: He'll get buffs next patch, more work in the following one. People have success on him in the jungle though, since he doesn't have a laner that could shit on him there.
I might try him in the jungle, seems like it could be alright since he can actually scale up and get some items.
: Is ornn supposed to win vs illaoi?
The real question is what champion does ornn actually beat toplane?
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: nerf what about it? the low scaling he has with that build? or the safety of it?
The boring laning phase, the safety, the bruiser tank ranged adc with klepto that's going to outscale you by throwing Q. it generally slows the entire game down.. a little too much.
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: Let's give Magus the Cinderhulk treatment
: What happened to this game?
NeoKira (NA)
: My biggest problem ends up being a mixture of this + the fact that any ap jg without good sustain just loses health. They're not ad junglers, which just clear the camps so quickly that they take no damage anyway, and they're not tank junglers, who take so much less damage from the jungle that it's less relevant. So what ends up happening is that they just get to about 1/2 hp after a 2 or so camps, which means that ganking is suddenly probably going to get you killed. This is also the problem i have when I play ADC junglers these days. I used to love playing twitch jungle with wriggles into feral flare, but twitch can't hope to have a stable time in the new jg. He not only takes too long to clear camps at the start, but the damage they do to him is so much that he can't actually hope to deal with it.
Ap champions are typically ranged so you can kite and cc mobs to clear it Ex. on brand/syndra I can kite camps around with taking many hits at all when I have blue buff. Also rangers does a pretty good job at keeping your HP up its more the mana I find I have problems with
: Ok, so I had written a semi-large wall of text despite trying not to. And the forums decided to eat it. So i'll try and rewrite my conclusion. --- I feel like both Warrior and Magus are just ball of stats, and doesn't impact your game the way Devourer or Cinderhulk does. And I don't think adding monster-fighting-only mana regen would fix that for Magus. --- I'd like to write more in-depth about this, and I had, but the forum ate it.
I replied to it, I will reiterate; yes both are balls of stats. However during ability downtime (conserving mana) Warrior = stronger auto attacks Magus = No benefit This is why I think Magus needs to regen mana, it 100% relies on abilities, warrior relies 50% on abilities 50% AA's
: I prefer the solution stated in the 3rd edit: give some flat or % mana back when killing big jungle monsters.
It was a bit ridiculous when fiddle drain could restore like 300 mana per use..
: Well, if you want something exclusively for jungle clearing, then the thing would be to buff the mana regen of the machete/upgrades. Not the full Magus enchant. Cinderhulk is something which grants you extra HP, always, and an AoE dot combat passive, always. Giving the same treatment to Magus would not be to give it something for clearing only. And I do think manaless AP junglers should be considered, both because all those niche picks, things that you wouldn't do in ranked but you might wanna do for fun (whether in normals or bots) will be even less relevant if they get denied at such a basic level, and because Riot'd block themselves out of creating a dedicated manaless AP jungler in the future. The game thrives on diversity, that's what Cinderhulk was about, creating scaling for the tank junglers who struggled scaling beyond really good first ganks (at least as i gather). A full enchant change is geared towards the mid game more so than the early game, and by the mid game you should have no more trouble than mana hungry AP casters in the mid lane who by then are expected to use their abilities for clearing. Again, the real issue for the early game is that there's no good mana/mana regen+AP item to hold onto while you finish your full mana/mana regen+AP item. The issue for later in the game is that the only strong, pure AP+mana regen item is Morellonomicon (or AA's, but AA's has the problem of lacking CDR so there's that). And neither Morello, Archangel's, or Rod of Ages if you wanna really go the heavy mana route, has any component item with mana/regen and AP. So if we get an item with mana regen and AP, which builds into something with high AP and good mana regen, then that should solve a lot of it for both midlaners and mana hungry AP junglers. And then Magus can get something interesting instead of being a Morellonomicon sans-mana regen and Grievous wounds. --- Also, just to pull out a scruffy strawman, if your clears are lacking because of health problems, speed problems, or mana problems... get {{item:3713}}, that's what it's there for. --- As for an empower active, I don't see how this would be any tricky to make (or why it would be tuned per champion, it's not like spellblade, statikk shiv, or Luden's Echo needs individual tuning), you take Luden's Echo passive, tie it to an active on a decent cooldown, scale it up a bit and make it afftect all targets hit by the spell/ability, and give AoEs the spellvamp treatment. Or you're just lazy and give a retuned Luden's echo passive.
This is trying to create an item that caters to magnus users only not every jungler. As I've already stated it isn't an early game problem but rather a mid-game problem, you need the changes on Magus itself you can't buff base machete that much. Look at what each item does to help junglers **WITHOUT** the use of abilities (IE. you are trying to conserve mana) Warrior: Higher AD = stronger auto attacks Cinderhulk: Immolate = passive damage aura Magus: **NOTHING** = Without using abilities this item does literally nothing to help your clear speed. You complain so much about manaless junglers being hurt by these changes when really the item is plenty strong as it is even without the mana regen incorporated in it. Champions like Shyvana can get trinity force even if they don't use the mana, Magus would still be a strong item for a manaless ap junglers. Im trying to create an item here that benefits junglers while they are clearing not create a new go-to-item passive regen item for mid laners. These are two separate issues I do not know why you are arguing this point. As much as making magnus "cool" and "unique" it's much easier from a design and balance standpoint to just keep the item simple and simple - Just give it raw stats like the other two enchants. This way it is equally powerful on everyone and certain champions wouldn't benefit more from whatever "unique" passive you could put on it. Also Rangers doesn't give enough mana and the cooldown is too long to provide any proper means of sustain.
bunies (NA)
: Fix wall of text, need nice easy to read summary what you want the new item to be
There is a TL:DR for a reason..
: grab some mana pots magus is broken as is and the last thing it needs is buffs you must reduce the cdr to at least 10% and i'd be on board with any mana regen attributes
Mana pots are horribly ineffecient.. 100 mana over 15 seconds is basically only one additional spellcast. At that point you are basically halving the money you make on each camp if you are chugging mana potions the whole time. Just bring back the old stacking mechanism (Just like seekers armguard but jungle mobs) to balance this power spike and stop it from being overwhelming out of the gate
Varkrey (NA)
: Unique Passive: Recovers 50/100/150 (1-5/6-10/11-18) mana every time a large neutral monster is killed. Problem solved.
: > [{quoted}](name=NaCl Jungler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Fu1HU0O,comment-id=00180000,timestamp=2015-03-18T20:31:12.630+0000) > > That would still mean denying your mid-laner blue True. Still, Blue buff goes to the player who best needs/uses it. Not always the mid laner. Best to sort that out prior to the game though. It's not a good idea to pick a teamcomp where the jungler and the midlaner are both seriously lacking in mana, let alone a teamcomp where you have too much AP. Those are just things that you live with when you play. And if double duration is too much, they can always tweak it afterwards.
Well AD casters like talon/Pantheon still like blue buff so that arguement isn't 100% valid. I think it seems much easier to just balance the item purely around the jungler and not have to account for mid-lane. After all if you are first pick you can't control who your mid laner chooses..
: Alternatively, have the magus enchant double the duration of your blue buffs, which would mean that there's a very clear way to fight back against them. denial of buffs would be key versus magus enchants, meaning that counterjungling would be strong again too! And junglers would have even more incentive to hunt down buff stealers.
That would still mean denying your mid-laner blue
: While I agree in theory that Magus needs more mana sustain, Diana in particular can clear with almost no mana spent because her passive is her most damaging spell. Don't waste Q on camps at all, and only use E if you need the shield, and you shouldn't really be going oom with her.
This might work for the first 10 minutes of the game but you are going to hit a point where just auto attacking camps to death takes far too long in the mid-game
: I generally play Cho as tanky AP when I go mid, and I play him as a tank when I go jungle. I haven't done AP jung Cho, so that's something to try out.
> [{quoted}](name=TheI3igDaddy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0Fu1HU0O,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2015-03-18T06:26:52.676+0000) > > I generally play Cho as tanky AP when I go mid, and I play him as a tank when I go jungle. I haven't done AP jung Cho, so that's something to try out. I think Cho is very good out of the jungle with Magus, RoA and Frozen heart. The rest is situational more Ap or tank.
: Cho'gath has no mana issues in the jungle; you just level his E first and you can clear camps just from AA'ing.
Yes, but if you want to play Cho as pure ap or tanky AP you need to max W or Q first to have burst damage. Maxing E relegates you into a tanky role because you need to be tanky enough to enter melee range and beat people down.
: I like the idea of getting mana leaching back, but let's make sure it only applies to neutral monsters so we don't make a jungle item the new mid lane item of choice.
Yeah that's a given, I'll update main post I think
: Again, I'd rather have that void be filled by something else, and leave room on Magus for other, actually interesting stuff. Not that I'd complain about Magus, since it's not an item I'm reliant on when jungling Akali, if it's AP is nerfed or it's cost is increased, that'll just put it further down on the priority list. If it starts not being worth it i'll get another enchant. But if it's likened to what cinderhulk did for tank junglers, especially what Bami's Cinder does, and at what price it does it, then really what we want is an offensive-minded chalice item now isn't it? And really, until you finish morello or chalice in lane, you're having a pretty hard time with your mana regen, simply because there's no AP+mana regen item to land on (and I think the only AP+mana item to land on is {{item:3057}}, but i could be wrong there). At least junglers have the blue buff for their really early game, if you're having trouble conserving your mana enough to gank then there are multiple ways around that problem, runes/masteries can help you regen, while if you're a true mage then you'll probably want a proper mana regen item anyway ('cause if the mana regen on the jungle item is too good then mid laners would just start picking smite). Some cases like Diana would probably want an item with AP+mana regen+CDR around the 900-1300 gold price level, as would every mana using midlaner. The real issue is the lack of diversity in high offensive AP+mana regen items, since there's really just Morello and Archangel's there. There's no item between the extreme mana focus of AA's and the heavy offensive AP+CDR+Grievous wounds of Morellonomicon, Athene's falls somewhere off to the side, being a middling AP+CDR+MR+mana regen item, which doesn't get you enough of any one thing to feel compelling, and which still doesn't let you have both mana regen and AP on one item in it's build path. That's the real issue here in my opinion, the fact that there's no unfinished item with mana regen and AP, and that the only unfinished item with mana and AP is Sheen. --- A more meta-level what-if discussion on the topic, is that if Riot ties mana (an attribute not actually used by quite a number of champions) to the only AP jungle item, they effectively block themselves out of later introducing an AP jungler who doesn't use mana, without building them around the fact that they're expected to waste resources. There's already quite a few off-meta niche pick junglers (or whatever term you'd use to describe not a widespread thing) out there who uses AP but not mana. Heck, AP Rek'Sai was (and still might be for all i know, I don't really play that much pvp yet) a thing, should the players who lowes that and makes it work even if it's not optimal any longer be forced out because of a need to rework Magus? I mean, the answer could be yes, but it could also be to make an item which is a good alternative to all mana hungry ability reliant champions who can't really sacrifice AP for mana early and also have to make constant use of their abilities. And then give Magus something really interesting, which benefits all users of it. --- I mean that's what made Cinderhulk kinda cool, and forgives the fact that they removed an alternative for Tenacity from the game, that it doesn't matter what kind of tanky jungler you are, your clears WILL be faster, bonus health from your tanky items will help you later on, And hey, you could even get Bami's Cinder and then sell it when your clears are good enough if that's a viable strategy. Cinderhulk doesn't just solve a specific problem, it gets you two kinds of unique utility which anyone can benefit from. Mana regen of any kind fixes one problem alone, running out of mana. And the only ones who can benefit from that, are the ones who get in trouble because they run out of mana and can't afford to fix it in any of the mundane ways (backing, getting mana pots, getting a mana regen item, getting a proper mana item, getting blue buff). It is of my belief that a mana regen+AP item to be part of a build path to a full item with really good mana regen and AP would make life so much easier for both mana hungry AP junglers, and mana hungry AP mid-laners. Whereas a buff/change to Magus to incorporate some cooler aspects to it (like an active to empower the next ability used, or anything else cool and useful and interesting that riot comes up with) would be a cool change for AP Junglers, mana hungry or not. --- P.S. sorry for the wall of text, i'm writing in the middle of the night and they tend to just happen T.T
This is.. a lot to reply to, I'll try to hit your main points - In regards to chalice - not really, you cant compare laning vs jungling on mages. In the jungle you need to be able to spam your spells to clear effectively in lane you can conserve mana and last hit with autos, the dynamic is completely different. Whatever form of mana regen this item gives need to A) Be very high to sustain the mana cost of spell spamming B) Only be active when you are fighting jungle mobs for the sake of balance. I.e. ganking and roaming will not grant any mana regen at all, only fighting mobs. This will it is still possible to go oom pressuring lanes but you should be able to sustain fighting the jungle, also make it useless on laners. Also Chalice cost too much.. its 1000g. I really dont think you should balance anything around AP Reksai.. you should focus on what benefits the majority even if it means hurting the very small minority. Manaless AP champions who want to jungle can just skip the jungle item and get on with their core build anyways, it's not that big of a detriment. I dont know all this business about altering spells seems like it would be a lot of work and specific to each champion.. you could add like %AP DoT damage to mobs on auto attacks or spell casts like the one that machete already has but additionally based on AP but outside of that I can't see it working. Again I think you should just cater to what the majority of AP jungles need; and that is mana. Make the jungle item only activate when fighting jungle mobs and therefore its useless on mid-laners. Problem solved.
: Let's give Magus the Cinderhulk treatment
I would love to get a riot opinion post on this :^)
shalexade (OCE)
: ignite: 50 + (20 x lvl) on a 210 second cooldown Skirmishers blade: 54 + (6 × level) on a 75 second cooldown (15 seconds with the stack system) PLUS 20% damage reduction PLUS additional objective control. I'll tell you which one I take if I can replace the nomicon with a magus for my mana regen needs :D
Probably still ignite, you have to pay to get skirmishers
: I like the idea, but they should probably nerf {{champion:76}} before instituting this change.
Possibly, it would make her even more ridiculous if she was able to sustain her mana
Drakylon (NA)
: How about adding a passive to Magus that refunds a portion of any resource used when in combat with a jungle monster? Out of all the resourceless champions, only Katarina would even think of buying Magus, and this passive would also benefit Energy and Fury champions alongside mana ones.
Uh this change is meant for AP (mana-reliant) junglers If you really wanted to jungle kat just leave machete as it is and build other stuff
shalexade (OCE)
: Love the idea, would just need to be careful to ensure that it didn't become the mana-regen staple for mid laners instead of the morellonomicon. (vale Chalice)
You can't build magus unless you are running smite ;)
IG Pizza (NA)
: Or perhaps some MPen on the item to allow it to scale into later game. Champs like Elise would benefit significantly from this ;)
I think flat magic pen would be too powerful as well as not really resolve the mana issues they have. It would really only benefit a handful of junglers (Elise, Nidalee, Fizz) and potentially make them even harder to deal with early game while still leaving the rest in a bad spot.
: Nice post. Mana always seems to be the one thing I'm always lacking while Diana Jungle. Magus provides damage, but overall it doesn't do much for the jungler themselves. Sure, you can cast abilities more often...to run out of mana faster. You can hog blue buff, but then other champs (mana hungry mages or tops, I.E Jayce, Orianna, Etc) are kinda blown over. You start to seem more like your own lane in jungle then someone who ganks. Countless times, I've been unabled to gank since I don't have any mana to do so, and then people die and you get raged at for "No ganks from jungler GG". Would gladly sacrifice CD to get some Mana regen. 10/10
Glad someone finally agrees with me, past posts I've made about this seem to be drawing a lot of hate. The reality is I just miss playing AP junglers like I used to in season 4 even if they were extremely off-meta such as Brand and Syndra. I do think junglers like Diana and Gragas for example are very close to being strong picks but just lack the mana sustain to compete with the pressure of top junglers right now
: I feel like just granting bonus Mana Regen would be simple enough. Toss a few Faerie Charms into the build path. Can't squeeze in a Forbidden Idol sadly.
I would be more in favor of just adding in the mana regen or mana vamp on the completed item, similarly to how tank junglers need to farm the 1000g sunfire item before they can reap the benefits of powerfarming and sustained clears.
GIJose65 (NA)
: -makes a post related to reddit on GD well.....its been nice knowing you OP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si9jtxDZ5uQ
> [{quoted}](name=GIJose65,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=sT4f3jw3,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-03-18T00:16:46.095+0000) > > -makes a post related to reddit on GD > > > well.....its been nice knowing you OP > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si9jtxDZ5uQ Just trying to get my opinion out, didn't know people hated reddit so much around here
Rule 34 (NA)
: > Most people will probably agree that Warrior and Cinderhulk are in a pretty healthy spot right now I'm sorry what
> [{quoted}](name=Rule 34,realm=NA,application-id=mNBeEEkI,discussion-id=sT4f3jw3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-18T00:15:44.017+0000) > > I'm sorry what That they are relatively balanced items. You know? It's not that hard to understand.
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