Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 8
Regarding the Draven nerf: I think his passive is the wrong place to look. Currently, his damage output makes laning against him a nightmare; he deals far more damage far earlier on than any other carries can hope to match. He is fairly mobile as well, with a move speed buff and hard CC, making him hard to gank or deal with without deaths on your side. Nerfing the passive will slow his snowball, but he is too hard to deal with either way.
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: A bunch of tanks need a bit of help post midseason. We've got changes to some in the next patch (Mundo, Sion, Malph) and will likely work on more the patch after.
Do you think the lack of tank junglers is due to aggressive junglers (Lee sin, Kha, Graves) being too strong?
Rioter Comments
Meddler (NA)
: We might have some Graves nerfs in 7.10. Not sure yet on Lee Sin, though being discussed.
What is your opinion on removing ward hopping as a way to nerf Lee Sin? It's the main reason his ganks are so strong, the extra mobility makes it hard to run from him or punish mistakes
: I hope you understand that you're solidifying a meta where **only** early game junglers (like {{champion:60}} and {{champion:64}}) and supportive junglers (like {{champion:20}} and {{champion:427}}) can thrive. Jungle diversity is going to be a thing of the past: mages went into extinction long ago, so I guess that now it's the turn of farming-oriented carries like {{champion:102}}.
> [{quoted}](name=RUCK FICKY,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=FUeAGTc6,comment-id=000900000002,timestamp=2017-04-14T19:19:06.419+0000) > > I hope you understand that you're solidifying a meta where **only** early game junglers (like {{champion:60}} and {{champion:64}}) and supportive junglers (like {{champion:20}} and {{champion:427}}) can thrive. > > Jungle diversity is going to be a thing of the past: mages went into extinction long ago, so I guess that now it's the turn of farming-oriented carries like {{champion:102}}. I definitely agree that because of all the changes, leaving the jungle alone for a little while is likely a good idea. However, I also find myself agreeing with parts of this. I don't think that a farming style should be as rewarding as a ganking "early game" style is. This is because fundamentally, its less risky to farm your own jungle than it is to execute a gank. If its less risky, its payout (reward) should be smaller. That being said, I don't think ganking styles are _sufficiently_ risky for the following reasons: 1. Due to long jungle camp respawn timers, it can be difficult to punish a ganking jungler with an invade (its likely the camps haven't respawned in the time it takes to execute a gank). The unaccessability of the majority of the camps (really all but raptor camp is risky) further adds to this difficulty. 2. Even in situations where the ganking jungler failed a gank *and* was punished with a camp steal (which again, isn't quite as common as it used to be), EXP gains from champions behind on the exp curve helps ensure the ganking jungler isn't punished as heavily. As a result, ganking junglers do not lose enough when they fail to successfully complete a gank relative to how much they can gain. The risk/reward is off. _______________________________________________________________________ Another problem that I have with the jungle might also be a bug: it feels like the tooth and nail passive exp boosts aren't unique the way they should be. I have had games as {{champion:102}} vs an enemy {{champion:19}} where I went for {{item:3715}} and the opponent went for a {{item:3077}} rush, I can't seem to out level him despite equal score (cs,kills, assists). Again, the risk/reward feels wrong here. I'm investing in (almost) no combat stats vs champions and more utility (namely, more "bank for you buck" jungle clearing) in comparison to the opponents purchase. The fact that I am not seeing the advantage I *should* have in this circumstance is alarming. I haven't done any serious testing yet, but I would venture to guess that the exp buffs for both jungle items {{item:1041}} and {{item:1039}} are coded as the same and therefore only one effect is applied to the champion.
: Midseason AD Itemization Changes
In regards to grevious wounds, does it have a place on a support item? While I agree that its strong, its currently one of the *only* ways to make a lane vs champions like soraka possible. Less reliable would be good, but man is a nerf to executioners a HUGE buff to some of these champions in lane. Putting the effect on a support item (like Zekes maybe?) would give access to it On a more general note regarding healing, it might be worth looking at a decaying heal if there is no enemy champion interaction. For example, Soraka heals would heal for a large percent less (60% plus, and stacking) unless the champion that got healed interacts with an enemy champion, tower, or large/epic monster. This would prevent spam healing a champion to full and promote a little more interaction in lane. It would also make an executioners nerf a little more fair.
: Gold earned is not what determines strengthfrom items... items are. Any time the scoreboard would update to show accurate cs it would also show what items they have which is far more useful for many reasons, not the least of which is that gold that is not yet spent or even that has bern spent inefficiently or on non combat stats has a great impact on actual power level. Even something silly like consumables shows how innacurate gold earned is in terms of power level. If two junglers have earned the same amount of gold so far but one has invested only in combat stats and the other has spent almost 1k on potions and wards and elixers it should be obvious that one jungler is actually behind in item strength but your gold earned stat doesnt account for this.
True, but cs doesn't show that either. So gold earned isn't taking away any information. Gold earned gives a far more clear picture of how far ahead a given champion is, especially when you start crossing over between jungle cs and lane cs. Spectate a few games, and see how useful looking at the gold is and you will start to understand where I am coming from. But suppose I am mid lane and I back with 1100 gold and 30 cs (not sure if those numbers make sense together, assume they do for the sake of argument). I check my opponents cs and see that they have 26 cs; but they are playing Twisted Fate and, as a result, have enough gold to afford a needlessly large rod on their back. Does that information change my buy? Maybe I will start with a negatron cloak instead of going for a second dorans/boots etc. For certain, there are a lot of factors that go into judging how strong you are relative to your opponents. But cs is just an abstract form of looking at gold differentials, so why not just let us compare gold differentials? We gain nothing from looking at cs scores that we wouldn't gain from looking at total gold per character.
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=TheSnacken,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UZqZEOEQ,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-03-27T00:10:32.629+0000) > > Good point. We could stack the two numbers in CS' current spot, or relegate one to the scoreboard. Which would you move? Which is a cleaner number, and which is a better at-a-glance number? Gold counter would honestly be better used in the "extra" stats with penetration, lifesteal and the like. Maybe a UI option to change them though.
If gold counter was in the extra stats, how would I compare to my opponents gold counter?
: Good point. We could stack the two numbers in CS' current spot, or relegate one to the scoreboard. Which would you move? Which is a cleaner number, and which is a better at-a-glance number?
Without question I would prefer to look at total gold. It is a far more comprehensive number than cs is. It is what cs hints at. But CS is just that; a hint. it doesn't always tell the full story.
qqpp (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=masterdragon481,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UZqZEOEQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-03-27T00:08:32.793+0000) > > Wouldn't you be able to tell if you looked and saw you had 1000 gold and they had 800? All champs earn gold per 10 at the same rate (support gold items/runes/masteries are the only things that change this) so if you saw a 200 gold difference you would know exactly how efficiently you are farming vs an opponent. Not exactly. If you saw a 200 gold difference that could mean a lot of things, such as kills, assists, or turrets. Gold doesn't show how you are farming against your opponent. And also, CS counts towards that S rank. If I wanted an S on an adc, I would need to know how much farm I have to see how I could improve it.
If I am trying to gauge my relative strength compared to the enemy, I would definitely prefer to see the gold difference. If a champion is 50 cs down but has 8 kills, they aren't really behind. Well sometimes this is true. Again, this is the problem. If they have 8 kills on the same champion but that champion has 3 times the farm...who is ahead (looking at you old proxy singed). Its very unclear. You know how much gold you get per kill (usually 300, but the game actually tells you how much you get per kill). With that in mind, looking at gold totals per champion would tell you how you are farming vs your opponent. You both gain passive gold at the same rate (so we can ignore it). So any gold difference between you is, as you said, kills assists, turrets, or cs. If there are no kills yet, its very easy to see how you are farming; if you are ahead in overall gold then you are farming better. For example, you see a 350 gold difference between yourself and your lane opponent in the early game. if they have a kill, that accounts for 300 of it; another 50 from cs. Or perhaps they got first blood, in which case you are farming 50 gold better than your opponent. If there are no kills (turrets or otherwise) the player with more gold is the one farming better. This gets more confusing as time goes on; but if you find yourself up 30 cs up on your opponent but they get a kill and 2 assists, its very hard to tell who is still ahead. CS does certainly give a more clear of farm specifically, but since the champion that is "farming better" is really a concern because of the gold they are getting, gold total is the thing you are really concerned about. We have been conditioned to think in terms of cs, but that is really just an abstraction away from gold earned in the first place. The only place where this might break down is in the ranks. But as far as we know, rank is just based on total gold earned by the champion at the end of the day, with S ranks being earned for surpassing average gold thresholds. We think of that in terms of towers taken, kills, and cs. But those might, again, just be abstractions from total gold.
qqpp (NA)
: What about both? When I CS I would definitely like to know how efficiently I am csing compared to the enemy. It would also be nice to know how much gold you both have. This would be really helpful though
Wouldn't you be able to tell if you looked and saw you had 1000 gold and they had 800? All champs earn gold per 10 at the same rate (support gold items/runes/masteries are the only things that change this) so if you saw a 200 gold difference you would know exactly how efficiently you are farming vs an opponent. Looking at cs, if you missed a cannon minion and your opponent missed a ranged minion, your cs will be even but your gold will not be. A small example, but over time that difference will add up. I don't see why, if we could see total gold per champion, the CS counter would matter at all.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: hmm. Well gl to us when trying to hit all 4 shots now on the intended target I guess.
Well the idea is that because he is hitting from so far away (usually) its unfair not really intended for him to have an easy time getting a kill with just ulti. Catching someone on the wrong side of a turret, in a narrow choke in the jungle....thats good planning and will still be rewarded. But ulting up bot lane with no chance of relatiation *and* the ability to kill with the 4 shots is a little much. The ultimate, aptly called "Curtain Call" isn't intended to 100-0 anyone its more of a finisher. Thats why it got shifted from base+% missing to less base more % missing a while back. Lethality has blown it a bit out of proportion for the moment. I would actually prefer to remove the slow entirely, up the missile speed a little, and have the shot speed scale with Jhin's attack speed the way his normal autos do (I'm not entirely sure this isn't the case already).
Danble (EUW)
: Jhin PBE nerf way to small
First of all, outrun hecarim? That is such a crazy statement I don't even know where to start. Secondly, I'll point out that you need to stop only looking at Jhin at full build and full items. Most champions as crazy when looking at that. To respond to your post directly: What you are failing to consider is that most games don't get to full build. While it is improving, ADC's are weak as a class right now because their power curves (and therefore effectiveness) is skewed towards late game. Jhin is kinda the epitome of this scaling. Late game isn't a common situation right now (its getting better). His passive giving a ton of ad is intended. It comes with HUGE disadvantages discussed below. Short version is worse overall objective control, less damage to tanks, disadvantage for majority of lane phase. Deathfire touch being strong on him is minor; it deals magic damage and Jhin doesn't build Void Staff. At 900 AD, DFT is 548 magic damage with W and R. Less for his Q/E. Reduced by at least 30% for 378 magic damage over time. And that 30% is VERY generous; most people run mr or mr/level blues. And there is mr/level for melees. And lots of MR items in the game. At the end of the day, its not dealing much more than thunderlords would. Or Grasp on a high health champ. His Q needs to function as it does because it allows for him to last hit with it when reloading (or just between autos). Downside is it costs mana and pushes wave. I don't see what the problem with the W is. 4 seconds to avoid an ability that, at best, is on a cool down twice that long. That can be blocked by allies. Don't get caught out. His ultimate is blockable. And shows the opponent exactly where he is. I'd personally like to see the slow removed entirely and let the attacks scale with his passive attack speed (Im not entirely sure if they do or don't now). To promote discussion: When you realize that games aren't going to full build all the time, you realize that Jhin has VERY clear counterplay, advantages, and disadvantages along the way to the late game you fear so much. Now, his winrate is quite high at the moment. But lethality being overtuned is a more likely culprit here than Jhin. At level 1, it takes Jhin 6 seconds to attack 4 times. At level 6, this improves to 5.5 seconds. For 4 ad (assuming Jhin got a bf sword) from his passive. If his opponent got a bf sword also (doesn't even matter what other adc we are talking about) his opponent has significantly higher dps at this stage of the game. This makes him a poor choice for pushing objectives, be they towers or dragons, because in the early game his passive does not cover the dps disadvantage. If your team would rely on even the early game dps of the adc to contest objectives, Jhin fails badly. Yes, the 4th shot can act as a powerful smite; but Jhin is incapable of rushing down an objective due to his low attack speed (and poorly compensated damage boost in the early game). The above problem comes from how Jhin's damage is dealt; he bursts more than has sustained dps. This actually ends up making him less effective against health stacking tanks; he doesn't have the consistent dps to shred through them. His high damage attacks are actually more effectively mitigated than the lower damage, more rapid attacks of other adc's. All of Jhin's abilities push the wave; including his autos (that sounds a little silly). If Jhin wants to last hit, he is going to find himself pushing. Two minions are getting low on health at the same time? Gotta speed up the process by using an auto so that you can fit a last hit auto on each or use Q/W but will pretty much always damage other minions. In addition, Jhin has to choose between using his auto attacks to last hit or CS; a choice no other adc has to make. That ammo situation makes him worse in trades; knowing Jhin needs to use his 4th shot on a minion means you can push an advantage right afterwards. It is also a decision of Jhin to finish emptying his clip quickly so he has more auto's should a fight break out. Which pushing the lane even more. This leads to situations where opponents can back off before the obvious 4th shot, Jhin be can be exhausted, taunted, or the bullet can be blocked. He has no escapes outside of being in range to auto a target (exception being his W but that would be a weak argument) and getting a crit. Bottom line is that Riot seems to realize that Jhin isn't far out of line. They are hitting some of his utility/wave clear (which does get pretty crazy) as a way to tone him down. Especially considering they are tuning lethality again, which will definitely impact Jhin's performance.
Skorch (NA)
: To be honest i cant actually find his changes on surrender at 20. But at the same time i dont think 51.5% winrate is deserving of a nerf. usually any change will change AT LEAST 1%. Jhin gets nerfed 51.5 > ~50% Lethality gets nerfed 50% > 49% Albeit 49% isnt that bad. I just still find it unnecessary as we KNOW lethality is getting nerfed why preemptively nerf jhin too? Very few people were complaining about him before lethality so what makes him too strong now?
Changes were mentioned in a red post; nothing on the PBE yet. Red mentioned nerfs to R (changes to the slow) and trap damage vs minions. So it would appear that while Riot thinks Jhin is a little out of line, they don't think it has anything to do with his damage, just with the utility its bringing. Lethality nerfs aren't going to affect any of the things riot is thinking of nerfing; so while its annoying that a "double nerf" is coming it isn't really as bad as that.
ExHentai (NA)
: Start the game with no runes and masteries and you'll see that she has some bonus attack speed. http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/K7Eg4dBQ-caitlyn-gameplay-update-feedback-megathread?comment=00010000 > [{quoted}](name=CertainlyT,realm=PBE,application-id=2EAF660193FA3B668D7234B3AEBB530C5AB7F651,discussion-id=K7Eg4dBQ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-10-28T22:22:19.859+0000) > > Yes, technically her Base AS is 10% lower and she has an extra 11% attack speed at level 1 to exactly offset this.
THANK YOU!!! I was driving myself crazy. So I only need to manually adjust level 1. Thanks a bunch!
Skorch (NA)
: A (sort of) Jhin mains thoughts on Jhins balance right now.
I agree, I think lethality is a bigger problem. That being said, what Riot wants to nerf is pretty fair; wave clear. They aren't really hitting how hard he is hitting. Due to his ad scaling, his Q and E do kinda get pretty nuts as the game goes later.
Rioter Comments
Sinlaire (NA)
: Yasuo already compensated nerf on PBE
Until they address his knockup multiple targets every 3 seconds thing he is going to continue to be a problem. His knockup should have a lockout period similar to udyr stun; if a champ is knocked up from steel tempest, they can't be cc'd by the ability again for another 6 seconds.
: I can't wait for 7.2
Unless they touch his ability to knock up a target every 3 seconds while avoiding skill shots and walling any that slip though, Yas is gonna keep being permabanned. His Q is what is broken, not his E.
ExHentai (NA)
: Qs damage changed from %total AD to base+%bonus AD. The change isn't as drastic for the early game as you think it is.
With 15 AD in quints, Dravens AD is 56+15=71 Pre patch, 45% is 31.92~32 for a spinning axe hit of 103. Post patch, the bonus is 65% of 15 9.75~10 + 30 for 40 for a spinning axe total of 71+40=111. Okay, you're right. its closer than I thought, the change to %bonus from %total had more of an impact that I originally thought. But its still starting 360 gold up on your opponent (a long sword) and Draven will still have the ability to snowball that lead given his current passive. I think its also worth mentioning that base damage on the ability means that Draven gets more from leveling up than other adc's do. So in an environment where he is already ahead (that 360 gold) he gets MORE ad for hitting level 4 (or even level 3 if he is feeling it) than any other adc can. Base damage buffs like that work well on mages (whose abilities have cool downs). Not so much on adc's with an attack speed cool down.
Rioter Comments
: How to rank up in the 2017 season
Blind pick is the epitome of all that is bad in league......why would you leave that and remove normal draft?
: Hunter's Potion. It Exists (And I Have No Idea Why)
I actually use the crap out of these (playing aggressive junglers that clear pretty well) to refill my health bar after a gank attempt or trade with the enemy jungler. For example, when I play shyvana, I can sacrifice 30-40% of my life bar to get a gank off (or at least force the opponent out of lane) and return to the jungle and rely on my fast and healthy clear speed to sustain back up without any lifesteal. This means I get that much more farm while not needing to back. Hunters potions are also really useful for taking dragon (especially solo). I personally don't see why every jungler that is going to farm a lot of their jungle wouldn't pick up hunters potion. For 250 gold you get 5 potions that constantly refill themselves. Its really good.
: Question on Iverns Passive
I was wondering a few things also. First, with his passive, can it be interrupted? Because he will be a counterjungling monster where you have to rush down a camp before his passive takes it.....but it does look like a channel. I also don't understand how it interacts with smite; can i smite a grove that is still growing to instantly "kill" the camp or does it need to be a full grown grove? and can my opponent do the same? The numbers on the pbe also seems weird, the health and mana costs don't scale up but instead jump around. His W is confusing me also; the video (champion reveal) has him casting it 3 times in rapid succession despite, at best, a 24 second cooldown (unless that is just a typo). Finally, his E. Does it function like sion's shield where if the shield is consumed before it detonates it does not detonate? or does the explosion occur no matter what? Overall though, a cool champion with some unique skills/aspects.
Rioter Comments
67chrome (NA)
: > No, it should have grievous wounds. It should not. If a champion manages to maintain distance, kite like a boss, avoid all the incoming skillshots, maintain solid positioning, and hammer away at their opponent by packing enough damage to kill them: they shouldn't loose because thornmail. Rewarding AFK plays and doing essentially nothing with an item purchase that hard-counters a certain play style is terrible game-design, which is essentially what GW thornmail would accomplish. ATM Thornmail is already a pretty solid guarantee you'r opponent's life-steal is going to be 100% useless if they attack you. Beyond that: it's worth pointing out Thornmail is essentially a cheaper {{item:3068}} that's slightly more effective against the right opponents, and Thornmail's overall intention is in a pretty similar place to the cape. It's not supposed to be a miracle item that hard-counters an 11,000 gold build on a carry, just a defensive item that provides a nice chunk of defense and a smattering of damage.
I agree, but I would like to see grevious wounds on more than a conditionally built adc item. There are numerous top lane matchups where it would be useful (looking at you vlad/fio) and as it stands its just impossible to build (800 gold isn't cheap for an item that may not actually help your champions kit a lot and is dead slot item that you have to sell later and hope your team is smart enough to cover). Not that it would help top lane, but I would even like to see it as a support item (some kind of bind to a champion, and even on activation apply grevious wounds, etc) so that supports can get an effect that really matters into the game.
: Any champion being popular in pro play is actually an extremely negative thing because no one becomes popular because they are balanced. Pros have money on the line, and need to pick the top tiers in order to win. If a pick is popular, it's probably because the pick is overpowered and is stifling pick diversity greatly in competitive. And a champion requiring good execution for results is really hard to justify when the top players have that execution. Every pro jungler picked up Nidalee, every pro mid laner picked up Azir and Viktor, and every top laner picked up Gangplank when they were strong, and they are all mechanically difficult champions. Difficulty in execution doesn't matter at high level play because you can count on players having that execution.
This is certainly a VERY delayed response (sorry for necro) but I felt that I needed to respond to this. The difference between Rek Sai and all of the champions that you have mentioned (nidalee, azir, viktor, and gp) is that Sai doesn't deal a large amount of damage; its been nerfed numerous times already (even before they nerfed her recently). The strength, and also the unique role that Reksai had, was in her utility and the information she gave. It is this utility and information is why I said that good execution was required; not mechanics of a champion. Unfortunately, you misinterpreted what I meant. In other words, I don't think Rek Sai was strong for the same reasons that the other 4 champions you mentioned were; quite to the contrary, I think her power level was acceptable *and* done in a unique way that was healthy for the game. Rek Sai gave information which required the team with Rek Sai to make intelligent decisions (execute properly). Now, that has been nerfed, her ability to tunnel has been nerfed, she was already a fairly weak duelist (needs to dedicate too much to defense to not blow up to be able to build damage) has no ultimate to influence a fight, and now doesn't even provide information is a good enough way to be useful.
: > [{quoted}](name=masterdragon481,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kRXmz4ZM,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-06-30T23:19:12.587+0000) > > At high level I suppose I can understand that, but this is a set of straight nerfs that makes her even worse than completely underwhelming for the vast majority of players. > > Even with a "god tier" status, Sai's build is 90% tank; the only non tank items are titanic and possibly cleaver. What I mean is Sai isn't carrying the game, she is enabling teammates. And that is really the only play style left to her after they gutted her damage not too long after her release. > > I suppose I can understand why they want to reduce her utility, as its leading to a ~55% winrate *and* shes a popular pro pick (these things together usually mean a champion is overtuned) but where are the compensation buffs in another area? As I already said, this seems to be the only play style left and they are hitting it hard; harder than seems necessary considering her play rate isn't really that high (outside of pro play). > > EDIT: Forgot to add something: Even as a popular pro pick, Rek Sai doesn't feel as oppressive/unbearable as some of the more iconic problem champions we have seen in the past in pro play. For example, I don't feel like Reksai is warping the game the way nidalee did, or how lucian did. Again, im just falling back to the statement where these nerfs seem VERY harsh for a champion that isn't really that far out of line. The current nerfs aren't final. They might just be screening it in the PBE to lower or raise them so that they'll work in Live. Give Riot a bit of a chance. I agree though that the 1.5 radar range is ridiculous, but it does feel like they're just screening it to see how it is in action.
True. But I don't think they should really be going through with nerfs until there is also a set of buffs to compensate; they are completely taking a champion out of viability. I realize the current nerfs aren't final, but its unlikely they are going to actually add buffs to compensate in this pbe patch. And that means that Rek'Sai is going to go through a series of patches where she is super underpowered. And unlike other strong pro level picks, It feels less justified.
: It's hard to call her "barely played" when she's a top-tier jungler in competitive play. Look at any competitive game this season and there's a large chance that you'll find her either picked or banned. From my understanding, her Tremor Sense is a big part of what makes her so strong in pro play, and hitting that part of her kit makes her less powerful at high levels of play without hurting her elsewhere. I'm not sure about the ultimate though.
I mean the reality is that in pro play, the same 20ish champs show up in nearly every game, especially as far as jungle picks go. There are mostly RekSai, nidalee, and gragas jungles. I guess my frustration comes from the fact that not only are they nerfing a super unique champion, but the unique aspects that Reksai bring still requires good execution to create results. All Sai's utility does is provide information; the choices and plays that result from that information is interesting. As compared to when Nidalee was too strong and just shutting people out, I think that RekSai being popular in pro play is a positive thing and shouldn't necessarily be changed.
: I think those nerfs are great. Reksai is very popular in proplay right now, partially because of her strong early ganks, but also because of the utillity from tremor sight and the map-presence from ult and tunnles. With those nerfs, she probably drops out of proplay while beeing a bad pick in general which then hopefully opens up room for buffs that allow her to be more than a wallking radarstation with knockup past 20 min.
Popular in pro play isn't really a bad thing though, and she is providing some very unique utility that no other champion offers. It really would be a shame to see the unique part of her kit go. If her strong early ganks are too overbearing, nerf her sustain in the jungle a bit, seeing as it hasn't been touched since all of the jungle changes and could certainly be too much sustain now (when it was tuned well in the previous iteration of the jungle). I don't see Rek'Sai's popularity nor utility as a problem because its mostly *information* that is being given to the team; it still requires coordinated action and proper execution to achieve victory. As compared to older top pro picks, like Lucian and Nidalee just straight up being overbearing in direct confrontation. Sai's power is indirect and by its self does not lead to the teams victory and because of that, I think it should be looked at a little differently. I'm sticking to my I-think-she-is-a-healthy-popular-pro-pick argument. So I would rather not see nerfs to the champion *before* they find another way to restore usefulness to the champion. Because as it stands, they are removing her walking radarstation ability and giving her nothing in return; on a champion that is far healthier in pro play than we usually see.
: > [{quoted}](name=masterdragon481,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kRXmz4ZM,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-06-30T20:15:26.751+0000) > > Why? She is barely played as is, and when she is played, shes mostly played as a tank. Why is she getting straight nerfs? I'm not really a Rek'sai main or anything, but it seems to me that this came out of nowhere and isn't really accomplishing anything. > > I did see the post where Riot said that Rek'Sai's tremor sense was too powerful, but to nerf that *and* nerf the ultimate utility without any compensation seems strange; shes previously had her damage nerfed significantly and now they are hitting her utility. Does she really need this many nerfs? > > Would love to hear peoples thoughts on this so have at it! Basically the way it is right now, if you see a Rek'sai in your game, they're either a gifted individual who is basically a pro, or they're completely underwhelming. they're a big pro-pick because their numbers are overtuned and Rek is a god tier jungler ATM. Not played much, but when they are played right, they're unstoppable.
At high level I suppose I can understand that, but this is a set of straight nerfs that makes her even worse than completely underwhelming for the vast majority of players. Even with a "god tier" status, Sai's build is 90% tank; the only non tank items are titanic and possibly cleaver. What I mean is Sai isn't carrying the game, she is enabling teammates. And that is really the only play style left to her after they gutted her damage not too long after her release. I suppose I can understand why they want to reduce her utility, as its leading to a ~55% winrate *and* shes a popular pro pick (these things together usually mean a champion is overtuned) but where are the compensation buffs in another area? As I already said, this seems to be the only play style left and they are hitting it hard; harder than seems necessary considering her play rate isn't really that high (outside of pro play). EDIT: Forgot to add something: Even as a popular pro pick, Rek Sai doesn't feel as oppressive/unbearable as some of the more iconic problem champions we have seen in the past in pro play. For example, I don't feel like Reksai is warping the game the way nidalee did, or how lucian did. Again, im just falling back to the statement where these nerfs seem VERY harsh for a champion that isn't really that far out of line.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: Does Zed needs to be changed right now?
Zed has a long history of buffs to his kit (and his ultimate) because Riot was trying to balance him and make him viable in a world where QSS was removing his ultimate. As a result, it got damage buffs, a free escape, etc which at the time made sense. But now with QSS no longer countering his ultimate, these buffs are now just straight up overpowered. So until Riot actually addresses his kit and the low risk assassination he is capable of performing, he will likely continue to be permabanned.
: Can you reproduce it? If it only happens sometimes it could be packet loss?
Very easily. If I am targetting a tower, and use Q to kill a minion, Vlad does *nothing* afterwards. Doesn't auto acquire the tower, another minion, nothing. I'd have to sit in a custom game to see just how many ways I can get it to occur, but I know it happens with towers.
: Kills do not = wins, I can one shot any ADC and a lot better with Leblanc and Talon (No reaction time for anyone to shield, heal , buffs , dodge, etc. Unlike Zed) Fair means you have an equal chance of winning; Vs Zed you have a higher chance then that of Swain or Leblanc. If the ultimate goal is to win the game, then why does it matter? If every once in awhile you die and the assassins get away (Thats the idea of an assassin btw and I dont see Leblanc with a 80% ban rate even though she does it better and faster)
I never said that Leblanc was fair, nor did I say Talon was fair. They just aren't nearly as popular as Zed is. And since they have a low pick rate, no one bothers to ban them. You may be able to "react" to Zed's damage (and if Zed is fed enough, you don't even really get that) but he has so many other benefits going for him that he is consistently a more frustrating target. And I didn't mention swain either (btw, he is perma ban so I don't really know what your point is there). Zed deals a lot of damage, has a safe lane phase, untargetable mechanics, and execution damage he also has an "escape from a failed attempt" instead of die horribly. Personally, I think its going to take kit mechanic changes for him to make it off the permaban list. Why? He got a bunch of kit changes since his release that helped him succeed *in a world where QSS was countering his ultimate.* Now that that world is gone, those changes to his kit are proving very frustrating to play against; and until Zed loses some of those extra tools he got when he was getting unfairly countered (by QSS) you won't see a change in his ban rate.
: Zeds at a 46% win rate after the patch.
Until they get rid of his low risk ultimate (that got changed over and over again because of QSS stopping his ultimate) then no, he will continue to be permaban. He stills threatens to one shot your adc while maintaining a built in escape. Its far from fair.
Rioter Comments
: Making the Cloud Drake Impactful
Even if its a joke, the reality is that is it VERY hard to quantify how powerful the Cloud drake is. That movement speed, while not visibly giving you power, can allow your team to get to objectives and buffs that you otherwise might not have gotten. As a silly example, lets say all outer towers usually fall around 15 minutes, because of rotations. But, because your team managed to secure 2 air dragons in that time, all of the sudden you have the ability to move between the towers and keep your outer ring up. Thats a lot of gold the enemy team isn't getting all of a sudden. So I'm not necessarily sure that the Cloud Drake, despite its reputation, is really all that bad.
: > [{quoted}](name=masterdragon481,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r4Thwshr,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-06-02T01:56:36.277+0000) > > That would break it. Most of the reason Mallet is considered a niche item is because it gives no resistances and is considered slot inefficient for its cost; especially considering the user *must* close to melee range (no ranged champions build mallet and if it was getting abused, I would say make it melee only and go with it) in order to use it. > > As opposed to Rylai's, whos 40% close is occurring at 600+ range; melees don't even have a chance at dealing damage or even doing anything unless they purchase boots of swiftness. Bottom line is that if Riot wants people to not buy boots of swiftness, they need to reduce the effectiveness of Rylai"s. I agree. it would break it. hence my last sentence. Doesnt Urgot build it?
Not to the best of my knowledge; when his shield is up, his auto's and Q's slow. And since the majority of his damage comes from Q, he wouldn't really be applying the slow anyway.
: > [{quoted}](name=masterdragon481,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q1jsh20H,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-06-02T01:49:10.170+0000) > > Especially after these nerfs, I'm going to say no. He is low range, and top is very easy to gank, but this time, luc doesn't have a support to back him up. Armor is also more effective than damage early, and despite the popular armor shredding build that luc is using these days, it takes a while to get that gold. That time is, again, usually spent with lucian being babysat. > > As an example, Maokai would completely destroy a lucian top; his gapcloser/root outranges lucians auto attack range, meaning that from level 2 on, lucian can't approach the wave without getting drawing aggression for Mao. > > The only two marksmen that are successful top are Graves, who was redesigned to fit in the top/jungle and doesn't work so well in the bot lane anymore, and Quinn who's kit Riot has even said is completely unfair to melee champions. I personally think that if Quinn was more popular, we would see a LOT more of her....in the very top of every champ select. So neither one of of the marksmen that are good top lane are great comparisons to Lucian. > > He probably has some decent matchups top lane, but I think he would lose the vast majority of matchups and/or be a victim to a good jungler. Maokai was the main one I was worried about. Both a Targeted Gap Close so Lucian can't just dash out of it, and a Damage Reduction Ult that would be in range of Lucian's AA when it explodes for Damage. He'd be a nightmare for Lucian. I like his Mobility vs. Ganks as well, I think he's rather safe in that regard. But I admit I could be over-valuing this. Would you say "Yes, vs. the right match up"... for instance if Quinn/Graves are Picked/Banned, would you look to Lucian to Counter the Champs they usually Counter? Or to play into a Quinn if going for a Poke/Siege Comp?
I don't think he is safe vs ganks at all; especially not if he is laning against the tank aka the fight initiator. Post 6, every gank will be successful against a Lucian. Lucian is losing a lot of range, not gonna be good for poke anymore (or at least much less effective). I wouldn't take him vs either Graves or Quinn. Quinn out ranges him and her Q makes trading hard. Graves doesn't outrange him but is going to be able to tank up much faster and just bully lucian around the lane. I could see him being a decent pick against a Riven and possibly Garen, but anyone that can easily hit him back is just gonna be a nightmare for him to deal with. I think a lot of the power that Lucian has comes from his ability to work well with a support; they cover his lack of range. In top? its just a big weakness.
: honestly, recently i've been wishing that frozen mallet was more of a physical damage based rylia (instead of just basic hits), while rylia only triggered off magic damage. dreams will be dreams though. as that would give some champs too much CC
That would break it. Most of the reason Mallet is considered a niche item is because it gives no resistances and is considered slot inefficient for its cost; especially considering the user *must* close to melee range (no ranged champions build mallet and if it was getting abused, I would say make it melee only and go with it) in order to use it. As opposed to Rylai's, whos 40% close is occurring at 600+ range; melees don't even have a chance at dealing damage or even doing anything unless they purchase boots of swiftness. Bottom line is that if Riot wants people to not buy boots of swiftness, they need to reduce the effectiveness of Rylai"s.
: Strategy: Is Lucian viable Top Lane?
Especially after these nerfs, I'm going to say no. He is low range, and top is very easy to gank, but this time, luc doesn't have a support to back him up. Armor is also more effective than damage early, and despite the popular armor shredding build that luc is using these days, it takes a while to get that gold. That time is, again, usually spent with lucian being babysat. As an example, Maokai would completely destroy a lucian top; his gapcloser/root outranges lucians auto attack range, meaning that from level 2 on, lucian can't approach the wave without getting drawing aggression for Mao. The only two marksmen that are successful top are Graves, who was redesigned to fit in the top/jungle and doesn't work so well in the bot lane anymore, and Quinn who's kit Riot has even said is completely unfair to melee champions. I personally think that if Quinn was more popular, we would see a LOT more of her....in the very top of every champ select. So neither one of of the marksmen that are good top lane are great comparisons to Lucian. He probably has some decent matchups top lane, but I think he would lose the vast majority of matchups and/or be a victim to a good jungler.
Rioter Comments
: Ninja tabi could get buffed to 15%, Greaves to 40%, and id still pick treads more often than not
I, as well, would like a few more tenacity options in the game. That being said, tenacity needs to be balanced around its best case scenario; and with 15% in masteries and another 25% in pots.........tenacity scales multiplicatively (and im rusty on calculating it) but you are looking at probably close to 50% reduced cc duration on any champion (we won't talk about irelia). Thats a LOT. I don't know thats its fair to have more.
Toastey (NA)
: the point isn't that they're already using a voice service the point is having a service integrated into the game so that compatibility isn't an issue (eg someone only uses skype and lands with a premade who only uses discord). dota 2 is a free game with voice chat. almost every team game that has any significance has push-to-talk. i mean even TF2 has push-to-talk. LOL if you're so much of an eager victim that you're gonna say "well maybe voicechat isn't the best idea even if it's been proven throughout video gaming history", then there's a mute button for you
First prove that they aren't already using a voice system. Then prove that if Riot implemented the system, that people would use it. If you can't do both, it isn't worth Riot making it because there is no clear gains they will get from it. If people are just going to use the mute button for whatever reason, thank you for proving my point; it becomes completely useless and not worth making in the first place.
: [CLIENT] Description for Vampirism needs updating.
Thats because spell vamp is still in the game. You just can't buy it on any items in the shop. Runes, and as you pointed out, the mastery, still provide spell vamp. That works exactly as it always has; 100% effectiveness (before resistances) for single target spells and 33% for AOE.
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masterdragon481

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