: "We're nerfing Poppy's positioning ability and defensive values because she's too stat checky"
There are some really important differences between Mundo/Garen and Poppy. Mundo and Garen are juggernauts. They have very low CC and no team utility. If you they aren't doing a lot of damage and sponging up a lot of damage, they are completely useless. They are, quintessentially, stat checks. Poppy has a ton of team utility. She has a small knockback that can stun, she cancels dashes in a large zone around her, and she has her massive ultimate knockback. Poppy doesn't need to be as amazing a fighter in order to be useful. She brings stuff to the table aside from raw damage and tankiness. Garen and Mundo need to be tanky as hell and do a lot of damage in order to ever be picked, because they bring absolutely nothing else to the table. I do think Garen and Mundo can stand to have kit tweaks at some point. They are very binary and stat-checky. But in the meantime, they are just straight up underpowered, and could use some love.
Zed genius (EUNE)
: yeah I get it, but maybe they want to keep that aspect of viktor there and try to remove power from elsewhere
I don't understand what you're saying here, exactly. Keep what aspect of Viktor? His mana scaling? But they want to nerf the late game shield value? In any case, I cannot imagine that Riot intended for this nerf. They haven't said anything about him being overpowered in general. They applied a one-size-fits-all mana nerf across the board. The mana nerf impacts him in all the regular ways that it impacts all mages, but it has an additional, unique affect on his kit and his total power level. If Riot comes in here and says "Ya, we know, but we decided VIktor was too tanky late game, so this is an intended nerf"... well, I'd be shocked, but I'd accept it. But I would bet $100 bucks that they just forgot that Viktor had mana scaling on his Q, and that this is a completely unintended nerf. It certainly doesn't look intentional.
Zed genius (EUNE)
: Viktor is part of the problem though
A lot of people seem confused about what I'm actually saying. See my edit.
MujinTengu (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=doubleguac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ypKJHYw4,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-23T13:35:50.294+0000) > > I think it was a pretty smart nerf. Riot has said they're fine with E maxing, but they want Sion to make a real trade-off by doing so. I think the nerf pretty much accomplishes that. > > Increasing the Q cooldown is a horrible idea IMO. The ability is insanely easy to dodge and cancel. It has a huge amount of counterplay already. It is gated by it's incredibly telegraphed nature; it doesn't need to be additionally gated by cooldown. They nerfed his Q scaling early on, I don't see much of a trade-off concerning Sion built as a Tank. If they nerfed his Flat and increased his Scaling I could of understand that. that way, I don't.
Sion used to not give much up by leveling E first. His E does WAY more damage at rank 5. His Q still did a lot of damage at rank 1 because it had such a massive ratio. Now, if you level E first, you are actually giving up most of your Q damage until mid/late game. Just like how, if you level Q first, you are giving up most of your E damage until mid/late game. They're just trying to balance between the two builds. Before this change, leveling E first was pretty much always the way to go no matter what. Now it's more of a trade-off either way. If you were leveling Q first anyways before this patch, the changes shouldn't impact you at all. The small base damage buff will make up for the lost AD ratio until you hit level 9. EDIT: Also, just to point out, the ratio on his Q is based off of total AD, not bonus AD. You don't have to stack any AD at all for the scaling to matter a lot.
: Every mage in the game is getting base mana level 1 buffs, but mana per level is getting lowered to compensate for the loss of mana and mana regen from Doran's Ring. The result is that early game, mages will have a much larger starting mana pool, but late game it'll be smaller to stop them from just infinitely stalling out games with their waveclear.
I understand what the changes are meant to do, and how they work. Did you read my post, though? **I'm not commenting on the mana changes in general. I'm commenting on the fact that Viktor** (and maybe some other mages?) **has direct mana scaling on his kit.** As in, his Q shield is based off of his maximum mana, not his AP. At rank 18, his Q is going to have a much lower shield value than it does now. This is a pretty large nerf to him. I don't think he deserves a nerf, and I don't think that this was an intended nerf. I think Riot just forgot that he had mana scaling when they made the big mana changes. So I think Viktor should receive some compensation buffs... not to his mana costs, but to his Q shield value, to make up for shield value he is losing on account of his lower base mana.
MujinTengu (EUNE)
: Sion's Nerf >>> Was it the right approach!?
I think it was a pretty smart nerf. Riot has said they're fine with E maxing, but they want Sion to make a real trade-off by doing so. I think the nerf pretty much accomplishes that. Increasing the Q cooldown is a horrible idea IMO. The ability is insanely easy to dodge and cancel. It has a huge amount of counterplay already. It is gated by it's incredibly telegraphed nature; it doesn't need to be additionally gated by cooldown.
Rioter Comments
: I'm no expert on Victor, but would it be such a huge setback to buy Tear before hex core upgrades? It's just 750g, which is less than your first core upgrade, and gives you plenty of mana.
Viktor can't lane or trade until he completes at least MK1 (1250 gold). Before MK1, he has very poor waveclear on top of his mana issues. First buying it is absolutely essential. His kit doesn't really start functioning in trades and skirmishes until MK2 (2250 gold total). You could maybe sneak in a tear between MK1 and MK2 (3000 gold total for all three) Thing is, tear gives no combat stats. And Hexcore MK2 only gives stats-per-level. It's horribly inefficient until you're high level. After spending 3000 gold, you'd be sitting on between 54-66 bonus AP, plus the mana, and that's it. That's pitiful compared to what your lane opponent would have been able to afford with that same gold. 3000 is nearly the same cost as a completed Seraphs or Ludens. I've seen people do it, but I think it only works if: A) your lane opponent is completely passive and the jungler isn't bothering you B) Your team doesn't need you in early/mid game skirmishes If both these things are true, you're going to have a very high chance of winning the game with or without tear. On top of all this, archangel's early game stats are already getting nerfed on PBE, which means very soon you'd be delaying your spike even more.
: Doesn't his Hexcore have mana?
Ya, but like all the stats on his hexcores, it's only per-level scaling (10 at prototype, 15 MK1, 20 MK2, 25 perfect). No base stats. So, extremely cost-inefficient early game. It gives him plenty of mana late game. But, at level 7, with MK1 completed, you've paid 1250 for 105 mana. Which is not even enough for 1 cast of his E. Vs. other mids, who are paying 750 for {{item:3070}} or 1100 for {{item:3802}}. Once Viktor has spent 2250 on it, say, by level 10 or 11, he's still only getting 200-220 mana. Which, again, is way less mana than most other mids (many of whom have substantially lower mana costs than him) are getting from their first big purchases. Viktor's problems are all early laning, when his hexcores give very little mana. This change would just help him have slightly less mana problems at the stage of the game where he already struggles. I understand that he's intended to have a weak early laning phase, but I think it might be a little too punishing at the moment.
SEKAI (OCE)
: OP has never seen the real horror of fed Draven and Lucian.
Fed draven and lucian are super strong in the mid game, but they have tons of counterplay in the late game. Very different than late game twitch, who pops out of stealth and two hits your backline from outside their range. Ya, they can snowball and take over a game, but that's the point of picking a mid-game snowballer. You still have ample opportunity to come back against these guys. As opposed to twitch or sometimes Trist, where it does sometimes feel like, if they get fed early, the game is pretty much over.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=doubleguac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k6KPQtiF,comment-id=000200000002,timestamp=2018-04-07T00:55:26.209+0000) > > It was made that very early in the history of league, so that people couldn't hard counter champions just by taking cleanse. > > If cleanse removes suppression, then anyone laning against a malzahar takes it, and malzahar's whole kit doesn't work. > > Suppressions are generally pretty essential the champ's kit. If you let people cleanse those abilities, the champion doesn't function anymore. May as well remove cleanse then because it has no purpose outside of Zoe's E. Anything you can do with cleanse you can do with QSS(and QSS does MORE), ADCs get more benefit out of it than anything else because it has damage for them(AND MORE MR), but mid laners are stuck with buying it and still taking huge chunks of damage from Malz because his voidlings are sitting there autoing you even after you cleanse and you're almost dead whether ahead or behind. Suppression is the most BS CC in the game, honestly. They could have easily changed Malz' ulti when they reworked him to be more fair while also rewarding him for landing it(assuming they made it a skillshot or something), but no, they decided point and click unable to move while taking huge damage was fair, and that coupled with the rest of his reworked kit obviously made him easier as a support, which caused a lot of problems. No just better to keep him weak instead of actually fix his design problems. Also, ~~you're~~ (actually other people are, just was reading didn't look at names)claiming people aren't sacrificing anything by taking cleanse instead of another summoner spell. Let's see...80-505 TRUE DAMAGE over 5 seconds, 115-455 shield for 2 seconds, lowering enemy damage by 40% and movement speed by 30% for 2.5 seconds. Cleanse has nothing over those summoner spells, and is only useful for maybe one occasion. It's a terrible summoner spell that has nothing over the others considering barrier could protect you from the same amount of damage you'd likely take while CCed, and likely have plenty of HP to spare after their rotation, exhaust would lower their damage while they CCed you, etc etc. Also, cleanse has a 210 second cooldown. Malz's ult is 140-80 second cooldown while Warwick's is 110-70 seconds. They'll get to use their ult much more often than your cleanse, can ult other champions who DON'T have cleanse, and you'll still be taking at least the initial damage from their ults when you do cleanse(and in Malz's case, damage from his minions).
>May as well remove cleanse then because it has no purpose outside of Zoe's E. I think it's very useful against a number of champions. {{champion:99}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:1}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:74}} {{champion:245}} {{champion:101}} {{champion:142}} {{champion:26}} {{champion:45}} are all mids /supps that I will take it against very frequently. I would much rather have cleanse than barrier or ignite against most of those champions in most situations. Being able to cleanse Veigar stun, Lux snare, Heimer grenade, Morg snare, annie stun, etc., all massively decreases their ability to pick you, while also giving you much more kill pressure against them. Basically, there are lots of champions who have non-suppression CC that is pretty essential to their basic combos. Taking cleanse is a great way to disrupt those champs. If you cleanse veigar stun, for instance, the only abilities he can hit you with are his Q and ult. it takes away basically all of his solo kill pressure against you, as well as his "get out of jail" card if you are engaging on him. Also, ya, obviously, QSS is stronger. But QSS is an item that no champion can reasonably rush, and that isn't very slot efficient in lots of champions' final build. It gives counterplay to suppresses, but it also represents a much steeper opportunity cost than cleanse does. Plus it still allows those champs a window where they can target you (before you complete the item).
: I know and you do make sense, but I still am confused. Say that you have a skeleton key that unlocks every door in your house except one particular door. That door being the front door which is locked with a chain. So a suppression in this instance would be being locked outside while the chain is down. My question is why would this situation occur? Why bother with the skeleton key if the most likely door you'd want to open when locked can't be opened. Or to leave the realm of bad metaphors, why bother having cleanse as a summoner spell when the longest cc in the game is immune to it?
It was made that very early in the history of league, so that people couldn't hard counter champions just by taking cleanse. If cleanse removes suppression, then anyone laning against a malzahar takes it, and malzahar's whole kit doesn't work. Suppressions are generally pretty essential the champ's kit. If you let people cleanse those abilities, the champion doesn't function anymore.
MrHaZeYo (NA)
: She's like the only champion whose entire Kit is skill shots. She really isn't that hard to deal with in lane.
Aside from her snare, all her skill shots are extremely generous and fast moving. I also think that people overestimate the difficulty of skillshots, relative to other champ mechanics. Ya, she has to hit a lot of skillshots, but she's very low risk, she doesn't have to worry too much about positioning, she has very obvious and straightforward skill combos, etc. You basically just stand back and cast your skills on cooldown, and if you hit a snare, you dump your ult on top of it. I'm not saying she's the easiest champ in the game, but I definitely wouldn't say she's particularly mechanically intensive. I agree she's not that bad to play against in lane. She can be pretty annoying late game, though. I'm not sure why Riot thought it was necessary to give her ult a 10 second cooldown if she scores a kill with it.
Biotic (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=doubleguac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H5NgmcV9,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-04T16:02:19.305+0000) > > Viktor felt really good for one or two patches after his Q buff. I've been struggling a bit with him again, though. It feels like every other mage got buffed in lane with the item changes. But Viktor can't really enjoy the new items, since he's still forced to spend his first 2250 gold on augments. If you take Viktor and any other mage, and compare their items at 3300 gold, the difference is just nuts. {{item:3285}} or {{item:3040}} vs. hexcore level 2 (which gives about 60 AP maybe at that point) plus a blasting rod. The difference is even worse if you compare first back (hexcore mk1 vs 1250 gold spent on any other items). > > I get the logic of scaling teamfight champions needing to have weak early games, but I don't feel like this paradigm is applied fairly. There are lots of mages who scale well, and also have great team fight presence, but who aren't saddled with a crap early game. {{champion:34}} with {{item:3040}} and {{item:3027}} also scales incredibly well, and has many of the same strengths as Viktor (wave clear, zoning), but she enjoys an infinitely safer and smoother laning phase and build path. {{champion:268}} is a hyperscaling mage, and he can straight up bully in lane. {{champion:61}} maybe doesn't scale quite as hard, but she's strong at literally every point in the game (she definitely doesn't fall off at any point) and can basically perma-zone other mages off creeps. > > I'd love to see Viktor get some base stats back on his augments. Or lower the mana cost a bit on either his E or his Q, since he is one of the only mages in the game who doesn't get to rush a mana item. > > Or, hell, just tie the damn augments to his ult, khazix-style. The whole hexcore system is an interesting gimmick in theory, but in practice, all it does is restrict his builds and make him incredibly gold dependent. Which is maybe important to his balance, IDK. Maybe viktor would be broken if he had more item flexibility, that's a real possibility. > > But just to be completely clear, the hexcore system certainly isn't a **fun** feature. I don't enjoy being forced to spend gold on items that give nothing but scaling AP. It feels worse and worse with every new season, since Riot is moving more and more away from items that just provide stats. Every item now has a fun and interesting unique passive or active. Meanwhile, Viktor is lashed to his huge AP stat stick. > > This is coming from a long-time Viktor player, btw. I have 250k mastery on him, and I've been playing him very avidly since season 3, way before his rework. I consider myself a very dedicated fan of the champ, and I don't really enjoy the hexcore system, and I can't imagine how any person could. It's one of the only passives in the game that feels like a limitation more than a strength. Theyre just compunding the problems that he already has. My most frequent build is {{item:3198}} {{item:3020}} {{item:3040}} {{item:3100}} and then left with the option of two items which are between {{item:3102}} {{item:3089}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3157}} The caveat to {{champion:112}} is his itemization and how easy it is to set {{champion:112}} back through one death/zoning. With this new minion change, it is much more difficult to properly farm under turret against champs such as{{champion:61}} , {{champion:105}} , and {{champion:245}} and with junglers such as {{champion:19}} , {{champion:154}} , and {{champion:113}} , it becomes nearly impossible It would be nice if they could speed up his itemization------------------DECREASE THE HEXCORE COSTS---------to not make it such a burden and compensate for the fact that most of his items will not have resistances({{item:3100}} is a must).....(you could throw out {{item:3089}} but good luck getting past 600 ap)......({{item:3135}} {{item:3165}} you could have no pen but go against {{champion:61}} with {{item:3102}} and youre screwed)
I just straight up permaban fizz. I can't lane against him. It feels like, if I get hit by a single ult, I'm dead. Doesn't matter if I'm full health under tower and just hit level 6. That fish is a death sentence, and it's too hard to dodge as a dashless champion. Ori is also very tough to lane against if she plays aggressively.
Biotic (NA)
: Any plans for Viktor, RIOT?
Viktor felt really good for one or two patches after his Q buff. I've been struggling a bit with him again, though. It feels like every other mage got buffed in lane with the item changes. But Viktor can't really enjoy the new items, since he's still forced to spend his first 2250 gold on augments. If you take Viktor and any other mage, and compare their items at 3300 gold, the difference is just nuts. {{item:3285}} or {{item:3040}} vs. hexcore level 2 (which gives about 60 AP maybe at that point) plus a blasting rod. The difference is even worse if you compare first back (hexcore mk1 vs 1250 gold spent on any other items). I get the logic of scaling teamfight champions needing to have weak early games, but I don't feel like this paradigm is applied fairly. There are lots of mages who scale well, and also have great team fight presence, but who aren't saddled with a crap early game. {{champion:34}} with {{item:3040}} and {{item:3027}} also scales incredibly well, and has many of the same strengths as Viktor (wave clear, zoning), but she enjoys an infinitely safer and smoother laning phase and build path. {{champion:268}} is a hyperscaling mage, and he can straight up bully in lane. {{champion:61}} maybe doesn't scale quite as hard, but she's strong at literally every point in the game (she definitely doesn't fall off at any point) and can basically perma-zone other mages off creeps. I'd love to see Viktor get some base stats back on his augments. Or lower the mana cost a bit on either his E or his Q, since he is one of the only mages in the game who doesn't get to rush a mana item. Or, hell, just tie the damn augments to his ult, khazix-style. The whole hexcore system is an interesting gimmick in theory, but in practice, all it does is restrict his builds and make him incredibly gold dependent. Which is maybe important to his balance, IDK. Maybe viktor would be broken if he had more item flexibility, that's a real possibility. But just to be completely clear, the hexcore system certainly isn't a **fun** feature. I don't enjoy being forced to spend gold on items that give nothing but scaling AP. It feels worse and worse with every new season, since Riot is moving more and more away from items that just provide stats. Every item now has a fun and interesting unique passive or active. Meanwhile, Viktor is lashed to his huge AP stat stick. This is coming from a long-time Viktor player, btw. I have 250k mastery on him, and I've been playing him very avidly since season 3, way before his rework. I consider myself a very dedicated fan of the champ, and I don't really enjoy the hexcore system, and I can't imagine how any person could. It's one of the only passives in the game that feels like a limitation more than a strength.
Biotic (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=webstar1995,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=H5NgmcV9,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-04T15:23:19.682+0000) > > Viktor is my favorite champ. > lvl7 > I thought he was going to be super good again, which he was, for ONE PATCH! When > {{champion:112}} {{summoner:6}} {{summoner:4}} (fleetfoot work) > {{item:3198}} {{item:3025}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3151}} {{item:3158}} was very strong. > Then the changes came. Luden's is not great on him. You cannot really build tear because his Hex item is a MUST and tear would take too long to scale. Lich Bane is good, but he is lacking overall. > Sad really. I was so excited for a week. Now its back to me just having to outplay like a god to beat champs like Lux. youre basically not allowed to use a sorcery keystone. I miss thunderlords
I do ok with Aerie. It's not amazing, but it's free damage. It's pretty strong against other squishy mages who don't have sustain, since his E is basically impossible to miss. If you have blue buff, you can actually poke a lot of other mages out of lane. Electrocute is also actually very good on him IMO. The problem is that the rest of the domination tree doesn't really complement his kit very well, whereas the rest of sorcery is quite strong, and really helps him get through lane. Still, I would rather have electrocute outside of lane than any other mastery.
: Is Riot out of their mind?
Honestly, I don't have strong opinions about Twitch's overall balance, but his kit is super frustrating to play against. "Long range/AoE team fighting marksmen" and "stealth ambush marksmen" are both completely fine niches to give a champion. But I don't think they should overlap. If you are going to give an ADC long-term stealth, and let them sneak around and assassinate people, they should have the limitations that typically come with strategic-level stealth: single target damage and low range. On the flipside, if he going to continue to be able to melt my entire team in a matter of seconds with his ultimate, I should at least be able to tell where he is before he pops it. Or, at the very least, if he is going to have both of these mechanics, I feel like Riot needs to find a way to reduce his burst. If he is going to pop out of stealth from outside my range, I should have at least a second or two to respond before I die. Give his ult a damage ramp up, or give him an ashe-like crit mechanic where he has to fire at a target at least twice before he starts critting. Right now, late game, he can just hop out of stealth and 3-hit your entire backline (while also melting your front-line to boot). There is literally no other champion in the game I feel as powerless against late game.
: {{champion:112}} has a TERRIBLE win rate so there's defiantly something wrong. No matter what peoples opinions of him are. He needs something to make him relevant again. {{champion:202}} has a terrible win rate with a busted {{item:3124}} and people are up in arms about him. No body seems to care about {{champion:112}} even tho the 2 have a very similar design. (sound, art, etc etc). Both have a very modern style that makes them appealing to people.
Honestly, I don't think he's as bad as the boards and reddit were making him out to be, at least not in low/mid ELO. I don't think he's a particularly hard champion to play once you are familiar with him, but he definitely has some unique mechanics that take some getting used to, which I think partially explains his low win rate. But I do think he needs a little bit of love. His late game is A-OK, but I would be very happy to see a small buff to his early game. Personally, I think a partial revert to his E (reduce the vector speed, increase the upfront damage, reduce the aftershock and overall damage) would make him healthier and give him a bit more individual skill expression. I'd be very excited to see that.
: Riot is so hesitant to buff Viktor; they leave him trash tier for over a year and then give him a pretty meh buff while they overbuff Kai'sa after they consider her weak for one patch. Riot even reverted some of his PBE buffs as his ult was supposed to do more damage and his E will have a lower cooldown. Viktor mains have been asking this for ages and that is to either revert the E delay or lower the cost of the Hexcore. If Riot doesn't want to do that then lower the mana cost on E at early levels because that thing eats up mana like a monster. I mean if late game teamfighting champs {{champion:61}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:268}} {{champion:69}} can have safe/good early games then I see no reason why Viktor has to have a weak early game. Hell, even in late game Viktor still has to get up close to the enemy to unleash his spells while most teamfighting mages can sit at a pretty safe distance and can still impact the teamfight well. -200k mastery points Viktor main
I'm at about 225k mastery myself ;) But ya, this is essentially my argument. I agree with everything you said. Viktor has a very good late game, but he gets punished for it more than other champions seem to. If Riot wants late game champions to have incredibly vulnerable early games, then why does Azir get to straight up dumpster me in lane?
: {{item:3048}} {{item:3198}} {{item:3048}} {{item:3222}} {{item:3048}} {{item:3009}}
When the mage item rework was on PBE, I saw a lot of people theorycrafting that seraphs would be good on Viktor, but seriously, when do you build it? Viktor's early game is already really bad until he finishes {{item:3197}}. Even then, he's not particularly strong in skirmishes, he can just trade well with his shield. Building a third scaling item that offers no real immediate stats just sounds impossible in most games. I mean, if you are laning against a super passive opponent, and the jungler isn't pressuring you at all, and your team doesn't need you in skirmishes, maybe you can be greedy and grab the tear on your first back. But you're just delaying your power spike even more. I think I'd rather have the earlier power spike of {{item:3197}} -> {{item:3100}} . Though, to be fair, I haven't really experimented with seraphs. I should at least give it a try before I write it off.
: It honestly feels like Viktor isn't really "weak", so much as he is gated. He's gated by mana, he's gated by gold and he's gated by his augment's scaling mechanisms. And if you play him a lot, you probably know what I"ll say next, already -- it's *really* hard to get yourself into a genuinely bad matchup. His shield wins trades, his stun punishes ganks, his E clears waves. He's vicious. He can bully. He can carry. He can solo-lane. **But he's gated.** * If you bully, your mana runs dry - you have to supplement your poke with lots of autos. * If you try to passively farm, you can easily come out behind - your E doesn't clear until you buy yourself an augment, and - as above - comes with exorbitant mana costs. * If you build for late, you're building against common sense - most matches are over by around 30 minutes. **Is it really any wonder Viktor's struggling to find his niche in this meta?** The mage item changes are good. They did a lot for his mid-game, and synergise well with his shield. But as you point out above, he generally has to wait longer to get them. I mean, Vik's Augment rocks when fully upgraded - there's no doubt about it - but we're talking a scaling item TIED to his abilities with a stat value and cost **comparable to an archangel's staff** (sans the 20% cdr). This IS an issue. Vik's augment (or its effects) **needs** an extra _something_ to it. Stronger stats? Better utility? Something else entirely? He moves slowly, his abilities all have significant delays on their effects and - to top it off - come lategame - there are other champions that will out-scale him despite all the sacrifices he makes to have his mega kit. He NEEDS something. Not necessarily a *huge* something, but definitely something. He's supposed to evolve to fit his circumstance - not struggle early so he can maximise burst potential later. :P
>it's really hard to get yourself into a genuinely bad matchup. I agree with quite a bit of what you said, but not this part. Viktor has a lot of pretty bad match-ups in my opinion. I'll list my least favorite match-ups in ascending order: First, there are a lot of champions who straight-up outrange him. Like, Lux, Xerath, Ziggs. You can do ok in lane, but it's still a bad match-up, and the range difference becomes pretty impactful in the mid/late game. {{champion:34}} wins trades with him at basically every point post-6, she also scales super hard, and she's very good at zoning him out of team fights. Plus she's much safer. Again, not unwinnable by any stretch, but I do feel like I'm at a significant disadvantage at most stages of the game if we have equal gold. Aggressive {{champion:61}} will absolutely annihilate viktor in lane. Her poke/zoning with the new AP items is just insane. Really, really hard match-up, although it gets a bit better after laning phase ends. {{champion:105}} just straight up dumpsters viktor. Fizz can pretty much guarantee kill Viktor at any point post-6 if he lands the fish. He can literally tower dive you if you are at full health sitting under your tower.
: Sorry but the idea that it was not necessary in the past is some kind of fantasy. It's always been necessary. Champs that lacked waveclear in past seasons were bad in mid. For example, old Galio was not viable because his mana costs were too high. The best mids have always had good waveclear. Adding waveclear to more champs has brought more champs to mid. Howerver Taliyah and Ryze are examples of power creep because they took over TF's role without any of his weaknesses. But that is just a balance issue with those champs specifically, and also has to do with the fact that RIot hates TF.
I agree that waveclear has always been necessary, especially in competitive, but the amount of waveclear that meets the baseline requirement has absolutely gone up. And it's also bled over into regular games way more than it used to. Again, champions like TF, Anivia, and Ziggs used to be anomalies in terms of their waveclear, and they were picked specifically for this strength. I would say that this level of waveclear is now basically the norm for champions being picked mid lane. The idea isn't that "waveclear shouldn't be a strength/weakness for any given champion." Of course it should be. The idea is that there shouldn't be 20 midlaners who can all 1-hit the entire wave from level 9 onwards. It leads to a lack of interactivity. And it also really shoves out all other champions who can't do that, even in low-mid ELO (where waveclear historically hasn't been as absolutely essential). If it was just a little bit harder for champions to 1-hit waves, you would create more time for other kinds of champions to flex their strengths in lanes. I mean, let me just ask you this: do you think it's true that waveclear is higher now than it was 3 seasons ago? And do you agree that higher waveclear means less interaction between champions in lane?
Rioter Comments
: Tired of this attitude: "This thing is strategically important, thus it should be nerfed/changed"
>For example, saying that waveclear on midlaners needs to be nerfed or waveclear should be less important for mid... Look I get that the game needs to change and new stuff needs to be added over time, but there is no reason to change the basic fundamentals of the game. I don't have the quote in front of me, but I feel like Riot was saying that waveclear has an inflated importance right now in mid lane because it has creeped so much over the seasons. It's gone from being a special strength to a baseline requirement for any champion trying to lane. Riot has been leaning super heavily on waveclear as a way to fix underperforming champions, or smooth out overperforming champions. Like, they gave the assassin champions ({{champion:91}} {{champion:7}}) ridiculous waveclear so that they would be able to shove and roam. Ryze rework gave him more reliable waveclear. To try to lure brand back to midlane, Riot gave him mana back on E so he could waveclear more easily. They just buffed ludens so more champions could use it. They introduced minion dematerializer to help champs out with waveclear. Vlad and Malz reworks both got arguably more waveclear than they even used to have (though they always had a lot). Galio rework has ridiculous waveclear. They've also introduced lots of champions that have insane waveclear. The roaming mids {{champion:136}} and {{champion:163}} both have ridiculous waveclear for the same reasons the assassins do (and both have unsurprisingly seen quite a bit of pro play since their release). So, we have a mid-lane environment where waveclear isn't a unique strength anymore. It's an absolute necessity to be able to function on a basic level, because you are basically guaranteed to be going up against another champion who can 1 hit the waves. And, if you are completely outclassed in wave-clear, it is really hard to leverage any of your other strengths. You can't roam if you're constantly shoved into tower. You can't trade if you're constantly shoved into tower. It's very hard to poke or all-in if you are constantly shoved into tower. Etc. So, I don't think Riot wants to make wave-clear not an important strength for certain champions. But, if they reduce waveclear across the board, you create more time in lane where both champs are in their waves, which gives players chances to trade more, all in, poke, assassinate, etc. Instead of the current situation, where everyone just wipes out the wave in 2 seconds then either roams or runs back to tower and waits for the next wave.
GripaAviara (EUNE)
: When will Fizz be nerfed?
IMO, part of the problem with Fizz is that his kit just doesn't have all that much counterplay in lane. If his numbers are high enough for him to 1-hit someone, he can repeatedly do it basically every time his ultimate is off cooldown, even if the target is under tower. But if he can't 1-hit people, he can't really do his job. I feel like there should be something I can do to respond to Fizz once I've been hit by his ult. Right now, I'm literally just sitting there waiting to die, since the entire rest of his kit is basically undodgeable, and can 1-hit almost anyone other mid in the game. Riot could give the E more visual clarity, and lower the speed or hitbox or something, so that players have a real shot of avoiding it (without flash). Or Riot could lower the hitbox or projectile speed on the ult itself, because it really is very easy to land at the moment. If the ability is going to continue being this much of a death sentence, Riot should probably give dashless champions a fair shot at dodging it. I mean, as much as players hate Zed, Death Mark is a good analogy. It's a very scary ability, and Zed can absolutely snowball in lane. But it does feel like you at least are still playing the game when you see the X come down on you. You're not just seeing there waiting for the end. You can still outplay Zed through his ult.
: So riot will nerf supports and junglers first but not adcs ?
ADC survivability has a large indirect impact on the class's DPS. When ADCs are able to survive longer, they are able to position more aggressively and string together more auto attacks on higher priority targets. Because they're a DPS class, a few extra seconds of survivability could mean a LOT of extra damage. Also, lifesteal compounds marksmen survivability. In the time it takes to burn through a janna shield, the ADC might have gained quite a bit of health back. This is all to say that nerfing supports will have a large impact on effective ADC DPS. When you think about the metas where ADC has been MOST oppressive, it has almost always been when they are too survivable. Like, when all ADCs were stacking maw and steracks. When all ADCs were getting Targons. The height of the Ardent meta, where shields and heals were incredibly prevalent and strong. Etc. I do think there are some other areas where ADCs could stand to take a hit. Like, maybe all the price reductions to the crit line make their late-game builds activate too early. Maybe Riot needs to look at static shiv and RFC (especially when they are stacked together). But, by going after supports, Riot is indirectly going after ADCs as well. They aren't ignoring the issue.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 21
Hey Meddler, thanks for doing these, they're always super informative and interesting. It's been a few weeks since Viktor's buffs dropped, and I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on him, both in terms of numerical power and game health. The buffs feel very good to me; I love that they reward aggressive use of the Q. I've seen a pretty substantial increase on my winrate since they dropped, and he no longer feels weak to me in terms of numerical power. I'm concerned, however, that if the AP itemization changes help push Viktor into the meta again, his insane wave clear is going to force another round of nasty nerfs. I get that safe wave clear/stalling aren't healthy strengths for a hyper carry. Does Riot have any thoughts or plans on shifting around E's power to address this specific issue without putting him in a bad spot again? Personally, I would be really excited to see a partial revert on death ray: revert the vector speed, increase the upfront damage, reduce total damage. This would reduce his wave clear and give him back more agency over his own performance (though I understand that this would increase his burst, which has been problematic in the past). I guess I'll close by just throwing in my two cents on Viktor in general: I've been playing him since S3. Aggressive positioning and high risk/high reward burst has always been what's drawn me to the champion. Insane waveclear has never felt like a core strength to me (though obviously it's important at the moment to making it through his early game). I would even be happy for a brute force approach--laser deals less damage to minions--if it means preserving or even buffing the parts of Viktor that are fun and rewarding to use. I would also, in general, be really excited to see Viktor regain a little bit more agency over his own performance. Right now, it feels like I rely a LOT on enemy mistakes/ally CC to access most of my damage. I think this is a fine archetype for a champion, but it was never Viktor's identity before the rework, and, to me, it feels like his kit has just swung too far in that direction. Thanks again for taking the time to do these!
: Isn't Trist's safety one of her defining strengths among ADC, though? When you said "sharpen a weakness", that's definitely NOT how I understood it, I thought that her safety would remain. So what do Riot consider as her defining strength?
Trist was always the safe ADC. Then her rework made her the "siege specialist/pushing" adc without nerfing her safety. RIght now, it feels like she's split between these two identities. If she's supposed to be the safe adc with good self-peel, I'm not sure she needs resets, early game burst, and her satchel charge bomb on turrets. Not saying she shouldn't have any of things--only that these are all significant strengths she has, which don't seem core to this identity. If she's supposed to be the hyper pushing ADC who melts waves and crushes towers, I'm not sure that she should have so much self peel (ie jump that can cancel CC, super long range, huge knockback ult). There's a lot of cool stuff in her kit. Riot just needs to pick what, exactly, her core strengths should be, so they can double down on those and trim away some of her other stuff. I think Azir is a good comparison. He also had very long range, very high sustained damage, mobility, and a big knockback. Basically, a hyper carry who was too hard to punish. So Riot nerfed his range and doubled down on his other strengths. I don't know that they've been totally successful (he was pretty overtuned for a while after) but I think the logic was good, and that he'll be easier to balance moving forward.
: Reminder that AD get grievous wounds for 800g tanks for 1000g and Mages have to pay 3000 gold
Of the three (bramble, morello, EC) the effect is arguably the strongest on morello, since AP mages generally have the most access to AoE. It will be very easy for someone like {{champion:63}} {{champion:112}} {{champion:61}} {{champion:115}} to apply the debuff to entire teams. Also, let's be honest, it's not like the game needs more grievous wounds.
Potchikir (EUW)
: then why does {{champion:110}} build {{item:3124}}
Because he has extremely long range and can easily stack it. OP should have included Varus in his list of champs that can use it, but his point is that it's too hard for most melees to stack.
: The only champion that uses it that I feel is pretty strong is Katarina. I'm not sure what's with all the talk on akali lately, everytime I check her winrate is sub 50 percent.
I don't necessarily know that she's overpowered. I was just surprised to hear Scarra name her as one of the three viable assassins right now (I think in his recent patch rundown?). Normally she's considered a pub stomper who isn't particularly strong in higher ELOs.
: Can we talk about Viktor and Viktor changes? @Meddler
The E change was puzzling from the get-go. Riot has said that they think Viktor has too much waveclear. Reducing E cooldown gives him even more. The Q and ult changes make much more sense to me. As a very avid Viktor player who hasn't found a ton of success with him this season, I'm excited to try them out. I'm fine with Riot approaching him conservatively, given how dominant he can be when his numbers get overtuned. Literally doubling his shield seems like a pretty big buff to me. And it'll certainly be nice to get some burst back on his R.
: Zac, Swain, Aatrox are ability based heals. Mundo is an increase to healthregen. If they change it it will affect all health regens giving laners more sustain and making lanephase even more boring.
They could also just change Mundo's ult (and maybe passive) to a heal over time. Not that Mundo really needs a buff IMO. But I do think that would be less confusing. Until I read this thread, I always assumed mundo benefited from that rune.
wildfox99 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=doubleguac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAeMVgiy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-01T18:44:24.723+0000) > > I really like your 1st and 4th suggestions. I was also thinking that one of the following changes would free up some of her power budget for more damage: > > 1) Increase Q mana cost a bit > It feels like she can spam this ability very hard. this because is the ONLY ability that she can use in lane,her W and E are useless so she will use only her Q this ability already have an high mana cost (85),her E as well burns lots of mana (85 as well) when she have one of the lowest base mana pool between all mages,it'd be too much >She definitely has above average waveclear not true,she have less wave clear than other mages (stuff like orianna and syndra can clear it in 0.5 sec if played in the right way),she just push a lot since her Q will hit the whole wave and her base AS is higher so she will push whit autos faster than average of mids >Her play pattern of perma-shoving the wave and fishing for E's can be pretty frustrating, especially because her ult/Q make it very hard to punish her for overextending. her ult have a 110 sec CD so if she use it she's giving up mobility,damage and kill pressure,her problem is her Q movment speed that doesn't allow her opponent to punish her for a bad ult
You have good points about the mana cost on Q. I'd like to push back on a couple of your arguments, though: >not true,she have less wave clear than other mages (stuff like orianna and syndra can clear it in 0.5 sec if played in the right way),she just push a lot since her Q will hit the whole wave and her base AS is higher so she will push whit autos faster than average of mids I'm not sure I understand what you are say here. I was saying "ahri pushes pretty fast" and your response was, "no she doesn't, she just pushes fast because she hits the entire wave and has a high AS." Yes, those are the reasons she pushes fast. >her ult have a 110 sec CD so if she use it she's giving up mobility,damage and kill pressure,her problem is her Q movmente speed that doesn't allow her opponent to punish her for a bad ult Again, I'm not sure what you're arguing here. My point was that it is very hard to punish an Ahri for overextending. Yes, she's "punished" in the sense that now her ult is on cooldown. But most champions die if they overextend.
: Comprehensive list of League of Legends Champions that have never been a serious balance issue:
I think this is a little oversimplified. You need to distinguish between a champion being unbalanced and a champion being difficult to balance. Every champion has gone through highs and lows, and every champion has had issues with their numbers at some point. But there are definitely champions who haven't been long-term balance issues. It's easy to fix a champion who is just numerically over- or under-tuned. CT's champions tend to have issues with their kits that are harder to solve. For the record, I'm not just trying to shit on CT. I think he's super creative and has come up with some very interesting designs. But I think anyone has to admit that his champions tend to show up in the patch notes more than average.
: Can we nerf ahri's safety/consistency to give her damage that does more than tickle
I really like your 1st and 4th suggestions. I was also thinking that one of the following changes would free up some of her power budget for more damage: 1) Increase Q mana cost a bit It feels like she can spam this ability very hard. She definitely has above average waveclear. She also has a lot of kill threat against someone under tower. Her play pattern of perma-shoving the wave and fishing for E's can be pretty frustrating, especially because her ult/Q make it very hard to punish her for overextending. Increasing the mana cost would force her to choose a bit more between shoving and harassing. 2) rework her passive Ahri has very clear win conditions in lane (harass with Q, fish for E, all in as soon as you hit it). On the other hand, I often have no idea what my win conditions against her are supposed to be. She's difficult to all-in unless her ult and flash are down. She has good waveclear. And, on top of that, she has quite a bit of built-in sustain. Altogether, you end up with a champion who is very hard to fall behind with, but who can quickly gain a lead by landing just one E. Ahri is an all-in champion. I feel that poke should be a viable counter/response to a champion like her. I don't think there's any reason for her to have sustain. It's thematic, but it doesn't make any sense from a gameplay perspective. Switch it out for some kind of damage passive that encourages her to take more risks.
Rioter Comments
Leetri (EUW)
: 99,6% of the playerbase is either unranked, bronze, silver or gold. "High elo" isn't even the 1%, it's the 0,4%. Kinda insignificant if you put it that way.
W/e, you get the point. People are way too quick to throw most of the playerbase under the bus.
: > [{quoted}](name=toxicity creep,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zxIKsQhe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-30T23:00:44.262+0000) > > No we can't have Darius beeing Viable. Low elo's are gonna cry. > > Give us more Lux skin and Zoe buffs riot that's what the community wants. Let those fuckers cry, i am getting sick of them bitching about some champs being tough to beat in low elo. I had to deal with that shit too as have many other players. if they want an easy game, then fine, let them ruin X class and balancing because of it. But League is also about learning from your mistakes so that you don't end up feeding and improve your win rate. We all get burned in Elo hell but some can handle the heat and rise up in MMR.
>Let those fuckers cry, i am getting sick of them bitching about some champs being tough to beat in low elo. The vast majority of the playerbase is gold and below. It's not at all crazy to expect Riot to try to balance the game for most of their players. I understand that pro level balance should be the priority. And obviously balance is most sensitive at that level. But, if balancing a champion for the bottom 90% of players means the top 3% of players won't be able to use them in ranked... I just don't know that that's a bad trade-off. BTW, not saying I want Darius to be guttered or something. I have no problem with Darius. I'm just talking in the abstract.
Sanngriðr (EUNE)
: Or Ornn. Or Ivern. Or any champ after 2016 lel
> [{quoted}](name=toxicity creep,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Ek3E7adt,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-01-30T14:18:13.000+0000) > > Or Ornn. Or Ivern. Or any champ after 2016 lel I love Ivern! Also, Ornn is a good champ, he's just been overtuned for a while. Riot has done a great job on most of the recent champions and reworks. I agree Zoe is annoying as hell though.
: When you say you don't think the long-ranged utility or displacement are appropriate for him, is it because of how Swain used to play? In regards to Zoe, I think her problem is that she's built around landing one damage packed spell. That kind of design can be fun to play at first, but it gets old fast and rarely feels good to play against. There's no real variation in her kit. I hope that's the last time Riot makes a champ (especially a mage) like that.
To me, displacement is fine for him to have on his kit. The long range feels out of place to me. He's otherwise a low range, sustained damage drain mage. Having this semi-global delayed damage nuke/vision doesn't seem to otherwise mesh with his playstyle or core strengths. It feels like it was added more for thematic reason (See guys! He is a tactician!) than for gameplay or kit cohesion. Granted, I haven't played him yet. Maybe after I try him, it will make more sense to me.
: Nerf Vayne to oblivion or just delete her...
People have very selective memories. Vayne has absolutely spent time out of the meta in the past few years. ADCs tend to cycle very quickly in the meta. Vayne has some terrible lane matchups. She tends to fall heavily out of favor when her lane counters are strong and popular. Targons/overheal was a free pass through the laning phase. She got heavy late game nerfs on top of nerfs to the item that was letting her coast through the early game. Let's wait to see where she falls out before calling for further nerfs.
: Please define "bruiser," because it can mean a lot of different things.
Champs that build a mix of offense and defense. Mostly sustained damage. Need to be tanky to stay in a fight; need damage, because they don't contribute a lot of team CC or utility. Often rush a black cleaver, triforce, or titanic hydra. Historically, they've been strong duelist and laners who peak in the early/mid game and fall off late. Using Riot labels, I'd say "brusiers" includes most of the juggernauts, as well as the heavier fighters. I think of these as quintessentially bruisers: {{champion:122}} {{champion:420}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:240}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:2}} {{champion:102}} {{champion:48}} {{champion:106}} {{champion:19}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:83}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:86}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:254}} {{champion:266}} These are some champs that I would consider being sort of on the edge of bruiser, but not quite: {{champion:114}} {{champion:36}} {{champion:59}} {{champion:64}} {{champion:56}} {{champion:80}}
: > Who knows though, maybe he does have just as much insta-burst, and Riot is just being hypocritical. Yeah, well If you want to consider the point underrated, I would really expect people to actually point out how is Evelyn's kit, especially the new one, more bursty than Rengar with old Q. Why does he deserve to have options of both burst and sustained damage. And that is even ignoring that AD is stat that works as both burst and sustained damage, not "better" as sustained damage, since a lot of AD Assasins have ratios that it's just burst and nothing else, except they can also point-click you with sustained 100%AD physical damage. AP is only sustained on DoT champs (which may be getting removed, as Swain, for example, is getting moved more towards burst), other than that it's bursty stat that occasionally helps with utility.
Champs with hybrid ratios can jerry-rig together very silly burst builds by buying both AP and AD items that give extra damage (lichbane, drakthar, gunblade, even ludens, etc.). I don't know why Riot took away Eve's AD ratios. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was mainly out of a desire to prevent her from building hybrid burst. If Eve had decent hybrid ratios, I think it's pretty realistic to imagine that she might be able to instagib without her charm. The charm timer is necessary counterplay to her perma-invisibility. Rengar's stealth is more limited, and has slightly more counterplay.
: an idea for a buff for omen
Are you saying that it reduces the enemies chance to crit you? Or that it gives you a dodge chance against crits? Either way, it seems extremely broken. Omen is already one of the best defensive items in the game. If it reduced enemy crit chance by 60%, it would be insanely broken.
Ralanr (NA)
: From my understanding, his AP is only on his W. With Eve, they wanted to balance her around her burst playstyle and an AD build is better for sustained damage.
>With Eve, they wanted to balance her around her burst playstyle and an AD build is better for sustained damage. This is an underrated point. Eve is one of the burstiest champions in the game right now (or, at least, she was pre-nerf). Giving her hybrid ratios not only gives her access to more sustained DPS. It also gives her access to even more low-counterplay instant burst (via gunblade and duskblade). Eve doesn't need or deserve access to those items. Straight AP is better suited and balanced for her niche--straight burst. Maybe with Rengar, they are trying to give players a choice between a burstier style and a more sustained, fighter style (both of which have historically been supported on Rengar). If he has less innate insta-burst, hybrid build paths aren't as problematic on him anyways. Who knows though, maybe he does have just as much insta-burst, and Riot is just being hypocritical.
: Because early game cheesing ADCs were too dominate with an expensive IE. An expensive, higher power IE just makes adcs broken late game and unfun to fight.
>I feel like Riot buffed the hell out of crit items because crit builds were taking too long to "activate," and so everyone was going on-hit or lethality. But crit is supposed to be a late game build, so buffing it until people are able to rush into their crit power spike isn't a healthy solution; it creates other problems. Did you read what I posted? I acknowledged that this is why they reduced the price. What I'm questioning is whether reducing IE's cost is a good, healthy solution to that (real) problem. Just to reiterate: the problem is that lane bullies who built lethality were too oppressive for any crit marksmen to find success. Riot's solution was to give crit marksmen a way earlier spike. I'm suggesting that crit marksmen are supposed to have a late spike, and are spiking too early right now because of cheap crit items. Maybe Riot needs to address the bullies or the effectiveness of the alternative (lethality and on-hit) builds instead of just speeding up all marksmen itemization. It's classic power creep. Instead of nerfing the dominant strategy, they buffed the weaker one. Which is fine, sometimes. But I think marksmen, at this point, have just been overbuffed across the board because Riot keeps pursuing this strategy.
Uni3489 (NA)
: Every champ needs a safe skill. And now, Ornn doesn't have one. Like Maokai's Q, or other tanks with their skills that they need to have to do what they need to do.
Tell that to {{champion:14}} lol. Seriously, though, I don't think Ornn needs unstoppable force, but I am surprised that this is the way they decided to nerf him. The problem is that his W gives him a large shield plus a crapload of %health damage on a short cooldown, which makes him extremely hard for melees to trade with. Even if you CC Ornn, he's not going to stop breathing fire. This will make him maybe slightly less oppressive to lane against, but I would have rather see them move the shield onto his E, or just reduce the % health damage on his W.
: Let's talk about Champions - Nunu
The buffs were very large. People should wait and see how they pan out before complaining. He's got even more utility now... 40% AP (up to 140) is a LOT of raw stats to give your fed mid. it's going to be nuts on the few champions (Azir, teemo, kog) who actually benefit from both the AP and atk speed. Plus the magic damage on hit, while it doesn't look that crazy, will give him better clear times and slightly stronger presence in early game ganks/counter ganks. It's connected to his Q, too... which means that Nunu accesses a little PvP damage through this skill, so he doesn't completely gimp himself in skirmishes by leveling Q first.
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doubleguac

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