: > [{quoted}](name=ChaosReyn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=0018000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-30T20:55:45.994+0000) > > Let's put it this way. At this point, I don't technically think you're even arguing on what is considered trash talking. I think you're arguing about what's considered *excessive*. That one's a lot more open-ended. > > Excessive: more than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate > > And considering that people literally cannot handle **anything** suggesting they're not having the **absolute perfect game**, it's safe to say that any amount is more than desirable...therefore, I'd have to align with the concept that the tooltip is fundamentally flawed, as this logic indeed supports a paradox. No, I'm not arguing about "excessive". I'm stating, pretty clearly, that there's multiple forms of trash talk and some forms are immediately undesired while others shouldn't be hit by the system at all. Excessive is why the system starts punishing you. You went over the line too many times. The report card will not always pick out the best examples of games you were reported in and this should even be mentioned on the FAQ. What it punished you for will still be the same things that I described earlier. Or, at the very least, a Rioter can pull up games you were reported for that actually had been over the line. Remember how OP said "criticism" was toxic behavior? That's a lie. Constructive criticism cannot be punished. The problem is that players feel entitled to saying "you suck" as if it is constructive criticism. It's not and simply insults one player. All you need to do to clarify that tip is make it "some trash talking is okay". It says "don't go overboard" and "some versions aren't acceptable". Not a huge change, as it's literally only adding a single word. But it's still a major one in terms of clarification.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=00180000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2019-05-31T02:05:43.449+0000) > > No, I'm not arguing about "excessive". I'm stating, pretty clearly, that there's multiple forms of trash talk and some forms are immediately undesired while others shouldn't be hit by the system at all. > > Excessive is why the system starts punishing you. You went over the line too many times. The report card will not always pick out the best examples of games you were reported in and this should even be mentioned on the FAQ. What it punished you for will still be the same things that I described earlier. Or, at the very least, a Rioter can pull up games you were reported for that actually had been over the line. > > Remember how OP said "criticism" was toxic behavior? That's a lie. Constructive criticism cannot be punished. The problem is that players feel entitled to saying "you suck" as if it is constructive criticism. It's not and simply insults one player. > > All you need to do to clarify that tip is make it "some trash talking is okay". It says "don't go overboard" and "some versions aren't acceptable". Not a huge change, as it's literally only adding a single word. But it's still a major one in terms of clarification. Well put, I agree with u 👍
: Misleading in-game tips regarding toxicity
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/474750456736776193/583771220089241620/unknown.png This is a picture of a comment made by a Rioter in player support. And frankly, this should end any ongoing debates. If you can't read it because it's too small let me know and I can try to upload a better picture.
: > [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=001800000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-30T20:47:59.910+0000) > > Yeah yeah. As you said... > > Riot is still allowed to deem some forms of this unacceptable whether you like it or not. And they typically draw that line at directly insulting a player. That doesn't mean that it's not allowed in any capacity and I even gave a few examples. > > As far as I'm concerned, there's plenty of wiggle room in that definition that does not include directly insulting/harassing players. Let's put it this way. At this point, I don't technically think you're even arguing on what is considered trash talking. I think you're arguing about what's considered *excessive*. That one's a lot more open-ended. Excessive: more than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate And considering that people literally cannot handle **anything** suggesting they're not having the **absolute perfect game**, it's safe to say that any amount is more than desirable...therefore, I'd have to align with the concept that the tooltip is fundamentally flawed, as this logic indeed supports a paradox.
> [{quoted}](name=ChaosReyn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=0018000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-30T20:55:45.994+0000) > > Let's put it this way. At this point, I don't technically think you're even arguing on what is considered trash talking. I think you're arguing about what's considered *excessive*. That one's a lot more open-ended. > > Excessive: more than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate > > And considering that people literally cannot handle **anything** suggesting they're not having the **absolute perfect game**, it's safe to say that any amount is more than desirable...therefore, I'd have to align with the concept that the tooltip is fundamentally flawed, as this logic indeed supports a paradox. Everyone please read this before posting <3
: Misleading in-game tips regarding toxicity
I'm not going to bother responding to anymore comments about: * What I think about trash talk * Asking about my extremely unrelated chat logs (add me on disc if you want them eparg #8281) * Opinionated statements about this completely factual topic * People who somehow think that trash talking is based off opinion (please do your research) I don't know what's so hard to understand about this, connect the dots. Rioter provides bannable criteria, all definitions of trash talk meet that bannable criteria but league says that trash talking is okay.
: > [{quoted}](name=lil gape4,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=001800000000,timestamp=2019-05-30T14:18:45.207+0000) > > That's like asking what the word "eating" means to you. Eating is a verb with a literal definition, everyone will say the consumption of food. Same goes for trash talking. In my opinion, I think that trash talking is perfectly defined by Merriam Webster, a publishing and dictionary company. I think freedom of speech rules should follow over in game considering there is a MUTE option. No hate speech obviously, but there's a mute option for a reason. There's no point to mute people if they'll get banned right after the game. The mute function existing is not an excuse for you to say whatever you think is acceptable. It's like saying you've repaired a hole in your wall that's allowing in bugs, weather and creating other problems when all you've done is put a poster over it. Besides, Freedom of Speech only deals with government control, not businesses. Anyway, he's just asking what you think is acceptable for trash talk. Maybe the community will agree, maybe not. A better metaphor for this example is "healthy eating". What you consider healthy may not meet the standards of someone else for "healthy". Eating has a solid definition as a verb as does "talking", but what is defining the "trash" or "healthy" portion? The subjective judgment of those using the term. I've already left my opinion on what is acceptable on page 2. Doesn't matter to me whether or not you agree.
> [{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=0018000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-30T20:36:56.909+0000) > > The mute function existing is not an excuse for you to say whatever you think is acceptable. It's like saying you've repaired a hole in your wall that's allowing in bugs, weather and creating other problems when all you've done is put a poster over it. Besides, Freedom of Speech only deals with government control, not businesses. > > Anyway, he's just asking what you think is acceptable for trash talk. Maybe the community will agree, maybe not. A better metaphor for this example is "healthy eating". What you consider healthy may not meet the standards of someone else for "healthy". Eating has a solid definition as a verb as does "talking", but what is defining the "trash" or "healthy" portion? The subjective judgment of those using the term. > > I've already left my opinion on what is acceptable on page 2. Doesn't matter to me whether or not you agree. Trash talking isn't opinion based, or at least it shouldn't be. Maybe league is using a metaphorical term of trash talking that they for some reason choose not to define. But like I've said countless, times. Trash talking is objective and has an objective definition that WILL get you banned. Rioters agree with me and so does the majority of the community.
: >It's to prove that trash talking does get you banned. I'm saying that trash talking doesn't get you banned, unless it were excessively negative or persistent. I've asked you multiple times to elaborate on this, as in what **you** find acceptable, and why this didn't mesh with your understanding of trash talk, or even an objective definition of trash talk. It's fine if you don't want to share your logs. But you're arguing that the tool tip is wrong, but don't feel like showing behavior that *you* thought was within the bounds of acceptable trash talk. I also want to clarify a few things: >" I'm fine with the ban, but I don't think it was justified, and a riot admin agrees with me...Idk if he looked at the chat logs" I'm baffled by this. If he didn't look at your logs, it's not possible for him to weigh on the validity of your punishment. If he's agreeing with changing the tool-tip, then that should be made clearer, for future reference. >And also I learned while talking to the riot admin that if you are reported over a span of games a few times, you will get banned. Regardless of what you said. Not true. You don't get punished by the number of reports. If you're negative in game, and you're reported, then you'll end up punished.
> [{quoted}](name=Periscope,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2019-05-30T17:35:43.943+0000) > > I'm saying that trash talking doesn't get you banned, unless it were excessively negative or persistent. > > I've asked you multiple times to elaborate on this, as in what **you** find acceptable, and why this didn't mesh with your understanding of trash talk, or even an objective definition of trash talk. > > It's fine if you don't want to share your logs. But you're arguing that the tool tip is wrong, but don't feel like showing behavior that *you* thought was within the bounds of acceptable trash talk. > > > I also want to clarify a few things: > > I'm baffled by this. If he didn't look at your logs, it's not possible for him to weigh on the validity of your punishment. If he's agreeing with changing the tool-tip, then that should be made clearer, for future reference. > > Not true. You don't get punished by the number of reports. If you're negative in game, and you're reported, then you'll end up punished. Classic sidetracking, rather than arguing upon my point of whether or not this tip is lying to the community. You choose to proofread and annotate my article for "future reference." And you stated excessive trash talking gets you banned you're therefore proving my point. If excessive trash talking gets you banned, then trash talking as a whole will get you banned. It's legal or illegal, not you can say it 10 times but that 11th time will get you banned, that's just not how it works.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=lil gape4,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2019-05-30T03:37:55.992+0000) > > Please look at my provided definition from Merriam Webster, rather than making your own definition. Hate to break it to you, but thats not a valid source.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2019-05-30T14:29:53.032+0000) > > Hate to break it to you, but thats not a valid source. What makes you say that? Accusing Merriam Webster of being an invalid source is ridiculous.
: > [{quoted}](name=lil gape4,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2019-05-30T08:08:46.254+0000) > > I don't think you quite understand the point of my article. It's to prove that trash talking does get you banned, not to talk about my experiences in past matches or what I personally think of trash talking. It'd be nice if you could use factual evidence to support your argument rather than sidetracking. I’m not trying to sidetrack. You’re arguing about the literal definition, but I’m wondering what trash talk means to you, and what is acceptable talk between opponents means to you.
> [{quoted}](name=Periscope,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=00180000,timestamp=2019-05-30T08:57:38.223+0000) > > I’m not trying to sidetrack. You’re arguing about the literal definition, but I’m wondering what trash talk means to you, and what is acceptable talk between opponents means to you. That's like asking what the word "eating" means to you. Eating is a verb with a literal definition, everyone will say the consumption of food. Same goes for trash talking. In my opinion, I think that trash talking is perfectly defined by Merriam Webster, a publishing and dictionary company. I think freedom of speech rules should follow over in game considering there is a MUTE option. No hate speech obviously, but there's a mute option for a reason. There's no point to mute people if they'll get banned right after the game.
: Misleading in-game tips regarding toxicity
I don't think you quite understand the point of my article. It's to prove that trash talking does get you banned, not to talk about my experiences in past matches or what I personally think of trash talking. It'd be nice if you could use factual evidence to support your argument rather than sidetracking.
: > [{quoted}](name=lil gape4,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=000b00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-30T06:21:29.107+0000) > > This isn't based off my subjective opinion. Trash talking has a literal definition, it's either not allowed or is allowed. And in league's case, it isn't allowed even though they say it is. That’s not really an answer to my question. Have you ever interacted with opponents and enjoyed that? Or has it always been negative.
> [{quoted}](name=Periscope,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=000b000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-30T07:53:45.177+0000) > > That’s not really an answer to my question. > > Have you ever interacted with opponents and enjoyed that? Or has it always been negative. Both, but I'm confused how this is at all related to the topic.
: > [{quoted}](name=lil gape4,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=000b000100000000,timestamp=2019-05-30T04:01:13.661+0000) > > Idk if he looked at the chat logs, and tbh I probably should be banned according to league. I'm not here for an appeal. I'm here to let rioters know that an ingame tip is actually incorrect, competitive trash talking can easily lead to your account's suspension. Ok. Well, what do you think is acceptable talk with enemies? Or do you think there’s any acceptable talk?
> [{quoted}](name=Periscope,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=000b0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-30T06:03:55.707+0000) > > Ok. Well, what do you think is acceptable talk with enemies? Or do you think there’s any acceptable talk? This isn't based off my subjective opinion. Trash talking has a literal definition, it's either not allowed or is allowed. And in league's case, it isn't allowed even though they say it is.
: Misleading in-game tips regarding toxicity
I'm unaware why people are still trying to argue about this topic. A rioter in player support, the one I had this discussion with, fully supports and agrees with my point. The tip is incorrect and it needs changing, he directed me to the boards so I could let someone who has the power to change it know.
: > [{quoted}](name=lil gape4,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2019-05-30T03:37:05.555+0000) > > Trash talking has an objective definition, I've done my research of a few sources. And not one of them makes a connection between trash talking and constructive criticism. I didn’t say they were connected. Playful banter is ok. Constructive criticism is ok. If the rioter agreed you shouldn’t have been punished, then I think you should share the chat logs. Or maybe a screen shot of your discussion with the Rioter. Or both.
> [{quoted}](name=Periscope,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=000b00010000,timestamp=2019-05-30T03:52:13.184+0000) > > I didn’t say they were connected. > > Playful banter is ok. Constructive criticism is ok. > > If the rioter agreed you shouldn’t have been punished, then I think you should share the chat logs. Or maybe a screen shot of your discussion with the Rioter. Or both. Idk if he looked at the chat logs, and tbh I probably should be banned according to league. I'm not here for an appeal. I'm here to let rioters know that an ingame tip is actually incorrect, competitive trash talking can easily lead to your account's suspension.
: Misleading in-game tips regarding toxicity
I'm not here to talk about what is bannable. I'm here to fix this tip which says trash talking is all good, when in fact it isn't. Please do your research and look at definitions of trash talk and compare them to bannable criteria, rather than giving your own opinion on what trash talking is. Thanks!
Pika Fox (NA)
: Then the answer is simple; your definition of competitive trash talk is wrong. Trash talking isnt "git gud scrub" or "lol outplayed so hard". Thats just being a dick, although the latter less reportable, its still being a dick, and the summoners code is essentially "dont be a dick".
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-05-29T16:46:39.171+0000) > > Then the answer is simple; your definition of competitive trash talk is wrong. Trash talking isnt "git gud scrub" or "lol outplayed so hard". Thats just being a dick, although the latter less reportable, its still being a dick, and the summoners code is essentially "dont be a dick". Please look at my provided definition from Merriam Webster, rather than making your own definition.
: There should be a "copy" button at the bottom of your reform card, and you should be able to paste those logs onto a comment here, or edit them into your original discussion. Yes, trash talk is fine, but it should not cross the line from playful banter into outright insults. Similarly, you listed criticism as negative behavior, but as long as it's constructive criticism, it should be fine.
> [{quoted}](name=Periscope,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-05-29T16:41:02.691+0000) > > There should be a "copy" button at the bottom of your reform card, and you should be able to paste those logs onto a comment here, or edit them into your original discussion. > > Yes, trash talk is fine, but it should not cross the line from playful banter into outright insults. Similarly, you listed criticism as negative behavior, but as long as it's constructive criticism, it should be fine. Trash talking has an objective definition, I've done my research of a few sources. And not one of them makes a connection between trash talking and constructive criticism.
iFreeWin (NA)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=iFreeWin,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-05-29T09:31:40.731+0000) > > You don't think they know that already? They clearly put it there and still ban us via their r%%%%%ed Ai system which simply bans based on words and phrases. It's not even true Ai that can decipher text and meaning etc ... The Ai is the autobanning that it does and that's it ... So they're lazy, can care less even when their system screws up, and still continue to dump MTX on us while their game needs A LOT of reworkings/bug fixing/more people to handle tickets perhaps/Maybe a legit system for MM/many many many other things .... > > We're all the silly people who continue to play and spend endless $$ so why would they ever change a thing. Let alone the Asian market runs this game. We just get their leftovers .... I'm not talking about the flawed AI system. I'm talking about the misleading tips. And also I learned while talking to the riot admin that if you are reported over a span of games a few times, you will get banned. Regardless of what you said.
: > [{quoted}](name=lil gape4,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-05-29T09:08:05.800+0000) > > add me on discord eparg #8281. i'll send them thru dms rather than copy and pasting 4000 characters into this Make a Pastebin page.
> [{quoted}](name=Darkdemon653,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-05-29T11:39:18.853+0000) > > Make a Pastebin page. No idea what that is or how to do it, first time on the boards.
: >And this got me thinking, is competitive trash talking fine? Well, yeah. Difficulty: "Competitive trash talking" *does not* include BMing your own team. All you're doing there is increasing the likelihood that you lose.
> [{quoted}](name=Karunamon,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-05-29T14:59:11.102+0000) > > Well, yeah. > > Difficulty: "Competitive trash talking" *does not* include BMing your own team. All you're doing there is increasing the likelihood that you lose. If you read the examples, competitive trash talking will get you banned regardless of which team it is. I know from experience.
iFreeWin (NA)
: Yeah, so Rito is 100% known to be the softest community on earth. You can give someone a little playful banter and next thing you're bombarded with reports for saying something as simple as "THX!" every time you kill them. From there you have to defend yourself with text that's 100% out of context which ALWAYS makes it look worse regardless of what is said. "We're discussing YOUR behavior" .. Why don't we discuss everything? If someone is being toxic on the other team and you playfully reply you should NEVER be comm banned or anything. Now, if you go on and on and on and on and on OR become super toxic, then I get it .. Today's gamers seem a bit sad, soft, protected, or whatever clever clean word you want to use .... I've got a nice p word for them tho ;-)
> [{quoted}](name=iFreeWin,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-05-29T08:50:10.264+0000) > > Yeah, so Rito is 100% known to be the softest community on earth. You can give someone a little playful banter and next thing you're bombarded with reports for saying something as simple as "THX!" every time you kill them. From there you have to defend yourself with text that's 100% out of context which ALWAYS makes it look worse regardless of what is said. "We're discussing YOUR behavior" .. Why don't we discuss everything? If someone is being toxic on the other team and you playfully reply you should NEVER be comm banned or anything. Now, if you go on and on and on and on and on OR become super toxic, then I get it .. Today's gamers seem a bit sad, soft, protected, or whatever clever clean word you want to use .... I've got a nice p word for them tho ;-) i understand that riot is overlysensitive. but i want to make them realize that their in game tips are misleading players
: > [{quoted}](name=lil gape4,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-05-29T04:19:04.077+0000) > If you look at my chat logs for me being banned, I never used any hate speech, I never swore, or anything along the lines of that, wheres the chat logs / account?
> [{quoted}](name=MYSTlCFLOW,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=JdETawAl,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-05-29T09:05:15.554+0000) > > If you look at my chat logs for me being banned, I never used any hate speech, I never swore, or anything along the lines of that, > > > wheres the chat logs / account? add me on discord eparg #8281. i'll send them thru dms rather than copy and pasting 4000 characters into this
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lil gape4

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