thriving with juggernaut itemization, pushing them out of usefulness. As movement speed items get nerfed, and champions like yi and fiora get pushed away from tank builds through scaling adjustments, maybe their usefulness will puck up again.
Rioter Comments
: Sion Buffs?
I play Sion, I love his Q. He seems alright. Maybe at proper balance for his class? My biggest problem is the occasional game where my team just kites away for no reason. Then I am stuck in the middle like, "guys I just hit q on three people where you at?"
: > [{quoted}](name=sickxapples,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LrRge6Yg,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2016-03-12T03:59:10.513+0000) > > "anti-snowball juggernaut" sounds horrendous for balance. Why, specifically?
Maybe because if the champion that is snowballing is say, Leblanc, zed, ekko, vayne, ahri, Kalista... The list goes on. The Juggernaut would have to have over 500 move speed to really function in that role even a little. A champion that probably does anti-snowball better is poppy. Just my 2 cents, could be wrong.
: Does anyone else think that the juggernaut update was for the most part a balance disaster?
Well the other champions that are jugernauts, illao and nasus are also borderline op. I think weird balance might just be a juggernaut thing. With Skarner needing more thematic love then balance love I think. Maybe the opposite is true for Morde? His thematic seems ok, his balance seems on the weak side.
: > [{quoted}](name=Arakadia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LrRge6Yg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-03-11T04:51:43.487+0000) > > Actually I agree! My poor skarner though.... I enjoy skarner as well <3 >w<
I love Skarner, not sure if Juggernaut is the best designation for him. It might be. Not sure if diving fighter is the best. Or if they even have a proper designation for him yet. I do think he has room to be more fun/satisfying. And I actually think it can be done within the framework of his existing kit. My favorite idea is to turn the AS bonus on Skarner's spires into a on hit magic bonus. This bonus would gradually increase from a base amount the longer Skarner is on his spires. If he hits someone the energy is expended and it would go down to a base amount. A change like that would add more game play into his spires at least.
corals (NA)
: As a Skarner main I would like to see the ult roughly remain a targeted grab/suppress. I would be ok if it lost some reliability for the sake of his balance. I think one of the best skills in the game is Sion's Q. In terms of balance and satisfaction it really sticks out as a fun ability. So maybe Skarner should burrow some of what makes that ability so well designed. I was thinking of making Skarner channel for one second. If he completes the channel he lashes out his Stinger towards the cursor suppressing the first champions caught and leading to his ult. all champions in the area where the first champion is hit are stunned. Similar to Sion he would have a dramatically reduced cool down if he is CC'd during the channel.
Impale: Skarner channels for up to 1 second, expanding an area of crystal energy around him. Enemies within this area have their movement speed reduced by up to 80% over the course of the channel. After 1 second Skarner lashes out suppressing the first champion struck dealing 90 percent AD (+etc) and impaling them with his stinger. Enemies around this champion are stunned instead and receive the same damage. Skarner can freely move the Suppressed champion for 1.5 seconds. When the suppress ends the champion receives the same damage. If the channel is interrupted the cooldown is reduced to 5 seconds. (90/60/30 CD) Skarner can cast Impale again to cancel the ability and put it on a reduced cooldown. This is just a spitball and would probably need some work. The important thing for me is that, like Sion's Q its not exactly a skill shot, but rather a something that will land if the enemies are in the area. Maybe make it so that Skarner has more abilites to chose who he can Suppress if he completes the channel? This is a compromise for the sake of his balance.
: Skarner Rework Ideas
As a Skarner main I would like to see the ult roughly remain a targeted grab/suppress. I would be ok if it lost some reliability for the sake of his balance. I think one of the best skills in the game is Sion's Q. In terms of balance and satisfaction it really sticks out as a fun ability. So maybe Skarner should burrow some of what makes that ability so well designed. I was thinking of making Skarner channel for one second. If he completes the channel he lashes out his Stinger towards the cursor suppressing the first champions caught and leading to his ult. all champions in the area where the first champion is hit are stunned. Similar to Sion he would have a dramatically reduced cool down if he is CC'd during the channel.
: Actually Skarner and Mordekaiser are back on the rework list (full VGU) because Riot realised they need more than a class update. Yeah they are nood really happy about Skarner not beeing a full Juggernaut. Just a tank with overall low mobility, he really has not enough sustained AOE damage and on-hit effects to be one. Now i have Skarner lvl 5 (actually the first jungler i ever played) and i enjoy him sadly just a bit. But he needs some more overall enjoyment (probably the reason why he and Aatrox are so unpopular, both feel like a lackluster sometimes). I can just say he is a good option and i play him jungle if we need a good tank in our team. Really hope his VGU (which is sadly a long time off) will bring this overall enjoyment as a juggernaut/tank.
Source for the rework list?
corals (NA)
: Thank you all for this discussion, I have played Skarner since release and love him and appreciate the new ideas for him. I agree the scorpion could use a little love. He is not exactly weak but a little unsatisfying at the moment. I have some ideas of my own and I will post some of them now. The rest I will bring when I have fleshed them out a bit. First his innate. I am ok with the spires, they certainly are unique and a functional passive. I see them affect a couple team fights every game. They remain sort of flat though. My idea to make them more interesting and thematic is to change one of that stats. Instead of the spires granting Attack speed, I kind of want to see them grant Skarner's autos magic damage based on level. With the magic damage increasing the longer Skarner is on the spires with out expending the energy. His base attack speed can be increased a little to compensate. Think of it like Thresh's autos. He gets the base damage for the on hit, but it increases up to a cap the longer he waits between attacks. The thematic tie in here being that skarner is storing energy from the spires. It would add some tension to seeing Skarner chase you down when he is on his spire, knowing that he is getting that charge. My next idea is a little less formed, its for Fracture. It may require changes to his W. I think it would be cool if the projectile slowed down still, but lingered a bit longer, sort of like Ekko's Q. Then have Skarner gain his spire benefits while he is moving towards them. So he hits a champion, slowing them and he himself gains movement moving towards them. The next part of this is that champions in contact with the fracture (of his crystal spire, get it?) would have their movement abilities disabled. This would cause this skill to lose the mark part of it, which makes me kind of sad, but hey, there might be room for an additional mechanic here. Or maybe just give it a lower cool down. Thoughts?
PS: Yeah I agree juggernaut might not be the best subclass for him. And also I agree that mana has been increasingly de-emphasized on him so I wouldn't mind if he was given a new resource. Also I wouldn't be broken up if the spires were axed, but they are here so may as well work with them.
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corals

Level 33 (NA)
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