: The Back and Fourth Karma Buffs/Nerfs Needs to Stop. Give Her a GU and Prioritize It.
Depressing news for mid Karma players, we've already felt left behind by Riot. I'm sure this buff will help her support role nicely, sitting at 48.19% win rate on op.gg right now. There are a lot of changes Riot could make to utilize Karma better, it just doesn't really seem like they're willing to. Back on the buff/nerf carousel we go...
: AP Ratios are way too high imo.
Perfectly good opinion and id completely agree. The benefit of this kit is that the damage is more spread out making it much easier to balance
: > Im curious as to the extent you intend for the first part of the passive, like a 1:1? 10% heal/shield bonus = 10% magic damage bonus? That's for the balance team to figure out. I could imagine a 1:1 to work, or even just a 1:2. > Im worried the empowered AAs, specifically how it refreshes on Karma/Ally hit would encourage the enemy to trade less and play more passive lanes. I don't see why it would do that? Just because she deals ~10 extra magic damage early game? It's like saying noone wants to trade with Orianna, because of her stacking magic damage... > I dont really like ground targetting it, as it removes counterplay from enemies. It doesn't explode on collision, so you can dodge into it (towards Karma). I also intend to have the projectile travel a bit slower, making it easier to dodge at max range. Additionally, it doesn't spawn on centered on the target, making escaping the second explosion easier in most cases. > I dont like the concept of additonal %damage taken and %damage reduced as it offers very little counterplay Well in this case, breaking the tether would be the counterplay. Nearly everyone has a dash these days anyways. > Mantra at the beginning was a core aspect of her, and idk if she'll feel like Kaema til she gets it. As I said in the further explanations, I won't fight hard for this. Or at all, probably. I think there are good arguments for why a lvl6 mantra makes her easier to balance, giving her a better midgame, but I realize that this is one aspect to her that has been around since S1, which I understand people are attached to. > I have issues with the kit, but its light years better than where Karma is now. Id prefer my kit, but id happily do this one. Fair point, I'd probably also take your kit over the current one, lol.
> That's for the balance team to figure out. I could imagine a 1:1 to work, or even just a 1:2. In the end, sure, but they didn't make your rework. > I don't see why it would do that? Just because she deals ~10 extra magic damage early game? It's like saying noone wants to trade with Orianna, because of her stacking magic damage... Its not the number, which is variable like it is in all reworks. Its the action. By attacking Karma or anyone around her, you'll be refreshing an passive that deals damage to you and eventually heals her. You'd want to leave her alone into you're ready to all in or CC her to death. Its not like saying no one wants to trade with Ori, cause Ori's passive is always on, and has to do multiple attacks to "wind up" its bonus. > It doesn't explode on collision, so you can dodge into it (towards Karma). I also intend to have the projectile travel a bit slower, making it easier to dodge at max range. Additionally, it doesn't spawn on centered on the target, making escaping the second explosion easier in most cases. It disables the ability to hide behind minions or having an ally block it. it turns off obstacles, but allows 1 more angle of dodging. It will absolutely explode at the center of where you put it, and if thats not on your target, you have yourself to blame. > Well in this case, breaking the tether would be the counterplay. Nearly everyone has a dash these days anyways. There's nothing you can build to get through the resistance and %damage amps are always nuts. Its only movement based counter play. *Nearly everyone has a dash these days* is kinda funny to hear when the slow in my rework was deemed by you to be too punishing for non mobile melee champs. Kinda weird this is your stance when the shoe is on the other foot.
: Karma - Forever a Divided Community?
> Passive Im curious as to the extent you intend for the first part of the passive, like a 1:1? 10% heal/shield bonus = 10% magic damage bonus? Im worried the empowered AAs, specifically how it refreshes on Karma/Ally hit would encourage the enemy to trade less and play more passive lanes. > RQ I dont really like ground targetting it, as it removes counterplay from enemies. They can no longer hide behind minions or other allies or even jungle monsters. > W/RW Tethering two others together *without one needing to be Karma* is a fun idea. I dont like the concept of additonal %damage taken and %damage reduced as it offers very little counterplay and is usually much stronger than it looks. I think this might be impossible to balance with % based stats on DR and Damage Amp. > E/RE My only complaint is having the MS on the shield. I like to play proactively, and if I MS buff an ally to get out of an attack, ive also wasted my shield, so i cant block the thing we cant avoid. Extra defenses on W help with that a little bit I suppose, but it just feels bad. Dig the rest of it, my revised shield bomb comes out something like this > Mantra Alarm bells rang in my head when I read it wasnt available at the beginning. With Karma, I usually think of Mantra and Duality as her main focuses, and this would cut them both out for half the early game. I realize theyre both still in the kit and id probably be able to adjust to it (passive offers some more early game power to make up for it) but that doesnt feel good. Mantra at the beginning was a core aspect of her, and idk if she'll feel like Karma til she gets it. Also, hello current passive hiding in the Mantra description. Yes you're a little different, but i see you. > Overall I have issues with the kit, but its light years better than where Karma is now. Id prefer my kit, but id happily do this one.
: > between having those visuals and having a healthier kit for Karma, we'd always choose the kit. Agreed! > You or your team may need you to activate it earlier than later, and I agree that at first people will probably hold onto mantra for too long That's fair. My issue is just, that Karma gains power from fighting, which seems... odd to me. I also dislike the current passive for that reason and am always in favour of a passive, that uses all components of her kit. Shielding and healing needs to be considered, imo. > The feels good moment for me with this ability is seeing the stacks go up for her Passive. Well, that's not quite my point, there is a game design need for making spells feel immersive, adding a certain "umpf" to projectiles. A Rioter once used Alistar as an example, because knocking up people wouldn't require it to have a slow, but it feels right to have champions slowed after flying through the air, as if needing a short time to regain their breath. That's another part of gamedesign than we usually talk about, but it's there. Immersion. > I don't want to throw components onto an ability for the sake of avoiding blandness I get that, but it's modern design standards. It also happens to work well with the position dependency of W. Hitting Q makes it easier to land W which makes it easier to hit RQ. Small things. That's the kind of elegant simplicity that you'd like, not necessarily in the spell by itself. Natural combos. > Making RQ easy to land while having its current duality would be too much I don't want it to be "easier" to land, but more reliably hit where you aim. It is usually accompanied by a travel speed reduction and the ability to dodge THROUGH the projectile towards Karma and the fact that the area doesn't spawn centered on the target, making the second part less likely to hit. I am also confused as to why you would rather go for the point and click spell and toss out the ground targeted AoE... do you feel it's easier to play against Vlad's Q or Vel'koz E? In terms of counterplay, that is? > The enemy target is slowed, and becomes more slowed the more Karma moves to them. Allies get the opposite of this effect, requiring more coordination. If the ally is sped up, but only if near Karma, then he will run away from Karma, nerfing his own movementspeed. If Karma gains no MS herself then coordination doesn't really exist on the base ability. On the other side a champion that is slowed by Karma, while Karma catches up (heh) to him, will either get away anyways or get slowed even more, making the spell somewhat binary and really feel-bad if they can't get away. My point is, that speedbuffs/slows that depend on the vicinity to something are hard to pull off. It's hard to argue that a speedbuff is useful if you need to stay close to something not of the same speed; and it's rather unfair to ask someone to get away from something that slows em more the worse he is doing, slowing him even more. > I think we just disagree on "blandness" and "change". It's my hard lesson from the last 4 years. People tend to react rather vile to the idea of taking away the MS on E. Most notably those who only know that side of her. All base shields in League now have a secondary effect and I think that's for a good reason. It's a flavour and identity thing, which is why I say "bland" in its absence. I do agree that one has to see the kit as a whole, not a single ability by itself, but even so I feel modern champion design dictates more depth than "just" a shield. Especially if you wanna have more infrequent mantras, compared to Old Karma, which had 1-2 mantras nearly all the time, turning E into part of a diverse toolbox, that had many simple, but creative choices to combine. > A favorite of mine was one that stored the damage dealt to it that explodes when broken or duration ended. I can see why, it does make sense and it feels karmic. I think it would work best as _bonus_ damage on top of a workable base damage > I'm not a huge fan of the missing%hp scaling on Karma's damage as that will make her have the "executioner" feeling. No no, the damage scales on the missing%hp of the SHIELDED target, the %health of the enemy is not factored in. I do not want her to have executing spells at all. I'd rather have her get current%hp damage than that. You know, to hurt the strong more than the weak etc. My rework/post is up btw https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/NMi7pdBz-karma-forever-a-divided-community Feel free to return my harsh criticism ^^'
> My issue is just, that Karma gains power from fighting, which seems... odd to me. I also dislike the current passive for that reason I feel all the Karma passives, including the one in your rework, all gain poiwer from fighting cause this is a gsme about killing the enemy champions and destroying their base. There is not diplomatic victory condition. "If you desire peace, you must prepare for war!", remember? > am always in favour of a passive, that uses all components of her kit. Shielding and healing needs to be considered, imo. I did have my passive interacting her W and E buffering herself and allies, allowing Karma to gain passive stacks from AAs while buffed/shielded and allowing allies to contribute passive stacks from AAa and abilited while buffed/shielded. She is the spiritual LEADER of Ionia. Her enchanter qualities and ally contribution to passive for the duration show that off. > immersive, adding a certain "umpf" to projectiles. A Rioter once used Alistar as an example, because knocking up people wouldn't require it to have a slow, but it feels right to have champions slowed after flying through the air, as if needing a short time to regain their breath The detonation from Q adds the immersion and umpf, while also allowing it to have AoE damage. Also Ali doesnt slow... from my research Ali has never slowed on Pulverize. [Ali](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/Alistar/) [Ali history](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Alistar/History) > Hitting Q makes it easier to land W which makes it easier to hit RQ. Small things. The slow innate in my W. W makes Q easier to land. Combos still exist. > I don't want it to be "easier" to land, but more reliably hit where you aim. It is usually accompanied by a travel speed reduction and the ability to dodge THROUGH the projectile towards Karma and the fact that the area doesn't spawn centered on the target, making the second part less likely to hit. More reliably hit where you aim, by nature, is easier, even if it opens up 1 more dodging angle. The second area spwans centered to impact, it is easier to hit when you land a *perfect* shot. Otherwise its most likely off center (max range detonation) or centered on an obstacle (unintended target). Skill shot targetting allows enemies to cover for their allies by getting in the way or allowing counterplay. Geound targetting RQ does not, as well as hurts non mobile champs more. > I am also confused as to why you would rather go for the point and click spell and toss out the ground targeted AoE Im not. The W and E are point and click, targetted abilities. Q and RQ exist as a skill shot. Ground targeting has elements of the skill shot, but is much closer to a targetted ability due to its reliability. > If the ally is sped up, but only if near Karma, then he will run away from Karma, nerfing his own movementspeed. The MS in Karma's ally cast W is used in 2 primary ways in my rework. 1. Getting an ally into the fight: Karma is between them and the fight or Karma is in the fight already with them approaching. 2. Getting an ally oit of the fight: Karma is between them and safety or Karma is in the fight already with them trying to leave. Other uses of it may be inefficient for MS and may be after the defense increase. I would like to point out that the ally has a base MS buff from this that gets stronger in closer proximity, not "only if near Karma" W self cast does MS and Defense, allowing for cautious chasing or safe brawling. W enemy cast allows for light damage and chase down "Karma always catches up with you". > it's rather unfair to ask someone to get away from something that slows em more the worse he is doing, slowing him even more. Again, what about other, harsher slows? Youre viewing this from the only the target's view as well, Karma *has* to get in close to the target to maximize the ability, putting herself at risk. It is punishing, but no where near the mpsr punishing ability even if Karma tries to maximize it. > People tend to react rather vile to the idea of taking away the MS on E. Most notably those who only know that side of her. All base shields in League now have a secondary effect and I think that's for a good reason. It's a flavour and identity thing, which is why I say "bland" in its absence. My E does have a secondary effect, it enables Karma to gain stacks of passive with her AAs, and allows Allied Champions to contribute stacks of passive with their AAs and Abilities. My Karma is very Mantra focused, her abilities reflect this. People are finicky and attached. Thats not very enlightened, or Karma, of them. > I can see why, it does make sense and it feels karmic. I think it would work best as bonusdamage on top of a workable base damage Agreed! > No no, the damage scales on the missing%hp of the SHIELDED target, the %health of the enemy is not factored in. Ahh okay. That is an interesting route, but it also makes it highly more situational. I'll be sure to throw you my thoughts in your rework when i can!
: Phew, that's quite the kit. Let's do this! **Theme** Overall it seems like you tried creating your own Twindragon iteration. I appreciate it when people try to bring in their own thoughts and don't dwell too much on what's there. Ironically I am not 100% in favour of a TD-Rework at this point, since I think it costs more ressources than Riot is willing to free up, but we can always dream big and settle for something more realistic - but still improved - later. Just be warned though, I will try to stay grounded in my criticism. **P - Gathering Fire** I get the idea, but it has a very... warmongering feeling to it, rather than being about balance, wisdom or karmic effects. In terms of gameplay it tends to motivate people to hold onto their mantrafor too long. I believe that a skilled Karma should judge a situation correctly and choose the right timing based on the highest use of dualistic effects, not.... based on how much she fought. If that's what you were going for I do applaud you tho. There is merit to the "enduring hardship" and "enlightenment=delayed power" theme. **Q - Inner Flame** I believe to change aspects of a kit you need good reasons. I agree with the intent of reducing CC on Karma and making her more about damage/protection instead, but Q in itself is a functional spell. One of the best aspects of her rework, I'd say. The 25% slow also could be there not for its function, but for flavour; sometimes Riot adds slow effects not to make a kit work, but to make hits _feel_ good. I agree that the slow isn't strictly necessary, but I also wouldn't remove it too quickly; it renders Q a bit bland. **RQ - Soulflare** Putting values aside, I don't think this works without making RQ ground targeted. I do like moving the heal on RQ, but attempting to hit your allies with it feels awkward. Sure it works wonders from the backline, but there are so many things that can go wrong. A random minion or a tank in your face shouldn't block you from healing your carry. Karma needs agency and I believe RQ needs to be ground targeted no matter if with heal or without. **W - Spirit Bond** W is one of those abilities that - when reworked - always ends up a convoluted mess that just won't fix in the box of any spell description. I think you fell into that trap too. Having different effects on allies/enemies but also a second mode invites that. You could probably cut half of the descriptions in RW because they match W anyways. Putting that aside; I surprisingly like the idea of a proximity check, but not its implementation. Without a speedbuff or slow Karma has barely any agency over how close/far she is from her targeted W. Besides; abilities that both ask enemies to get away from you, but at the same time slow you, always feel self defeating to me. And as someone already stated, it makes the counterplay for pure melee champions non existent, even though the ability feels like it has a lot. It's a point and click ability that just stops bruisers from engaging. And lastly, I do think tether can be redeemed. I know it's hard to work around and I gave up on it multiple times too, depending on my rework iteration, but I think I have found a middleground... you'll see it in my next post! **RW - Soul Binding** Nothing to say here I didn't say at W already. **E - Inspire E** As others have said in the thread; this makes the E incredibly bland. I think Q and E have been the best parts of the Karma rework and I see no good reason to change something. Keeping the change to a reasonable minimum lowers the risk of alienating people and thus getting more Karma fans on board! **RE - Defiance** So E is basically old Karma's E/RE, right? I mean, I loved Old Karma, I really did, but for reasons mentioned above, I don't think we should quite go there. First, to keep as many Karma players on our side as possible, but also we gotta realize that old shieldbomb isn't up to today's design standards. Damage based on the target's missing%hp is something I am currently going for, on top of a small delay and/or travelling time on the explosion itself. I also experimented with increased explosion size based on the target's missing%hp, but that's a bit hard to communicate. **Final Notes** Overall I like the direction you are going for with the rework and I see similarities in our desires, but I obviously disagree with some of the execution. For example I think not having any CC reduction passive or AA encouraging factor might be jarring for current fans and could be the reason for your undeservedly low ratings. You also appear to share my curse in often writing too much, which isn't working out too well on the boards. I can only advise you to learn a few editing tricks and then build on your already good structuring skills. Afterwards, try rereading your own post a few times and cutting as many redundant things as possible (I usually do this muliple times before posting, often writing every single paragraph at least twice). Here's some editing tricks I use frequently: A > at the start of a line makes a useful box that can cut your thread in digestible chunks > I am cutting things A # also creates a title, increasing font size, while six of those ###### makes it tiny # I am Big ###### I am tiny Adding links to jpgs or pngs can give color to your post, making it easier on the eyes. Just copy paste them in. The occasional {{champion:84}} champion works too, but this creates bigger line pitches, which can look weird. I hope I could help you out. See you around the boards!
Hey, thanks for the feedback! I agree on the theme issue here. I really like the twin dragons concept and will definitely fight to get it in, but between having those visuals and having a healthier kit for Karma, we'd always choose the kit. **Passive** I can understand that feeling towards it, but I feel I have to point out the current passive as being much more aggressive, as this one rewards you for enchanting allies. I did want this to have a reward for postponing the ult, in terms of greater power, but it still requires you to activate mantra at the right time. You get all aspects of the duality from the kit, whether you cast it at 0 stacks or at 30. You or your team may need you to activate it earlier than later, and I agree that at first people will probably hold onto mantra for too long, but I think that Karma players will soon realize the extra AP is a large boon **when you can afford it.** **Q** Q has the lowest cool down of her abilities and would be used here to consistently acquire stacks for the passive along with general damage. I think the 35% slow should be removed here as it gives a bit too kiting power to Karma, especially when the Current W's snare. The *feels good* moment for me with this ability is seeing the stacks go up for her Passive. Id like for things not to feel bland, but I don't want to throw components onto an ability for the sake of avoiding blandness. Sometimes there is elegance in simplicity, and I think it makes a nice foil to her more complicated W, and added complications from trying to maximize the Mantra usage. **RQ** I struggled with the idea of a ground targeted RQ. What tipped me over into the side of not including it was the fact my damage component on W, RW, and RE were essentially point and click and rather unavoidable. Making RQ easy to land while having its current duality would be too much, and would be hard to balance: AoE Damage and Team healing (RQ) vs AoE Damage and slow or AoE protection and MS (RW) vs single shield and AoE Damage (RE). Making it as close to point and click as possible lowers a lot of counter play options, something people seem to be concerned about with her W. **W** Yes, very lengthy. cutting out the flavorful text of what Ouro and Boros are doing, as they could just visually do that in the game, would lower the amount of space it would take. As you said, RW's description could easily be reduced as it copies W substantially. I don't understand the problem of Karma not having a ms buff or slow as a complaint for W when its part of the spell's function. The enemy target is slowed, and becomes more slowed the more Karma moves to them. Allies get the opposite of this effect, requiring more coordination. I have very little hope for the tether, hopefully you can prove me wrong. The slow is weaker than what Karma has right now, which is a 35% slow on Q to a 50% slow on RQ. This also removes the 1.4-2 sec snare on W and the 1.9-3.25 sec snare on RW. My W can scale to 30% (45% on RW) if she's *HUGGING* them. Is it hard for melee champs to deal with? Maybe, but shouldn't it be? Is any slow too oppressive now? How many melee champs have absolutely 0 mobility? Are slows on other ranged champions also too oppressive? There seems to be duality to the arguments against my W, where its both not enough slow while also being too much slow. **E** I think we just disagree on "blandness" and "change". I think change is an opportunity to get more players interested in a champion that, until pros figured out tricks for, was incredibly niche. You seem to view it as alienating to current players. I think an uncomplicated/bland ability and a multifaceted ability with moving parts can both be equally as effective and *good feeling* when allotted the same power budget. E has a stronger, longer lasting shield to make up for the MS component being moved to the W. **RE** I'm completely down for many tweaks to shield bomb. I've considered the delayed explosion. A favorite of mine was one that stored the damage dealt to it that explodes when broken or duration ended. I'm not a huge fan of the missing%hp scaling on Karma's damage as that will make her have the "executioner" feeling. Thank you again for reading and the feedback. And for the tips on formatting, I do not post much.
lceWolf (NA)
: I can 100% appreciate your feelings on this. Thank you for noticing that my rework does tone down the control aspect, but I dont see a Karma that isnt relying on some elements of kiting. Especially not as a Battlemage. Thankfully she isnt an artillery champ, but i also dont think Karma should excell against artillery or long ranged, outside of a "gotcha" moment like a bush gank or ambush. I believe tank Karma isnt played mid cause tank Karma cant carry. Just like top Karma cant, its really just a denial lane. Mid Karma was about carrying, what most mids want to do, but shes been slowly, or quickly if you see this world's patch, getting pushed out of that role. Considering what she is now and where this build goes, i think its a step in the right direction. Would be interesting to see some more champs with "anti-artillery" in the style you suggested come up, but i just dont see it for Karma. Good discussion
A change Ive considered, that you may like, would have the slow and ms buff on Karma's W/RW NOT scale with distance. Just the damage and the armor/mr would scale
alekzu (EUW)
: I think that Karma with less CC is better. It's not her niche and can be used as her weakness. What you propose is, indeed, weaker than what we have now but it's even weaker vs ranged champs. Right now it's incredibly annoying to fight artillery champions. Even when you have a powerful slow and root, you just can't pin them down because they use their CC and run away from you before W hits. So I much more prefer if the CC was stronger the further my enemy was because this way I can punish ranged champs that misspositioned. It's also like a "second chance"..."Hey! Your enemy got far away from you but worry not! Here I am slowing him/her a bit more. Maybe you will manage to take it to full advantage." I don't even need CC vs mele champs. They jump on my face so I can unload my kit on them. Mele non-mobile champions already suffer in the hands of mobility and range. Do we really need mechanics which enhance it even further, no matter how strong it is in comparison to what we have now? I would much more prefer if I had tools to deal with range and mobility a bit better than make meles' life worse. Why do you think that Karma is played top? Because she can build tank? Why is that not a thing on mid then? Because her CC is too strong on meles and too weak vs ranged. That is why I think the "boosting" effect should be reversed. Of course at the end, this is just my own, personal, subjective opinion and it is as far as it can go. This is YOUR rework. Whether you want to consider my opinion or not is up to you. Maybe you will find a middle ground, a compromise. Just know I won't be mad or angry because I already like your rework idea much, much, MUCH more than what we have now.
I can 100% appreciate your feelings on this. Thank you for noticing that my rework does tone down the control aspect, but I dont see a Karma that isnt relying on some elements of kiting. Especially not as a Battlemage. Thankfully she isnt an artillery champ, but i also dont think Karma should excell against artillery or long ranged, outside of a "gotcha" moment like a bush gank or ambush. I believe tank Karma isnt played mid cause tank Karma cant carry. Just like top Karma cant, its really just a denial lane. Mid Karma was about carrying, what most mids want to do, but shes been slowly, or quickly if you see this world's patch, getting pushed out of that role. Considering what she is now and where this build goes, i think its a step in the right direction. Would be interesting to see some more champs with "anti-artillery" in the style you suggested come up, but i just dont see it for Karma. Good discussion
: > [{quoted}](name=lceWolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EdlaKEo0,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-02T20:24:32.662+0000) > > So you would prefer to see her played more exclusively as support then? I honestly would. I feel that as she has been she's in this place where here kit is so oppressive with little to no counter play outside of being Fizz or Talon or Cait or something. He high damage combined with that slow and her sustain is just ridiculous. I'd like her in a place where she's like Soraka. Amazing as a support, can peel for herself and escape nasty situations, but not turn on you and obliterate you.
I can get why youd want that, but it isnt Karma. The concept of duality and being able to turn a fight is very central to Karma in my opinion. I definitely agree her sustain is too much, scaling RW completely off missing HP, especially at those numbers, was a mistake and has remained exploitable for a long time. I think a big problem with her damage is the delivery of it, and i find that messes with perception. A ton of her damage is budgeted to her RQ, and i think spreading that damage around her kit, even if the damage increases (especially if her Control decreases) should make it more manageable. At least it'll make it feel better when she doesnt one shot people with RQ.
: > [{quoted}](name=lceWolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EdlaKEo0,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-11-02T20:21:03.473+0000) > > I cant take credit for the art, its old concept stuff, but im glad you like it. What are your thoughts on playing against Karma and what do you think can be done to make her more fun or engaging to play against? See anything in this kit you like? I just think her damage needs hard nerfed andher utility and healing/shielding left untouched or buffed ever so slightly.
So you would prefer to see her played more exclusively as support then?
: Sexy art and model. Approved and upvoted solely on this. I've never played Karma whatsoever in any iteration of the game lol
I cant take credit for the art, its old concept stuff, but im glad you like it. What are your thoughts on playing against Karma and what do you think can be done to make her more fun or engaging to play against? See anything in this kit you like?
: I really love the overall idea and the twin dragons theme being explored. There seems to be harmony and simplicity in the entire kit. But some things bother me: without a single hard CC in her kit, both Mid and Support Karma's lane phase (mainly, but not exclusively) will become so much more vulnerable than it already is. Also, unlike every other given shield in-game, E will be lackluster and lean back toward the bland state without a secondary effect. Nevertheless, I am enjoying how much Karma reworks we are coming up with and posting here. That shows how much we care.
Thank you for the feedback and for reading! Yes i was always so disappointed more wasnt done with the twin dragons omce they were introduced, if Riot ever seriously considers a rework on her again, its my mission to get them in there. I took out her snare because i up'd her damage and protection. I specifically wanted her W to increase Arm/MR because I nerfed her control in my rework. So yes, she is more vulnerable, from a control side, but im hoping she'll have a bit more damage and protection to make up for it, especially with spiking from her passive. I understand her E is rather dry. Its something i struggled with. I made it stronger to deal with the loss of bonus ms, though it could still do with a bit more base shielding in my rework to compete with someone like Lulu. In terms of secondary abilities, i did have it synergize with her passive: it enables her to stack Gathering Fire with basic attacks while active on her. It also allows her allies to contribute stacks while its active on them. Edit: yes for the reworks! Karma needs attention and Riot knows it. We have to steer them right. Im hoping, if nothing else, we can at least give them ideas and approaches they didn't think of before.
alekzu (EUW)
: I understand what you mean with the W/RW but my problem with it is that it punishes mele non-mobile champions the most. We don't need to promote people into picking champions with dashes and blinks. Maybe instead of making the slow stronger if the enemy is near Karma, it can ground instead? I don't think that % DMGR is that problematic. If it was Riot wouldn't be throwing it like cookies into the new/reworked champs. Of course with Karma will be different since she can give it to someone else but it can easily be balanced. Ori already gives resistances with her E maybe Karma can be unique in that she give % DMGR instead. But at the end of the day what is important is that the ally W needs to gives defenses no matter what they are, rather than _***cough**_ ability cdr _***cough**_. Keep up the good work and don't get demotivated by the downvotes!
I can agree with you on the %dr I was aiming to keep armor/resistance around around as a built in weekness, since i had it scaling with distance. Which would also be unique to Karma. In terms W/RW, i have a question: do you think the current slow Q and snare W is better than what im proposing? The W slow i propose is weaker than the current Q, even at max bonus, though lasts longer. The RW slow is also weaker than the current RQ. Neither of these options snare in my current build either. On paper, my rework is, and should be, a nerf to Karma's control capabilities, even at max bonus on the W/RW. Thank you for the positivity and the discussion, it means a lot.
Sukishoo (NA)
: Not really. They've been reworking them since the game started. Hers was just when they started to consider them a relaunch.
https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/202294884#h3 Appears you are correct. She was the 22nd in this list (of 83 if my count is correct) so not really one of the first. I do stand by the rest of my statement.
: There are many rework suggestions and none of them come true. You better wait for another discussion in dev corner so riot will read (dev corner/reddit are the only area riot take it seriously) your feedback not drop your feeling in random board: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/TkiBEVYV-karma-gameplay-change-preview https://www.reddit.com/r/karmamains/
If we wait for riot to open the discussion, instead of trying to start our own, the discussion has a good chance of never happening. Riot does seem to be looking for a way to improve Karma (the failed neurocat rework), even if they arent putting resources into it right this minute. If you look, you'd see i already posted this to the reddit.
: Karma was already reworked once lol not happening again
Karma was one of the first reworks, thankfully Riot seems better at it now. They are clearly interested as they had put a Rioter on a Karma rework project even just last year. If youd like to discuss my proposed rework and what you like or dislike about, I'd love to have that discussion.
Siand (EUW)
: The ap ratios are sort of high as hell but the ideas are good.
Thanks for the feedback and taking the time to read! Ya the ratios may be a bit up there, but now that there is a damage component to every Empowered ability, its much easier to balance than having Karma mostly dependent on Q for damage. Definitely up for tweaking some numbers here. Thanks again!
: ***
Thanks for reading, i think? Im not sure if you're saying my rework is useless or if youre describing your action here. Assuming that you actually want to contribute and you mean my build, what about it is useless? Is it the whole thing? If so, then why?
alekzu (EUW)
: Hey there, I don't have much time right now but here are my thought on some of your ideas: - 300 ap from passive is just too much. It's luden + rabaddon(and it's passive) worth of AP. Needs lower values. Passives don't need to be impactful for all champions. What matters is, if it conveys Karma's theme. - W and RW slow strength based on how close you are to the enemy needs to be reversed. Mele champs already have enough trouble as it is against Karma. Reversing it makes it easier for meles to counter it as they need to get close to someone anyway to do something. You wanna slow enemies harder who try to get away. It also supports her joke that karma always catches up to anymone hehe. Also can you elaborate what you meant about the % dmr vs resistance? Sorry I am not native speaker. - E is a bit bland. Maybe it can give ap to the ally based on how much Karma would get from the stacks? I like everything else though! If you want I can re-edit my post once I have a bit more of free time.
Hey, thanks for the feedback and taking the time to read! Im completely down for her numbers to be tweaked. If 300 is too much theres plenty of wiggle room to adjust it like, AP per stack or her stack capacity. Remember though, her set up in my rework is a reward for 30 separate ability hits, or attack/ability hits from buffed allies (W/E), or attacks on debuffed characters (W). With stacks decaying out of combat, it should take her some time to get all those stacks. The slow on her W RW is weaker unless she RWs and is on top of you. Without the snare from W and RW, she more vulnerable to leaps and dashes to keep up. My current design was with her current and old tethers in mind* requiring that karma stays in range of somone to get the full value out of it. I feel inversing the slow would come at too high a cost for karma's survivability. I went with armor and magic resistance buff on her W instead of a % Damage Reduction so she keeps some weakpoints that are counterable by items and true damage. E is a bit bland, but since i moved the ms buff from it to the W, i gave it some extra power and duration. Definitely down to add something to it, not sure what to add without making it op or adding yet another capability to Karma, since she has so much already. Thanks again for the read and the feedback! Definitely some things to consider.
Rioter Comments
Azureee (EUW)
: So basically what you been doing the entire time whenever ur point was disproven, aight bud {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}}
> [{quoted}](name=Azureee7,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wzaIcdE6,comment-id=0019000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T22:25:49.081+0000) > > So basically what you been doing the entire time whenever ur point was disproven, aight bud {{sticker:slayer-jinx-wink}} You have only caught me on the stun syndra did to lee, didn't see that, which is still NOT a full combo. when the worst thing I've said is if you get tired of being wrong, which btw, is an actual question. Cause you've been wrong about almost everything so far. You got desperate enough to look me up and try to bring that into an argument that had nothing to do with it..... right...... seek help, good bye. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
Azureee (EUW)
: Nah, when you go and look at the video Syndra Q>E's towards the enemy team and LB flanks thinking that the enemy team is focusing her team, Syndra presses R and the balls get dragged from a mile away and one shot LB. (see, panicking) . Looking back they still used alot off resources to peel back. That was a flank since the Syndra used Q> E and LB had the chance to go in, wreck Ezreal and get out since Syndra had her stun down and Naut was focused on the team chasing him. That WAS a FLANK. Do you ever get tired of being wrong ? Why am I even arguing with somebody who mains Karma LOL. Karma is literally the easiest freelo champ in the game outside off Syndra and Ivern CBAAAAAAAA
> [{quoted}](name=Azureee7,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wzaIcdE6,comment-id=00190000,timestamp=2017-05-02T22:21:35.874+0000) > > Nah, when you go and look at the video Syndra Q>E's towards the enemy team and LB flanks thinking that the enemy team is focusing Syndra's team, Syndra presses R and the balls get dragged from a mile away and one shot LB. (see, panicking) . Looking back they still used alot off resources to peel back. > > That was a flank since the Syndra used Q> E and LB had the chance to go in, wreck Ezreal and get out since Syndra had her stun down and Naut was focused on the team chasing him. That WAS a FLANK. Do you ever get tired of being wrong ? Why am I even arguing with somebody who mains Karma LOL. Karma is literally the easiest freelo champ in the game outside off Syndra and Ivern CBAAAAAAAA Desperate ad hominem detected.
Azureee (EUW)
: Why play assassins when this happens :) ?
Nah, when you go and look at the video, the only thing Syndra did before hand was make a ball and bring it with her (see, preparation), and then make another ball, she didn't not use her full combo on anyone prior to this. Looking back farther than what you seem to care about as well, they KNEW lb was there, so you're right, clone is out, that lb player shouldn't have done this at all then as they were ready. That wasn't a flank, that was a suicide dive. pretty big mistake for a challenger elo player, but thats alright, it happens, he's much better than me and I have the benefit of hindsight. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
Azureee (EUW)
: "Y-y-you are wrong, stop being w-w-wrong!!" Literally using lore to defend LB getting reworked but Syndra not getting reworked for similar reasons. That's actually hilarious. Why should an assassin be getting instabursted with a single point and click be allowed? Hello? It's an ASSASSIN. Also judging fromm your other posts, go calm down, re-evaluate why you think a point and click ult should deal 1.5-2k damage in the first place. You aren't looking at things clearly mate.
> [{quoted}](name=Azureee7,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wzaIcdE6,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T21:48:24.827+0000) > > "Y-y-you are wrong, stop being w-w-wrong!!" Literally using lore to defend LB getting reworked but Syndra not getting reworked for similar reasons. That's actually hilarious. Why should an assassin be getting instabursted with a single point and click be allowed? Hello? It's an ASSASSIN. Also judging fromm your other posts, go calm down, re-evaluate why you think a point and click ult should deal 1.5-2k damage in the first place. You aren't looking at things clearly mate. first off, THATS your argument? lol. You also realize assassins are generally squishy right? especially without any kind of defense. When did I say Syndra shouldn't get changed? her win rate isn't so hot right now, but her impact can't be denied. That said, I'm not advocating for anything other than using your brain. Imagine if the player had actually used Lb's strengths instead of walking right into Syndra's strengths. Lb has tons of mobility and a clone, where as Syndra has raw damage. Imagine if he used a clone to freak syndra out first, getting the attention, or even syndra's ult, elsewhere could've made all the difference. You just whine and rage and try to insult people when they show you're being objectively wrong. I do quite pity you.
Azureee (EUW)
: Randomly firing at the LBs team = prepped balls huh TIL. Spamming Q twice is prepping oh right. Pressing R and one shotting is fine ok bud 👌. Also LB got reworked because building defensive was unhealthy counterplay according to Riot, but nah it's fine for Syndra ofc, le salt XD! Nice argument :)
> [{quoted}](name=Azureee7,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wzaIcdE6,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T21:24:17.914+0000) > > Randomly firing at the LBs team = prepped balls huh TIL. Spamming Q twice is prepping oh right. Pressing R and one shotting is fine ok bud 👌. Also LB got reworked because building defensive was unhealthy counterplay according to Riot, but nah it's fine for Syndra ofc, le salt XD! Nice argument :) Lol, are you referring to the damage nerf or the rework from a long while ago? Cause she got nerfed for her "brute strength" as Riot put it. Also in regards to her rework, they wrote this "Deception and mind games won’t mean much to LeBlanc if she’s killing her opponents before they have the ability to do anything". So not only are you behind the curve in builds (Abyssal is the 5th most popular item on lb) but you don't even understand why those changes happened in the first place. You need to think about things before you post man. Also judging from your other posts, go calm down then re-evaluate why this stuff is happening in the first place. You aren't looking at things clearly mate.
Azureee (EUW)
: A whole 2 BALLS!? Wow! LB should really have expected Syndra to 100-0 her with that point and click ult of course! Silly Challenger midlane player trying to do there job as an assassin and flanking to kill.
> [{quoted}](name=Azureee7,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wzaIcdE6,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-05-02T02:43:44.908+0000) > > A whole 2 BALLS!? Wow! LB should really have expected Syndra to 100-0 her with that point and click ult of course! Silly Challenger midlane player trying to do there job as an assassin and flanking to kill. If you aren't going to prepare countermeasures of your own, you'll always lose when you run into people who have. its called counterplay, keep up or shut up.
Azureee (EUW)
: Wait you are telling me that a negatron cloak would have stopped that ? It would not have. Do you want LB to build tank items like banshees as a carry with her already slow damage? She goes glass cannon because she has to. Pressing R and oneshotting with a point and click is not ok. While LB has to literally use her entire kit to kill Syndra. Even 1V1 with MR LB would have 80 percent off her HP done with an R and then the rest done with a Q. While she waits for her passive to do half Syndra's hp.
> [{quoted}](name=Azureee7,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wzaIcdE6,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-05-02T02:09:02.083+0000) > > Wait you are telling me that a negatron cloak would have stopped that ? It would not have. Do you want LB to build tank items like banshees as a carry with her already slow damage? She goes glass cannon because she has to. > > Pressing R and oneshotting with a point and click is not ok. While LB has to literally use her entire kit to kill Syndra. Even 1V1 with MR LB would have 80 percent off her HP done with an R and then the rest done with a Q. While she waits for her passive to do half Syndra's hp. It definitely would've helped to have an abyssal. she also had double balls prep'd before lb jumped in. Lb has extra utility that Syndra does not, and while her combo may be slow, she doesn't have to prepare stuff before hand. The LB made a bad decision here and hadn't built to outlast syndra damage. if you know LB's weaknesses and Syndra's strengths going in, why wouldn't you try to shore up some of your weaknesses? Feed me your salt.
Azureee (EUW)
: Why play assassins when this happens :) ?
You can't expect to not defend against Syndra and be okay being ult'd by her. 0 MR items on that lb and the Zhonya wasn't used. Death by build.
Hupsis (EUNE)
: Karma's ability info text (bug?)
Ya, I also noticed. It was info that was nice to have, don't know why it would've been removed.
Rioter Comments
: Evolution of a Dragon Champion
Rip Ao Shin, Long Live Aurelion Sol. Now the real question is if Riot knew they were naming it after Golden Sun? Appreciate the update on the process and what to expect, but when can we look for some details on this NEW dragon?

lceWolf

Level 51 (NA)
Lifetime Upvotes
Create a Discussion