: Nobody likes Shaco, deal with it
Hey look, another tosser who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
: @hey rito, why dont you just admit you dont want people to play shaco and morde
Riot can go fuck themselves honestly. I'm tired of their clear fucking bias towards champions and their unsated hunger for more and more money via skins and other cosmetic crap. How about fixing the fucking game instead of pumping out shitty skins every fucking patch??
: But riot is not ignoring shaco. Remmember the crit change they made for his backstab? if shaco's attack would normally crit, it will ignore back stab and deal the full crit damage. Does that sound like ignoring??They are addressing shaco, but all you want to do is whine.
That's fixing a fucking bug that should've been fucking fixed during the fucking rework, not leaving him gimped with a shit passive that disables his crit and thunderlords.
: why does shaco get to crit without items and cait can't?
: I mean, when Shaco has a 56% winrate, maybe he should be looked at first. Maybe I'm crazy. http://lolalytics.com/champion/Shaco/Jungle/
Maybe shaco has a higher fucking winrate because his playerbase are nothing but his mains who have over 100 games on him at the very least. Meanwhile anyone can pick any of those cancerous op shits and demolish because they're ACTUALLY FUCKING OP AND IN NEED OF NERFS How about you look at his other stats before talking out of your ass
: Maybe the explanation is that the removal of Pink wards was too much of a buff for a champion who already has free invades and no need for a leash.
Maybe the nerfs to his damage across the board and the destruction of his AD build was enough for the fucking pink removal? if they're gonna gut a fucking champion completely over the removal of pinks then fucking bring them back and give me back my champion. I'm actually curious how you believe the removal of one item that barely did shit to stop us ganking justifies all the nerfs we've been getting. Whoever is making these decisions at Riot needs to get fucking sacked
DarianEX (NA)
: what are you talking about?
Check the pbe, they destroyed shaco
: Without pink wards, there is no counterplay to Shaco. I'm glad they're making him harder to play.
He was already harder to play since you needed 3 items just to be able to kill someone. His early game got taken away due to his Q having 1.5 stealth which doesn't last long enough to get you into lane to gank, his base damage on his abilities is utter garbage without going nothing but AP, and his AD build is now non existent. Are you seriously gonna say shaco has no counterplay when he can barely deal damage? have you even played the champion you're talking about?
Rioter Comments
Leo1024 (NA)
: Exhaust is the counterplay for supports trying to save them and their adc from giving the assasin a free double
No, warding and not over extending when you can't see the assassin is the counterplay to an assassin. even when he shows up you still have your flash to get the fuck away before he kills you due to the fact that most the assassins now can't one shot you like before.
: Let's talk about the assassin update
You're pretty much right really. Even mages now have to poke a fuck ton before they can go all in unless they were stupidly fed. Assassins can no longer assassinate. Tanks are now all juggernauts/bruisers with consistent damage over time and stupid amounts of health regen/life steal to keep them in teamfights. Mages can only kill you with a full rotate if they're 2 levels or more ahead. ADC are ranged bursiers who have a lot of mobility for some reason and can regen a fuck ton keeping them safe even if they just stood there and fast tanked an assassin. The only role that hasn't changed is support still being a role about being either a heal bot or a cc bot who would occasionally ward or drop a bit of cc here and there.
Rioter Comments
This has been a bug since the rework and they haven't addressed it or replied to any of the posts about it. Just accept that it's now part of his kit.
179 (EUW)
: @riot did you purposely change shaco in the assassin update to make his core build ap ?
They don't plan on fixing shit. even his future VGU is gonna be a nerf to whatever viability he has right now, mark my words.
: Ap Shaco Vs Kennen top frustration.
Control ward reveal his boxes and so does your free red trinket. If you're losing to shaco top as kennen then maybe you're just bad.
: Remember the good old days when Shaco wasn't in every game
Mate they literally just fucking gutted half his damage what more do you fucking want you piece of shit?
raishinari (EUNE)
The reason shaco has a higher winrate is because his mains are dedicated and despite all the nerfs to his damage and bugs that riot added to fuck him up (Example: masteries like thunderlords taking more hits/spells to proc, clone is still being buggy as fuck, and his backstab passive dealing less damage than a normal crit). The reason shaco has a higher winrate is because of his playerbase.
GIJose65 (NA)
: Do people actually want shaco to be strong in the meta?
Nobody wants him to be strong or see LCS play, we want our old champion back who even before the preseason was considered weak in comparison to most junglers. and if you'd read the patch notes you'd know that they didn't simply "nerf his JiTB", they gutted all the damage on his abilities forcing him into a squishy bruiser build, they removed the stacking from his boxes and gave him a debuff passive that does less damage than an actual crit. They also bugged his autos so now proc'ing thunderlords takes 4 to 6 autos + abilities to proc it. just because you don't know how to play against a champion doesn't mean it should be fucking nerfed into the ground
: Have you noticed it this patch only, or patches before?
It started this patch. I'm amazed by how Riot somehow made shaco even buggier than he was pre rework
Hey sure why not, while we're at it how about giving us back our damage and our time in stealth as well as our old cooldowns.
: Duskblade "Unseen" Passive Seems Op
well it's on a 90 second cooldown and the reason we have it is because they took away the buff from the raptors and gave us a shitty plant.
MagÊ (EUW)
: Shaco threads, Akali threads, meanwhile Zed
>Zed was one of the healthiest assassin in the game Opinion discarded, also your title, both akali and shaco got gutted into the fucking ground, zed was barely touched in comparison to those two.
Rioter Comments
: Damage nerfs and buffs aside Wukong Stealth lasts 1.5 seconds at all ranks and does not blink him to target location shaco's Deceive is a blink ability so how much the stealth duration should be? When Shaco ganks he did lack counterplay appears from nowhere. I was literally not able to see him when he uses his Q to gank me so that nerf is well deserved. You think 1.5 seconds stealth is not enough but its a blink ability as well and it does extra damage on top of that
Shaco, unlike wukong doesn't have both burst and sustain damage slapped onto his kit. He also can't get tanky like wukong due to the fact he has no real base damage and has to build a full glass cannon build to do any damage(especially now that he has to rely heavily on his autos to deal damage). So his Q that you claim is so strong is useless now since he has no actual damage to follow up on his ganks, he has to wait til mid to late game to deal ANY damage despite him allegedly being an assassin
Dessem (EUW)
: And this is why I'm banning Shaco, Riot. Fuck Shaco.
>Granted, he was ahead Then what are you complaining about? shaco is significantly weaker now thanks to the cries of ADC who don't know how to play the game. Also, you really wanna call shaco op when you're playing cait? Do you know the definition of irony?
: > [{quoted}](name=ff4sk,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Rdqfw0p4,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-11-09T20:09:00.668+0000) > > Shaco feels a lot weaker than he previously was and his gank potential is almost non existent since now all your damage comes from your auto attacks instead of your abilities. > > Are there any plans to buff the numbers on his abilities? cause right now shaco feels a lot more like a bruiser than an assassin due to the fact all his damage is reliant on him auto attacking. > > I don't see how you thought making a squishy assassin this reliant on his auto attacks to deal any damage was a good idea, even with an AP build he feels clunky to play compared to his previous self. just played against an AP shaco as tristana, he was oneshotting me with his E until i got maw and even then still almost oneshot me wtf you mean lol
That could be because your team fed the fuck out of him. I checked the game history, the only reason he was "one shotting" which I assume you mean chunking damage off of you is because he built nothing but AP and proc'd thunderlords. Also the fact that no one on your team was past silver 5 meanwhile he was a gold 2 player could of contributed to the fact he stomped. Checked his other games where he had diamonds and plats and he was struggling to even get to his full build. See I too can take a shit champion and stomp ignorant players with them, doesn't mean the champ is broken or OP, just means I have more experience and know how to play said champion. Higher elo an AP cheese build isn't as viable considering people know to group and build at least 1 defensive item or flash/heal when a shaco tries to burst them. He's alright with a cheese build but they killed his viability anywhere past silver/gold.
: > [{quoted}](name=Bardful,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UyPxlMYI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-09T20:55:48.849+0000) > > I like the deceive because shaco is very frustrating to face and they need to deal with that. This way you will get 4.5 sec stealth which feels really nice with the w late game. If you get mobi boots you can run in place a box, ult and leave so they attack your clone. Even if you do reveal too early they have blown most of their cc on your clone. Besides if you don't like the low time early, put two points in q before putting a point in e. e doesn't help your clear much anyways and you will be able to max it at the same time as before. > Also shaco's q may have a longer timer but the 2.5 seconds bonus from attacking doesn't change even with cdr so if you q in somewhere late game if you have cdr you should have a lower cooldown on your q. Again, shaco is frustrating especially how he can just q away and even if you did follow him right he can place a box and stall until his q is up again. This allows a greater window of catching him out for escaping. I played a game with shaco sup and shaco jgl and the jungle one I got first blood. Also I played a game as bard jungle and the enemy shaco jungle almost solo carried with 20 kills on his team. His late game is total garbage without his early game. We are talking about shaco here. I have well over 2k games on shaco alone and trust me when i say if his early game he doesn't pull off a few kills he literally becomes irrelevant. I just played him and he is awful. That is the best way to put it. If they were going to ruin his early game potential then what they should have also done is gave his boxes a bit more damage or be able to aggro more hits from monsters because his clear is terrible aside from the beginning where you have the time to set up your boxes for a quick clear. And even that got nerfed cause apparently frog/golems spawn time takes longer to spawn now. They dont spawn at 1:40 anymore but blue/red does. 1.5 seconds on a deceive is nothing. It's enough to pull the deceive out. The problem with this is Shaco's damage depends on getting that backhit. His e doesn't do enough damage for the 1.5 second decieve to be a fair nerf. thats his gab closer and bread and butter. If that fails theres nothing else he can do but come back and try again. It wont even be worth it cause again, his decieve is 1.5 sec duration. You say " but his late game its much longer duration". His late game sucks terribly bad even with the current rework. Those boxes that spawn from his clone death? They are useless and do nothing late game. On top of this we now have these random wards that show jg location + players wards. They totally screwed a champ like Shaco. Riot, gave us this box spawn thing after his clone dies that does jack shit lol and calls that compensation for his poor early game. Riot, you nerfed a champ without giving it enough compensation. It's not so much that you ruined his kit that frustrates me. It's that you ruined him without balancing his kit. Shaco's clear is probably the worst in this game aside from the start. You're literally forced to hydra on shaco because of his poor clear times. There is something wrong when a champ is forced to build 1 item to get a decent jg clear-time. I find this nerf somewhat comical and waiting for Riot to say its a prank.
They won't Riot clearly wants to kill shaco.
iClone (EUNE)
: For shaco players and mains
There's really not much we can do besides asking Riot to buff the numbers on our abilities and giving us a decent passive instead of a mini crit on a 3 second CD. His late game isn't so bad if you do well early but due to the heavy nerfs to his early game that's now damn near impossible to pull off. Shaco now has to rely heavily on his autos to deal any damage and with a champion like shaco who's made out of paper that isn't exactly an option. unless they're trying to make shaco into a bruiser this rework simply won't do. I've only played him in normals so far and can already tell that in a ranked environment I'd get stomped by any champion with a fair amount of damage.
: Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - 6.22, big changes in the preseason!
Shaco feels a lot weaker than he previously was and his gank potential is almost non existent since now all your damage comes from your auto attacks instead of your abilities. Are there any plans to buff the numbers on his abilities? cause right now shaco feels a lot more like a bruiser than an assassin due to the fact all his damage is reliant on him auto attacking. I don't see how you thought making a squishy assassin this reliant on his auto attacks to deal any damage was a good idea, even with an AP build he feels clunky to play compared to his previous self.
: They don't want Shaco players to just be ganking everyone at level 3. It's partially to help out other players. Riot can't cater to everyone, sometimes things you don't like happen. Plus, you get the boxes tied in to your ult, now. That seems pretty good to me.
They're quite useless actually. I'd prefer if they were removed and we just got box stacking back and maybe some damage buffs on our abilities base damage.
Kr1sys (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ff4sk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mqbEobhR,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-11-09T19:22:25.541+0000) > > His changes do feel quite silly. > > I wouldn't mind them if I had some damage to work with but honestly shaco just feels A LOT weaker now and playing him in a ranked environment anywhere past silver would result in you completely getting stomped. > > I'll wait til they buff him a bit but til then I'll just practice him in normals to see what viable builds there are on him After playing AP, it seems almost right in line with AD. With the increased slow on rank one E, it makes more sense to level Q first to get the longer duration stealth, and if you're running AP you can also run CDR which will lower your Q and backstab cooldowns and let you stick to people a lot longer. I was actually able to gank top lane maokai and between his low cooldowns on all of his abilities I was still sticky enough to stay with him and E once he was actually low. Box duration helps a little, lets you zone better and cover more choke points, and you can't ignore that since you can hallucinate during stealth without being revealed it can be pretty good engage with a huge amount of damage as ap when it blows up, plus boxes.
I haven't tried him AP yet, been experimenting with the new armor pen(lethality?) and trying out recommended build/tank bruiser builds. He feels significantly weaker and definitely in need of some number changes on his abilities.
Dextix LT (EUNE)
: Asked Riot support for a free transfer from EUNE to EUW, you should too.
no stay away, we've got enough monkeys here as it is.
: His early game is trash now
pretty much, no damage to actually do anything til late game and even then you're still dealing very little damage in comparison to other champions
Saianna (EUNE)
: Played new Shaco.
It does feel like that to be honest. Assassins get nerf'd so they can't do their main purpose anymore which is assassinating a priority target mean while ADC can still mow through an entire team criting people for absurd amounts of damage while Riot does jack shit to tone them down. Honestly soon I wouldn't be surprised if they gut the divers too in the upcoming update. Can't have other classes being able to kill the precious ADC players despite the existence of warding, flash, mobile adc, cc, armor, magic resist, heal spell, and a second player dedicated to keeping them alive. Riot games ladies and gents, give them a round of applause.
: DMG Wise he did not feel weaker early just the Q is a bit annoying but then again usually i would just walk up to them and attack them and q after them to kill so it does not bother me much early when warding is rare anyways and later on i am already high enough that i can use the other paths with mobis. He is different definetly a bit weaker early but the mid and lategame more then make up for it. I just think many people here are to stuck in their ways to adept and cry instead which is the wrong mindset.
Probably, I'm personally ok with the changes but I do feel he needs some slight buffs to his early to help him clear, maybe some damage on his abilities and the ability to stack boxes again.
Barduchi (EUW)
: for me it feels kinda stuck. One idea would be to get the old ghost back and least be in range to do a good gank, but still, by current numbers, it just doesnt do dmg. Your strongest early dmg is your ignite... Plan b d be to farm the jungle, which but is to powerful for you, since your camp capabilities are downed also. At max q + passive, you do less than you would before[The +1s on q is kinda beside the point; you re supposed to take risks]. Your w fear doesnt apply to dashes. Your e is weaker till mid/late game compared to the old one, but it still doesnt make up for the other lost stats. For an all stat nerf, you got a more responsive clone, whom can clear wards, neat... _______________________ Since the clone s all you got now, making him bigger with bonuses is the only way to go. Tank bruiser shaco... _______________________ The fact that they cant detect you late, wheres i even can place boxes in invi, turns this more towards a low brain high gain game. No wonder so many animals are found among the player base.. .
Yeah he did feel quite strong as a tank/bruiser type late game but I don't know if that'd be viable in a ranked environment. I've only played him in normals and people in normals are generally braindead so it's no surprise I did well on him. I think he just needs some changes on his numbers and maybe a better passive/preferably the old one. Also would like if they let us stack boxes again since now it's harder to clear the jungle efficiently.
Kr1sys (NA)
: The changes are a bit silly, I like that they gave him some later game power, the Q duration late lets you actually get in and initiate some fights with the new clone/boxes. I wish the AI was somewhat close to Tibbers so it just wouldn't afk if you die. Q early though does nothing. 1.5 second stealth gives you nothing. W not stacking makes for some stupid interaction when trying to kill camps, I've had buffs spawn and the boxes aren't in range because of their proximity. Boxes not stacking really takes away their ability to do damage consistently. E doesn't do anything unless their low, and even then it feels weaker than the old version since old Backstab is gone. R's boxes just don't work, they still have the terrible AI tied to regular boxes, so the fear is the only reliable thing with them, although they can still easily get one shot too. I'm still doing well with him as AD, going to try AP since a lot of the scalings and damage is tied to it.
His changes do feel quite silly. I wouldn't mind them if I had some damage to work with but honestly shaco just feels A LOT weaker now and playing him in a ranked environment anywhere past silver would result in you completely getting stomped. I'll wait til they buff him a bit but til then I'll just practice him in normals to see what viable builds there are on him
HollowMimic (EUNE)
: Shaco's Q still has 14 secs cooldown
Yeah same here, think it might be a typo
: I don't know what you guys have been running but he felt really damn strong in the game where i played him. His early was bad and we where losing but mid and lategame he got really ridicolous. They just changed his point of power and we have to get used to the change. Gonna try ap Shaco next could be interesting as well with 50% ap ratio on Q.
Yeah he's alright late game but you can't deny that his clearing got worse and his ganks are a lot harder to execute due to there being no base damage on your abilities and they only deal a small amounts of damage on top of the same damage your autos do
Victusify (EUNE)
: Just do what Shaclone did - since he is best shaco ~~cancer~~ player - quit league. That's all u need to know about shaco changes.
You're a one trick zyra player, why are you even commenting on something that has nothing to do with you?
: I'm sure with some numbers tuning it'll be fine in the sense that it'll be functional. I don't like it though. I don't think it adds anything to his character or enhances his theme or fantasy. I think he has outright lost a lot of the synergy within his abilities that he used to have. TBH, 20thCenturyFaux's design doesn't feel particularly clever or elegant. For example, Shaco's Q CD is now 14s but he gets 3s off it if he hits someone with Backstab. It's functional, but then so is having a 11s CD that requires you to attack _while invis_ to crit. The latter has a shorter window of opportunity, but... isn't that called counterplay? It also irks me to no end that 20thCenturyFaux's solution to 'toning down his early ganks' was to nerf his invis duration rather than, IDK, make his puff of smoke more colorful and larger, and emphasize his evil laugh upon disappearing (making enemies able to hear it within a huge range)? The former works, sure, but it's not more counterplay - it's just a weaker spell. The latter actually gives sharp and wary players a chance to react, while at the same time giving Shaco a way to mind-game his opponents even harder. sigh Riot, please. {{champion:35}}
I agree, the whole rework does feel like an attempt to just nerf shaco but honestly even with shaco's abilities gutted and his synergy with his items and abilities is gone I'm still gonna play the fuck out of this champion and demand they either buff his damage on his abilities or revert the changes.
Rioter Comments
: One Thing That I Think Shaco Needs . . .
What he needs is a slight buff to his overall damage cause right now he'll be lucky to get 80% of a squishies health with a full rotation. I mean shaco is a gank reliant champion, taking away his ganking power and then implementing changes to jungle timers and jungle creeps that make it harder for a squishy none sustain jungler to farm isn't gonna give him many options besides playing as an AP laner.
: Look at the tank masteries and then try to complain about ranged champions.
Tanks have to actually get to you to deal any damage. An adc can crit you for 500 damage with 1 auto from behind the safety of his minion wave. Unless it's jihn, then he crits you for 1k on his 4th shot.
: "Strong in early game, Falls off in late game.Yeah"
Riot loves pandering to their ADC mains. Why do you think half the assassins got nerf'd into the ground?
Meddler (NA)
: Planned release is around midnight tomorrow for the NA server (so about 24 hours from now). Some other regions will get the patch earlier based off the deploy order (I think Russia's up first, though wouldn't swear to it). As a general note as with other pre-seasons it's likely that, due to the sheer number of things being changed and the way those things are interconnected, balance on at least a couple of things will be noticeably off. That will mean at least some of the assassins for example will probably need buffs or nerfs pretty quickly. We'll be working to address whatever crops up in the next patch, odds are though that some champs will look way too weak or way too strong for a little bit though. TLDR: Balance on some stuff will probably be significantly off for a couple of weeks, we'll be working on it quickly.
Any comments on Shaco or Akali?
: "We're increasing the burst windows for Assassins for counterplay"
Riot loves pandering to the whiniest and most toxic players this community has to offer. Now that assassins are gutted, enjoy having ADC's mowing down your team since there won't be anybody on your team able to get close enough to shutting them down.. What happened to balance Riot? why so much favoritism?
: Can Riot's VGU team talk to Shaco/Akali players before their full VGU is designed?
Honestly if Riot discussed any changes with the playerbase rather than just doing it and ignoring them * Cough Cough * Dynamic queue * Cough * the game would be a lot better.
: I want to see them brought down to the level of everyone else as completely vulnerable to meta changes making them out of style. But first they would have to be brought down lower then other classes until they disappear and worked back up to see where the line of optional actually is.
Honestly I just want them to not be so broken. Riot is biased towards them and they've always been meta, never has the marksmen role been considered weak or irrelevant to the outcome of the game meanwhile every other role has had their fair share of being made useless by Riot.
: they were intended to be an important part of the team ever since the first real MOBA
Except they weren't. Long range ADC champions were supposed to be used for sieging turrets, dealing a fair amount of damage in teamfights. Not completely ace a team, shred their tank, kill their assassin with 2 autos, kite their bruiser, literally outburst their burst mage, and snowball out of control harder than any other champion of any class. ADC shouldn't have that much power especially when they're ranged and capable of kiting.
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