Rioter Comments
: damnit, stop reminding me that Panth is basically just a guy with a stick.
not just a stick, but a plank of wood!
Moody P (NA)
: "boards is so dumb lol" *crowd cheers*
> [{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=GQxnzyim,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-14T18:49:28.448+0000) > > "boards is so dumb lol" > > *crowd cheers* *crap theyre on to me*
Rioter Comments
: but you forgot the most important thing.... pantheon is a real man... he wears a kilt!
it aint no kilt, its a war skirt >:D
Rioter Comments
: I see a ton of "git gud" comments and it's actually kinda sickening. That's not how discussion happens and seeing them upvoted doesn't help. I don't think Veigar's cage needs to slow instead of stun; but for the duration of both the stun and cage itself, one or the other needs reduced. This is primarily because the cage includes a knockdown effect that stops mobility skills when stunning the target. My suggestion would be to reduce the stun duration. It already stops mobility, it doesn't need to be leaving the enemy a sitting duck. The other alternative is to have any stuns caused by the cage dispelled when the cage is.
That's actually a nice change. I think the thing that seperates his stun from other stuns is, like how you mentioned, it stops people in their tracks. If you could cast mobility spells through it (like lee sin's w actually going all the way through, but still stunning him), then I think it would be more fair. However, if he cages you in, then there isn't much you can do except flash, as usually being caged is when the enemy team pounces on you
: You shouldn't walk into a stationary hitbox.
> [{quoted}](name=PopcornBunni,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=OIZR8aLx,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-02-12T04:33:33.145+0000) > > You shouldn't walk into a stationary hitbox. What if he walks up and presses cage around you? In a teamfight, that's death, or a free flash. If the argument is "well just nuke him when he walks up", whats to stop him from caging himself while his team peels?
: I would be more inclined to agree if you were saying make his circle a wall.
hell, even that. I'll take anything that isn't a better version of J4's ulti that dooms anyone whos caught inside it.
: You shouldn't walk into a stationary hitbox.
a control mage shouldn't be able to have an immensely strong zoning material, while being able to nuke the adc by pressing a point-click ultimate.
: She doesn't start nuking until mid-late. And that's if she had an ok early game. and by ok I mean she didn't die and at least managed to somewhat stay with the cs.
game's last until mid-late game, so if a vayne is passive, she nukes mid game. That's a problem. Furthermore, even if she feeds, all she needs is bork and guinsoos and she's equal, if not ahead, with everyone. That needs to be addressed, but needs to be addressed carefully. If they nerf items, it impacts others. If they nerf the wrong thing, thats another 2 weeks down the drain.
: Positioning still matters. and the protect the kog comp was not immediately removed. It lasted a long while. So the argument still stands.
it stayed, but after multiple nerfs. Kog was nerfed multiple times during the process, but none of them worked. They tried nerfing his overall damage, shifting his damage to late game, but nada. It stayed the same. So they removed it because it wasn't balanced. Similarly, Vayne's true damage should only translate to tanks, but is currently being translated to everyone on the enemy, nuking everyone with just 2-3 autos. Nerfs should be made to compensate. If not, then a rework.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=dontspinbutwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qQNEJyTo,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-11T08:30:02.238+0000) > > Now, I'm fine with being outplayed by a vayne. If she reads me well, and can weave through all my grabs and such, she deserves to kill me. im not fine with it, because her kit doesnt give me the same chances to outplay her at all. i honestly feel cheated whenever i play a fight as well as i possibly can, and vayne just wins by a mile because her kit doesnt have any direct weaknesses herself. there is no angle i could have taken to beat her, because her kit itself doesnt give you an opening to make plays on her.
Her kit is very mobile, and her kit makes her one of, if not, the best duelists in the game. However, hard cc locks her down while she gets melted, as she usually builds little to no resistances. However, if shes binded or taunted, she just becomes "reworked kog", where she becomes a death turret. The change i proposed simply removes that. Vayne has plenty of weaknesses, but her strengths overshadow the weaknesses. This change gives her a big weakness to be exploited, which makes her more tollerable.
: Did you play during the protect the kogmaw comp? It's no different.
You're right, except riot saw that the change they made on kog was so drastic that this meta existed, so they reverted him back to his old state, a massive damage cut that removed the meta. This is both a massive damage nerf in low elo vaynes, but remains relatively the same in high elo, which is fine. In high elo, people know vayne's potential, and are cautious. In low elo, people learn how to play vayne through trial and error. The main reason the kog argument doesn't work is because there wasn't much mechanics except positioning, and that mechanic was removed when teammates worked as meatshields so kog could 1v5. That's why it was removed, because kog was just a turret.
: The problem is this won't change a thing. She r/q and then q's every other auto attack. And even if you say, oh we that's late game. Well early game she won't have the attackspeed to really do more than three autos before she uses another q. This solves nothing tbh, it's just a sad excuse to make Vaynes w a boring ability. If it worked off of her q, then why would it be her w? Wouldn't it be a q passive? It makes no sense. I don't think this change really works. Sorry.
I'm suggesting this change so vayne players who have horrendous mechanics aren't rewarded, or it vayne players are hard cced, it actually impacts them. If a vayne is mechanically good, she remains the same, as it should be: high mechanics should deserve high risk/high reward. However, if she's horrible, then most of her damage is cut.
Rioter Comments
: reduce true damage by half if she is allowed to have rageblade/bork procs.
If vayne does her combo correctly, and is mechanically skilled, she deserves the damage she has. If she fumbles, she should be punished. Reducing the damage from rageblade and bork would mildly help, but overall, it doesn't punish vayne players who are mechanically horrendous.
: I think they should either make her silver bolts like kled's w or like varus w: where with varus w it gives u more % damage if you activate it. Or like master yis e where you get true damage but in sacrifice of your ad
I don't want her W to be a constant, but rather have it only active from time to time, to give options to punish.
: You wrote down what her job is. And then call for her to not have that specific job she was meant to have. It's not just building armor. You've got to have health. She has weaknesses all over. Allowing her ult to run dry opens her way up. She has a lower range than most adcs so she has to get close to fight. Her W resets if she autos a different target. Also the True damage does not proc unless the third hit applies. (2 if rageblade is fully stacked)
You are correct, vayne has weaknesses, yet they aren't easily exploited. Sure she can be bursted, but the resources to do so is usually hard to pull off. Lets say galio successfully pulls a flash taunt onto vayne. Galio shouldn't have to still worry about being melted, yet he is. I get many of her weaknesses, like how a stun essentially kills her, 3 hits are needed for true damage, lower than average auto range, etc. However, these weaknesses aren't too exploitable. If a team has vayne, you bet they know her capabilities, and are going to peel for her to the death. A stun may kill her, but in this damage creep meta, a _slow_ has the capacity to kill a tank. Sure you could build armor, but if you're builidng armor, you're most likely building HP as well, meaning that the armor is essentially negated, as you take more max hp damage in exchange for less independant auto damage. She has to get closer to fight, yes, but with her mobility, her ult Q buff, and teammates, it isn't too difficult for her to weave around combat with the movement speed from her passive, her Q, and her teammates as living meatshields. Vayne's Job is to be the "anti-tank", I get it. However, my job as a toplaner is to be the frontline meatshield who has a presence in a teamfight. This means my job is to make sure I can take a hit, and dish one out in return, or if I can't return the damage, hold the enemy down as _they_ do the damage. However, Vayne's "Anti-tank" playstyle is turning into an "anti-champion" playstyle, with the damage creep. I suppose back then, Vayne was more balanced. However, with new buffs, new items, and new damage creeps, If she auto's someone twice, they're half healthed, regardless of what they've built, and that's a problem. The change I propose won't really impact her damage, but rather open her up to a new weakness. If someone like Sneaky played with this nerf, his damage would barely go down. However, if someone randomly picks up first time vayne, they'll most likely perform horrendously. This nerf simply ensures that players who make plays get rewarded, while others who feed but make it to late game are punished.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=dontspinbutwin,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=EALsI7Wf,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-05T17:40:40.523+0000) > > a teamwide fear does sound a bit strong, but also realize this also exists within warwick. This change shouldn't impact teams that ward regularly, but punishes teams that lack ward score. the main difference is that even if old fiddles pulls off his entire combo to punish teams, fiddles will still die due to lack of pressure. the looming concern of fiddles might help with map pressure OH, you mean Warwick's Blood Scent! hmm......I believe Fiddle could have something similar if they really wanted to add it in. Imagine if you walked through the Rift & all of Fiddle's Crows started to gather on the Walls/Terrain (Similar to Swain's Ravens) as Fiddles approaches you. It's Subtle, but can be ominous if you notice them.
actually, i was refering to warwick's ult/e. When warwick has his E up and ults someone, he instantly loses his e, but fears anyone surrounding the ulted target. However, many player's don't use this because warwick loses his durability without his E. FIddlesticks needs a way to be a threat in a teamfight, rather than an annoyance as a fear-bot. I also really like the idea of crows, but seeing as fiddles is in a weak spot right now, I'm not too sure that the crow thing would be a good addition. It gives away fiddle's location, and that's something he doesn't want.
: I **Fear** that might be a bit too powerful. Rengar is only scary because if he get's fed, he can just waltz into your base,**Carve off a Souvenir** and just leave with no retaliation from your team. In the late game, Fiddle is terrifying depending on who he's going after (I'll jump the Carry/Support before I jump the Tank). Also Vision Control is important as it gives Fiddles more strategic opportunities to press the Comedy Button (Press R for **Run Away**). However, Fiddle is slated to have a VGU at somepoint (hopefully it's this year, in time for The Harrowing). I have no doubts that He'll become the most terrifying thing to hit the rift on that day.
a teamwide fear does sound a bit strong, but also realize this also exists within warwick. This change shouldn't impact teams that ward regularly, but punishes teams that lack ward score. the main difference is that even if old fiddles pulls off his entire combo to punish teams, fiddles will still die due to lack of pressure. the looming concern of fiddles might help with map pressure
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=dontspinbutwin,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=jGespRIE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-04T23:00:36.206+0000) > > ur right, shes classified as an assassin, mainly bc of the burst and mobility her w and r have. However, W is also the biggest complaint people have about leblanc. Similarly to how it was difficult to balance disarm and akali's shroud/heal, riot may have just wanted to remove it after a few failed attempts of fixing it. However, removing it also takes away her definition of an assassin and turns it to a zone mage, but it also isn't riots first time changing a character's role with a rework. > > Darius used to be this really weird burst fighter, until riot tweaked him and made him a juggernaut. Poppy used to be an assassin, until she was reworked as a disrupting tank. urgot used to be an adc, until he was reworked into a disrupter. It wouldn't be unordinary for riot to change a champion's class for balance issues. It would be their first time changing a fully functioning champion's kit into a different role with a rework. if you may notice, Swain is still a low range DPS/DoT mage, Irelia is still a fighter, Akali still an assassin, Nunu still a support tank/AP, etc. The only reworks with massive changes have been champions with highly disjointed kits (Sion's kit was AP burst/ADC and turned into Tank, Poppy was weird Assassin tank into Tank, Urgot was tanky ADC Poke bot Bruiser into Juggernaut). Changing a high mobility burst assassin into a controlly teamfighting mage with limited mobility and meh, very delayed burst is unlikely. Especially since Riot still keeps iconic abilities (Sion still has his shield burst and infinite health, Poppy still has her tankiness at low health and wall slam). LeBlanc's most iconic abilities are Distortion and Mimic and would be in any rework; proposing Neeko as a failed LeBlanc rework doesn't work since she has nothing remotely similar to either ability.
That's actually a really strong argument, and I appreciate the thought behind it. While it is true that some things are staples in reworks, that isn't always the case. poppy was heavily defined by her e, empowered q, and r, but 2 of those 3 things were changed. Yorick was defined as a ghoulish boi who spawned up to 4 ghosts in a duel, but that... changed (wait...). Even though some things are staples, it wouldn't be hard to imagine some things be taken out for the sake of redefinition. Removing her w first might help redefine leblanc, but removing it also doesn't make her feel like leblanc: so they made a kit meant for leblanc, that didn't go to leblanc, yet they made a character for this kit because it was a nice kit anyhow.
Kazekiba (NA)
: Neeko was a beta test for Sylas, being able to copy enemy champions while poorly adding a 4th lesbian character and just as poorly copypasting abilities ver batim from {{champion:3}} {{champion:7}} {{champion:143}} {{champion:20}} My guess is Riot still is convinced the backlash over Vaarus' lore change was homophobia and that fans were upset an existing champ was """revealed""" to be gay instead of the fact that the lore team had no idea who Varus was or what his lore was-- namely he HAD A WIFE + KIDS and that's why it was reacted so poorly to. If Diana and Vi are raging lesbians in lore changes no one cares - we all know they are already. Theyre also not married heterosexual parents with a dead family. I like Neeko as a champion but she's actually the worst job Riot's done in years. I wish they tried harder. I wish they weren't blatantly pandering.
I'm a bit split. Honestly, Neeko's lore is quite nice, but with SJW being rampant, I can see why they made Neeko gay, but I still don't agree with that decision. On the other hand, I really like fighting neeko, even a fed one. She can't 100-0 you quickly, allowing both players to skirmish quite fairly. If she transforms and such, and I get bamboozled, then she deserves to kill me. TLDR: Lore: unnecessarily gay. Game: pretty fair (IMO)
: This is a massive tinfoil conspiracy that only works if you ignore that LeBlanc's W and R are the most iconic parts of her kit and thus would be part of any rework, and that LeBlanc is a Assassin and not a teamfight mage.
ur right, shes classified as an assassin, mainly bc of the burst and mobility her w and r have. However, W is also the biggest complaint people have about leblanc. Similarly to how it was difficult to balance disarm and akali's shroud/heal, riot may have just wanted to remove it after a few failed attempts of fixing it. However, removing it also takes away her definition of an assassin and turns it to a zone mage, but it also isn't riots first time changing a character's role with a rework. Darius used to be this really weird burst fighter, until riot tweaked him and made him a juggernaut. Poppy used to be an assassin, until she was reworked as a disrupting tank. urgot used to be an adc, until he was reworked into a disrupter. It wouldn't be unordinary for riot to change a champion's class for balance issues.
Rioter Comments
: No doubt that can make Sylas countereable on lane, but surely other R's of the enemy team will serve him well, and he'll probably be used in the jungle, so he'll surely be useful.
Yeah, this might be another "Vi", in the sense that he was designed for toplane, but is far well designed for jungle. His heal and poke seem mediocre, combining that with his ult and dash, he seems like an ap hybrid of camille and reksai
Rioter Comments
: Unfortunately no. However, the Judges should explain why the winners did win!
will the results be in within about 2 days, or less?
: The Grand Archives of Piltover [CONTEST]
do we get critiques on our individual works? I know that sounds insanely large, but I would love to hear what I could improve on.
: THE SECRET WAY TO AVOID BEING BANNED RIOT DOESNT WANT YOU TO KNOW ABOUT USING THIS ONE WIERD TRICK!
What if my computer is crap and sometimes won't disconnect to the game?
Wuks (NA)
: Report Your Nexus Blitz Bugs Here!
Bug: If theres a draw in a game mode (extremely rare, but I had a 1v1 where both champs died at the same exact time), the winner is randomized, and the winning team then gets 2 rewards. Quality of life: Since the skuttle crab racing skuttle crabs are considered champions, pyke and urgot can ult them, putting high damage executes on cooldown for a skuttlecrab.
: The Grand Archives of Piltover [CONTEST]
This whole contest makes me happy. If I win, I get Rp and a notebook. If I lose, I can read a story that was better than mine, like damn. We need more stuff like this.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=dontspinbutwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9jk1YpnJ,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-08T07:26:35.760+0000) > > A. For one, like i mentioned, morde gets completely crapped in laning phase (&quot;He loses passively, but wins duels&quot;). Its extremely similar to Darius vs nasus. Darius harshly wins that lane, but give nasus a few stacks and armor, and nasus can take on Darius. This usually occurs 35 mins into the game, after laning phase. Morde loses lane to irelia, bc Irelia has harsher zone. However, give them both items, and Morde holds his own against irelia, and can even push her back. Most Morde mains complain against irelia matchups because laning phase sucks, and seeing how most games are short, thats the majority of the game for them. It isn&#x27;t fun, so they complain.... just like how laners who fight pantheon complain. Hold on there... Morde's highest winrate is before the 25 minute mark. Do you even know how the champ works? He wins lane phase really hard against most champions, and has a relatively weak late game unless his team secures dragons... I can tell you as a fact I won 100% of lane phases until season 8 when they fucked him hard with runes and masteries. The reason why Morde mains complain about playing against irelia is because he wins at no points in the game against her unless she is bad. Again, he is designed to win lane phase, and close out the game pre 30 minutes. > B. I wouldn&#x27;t really count his ... Matchup dependency doesn't mean that he doesn't have any disengage. You know who actually has less disengage? Morde. He needs a fucking teammate to disengage. Having to burst through Thams big ass Shield also makes for a pretty convincing argument if you do waddle just far enough away. > C. In a sheer 1v1, I do agree that zed loses against morde. It&#x27;s why zed never does try for that 1v1, he instead pokes down morde from a distance to ensure morde cant get shield procs with his skills, then goes in for the kill. Urgot has scaling damage/burst, so in all stages of the game, urgot can win against morde. I&#x27;ll assume you mean zed&#x27;s range is short by his auto range, but zed never autos someone to death. He combos them, or ult combos them, then uses his passive proc to chunk em hard. Zed=/=yi. Lol if you lose to urgod as morde you are doing it wrong. Urgot with his self slow may as well be a melee champion. Morde does outshield urgots damage unless fed. <- fed is not an argument for balance sooo I'll leave it at that. As for zed, dodge his Q... and then he is a short range champ... even when he tries to combo you you get to respond. If you pop your W as you see him press R, you can pop it for damage and heal as soon as he lands 99% of the time. Then you get your R, E if you can aim, and 1 Q if you press on him. Even if you are half health since he does damage to your shield and not you his R hits for little damage most games. He is for all intensive purposes short range. > D.You are correct, I think ornn&#x27;s movement speed is at a fine spot. However, like i stated, he isn&#x27;t mobile. The thing about that is sure he might not be highly mobile, but some is still well some. > E. The nasus thing. You dismissed the entire nasus argument because I used the word tank, rather than bruiser. I believe that&#x27;s straw man fallacy. Even if you disagree with the nasus being a tank thing, that takes 0 away from the argument. You can't use an infinite scaling damage champion as an example of a balanced champion. IF he is left alone to stack Q ofc he is going to win trades. If you keep beating the shit out of him all game he isn't going to get anywhere. He shouldn't be used for balance discussions unless the discussion is specifically about him. The same should be said for veigar. The other day I hit 2k ap on viegar and could Q R their tank to dead. Should we be talking about the balance there? No! The enemy team let me stack too many Q's and got punished for it. I could have built off tank and still one shot any of their squishies. Also, when you use the term bruiser it means that they have damage, often very high damage. Mostly because riot refuses to balance tank to damage so they have mostly just transitioned everything into burst damage. > G. Actually, many don&#x27;t like irelia because, like i&#x27;ve said, they don&#x27;t like thinking more or differently when fighting her. It should also be noted that 70+% of players are gold and below, and it&#x27;s usually those players who complain. Skill level and learning curves do exist, and with that, frustration. It&#x27;s why champs like Yi can faceroll in lower elos (causing said players to complain), yet be considered a trollpick in higher elo. I'd like to put out there that I'm complaining about Ireila from diamond. I am a part of that 1% of the playerbase. It isn't about thinking against her. I used to have that argument against Yi. Morde historically loses to yi. Two seasons ago I figured out that if morde purchased Zhonyas and Stereks gauge (sure sounds like a shit build) and the morde would press Zhonyas on Yis alpha-strike which in turn wasted part of Yi's ulti because not only did he lose Q time to get to you, then he would reset to his starting dash location and be forced to walk to you. Then stereks gauge would eat a majority of upfront burst damage that yi could do while his ulti was still going. His ulti and most time's E, because a majority of yi's press E when their Q is cast would wear off, and you could just straight up fight him to death. You could do that because you negated most of his true damage and ate the burst his ulti gave. You know how much thought that took to actually pull off? You know how good I got at doing it I was actually wining 9/10 times on morde vs yi, a matchup that morde normally lost because yi kills and lifesteals too fast and hard. Season 8 rolled around, and now damage is to the point where I was trying that and wining 0/10 times. Fighting irelia feels that way. She Q dashes to you, gets to stun you. Deals you another Q worth of damage, and then just autos you to death while getting to ignore a big burst of damage. To top that off if she hits her R and you could have left now you just stand there while not being able to fight her unless your champion is better than hers (or she is bad) and can just stand there to 1v1 her. If her movement speed was 325 I really wouldn't have any reason to complain about her. IF she failed her burst she couldn't just walk away like she does now. I'd make a very similar argument for Camille, yasuo, lee sin, akali. > I. You make a fair point with morde. However, like mentioned earlier, she has to sacrifice mobility and cc/disengage if she wants to burst him down. If she&#x27;s successful, she gets rewarded. If she fails, morde can lock her down and severely punish her. How does morde lock her down when she can just walk away with her higher movement speed? IF she builds black cleaver/trinity force or any movement speed damage item even through rylis she can just walk away. > Last but not least... > > J. _This isn&#x27;t an irelia hate thread._ This is a thread discussing the frustration of fighting certain champs, and irelia just happened to pop out because she&#x27;s frustrating. The entire argument that was made, and my retaliations, contribute literally nothing. I simply wanted to tell peeps to learn how to fight other champs, but you took it and molded it into an irelia hate club. Instead of saying &quot;Haha, I&#x27;m right&quot; and bandwagon-ing (fallacy btw), contribute to the conversation, instead of digressing harshly. You were the one that specifically mentioned Irelia in your inital argument. I just went ahead and listed why shes hated. The only reason a lot of these champions get complained about is because they are actually unfair to play against. Alot of the highest complained about champions are ones that have high damage attached to mobility. There is no way to "Simply learn" how to play against getting burst 100-0 by someone thats faster and has more damage than you.
This is my last comment, before I give up trying to properly communicate. I used morde as an analogy, and i mentioned that twice. You took it to an extreme and used morde as a basis for 1v1s, which wasn't the argument of the fallacy of the fallacy at all. You sidetracked an argument with a fallacy, ignored the correction I gave, then took that fallacy as the "main point" to continue your side of the argument. You stated zed was an easy matchup because his q was a small skillshot. Irelia's e is a thinner stun than zed's, but unlike zed, theres a delay, and 2 casttimes, while having a shorter castrange. Once again, your own argument contradicts yourself. The disengage argument. He is tanky yes. However, most champions don't just auto and then let him go. They use cc to lock them down, or pull them back. Like if Tahm is top, urgot toplane might e tahm, then slow him with q, and since that locks on, w grants urgot the ability to walk over minions, leaving that fight to urgot's advantage, not to mention the jungler that may gank. sheer tankiness isn't disengage. That's like saying illaoi has great disengage due to the fact she can 2v1. That isn't disengage, that's turnaround ability, Don't mix up the 2. The nasus argument was created to demonstrate that even an infinitely scaling champion has weaknesses. To trade the idea of infinite scaling, nasus loses many lanes, gets heavy zoned, heavy kited, so on so forth. He loses alot to have alot. Same with irelia. I won't repeat myself as on why she loses alot to have alot, go back to my former post to see what I said. "Fighting irelia feels that way. She Q dashes to you, gets to stun you. Deals you another Q worth of damage, and then just autos you to death while getting to ignore a big burst of damage." ....That...That isn't how irelia works at all. The hell? Her dash's cooldown doesn't get reset when she lands e. her e sets up a charge that allows irelia to dash to that champion and consume the mark rather than have her q on cooldown. Her damage reduction roots her, does minimal damage in compensation, and like i mention for I think the 4th time now, she only uses it if she's caught out. It isn't an alistar ulti, it's a last ditch effort. Morde locks down irelia after she fails her combo because she has 0 forms of disengage. With a protobelt/gunblade with rylais, morde can stick onto irelia as she either tries to keep autoing or awkwardly walk away. I'm sure I made this clear multiple times, but I'll say it again. Irelia trades burst for mobility and disengage, many players complain about irelia because they die, and don't get to see how irelia survives in a teamfight after she bursts them down, similarly to how rengar does. Lastly, the last point I want to make. I mentioned Irelia because the person making this post in the first place use irelia as an example. I mentioned irelia because I figured that if i could tell everyone how to counterplay irelia, then they would realise that they could counterplay other frustrating champs, such as Darius, kaisa, yasuo, so on so forth. Taking that and expanding this to an irelia hate thread was not my intention at all, whatsoever. Furthermore, it appears, like many things in my argument, you completely ignored my very last statement saying to actually contribute to the argument, rather than babble on for the sake of being right. To make all my arguments here, I used internet statistics, actual gameplay experience, and have fought/played as irelia. I came here knowing why people are frustrated, and spoke in hopes we as a community adapt to different playstyles. What's worse is, if you truly are diamond, you should already know about this. This is the equivalent of faker complaining how late game nasus is so strong because he can 1 shot you with his Q. This is the equivilent of the time where LCS players were shown footage of kled gameplay, and the LCS players announced kled as a broken busted champion. Stop bandwagoning for the sake to be right. I'm happy to be wrong in my statements, but prove to me how I'm wrong, just as I have to you. You can respond if you want, but I'm done repeating the same things over and over. I want intelligent conversation, rather than incomprehensible screaming.
Rioter Comments
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=dontspinbutwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9jk1YpnJ,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-07T18:25:47.126+0000) > > but in a raw 1v1 duel, morde has the upper hand. Have you played this matchup? Irelia wins 10/10 times because she has a better kit. She stuns double dashes, and then just r/auto morde intill he dies or gets his 3rd q, which she just presses a button and negates all of his work getting to 3rd q... She wins that trade, prolonged or not. > ...Dude. That&#x27;s common knowledge. Thats like saying kench is an undefeatable duelist because he has 200 AA range and has 335 movement speed, like irelia, thus allowing him to kite with his harsh slows and autos. However, he has 0 way to disengage, So you've literally never seen a tham kite with his consume/toung lash? And then disengage after a toung lash slow or even stun. He has good disengage unless the enemy is you know irelia, a ranged melee champion. > But fine, lets say its an unfavorable matchup, and you tend to lose a 1v1 against irelia, like irelia vs zed. Zed is in a good spot, and isn&#x27;t out of meta, yet in a 1v1, zed will usually lose. But according to your logic, zed should win, as he has alot more movement speed (10 to be precise). Its all about those burst per seconds. Morde beats zed and urgot in 1v1's right now because they have shit upfront. Urgot is kitable even to mordes standards, and zed has a short range. > ...except nearly all champions have a form of cc, weak or not. Take ornn for example. He has the same movement speed as irelia, and is quite immobile (i don&#x27;t count his e as a form of reliable disengage, as he is susceptible to being harshly kited, and there is a small delay at the end of the channel if he hits nothing), so by your argument, he loses in a 1v1 against irelia, since he has lower range autos, less attack speed, and can &quot;get kited&quot;. Yet from all games ive played as ornn/ every ornn vs irelia matchup ive seen, ornn usually wins this lane, and the trades usually aren&#x27;t even close. Ornn usually wins by a landslide, as he has a knockup, a slow, another knockup, a.... you get the idea. Is he broken though? Hell no, he was nerfed hard, and has a low winrate (43%). Orn has mobility and a good base movement speed. She can still kite him, but its harder because of his e (which is cancelable btw) > Even with cc, most champs have an auto attacking enhancer. Enter Nasus. Heavy bursting frontline tank Woah noones going to agree that nasus is a tank, he is a bruiser, get that shit discussion out of here. > The argument that irelia is broken because she has more auto range isn&#x27;t valid (see tahm, or any champ with cc/ auto enhancers) Tahm was actually kinda nerfed to shit because he was too good at doing the things you say he was shit at... > The argument that irelia is broken because she has more movement speed than other champions (not that true, the middleground for movement speed is at 335, where irelia sits at currently. Also, champs with higher movement speed than her can still lose in a 1v1, like zed) She shouldn't be losing to zed if she times her damage reduction right... > Many people have already learned how to fight her, as she sits at a fair 46% winrate ( in plat.) Go ask a large portion of the boards, winrate is not the same as balanced. > Argue all you want, but irelia isn&#x27;t broken. She&#x27;s just frustrating because you have to subconsciously think, like when you lane against yasuo, draven, or nasus. If you&#x27;re frustrated with her and don&#x27;t know how to play against her, fine, then ban her until you learn, then learn to counter other champs. (Note: this thread didn&#x27;t start off as an irelia hate spam, but a ban plea). Ummm draven yasuo and nasus are easy. If they get into range you clap them, if they kite you they win. The issue is irelia has range, Mobility, Healing, cc, dashes, damage reduction. Her kit is actually over loaded. > (PS: Morde isn&#x27;t rewarded for standing next to champions, he&#x27;s rewarded for getting to them and bursting them down. If he fails to do such, he loses/gets kited to oblivion. If he succeeds, he gets more burst/tankiness, more map control, and possibly a pet drag. ) Morde's inital design was much like vladimirs' sustained long term fighting. Only recently was this whole burst morde a thing. I know this because I've mained him since season 1. Initially he built much like a bruiser 3-4 tank items... Irelia literally has to be a retard to lose to morde, because she can kite and nuke him.
....so we doin this. hoo boy. You chopped up my argument, and took the pieces that fit with your argument completely to counter my argument. You have to view it in its entirety. A. For one, like i mentioned, morde gets completely crapped in laning phase ("He loses passively, but wins duels"). Its extremely similar to Darius vs nasus. Darius harshly wins that lane, but give nasus a few stacks and armor, and nasus can take on Darius. This usually occurs 35 mins into the game, after laning phase. Morde loses lane to irelia, bc Irelia has harsher zone. However, give them both items, and Morde holds his own against irelia, and can even push her back. Most Morde mains complain against irelia matchups because laning phase sucks, and seeing how most games are short, thats the majority of the game for them. It isn't fun, so they complain.... just like how laners who fight pantheon complain. B. I've played kench top, pre nerfs, pre buffs, post buffs, post nerfs, so on. I know his strengths, and I know his weaknesses. He has passive sustain, but not dueling sustain, so his best strat is to poke them down then go in with a burst combo. I wouldn't really count his q as a solid disengage: while his q does give a hefty slow, it stops at the first target hit, and roots him. since duels in lane usually occur around minions, he can't freely waddle out, so he has to take a few hits, and if they chase him, then he can q, and get a bit of distance, then passive heal off his e and dorans shield (if he has it). Even if he slows, there are matchups where he still dies, like Darius, who has 2 slows (e and w) and a pull (e), or garen (insane tenacity if procced correct, and his spin still damages if he's eaten), jax (q and e, usually used seperatly in lane when fighting tahm), so on so forth. C. In a sheer 1v1, I do agree that zed loses against morde. It's why zed never does try for that 1v1, he instead pokes down morde from a distance to ensure morde cant get shield procs with his skills, then goes in for the kill. Urgot has scaling damage/burst, so in all stages of the game, urgot can win against morde. I'll assume you mean zed's range is short by his auto range, but zed never autos someone to death. He combos them, or ult combos them, then uses his passive proc to chunk em hard. Zed=/=yi. D.You are correct, I think ornn's movement speed is at a fine spot. However, like i stated, he isn't mobile. His dash is long, yes, but like I stated, there is a delay if he hits nothing, causing him to just sit there for a short delay, which is all it takes for the enemy to catch up. Granted, Ornn usually follows this up with his Q slow, so that's how he escapes, but just because a champion escapes doesn't mean they have mobility. I've seen many elise players escape a near death experience. Do they have mobility? Heck no. They just stun, spider form, then crawl away. It should also be noted I brang up Ornn as an example to how Irelia can't kite due to cc in champion kits, yet you're here trying to discuss how I'm incorrect, which is ad hominem, or even attacking the person fallacy/ies. So thus, I will correct, and move on. E. The nasus thing. You dismissed the entire nasus argument because I used the word tank, rather than bruiser. I believe that's straw man fallacy. Even if you disagree with the nasus being a tank thing, that takes 0 away from the argument. F. You are correct, irelia wins in a 1v1 against zed. _that was the point of my argument_. I wanted to say that movement speed means very little in a 1v1 where theres high mobility. My argument was pointed out and justified yourself, so thus I need not say more here. G. Actually, many don't like irelia because, like i've said, they don't like thinking more or differently when fighting her. It should also be noted that 70+% of players are gold and below, and it's usually those players who complain. Skill level and learning curves do exist, and with that, frustration. It's why champs like Yi can faceroll in lower elos (causing said players to complain), yet be considered a trollpick in higher elo. H. I do like this argument, its a solid one. Irelia has alot, which is why she's frustrating. However, a few things. Her heal comes from her Q, so thus, in a 1v1 ( which is what many players complain about), she doesn't have much sustain. She has mobility, yet I once again repeat, with minions in presence. Treat her like yasuo, and her mobility disappears. irelia has a nice bit of a stun and a slow, I agree. However, I have yet to see irelia use the ult as a disengage, but rather to catch enemies out. Her e is a nice stun, yes, but if she chooses to use it, she has no forms of disengage. If she wants to burst the enemy down, she sacrifices mobility and cc, making it a fair trade. She gets much, loses a lot as well. I repeat, once again, she usually uses damage reduct when shes caught out. She never uses it to engage. If she uses it, that means she ran out of dashes or tricks, so then while she has damage reduct, she also lets the enemy know where she is and that she is in a bad spot, allowing for harsh retaliation. I. You make a fair point with morde. However, like mentioned earlier, she has to sacrifice mobility and cc/disengage if she wants to burst him down. If she's successful, she gets rewarded. If she fails, morde can lock her down and severely punish her. Last but not least... J. _This isn't an irelia hate thread._ This is a thread discussing the frustration of fighting certain champs, and irelia just happened to pop out because she's frustrating. The entire argument that was made, and my retaliations, contribute literally nothing. I simply wanted to tell peeps to learn how to fight other champs, but you took it and molded it into an irelia hate club. Instead of saying "Haha, I'm right" and bandwagon-ing (fallacy btw), contribute to the conversation, instead of digressing harshly.
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=dontspinbutwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9jk1YpnJ,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-12-06T22:31:32.895+0000) > > Who does irelia have more movement speed than? What range do you refer to? Many champs can dash through/to champions, like lee sin, rakan, yasuo. Her on click dash is annoying, yes, but there are other champions I can name who have that but better, but isn&#x27;t as mentioned as much as champions such as akali or irelia (Like Rengar, warwick, xin, Yi, Talon, etc). > > You are right, morde was killable if properly kited, but it took a few months for people to learn how to deal with him in bot, similarly how it took people a while to learn how to play jhin or taliyah upon release. Right now everyone is learning how to fight against her, and I just only found out why she&#x27;s so frustrating to fight a few months ago, and I adapted my playstyle against her. Just adapt and improvise rather than trying the same thing, then complaining when that same thing doesn&#x27;t work. she has more movement speed than morde... and well anyone below her MS... She has 200 attack range she can actually kite morde without him being able to auto attack her... Morde is supposed to be rewarded for standing still against melee champs... he loses trades to irelia even if she doesn't damage reduce his 3rd Q.
....dude. I'm not saying morde is the sole reason Irelia is able to be killed. I used Morde as an example, an analogy so to speak. However, even in a 1v1, it is extremely possible for morde to win a 1v1. It is true, irelia has 335 movement speed, while morde has 325, but mordekaiser usually gets rylais to compensate for his lack of mobility, as well as gunblade for the burst/slow/heal. Irelia has a larger attack range than most melees, yes, but as morde has a shield for using skills (as that is how all fights are usually determined), irelia has to burst him down before he juggles his shields, as if he does, he wins the duel.... meaning she has to go in with her e-q-q...meaning she has 0 forms of disengage if she chooses to fight. Morde suffers in a passive matchup, yes, but in a raw 1v1 duel, morde has the upper hand. I digress however. "she has more movement speed than morde... and well anyone below her MS..." ...Dude. That's common knowledge. Thats like saying kench is an undefeatable duelist because he has 200 AA range and has 335 movement speed, like irelia, thus allowing him to kite with his harsh slows and autos. However, he has 0 way to disengage, but has sustainability in exchange for it. Similarly, Irelia is in the same pot. She has mobility, but she doesn't have much sustain, in which she makes up for by burst. However, if she fails to burst/trade ( which happens, believe it or not), she gets punished severely for it, as she makes the walk of shame back while taking agro from the enemy. But fine, lets say its an unfavorable matchup, and you tend to lose a 1v1 against irelia, like irelia vs zed. Zed is in a good spot, and isn't out of meta, yet in a 1v1, zed will usually lose. But according to your logic, zed should win, as he has alot more movement speed (10 to be precise). Ok, but thats just one champion right? Well how about urgot? He has 5 less movement speed than irelia, but many of us know in a 1v1, irelia would lose drastically. Why? Because Irelia is a bursty bruiser, while urgot is a bursty dps frontliner ( not necessarily bruiser), who excels in disruption. Well, lets say by some miracle, the champs have equil movement speed and dueling potential. Irelia can "kite" with her 200 range autos right? ...except nearly all champions have a form of cc, weak or not. Take ornn for example. He has the same movement speed as irelia, and is quite immobile (i don't count his e as a form of reliable disengage, as he is susceptible to being harshly kited, and there is a small delay at the end of the channel if he hits nothing), so by your argument, he loses in a 1v1 against irelia, since he has lower range autos, less attack speed, and can "get kited". Yet from all games ive played as ornn/ every ornn vs irelia matchup ive seen, ornn usually wins this lane, and the trades usually aren't even close. Ornn usually wins by a landslide, as he has a knockup, a slow, another knockup, a.... you get the idea. Is he broken though? Hell no, he was nerfed hard, and has a low winrate (43%). Even with cc, most champs have an auto attacking enhancer. Enter Nasus. Heavy bursting frontline tank who can literally 3v1. Is he broken? Hell no, hes just frustrating to fight, because you have to pressure him all game, or the chances of winning are lowered. The argument that irelia is broken because she has more auto range isn't valid (see tahm, or any champ with cc/ auto enhancers) The argument that irelia is broken because she has more movement speed than other champions (not that true, the middleground for movement speed is at 335, where irelia sits at currently. Also, champs with higher movement speed than her can still lose in a 1v1, like zed) Many people have already learned how to fight her, as she sits at a fair 46% winrate ( in plat.) Argue all you want, but irelia isn't broken. She's just frustrating because you have to subconsciously think, like when you lane against yasuo, draven, or nasus. If you're frustrated with her and don't know how to play against her, fine, then ban her until you learn, then learn to counter other champs. (Note: this thread didn't start off as an irelia hate spam, but a ban plea). (PS: Morde isn't rewarded for standing next to champions, he's rewarded for getting to them and bursting them down. If he fails to do such, he loses/gets kited to oblivion. If he succeeds, he gets more burst/tankiness, more map control, and possibly a pet drag. )
Rioter Comments
GigglesO (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=dontspinbutwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9jk1YpnJ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-06T21:35:57.529+0000) > > Remember when we only had 3 bans per team, and it was only first pick who could ban? > > Now we have 1 ban per player, so we can ban whoever we think is frustrating. > > Of course, the argument here is &quot;but they&#x27;re all frustrating to play against&quot;. Why exactly are they frustrating to play against then? > > For Irelia, treat her like a bruiser version of Yasuo. She only has mobility through minions, so be cautious around them. > Her primary burst comes from &quot;E-Q-Q-auto&quot;. Her e is a narrow skillshot that doesn&#x27;t have much casting range (not &quot;range&quot;, CASTING range), so it forces her to dash around minions in hopes that she can stun you. If she misses, she really has no burst potential there.\ > Her W may have much damage reduction, yet she usually only uses it in a last ditch effort, similarly to when a Yi is meditating during combat. Just be cautious after the channel, and dodge her e if she casts it. > > Agreed, I can see why she might be frustrating to fight, you have to think while fighting her. But then again, have you ever imagined how the enemy feels when fighting your champions? > > Every champion is extremely frustrating to fight if you don&#x27;t know how to play against it, thats it. Remember when teemo was the most infuriating toplaner? Now, many champions learned how to deal with him, how to bait his blind, how to burst him down, and how to give up cs. > > Remember when morde was the unkillable ADC in bot? Now, hes a joke, because people learned how to kite. > > Just learn weaknesses, and stop assuming that a champion is OP or broken, just because they&#x27;re frustrating to fight. Irealia also has more movement speed, range, and can dash through champions. Morde was never unkillable if you kited him.
Who does irelia have more movement speed than? What range do you refer to? Many champs can dash through/to champions, like lee sin, rakan, yasuo. Her on click dash is annoying, yes, but there are other champions I can name who have that but better, but isn't as mentioned as much as champions such as akali or irelia (Like Rengar, warwick, xin, Yi, Talon, etc). You are right, morde was killable if properly kited, but it took a few months for people to learn how to deal with him in bot, similarly how it took people a while to learn how to play jhin or taliyah upon release. Right now everyone is learning how to fight against her, and I just only found out why she's so frustrating to fight a few months ago, and I adapted my playstyle against her. Just adapt and improvise rather than trying the same thing, then complaining when that same thing doesn't work.
: Give us 2 bans per player
Remember when we only had 3 bans per team, and it was only first pick who could ban? Now we have 1 ban per player, so we can ban whoever we think is frustrating. Of course, the argument here is "but they're all frustrating to play against". Why exactly are they frustrating to play against then? For Irelia, treat her like a bruiser version of Yasuo. She only has mobility through minions, so be cautious around them. Her primary burst comes from "E-Q-Q-auto". Her e is a narrow skillshot that doesn't have much casting range (not "range", CASTING range), so it forces her to dash around minions in hopes that she can stun you. If she misses, she really has no burst potential there.\ Her W may have much damage reduction, yet she usually only uses it in a last ditch effort, similarly to when a Yi is meditating during combat. Just be cautious after the channel, and dodge her e if she casts it. Agreed, I can see why she might be frustrating to fight, you have to think while fighting her. But then again, have you ever imagined how the enemy feels when fighting your champions? Every champion is extremely frustrating to fight if you don't know how to play against it, thats it. Remember when teemo was the most infuriating toplaner? Now, many champions learned how to deal with him, how to bait his blind, how to burst him down, and how to give up cs. Remember when morde was the unkillable ADC in bot? Now, hes a joke, because people learned how to kite. Just learn weaknesses, and stop assuming that a champion is OP or broken, just because they're frustrating to fight.
: Bty LeBlanc is not a assassin riot considers her a burst mage and to your point a assassin is ability based so champions like vayne would be not be considered assassins since her kit is focused around auto attacking and assassins kits focus around damage and have low survivability kled and Renekton both have good survivability in there kits. A assassin like talon and zed can both easy get in and out of fights while doing damage but if they get cced they just die and they both have burst damage meaning once they done there combo they can not do much else.
Yi was released by riot as an assassin, and his primary damage output is through his autos. Rengar's Q is an auto enhancing reset, and his burst comes from how well he can reset his autos with his empowered Q and normal Q. Yasuo's secondary role by riot is an assassin. Quinn's primary burst comes from her enhanced auto from her passive/duskblade/stormraiser. Note that there aren't many auto attacking reliant champions after a while. It's because you can't dodge auto attacks (aside from blinds and jax). Thats why riot decided to change things a bit, and make burst into skills, which is why zed was seen as such a good example of an assassin for the longest time. Talon's main burst comes from his ult, q, w, and passive proc. only problem is once he's in, there isn't a designated escape skill, aside his E, which isn't the most dependable if the fight's occuring in the middle of the lane. You are correct in the fact that if an assassin gets cced, they can be bursted down ...except thats usually the case for every champion in the game (aside from heavy sustain tanks, like mundo). That's why even the tanks are cautious before a teamfight breaks out, because one misstep and they could get bursted down. So the idea of "cc burst separates assassins from everyone else" really doesn't apply, as if I cc an adc, they usually die as well.
: I think what makes assassins what they are is their sneakiness. Now every class has burst, it is no longer unique to assassins and mages. But assassins have multiple dashes/stealth/invulnerability in their kits to overcome obstacles like CC that might stop a regular old bruiser in its tracks. I can't think of a single assassin without having atleast 2 of the 3 (dash/stealth/invul) in some cases they have multiple dashes in conjunction with stealth/invul to outplay the enemy. Although with recent releases, riot has been overloading kits with dashes/invul/stealth/ so there are some non assasin champions that break these rules. But assassin champions have all of these in ADDITION to an ult that gives them empowered burst. I can't seem to think of any non-assasin champion with the sneaky+ burst ult. I can't think of any assassin champions without sneakiness + an ult that helps them assassinate quickly. Another thing is how quickly they can get their skills off. A talon/zed/rengar doing their full combo will probably get it off in half the time a renekton would get off his full combo, for example. And this part is an opinion but... assassins are kinda hard to play in ranked. Everyone plays really safe/well and I just can't find a good time to jump on their carries for a kill (probably cuz I suck at assasins, lol.) Why bother playing assasins, when as you said, renekton can also kill a carry, while being somewhat tanky?. So, it's not that assassins aren't unique as a class, but I see no reason to play them (unless for fun), so I do agree with you on that regard.
I mean I get a bit of your side, but there are other champions that just downright follow what an assassin is supposed to be vs how riot announces them. Like for example, yi was released to be an assassin, yet he's best played as a 1 shotting bruiser, who does the same as AD yi, but survives. Then we have Camille, who riot announces as a duelist, yet she has 2 dashes in her e, true damage, auto resets, max%hp damage, and an onclick ult that prevents any escape, aka the best lockdown in the game. Also, seeing as her ult is 3 seconds long, it forces the camille to burst down her target before they can escape. Theres J4, who can easily kill any adc with a EQ auto. All these 3 champs follow your criteria of dashes, fast combos, and ult that secures burst (with yi's being a powerful buff), yet they aren't really known as assassins, but bruisers or duelists.
Rioter Comments
: Judging still going on. I was hoping to have them tomorrow but it looks like it might take a little longer.
Where will the winners be announced? On boards, I assume?
: The Grand Archives of Piltover [CONTEST]
When will the results be announced?
: I dont know what you are talking about. Arcane magic is horrid and evil, and radiant magic is different because its from gods one is inherent power and requirres practice, the other is gained from trust and worship. Garen is styled after a paladin after all. But he doesnt worship anyone you say he worships himself dude, he worships his own godly self
Garen worships God King Garen canon when?
Rioter Comments
Zéychin (NA)
: I one-tricked Illaoi through Season 7 and part of season 8. My name was even Illaominati for a good amount of time. Giving Illaoi a 0.75s stun would give her far too much power and 0.75s is not a "micro" stun. This would potentially completely break her. It would basically be full AD Sion Q-from-bush levels of cheese. Her stun would guarantee her combo and the opponent would have little to do in response. She already has a gimmick in her E that leaves her opponent very little counterplay if Illaoi is ahead (she'll burst the spirit before they can respond), but this would make her even more disgusting. She definitely needs help right now, but we can't give her hard CC with that much burst, unless it's actually a microstun, like Akali's R1 or she'll end up getting gutted into the ground in the rest of her kit.
I do believe that hard CC on a champion like illaoi seems quite.... dastardly, but I do think she pays a harsh price is she chooses to charge up her Q. For option A, it roots illaoi in place for quite a while, and unlike sion's Q, it's quite narrow, so many champs would be able to sidestep it if she chose to charge up. So why would she do it? Bush strats, harsher zoning, and wombo combo-ing, with the price being her mobility. Since illaoi's Q roots her, she would be a sitting duck if someone ducked outta her Q and began to auto her. For that reason, I think even if this did get passed, many players would still single tap her Q for the quick burst. But for the few occations that do arise, she has a chargeup Q burst, so she has multiple options, rather than "E-R-W-Q-W". For option B, I get that a stun on a champ such as illaoi sounds insane. However, she's still rooted, and champion's are only stunned _after_ they get knocked back away from illaoi, leaving illaoi the choice of either engaging on the further away target, or running to safety. knowing that champions have to be relatively close to illaoi for her to have any impact on them, the Q chargeup might be detrimental if illaoi uses it incorrectly. So thus, illaoi can't go for the Q chargeup every time, as champions with longrange poke, such as a Caitlyn or a brand, would abuse that. Regardless of either option, Illaoi would have to sacrifice much ( her mobility, which she has jack of) if she chose to charge up her Q, and I think for that reason this minor Q change might give her the slightest amount of depth, changing her kit from "kill or be killed" to "kill, be killed, OR run/set something up for a teammate".
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dontspinbutwin

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