: Nah. I don't buy that. The only evidence that we have is Jack and Reapered saying, "They weren't taking the game seriously." There was no poor play the split before. C9 did really well the split before. I imagine conditions in the house were that Sneaky and Jensen were streaming a lot and trolling around and Reapered didn't like it because... you know... take it seriously. If a coach makes a decision that tanks an entire team, that just simply is not a good decision. If the coach reverts the decision, that isn't a good decision either, because it proves that you have no clue what you are doing or what you are talking about. The only course of action that would have been acceptable is if Reapered would have come clean about his mistake and publicly apologized to the team and the fan base for his poor coaching. Jack needed to do the same and probably should have resigned. After all, he did film it and humiliate both players in the C9 video log... which was horrifying to watch. I think Jensen stays with C9 and doesn't pursue other offers if Jack resigns and Reapered apologizes, but no. They have too much pride in their own actions. They see themselves as owners and leaders of kids rather than owners and leaders of a team and clearly took advantage of them in this situation. I called it right after it happened that Jensen was going to leave after the split. I wasn't so sure about Sneaky because he has been loyal to C9 for years... but yeah. Those 2 entitled and rich buffoons destroyed C9 and any expectation they could have in the foreseeable future.
Damn dude. I remember when you were a C9 superfan. The change honestly worked out for both teams in my mind. I think that it is completely fair to say that it was a matter of pride from Jensen as well. Discounting the fact that their performance DID improve after this move and that they went on to have their most successful worlds performance after this move by Reapered is not fair to the coaching staff and just looks at it from a completely objective view with the lens of "C9 just benched their top players. wtf?" One thing to note here is how it was because of this that C9 was able to have Zeyzal step up and turn into a real team leader AND top level support AND someone not taking up an import slot that allowed them to pick up Nisqy: a young player who can be developed well by staff which was shown in this split with C9 placing in 2nd comfortably. Sacrificing legacy players for the sake of developing young talent is NOT a cut and dry stupid decision. I can understand Jensen wanting to leave. But painting it as a ridiculous decision when in reality it creates a world where C9 could have their own high level EU mid laner WITHOUT the issue of someone feeling disrespected for being told that they need to take a backseat for a little bit is just not thinking clearly.
: You saying it was the coaching staff's fault that TSM lost.............................they have a Korean coach! Koreans are too smart and powerful compared us, Western mortals. Bjergsen is a god! Sure Bjergsen plays passively only because he has no time to fight against weaklings. Zven-Mithy 4 straight Eu Final Championships(That region that always gets further than NA). There is no real evidence other than WE cost TSM the Finals and now some other team has no choice but to represent NA at MSI! Last 7 years TSM was just playing with the competition they weren't really trying until now! They were bound for greatness and this was the year(not the last 7) but NOW they are gone because of us. RIP TSM
I can feel it. I am glad they are out as well =D. interested to see if there is actually a change in the style of bjergsen (and consequently the team since tbh the style of bjergsen often reflects the team) or if they will just try it again the same way and then even if they make it to worlds they will make the same mistakes
iCloud9 (NA)
: inconcievable... theres no way he is using it wrong {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
But that is where YOU are wrong. for you see, it is all so simple. He must know what logical means since he is using it in a way that SEEMS like he DOESNT know. But you are accusing that he isn't so OBVIOUSLY that means he doesn't. So I know that he DOES KNOW how to use it
: > [{quoted}](name=IncrediPhiLL,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=ApMekRAE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-08T16:10:13.436+0000) > > Anyone who argues Bjerg is better than Jensen needs a reality check. There is not a single stat that points to that. > > Jensen is better in lane, supported by stats. > Jensen is better out of lane, supported by stats. > Jensen is better on a national stage, supported by record and stats. > The head to head record is essentially the same, supported by record and stats. > TSM can have 3 imports and offer top talent the most money, but Bjerg still cant succeed. > You admit yourself that Jensen means more to his team, but this is also supported by stats. > > If Jensen played for TSM, they’d probably have a legitimate chance to win worlds. Bjerg simply cannot carry a team and his team cannot carry him. Jensen is an amazing player, but it's disingenuous to gloss over all of his flaws while trying to pitch him as the best mid playing in NA. Jensen has never won a split even after joining the team that had the most split wins of any organization at the time he joined. Jensen has choked at critical moments throughout his career. Jesnsen trades off being lane dominant by being a weaker roamer than many other mids in NA. From the voice comms I've heard jensen is no where near the vocal player that bjergson is. I'm not going to pretend tsm as a whole hasn't shit the bed internationally far too many times. I know the popular forum theory is to say that the only common player through out all of tsm's failures is bjergson so he's to blame. I disagree. TSM has pretty much documented what went wrong every year and for the most part it's the same problem with communication each year. Players like dyrus, santorin, biofrost, wildturtle... etc all went completely silent during world's matches. It was more of an organizational failure which I hope they've fixed with their new coaching staff. The tsm having the most money in NA fan theory really needs to die. Tsm was rich by esports standards when the other owners were just random people struggling to stay afloat. Tsm is one of the few organizations not backed by NBA teams, venture capitalists, or billionaire investors. Tsm would never win a bidding war with team liquid.
But you can't say all of that without calling into question bjergsen's style of shotcalling. he is not a naturally born leader, it was a role he was forced into by Regi since Regi himself was the shotcaller of the team. And if you look at the style ever since bjerg joined they have played a much more passive late game style (the one exception MAYBE being summer 2016 with doublelift adding his shotcalling in) and I feel like that is very important. The idea that Bjerg being more vocal makes him better is not entirely true since I think we can all say that he isn't exactly Hai. He isn't someone who knows what to do to get out of any situation and will choose to make the risky play. He would much rather choose the safer play which makes their team generally really good when ahead (in NA at least) but when they get behind or caught off guard they seem completely blindsided. If you watch a video from Thoorin you can see him mention the fact that most players that Regi hires and even coaches he hires are generally not the loud aggressive people who will make changes and tell the team to take risks. They will instead retreat into a shell if they start facing defeat which we almost saw completely in spring 2016 and which is what we see whenever TSM starts slumping. they always seem to slump when they try the same safe strategy over and over that is centered around the late game and just waiting to win a teamfight. I feel like they just need to get some people who are really aggressive and in your face about what the team needs to improve and have the others be receptive to it. TSM needs to develop an identity as a team other than capitalizing on the opponent's mistakes. I feel like that is their real problem. This new version of C9 I would say DOES have an identity and it revolves around Jensen generating pressure in his lane which takes pressure off of his side lanes to dominate. it allows the rest of them to play a more safe style since their mid laner is often destroying his lane which gives them security in that lane and (in the cases that Jensen plays a control mage) solid burst damage in the late game. I feel like that sense of identity is exactly what makes C9 succeed at every worlds (the one exception being 2015 arguably, but even then they surpassed expectations). They are more able to realize what they need to fix to make THEIR team better, not what makes EVERY team better which feels like is the approach for TSM often. So I would say that Jensen is the best in NA considering his role on the team and how consistently he does his job compared to Bjergsen who it feels doesn't really have a role on the team (and shotcaller does not count. a player needs more to what defines them as a player other than "shotcaller"). Hell even Hai has a more defined role on his team as an aggressive all-in player who initiates the action his team needs and when he does it well it is always an absolute stroke of genius. I think that is what makes Jensen (and in my extremely biased opinion Hai) better mid laners than bjergsen. you cant have a roleplayer at mid lane and expect to be successful internationally
: I was actually ambivalent on the franchising move, and particularly dislike teams basically having hard protection so an organization can basically let their team bomb horribly for four years and never lose their spot. Its awful for NA growth and evolution in LoL. There have been a couple teams who have risen into LCS from challenger series bit often struggle to rise higher. Meanwhile, Misfits showed with the right work Challenger to Worlds can be done within one year. You missed the point that Fox is a garbage organization but have deep pockets. Why they are kept when they are failing to keep viable Esports in their org is baffling while IMT who bought in the same year and has had LoL success AND is successfully expanding is shut out. I still support the IMT org, but frankly don't care much about the games they have players for now. And fuck the NA LCS. My loyalty has swung to LCK for good.
You do realize how successful Echo Fox is in other esports right? in almost every fighting game that is a popular esport at the moment (besides guilty gear and I believe KOF). Meanwhile they have legends like JDCR in tekken, Jwong in street fighter and marvel, Sonicfox in injustice and other netherrealm games (mk etc.), Tokido in street fighter and finally Mew2king in Melee. All top level players in the world, many being in the top 5 at least of their games. So saying that they are a garbage org is false. their philosophy in terms of drafting for their lol team has been questionable yes. But you cannot say they are a garbage org that is failing to keep viable esports. This is a problem with some people where they don't actually look at any esport except for their own and immediately assume that their's is the only real esport.
: ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERG
༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ C9 TAKE MY ENERGY ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ
DarkRooster (EUNE)
: Are you a fanboy ? You are irrational, don't answer any my points but go off topic about completely other region. I been following only NA region with occasional games in LCK region, so i know what i am talking about. TSM gets hyped up endlessly by casters, this is now their best roster, they have so much worlds experience. C9 gets hyped up by fans. And did they ever advanced further than expected or most of the time even less ? And about their attitude i wrote it was when C9 and TSM was up against Samsung Galaxy each, that year, after was many interviews with them and they said plenty times they never even expected anything else than lose, which is quite a wrong attitude 2 of NA teams that goes to worlds almost every year. Last year TSM had to win single win able game to advance out of group stages but they didn't deliver, as always. As i said i am TSM fan, meaning that there is no one else but their own fans they can disappoint the most. EU is not even worth talking about this year, so idk why would you mention them.
Don't worry about him. I feel like I have seen him around before and he does this a lot. I am not 100% sure it is the same guy but I think it is and if it is just ignore him. He will just keep it going and then be like "why are you so invested in this. so salty lol". I get why you think that NA will choke but C9 has often been the team to not choke in groups. Last year they made it and in 2015 they were not expected to win any games at all so to perform as well as they did was great. I understand the viewpoint but never sleep on C9 (but yeah TSM gonna choke lol. Happens every time)
Miror B (NA)
: I find it hard to believe that this bug didn't occur AT ALL prior to this game. I find it hard to believe that someone like Huhi (a guy who is literally only known for playing this character) didn't know of the bug potentially occurring. The fact that CLG is probably going to win yet another series because of an ASOL bug somewhat infuriates me, and leaves kinda a different taste on the character where teams will either be forced to ban it or risk having clg abuse a bug to turn the series around.
meanwhile when FLY literally don't have a timer which is a much more uncommon bug "uhhhh here is the timer just play through no big deal right?"
: asol bug clg vs fly quest.
My bigger issue here is how CLG is given a chronobreak and a lot of time/options of what to do. meanwhile when FLY's players have a bug and they just tell them what they need to know and say "deal with it". I get it isnt the same as causing a death but it just feels cheap when they gave the chrono to CLG but pretty much nothing to Flyquest
: Final NA team going to World
Hai in the gauntlet................................. is there anything else I need to say. I guess another small thing is that in the last week they looked like they finally knew how to play a bit on the defensive and with shielding supports being an option now Lemonation now has some picks that can really work for him (instead of rakan/thresh/bard being all the rave). A few other things going for them is Balls having a solid split, Wildturtle still being Wildturtle and just the amount of experience and anti-tilt which is important in such a high pressure situation. Both C9 and CLG have some rookie or player who is only in their first full season (Omargod for CLG, Contractz for C9) and for C9 they have proven to have problems in clutch situations this year ( Finals of spring, Playoffs in summer) so I don't know if I have full confidence in their ability to pull off a Bo5 if they end up down 0-2 or maybe even 0-1. So while I do consider it unlikely I don't think people should write off Flyquest just yet.
: > [{quoted}](name=jwebb0113,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=OBaiFcZB,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-08-28T03:30:27.602+0000) > > so u think there is nothing better to do with your time then to harass me on the boards over my opinion ? You sure seem to be getting a bee in your bonnet over something that "doesn't matter." Guess what I do if the subject matter of a thread doesn't matter. I don't bother with it. And I certainly don't come back to it 7 times after I troll and get my knickers in a knot when someone asks why I posted if it doesn't matter.
dude just calm the heck down and leave the guy alone. is he posting something that doesn't make sense in this context? yes. but why harass him endlessly. I get that he made a dumb post and I'm there with you but there is no point in harassing him for it. just state you don't like his opinion and be done. and if he messages back after that it is on HIM. not you endlessly berating him ok? so chill the heck out and stop attacking people for their beliefs. it is ok to say you don't agree, but don't keep it going just to keep it going and harass him on how it is still going
Ospraey (NA)
: Future of SKT Huni, discussion
When people say Flyquest is a mess and then when you realize they could make it to worlds still https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.klGB_zhB3UmoqNIgRrLJ2gEsCo&w=289&h=162&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&dpr=1.25&pid=1.7
: yea, not banning maokai is treeting Summday with a good lane
https://media.giphy.com/media/5gw0VWGbgNm8w/giphy.gif but yeah its true
Galacius (NA)
: The Roaming Wardens
FIRST THE FISH AND SHENPAI? NOW ATTY TOO? this is amazing :D
: https://az616578.vo.msecnd.net/files/2016/01/04/6358747621857370411607767003_Damn-it-feels-good.gif
https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.eRg-vcEz7DgIi6DgvUXvLgEsDh&w=265&h=197&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&dpr=1.25&pid=1.7
Rioter Comments
: Kinda confused right now are they 1. EF's just training partner they come and go or 2. They have the ability to be apart of the LCS in 2018 ? Kinda wish they could have done this like a year ago or so honestly if it is #2. or even both. Went through the Challenger scene during spring so they could "strengthen" the LCS in the Summer before Worlds. I also say strengthen because they just seem like 5 guys that don't care about " META" picks but instead plays different team comps every game or so and that's something that NA needs to understand to actually win and be good. Can't just copy paste the meta, instead teams will have to find other picks and stay on their toes instead of just the same champions, the same game over and over.
I prefer this approach as well since I personally just hate having all the top teams play the exact same style which is why I am a huge FlyQuest fan since they did exactly that and make it super fun to watch. And I feel like them getting into LCS would be great just for personality sake since they are all such amazingly entertaining people which would make it so funny to tune in to mic check :D
Rioter Comments
: NA LCS Summer Split: Players to Watch
you cant overextend if your whole team overextends. {{sticker:slayer-pantheon-thumbs}}
Zeddsuoo (EUNE)
: Champion diversity for mid and jg in MSI is a joke
KoKoboto (NA)
: "Think you can beat me in a rap battle? Shoryuken! Hahaha..."
"you have proven that you are the best, you have hadoukened a giant hole in my chest"
: So how do you decide which team goes to MSI. If the team that won 1st place in both the regular split and playoffs is not the correct choice. Do we draw paper out of a hat to choose. It is simple if a different team wants to go to MSI or worlds they have to actually win NA. If TSM has been top 2 in NA for years and you thing they are shit, you are saying that the region itself is shit tier. If my previous statement is true that it does not meter who we send. Lastly close only matters in horseshoe and hand grenades, and in the end TSM won NA and the reward for winning is to go to MSI. Sending the number 2-10 team does not make any sense and should c9 had won I would have supported c9. MSI is about removing petty intraleague rivalry and supporting your team, which is TSM becuase they won the split. Let them try to redeam themselfs. PS c9 did not die for this, TSM killed c9 for this. That is why they went becuase they won.
I am not saying that TSM didn't deserve to go. I am just saying why I would've preferred C9 to go to this. I am sorry for the way I put this and I will still support TSM in this tournament. But I am tired of being let down by them ya know?
Borkahn (NA)
: I'm sorry that your team can't find ways into worlds consecutively or be in the finals of NA every single year. However, I will applaud your dedication to a team that isn't constantly in the finals for NA every year.
Has C9 ever missed worlds? no they haven't.
: So basically C9 died for this... (read description)
one comment I will leave is that C9 made it to quarters in S3, not Semis
: Other than season 3, c9 has not looked better than TSM at worlds. Season 4 they both made quarter finals. Season 5 they both failed and we got the C10 meme for them losing 4 in a row. Season 6 they had the easiest group to get 2nd in and then got dumsptered by Samsun. C9 also lost to TSM so thinking they would have done better is not realistic. Secondly gigamite marines, might just be a good team. Let's look at what bot c9 and TSM had as there major weakness, a shit tier early game. Now the marines have an amazing early game; this makes it likely that the marines playstyle counters TSM how out macro thier enemy. You cannot outmacro if hurt in the early game. Wild cards had the same number of teams enter group stage, while having one less team. The only region you can assume will do well is Korea, all others is depending on meta and current form. Could TSM be bad, yes. Could. C9 have done better? Yes. But to get glory you have to win your region, therefore if c9 cannot win the finals they do not deserve to go to MSI. 9 NA did not go to MSI, and that is becuase TSM proved they were better than all of them getting 1st throughout the split, and in payoffs. In short stop whining your team did not make it, mine did make it either.
Lets take a few looks at this all. First off in season 4 C9 was in a much tougher group. TSM had a group where they were going against a crazy inconsistent team in SHR, an SK gaming that was MISSING THEIR STAR JUNGLER FOR MOST OF THE TOURNAMENT (and when he came back they beat TSM), and a Taipei Assassins team that wasn't looking extremely insane even during their regular season. And I will not go and say that C9 had a much harder group but in reality they kinda did. They had one of the most successful EU superteams with insane mechanical talent at almost every role, A NJWS team that beat SKT (albeit while they were slumping), and albeit a pretty meh Brazilian team who DID manage to take down alliance which was great for C9. And remember that TSM also got 2nd in their group only to get smashed by Samsung. And in the game that they did win it was SSW being the most cocky I think any team has ever been and trying for lvl 1 fight against thresh with kassadin and trist. Meanwhile in G1 of C9 vs SSB C9 looked dominant and took it to them. and I will say that SSB did play a comp that didn't entirely suit their playstyle, but it didn't seem cocky since they didn't try for some random cheese stuff. Then if we flash forward to 2015 we see C9 pulling out a 3-0 week 1 and gave hope to everyone when their roster seemed on paper way too weak to contend with anyone in their region. They had the greatest western team ever in FNC, an up and down IG that could be good or bad depending on Rookie, and an AHQ that was looking solid internationally often. Meanwhile TSM struggled in a group with the largest slumper of all time (LGD), a Korean team that admittedly was pretty good (KT) and OG, who people didn't expect to do as well as they did. Is TSM not making it out horrible? no. But is going out 1-5, the same record as most Wildcard teams most years, horrible? yes. And while neither made it out C9 at least made a statement early on while TSM just looked like a team that couldn't compete. And then we flash forward to 2016, Where TSM looks like the western hope with a stacked roster including Bjergsen and Doublelift on the same team. And they end up with a group with the admittedly strong looking SSG, an inconsistent RNG that looked like a team TSM could easily take, and Splyce who by the end of the gauntlet looked extremely exploitable. And what happens? they lose both games to RNG, one being a complete fiasco including a TRIPLE KILL FOR UZI early on in the game. It was TSMs group stage to lose and you know what happened? they did. meanwhile I find it hard to believe that C9 had an "easy group" on paper at least. FW was the top Taiwanese team that had managed to take down SKT multiple times (and did again even at this tournament in one game), SKT themselves, and admittedly a weak-looking I may. So they were against the #1 LMS team, SKT themselves, and a wildcard Chinese team. I will say they didn't look clean often but they still made it out. I want to believe in TSM but when was the last time they actually did WELL at an international event? (and IEM Katowice doesn't count since they ended up playing WE who beat ROX by catching them completely off guard). I think that while TSM proved they can win in NA, they have the same G2 issue where they never seem to perform internationally but still hog the #1 seed for NA every time which is just embarrassing. It just sucks to see it happen every time when I feel like even FlyQuest would represent NA better due to the fact that they can actually take games off of something other than just "win lane win game" and playing same otherwise until you say "we can win teamfights cause we are better mechanically" cause guess what? YOU CANT DO THAT AGAINST SKT,FW, WE, OR EVEN G2 MAYBE! IT DOESN'T MAKE FOR A GOOD REPRESENTATION OF THE REGION! I will end on that and say that I think it has a lot to do with TSM infrastructure
: How far will TSM go at MSI/ MSI power rankings
My one issue with all the power rankings people are making is that I feel like everyone is forgetting about WE. They 3-0ed their opponents in the finals and while their style is slow, its so dang good if it gets rolling. I feel like the styles of G2 and TSM are a little suspicious when put on an international level. I could be entirely wrong but I definitely put WE over G2 since they just feel like a better version of the style G2 has been trying to do. I just in general don't think G2s playstyle will hold up internationally since outside of Roccat,FNC, and Unicorns in SOME games (cause yes in some games they go agro but they were much more passive this year, obeying the meta to an extent) there weren't any aggressive teams to punish them. Now they have a couple aggressive teams (FW, GAM if they make it through) that are all world class which makes it super tough. and then the other teams are just better versions of G2. G2 just doesn't feel like a team that can go aggressive now since whenever they try to it is all reliant on pure mechanical outplays (as shown in the UOL series). My personal rankings are below and entirely biased so nobody take them seriously. 1. SKT 2. FW 3.WE 4.TSM 5.GAM (cause why the heck not) 6.G2 (gotta believe in the meme)
Rioter Comments
: I don't know what else Aphromoo can really do honestly, he's taken 2 rookies and made them into B+ players if not A+ depends how you look at it, he's become a shotcaller that everyone respects now more than his earlier 6 Splits in the past. - Darshan and Xmithie- These guys are either the sword that helps defeat CLG's opponents or they're the sword that causes CLG to lose games. XMithie had a great 2016 Spring split but went down just a bit in the Summer where his earlier 2013-2015 Splits were meh, and his current 2017 split was again just ok but he was caught out multiple times. Darshan has 1 way of playing and that's split pushing, his TP plays to help CLG was great in 2016 but teams figured out how to counter that with their own ( tank split pushing) and CLG was pretty much fighting a 4v5 each game. Huhi - I'm not saying replace him mainly because he did improve greatly since his rookie split but I would like CLG to find another MID. People on these boards have mentioned Selfie who's a good player, very aggressive and that's what CLG needs to go to the next level. I'v watched Selfie; gosh back in 2013/14 and he's a mix of Jensen/Nukeduck in my opinion. He's good but at the same time isn't that great at "team" play and that's where CLG maximizes their strength at, so it's a toss-up but they need to do something. They've had the passive MID players for SO MANY YEARS LINK, POE, Huhi they need to get more aggressive in that lane or it's going to be the same 3RD best NA team again and again. I just don't believe in TSM at international events and who really does anymore? It's a shame because each year it seems to be TSM going to these events and they get blown out of the water by either SKT, FNC, UOL it's just annoying to see a team that has dominated NA either #1 or #2 as a team for a better part of 9 splits now and it's the same story internationally. Cloud 9 are good but can be excellent if they can recover their early split performance, but I don't think they will be as good as they once were early on.
It is so weird how with certain teams it feels like all their players for a certain role all end up being the same. I think examples being TSM junglers ending up being a bit passive, CLG mids being passive, and C9 bot lane generally being quite passive (although now it might be starting to buck that trend). It just seems interesting to notice those patterns. but yeah my faith in TSM internationally is just dead now and I have no idea what the reason is. In all seriousness it almost feels like it could have something to do with Bjerg funnily enough in that in international play he often is outperformed by his counterparts (worlds 2015 being the exception and there were many other problems with TSM in that run) and he seems to be the only thing staying consistent throughout this entire stretch of them doing meh at worlds. It could be something mental or I could just be crazy and it could be everything else collapsing around him. meanwhile yeah C9 is looking like the best hope if they can return to that form, which would fit the script of C9 being "NA's last hope" like most years.
: Np. MSI should be interesting considering I don't know the whole set-up yet, considering there's so many BO1 to be in the group then there's the group stage, followed up by the other group stage, the tournament etc it's crazy but also a little confusing at least for me. I'm a little disappointed that CLG lost mainly because of what they did at MSI last year but the saying goes " If you coulda, you woulda" - or something like that. I'm not a fan of FQ mainly because outside of Hai's shotcalling they just look mediocre but same can be said about CLG this split.
It is gonna be interesting to see what happens to CLG at the end of this split. as for FQ I think that it is an interesting story in that if their draft is good they are pretty good (aka give them some cc or way to start a fight) they win but if it is a no cc draft they get stomped. I think that TSM is looking solid but I don't see anything where it is like "that guy can be the playmaker at MSI except for maybe bjergsen. Sven has been looking ok but the worrying part there is that this seems to happen with a lot of TSM junglers where they never seem to be standout players which hurts them at international play with crazy junglers like peanut, karsa, and jankos as just a few examples. C9 feels like they CAN be good at international play if contractz steps up and impact starts playing like a beast again. but for right now they look like they lose early a little too hard to hang on against top teams. In all seriousness C9 or P1 seem like the two best candidates (unless either Moon steps up on FLY or TSM has sven turn into a monster again) since when they play well it seems hard to punish either team.
: > [{quoted}](name=dakm102,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=8hv2XzUb,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2017-04-06T15:56:39.666+0000) > > I think the large problem with this view is that some of the largest clown fiestas in League history have been from EU this split. there are way too many games decided by random stuff like backdoors or baron throws or one decisive team fight compared to NA. NA has had a ton of clownfiestas this season and in the past seasons But bias towards NA was still there from NA viewers. The thing is, right now given the level of import you see the HUGE difference in level of play between the top imports and the worst NA players in the league, and honestly is not funny even a little bit to see someone getting shitstomped by his direct opponent If you look across the EU board, you expect better teams to stomp lower teams, but you rarely are going to say: "OK, this is the match-up that is going to win the game for this team". And this makes games funnier because it gives you unexpected things to look at game by game
For sure it is more fun to watch sometimes but I mentioned that in my post, is it better play though? not really. and the number of clownfiestas this split have been far less than in EU. thanks for replying though :D
: > [{quoted}](name=FancyKiwi,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=8hv2XzUb,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-04-05T06:59:10.092+0000) > > Even the matches in EU where they pick the most meta team possible it's still more exciting to watch, IMO. That's because EU teams are overall just better (until proven otherwise) than NA despite having generally worse imports and less star power
I think the large problem with this view is that some of the largest clown fiestas in League history have been from EU this split. there are way too many games decided by random stuff like backdoors or baron throws or one decisive team fight compared to NA. Is it sometimes more exciting? yes. but is it objectively BETTER play? no. the reason they get into these scenarios is mechanical and team decision mistakes. you compare NV to OG and it is obvious who is going to win. I think that the middle of the pack teams in both regions are pretty even but I think when you look at the regions as a whole NA is looking stronger since even G2 doesn't look super consistent in most of their matches, and it is in a region with less bottom table power. G2 won two series off of last second nexus defenses and winning just off of death timers. that is not good play, that is barely scraping it together cause the enemy team overcommits cause they are getting hyphy thinking "omg we are going to beat G2 focus nexus go go go" and forget that G2 does dmg. That isn't good play and while I will not say NA teams are great, they are definitely better than the way Eu is looking right now. P1 beats H2k easily since if H2k does one of their really dumb fights P1 will capitalize on it greatly. C9 can beat G2 in the late game which has been shown to be G2's strongest point. TSM vs UOL is the one matchup between the top three I think is EU favored and that is cause TSM is horrible with dealing with aggression generally which is what makes them always so dominant in NA since we do have a lot of passive teams (aka NV, DIG, C9, P1 in certain cases, and CLG when they aren't on point). so in short no EU is not better than NA based on what their games are looking like and how their top teams play is looking going into playoffs
: 6 thoughts going into Quarterfinals
In all seriousness I am probably rooting for whoever wins between CLG and FlyQuest, them and maybe C9 cause they are C9 but FlyQuest and CLG are my two favorite teams to watch hands down. sucks that one of them has to go ;-;
Rioter Comments
: Anyone Tired of C9 Fans?
I think the reason why C9 is called "the hope of NA" is that they always show up the strongest at worlds out of any NA team. While you could debate TSM did better at 2016 C9 still made it to quarters while TSM didn't so I think that is the big thing there
arcinex (NA)
: C9 Smoothie Thresh Hook!
That was godlike 0-0
: NA Week 7 Thoughts and Predictions ( Welcome to join in if you want)
Tbh I will say that FlyQuest is far from god tier.... but saying they aren't good enough to beat a weakened P1 when they beat them last time is a tad bit biased. The FlyQuest fans who say they are god tier are stretching a bit but gosh dang are they fun to watch and they are still a good team. I think that they can pick it up and beat P1, probably 2-1 since some of hai's calls are crazy.
: > [{quoted}](name=dakm102,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=mjXdueoA,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-03-05T16:42:44.618+0000) > > Not sure how this is connected at all to the topic but either way we have no idea how EU and NA stack up against each other this year since they haven't competed at any international tournaments against each other except for iem gyeonggi where Team Liquid beat giants............ UOL beat TSM at IEM Oakland dude ;D ...it was not meant to be a NA vs EU post, by the way But for Morde to win you need a team to draft very bad and play very bad given that Morde is actually not broken - heck he is actually in a pretty bad state with his bugs -, especially given Altec-Lemon is a decent but not top tier bot lane duo If you lose as team vs that, and you have somehow being able to take series from other teams, it means that those teams low must be very low, as low or worse than the bottom EU teams that have not being good either (except Origen, again)
K thanks for explaining it. we can have different opinions but its nice that you explained it :D
: People just like to shit talk bottom EU teams (with good reasons), but this just show you how bad NA bottom teams are too, and how except for Origen the bottom EU teams would actually be probably better than them...and the fact they got wins means only that the other NA bottom tiers are just bad theirselves or have lows so low that basically they could lose vs any CS team (except Team Gates)
Not sure how this is connected at all to the topic but either way we have no idea how EU and NA stack up against each other this year since they haven't competed at any international tournaments against each other except for iem gyeonggi where Team Liquid beat giants............
: Not just that, but eventually we could see a pick that becomes really meta, like we've seen some pocket picks do in the past (AP Kog, Urgot were some in the past). We haven't seen it yet, but I hope that we see some of these interesting picks like this spread to other teams, or other teams pick up this habit (other than Looper and some other scattered players).
I now have a terrifying image of a morde and melee support meta 0-0
: I don't really like FlyQuest, and don't really want them to win most of the time, but I really love their champion diversity. In particular, I've seen Altec and Moon do this. I like how they keep everyone in LCS on their toes, and I like how, even if the pick is likely to fail (Shaco), they still go with it to see if it works out. That's how counters are born, that's how champion metas are made, and it's more fun to watch.
Exactly. While I am a FlyQuest fan it is mostly just because every game of theirs is so much fun to watch since you are always thinking to yourself "what will they come up with next?".
: Malicious, eat your heart out.
and then even blitzcrank. all praise our lord and savior flyquest for showing us any pick can work in lcs
: C9 vs FLYquest. Wow! Best series so far
Some hype stuff..... and we only have to wait 2 weeks for it to return
Miror B (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=dakm102,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=AwEIn8rV,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-02-11T22:50:43.602+0000) > > The second game counts as it's own victory........ and for the first game I feel like it was both teams playing well and playing to their strengths. on your comment above saying if they avoid relegation I find that a bit odd since they have shown they are definitely not gonna get relegated and that they have a good chance of taking it to C9 Yeah, the first game also kinda nullifies it. In a way, this series is a lot like the NV one in that although they got the 2-0, it was anything but clean and gives other teams (C9) something to look at and take advantage of. With the whole relegation thing, it's too early to say. If they avoid it, Hai is guaranteed MVP as who else will really make a "push" for it this split? Dardoch? Aphromoo? Link if TL subs him in as a toplaner and sheds RF Lourlo? Assuming the standings remain much of the same, I see Hai winning MVP in a landslide with Contractz taking rookie of the split (an honorable mention going to Captainflowers as he's made NA watchable after 2016 shot it in the ----) and reapered winning the coaching award.
fair enough. also #CaptainflowersforMVP
Miror B (NA)
: Most decisive victory? You watched the entire series right, because for the first game they were basically being curbstomped until P1 decided to pull a "jin air" and stall the game for 40mins.
The second game counts as it's own victory........ and for the first game I feel like it was both teams playing well and playing to their strengths. on your comment above saying if they avoid relegation I find that a bit odd since they have shown they are definitely not gonna get relegated and that they have a good chance of taking it to C9
: God Damnit Riot...
This is it in my mind http://media.giphy.com/media/Z4SwefLsx6zwk/giphy.gif
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: what game?
Miror B (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=dakm102,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=ceOQLLxl,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-28T02:26:08.623+0000) > > I just feel like since he has always done decently at worlds it would be a bit off to not call him not only one of the best in NA but also one of the best in the world since he won many games off of his godlike calls and they almost took Samsung blue to game five if it wasn't for the clutch base defense back in season 4 That being said, how many championships has he won? While people could consider Peyton Manning the greatest QB ever based on regular season stats, Brady has won far more championships thus making for a way stronger case into him. In the case of Hai, there are 3 things holding him back from being even remotely considered a "best in the world" player: injuries/challenger appearances have forced him to miss a lot of time from the actual LCS, he hasn't been considered at all "top-tier" in any of the roles he's played internationally, and his record at worlds includes 0 appearances in the finals. Considering there are literally hundreds of players who have made the finals of worlds and at least 30 better world-wide mids/jgs in each role, it's hard to take any serious consideration when putting him in that category.
know for a fact there are not hundreds of finalists from worlds with only 6 seasons so far. and the fact is that he isn't gonna be known as a mechanical god, that doesn't make you the best player in the world. what makes you good is being smart and he is one of the smartest players out there. his shotcalling is what makes him famous. He is the #1 shotcaller in the west and by proxy the best leader in the west which makes him in contention for going down in history. Bjergsen has always been more mechanically talented but he has never been a better leader than Hai
: Why did TSM replace Doublelift with TrashTurtle
Its largely because in the past turtle has been pretty solid and is a good teamfighter. It just is that the meta doesn't suit him and he has issues in lane sometimes.
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dakm102

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