I disagree on enchanters necessarily being easy to kill 1v1. It's about 50/50. {{champion:117}} , {{champion:40}} , {{champion:497}} and {{champion:44}} (hybrid vanguard) are not easy to kill. The former's are queens of disengage and the hybrids are just straight up semi-tanky. I'd also include current {{champion:43}} in this list since she has E and RW. (maybe also {{champion:432}} in this category if he counts) {{champion:16}} , {{champion:37}} , {{champion:267}} and {{champion:350}} (not attached, but really when is she ever gonna be alone) probably fit closet to what you are talking about. But yeah, it's not a general rule for enchanters to be easy to kill 1v1. Being more team-reliant is more true as a general rule for enchanters, but again Karma as a hybrid mage class is already breaking that mold. I'd also argue that both Rakan and Taric also are hard to kill and are disruptors in team-fights. (though not necessarily 1v1 beasts) Should also note some battle mages already go bot. {{champion:50}} isn't necessarily meta, but not too uncommon either. though he of course played more of a catcher and semi-tank. Unless you straight up make Karma an enchanter with no ability to 1v1, this is always going to run counter to the 'guidelines' to enchanter's typical weaknesses. I don't think it's necessarily difficult to make her balanced, as SilverSquid states you just need to give her the choice to use her abilities selfishly or supporitively. The suggestion I gave for a revised Q, for example, means she is either heals herself or an ally. That's one way you could balance out her abilities as a hybrid class.

I agree with what seems like the main consensus here in that Karma should probably be a battle mage/enchanter hybrid. I'd keep her ability to sustain herself _(but scaling with AP)_, shield, and ms but drop her **_range_ **significantly so she needs to put herself in danger to be effective as well as nerf or overhaul her passive cd ult mechanic. Most battle mages have reduced range on their core damage moves * {{champion:50}} 850/750 * {{champion:8}} 600/700 * {{champion:136}} 650+ * {{champion:13}} 1000/600 Outside of Ryze, they are all under 850 range, but even he needs to get closer to deal his full combo; so I think Karma should stray closer to this aspect. If anything, I think her Q should be wider but shorter ala original Karma. ~~perhaps an almost fan-like cone~~ *cough* To offset this, perhaps her Q could go back to healing Karma with a few second delay, which maybe she can then choose to use on herself or give to her ally after 1 or 2 seconds with W or E. Further cementing her enchanter status ala Soraka, Nami and Rakan. To be fair, support/enchanter Karma already does this once she gets Athene, so I'd double down this aspect. I'd also appreciate it better that each of her abilities, like Senna, should have a enchanter and damage component. Lots of people have given ideas for this (including RQ healing zone, RW resistances, RE shieldbomb) which I think work well enough. I wouldn't mind losing out on some CC as well, as I don't think people pick Karma for her strong CC anyway; she should only have enough to be able to kite effectively and keep up her harass, that's pretty much it. But yeah, I'd basically exchange her burst mage and tank/warden-lite identities for a truer battle mage and enchanter identity.

> [{quoted}](name=FlameHalbrdOkido,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IbidzvcM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-10-29T23:58:20.919+0000) > > Q - dont mess with resources a simple slow will work I was actually gonna comment that it would be a unique niche. Do we have any champions that can interact with resources in this way? It could be something interesting to explore. (I know Soraka could generate mana but decreasing it is a bit different) ----- In terms of the feedback, I like the basic concept and certain ideas like the q one above and the splitting of ms and shield strength to different builds or roles, but think it should perhaps be simplified a bit. I'm not sure R should be shifting between roles, it could just as easily be an inherent mechanic or new passive for Karma to bolster or enhance her next attack depending on what ability you are using somewhat akin to Sona. I think someone mentioned in SilverSquid's thread, but something like Qs drain strength and can bolster Karma's shield strength and blocked E damage turns into augmented Q damage. Alternatively W could feed into itself to increase next root or healing effects. Or it could be split into entirely different ways, maybe Qs enhances cc by a slight amount, while W increases shields, etc... Not a perfect summery of what was suggested, but basically I like something _Karmic_ to be core to her design. I think the duality is expressed well in your rework diea, but not so much karma.

The only part of karma's gameplay that I'd like to keep is her shield + ms (ideally with shieldbomb). Everything else can change as far as I'm concerned. So with that in mind in order of most interested to least Mixture (though probably too unrealistic imo) Twin Dragons 3.5 Shield-bomb Fans Battle Mage ... Simple QoL

I agree with the team that the W they had planned didn't fit Karma. An ability that reduces CDs and a new passive that allows them to spot allies **_timed _**abilities fits Zilean way more than a champion about spirit, balance and duality. As for changing her passive, if it's two store charges of Mantra to use in quick succession then have an internal cd on the ability instead of allowing 3-4 mantras in a teamfight like pro-players do atm than that's fine. Though that seems like a nerf, so maybe putting power back into other aspects of her kit that wouldn't affect pro play as much. It's too bad you couldn't make the first iteration of Neurocat's Karma's W work, it'd looked much more fun and actually fit her ie being able to spirit walk ouo. (also, forever wanting shieldbomb)

I'm glad that {{champion:43}} is being looked at for a buff, it's certainly felt like she's been struggling this last patch. Curious on if there's been on any decisions regarding how they want to buff her and where? Her shield has been the most problematic part of her kit, but I wouldn't exactly say no to a numbers buff (especially since the duration's noticeably shorter now anyway). Also any thoughts to what the team are considering with her larger-scale work?

With Irelia around the corner, any hope that the Karma rework has made some progress? The mini-Karma rework along with some Ionia lore update coming at the same time would be really cool.

Any Karma mini-rework news?

I hope it's kept in mind not *all* enchanters are in a good spot. Karma support is pretty terrible right now, meh early game with the stupid sustain in lane and scales poorly compared to other enchanters. Mage Karma is better but these shield or item nerfs will hurt her as well as she still uses E and RE often and she's only barely decent atm.

Any news on Karma's mini-rework?

Any news on Karma's mini-rework?

But it's not a real story. It's not developed, it's a skeleton or a concept that isn't fully realized. It's not a arc, but a statement. You can make the argument lengths doesn't matter but even short stories make the restriction of _at least_ a 1,000 words (not characters). This is less than 350, thus closer to a summery and not a story. Unless you're being very loose with what constitutes a story? Like these https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/12/16/143660782/how-short-can-a-very-short-story-be but they seem more like poems honestly.

"Varus's character arc" That part, his lore isn't an arc, it's an exert or two paragraph summery.

I'm not ignoring anything, Darius wasn't able to make a choice but he was going to make one. And he felt grief. But whatever, I made my points, even if you ignore the clear comparisons their still there. I don't even like Varus new story but it's more unique and has more effort than his old one.

Yeah, development is key for stories I think. I mean, unless it's a poem but Varus lore isn't that. Anyway I don't mean to belittle your feelings, I'm just saying that you grew attached to an idea that maybe had potential but was mostly fueled from imagination and your own ideas on a old concept (not a bad thing), but it wasn't a story Riot actually _told_.

Did you ignore me saying New Darius? The one who was sent after his old paramore because she'd raised a resistance and was being forced, by duty, to execute her? That's _not_ a conflict of duty and personal interest? Not to mention the loss of family in that story, the son he didn't know about and seeing his possible daughter kill his not-wife. Loss of family via duty driving the comparison further. The only thing missing in that plot is corruption and darkin, but Darius is entirely motivated by duty, patriotism and pride even against his own interests at times.

I can make it simpler; losing family and revenge. Also I provided examples, just one's you didn't agree filled the niche.

But this isn't something that was ever developed. Again it was two paragraphs, how do you get emotionally attached to two paragraphs? This is less change than a VGU that Galio and other champions have gone through. As for him being an old champion, yeah, but older champions are the one's people most ask for changes. They are not up to date and usually not developed. Varus was/is a step away from being a blank slate. I don't really find his chord unique. Other characters have themes of revenge and corruption, maybe not in the exact way, but definitely present.

Only if you're asking for an exact copy instead of his major themes, which are still incredibly generic.

New Darius was kind of was leaning that way before his paramore was killed and it's also much better written. Though he's still with Noxus. As for overlap, Riven has the betrayer aspect covered. Yasou got his family killed but it was pride. Probably more I'm forgetting.

One of the better lore that is already present in multiple champions? There wasn't anything unique about losing a family and corruption, even in LoL. What was there was basically non-existent. Maybe they liked what was in their heads, because Riot didn't really have a character really.

Represent more how? It's a simple story, a revenge plot that we've seen in media everywhere, even in League! So many characters in LoL have lost families and are corrupted, in both the metaphorical and literal sense. The only thing different about Varus was the darkin implication connection. Heck Darius has his old plot but better developed and in a more complex way! Actually now that I think about, New Varus is a lot more unique actually, so it at least has that going for it, even it is weird as heck.

Maybe they didn't like the story? Maybe they had a similar concept (darkin bow user) that would've overlapped with old varus and thus the recton? There's a number of reasons. I just find it funny to act like Riot put time and effort into his old lore, when it's just two paragraphs.

So even less than I thought. I get that they changed his identity, as a VERY simplistic concept and story, so why are people freaking out like they radically changed a characters whose had a lot of development? It doesn't make any sense. His story had barely any effort put into it.

Ok this is more than a little ridiculous. His old lore wasn't a novel or that well established. Actually was it even more than a couple of paragraphs of text? Like I'd understand if the characters and his family were from a novel or serial comic which took effort to build up and thus players had time to get attached but seriously? A couple of paragraphs... {{sticker:slayer-jinx-unamused}}

I appreciate them introducing a gay character (sort of) but the way they've handled it was very clumsy. The story itself is fine in concept and fun in a weird way, I just think all this backlash could've been avoided if they didn't decide to use Varus which already had his own backstory. I don't get why they chose him specifically either, maybe they thought of the concept of a darkin with a bow but since Varus was already created and sort of similar they decided "meh, old lore, don't care; recton" but they underestimated how much people are resistant to change and how attached they get to old images. Then again, it feels like every time a gay character is revealed there is backlash no matter what. Tracer in Overwatch didn't have an established background that contradicted her being a lesbian and it still turned into a stupid controversy because of fans. Meh whatever. I do want updated lore and don't have a problem with changing and updating storylines (the new Darius stuff is awesome) but I hope they avoid too drastic alterations in the future. If only to avoid situations like this... :/

If they made RQ ground targeted, it wouldn't need W to combo it reliably. Like Soraka's or Brand's Q. Though it would make her less of a battle-mage... eh, they could add a better W that combos more naturally.

I wonder if the Irelia VGU and Karma's mini-rework will be around the same time. That'd fit nicely for an Ionian lore update.

Sona, Karma and Lulu can and do build athene's. Nami potentially as well if she's playing more aggressive. Janna and Soraka not so much. I think what Riot are trying to do is make distinct support items. Enchanters have a certain pool and Vanguard/Catchers have another. The problem being is we just don't have much item diversity at the moment so everyone ends up building a lot of the same thing. **Enchanter Items/Builds** Mikeal, Redemption, Athene, Ardent + situational ap/tank items. **Vanguard/Catcher Builds** Locket, Knights Vow, Zeke, Righteous Glory (?) + tank or ap items **Mage Support Item/Builds** FQC + normal ap items With some mixing and matching here and there (Mikeal). It's not bad in theory, but I think Riot should definitely look into expanding the item choice pool before they start carving into too distinct niches for these items.

I agree on the first three but Janna... she's feels unique, but there's a lot of debate on whether her kit is healthy. It's why Riot gave her so many changes last patch. Honestly, she still needs work to make her kit feel more cohesive and more interactive.

Oh? This has me excited, yes, the enchanters basically need a class update even if Riot isn't doing them anymore. Least interactive class in the game, too safe, with boring mechanics. Plus Sona, Soraka and Janna are really old game designs. The best enchanters mechanically are the newest one's. Nami and the hybrid enchanters like Taric/Rakan all feel (relatively) fair and have counter-play.

Actually yeah, the 65% tenacity I could live without. Though now that I think about it, it should function differently than Morgana's... the whole point is to move away from overlapping. Maybe instead of magic damage, it absorbs attack damage? There's still other ways to make the shield unique but I don't want to overload.

> [{quoted}](name=IcebornKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dpwcAMdH,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-30T01:41:55.278+0000) > > Mikael takes up an item slot, has a very long CD and offers no combat stats, like quicksilver. > Again Yasuo is a Skirmisher and plays by different rules. You'd have to define the rules, of where to draw the lines between classes and champs having strong tools like this because it's not like Yasuo is lacking in range or mobility. An RE like this would need a inherent weakness, I wouldn't expect it to work the same way RE works now. For my idea, it'd need an incredibly short window to proc (short of like Blitz silence at .75 secs), so there's counter-play to baiting the cleanse-stun. If it's still too strong, lower the base or scaling shield, though it's already on the low spectrum as far as enchanters go. There's plenty of ways to play around this. > Lol it's not about having "strong utility" per se, its about disregarding intended weaknesses and being broken. A ranged mage/support with a built-in CC cleanse would not be allowed to solo lane, especially not with Karma's average CDs that would be broken. Unless it was locked behind level 6 and very lengthy CD it would not happen, it would be way too strong and way too safe. That's why I say for Karma to have this way too much would have to be sacrificed, and it really wouldn't be worth it, as much as I liked the idea. I think we're imagining two different abilities. An RE with a cleanse as she is now would be broken and unbalanced. But that's not what I'm thinking. An RE with a cleanse-stun without the AoE or without the MS, perhaps with a shorter shield duration (not fond of how long shields stay up anyway in general). Don't forget this is a use of mantra, and while Karma can bring it back up, it's still going to require time. And they may not _exactly_ be cleanses, but Sivir's and Morgana's spell shields botlane almost act like them anyway. As for it not being available at lvl 1, maybe. This is a hypothetical rework scenario, anyway. > Yeah exactly, it's the cheapest exploitable strategy for her, and in co-ordinated play she cannot fail. Her team can, but she can't. Yeah it's probably the unhealthiest part of her kit.

> [{quoted}](name=IcebornKing,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dpwcAMdH,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-29T23:47:45.750+0000) > > But Fiora is a melee Skirmisher, who plays by a completely different set of rules. Fiora's riposte is also just for her. > > For Karma it would be for her allies, and herself since she can cast Mantra whilst disabled. It would be just too strong of an ability for her given that she is ranged mage/support. If there were to be a support with a built in Mikael's, I could guarantee they wouldn't be allowed to solo lane. It's not just Fiora's riposte. You mentioned Mikeal but tenacity, quicksilver and it's items, even stupid things like Yasou's wind-wall which blocks ult damage let alone cc. Peel in general can and does interrupt enemy cc or dive's as well. Poppy is allowed to support and her w may not act as a cleanse, but it also completely shuts down dives. I don't think it's a hard and fast rule about offering strong utility and not being allowed to solo lane, it's all about balance. I don't think her being range automatically changes that. > I see her current RE less like a defining feature, more like a cheap exploitable strategy. It's why she's picked in LCS and she was a strong support for a long time during season 6. Even mid Karma can't ignore the strength of her RE and will build for it. > Fair enough. I do agree current RE isn't satisfying though, definitely not as much as it was before 5.10. Yea. Don't get me wrong, I want a unique niche, but I'd be fine with her old RE. It was fun in itself.

No, there are definitely other ways (and rework will change her further), I'm just saying that this buff won't necessarily do as much if they change how ult hat works.

Hmm I wonder why I don't see any tank supports on this list? Rakan, Braum, and Alistar are basically the top pick supports at worlds. THEN Lulu, Janna, Morgana, etc..

Eh we don't know in what state Ultimate Hat will ship. It might not stay as it currently is. It could be heavily nerfed from here till launch, so I'm fine with this passive buff until they figure out (oh riot) where they're comfortable having the power of hat be. Plus the runes won't even hit till the season ends. We'll get this buffs to tide us over for two patches basically, so she's not sitting at 42-47% win rate.

Bonus AD lowered from 10/17.5/25/32.5/40 to 9/13/18/21/25 I feel like this and her E nerf should've been what they originally went for. If they want to make Janna more interactive, she needs a full rework. It's not possible as a mini-rework.

An ability similar to that is already part of a champions regular kit (aka Fiora) and it's not even an ult. I agree that it could become too powerful, but that's why I suggest moving or removing aspects of her RE (MS, AoE) of her shield to keep it from being overloaded. But as it is, her RE shield right now _is_ Karma's defining ability anyway. This just makes it more unique among enchanters/mages. As for the MS on her E, I like it as a basic ability, what I dislike is her RE version of it. It doesn't feel satisfying as an ultimate. Which is why I suggested moving the MS to another part of her kit (W) or give her more CC.

Because it's harder to initiate? Eh it depends on what they do with the rest of her kit. lol yea, but her base shield numbers are already among the lowest for enchanters so can't say I'd mind losing more power for a mechanic like this.

If her kit really needed it, I'd either move the MS back to her W or give her better cc on Q to make her combo's reliable. As for replacement for the shield, some new effect. I've suggested this before, but a psuedo-fiora w cleanse-stun combo for REs main target would be interesting... but also probably really frustrating lol. Something like that, a unique niche that other supports or battlemages don't occupy.

So RE before the 5.10 nerf? Mixed feelings. Love the damage and think having it act as a AoE to maximize damage is interesting and allows skill expression. The problem is it's niche feels very overlapped with Locket and Talisman, even with the damage. Plus Sona also does it as well. Still vastly superior to current RE, but if I had my way I'd keep the damage and would be willing to lose either the MS or AoE shield and add... something else to make it a bit more unique.

It's too early to judge. I think the rune diversity right now is mostly an illusion because we don't know what's most optimal and/or what'll get nerfed into the ground in the future. After more time with them, we'll really see if rune diversity ends up being a real thing.

Success? I like the skill-check passive. It's fun and I like how low you can get your ult on low cd with some well-placed spells and aa's Soul-Flare is really nice, though I also liked her cone, because it's satisfying to land. But yeah, ground-targeted would be better. The heal on tether I sort of like? It's fun on tank karma, feels bad on mage karma. Considering I rarely use RW in the roles I play (mid, supp) I'd prefer her utility tether. Maybe if they allowed you to heal your ally I'd be more ok with it. That's it I think lol. I could live without the ms on shield honestly, prefer her shield-bomb and utility tether.

I think we can go out and talk about her rework but the real problem is finding a consensus. Personally the biggest problems I've had with my own rework ideas is getting her to be unique _without_ overloading her kit. If she had a regular ultimate it'd be much simpler, but her mantra opens up lots of options while making them difficult to balance. From what I've seen the most agreed upon change Karma fans want is **Shield-Bomb** Even new fans like the concept of it, it's fun and offers her more damage options so all her power isn't forced into just Q. Narrowing down the rest of her kit and what it should look like is the hard part. I think labeling what New Karma and Old Karma was known for in their kits and creating a priority list might be interesting. New Karma a. Poke b. AoE Shield c. AoE Engage + Disengage d. Self-Heal & Bait Tether e. Low CD Ult(s) Old Karma a. Cone Heal & Damage b. Speed & Utility Tether c. Shield Explosion d. Low Health AP scaling e. Stored Ult(s) Though the problem with that might be liking both of a same occupying niche (Self-Heal vs Utility Teether). {{item:3070}}

For Aerie or Athene's? Actually I was wrong on Athene's, heals can proc the passive. That's why Nidalee works and she doesn't have a shield. It's more about supports who poke/already do some damage building the charge quickly. So that's why Janna, Soraka and Nami rarely or don't built it was often. Looters will be interesting to see develop. Not sure what sort of niche it'll occupy and for who it's intended but I'll keep an eye out for during the PBE tests. I hope enchanters can utilize it as a 2nd option. You mean for utility? Eh its another source of gold income which as a role has traditionally lacked options for it, it helps your partner by getting your core items faster. More in line with spellthief, but with aa's.

It's healthier than flat stat keystones imo. Enchanters can already be uninteractive as it is, we don't need more passive keystones for them. They need to make more choices beyond "okay, this is more -free- scaling for my shields/heals". Athene's is a niche item but I like it a lot concept-wise. I think of the potential users, Ivern builds it most consistently. Karma, Lulu, Sona, Lux and Nidalee only sometimes. I'd say buff it but we saw what happened with Ardent... I actually saw an interesting comment awhile ago about Looters (last Inspiration slot) being a potential support keystone. I didn't think of it that way when it was revealed but it... could be used as a enchanter keystone? They seem to be pushing them to AA more (ardent, janna changes) and the keystone focus on gold generation and consumables.

Dark Harvest? It explicitly says monsters in the tooltip. Also Predator, Phase Rush and Summoners Specialist are also options. If anything they have the most versatility for keystones compared to most other roles.

I think Aeries is more interactive than WSB. You can choose to attack or give it to your ally. It just sucks that it's basically an ability an enchanter already has but Lulu's kit is iconic for other parts anyway (polymorph...). This also did this with Aftershock and Leona. Support keystones seem harder for Riot to come up with than damage. Your shields can already heal, that's what Athene's does. And lots of enchanters do both (Janna, Sona, Taric, Rakan, Karma & Lulu with Athene's), I think only Soraka and Nami don't naturally have shields in her kit but Locket is/was a thing. Maybe Bard as well if he counts as a hybrid enchanter. It would've been nice for a tree to be dedicated to supporting with more options but it doesn't seem like what riot had in mind