: He is basically suggesting to rework Tahm Kench to give him the ultimate Zac got with the tank update, which they are reverting. So he wants Tahm to be able to swallow the enemy team and kidnap them to another place, instead of his current ultimate.
Yes sir! I think Tahm is always going to have some presence in pro play like other global champs that are strong with team coordination like Ryze, Galio, Shen, etc. His Devour makes it even harder to balance him. If the had a more high impact ulti that wasnt global, you could probably shift even more power out of his Devouer for it, and it would still maintain his peeling play pattern, as well as supporting his overall theme of the river king ferry man.
Rioter Comments
: I know it's outside of the mod's control, but this aspect of the boards is pretty disappointing
There is barely any value to the boards with its current visibility system. A lot of high potential threads get cut short before they can even get off the ground, thanks to trolls and contrarians here. It literally doesnt matter what the subject or question is, board trolls will jump on a post, downvote it, and turn it into some warped exercise in trying to prove an OP wrong, even when the OP is doing something like asking for advice, or proposing new ideas. Something is warped in your brain when you cant even look at normal posts without turning every one into an argument. Which is sad on two fronts. Firstly it pollutes any value that could be derived from the boards, so developers, designers, and community managers are less likely to even bother with coming here. And the second sad point is that if this is your primary outlet to try and make yourself feel superior to others... well that says a lot more about you than it does people trying to have an adult conversation here. Overall, its just cheating everyone out of something that could have been a valuable resource.
: 3-7 in my last 10 ranked games, getting ACE or MVP almost every game, can't climb, please help
First off, are you trying to climb in solo q or in flex q? Because in Solo Q, you have a 55-ish win rate in this season and last season in solo Q. Your flex q is lower, so I'm not sure what the difference there is. But with a 55% you are going to climb, despite whatever loss streaks you are forced into. You would have climbed more last season, but it was polluted a little bit by playing other champions which dragged down your overall win rate. Literally if you don't group with people and only play Karthus and maybe 1 or 2 autofill champs, you are going to climb. Just keep in mind that it takes a lot of games to settle to where you might expect to be.
: Fair comment. Karthus isn't always the best pick. But I find it interesting that you say that Karthus will die a lot by design, but then other people are telling me that I have to avoid dying in order to win. So, which is it?
It's an evaluation every time. You can die when it makes sense to. I'm a support player, so there are games where I die more than I normally would, because my death might secure a double kill for my ADC, or maybe I can body block the jungler and die in place of my ADC (preventing them from losing out on XP and gold). If you die in a fight that kills the opposing jungler, cripples the rest of the opposing team, while your team has 3 healthy players left, and Baron is up, then that death was well worth it. If you are killing yourself in teamfights where only one person is left alive and your team isnt even going to get some tower damage out of it, then that wasnt worth.
: > [{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-05-15T14:44:19.218+0000) > > Or give his ultimate global range. > > If they make another Pyke i'm driving my car off a bridge Now come and tell me Pyke doesn't require skill tests tho.
I agree, Pyke definitely requires skill tests, but I'm hoping Riot can do that for the Enchanter type champs too. My frustration with Pyke comes from the fact that there isn't really a vulnerability window if he fails his engage. And you cant exactly poke him when hes fishing for hooks either. Not a lot of ways to punish him for how much upside his initiation has.
: > [{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-05-15T13:56:17.658+0000) > > I thought Yuumi was a terrible champion on paper, but she's actually even worse in game, and I am at a total loss on how a champ like this could be improved without breaking her. > > Her simplistic kit not only makes her feel like the vanilla latte of support champions (which nobody was asking for), but it also means that she has about the same balance flexibility as Garen. She's basically just a bag of bonus stats with a gimmicky skillshot, and an ultimate that's almost impossible to miss with. > > Point and click shields are some of the most dated, and least interactive abilities in this game, and because of that, the Enchanter class desperately needs more skill tests added to it, before we accidentally fall into another Ardent Censer meta. > > Year after year, I see so many overloaded kits coming out for every class except Enchanters, and now we get Yuumi - the champion that makes me feel like I got served a hamburger while seated in a Mexican restaurant. > > Can Riot please just start putting serious resources into modernizing Enchanter kits and giving them some interesting skill tests? Plus, and nobody is mentioning this very simple fact; It's a lame ass, uninspired, stupid, "Magical Cat". What the fuck are Riot smoking? It's no "Xerath, the Magus Ascendant!" or "Leona, the Radiant Dawn!". Nope. Just.... You Me....the "Magical Cat".
For real dude. The champ as a whole feels really lazy and uninspired. It feels like a really flat cartoon character with a kit to match. The magical cat thats basically just a magical hat for real champions to wear.
: It's Pika Fox man, he takes the contrarian position in literally every thread he posts in. Best to not waste your time.
Vekkna (NA)
: Aren't these dudes kind of what you're looking for? {{champion:497}} {{champion:432}}
{{champion:432}} To me Bard represents the highest end of Support utility. He's a generalist that can fit into a lot of different categories, but hes not a straight up protective Enchanter, per se. He can engage at range, create flanks and ganks, assist tower dives, complicate enemy objectives, etc. He's pretty much a swiss army knife, even moreso than Thresh. Since he can do so many different things, his defensive utility isnt as high impact as someone like Soraka or Janna. Bar's kit is broad but shallow, and I'm hoping to see something more narrow and deeper, if that makes sense. {{champion:497}} Rakan is actually really damn close to what would be an insanely good enchanter, but most of his power budget is spent on his hard engage, rather than being a protective peeler. I agree though, that hes a phenomenal example of a creatively designed, high mastery support champ. If Riot could make a straight enchanter with the same level of depth, I would be tickled pink.
: > [{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-15T15:52:53.940+0000) > > The entire point of the post is me requesting a champ. When the players offer feedback and requests, it lets Riot know what their players want. > > Why are you trying to start shit when there is no shit to be started? you are the one trying to start shit. They will release the champions as they come. The next support champion isn't going to be for a while and I highly doubt it'll be an enchanter. "it let's riot know what players want" well... players want simple champions, overloaded champions, broken as heck champions, weak champions, fun champions... etc, etc, etc. ok cool, now you do any of those and everyone else will complain, no matter which one you choose everyone else who doesn't fall in the "I want these specific type of champion" will complain. Literally nothing they do will please anyone anymore and everyone wants something different.
That's how communities work, friend. There are tons of people here with complaints about Yasuo, and there are tons of people who also support Yasuo - it's up to Riot to parse out what all the feedback means for their game. You are kind of creating an entity with multiple personalities out of the community at large, when in reality, it has a ton of people with a ton of differing opinions. If you think there will ever be a point where anything created by man in this world would elicit zero complaints from all humans across the entire planet... well, that might be a really long wait.
: With all due respect, I have to question this: > Her simplistic kit not only makes her feel like the vanilla latte of support champions (which nobody was asking for) I'm sorry but _huh_? You try to make this point as though most of the supports in solo q _aren't_ inherently easy. There are some who are **much** more complex than many of their counterparts, however, there is still the grand majority of them who are almost _overly_ simplistic (see: {{champion:99}}, {{champion:37}}, {{champion:16}}, {{champion:53}}, {{champion:40}}, {{champion:12}}, to name a few). So I'd say that it is perfectly _a-okay_ Riot released yet another easy-to-play support champion into the mix because, in my opinion, that is not _really_ Yuumi's downfall. Instead, I'd say that her biggest problem and why she's not viable or enjoyable right off the bat is that her base stats -- to be blunt -- really suck, and her kit is a little all over the place. To me, she sounded absolutely OP on paper, yet somehow Riot couldn't execute that same level of OP-ness in practice as well. /shrugs
Don't get me wrong, my main thrust is that I want more complexity added to Enchanters, and I think Yuumi is not only yet another simplistic enchanter, she also has an insanely boring kit. At least with a champion like Soraka, or Lux, or Janna, some kind of aim is required in order to land some of their spells, there's some more nuance to them besides being a glorified stat-hat. I think the Enchanter class is already suffering from a lack of mechanical skill tests, and Yuumi is just one more boring ass kit that is getting thrown onto the pile. There is space on the roster for an Enchanter with a really high mastery curve, and this could have been the time for Riot to fill that void - and Yuumi fails to close that gap. I don't see her adding anything amazing to the Enchanter role that wasn't already done by other champs that were already there before her. If you want a good example, look at the Taric rework. There are other Vanguard supports like Braum and Tahm Kench, and pre-rework Taric had a pretty similar playstyle to those guys. But reworked Taric created an entirely different way to play a Tank support, which adds a lot of variety to the game and has given rise to some (admittedly cheesy) new game strategies. I would love to see Riot create an Enchanter with the same depth of thought that they did with Taric. I don't think that's too much to ask, given how much people hate the Enchanter's hallmark of point and click shields.
: > [{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-05-15T15:27:52.784+0000) > > I'm all for overloaded champions if every role gets them and there are some counters to those champions. ok... so wait for them to make your beloved overloaded champion instead of whining because they haven't made it yet?
The entire point of the post is me requesting a champ. When the players offer feedback and requests, it lets Riot know what their players want. Why are you trying to start shit when there is no shit to be started?
: riot releases an "overloaded" champion "rito y u mak only LC$ champions!" riot releases a relative simple champion "rito y u mak simple champion!"
I'm all for overloaded champions if every role gets them and there are some counters to those champions.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Or you could get good at the champ and stop trying to claim a skill check/test isnt a skill check/test. Just because its easy to press a button with a low skill floor doesnt mean it doesnt also have a high skill ceiling.
You talk pretty tough hiding behind an unranked account. How about you put your money where your mouth is and post on your main? Show the world how awesome of a support player you are. You seem to be an expert support ready to dole out tips on the boards. Let's see if you know what it is you are talking about. Let's see that Yuumi win rate of yours
Pika Fox (NA)
: Youve either never played yuumi, or never played her well then. Her playstyle and kit changes quite a bit between attached and non. Non you have access to passive, a straight skillshot, low defensive stats but good repositioning near an ally, self heal. On an ally you no longer have to focus on dodging skillshots and gain access to numerous buff enhancements, such as shield gifting, heal gifting, adaptive force sharing. You also have the ability to maneuver Q, dash/tele/stealth following etc, but lose access to self casts and autos(and thereby passive). You also lose a valid target for the enemy, which can be good and bad.
: Careful. They’ll put ct on the next support and we’ll get another Pyke. Except this time his execute will double as a escape and put him under the nearest friendly turret or something.
Or give his ultimate global range. If they make another Pyke i'm driving my car off a bridge
: > [{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RYOnyQQk,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-05-15T14:12:54.822+0000) > > Point and click abilities are the lowest skill test in the game. The mechanics required to successfully cast a point and click spell are similar to the mechanics required to buy an item from the store, or move your character around on the map. > > You are conflating a skill test with a game decision - the two are completely different aspects that effect one another. > > Shielding someone with Lulu is a simplistic skill test, and the forethought that you put into timing that spell is not a mechanical test - it's a result of your observational ability and game knowledge. > > If you know when to shield someone with Lulu, then you know when to shield someone with Lux, but the difference is that with Lux, you have to actually aim your spell - which makes it a greater skill test than Lulu's shield. > > So if you want to start calling point and click spells "skill tests," you should also acknowledge that it's literally at the bottom rung of every single type of skill test in this game - and that one's efficacy of said spells are more of a result of the player's game knowledge than them being able to meet the mechanical demands of that skill. There is actually a degree of skill required with Yuumi’s shielding. Knowing when it is safe to AA for her passive, managing it’s lengthy cooldown so there are only very small windows where no shield is currently up, all while managing her extremely high early-game mana costs.
Re-read the comment you quoted. I dont think you are following that there is a difference between the two things I'm talking about: - Skill Tests (point and click spell, skill shot, ground target spell, etc.) - Game Decisions (Timing a spell at the perfect moment) For example, look at Soraka's Silence spell. It's instant cast and has a large area of effect, making it a mechanically easy spell to land - this means that the skill test to hit with this spell is pretty low. But in order to use it effectively, you have to exercise a smart decision around its timing. Because while the spell is easy to immediately put where you want to, if you use it at the wrong time, it's completely wasted. You can be an expert at landing your silence every time, but if you wait to place it directly under Zed as he's casting his Deathmark, you've created a significantly higher level of impact with it. In order to use Soraka Silence to the fullest, you have to both pass an easy skill test, as well as make a smart decision as to when you are going to time its usage. These are the two general aspects that play into most spells in this game.
Pika Fox (NA)
: Which is entirely not true for a champion whos design is essentially two stances; attached and not, with incentives to use both, one of which is far safer. Jayce, nid and elise' ults are simple stance changes, but completely alter playstyle. The ability to fluidly use both at the same time is a skill test.
Jayce and Elise both have 3 completely different spells when they change forms, and they can be used to create different combinations of delivering damage, crowd control, or escapes. They also create scenarios where one forms spell can easily flow into another forms spell. Yuumi being attached isnt a stance so much as it is a repositioning tool and stat buff. The only thing that changes is her Q, and even then, its not changing the spells functionality, just it's targetting. I think you are having trouble separating out decision making from skill tests
Pika Fox (NA)
: Interesting skill tests.... You mean like jumping off team member to proc shield to jump back on and supply heals, or when to jump off to add auto damage to the lane, or jumping off to extend Q range?
Point and click abilities are the lowest skill test in the game. The mechanics required to successfully cast a point and click spell are similar to the mechanics required to buy an item from the store, or move your character around on the map. You are conflating a skill test with a game decision - the two are completely different aspects that effect one another. Shielding someone with Lulu is a simplistic skill test, and the forethought that you put into timing that spell is not a mechanical test - it's a result of your observational ability and game knowledge. If you know when to shield someone with Lulu, then you know when to shield someone with Lux, but the difference is that with Lux, you have to actually aim your spell - which makes it a greater skill test than Lulu's shield. So if you want to start calling point and click spells "skill tests," you should also acknowledge that it's literally at the bottom rung of every single type of skill test in this game - and that one's efficacy of said spells are more of a result of the player's game knowledge than them being able to meet the mechanical demands of that skill.
Rioter Comments
iPrawn (NA)
: Ssssh, don't tell anyone that Jax pressed R. it's a secret!
Most champions should feature roughly the same amount of clarity for their high inpact ultimates. Champions with cloudy ultimate effects certainly gain some hidden power out of it. The Veigar case is especially troublesome.
: Except there are damage dealers centred around point and clicks. The entire role of adc.
Im talking about champion spells and abilities in this instance, not auto attacking champions. But if you would rather respond to the title rather than reading the contents of my post, and having a nuanced discussion about champ design, then congrats, you've gotten yourself an internet point.
Rioter Comments
: IF The only thing that Matters is MMR and Rank Doesnt Worth Shit Then show me My MMR not my RANK
I get that Riot doesnt want to shove your elo in your face, so fine, keep it out of the client. But why bother taking the step to conceal it from people that are trying to improve through 3rd party resources? Content creators are allowed to stream and post videos on strategy. Analysis sites are allowed to post win rates, tier lists, and personalized evaluation. If there is an entire commumity dedicated to becoming better at your game, why would you bury a metric that's only sought after by enthusiasts who are looking to improve? Hiding MMR creates a point of frustration and confusion in the players who are serious about trying to improve themselves.
: I wouldn't mind getting rid of minion blockages. The champions are twice the size of minions... they should be able to just step over them. Minion blockages have several times been the reason someone lands a skill shot on me... the damn minions wont get out of the way for me to dodge.
Either that or a champion shoves friendly minions out of the way. It makes more sense that the bigger unit displaces smaller friendly units. If Darius can execute other champions with authority, he sure as shit shouldn't be forced to repath on account of some tiny little minions.
Galiö (NA)
: I looked into it. He is duo with someone with decent MMR (for that level) and your MMR is awful cause your winrate is bad. So the matchmaking was fine. Problem solved.
How is it that you can see what someone's MMR is? Because unless I'm missing something huge Riot revoked all visibility into MMR, and W/L doesnt directly translate into MMR. Case in point, I have two accounts, and last year my account with the higher MMR actually had a negative win rate, while my account with better win rate had a lower MMR, with both accounts having roughly the same number of games played. Wins and Loss rate doesnt directly to translate to MMR, and unless you are the freaking Gandalf of the matchmaker system, I would venture to say that you might not know what the hell it is you are talking about.
Rioter Comments
: This reply was not to you. But if you insist.... The only top laners who dont end up being more useful split pushing are the ones who are full on tanks with no damage. If the top has to be in the team fight, then your entire team comp is revolving around it (for example malphite for a Yasuo) or they are a champion that works best in team fights (Neeko). If that combo does not work well enough, you lose anyways. Otherwise, that top laner is pretty much able to 1v3 already and just needs a little distraction to kill the rest. So no, not really. How most top laners play atm and the ones they play.... pretty much they just split, or they SHOULD just split. Junglers? Explain how im wrong in either they are either gank or farm oriented. Even think back to Devourer period. They limited afk farming to make it so that when you DO afk farm.... it is not rewarded more than gank only. Kayn is an example of someone who is a gank only oriented person. Nocturne as well. Many of them would NOT be able to take out towers themselves, and it is a toss up of whos more ahead in gold if they end up fighting eachother most of the time. What skill expression does Nocturne have? Apart from timing. There is VERY few champions in the game that they can say they have more than just timing on their side for their champion. Mid? Ask a mid laner. Ive talked to several and the only ones who do not say that are the ones who play things like Anivia where it is more about control and poke rather than burst...which what mid laner wants to play that? Sheesh. (That last bit seems to be the opinion of most players). If something isnt able to be bursted into oblivion? Mid laners: nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf. A vast majority of them are the ones that are wanting nerfs to hit champions as long as its not their own! You are right, supports are not useless. However that is what the general public thinks. That they are brain dead and useless and have no reason to have a role in general. The reason why is because people do not bother playing the champions they are complaining about. When they do, they play it for maybe 10 games and consider themselves an expert.
This guy is either a troll or hes too concerned about feeling like hes right, moreso than actually making any coherent points. Its like trying to explain chess to someone who barely has a grasp on tic tac toe
FkValeRly (EUW)
: champions usually don't have both a shield and a heal on their kit and when they do one of em is usually shit, this is also true for yuumi and I don't see anything wrong with it.
Rakans shield AP ratio is nuts and he has a pretty decent heal as well.
: So in all that time, do you: 1) use Q and E alternating to get to lane faster for Nami? 2) Use E to help your ADC farm the casters under turret? 3) Stay slightly behind your team to ulti them into a fight for double the move speed and then proceed to knock up and slow the enemy? 4) Do you pick and choose between a more defencive supporty or more offensive bursty Sona? 5) Do you pick and choose whether to just empowered Q on Sona rather than damage reduce/move speed reduce the enemy? 6) Do you empower yourself with your E on Nami to make it easier to hit your Q? 7) Do you empower an MF's bounce shot so that it applies the procs? Those are all forms of skill experession. It is not the "fanciest", but you can always tell when someone knows their champion because they know the nuiances with them. Most of the supports you listed, if you go in at the wrong time... or if you mess up at all... then it could be the difference between saving an ally, saving an enemy, killing an ally, or killing an enemy. Heck, its funny when Soraka plants a E when an Alistar is going to charge in with his headbutt so that he does not get the knock up but still gets the knock back. There is many examples of this of just how harshly even other supports think of eachother. They never have a clue what goes into playing the champion.... they just know "thats what they do". _____ With Yuumi, She will have her own characteristics. The bad ones will ALWAYS be attached. The good ones will probably be firing their Q, going onto an ally, moving the Q into the enemy because then it will wrap around (just an assumption of something she might be able to do). They will be popping on and off of the ally to do the autos, they will be juking shots by going onto the ally. Bad ones will have a Maokai going wiyh Twisted Advance (his targetted root where he follows the champion) and bring him right onto the ally ADC. Getting the ADC instantly stuck with a Maokai right on them. Could be good or bad depending on the situation. There is a lot of skill expression for many champions that can be exploited and used against them if you do it right. You can even flash with a Thresh following you with the hook. You can flash after Leona gets you with her E but before she pulls herself to you. After that, you can root/stun/bind her under a tower or something.
A lot of these examples are cases involving more game knowledge than skill expression. A Lulu player with game knowledge knows to buffer polymorph on a LeBlanc about to dive your carry. A Lee Sin with high skill in his champion is able to ward jump past you and flash kick you into the enemy team. An Azir player with a high level of skill can pull off a Shurima Shuffle every time. The case with Lulu requires game knowledge on when to use her spell, while the Lee Sin and Azir need the same level of timing knowledge, in addition to having the mechanical expertise at chaining a number of spells in precise directions, in order to execute their play successfully. There are definitely differences in knowledge expression for most supports, but the "skill" portion ends with their ability to time a single point and click. Huge difference between the two
: Part 1 of 2: Yuumi's reveal highlights massive issues with the support roster
This is a really good point that I've not considered before. If I could build more off of what you're saying, most abilities in this game require a skill test of some kind, usually it's a skill shot with some kind of differentiating behavior, or its ground targeted, etc. Outside of timing, there is generslly no skill test for shielding or healing an ally. The outlier for this is Rakan's heal - not only does he have to land a moderate speed skill shot, he then had a limited window to reach the ally he wants to heal. Taric's heal is also gated behind his Bravado passive, as well as his Bastion thether. When you look at free healing and shielding enchanters in light of that, its kind of highlights the difference between a more modern enchanter kit and a dated enchanter kit. I've been hollering for a long time that we need more high skill cap enchanters, and I often get downvoted for it. (No idea why proposing to add more mastery expression is a bad idea) But truthfully, when you look at the mechanical skill required to bull off a Gangplank Triple barrel, or playing Akali's shroud and passive to her maximim benefit, there really is no equivalent in the Enchanter role. Its a dated class that needs some updates badly - becausr I really dont think the community would appreciate Janna ever becoming meta again (as she is now).
Rioter Comments
: Sigh, I'm forced to be a support main.
I hate to break it to you, but there aren't nearly as many autofills in the bot lane as it feels like. Everyone likes to talk shit about "feeding bot lanes," but the truth of the matter is that a 2v2 is going to happen, and if you lose that, your lane is basically blown unless your jg intervenes. But really, you don't even have to 2v2 to lose the lane. Sometimes you collapse on an invading jungler to protect your own jungle, but then lose out on some XP, so the lane is blown. Sometimes one of you gets to the lane late and doesn't get to level 2 in time, so the lane is blown Sometimes you take a little bit of damage during a level 1 skirmish and you arrive to lane hurt, so you get pressured off the wave, and then your lane is blown. Once that advantage is given, unless your jungler comes and ganks, there is very little you can do to change the direction of the lane, unless your opponents royally fuck up. Oh and while you are behind, you have zero lane priority, which means that the enemy mid laner can invade the shit out of your jungle without punishment, or they can just 4 man the dragon while you are stuck at tower. Another fun bonus is that you arent even able scoot out of the lane long enough to ward against the guaranteed 4 man dive headed for your ass. TLDR; The slightest ripples will completely tilt the bot lane in or out of your favor, and it's insanely hard to pull things back to neutral. This has never been the case for all that I can remember, and a lot of players haven't adjusted to this busted ass lane snowball. So yea, bot lanes feed, because there's almost never an even lane there anymore, thanks to the fact that the slightest breeze will fuck you out of your CS and your tower, and there's fuckall you can do about it.
: Let's Be Real Here. New Champions are Just Older Ones With Better Stuff.
I worry that the calculation is that its cheaper to make a new champion, than it is to redesign an old champion and update all of their skins. That would suck, because most of the champions on the roster could use some modernization. If every new champ keeps coming out with a dash or stealth, why not rework older champs and give them tools to limit mobility with grounding or a dash stopping field like Poppy? Why dont they rework an Enchanter out of point and click spells like they did with Taric?
: No No champion has a must have Some do but MOST don't bother This is why guides exist This is why META is a thing You are missing a lot 90% of the champions can use 3 or more keystones And if they understand the changes in the play patterns they have to make they will make those strategic decisions For example Ahri has a glacial augment Aery Comet and Elec choices Aert comet play the same way elec plays another and glacial completely changes her build It's your choice if you want to go blindly elec without thinking every game But removing that choice from others just because you are too stubborn to realize it is a big no no
Yea that makes sense. Especially about the Glacial Augment builds. Changes a lot for the player and their opponent
Doge2020 (NA)
: My best example would be Nasus. His grasp build is the most efficient because it helps him sustain in hard melee lanes and the extra rune slots from resolve makes him tankier in said lane. His conq build is very aggressive, it gives him lots of power in extended fights due to the true damage conversion and more sustain too. His Aery/Comet build is more poke based with E max and is usually used during the early game when he is in a ranged matchup or an extremely hard melee matchup. Last is his Kleptomancy build, a rather dead build that can give him extra gold and more fighting power with the myriad of consumables that can be gained from klepto. The unique runes from inspiration helps nasus a lot in and out of lane (biscuits being the best example when the enemy laner pokes a lot). Nasus and every other champ has many keystone options and builds, this is why off-meta stuff exists, but these champs also have a very efficient or very popular build that is recommended by guides for those that don’t know the rune options of a champ. There may be a single build that a champ runs for lots of games, that doesn’t mean it is that champ’s only choice, it just means that is the champ’s most efficient choice to get the best results.
Rioter Comments
: {{champion:432}} {{champion:555}} {{champion:223}}
Note that the second those champs had any real impact after their initial sales, Riot nerfed the shit out of them. Meanwhile, 4 years of Yasuo complaints continue to be ignored.
: You nerfed champions right away with a lower win rate/annoying to face. Can you stop treating us like we are dumb, and just say you don't want to nerf vayne or riven cuz it brings viewers and people enjoy those champs. she's very strong.
Im still trying to understand statistically what the "critical threshold" that secures the decision to apply nerfs to a particular champion. We used to get numbers before from the team about what pick / ban / win rate combinations made a particular champion an outlier. Now it just feels like I'm hearing abstract management speak.
: But when Riot does create an original champion that is not a copy paste champion, everyone loses their mind saying shit like "breaking the absolute rules of the game". https://media.giphy.com/media/AVpE6BqnOvbzi/giphy.gif
Yea the problem is that Riot only does that with Assassin and Fighters and Bruisers. You will never see a support impact the game in the same way that a Yasuo or Akali does.
: i'm kinda sick of how hard this community hates on the champs that take passion to master and play
I think champions that take a long time to master are good for the game. I just want them more evenly distributed among the roles. Support doesn't have anything with a complexity level equivalent to an Akali, Irelia, Yasuo, etc. And I really wish that would change, but it's not. We will continue to get basic ass champions for as long as this game is alive. Maybe its because whenever someone mentions this fact, all the idiots swarm on you shouting "Thresh!" and "Bard!" when anyone with a cursory understanding of champion mechanics would never come to that conclusion
Ludicol0 (NA)
: yuumi is lazy
I agree that her design is pretty goddamn lazy. Look at how long it takes to fully explain everything that's in Akali's or Irelia's kits, then look at Yuumis - it all can fit on a single index card! WOW! I'm pissed that support gets the shaft yet again with a basic ass champion. And I'm pissed that the last support before this was a fucking assassin that nobody asked for. But good luck trying to make that argument here. All the fucking cat-licking, soy boi, Yuumi lovers are going to downvote this shit out of any post remotely critical of her. God forbid they look at the bigger picture.
: Barrel chain, yes. Hitting Q three times, not so much. But as I mentioned elsewhere, there are skill based factors built into the abilities of her kit. And it's not like every champion has to be as high of a skill cap as someone like Bard, Ivern, or Xerath.
That's kind of the original point I'm attempting to make - that most of the enchanters are decision all based, not skill-cap based, and that the class could benefit a lot from a new champion that represents that. This is a missed opportunity to create an enchanter with a really high skill cap - something that we know Riot is capable of because of releases and reworks like Akali, Irelia, Yasuo, etc. Of course, that doesnt really matter anymore because my post has gotten downvoted to hell, so any chances of a larger community discussion around this issue are slim to none.
: jumping the gun with no knowledge huh? i've been there, never ends well. careful how you treat your feet, you'll be eating them soon.
Or you could actually read my arguments and address them like some other commenters have
: She may have some simplicity, yes, and a kit as strange as hers needs some parts to be simple or else it's unplayable. That said, there's something about her Q that requires skill too, because it has additional affects the longer the projectile flies before hitting. Then her R also requires multiple strikes on the enemy to even CC them, so there are skill factors built into her kit. She's not going to be as point-and-shoot as Lulu is.
That's true. The missile could be a pretty big deal depending on how fast it is, or if there is any acceleration to it.
: i hope its a buff hat champ. i want my veigar to be like THANOS. having yummi is gonna either my glove or one of the infinity stones. soon riot soon will you make my veigar having attached by 4 champs one champ (4 inside) vs 5. I only used 1% of my power.
: You've clearly never played Abathur in Heroes of the Storm. Her kit may seem simple and shallow, but it will actually take quite a bit of coordination to get used to playing off of someone else's positioning, as well as how and when to pop off your spells to be help your ally. You have to rely on your allies to know where to be and when, it's not up to you, and that can be a terrifyingly daunting expectation.
You can have a shallow kit that still demands a good deal of game knowledge in order to be effective. Timing a shield or polymorph can be highly effective, but it still doesn't present you with same mechanical demands that lining up a barrel chain or setting up a Steel Tempest does
: The thing is, she won't be easy to play. You are relying nearly 100% on your ally to position you and them where you both need to be to be the most effective. That means that you have to place the utmost faith in your Vayne that she won't try to throw down in a 2 v 5 while you're attached to her. Furthermore, your aim can be completely at the mercy of how your ally is going to be moving, so it takes a good sense of prediction to guess how your ally and enemy will be moving so you can land your skill shots.
She's going to be easy to pilot, based on how simplistic her kit is. That isn't to say that she isn't going to have an impact. Yuumi's closest similarity is Lulu. Lulu has shallow kit, with very few skill tests on her abilities. If you time her spells properly however, she can have a significant impact in a game. This impact comes more from the player's game knowledge, than it does any actual mastery of their champion though. If you already have a general idea of the game and how the role works, it's not going to take very long to get the hang of a champion like Yuumi, because all of her abilities are very straightforward. I agree that there are new mechanics you will have to learn, but these are easily executed point and clicks that are reliant on your ally's positioning rather than your own, which is a hard cap on this champions skill expression. If your effective positioning is gated by the positioning of others, then you don't have nearly as much positional agency as you would have if you were playing another champion - that decision tree is now made for you by your allies. I ran into this when playing Braum - if my ally was in a stupid place, I could go and protect him and die too, or I could just walk away. But if my ally was smart about their positioning, then my protection became that much more impactful. The biggest variable for Braum's protection is where his ally chose to position themselves, moreso than where Braum has chosen to stand.
: How exactly can you make a high skill cap enchanter? Make their heals or shields skill shots? That didn't work out too well with Lux.
You wouldn't have to go that far to create a high skill cap enchanter. Skill shots are a possibility, and I would argue that at lower elos, Lux support is absolutely viable. But that aside, you can gate a champions healing or shielding behind skill tests that aren't a point and click. Similar to how Rakan needs to land his quill and then reposition in order to heal an ally. Given the rest of his kit with a knockup and an ally dash, that skill test isn't too terribly hard - but design along those lines add a challenge to actually delivering the heal. You could have an Enchanter heal function similarly to how redemption works. Ground targeted, so displacement would counter it, and enemies know where you will be moving to. And a delay so that it would be more useful vs slower damage, rather than assassination bursts. You could even do something like gangplanks barrels where you have to arrange nodes before they get destroyed in order to deliver a burst of healing. There are other ways you could kit out an enchanter that peels and protects without even giving them heals and shields. Areas of Blindness or disarm would be fantastic peel for an ADC, or concealment like Ivern's bush. Even if you gave an enchanter an obstacle spell like Anivias wall or Trundle's pillar, that would be huge. Or it could be something really weird like a short ranged spell that swaps places with your ADC (that they would obviously have to opt into). Or a sacrifice type spell that wrecks all of your defensive stats and move speed to give your ally a defensive boost. I don't think you really have to get that crazy in order to design an Enchanter that has a skillset that is a little harder to pull off. It's just a matter of creating interesting trade-offs and restrictions that make it more of a challenge than "click on friend to heal them."
: you realize that with her kit she's gonna be Rakan on steroids? Like, her W has zero cooldown if you dash between allies, her team fighting is gonna be dumb, and we don't have the recharge rate on her heal. She gets 2-charges, I can see her being a ridiculously high skill cap champ. Also unlike Soraka she will be hard/near impossible to burst down, bc I believe when she's attached she can't be targeted.
I'm talking about how shallow her kit is and how long it would take to master her, more than what her power level might be. Her play pattern isn't anything new to Enchanters. It's point and click shielding / healing with a large and telegraphed ultimate. Those all might be powerful abilities, but my argument is that her kit is really shallow and boring. Her kit is more basic to play than even Janna or Soraka, and I don't understand why the roster needs yet another basic-ass enchanter kit - especially when Riot shows over and over again that they arent shy about trying to break the game with new Fighters and Assassins. They could have done something really cool for Enchanters in the same way that Taric did for Wardens. But I guess with new champs, they calculated that a magical cat hat with a simple kit would sell well.
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ixi Josh Sand

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