Tentaku (EUNE)
: Thing is, battlemage/enchanter identities are extremely conflicting - though it is not obvious at first sight. Enchanter weaknesses are being weak at 1v1, extremely squishy and providing almost no threat on their own. Battle Mage strengths are polar opposite of that - 1v1 beasts, hard to kill and biggest teamfighting threat on the team until lategame (or in some cases, biggest threat on the team period). Because properties of those classes "cancel" each other out, creating a hybrid between them leads to a mess - which is why both old and new {{champion:43}} iterations were always problematic. Now, it is probably not impossible to create a balancable kit that has properties of both those classes, it's just very hard. Because natural weaknesses of the playstyle are not achievable, it would require artificially "injecting" weaknesses into the kit, i.e. massive delays, hard to land skillshots, extremely poor early game etc.
I disagree on enchanters necessarily being easy to kill 1v1. It's about 50/50. {{champion:117}} , {{champion:40}} , {{champion:497}} and {{champion:44}} (hybrid vanguard) are not easy to kill. The former's are queens of disengage and the hybrids are just straight up semi-tanky. I'd also include current {{champion:43}} in this list since she has E and RW. (maybe also {{champion:432}} in this category if he counts) {{champion:16}} , {{champion:37}} , {{champion:267}} and {{champion:350}} (not attached, but really when is she ever gonna be alone) probably fit closet to what you are talking about. But yeah, it's not a general rule for enchanters to be easy to kill 1v1. Being more team-reliant is more true as a general rule for enchanters, but again Karma as a hybrid mage class is already breaking that mold. I'd also argue that both Rakan and Taric also are hard to kill and are disruptors in team-fights. (though not necessarily 1v1 beasts) Should also note some battle mages already go bot. {{champion:50}} isn't necessarily meta, but not too uncommon either. though he of course played more of a catcher and semi-tank. Unless you straight up make Karma an enchanter with no ability to 1v1, this is always going to run counter to the 'guidelines' to enchanter's typical weaknesses. I don't think it's necessarily difficult to make her balanced, as SilverSquid states you just need to give her the choice to use her abilities selfishly or supporitively. The suggestion I gave for a revised Q, for example, means she is either heals herself or an ally. That's one way you could balance out her abilities as a hybrid class.
: Solving the Karma Subclass Chaos
I agree with what seems like the main consensus here in that Karma should probably be a battle mage/enchanter hybrid. I'd keep her ability to sustain herself _(but scaling with AP)_, shield, and ms but drop her **_range_ **significantly so she needs to put herself in danger to be effective as well as nerf or overhaul her passive cd ult mechanic. Most battle mages have reduced range on their core damage moves * {{champion:50}} 850/750 * {{champion:8}} 600/700 * {{champion:136}} 650+ * {{champion:13}} 1000/600 Outside of Ryze, they are all under 850 range, but even he needs to get closer to deal his full combo; so I think Karma should stray closer to this aspect. If anything, I think her Q should be wider but shorter ala original Karma. ~~perhaps an almost fan-like cone~~ *cough* To offset this, perhaps her Q could go back to healing Karma with a few second delay, which maybe she can then choose to use on herself or give to her ally after 1 or 2 seconds with W or E. Further cementing her enchanter status ala Soraka, Nami and Rakan. To be fair, support/enchanter Karma already does this once she gets Athene, so I'd double down this aspect. I'd also appreciate it better that each of her abilities, like Senna, should have a enchanter and damage component. Lots of people have given ideas for this (including RQ healing zone, RW resistances, RE shieldbomb) which I think work well enough. I wouldn't mind losing out on some CC as well, as I don't think people pick Karma for her strong CC anyway; she should only have enough to be able to kite effectively and keep up her harass, that's pretty much it. But yeah, I'd basically exchange her burst mage and tank/warden-lite identities for a truer battle mage and enchanter identity.
: Q - dont mess with resources a simple slow will work
> [{quoted}](name=FlameHalbrdOkido,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IbidzvcM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-10-29T23:58:20.919+0000) > > Q - dont mess with resources a simple slow will work I was actually gonna comment that it would be a unique niche. Do we have any champions that can interact with resources in this way? It could be something interesting to explore. (I know Soraka could generate mana but decreasing it is a bit different) ----- In terms of the feedback, I like the basic concept and certain ideas like the q one above and the splitting of ms and shield strength to different builds or roles, but think it should perhaps be simplified a bit. I'm not sure R should be shifting between roles, it could just as easily be an inherent mechanic or new passive for Karma to bolster or enhance her next attack depending on what ability you are using somewhat akin to Sona. I think someone mentioned in SilverSquid's thread, but something like Qs drain strength and can bolster Karma's shield strength and blocked E damage turns into augmented Q damage. Alternatively W could feed into itself to increase next root or healing effects. Or it could be split into entirely different ways, maybe Qs enhances cc by a slight amount, while W increases shields, etc... Not a perfect summery of what was suggested, but basically I like something _Karmic_ to be core to her design. I think the duality is expressed well in your rework diea, but not so much karma.
: What Do YOU Want Karma to Become?
The only part of karma's gameplay that I'd like to keep is her shield + ms (ideally with shieldbomb). Everything else can change as far as I'm concerned. So with that in mind in order of most interested to least Mixture (though probably too unrealistic imo) Twin Dragons 3.5 Shield-bomb Fans Battle Mage ... Simple QoL
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 15
I agree with the team that the W they had planned didn't fit Karma. An ability that reduces CDs and a new passive that allows them to spot allies **_timed _**abilities fits Zilean way more than a champion about spirit, balance and duality. As for changing her passive, if it's two store charges of Mantra to use in quick succession then have an internal cd on the ability instead of allowing 3-4 mantras in a teamfight like pro-players do atm than that's fine. Though that seems like a nerf, so maybe putting power back into other aspects of her kit that wouldn't affect pro play as much. It's too bad you couldn't make the first iteration of Neurocat's Karma's W work, it'd looked much more fun and actually fit her ie being able to spirit walk ouo. (also, forever wanting shieldbomb)
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 22
I'm glad that {{champion:43}} is being looked at for a buff, it's certainly felt like she's been struggling this last patch. Curious on if there's been on any decisions regarding how they want to buff her and where? Her shield has been the most problematic part of her kit, but I wouldn't exactly say no to a numbers buff (especially since the duration's noticeably shorter now anyway). Also any thoughts to what the team are considering with her larger-scale work?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 16
With Irelia around the corner, any hope that the Karma rework has made some progress? The mini-Karma rework along with some Ionia lore update coming at the same time would be really cool.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 7
Any Karma mini-rework news?
: Oh look, Janna is at 54%~ winrate. Again.
I hope it's kept in mind not *all* enchanters are in a good spot. Karma support is pretty terrible right now, meh early game with the stupid sustain in lane and scales poorly compared to other enchanters. Mage Karma is better but these shield or item nerfs will hurt her as well as she still uses E and RE often and she's only barely decent atm.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 21
Any news on Karma's mini-rework?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 16
Any news on Karma's mini-rework?
Quepha (NA)
: A 'character arc' means an internal change to the character. Varus at the end of his backstory makes a choice that he wouldn't have made at the beginning. The length of his story doesn't matter, he has an arc if he changed. Why do you think I considered that specific sentence to be so very important?
But it's not a real story. It's not developed, it's a skeleton or a concept that isn't fully realized. It's not a arc, but a statement. You can make the argument lengths doesn't matter but even short stories make the restriction of _at least_ a 1,000 words (not characters). This is less than 350, thus closer to a summery and not a story. Unless you're being very loose with what constitutes a story? Like these https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/12/16/143660782/how-short-can-a-very-short-story-be but they seem more like poems honestly.
IDarkIFire (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=dreadnoughtus01,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=KGpYK7PE,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-03T05:06:54.676+0000) > > Yeah, development is key for stories I think. I mean, unless it's a poem but Varus lore isn't that. > > Anyway I don't mean to belittle your feelings, I'm just saying that you grew attached to an idea that maybe had potential but was mostly fueled from imagination and your own ideas on a old concept (not a bad thing), but it wasn't a story Riot actually _told_. I am sorry but that was EXACTLY the story what Riot told, let me quote from the original 2 paragraphs for anyone just reading comments: "The life of an arrow is fleeting, built of nothing but direction and intent." - Varus For his incomparable skill with the bow and his unquestioned sense of honor, Varus was chosen to be the warden of a sacred Ionian temple. The temple was built to contain an ancient pit of corruption so vile that Ionian Elders feared it could envelop the island in darkness. Varus prided himself on his position, as only the most exceptional Ionian warriors were selected for the role. He lived with his family in a nearby village and led a quiet life of disciplined routine until the day the forces of Noxus invaded Ionia. Their shock troops left nothing but death and desolation in their wake, and the temple lay in their path. Varus was forced to make a decision. He was bound by honor to stay and defend the temple, but without him the village's few inhabitants could offer little resistance against the oncoming war machine. Gravely, he chose to fulfill his duty as a warden. The corruption could not be allowed to escape. His arrows sundered the troops who tried to wrest the temple from him that day. However, when he returned to the village, he found that it had been reduced to a smoldering graveyard. Remorse at the sight of his slain family gave way to overwhelming regret, and then to seething hatred. He swore to slaughter every Noxian invader, but first he needed to become stronger. He turned to that which he had sacrificed everything to protect. The pit of corruption would consume him wholly, as a flame devours a wick, but its abominable power would burn within him until he was lost. This was a path from which there could be no return. With grim resolve, he condemned himself to the black flames, feeling malevolent energy bond to his skin...and with it, the promise of ruin. He left, seeking the blood of all Noxians involved with the invasion, a grisly task that eventually led him to the invasion's most infamous perpetrators. " Please point out to me what exaclty in this is NOT the story that i described above and is simply a figment of my imatination?
"Varus's character arc" That part, his lore isn't an arc, it's an exert or two paragraph summery.
Quepha (NA)
: And now you're completely reversing the fundamental choice he made in his grief. I wrote one sentence and you still need more compromise. You were wrong about Varus being generic.
I'm not ignoring anything, Darius wasn't able to make a choice but he was going to make one. And he felt grief. But whatever, I made my points, even if you ignore the clear comparisons their still there. I don't even like Varus new story but it's more unique and has more effort than his old one.
IDarkIFire (EUNE)
: Does it take hundreds of pages of discription for you to find something meaningful for yourself in a given thing/character? All i am saying is it worked for me, as well as a lot of the other old Varus mains. We played him and love the picture those 2 paragraphs paint.
Yeah, development is key for stories I think. I mean, unless it's a poem but Varus lore isn't that. Anyway I don't mean to belittle your feelings, I'm just saying that you grew attached to an idea that maybe had potential but was mostly fueled from imagination and your own ideas on a old concept (not a bad thing), but it wasn't a story Riot actually _told_.
Quepha (NA)
: You're completely ignoring the conflict with duty, the part I told you I care about. If you don't count that then it's not like Varus. If you can't find examples to fit that single sentence I wrote then there aren't other champions like Varus.
Did you ignore me saying New Darius? The one who was sent after his old paramore because she'd raised a resistance and was being forced, by duty, to execute her? That's _not_ a conflict of duty and personal interest? Not to mention the loss of family in that story, the son he didn't know about and seeing his possible daughter kill his not-wife. Loss of family via duty driving the comparison further. The only thing missing in that plot is corruption and darkin, but Darius is entirely motivated by duty, patriotism and pride even against his own interests at times.
Quepha (NA)
: I'm not asking for an exact copy of Varus, just someone who has this one major theme he had that I found very interesting and essential to his character. I wrote exactly one sentence with zero proper nouns and you're complaining that it's simultaneously too generic to care about and also too specific for you to find an example of.
I can make it simpler; losing family and revenge. Also I provided examples, just one's you didn't agree filled the niche.
IDarkIFire (EUNE)
: I will quote something from another post that talks about why the new story was doomed to fail: This is the biggest misstep in the story and why I feel Varus players are so upset: Varus's character arc went from a tragic figure who fell down the mountain and accepted his fate to a character who had fallen but was still going to climb the mountain. There's an air of hope surrounding Varus's character arc that he can find peace and maybe redemption, something completely absent from old Varus. And let's be clear that this has nothing to do with being gay or straight. If you changed Varus's wife to a husband, the story would roughly be the same and the backlash wouldn't be nearly as severe. It's a combination of that as well as the immense story changes that have brought about the ire of many Varus fans. And let's remember: Varus fans are old. Varus fans are people who could have played him since Season 2. This would be like telling Caitlyn fans that her old arc doesn't need closure. It's just a part of a more well-explained expose, but hits the issue right on the head. We Varus fans are old, most indeed (including me) since season 2, and the old lore, albeit simple (since the motive exists since ancient times), strikes a chord with us.
But this isn't something that was ever developed. Again it was two paragraphs, how do you get emotionally attached to two paragraphs? This is less change than a VGU that Galio and other champions have gone through. As for him being an old champion, yeah, but older champions are the one's people most ask for changes. They are not up to date and usually not developed. Varus was/is a step away from being a blank slate. I don't really find his chord unique. Other characters have themes of revenge and corruption, maybe not in the exact way, but definitely present.
Quepha (NA)
: So as far as I can tell your count is currently up to 0?
Only if you're asking for an exact copy instead of his major themes, which are still incredibly generic.
Quepha (NA)
: Which champions lost their family due to choosing duty and then immediately betrayed their duties?
New Darius was kind of was leaning that way before his paramore was killed and it's also much better written. Though he's still with Noxus. As for overlap, Riven has the betrayer aspect covered. Yasou got his family killed but it was pride. Probably more I'm forgetting.
Quepha (NA)
: Riot already admitted they thought it was one of the better pieces of old lore. "Bow user" is not a core element of the story of Val, Kai, and the Darkin, any weapon could be used and the parts people care about (Desperation to save a loved one, multiple entities bound in the same body, fighting dark desires through comfort from a loved one) all remain intact. In fact, as a ranged champion used primarily for sieges, Varus's gameplay is actually a pretty bad fit for a champion that's supposed to be a killer who loves to torment, a silent assassin who closes in on targets makes more sense. Not to mention a complete lack of any mechanics that feel like you're swapping between the multiple personalities fighting for control (similar to how Kindred and Quinn both fail to deliver on their story hook of playing as a duo). No one is acting like there was a ton of content that was associated with old Varus, all they're saying is that they liked what was there and now what was there has been deleted without warning.
One of the better lore that is already present in multiple champions? There wasn't anything unique about losing a family and corruption, even in LoL. What was there was basically non-existent. Maybe they liked what was in their heads, because Riot didn't really have a character really.
MysterQ (NA)
: I don't think anyone is saying they put effort into his old lore. They are simply saying it represented something more to them, and I can understand that sentiment. Despite the new story looking much nicer, I wouldn't say it was developed any better at all. Many readers say they are confused on Valmar vs Kai, etc. So they missed the mark even though they spent a lot of money. Unfortunately, people come in and say the new lore is 'better' mostly imo because it looks nice or has a progressive gayness (sorry to say). I am sure many people do enjoy the new lore. But it is ridiculous to say the old lore sucked compared to the new lore when the old lore was as you said 2 paragaphs, that family and village could have been much more dveloped had RIot chosen to do so.
Represent more how? It's a simple story, a revenge plot that we've seen in media everywhere, even in League! So many characters in LoL have lost families and are corrupted, in both the metaphorical and literal sense. The only thing different about Varus was the darkin implication connection. Heck Darius has his old plot but better developed and in a more complex way! Actually now that I think about, New Varus is a lot more unique actually, so it at least has that going for it, even it is weird as heck.
Quepha (NA)
: Then why didn't they put that effort into the old lore to expand on the elements that were lacking? Then you'd have a story with better production quality AND not piss off fans of the character.
Maybe they didn't like the story? Maybe they had a similar concept (darkin bow user) that would've overlapped with old varus and thus the recton? There's a number of reasons. I just find it funny to act like Riot put time and effort into his old lore, when it's just two paragraphs.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=dreadnoughtus01,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AXFEE29w,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2017-12-03T03:38:50.173+0000) > > Ok this is more than a little ridiculous. His old lore wasn't a novel or that well established. Actually was it even more than a couple of paragraphs of text? > > Like I'd understand if the characters and his family were from a novel or serial comic which took effort to build up and thus players had time to get attached but seriously? A couple of paragraphs... > {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}} his old lore was only two paragraphs, and his OLDER lore removed him joining the "league of legends" part.
So even less than I thought. I get that they changed his identity, as a VERY simplistic concept and story, so why are people freaking out like they radically changed a characters whose had a lot of development? It doesn't make any sense. His story had barely any effort put into it.
: Just going to leave this here for the memories
Ok this is more than a little ridiculous. His old lore wasn't a novel or that well established. Actually was it even more than a couple of paragraphs of text? Like I'd understand if the characters and his family were from a novel or serial comic which took effort to build up and thus players had time to get attached but seriously? A couple of paragraphs... {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}
: The scariest thing about the Varus situation...
I appreciate them introducing a gay character (sort of) but the way they've handled it was very clumsy. The story itself is fine in concept and fun in a weird way, I just think all this backlash could've been avoided if they didn't decide to use Varus which already had his own backstory. I don't get why they chose him specifically either, maybe they thought of the concept of a darkin with a bow but since Varus was already created and sort of similar they decided "meh, old lore, don't care; recton" but they underestimated how much people are resistant to change and how attached they get to old images. Then again, it feels like every time a gay character is revealed there is backlash no matter what. Tracer in Overwatch didn't have an established background that contradicted her being a lesbian and it still turned into a stupid controversy because of fans. Meh whatever. I do want updated lore and don't have a problem with changing and updating storylines (the new Darius stuff is awesome) but I hope they avoid too drastic alterations in the future. If only to avoid situations like this... :/
: What Karma Needs to Get in her Update
If they made RQ ground targeted, it wouldn't need W to combo it reliably. Like Soraka's or Brand's Q. Though it would make her less of a battle-mage... eh, they could add a better W that combos more naturally.
: Despite having the biggest Champion roster, we still seem to have little info on Ionia itself
I wonder if the Irelia VGU and Karma's mini-rework will be around the same time. That'd fit nicely for an Ionian lore update.
: How are you going to push Locket even further away from enchanters? You already made the item scale based on bonus health, the shield itself is just too useful and there's no reason for enchanters to build another item over it. I think enchanters are going to build Locket regardless because they have the gold to get to six items and they don't have another item to build. There are only three healing and shielding items, plus boots and an Eye item. What's the sixth item supposed to be if not Locket? Zeke's Harbinger? Athene's? Do enchanters even build Athene's? The other issue is that instead of nerfing Locket you should probably be looking to improve divers' ability to burst people down. If divers are the only class left that are allowed to burst, they should be effective at it. Divers need their own items. If assassins have the best target access, then divers should have the best damage once they get to the target. Answer this for me, Meddler: If you are giving assassins target access as their primary benefit, what are divers supposed to have that differentiates? What is a diver's identity when compared to assassins now?
Sona, Karma and Lulu can and do build athene's. Nami potentially as well if she's playing more aggressive. Janna and Soraka not so much. I think what Riot are trying to do is make distinct support items. Enchanters have a certain pool and Vanguard/Catchers have another. The problem being is we just don't have much item diversity at the moment so everyone ends up building a lot of the same thing. **Enchanter Items/Builds** Mikeal, Redemption, Athene, Ardent + situational ap/tank items. **Vanguard/Catcher Builds** Locket, Knights Vow, Zeke, Righteous Glory (?) + tank or ap items **Mage Support Item/Builds** FQC + normal ap items With some mixing and matching here and there (Mikeal). It's not bad in theory, but I think Riot should definitely look into expanding the item choice pool before they start carving into too distinct niches for these items.
Adalvar (EUW)
: {{champion:79}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:40}} None of these guys need *VGUs*...they may require *visual updates*, but none of them have the gameplay issues that justify the resource investment that a full *Visual and Gameplay Update* entails.
I agree on the first three but Janna... she's feels unique, but there's a lot of debate on whether her kit is healthy. It's why Riot gave her so many changes last patch. Honestly, she still needs work to make her kit feel more cohesive and more interactive.
: We're discussing Coin adjustments internally, as well as a potential adjustment to Spellthief's. Not sure what will ship, but conversations are being had. Regardless of the outcome of those conversations, it may still be the right thing to do to make some changes to certain enchanters. Over the course of the last few years, a lot has changed about the standards of fairness that modern spells are held to, and defensive spells frequently haven't been held subject to those same standards. Many offensive spells can miss, or have delays or other sources of unreliability to them that make the outcomes behind using them uncertain, or at least give opponents time to react to them occurring. Most defensive spells, on the other hand, are just point and click defensive steroids or health injections of some sort. Reliability isn't necessarily a bad thing; it contributes heavily to a champion being able to do its job consistently. But when characters of high reliability become dominant, it can feel especially hopeless to try to fight them. We see that regularly on offensive-oriented characters, but the same can be true of defensive ones. As such, if or once Ancient Coin is appropriately balanced, it could still be the right thing to do small updates or modernization/fairness passes on some enchanters (or more specifically, to low gameplay defensive spells) to promote more healthy gameplay overall. The implications on the overall flow and cohesiveness of the kit are usually significant in these cases, though, so doing them can be difficult. For what it's worth, there's no scheduled action planned on this front at the moment, but talks around what makes for good enchanter gameplay (both through coin and individual kits) are ones we've been having lately.
Oh? This has me excited, yes, the enchanters basically need a class update even if Riot isn't doing them anymore. Least interactive class in the game, too safe, with boring mechanics. Plus Sona, Soraka and Janna are really old game designs. The best enchanters mechanically are the newest one's. Nami and the hybrid enchanters like Taric/Rakan all feel (relatively) fair and have counter-play.
: > [{quoted}](name=IcebornKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dpwcAMdH,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-30T01:41:55.278+0000) > > Mikael takes up an item slot, has a very long CD and offers no combat stats, like quicksilver. > Again Yasuo is a Skirmisher and plays by different rules. You'd have to define the rules, of where to draw the lines between classes and champs having strong tools like this because it's not like Yasuo is lacking in range or mobility. An RE like this would need a inherent weakness, I wouldn't expect it to work the same way RE works now. For my idea, it'd need an incredibly short window to proc (short of like Blitz silence at .75 secs), so there's counter-play to baiting the cleanse-stun. If it's still too strong, lower the base or scaling shield, though it's already on the low spectrum as far as enchanters go. There's plenty of ways to play around this. > Lol it's not about having "strong utility" per se, its about disregarding intended weaknesses and being broken. A ranged mage/support with a built-in CC cleanse would not be allowed to solo lane, especially not with Karma's average CDs that would be broken. Unless it was locked behind level 6 and very lengthy CD it would not happen, it would be way too strong and way too safe. That's why I say for Karma to have this way too much would have to be sacrificed, and it really wouldn't be worth it, as much as I liked the idea. I think we're imagining two different abilities. An RE with a cleanse as she is now would be broken and unbalanced. But that's not what I'm thinking. An RE with a cleanse-stun without the AoE or without the MS, perhaps with a shorter shield duration (not fond of how long shields stay up anyway in general). Don't forget this is a use of mantra, and while Karma can bring it back up, it's still going to require time. And they may not _exactly_ be cleanses, but Sivir's and Morgana's spell shields botlane almost act like them anyway. As for it not being available at lvl 1, maybe. This is a hypothetical rework scenario, anyway. > Yeah exactly, it's the cheapest exploitable strategy for her, and in co-ordinated play she cannot fail. Her team can, but she can't. Yeah it's probably the unhealthiest part of her kit.
Actually yeah, the 65% tenacity I could live without. Though now that I think about it, it should function differently than Morgana's... the whole point is to move away from overlapping. Maybe instead of magic damage, it absorbs attack damage? There's still other ways to make the shield unique but I don't want to overload.
: > You mentioned Mikeal but tenacity, quicksilver and it's items, even stupid things like Yasou's wind-wall which blocks ult damage let alone cc. Peel in general can and does interrupt enemy cc or dive's as well. Mikael takes up an item slot, has a very long CD and offers no combat stats, like quicksilver. Again Yasuo is a Skirmisher and plays by different rules. > Poppy is allowed to support and her w may not act as a cleanse, but it also completely shuts down dives. I don't think it's a hard and fast rule about offering strong utility and not being allowed to solo lane, it's all about balance. I don't think her being range automatically changes that. Lol it's not about having "strong utility" per se, its about disregarding intended weaknesses and being broken. A ranged mage/support with a built-in CC cleanse would not be allowed to solo lane, especially not with Karma's average CDs that would be broken. Unless it was locked behind level 6 and very lengthy CD it would not happen, it would be way too strong and way too safe. That's why I say for Karma to have this way too much would have to be sacrificed, and it really wouldn't be worth it, as much as I liked the idea. > It's why she's picked in LCS and she was a strong support for a long time during season 6. Even mid Karma can't ignore the strength of her RE and will build for it. Yeah exactly, it's the cheapest exploitable strategy for her, and in co-ordinated play she cannot fail. Her team can, but she can't. > Yea. Don't get me wrong, I want a unique niche, but I'd be fine with her old RE. It was fun in itself. Yeah I agree.
> [{quoted}](name=IcebornKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dpwcAMdH,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-30T01:41:55.278+0000) > > Mikael takes up an item slot, has a very long CD and offers no combat stats, like quicksilver. > Again Yasuo is a Skirmisher and plays by different rules. You'd have to define the rules, of where to draw the lines between classes and champs having strong tools like this because it's not like Yasuo is lacking in range or mobility. An RE like this would need a inherent weakness, I wouldn't expect it to work the same way RE works now. For my idea, it'd need an incredibly short window to proc (short of like Blitz silence at .75 secs), so there's counter-play to baiting the cleanse-stun. If it's still too strong, lower the base or scaling shield, though it's already on the low spectrum as far as enchanters go. There's plenty of ways to play around this. > Lol it's not about having "strong utility" per se, its about disregarding intended weaknesses and being broken. A ranged mage/support with a built-in CC cleanse would not be allowed to solo lane, especially not with Karma's average CDs that would be broken. Unless it was locked behind level 6 and very lengthy CD it would not happen, it would be way too strong and way too safe. That's why I say for Karma to have this way too much would have to be sacrificed, and it really wouldn't be worth it, as much as I liked the idea. I think we're imagining two different abilities. An RE with a cleanse as she is now would be broken and unbalanced. But that's not what I'm thinking. An RE with a cleanse-stun without the AoE or without the MS, perhaps with a shorter shield duration (not fond of how long shields stay up anyway in general). Don't forget this is a use of mantra, and while Karma can bring it back up, it's still going to require time. And they may not _exactly_ be cleanses, but Sivir's and Morgana's spell shields botlane almost act like them anyway. As for it not being available at lvl 1, maybe. This is a hypothetical rework scenario, anyway. > Yeah exactly, it's the cheapest exploitable strategy for her, and in co-ordinated play she cannot fail. Her team can, but she can't. Yeah it's probably the unhealthiest part of her kit.
: > An ability similar to that is already part of a champions regular kit (aka Fiora) and it's not even an ult. But Fiora is a melee Skirmisher, who plays by a completely different set of rules. Fiora's riposte is also just for her. For Karma it would be for her allies, and herself since she can cast Mantra whilst disabled. It would be just too strong of an ability for her given that she is ranged mage/support. If there were to be a support with a built in Mikael's, I could guarantee they wouldn't be allowed to solo lane. > I agree that it could become too powerful, but that's why I suggest moving or removing aspects of her RE (MS, AoE) of her shield to keep it from being overloaded. But as it is, her RE shield right now is Karma's defining ability anyway. This just makes it more unique among enchanters/mages. I see her current RE less like a defining feature, more like a cheap exploitable strategy. > As for the MS on her E, I like it as a basic ability, what I dislike is her RE version of it. It doesn't feel satisfying as an ultimate. Which is why I suggested moving the MS to another part of her kit (W) or give her more CC. Fair enough. I do agree current RE isn't satisfying though, definitely not as much as it was before 5.10.
> [{quoted}](name=IcebornKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dpwcAMdH,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-29T23:47:45.750+0000) > > But Fiora is a melee Skirmisher, who plays by a completely different set of rules. Fiora's riposte is also just for her. > > For Karma it would be for her allies, and herself since she can cast Mantra whilst disabled. It would be just too strong of an ability for her given that she is ranged mage/support. If there were to be a support with a built in Mikael's, I could guarantee they wouldn't be allowed to solo lane. It's not just Fiora's riposte. You mentioned Mikeal but tenacity, quicksilver and it's items, even stupid things like Yasou's wind-wall which blocks ult damage let alone cc. Peel in general can and does interrupt enemy cc or dive's as well. Poppy is allowed to support and her w may not act as a cleanse, but it also completely shuts down dives. I don't think it's a hard and fast rule about offering strong utility and not being allowed to solo lane, it's all about balance. I don't think her being range automatically changes that. > I see her current RE less like a defining feature, more like a cheap exploitable strategy. It's why she's picked in LCS and she was a strong support for a long time during season 6. Even mid Karma can't ignore the strength of her RE and will build for it. > Fair enough. I do agree current RE isn't satisfying though, definitely not as much as it was before 5.10. Yea. Don't get me wrong, I want a unique niche, but I'd be fine with her old RE. It was fun in itself.
: You don't think there was any better way of buffing her?
No, there are definitely other ways (and rework will change her further), I'm just saying that this buff won't necessarily do as much if they change how ult hat works.
Aenaeus (NA)
: Support is a stupid clusterfuck of a role.
Hmm I wonder why I don't see any tank supports on this list? Rakan, Braum, and Alistar are basically the top pick supports at worlds. THEN Lulu, Janna, Morgana, etc..
: @Meddler About this Karma buff
Eh we don't know in what state Ultimate Hat will ship. It might not stay as it currently is. It could be heavily nerfed from here till launch, so I'm fine with this passive buff until they figure out (oh riot) where they're comfortable having the power of hat be. Plus the runes won't even hit till the season ends. We'll get this buffs to tide us over for two patches basically, so she's not sitting at 42-47% win rate.
: Janna Has More PBE Nerfs On The Way
Bonus AD lowered from 10/17.5/25/32.5/40 to 9/13/18/21/25 I feel like this and her E nerf should've been what they originally went for. If they want to make Janna more interactive, she needs a full rework. It's not possible as a mini-rework.
: The problem I'd imagine with a mechanic like that, is that it is powerful enough to be a champion's absolute defining feature/premiere ability. She end up being all about that spell, and her others would likely suffer for it. I think it's a cool idea (it was one of my 1st ever suggestions), but I don't think the trade offs would be worth it all. Being a mid Karma player I'm surprised you don't like the MS on E, it's not as if she can't her shield bomb because of the movement speed, the removed it to buff her passive.
An ability similar to that is already part of a champions regular kit (aka Fiora) and it's not even an ult. I agree that it could become too powerful, but that's why I suggest moving or removing aspects of her RE (MS, AoE) of her shield to keep it from being overloaded. But as it is, her RE shield right now _is_ Karma's defining ability anyway. This just makes it more unique among enchanters/mages. As for the MS on her E, I like it as a basic ability, what I dislike is her RE version of it. It doesn't feel satisfying as an ultimate. Which is why I suggested moving the MS to another part of her kit (W) or give her more CC.
: > If her kit really needed it, I'd either move the MS back to her W or give her better cc on Q to make her combo's reliable. You do realise this would remove a lot of agency from her, right? > As for replacement for the shield, some new effect. I've suggested this before, but a psuedo-fiora w cleanse-stun combo for REs main target would be interesting... but also probably really frustrating lol. Something like that, a unique niche that other supports or battlemages don't occupy. In order for her to have something like this, she'd probably have to sacrifice a lot, that's strong af lol
Because it's harder to initiate? Eh it depends on what they do with the rest of her kit. lol yea, but her base shield numbers are already among the lowest for enchanters so can't say I'd mind losing more power for a mechanic like this.
: That's interesting, Karma has always had MS in her kit and functionally it makes a lot of sense. What would you replace it with?
If her kit really needed it, I'd either move the MS back to her W or give her better cc on Q to make her combo's reliable. As for replacement for the shield, some new effect. I've suggested this before, but a psuedo-fiora w cleanse-stun combo for REs main target would be interesting... but also probably really frustrating lol. Something like that, a unique niche that other supports or battlemages don't occupy.
: What did you think of her reworked shield bomb (AoE damage, shield and MS)?
So RE before the 5.10 nerf? Mixed feelings. Love the damage and think having it act as a AoE to maximize damage is interesting and allows skill expression. The problem is it's niche feels very overlapped with Locket and Talisman, even with the damage. Plus Sona also does it as well. Still vastly superior to current RE, but if I had my way I'd keep the damage and would be willing to lose either the MS or AoE shield and add... something else to make it a bit more unique.
hopeful4 (EUNE)
: Do you believe that new runes will have diversity or it will just be 1-2 optimal paths again?
It's too early to judge. I think the rune diversity right now is mostly an illusion because we don't know what's most optimal and/or what'll get nerfed into the ground in the future. After more time with them, we'll really see if rune diversity ends up being a real thing.
: What do you like about Karma? (Discussion)
Success? I like the skill-check passive. It's fun and I like how low you can get your ult on low cd with some well-placed spells and aa's Soul-Flare is really nice, though I also liked her cone, because it's satisfying to land. But yeah, ground-targeted would be better. The heal on tether I sort of like? It's fun on tank karma, feels bad on mage karma. Considering I rarely use RW in the roles I play (mid, supp) I'd prefer her utility tether. Maybe if they allowed you to heal your ally I'd be more ok with it. That's it I think lol. I could live without the ms on shield honestly, prefer her shield-bomb and utility tether.
: Karma: The Old, The New and The Ugly
I think we can go out and talk about her rework but the real problem is finding a consensus. Personally the biggest problems I've had with my own rework ideas is getting her to be unique _without_ overloading her kit. If she had a regular ultimate it'd be much simpler, but her mantra opens up lots of options while making them difficult to balance. From what I've seen the most agreed upon change Karma fans want is **Shield-Bomb** Even new fans like the concept of it, it's fun and offers her more damage options so all her power isn't forced into just Q. Narrowing down the rest of her kit and what it should look like is the hard part. I think labeling what New Karma and Old Karma was known for in their kits and creating a priority list might be interesting. New Karma a. Poke b. AoE Shield c. AoE Engage + Disengage d. Self-Heal & Bait Tether e. Low CD Ult(s) Old Karma a. Cone Heal & Damage b. Speed & Utility Tether c. Shield Explosion d. Low Health AP scaling e. Stored Ult(s) Though the problem with that might be liking both of a same occupying niche (Self-Heal vs Utility Teether). {{item:3070}}
: True, but all it's going to lead to is good supports needing to hold their heals in order to shield. It won't be optimal for supports to deal damage. Looters is an interesting option. Considering the keystones available to Enchanter's, it might be one that gets a lot of play. Personally, when I support I don't give a fuck about myself. Lol, but seriously, I try to help my ally as much as possible. For me that's even meant taking Stoneborn over Courage. Looter's could be good but it's not...a good SUPPORT keystone. But it's a FUN keystone for people supporting. :/ As I said, it's the a matter of the intrinsic value people find in supports.
For Aerie or Athene's? Actually I was wrong on Athene's, heals can proc the passive. That's why Nidalee works and she doesn't have a shield. It's more about supports who poke/already do some damage building the charge quickly. So that's why Janna, Soraka and Nami rarely or don't built it was often. Looters will be interesting to see develop. Not sure what sort of niche it'll occupy and for who it's intended but I'll keep an eye out for during the PBE tests. I hope enchanters can utilize it as a 2nd option. You mean for utility? Eh its another source of gold income which as a role has traditionally lacked options for it, it helps your partner by getting your core items faster. More in line with spellthief, but with aa's.
: It's definitely more visible, appreciable, and interactive. It definitely isn't more powerful. Although it'll be interesting to see how WSB and SP as lesser runes impacts this. Damn forgot Athenes. Inspiration seems like it would be a great place to dump some interesting support ideas. It has some but could be explored more fully. The issue is not many people appreciate how powerful certain support things can be until it's overbearing. So Riot is trying to put in a very visible way of to express power that can make supports feel good. I suppose I never had issue with the subtlety. If anything, I loved silently tipping the edge in my teams favor. Not the same can be said for others. I still think Stoneborn deserves to be a keystone. Perhaps stronger, more noticeable, but with less up-time. But even I have to admit, besides the raw power of it, it's hard to argue for Windspeaker's to return as it is.
It's healthier than flat stat keystones imo. Enchanters can already be uninteractive as it is, we don't need more passive keystones for them. They need to make more choices beyond "okay, this is more -free- scaling for my shields/heals". Athene's is a niche item but I like it a lot concept-wise. I think of the potential users, Ivern builds it most consistently. Karma, Lulu, Sona, Lux and Nidalee only sometimes. I'd say buff it but we saw what happened with Ardent... I actually saw an interesting comment awhile ago about Looters (last Inspiration slot) being a potential support keystone. I didn't think of it that way when it was revealed but it... could be used as a enchanter keystone? They seem to be pushing them to AA more (ardent, janna changes) and the keystone focus on gold generation and consumables.
: Junglers Have No Keystone
Dark Harvest? It explicitly says monsters in the tooltip. Also Predator, Phase Rush and Summoners Specialist are also options. If anything they have the most versatility for keystones compared to most other roles.
: To replace it with one that doesn't suck preferably. The fact that they went through all this trouble to change runes and masteries but still ended up shitting on supports is kind of hilarious. Stoneborn and Windspeaker's were really fun. Stoneborn was renamed, nerfed, and no longer a keystone. Same to Windspeaker's. I suppose it's potentially nice that you can apply both but I'd prefer something stronger and/or more options for supports in general. I suppose they might not fit the direction they're trying to take keystones. I just wish supports, mainly Enchanters, had better more numerous options. Like what if your heals also gave a shield or your shield also gave a heal? And if the target is below 30% health your Heal/Shield also heals them for 10% of their maximum health over four seconds?
I think Aeries is more interactive than WSB. You can choose to attack or give it to your ally. It just sucks that it's basically an ability an enchanter already has but Lulu's kit is iconic for other parts anyway (polymorph...). This also did this with Aftershock and Leona. Support keystones seem harder for Riot to come up with than damage. Your shields can already heal, that's what Athene's does. And lots of enchanters do both (Janna, Sona, Taric, Rakan, Karma & Lulu with Athene's), I think only Soraka and Nami don't naturally have shields in her kit but Locket is/was a thing. Maybe Bard as well if he counts as a hybrid enchanter. It would've been nice for a tree to be dedicated to supporting with more options but it doesn't seem like what riot had in mind
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dreadnoughtus01

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