Dynikus (NA)
: because there was obviously a reason they made a change to begin with. They have problem A and try to fix it, and it results in problem B. Why would they just revert back to problem A instead of trying to come up with a solution to problem B? Trying to fix problem B might result in problem C, but it's better than just going back to something you already know doesn't work.
Then what about all the cases where a champion didn't have problems in the first place and Riot just decided to make a change because... well, some reason they conjured up, I guess? Which then creates a problem?
Penns (EUW)
: I mean, you could literally give that Draven 5 more kills, level 13 and like {{item:3508}} {{item:3094}} {{item:3006}} , {{item:3086}} , he did no damage, he would still do no damage. And the problem isnt just about adcs, some tanks and every "fighter" kills mages and assassins just as easy without taking damage from the burst that would be enough to kill their carry 3 times. Apparently "offense outscales defense" but it doesnt until maybe like 6 items.
Getting a Last Whisper instead would be far more helpful. Tanks generally have cheaper items because they're actually supposed to be tank and be stronger in midgame. They're supposed to be weaker lategame when people actually finish off their items and then make their last item the tankbuster one (Void Staff for AP, Lord Dom's or Mortal Rem for AD). But if the enemy team is tank heavy or a tank is carrying and fed, then you can just get a Last Whisper like after your second completed item or so and it'd help a ton.
: What adc is most like a mage????
Varus, Miss Fortune, Jhin, Corki, and Ezreal. Quinn sort of, but she's not really played in botlane.
Rioter Comments
Penns (EUW)
: https://i.gyazo.com/967da77db134c12d981ecd653520a0db.png Actually didnt see the Sheen but its not like the ~110 dmg he got from it really matters lol.
+500 Health and +105 Armor from his 3 Armor items (and Sunfire's health). Draven is behind, Nautilus is ahead. It's still earlygame where ADCs are supposed to be weaker while tanks have higher base damage because they don't scale. Draven only has 20% critical chance and 78 AD from his items, and then some AS. Of course Draven would lose. Also, why is Draven even 1v1ing the Nautilus in the first place? Where is his team? And why is Draven staying so close to Nautilus instead of kiting and continually backing off? Also, Nautilus would have gotten MULTIPLE Sheen procs off. And 110 damage (per proc?) is a huge amount to a squishy carry in early.
RexSaur (NA)
: Can we give counterplay to Lee wardhoping into melee range and pressing R into QQ?
So outside of him using Flash... Why is no one on your team doing anything? Sure, it's a bit difficult to CC Lee during his W dash itself. However, there's a pause and the duration of several moments when he's right in the middle of the enemy team so he can Q1-Q2. Also, why is no one on your team bodyblocking said Q1?
Penns (EUW)
: This is why I dont like when people say "you are squishy, you arent supposed to tank damage"
No items for either are shown besides the Sunfire you told us about. This is an inconclusive and potentially misleading picture.
: > [{quoted}](name=nep2une,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ehXHLR4P,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-14T22:38:17.141+0000) > > Just going to say, but I'm not sure why you think buying more damage makes you any tankier. Question is why Camille still does half my health without her second Q proc and W, with 2 Dorans.
I was referring to how you said you had more damage items than her. But then you comment on the damage she does, as if you buying more damage items somehow makes her do less? And I'm saying that buying more damage doesn't make you tankier. Also, with the damage you have in items compared to her, you could half-health her even quicker most likely. Her damage could stand to be toned down slightly, sure. But that wasn't my original point I was making.
Rioter Comments
: When you pick Shen just to use new skin
How do you have a skin for a champion you don't own...?
: Camille's still broken
Just going to say, but I'm not sure why you think buying more damage makes you any tankier.
: jhin 4th ult shot kills me at 50% health
I mean Jhin is an AD caster that plays like an AD mage. And Kog'Maw nearly exclusively relies on killing people through his machine-gun speed autoattacks. So of course Jhin would have stronger ability-style strengths than autoattack-style strengths. Sure, Jhin's fourth autoattack is powerful, but his autoattack system + reload time makes it a pseudo-ability in itself. Kog'Maw could pretty much just have his W (or whichever that AS buff ability was) and melt through people whenever he's decent.
: I find Tahm Kench to be a very good counter to her ult. Put on 3 stacks, then W to spit her out of it ending the ult. As for laning against her, he isn't bad at all with his Q W E doing a lot of work if she tries to all-in him because she can't straight burst him like other champions.
Alternatively he could just eat the target and keep them in his belly until her ultimate ends.
Danjeng (NA)
: You buy even more sustain, on top of your innate sustain.
Until you realize the rest of the champion is severely weakened to make up for innate sustain.
khorney (NA)
: Why does windfall block namis ult but not block lux ult bs in my opinion
Rioter Comments
: Let's not beat around the bush it needs to disappear immediately when she dies inside her ult
Yago (NA)
: That's true within the larger point of the game. And the ability itself, I think, is perfectly fine. It's the kit it's attached to. The fact that she possess such an amazing base stat spread, even after all the nerfs to said base stats, and has a kit that plays like the second coming of the Crocodile Messiah, I mean, Renekton Bar might have a lot to do with the complaints about her R. She's absurdly strong in the laning phase, capable of diving in and getting off a stun, three auto-attacks, multiple Sheen procs, all while mitigating a significant chunk of your damage either through her passive or her W's heal, and then walking away to safety. That's difficult enough to grapple with, but then she has the ability to press the 'All-In' button, and you're immediately forced to duel her. And against any half-decent Camille, that button means death without an ally nearby. You can kite someone like Garen or Darius, who are exceptionally good at repeatedly eviscerating their lane opponent once they get a lead, or even just stay away from their engage range, but that's far more difficult when Camille can leap over thick walls on a minuscule cooldown and has a decent ranged powerful slow, a haste, and another gap closer from the I-Win, I mean All-In button. Unless I'm mis-remembering, you cannot Flash at all under Camille's ultimate, not just being incapable of using Flash to escape it. If that is the case, then that, in and of itself, is quite a lot of power that I think goes unnoticed. If Camille used her ultimate in such a position that a Flash-able wall, and a small amount of area on the other side of it, was within the zone, being able to Flash over it and buy time for the effect to end would be quite a nice decision that is, as I said, if memory serves, presently impossible.
What I mean is that then it's the rest of her kit and stats that are the problem. Not the ultimate. And you can Flash in her ultimate. Just not out of it. So the proposed scenario you said is possible. You'd just stop at the max range possible (edge of ult) if you tried to Flash past the ult wall range.
: Viktor R disappear instantly if Viktor dies + a CDR bug
Why wouldn't his ultimate disappear if he died? Isn't that intended?
Rioter Comments
: > ADCs themselves aren't weak. But they are lategame scalers. But that does make them weak. They're late game champs in a time where games average under 30 minutes. Another factor is that they're supposed to be the tank killer class at a time where tanks are far too strong.
Weak implies they can't do much at any point in the game. If it wasn't for this ridiculously fast-paced early-rush meta, they would be staggeringly oppressive.
: I'm sorry you don't know the full situation. Given that it seems unfair to comment on other peoples post.
I don't need to know the full situation though.
: maybe instead of complaining about a perceived problem, why done we talk about how the best way to adapt to the new meta.
I'm fine with that too, but most people seem to think it's a problem. I just want discussion on the matter in general.
: I think it's fine as it is - it will force a meta shift. ADCs will sitll always have a place on a team, but they won't be forced to go bot lane with a babysitter every game, maybe. Maybe people will be encouraged to pick strong early game laners in bot lane, or those who can waveclear quickly. Let people figure out how to deal with it, rather than begging Riot to cater to what has historically been the most babied class of champions in the roster since the beginning of time.
ADCs actually not being overly dominant and pandered to for once would be great. The issue is that the result of said 4-5 botlane gank, getting the 2 kills, tower and first blood tower gold, and Dragon, snowballs the game way too hard, in a way that's faster than a healthy rate in my opinion.
: She is but you will have all of riot white knights come in here and try to say otherwise.
If you think she's OP, then you are ignorant, a bad player, and/or trolling. Not sure what you're going on about.
Rioter Comments
Cloud273 (NA)
: "Just cc the Fizz"
sigh. Bait it out first. You're also Nautilus. You have an asston of CC even without ultimate that Fizz would be forced to get away from unless he wanted to die right there instead.
: > Even if Brand's (or any other 'traditional' burst mage) full combo did 3000 damage theoretically, a carry will only have 1800 or so health lategame. So only dealing 1800 health EHP damage would be enough. And Ahri trades the remaining 1200 damage for reliability in getting that 1800 on said carry as well as surviving through her killing attempt. Ah, see this is the main part I wanted to hit on. You said it much more condensed. XD But this is why Ahri struggles against tanks. She trades the ability to burst tanky targets for the ability to burst squishies and then get out, this is how her power budget is rationed. I'm glad this discussion was reasonable as well.
I just feel like, the tradeoff of not being able to burst tanky targets isn't as impactful of a tradeoff as it probably should be for the reliability. Sure, mages can burst tanks. But tanks aren't their main target anyways, and tanks are extremely durable against burst and are more vulnerable to DPS (said DPS mages being like, Cass, Azir, etc). So not being able to burst tanks is already sort of a given for most mages, nor would said mages want to waste their rotation on a tank probably. The only thing they'd need against a tank is to just CC them down. Their job is to get rid of the enemy carry/carries. Which both Ahri and every other mage can do, but Ahri can do with more consistency. I dunno, just my few cents.
: What you say is true, I just wanted to make some sense out of where Ahri's supposed "brokenness" came from. I won't deny her safety in lane, and I feel that making her a little less reliable in lane won't hurt her per say.
She's not broken in the sense of just immediately crushing people. But she's far too well-rounded and forgiving, which makes it easy for her to just turn it into a battle of attrition while still having more safety and still enough damage to kill. Even if Brand's (or any other 'traditional' burst mage) full combo did 3000 damage theoretically, a carry will only have 1800 or so health lategame. So only dealing 1800 health EHP damage would be enough. And Ahri trades the remaining 1200 damage for reliability in getting that 1800 on said carry as well as surviving through her killing attempt. Glad we could have a reasonable and intelligent discussion!
WuTang91 (NA)
: so when someone is bashing on you for being a bad player or whatever they claim and you retaliate you're the bad guy? I mean sure two wrongs don't make a right but where is the line drawn I mean it's ridiculous. It's very backwards to punish one person for being verbally aggressive when the other parties are being equally obnoxious. Especially when they're the ones that instigated the complaints/negativity to begin with.
So what? What they did is irrelevant. Your behavior was permanent ban worthy. End of story.
: Okay, I'm going to say this briefly. #The reason that Ahri is seen as broken by some and balanced by others is because of the concept of windows of power. Let me explain. In mid lane (and perhaps in other lanes, haven't played those enough with a critical eye) we dance around each other throwing skills at each other, taking advantages of weakpoints. **These are windows of power.** For example, Brand's windows of power are when he has all his spells up. When he uses W to poke, the window lowers, because now he has lost kill potential without his ult and can only do an emergency stun with E>Q. If he uses E to farm the creeps, this is the moment many mid laners attempt to attack him if they haven't gotten hit by his passive. **The reason is because Brand's windows of power revolve around having all of his spells up to fight back and mitigate retaliation** For an example more relative to Ahri, let's take Viktor. The bulk of Viktor's damage in lane comes from his Lazer. He loses trades if he doesn't hit the lazer, therefore **Viktor's windows of power fluctuate around his Lazer cooldown** Demonstrated as a chart, these champ's windows of power can be shown as below: http://www.psychstat.missouristate.edu/introbook/sbgraph/normal0.gif This is a completely blank and irrelevant graph in terms of its content, but what it represents is a window of power. The high point is when the champ's kill potential is high, and the low points are when they miss their essential skill or use it to farm. Ahri however has a window of power that can better be described using this graph. http://forums.serif.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37436&d=1353529642 If we can see the bottom of the curve as Ahri's lowest point, when all her spells are gone, we can see that **Ahri's windows of power are much lower than other mages but are more constant overall.** What I mean is, that if Ahri and Viktor were to duke it out, Either one of them could delete the other. **However if Viktor misses one skill, Ahri can kill him, if Ahri misses one skill, she has the mobility required to avoid death or kill him** More plainly, Viktor has a higher **potential burst**, but Ahri has better **reliable burst**, especially when she lands Charm. What this means in laning is that while you can easily predict another mage's moment of weakness and all in them, **There is never a point when Ahri is weak in laning (once all skills are up). She will always be able to retaliate against attack, however she trades this for total damage.** Safety is another big thing. **Viktor and most other mages have limited mobility, meaning that mispositioning can be lethal, however Ahri has the mobility rivaling assassins.** So why is this fair? Well, to put it plainly, **Unless Ahri is ahead, other midlaners have superior AOE damage and burst** Brand, Ryze, and Vik can all kill in teamfights much better than Ahri, however Ahri has the tools required to make single picks, and she's better at this than any one mage. It's like she took all the AOE damage of other mages and compressed it into a package designed to kill one target than high tail it out. This brings me to another point. Ahri is terrible against tanky champs who can eat a full rotation, because her skills are tailored towards taking out a single target, she flounders in teamfights against the front line. She wants to unload her skills into the enemy carry, but if they are protected enough she can't do it. If someone were to attack her, she is forced to use her ult to escape but in the process becomes useless in the teamfight in comparison to her counterpart. Conversly, Viktor, Brand, Lux, these mages have massive AOE damage and can decimate the back line **through the frontline** Best examples of whom I listed here are Brand and Lux. Viktor's more of a mid-ranged mage. So, TL;DR. Ahri trades high AOE damage that is good in teamfights to single target damage focused on making picks and the mobility to do so. People find her frustrating in laning because she doesn't have high or low points as obvious as most other mages, her windows are much closer together but as a consequence never get as high as other mages. As a result people have to engage at her weak moments which are comparatively stronger than other mages' weak moments. Anyway I hope someone made sense of this pile of rambling.
I understand what you're saying. But reliability is far more useful. Either way, both Ahri and any other mage can delete a carry. But Ahri is a lot more likely to do so, and has more leniency. And in lane, she just constantly sustains and pokes and then all-ins whenever she can land an E. Sure, her all-in might not be as much damage as say, full Brand combo. But she has a far easier time poking someone to near death and then finishing them off while she simply sustains through the lane.
Trick2G69 (EUNE)
An overall-averaged winrate means jackshit.
WuTang91 (NA)
: Perma Ban
You don't get banned by sticking up for yourself when getting flamed by hateful player. You get banned for being the hateful player.
: Yes but in teamfights when you dont see anything and you try to avoid and kill the adc and mage its ... allmost impossible to dodge i should say? Not to mention the fact when the whole team is rooted by amumu
: Riot can you tone down the annoying champions?
You can say that about every champion in the game. That means nothing.
: > [{quoted}](name=nep2une,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z1QKvVq2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-13T22:10:41.049+0000) > > Pix to minion, Q poke. > Polymorph is complete instant denial. > Ultimate basically guarantees not dying in a 1v1. So a poke that requires 2 skills to pull off, while wasting the actual use of her shield/or E damage to do (Which her Q isn't even super strong) Polymorph being a targeted CC which is not like she is the only one in mid lane {{champion:1}} {{champion:4}} we can count more if we do champions outside Mid lane or other "easy" to land stuns etc. And an ultimate that is nothing but saves themselves (or others)? {{champion:245}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:26}}
Or she can just auto you instead for her auto + Pix's auto. Or just Q you through a wave for reduced damage. Pix to minion - direct Q poke from two angles (with Pix's Q not being blocked by minions) is the highest damage though, and extremely oppressive. She doesn't need any sort of preparation unlike Annie or TF. The ultimate isn't really the big issue in the 1v1. It just provides additional safety and pretty much guarantees that she won't die unless either she fucks up, they QSS/Cleanse her Polymorph, or more than 2 people come to gank her.
: Illaoi just a little bit op?
Or you could press this button known as "right-mouse button" and step to the side of her skillshots.
: Why the hate for Solo Lulu?
Pix to minion, Q poke. Polymorph is complete instant denial. Ultimate basically guarantees not dying in a 1v1. Polymorph turns any 2v1 gank into 1v1.
Eedat (NA)
: Sort of like the bronze 5 kid who tells Diamond players to get gud then copy and pastes popular topics to farm upvotes
You're still here? I thought you would've left to go make another shitpost by now. Hurry, or you might miss your quota.
Eedat (NA)
: Wow another copy and paste Ahri thread. I was unaware we needed 20 of those per day
: Why was the AP ratio buff on Glittlerlance (Lulu's Q) reverted?
She's fucking horrendously oppressive as a solo laner.
Rioter Comments
: eh... what? janna ,alistar , nami,taric,blitz, braum , are probably the only supps in the game.. the others are just mid lane mages who got fucked by riot because of the new meta. yea..
You mean, "mid lane mages who fuck over everyone else"?
Rioter Comments
: Here is an idea for buffing the common ADC
lmao someone thinks ADCs need buffs
: Is Riot's new banning algorithm not a little bit unjust?
: Why shouldnt ranged casters get to use armor pen?
Because lategame scalers are not supposed to have massive early game power.
Dengeden (EUW)
: It's also quite miserable to be forced into playing champions you have no idea how to play (or don't want to play period. Looking at you, Trynd) and that won't drop key frags or chests.
That's the whole point of ARAM. If you don't like that, don't play.
Bultz (NA)
: All channeled attack need to be interruptible
Is Darthposting the new thing?
: Can we talk about Le Blanc 1 shotting me with E level 1 when I have 42 MR.
At least try to sound half-realistic before QQing next time.
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