Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T19:56:36.723+0000) > > All the stats i can find have her 0-20 min win rate around 42% a) Can you provide some source? I didn't find anything b) Game that last less than 20 minutes are a very minority...how is clearly shown by Sona overall win rate c) A 42% win rate at 20 minutes DOESN'T mean she is bad for the first 20 m d) A champion strength is judged by his/her overall performances, not splitting a game into segments: your first statement was about your friends telling you that she is "bad cause takes too long to etc" and, atm, that statement is false PERIOD You wanna now go more in dept on Sona early for some reasons? Ok, but is not the same topic anymore
> [{quoted}](name=SUPERSATANA,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T20:08:42.221+0000) > > a) Can you provide some source? I didn't find anything > b) Game that last less than 20 minutes are a very minority...how is clearly shown by Sona overall win rate > c) A 42% win rate at 20 minutes DOESN'T mean she is bad for the first 20 m > d) A champion strength is judged by his/her overall performances, not splitting a game into segments: your first statement was about your friends telling you that she is "bad cause takes too long to etc" and, atm, that statement is false PERIOD > You wanna now go more in dept on Sona early for some reasons? Ok, but is not the same topic anymore https://champion.gg/champion/Sona/Support under 20 min games are a minority, as are over 40 min games. But you still have to account for those games to some extent, or else you end up with cases where a champion is broken in one way or another when those games do happen. At what point over or under 50% would you then say a champion can be defined as good or bad? A champion with a 53% win rate is "too strong" to many people, but a champion with a 45% win rate is "not weak". Overall performance and a vertical slice are not the same thing. Just because a champion is over all "fine" doesn't mean that aspects of them aren't an issue. What data would you need to judge how good or bad Sona's first 20 mins are? Not how good she is "over all" specifically that first 20 mins?
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-03T18:40:18.538+0000) > >I'm saying her early game is bad and it takes way to long to get to that late game. Yeah she is a hyper carry champion, but it still usually takes like 15-20 mins to get to your power spike. If the average game is 30 mins long that means you are spending something like 50-66% of it being underwhelming. I honestly don't get why you think something like that. Pro tip: a champ would NEVER have such a good win rate with an early as bad as you are describing, is just not happening. A win rate THAT good typically mean that the champ is NEVER that bad at any stage of the game, ESPECIALLY the early one that is CRUCIAL in solo q.
> [{quoted}](name=SUPERSATANA,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T18:55:03.183+0000) > > I honestly don't get why you think something like that. > Pro tip: a champ would NEVER have such a good win rate with an early as bad as you are describing, is just not happening. > A win rate THAT good typically mean that the champ is NEVER that bad at any stage of the game, ESPECIALLY the early one that is CRUCIAL in solo q. All the stats i can find have her 0-20 min win rate around 42%, if that was her average people would agree she was weak. After the 20 min mark her win rate tends to skyrocket up to about 52% and doesn't change more then 1% up or down. So the question then becomes WHY? I'd argue that it's because you tend to finally get a few things around that point. You get an additional 15% CDR on your base numbers for your basic abilities, putting you around 55-58.75% CDR on your basics. This is also usually around the point where you start to get items you need. This tends to be around the point where you cap your CDR from items, while also being around the point where you finally start building some AP to offset your low base numbers. Personally i would love to see Riot remove Sona's ultimate passive and simply reduce the base cooldown on her basic spells by 25%, (while also lowering the starting mana cost that ends at the same point as current). This gives Sona more ability to interact with the lane without just giving her straight up more damage / sustain / what have you.
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T06:11:25.344+0000) > > Fine. I think {{champion:37}} takes to long to get up and running. And the average thing i hear back is "her late game though". > > I don't believe that if a champion in a different role had that issue, or if we had a champion who was the inverse (broken for the first 10-15 mins, meh from 15-20, garbage from 25+) that we wouldn't see massive buffs or a straight up rework. Sona currently sits at 53,75% the 2nd highest of every champ, the first if you consider only champions with a significant pick rate. So your friends are dead wrong
> [{quoted}](name=SUPERSATANA,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2018-12-03T11:01:58.838+0000) > > Sona currently sits at 53,75% the 2nd highest of every champ, the first if you consider only champions with a significant pick rate. > So your friends are dead wrong Her late game is amazing, not arguing that in the least. I'm saying her early game is bad and it takes way to long to get to that late game. Yeah she is a hyper carry champion, but it still usually takes like 15-20 mins to get to your power spike. If the average game is 30 mins long that means you are spending something like 50-66% of it being underwhelming. I can't think of any other champion that has the same kind of issue, sure there are other hyper carries and it does take some time to get them to their power spike, but none take more then half the game to get their.
: Sona has a lot of strength in the first levels (Roughly 1-3/4) If you can apply that strength hard enough you can buy time for it to reach late-game and can get you to *your* late game faster. She's a lot like Caitlyn in that respect - A solid lane-bully due to damage and range, shit mid-game, and then scales up really well in late. How long games last with Sona depends on the comp and your skill.
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T06:41:04.039+0000) > > Sona has a lot of strength in the first levels (Roughly 1-3/4) If you can apply that strength hard enough you can buy time for it to reach late-game and can get you to *your* late game faster. > > She's a lot like Caitlyn in that respect - A solid lane-bully due to damage and range, shit mid-game, and then scales up really well in late. > > How long games last with Sona depends on the comp and your skill. I have to disagree. With damage being what it is for basically everyone, the fact that Sona has one offensive spell, and honestly not even a strong one, just doesn't cut it to be a lane bully anymore. Everyone out damages you, Janna and Soraka (E) have a stronger poke, unless you get the AA reset from powercord. You have no engage / disengage tool for your ally (550 range powercord that requires your last spell cast to be E, is not reliable), your sustain is an expensive joke during the lane phase, you can't even really play that passively and simply enhance your allies damage output since the buff only lasts for a single shot and can't be used against structures (so their goes siege power). There was a point where Sona was in a good place you had the damage to pressure lane but not auto lock it down, over all damage output was lower so your sustain (while not great) was often enough to matter in the long run of trading a couple chip shots. Honestly i'm not even conviced Sona was made weak, i think she simply didn't change with the game and what was fair and balanced for a champion in season 5 is an outdated wreck of a champion going into season 9.
: Just say the name of the damn champ instead of hyper over complicating the issue, LOL.
> [{quoted}](name=SUPERSATANA,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-03T05:59:13.175+0000) > > Just say the name of the damn champ instead of hyper over complicating the issue, LOL. Fine. I think {{champion:37}} takes to long to get up and running. And the average thing i hear back is "her late game though". I don't believe that if a champion in a different role had that issue, or if we had a champion who was the inverse (broken for the first 10-15 mins, meh from 15-20, garbage from 25+) that we wouldn't see massive buffs or a straight up rework.
Rioter Comments
: To be honest, I'd say the newer champions are more flawed than the old ones.
> [{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-11-29T07:36:31.022+0000) > > To be honest, I'd say the newer champions are more flawed than the old ones. ...it's an odd situation really. If "every" character made after X point is 'flawed', if that number is higher then characters made before that point. do you judge the pool by age or number? Like old school {{champion:37}} and {{champion:16}} were toxic as fuck for the game. But they were toxic in a way that is TOTALLY different then say 'new' champions like {{champion:84}} / {{champion:39}} / or even older champions like {{champion:17}} .
: I want Sona overhauled, not buffed. She's a solo queue **problem.** If anything, prep for a potential nerf if things go any better for her than they are now.
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P198cTGL,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-11-28T07:00:13.925+0000) > > I want Sona overhauled, not buffed. > > She's a solo queue **problem.** If anything, prep for a potential nerf if things go any better for her than they are now. i feel like you can buff her early game without making her late game any better. Maybe give her back the old ultimate passive of 20,30,40 instead of the current 10,25,40. Boom she starts her power spike several minutes earlier, but still caps out at the same point. I do agree though i think a full overhaul would be quite interesting. See how Sona's "identity" translates into what the game has become since she was last reworked.
Kalikko (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=000300010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-28T06:19:48.807+0000) > > In the end i could argue with you all day and night (and part of me wants to because i'm convinced you are wrong). Regardless i think Sona needs a better early game. It doesn't have to start at level one and just go up from their, but i would like a champion who isn't defined by getting to level 11 and abusing your 58/59% CDR. Sona is a scaling enchanter support. No amount of you saying otherwise is going to change this. No amount of you belittling things you obviously don't understand will change this. No amount of you saying otherwise will change what the developers of Sona, RIOT and Rioter Fearless, says she is. You can't understand how healing is a buff. . your words. . .I can't help you anymore. You're being belligerently ignorant. Good day sir.
> [{quoted}](name=Kalikko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=0003000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-28T06:50:23.182+0000) > > Sona is a scaling enchanter support. > > No amount of you saying otherwise is going to change this. > > No amount of you belittling things you obviously don't understand will change this. > > No amount of you saying otherwise will change what the developers of Sona, RIOT and Rioter Fearless, says she is. > > > You can't understand how healing is a buff. . your words. . .I can't help you anymore. You're being belligerently ignorant. > > Good day sir. A scaling champion can scale well before level 11. This is a thing many other scaling champions do. Riot changed Sona 4+ years ago, are you going to look me in the eye and honestly say that the game hasn't shifted in that time frame? That it is not possible that what was fair and balanced 4+ years ago might not be so today? Healing is not a buff. Janna's ultimate is not a buff for her team, {{champion:44}} has buffing but it sure isn't his freaking heal. No one is going to argue that {{item:1059}} buff is it's healing instead of its bonus damage. honestly the only heal i would say is a buff is {{champion:267}} because it literally also gives you a movement speed boost WHICH IS A BUFF. You also keep dodging the point that Sona's kit is defined by it's ability (and need) to land a lot of spells, where many other kits just need to land 1 or 2.
: **_NO AND STOP ASKING_**
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P198cTGL,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-28T05:44:22.350+0000) > > **_NO AND STOP ASKING_** ..... weren't you literally arguing for this shit in my other post.....
Kalikko (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-28T04:42:46.007+0000) > > So we clearly disagree on Sona. But let me pose this differently. What is Sona suppose to do during lane phase? does she do that job well? If no, then at what point does she start doing her job well? > > My issue remains that she doesn't really do much of anything during the lane phase against the vast majority of champions. If she is suppose to be a enhancer support through the entire game, then she needs to have actual enhancer abilities that you can use through out the entire game, not just post 25 mins. > Sona doesn't buff her laner until 25 minutes? Have you ever read her spells? Q- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura will gain additional magic damage on their next attack within 5 seconds. W- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura will gain shield for 1.5 seconds. E- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura gain Movement Speed for 3 seconds. In addition to the poke, heal, and speed up those same abilities also give. Also, its not 'we' that disagree on Sona. Its YOU that disagree with the people who made Sona and the game. > Champion Insights Sona, designed by Fearless So, let’s get to the why part! Essentially, we took Sona to the update board because we saw a unique opportunity to make her more rewarding and more fun. She wasn’t terribly strong or weak, but her kit clearly lacked high moments and overall satisfaction. We wanted to keep her theme as it was and retain her awesome Crescendo while giving her basic abilities a more visible and tangible impact. Oh, and if we could sneak in some fancy texture updates in the process (and we could!), then all the better. So what’s changed? Well, Sona’s gameplay now revolves more around moments of power. Instead of hanging back and winning a war of attrition during laning, Sona’s now got the kit to power up her allies and save their lives when a fight turns against them. Auras are smaller and more visible now, so getting the most of them requires great positional awareness for Sona and coordination with her allies. This allows us to reward great play with much more impact for each of her songs. You’ll be able to make plays as Sona, earn your team kills and save lives with clutch ability casts and smart positioning. At the same time, the enemy team has larger windows to fight back in thanks to her longer cooldowns, adding in clarity and counterplay to Sona’s kit. We can't wait to see what players can do with her update.
> [{quoted}](name=Kalikko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-28T05:24:05.797+0000) > > Sona doesn't buff her laner until 25 minutes? Have you ever read her spells? > > Q- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura will gain additional magic damage on their next attack within 5 seconds. > > W- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura will gain shield for 1.5 seconds. > > E- Melody: Sona gains an aura for 3 seconds. Allied champions that enter the aura gain Movement Speed for 3 seconds. > > In addition to the poke, heal, and speed up those same abilities also give. > > > Also, its not 'we' that disagree on Sona. > > Its YOU that disagree with the people who made Sona and the game. > Sona, designed by Fearless > > So, let’s get to the why part! > > Essentially, we took Sona to the update board because we saw a unique opportunity to make her more rewarding and more fun. She wasn’t terribly strong or weak, but her kit clearly lacked high moments and overall satisfaction. We wanted to keep her theme as it was and retain her awesome Crescendo while giving her basic abilities a more visible and tangible impact. Oh, and if we could sneak in some fancy texture updates in the process (and we could!), then all the better. > > So what’s changed? Well, Sona’s gameplay now revolves more around moments of power. Instead of hanging back and winning a war of attrition during laning, Sona’s now got the kit to power up her allies and save their lives when a fight turns against them. Auras are smaller and more visible now, so getting the most of them requires great positional awareness for Sona and coordination with her allies. This allows us to reward great play with much more impact for each of her songs. You’ll be able to make plays as Sona, earn your team kills and save lives with clutch ability casts and smart positioning. At the same time, the enemy team has larger windows to fight back in thanks to her longer cooldowns, adding in clarity and counterplay to Sona’s kit. We can't wait to see what players can do with her update. Q- Melody: 10-30 magic damage on allies next auto attack, you can't use against turrets and it can be used up against a basic minion. This is a BAD buff. Q passively you waste most of the power of the ability to give an ally a very underwhelming damage buff. Let's look at {{champion:117}} or {{champion:267}} or {{champion:40}} all three of these give an enhancement that actually helps your ally win a fight and for two of them the freaking buff doesn't fall off hit they auto attack a minion. W- Melody: This is not a buff, it can trigger buffs from items but it is not in and of itself a buff. E- Melody: This one just never seems to work right for me. Like honestly i'll pop it and tag an ally, we still can't seem to out pace the enemy who is 20-50 MS slower then us. In the end i could argue with you all day and night (and part of me wants to because i'm convinced you are wrong). Regardless i think Sona needs a better early game. It doesn't have to start at level one and just go up from their, but i would like a champion who isn't defined by getting to level 11 and abusing your 58/59% CDR.
Kalikko (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2018-11-28T02:05:21.290+0000) > > > 1) Sona has one of the lowest win-loss ratios in the game during the 0-20 min mark. This is the data i want focused on. She's designed to be an AoE enchanter support. Janna, another enchanter support, has similar stats. So does Lulu, ect. Most enchanter supports fall into this. AoE buffs obviously get better in an AoE enviroment. Aka team fights. I find it funny you ignore her as the **HIGHEST WIN RATIO CHAMP IN THE ENTIRE GAME RIGHT NOW** because she is a **SCALING CHAMPION**. That's like saying Karthus or Veigar are bad because they need items/time to scale. Zero logic. > 2) The issue is you NEED to build that stuff before she "gets good". Look at other supports, items help but their kits are still designed to do their thing. heals better with items, but she can still heal pretty decently by pumping points into the skill. Yes, I agree. She's a scaling champion. Thats what they do. They scale. Mid lane Zilean has been at the top of win/loss for mid all season long. Guess what. He's a scaling champion. His pre-20 minute w/l is bad. Thats what they do. Champions are early designed for early, mid or late scaling. A mix of them is key to part of a good team composition. I guess you've never seen a Kayle go 0-6-0 in lane phase, only to destroy your entire team at 25 minutes. > 3) Sona is able to really abuse a lot of items and that's great. Problem is that when you balance a champion around how they can abuse an item, they first have to GET the item. can really abuse and that item line, but if he does trash damage until he gets it then you have an issue where he simply doesn't work right for a chunk of the game. Let's say i rush , i'm still probably looking at about 4000 gold spent on items before i get to "abuse" this thing. 4000 gold takes quite a while to get on a support if you aren't getting kills/assists. See my first two points. Saying a champion is bad because they scale late vs mid or early isn't an argument.. . its a lack of understanding of this game. > 4) Sona is a an aggressive high risk, low-ish reward champion for the early game and that is the problem. 40-100 damage with an eight second cooldown (100-160 on a 7.2 if you account for her ult passive between lvl 6-9) is really bad for a champion that needs to be constantly aggressive. Sona has a great mid and late game, I really enjoy the idea of a hyper carry support. I just wish her early game wasn't such a drawn out pain to crawl through. She's not a hyper carry support. She's an enchanter support. THIS seems to be the point you are missing and can't seem to wrap your brain around. Her damage isn't supposed to be the same as brands. . . .she's NOT a carry support. Her value lies in buffs and debuffs. . . healing, slowing, armor pen, speed up.. . . .. I know what your problem is. You think sona should be an early game hyper carry. Sorry, that's not what she is. Its so far off the mark, its no wonder you're confused.
> [{quoted}](name=Kalikko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2018-11-28T02:33:50.692+0000) > > She's designed to be an AoE enchanter support. Janna, another enchanter support, has similar stats. So does Lulu, ect. Most enchanter supports fall into this. AoE buffs obviously get better in an AoE enviroment. Aka team fights. > > I find it funny you ignore her as the **HIGHEST WIN RATIO CHAMP IN THE ENTIRE GAME RIGHT NOW** because she is a **SCALING CHAMPION**. That's like saying Karthus or Veigar are bad because they need items/time to scale. Zero logic. > > Yes, I agree. She's a scaling champion. Thats what they do. They scale. Mid lane Zilean has been at the top of win/loss for mid all season long. Guess what. He's a scaling champion. His pre-20 minute w/l is bad. Thats what they do. > > Champions are early designed for early, mid or late scaling. A mix of them is key to part of a good team composition. I guess you've never seen a Kayle go 0-6-0 in lane phase, only to destroy your entire team at 25 minutes. > > See my first two points. Saying a champion is bad because they scale late vs mid or early isn't an argument.. . its a lack of understanding of this game. > Sona has a great mid and late game, I really enjoy the idea of a hyper carry support. I just wish her early game wasn't such a drawn out pain to crawl through. > > She's not a hyper carry support. She's an enchanter support. > THIS seems to be the point you are missing and can't seem to wrap your brain around. > > Her damage isn't supposed to be the same as brands. . . .she's NOT a carry support. Her value lies in buffs and debuffs. . . healing, slowing, armor pen, speed up.. . . .. > > > I know what your problem is. You think sona should be an early game hyper carry. > > Sorry, that's not what she is. Its so far off the mark, its no wonder you're confused. So we clearly disagree on Sona. But let me pose this differently. What is Sona suppose to do during lane phase? does she do that job well? If no, then at what point does she start doing her job well? My issue remains that she doesn't really do much of anything during the lane phase against the vast majority of champions. If she is suppose to be a enhancer support through the entire game, then she needs to have actual enhancer abilities that you can use through out the entire game, not just post 25 mins. Also i'm not arguing that she needs {{champion:63}} level of damage output, i'm arguing that i really shouldn't be losing a trade with {{champion:40}} or {{champion:17}} . I'm arguing that a champion who's kit is based around casting a lot of low impact spells, instead of 1-2 big ones, should be able to cast a lot of spells without needing 40%+ CDR to keep pace. The last big change they made to her was to add the passive to her ultimate. They did this specifically because they noted that she wasn't able to keep up given that her abilities are rather weak individually. I'm simply suggesting maybe take the passive away and just reduce her base cooldowns by 25% (at least on her Q and W). She keeps the high risk high reward aspect of her kit, gains the means to maintain pressure / Keep her teammate alive during lane phase, and no longer has a late game where she is running around with a possible 67% CDR. Or if you want her to be more of an enhancer type character maybe give her some half decent freaking enhancement abilities. Split the difference between her old version and this new one. Give her the ability to give actual buffs but have them only last for like 4 seconds if you are within a fairly close range to her. Maybe Q gives flat bonus AD/AP, or lethality while the aura is active. You know something that might actually help your ally win the lane, instead of a tiny boost of bonus damage that doesn't work on buildings but can still be wasted on a minion.
Kalikko (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-28T01:29:44.272+0000) > > That doesn't change the fact that they exist and that support has shifted towards rewarding kits with high base damage, stuns, engage/disengage tools, or other means of interacting with the game that don't require you to have max out CDR. > > Let's look at Sona at level 9. Assuming you focused on damage your Q is now doing 160 base damage at rank 5 with a base cooldown of 7.2 seconds. Your heal is doing a base 50 points with a base cooldown of 9 seconds. These are REALLY bad numbers both in amount and how long their cooldown is. If we assume you focused on healing, your numbers are Q= 70 magic damage, and you are healing for 110. Again these are really bad numbers for a champion at level 9. Maybe you are going to argue that i need to account for item CDR and AP, sure what do you think is a fair number at that point in the game? I'm going to say 35% CDR and 75 AP, no bonus healing from items. Your numbers are now 205 damage on a 4.68 second cooldown, and a heal of 69 on a 5.85 second cooldown if you went offensive, and 115 damage and 129 healing if you went supportive. These remain very bad numbers considering that Sona doesn't have a second offensive spell, and doesn't have a stun outside of her ult (that would have a 91 second cooldown). > > The issue is simply that Sona is based around casting a lot of small impact spells, compared to most other champions who are based around landing one big impact thing ({{champion:89}} being a good example of a champ that needs to usually use 2 abilities for the one big impact thing). Even when you get something like {{item:3100}} your power comes from being able to abuse the trigger multiple times rather then one shot with it. I think you are missing a key idea here. Sona is an enchanter support. Most of her value lies in buffing her allies. Her base damage is nice, and at times useful, but her true value lies in the buffs she spreads out to her entire team and the debuffs she places on enemies. Add those factors into your math. I'll wait.
> [{quoted}](name=Kalikko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-28T01:49:57.441+0000) > > I think you are missing a key idea here. > > Sona is an enchanter support. Most of her value lies in buffing her allies. Her base damage is nice, and at times useful, but her true value lies in the buffs she spreads out to her entire team and the debuffs she places on enemies. > > Add those factors into your math. I'll wait. Ok i HAVE to fight you on this one. 10-52 bonus magic damage on a single auto attack (not against structures) is a pretty piss poor enhancement. A 25-50 point shield that lasts 1.5 seconds is really lack luster. Plus 30-35 MS for 3 seconds is "nice" but often not enough to get you / your ally into or out of range. Sure these numbers are much different when you look at her late game, at the point where you are tagging multiple allies and have the AP to make each instance of the numbers impressive. But again i am trying to focus on her early game. The point where you don't have max CDR and 25-40% bonus CDR on basic abilities. The point where you are most likely tagging a single ally. Hell let's imagine the smallest of small changes to Sona, her Q bonus damage lasts 3 seconds (would prefer 4-5) and CAN NOT be used against minions. How much of a difference does that make to how you and your ally interact with the game? Let's go a step further, her bonus damage also can be applied by abilities, now all of a sudden tagging {{champion:103}} actually helps her do more damage.
Kalikko (NA)
: What I think is hilarious about your post. . .. 1) Sona has one of the highest win loss ratios in the game right now. Period. She's been in one spot or another in the top 5 for the last several months. 2) Sona is the best scaling support, damage wise, period. She's border line busted. You can build whatever you want, whatever runes you want, and she still wins. Aery, comet, klepto, dark harvest. . .all of them are good, and all of them work. The ability to build things like ardent censor early, which buffs her damage AND her ally's damage is why she's been dominating. (Not to mention that both Klepto and Dark harvest AP damage bonuses procing) And its not just me saying this. The [data](https://champion.gg/champion/Sona/Support) and [professionals](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUANXECSQ40) also agree. 3) Sona is not the most mobile of supports, but she's still pretty damn mobile. The AoE speed buff she gives is fantastic, and the fact that she's giving a shield AND an ardent buff on EVERYONE in RANGE with 2 of her 3 main spells is so busted, they're nerfing it on the only champ that does something similar upcoming [rework](https://www.riftherald.com/lol-gameplay/2018/10/24/18019252/karma-rework-kit-update) 4) Sona is an aggressive, high risk, high reward support. . . . the Draven of supports, if you will. You named off a list of supports with their crowd control abilities. Given she was specifically[ rebalanced](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/champion-update/sona-maven-of-the-strings) 4 years ago exactly to THIS play-style, means adding crowd control to any of her base abilities would be like adding wings to a tiger. 5) Sona and her play-style might not be for you. This is okay. Not every champion is designed for the same type of player. Go play something else. {{sticker:sona-playing}}
> [{quoted}](name=Kalikko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-28T01:28:52.781+0000) > > What I think is hilarious about your post. . .. > > 1) Sona has one of the highest win loss ratios in the game right now. Period. > She's been in one spot or another in the top 5 for the last several months. > > 2) Sona is the best scaling support, damage wise, period. > She's border line busted. You can build whatever you want, whatever runes you want, and she still wins. Aery, comet, klepto, dark harvest. . .all of them are good, and all of them work. The ability to build things like ardent censor early, which buffs her damage AND her ally's damage is why she's been dominating. (Not to mention that both Klepto and Dark harvest AP damage bonuses procing) And its not just me saying this. The [data](https://champion.gg/champion/Sona/Support) and [professionals](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUANXECSQ40) also agree. > > 3) Sona is not the most mobile of supports, but she's still pretty damn mobile. The AoE speed buff she gives is fantastic, and the fact that she's giving a shield AND an ardent buff on EVERYONE in RANGE with 2 of her 3 main spells is so busted, they're nerfing it on the only champ that does something similar upcoming [rework](https://www.riftherald.com/lol-gameplay/2018/10/24/18019252/karma-rework-kit-update) > > 4) Sona is an aggressive, high risk, high reward support. . . . the Draven of supports, if you will. You named off a list of supports with their crowd control abilities. Given she was specifically[ rebalanced](https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/champion-update/sona-maven-of-the-strings) 4 years ago exactly to THIS play-style, means adding crowd control to any of her base abilities would be like adding wings to a tiger. > > 5) Sona and her play-style might not be for you. This is okay. Not every champion is designed for the same type of player. Go play something else. > > {{sticker:sona-playing}} I feel you have missed my point, though i have bitched about this alot so i forget if i made it clear in this post. 1) Sona has one of the lowest win-loss ratios in the game during the 0-20 min mark. This is the data i want focused on. 2) The issue is you NEED to build that stuff before she "gets good". Look at other supports, items help but their kits are still designed to do their thing. {{champion:16}} heals better with items, but she can still heal pretty decently by pumping points into the skill. 3) Sona is able to really abuse a lot of items and that's great. Problem is that when you balance a champion around how they can abuse an item, they first have to GET the item. {{champion:81}} can really abuse {{item:3057}} and that item line, but if he does trash damage until he gets it then you have an issue where he simply doesn't work right for a chunk of the game. Let's say i rush {{item:3504}} , i'm still probably looking at about 4000 gold spent on items before i get to "abuse" this thing. 4000 gold takes quite a while to get on a support if you aren't getting kills/assists. 4) Sona is a an aggressive high risk, low-ish reward champion for the early game and that is the problem. 40-100 damage with an eight second cooldown (100-160 on a 7.2 if you account for her ult passive between lvl 6-9) is really bad for a champion that needs to be constantly aggressive. Sona has a great mid and late game, I really enjoy the idea of a hyper carry support. I just wish her early game wasn't such a drawn out pain to crawl through.
: I would like to point out that your opening inference is irrational and just false > outdated and thus flawed and there's a pretty obvious argument that the existence of the excessively offensive designs of the kits of a support champion, particularly in the cases of thresh or rakan, is actually a more flawed design for a support as it fills a role that is antithetical to the support fantasy.
> [{quoted}](name=deadlychuck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-28T00:46:32.750+0000) > > I would like to point out that your opening inference is irrational and just false > > and there's a pretty obvious argument that the existence of the excessively offensive designs of the kits of a support champion, particularly in the cases of thresh or rakan, is actually a more flawed design for a support as it fills a role that is antithetical to the support fantasy. That doesn't change the fact that they exist and that support has shifted towards rewarding kits with high base damage, stuns, engage/disengage tools, or other means of interacting with the game that don't require you to have max out CDR. Let's look at Sona at level 9. Assuming you focused on damage your Q is now doing 160 base damage at rank 5 with a base cooldown of 7.2 seconds. Your heal is doing a base 50 points with a base cooldown of 9 seconds. These are REALLY bad numbers both in amount and how long their cooldown is. If we assume you focused on healing, your numbers are Q= 70 magic damage, and you are healing for 110. Again these are really bad numbers for a champion at level 9. Maybe you are going to argue that i need to account for item CDR and AP, sure what do you think is a fair number at that point in the game? I'm going to say 35% CDR and 75 AP, no bonus healing from items. Your numbers are now 205 damage on a 4.68 second cooldown, and a heal of 69 on a 5.85 second cooldown if you went offensive, and 115 damage and 129 healing if you went supportive. These remain very bad numbers considering that Sona doesn't have a second offensive spell, and doesn't have a stun outside of her ult (that would have a 91 second cooldown). The issue is simply that Sona is based around casting a lot of small impact spells, compared to most other champions who are based around landing one big impact thing ({{champion:89}} being a good example of a champ that needs to usually use 2 abilities for the one big impact thing). Even when you get something like {{item:3100}} your power comes from being able to abuse the trigger multiple times rather then one shot with it.
: Or you are just using Sona wrong.
> [{quoted}](name=MagicFlyingLlama,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W7zH4d1F,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-28T00:50:16.291+0000) > > Or you are just using Sona wrong. Care to actually give advice are just here to act smug?
Rioter Comments
Doge2020 (NA)
: One of the good things about playin Sona in low elo is that not many people respect my damage output with a simple Q+ enchanted AA. I can get away with building a lichbane first because most people will let me poke them and get my spellthief’s money, and with exhaust I can easily set up kills for my ADC or even for myself. The enemy laners let me stay back and I can have a way safer laning phase than they should let me lol.
> [{quoted}](name=Doge2020,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P198cTGL,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-27T17:38:53.139+0000) > > One of the good things about playin Sona in low elo is that not many people respect my damage output with a simple Q+ enchanted AA. I can get away with building a lichbane first because most people will let me poke them and get my spellthief’s money, and with exhaust I can easily set up kills for my ADC or even for myself. The enemy laners let me stay back and I can have a way safer laning phase than they should let me lol. I'm not even that high elo, but i just never seem to run into that anymore. Your right if people don't respect her (let her walk right up and smack them), Sona can output some pretty decent numbers. I really don't like accounting for what Sona "can do" with {{summoner:3}} or {{summoner:4}} because they are on such long cooldowns. It's the same reason i tend to ignore arguments that "Sona totally has a stun" because the thing is on a minute plus cooldown (Sona's ultimate should not be spam-able). An ability that you can only use once every several minutes is not a reliable way to secure kills or escape danger. I do have a question though. At around what level do you usually finish your {{item:3100}} ? Like it tend to go {{item:3098}} into {{item:1001}} into {{item:3070}} into {{item:3158}} then finally into {{item:3174}} . And that shit takes me till at least level 9 to get.
zoliking (NA)
: Sona can zone/poke with her Q right through minions, awesome trading potential with Q + enhanced aa and has great sustain with her healing ability, what the hell are you even talking about?
> [{quoted}](name=zoliking,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P198cTGL,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-27T17:43:19.207+0000) > > Sona can zone/poke with her Q right through minions, awesome trading potential with Q + enhanced aa and has great sustain with her healing ability, what the hell are you even talking about? Sona losses EVERY trade. No seriously, actually trade hits with any opponent and Sona comes out worse for it. What are you talking about her healing is great sustain? The thing does basically nothing during lane phase and is on cooldown so long you might as well not have it if a fight starts. Sure the AA+Q+AA reset is great... sadly it's only possible about once every 30 second if you don't want to burn through your mana at breakneck pace. Sona is a great mid to late game champions, that said her early game is just HORRIBLE. For a champion designed around casting a lot of low-mid impact spells, your kit sure takes it's sweet time getting you to the point where you can cast those spells.
Rioter Comments
Doge2020 (NA)
: I personally don’t have much issue with Sona’s laning phase, I agree it could be better but I like that it is good enough for the player and the opponents to play around. Her poke isn’t overbearing but it also isn’t that much underpowered. I think that her heal CD is understandable for how good it gets late game. Yes her early game is shit but I think that it is understandable for how good her late game can get. She is also squishy because she also has a lot of long range poke with her q, and auto attacks (and her Q passive auto), and she has a lot of safety with w, e and their passive auto attack effects (the damage reduction effect from W passive version and the slow from the E version). Not to mention she also has flash for more safety/aggressiveness and can choose ignite for more kill pressure or exhaust for a more support style champ by exhausting a assassin or somebody to lower their damage output or to slow them to allow you and your team mates to run away or catch up.
> [{quoted}](name=Doge2020,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P198cTGL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-26T20:25:08.953+0000) > > I personally don’t have much issue with Sona’s laning phase, I agree it could be better but I like that it is good enough for the player and the opponents to play around. Her poke isn’t overbearing but it also isn’t that much underpowered. I think that her heal CD is understandable for how good it gets late game. > > Yes her early game is shit but I think that it is understandable for how good her late game can get. She is also squishy because she also has a lot of long range poke with her q, and auto attacks (and her Q passive auto), and she has a lot of safety with w, e and their passive auto attack effects (the damage reduction effect from W passive version and the slow from the E version). Not to mention she also has flash for more safety/aggressiveness and can choose ignite for more kill pressure or exhaust for a more support style champ by exhausting a assassin or somebody to lower their damage output or to slow them to allow you and your team mates to run away or catch up. so i disagree with you. But i feel i need to ask, at what point do you feel her poke is good enough to put some pressure in lane? At what point do you feel her W is giving enough sustain to actually help her ally(s) stay alive in a fight? No one disagrees that her late game is VERY strong, but judging a champion based on how they interact with the game at level 13 is doing a massive disservice if levels 1-12 are like walking on broken glass. Like Sona is "fine" at level 9 or 10... but that also is around the point where you are rocking 35-45% CDR, have the bonus 10% off base cooldown CDR from your ult passive, have probably managed to grab enough items that doing 2-3 rotations of your skills isn't going to run you OOM for the next 2 mins, but most important of all that's also usually around the point where you can start getting your AP stuff / healing items. And that is the basic core issue, you need SO MUCH to get Sona up and running. I'd also like to point out that her passive is pretty bad. On paper it sounds crazy, but you will rarely get a chance to use the abilities to their full extent unless your opponents are really really dumb and just ignoring you all together.
: But I like playing the only hypercarry support.
> [{quoted}](name=Heartless Seraph,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P198cTGL,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-26T19:13:56.649+0000) > > But I like playing the only hypercarry support. I also enjoy the hypercarry aspect. But let me ask you this, how often do you play a game where you manage to get to level 16+ with a support(for more then a minute)? I know for me it's maybe 1 in every 70 games. I just so hate how you don't really do anything during the lane phase, and honestly a good chunk of "mid game". Not enough damage to pressure the lane, not enough sustain to keep your ally safe, your "buffs" are single use so you can't play defensively and just passively make your ally stronger so they win trades. But the thing that keeps really pissing me off is how Sona can't seem to finish off super weakened enemies..... The number of fights i've lost because the enemy still had 5% of their HP after my Q "burst" is just rage inducing.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: They tweaked ward clearing to help supports. If you're the one who revealed an unseen ward, your teammates can help destroy it and you'll still get full value. They most likely have higher AS, but it's usually enough just having multiple people hitting the wards. Since you're usually playing Sona, use her Power Chord AA reset to help you hit them faster. It's not as efficient as Leona's AA reset, but it's still faster than just waiting for your normal AAs.
> [{quoted}](name=Ice Weasel X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GmxpEZiB,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-16T21:37:08.236+0000) > > They tweaked ward clearing to help supports. If you're the one who revealed an unseen ward, your teammates can help destroy it and you'll still get full value. They most likely have higher AS, but it's usually enough just having multiple people hitting the wards. > > Since you're usually playing Sona, use her Power Chord AA reset to help you hit them faster. It's not as efficient as Leona's AA reset, but it's still faster than just waiting for your normal AAs. I feel you missed my point. I know i can get my allies to help, but what i want is the ability to do the job myself in a timely manner. I want to be able to clear 2-3 ward per use of {{item:3364}} (provided there are 2-3 in a small area). I want to be able to kill a ward without giving the enemy champion time to walk from bottom red buff to tri bush to catch me with some long range hook ability. I just want to be able to do the "job" of clearing wards at a reasonable pace. For most mages you don't see them auto attacking so in theory upping their AS (maybe against wards specifically) wouldn't be that bad of an idea.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
: If you think Sona is gonna get nerfed, you can honestly relax. Tank Supports are consisting of the top tier currently. And she's sitting at a healthy 50% winrate.
> [{quoted}](name=Balterein,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAzGvJiV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-01T01:58:29.198+0000) > > If you think Sona is gonna get nerfed, you can honestly relax. Tank Supports are consisting of the top tier currently. And she's sitting at a healthy 50% winrate. Oh i know it's stupid, but it's one of those "knowing my luck" kind of deals. I'm curious to see how good/ bad she will be during preseason with the changes they are putting in.
Rioter Comments
Rioter Comments
CakeMix (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=0016000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T00:48:24.422+0000) > > Let me word the 1 game out of 2000+ differently. > > Imagine this same issue, but it was revealed that Riot did nothing AND then you hear for a bunch of people who had similar "bad games" who DID get punished. All of a sudden it starts looking like Riot is playing favorites. OR this shit happens and it becomes known that Riot won't do anything. More people start to follow suit, now one in every 10 games has someone pulling this crap. Can't punish them because they actually bothered to move and us an ability here and there, so clearly it's not "intentional feeding". What you talking about? For the longest time Riot has not done anything and people have been pulling this crap for a very long time. To the point where I no longer enjoy playing lol anymore since 1 in 10 games is decent and enjoyable, the rest are just a waste of time and effort. So thats already happened. This case of Hashinshins is the first ive heard of Riot doing anything FOR THE LONGEST TIME. But, and here is the point im arguing. 1. It's completely over zealous. Many more innocent players who are just new or bad will get punished unjustly. I teach a few new players how to play (my wife included) and their scores have not been far off what somone would consider inting yet the majority of the time is because they have to play agaisnt obvious smurfs. Would it be fair for them to get banned/suspended? 2. A 14 day suspension is OTT. As i make my other points, do you honnestly believe a 14 day suspension and striped of all rank rewards and honor level is completely justified? 3. Strategies like Inting Sion and Proxy Singed which Riot greenlights could be punished under this. It's just hypercritical. And what about new strategies like the ones i just mentioned that Riot has not greenlit yet? 4. What about players who are getting targeted? There was a player on the Eu side of the board who was getting camped relentlessly for no other reason other than the campers wanting to make 1 player miserable. And got punished for it. Same as Hashinshin. If this starts to really become a thing you will find players WILL seek to target 1 specific player just to brag about dumpstering 1 player so hard that they got banned. And they WILL do this repeatedly as if collecting medals. ---------------------------------------------------- There is no way in hell, no matter how you paint it, that this is in any way acceptable.
> [{quoted}](name=CakeMix,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=00160000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T08:31:21.781+0000) > > What you talking about? > For the longest time Riot has not done anything and people have been pulling this crap for a very long time. > To the point where I no longer enjoy playing lol anymore since 1 in 10 games is decent and enjoyable, the rest are just a waste of time and effort. > > So thats already happened. > This case of Hashinshins is the first ive heard of Riot doing anything FOR THE LONGEST TIME. > But, and here is the point im arguing. > > 1. It's completely over zealous. > Many more innocent players who are just new or bad will get punished unjustly. > I teach a few new players how to play (my wife included) and their scores have not been far off what somone would consider inting yet the majority of the time is because they have to play agaisnt obvious smurfs. > Would it be fair for them to get banned/suspended? > > 2. A 14 day suspension is OTT. > As i make my other points, do you honnestly believe a 14 day suspension and striped of all rank rewards and honor level is completely justified? > > 3. Strategies like Inting Sion and Proxy Singed which Riot greenlights could be punished under this. > It's just hypercritical. > And what about new strategies like the ones i just mentioned that Riot has not greenlit yet? > > 4. What about players who are getting targeted? There was a player on the Eu side of the board who was getting camped relentlessly for no other reason other than the campers wanting to make 1 player miserable. > And got punished for it. Same as Hashinshin. > If this starts to really become a thing you will find players WILL seek to target 1 specific player just to brag about dumpstering 1 player so hard that they got banned. > And they WILL do this repeatedly as if collecting medals. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > There is no way in hell, no matter how you paint it, that this is in any way acceptable. 1) Make the system not flag people who have played under X number of games on that account. Still can be abused by smurfs but it closes the loop hole for higher end players. If you have put in more then a certain number of hours i expect people to know how to play the game. They don't have to be good but if you are going 0/19 then maybe this isn't the game for you. 2) Yes. If you are going to ruin the experience for others your punishment should be something that actually might matter to you, or else what is to stop you from doing it again? 3) I haven't ever had to play with or against inting Sion, but i was under the impression that the strategy was to charge in and get some kills/ assists in exchange for dying. hell i'm not going to report the guy going 0/23/50, but i'm sure going to report the guy going 0/19/4. 4) Keep the system, if it becomes clear that their is a trend towards doing this relook at it and see how it can be fixed to account for this issue. I don't think it's going to be a trend, and even if it is i'm not super sure that most people will be able to get such a score as 0/19/4. A lot of my issue with this is the number of death compared to the amount of time the game ran. I believe something is wrong when you have more then one death per 2 mins of game time played. When you factor in death timers and time to run back to lane/ group, that leaves very little time for the player to be doing anything between deaths. Again this doesn't always hold true 0/19/40 looks A LOT different then 0/19/4.
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=00130000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T00:37:39.447+0000) > > Your right it's not possible to read someone else's mind. That said you can imply a lot of things based on outside information. In this case the "skill level" of the player in question (given that he is in diamond) and how long they have played. I don't believe for a second that someone who is that high or been playing that long can't notice a pattern in their mistakes after a few death. And an automated system can’t detect or factor any of this into its system. Furtheremore, you’re implying that someone basically has to be perfect. Do you have any idea how many outside factors can distract a person to cause them to make a mistake? As someone who’s studied a great deal of cognitive psychology and understands the process of sensory input and output, let me assure you the smallest things can have some major impact (not to mention even when the player focuses on a game, there’s a lot of information that doesn’t make it past the sensory input). Then you have streamers who are constantly distracted by chat, commentating and simply having the burden of knowing they’re being watched. > You admit that you think "soft inting" should be punishable. But then how do you tell when someone is doing that? I think there’s absolutely a chance that people will intentionally feed but not make it obvious as per “running it down mid.” However, I don’t use a term such as “soft inting,” because it implies there’s a dimension to whether someone intended to die or not when there isn’t. If they decide to be more coy about it, it’s intentional feeding all the same and I absolutely believe it should be punished all the same. And I admit there’s definitely more riot can do to address this. However, I do not believe it happens nearly as much as people think it does. In fact, I believe most people label someone simply having a bad game as a “soft inter.” Whether that’s because they can’t handle their own emotions about losing a game and have to project that on to others, I’m not sure, but I believe that’s far more likely to occur than some epidemic of a large group of players going around and cleverly feeding to ruin people’s games. People suck. People tilt. The human brain isn’t perfect, neither is their play. > I'm all for a system that punishes people. I'm personally fine with the idea that you punish 100 people who are abusing the rules, even if it means that say 4-6 people who just had a bad game get caught in the cross fire. It's unrealistic to expect Riot to go over EVERY game that someone got reported in. If the system starts generating to many false positives you simply take it offline for a bit and see what is causing that issue. Then you address it and put the system back up. In theory you eventually weed out the people causing the real problem, then you don't need the system in place (or at least set the way it is) to stop people from ruining the game for others. That’s a 4-6% error rate and that is astronomically too high. You think I want Riot to do too much but you’re asking for Riot to create an automated system that can objectively distinguish the difference between a bad game and intentional feeding when that just isn’t feasible. If someone garners a lot of these intentional feeding reports but the system isn’t flagging it, that’s when I would say Riot can step in and review it. And I can promise you, it doesn’t happen nearly as much as you think it does.
> [{quoted}](name=HateDaddy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=001300000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-27T00:56:31.934+0000) > > And an automated system can’t detect or factor any of this into its system. Furtheremore, you’re implying that someone basically has to be perfect. Do you have any idea how many outside factors can distract a person to cause them to make a mistake? As someone who’s studied a great deal of cognitive psychology and understands the process of sensory input and output, let me assure you the smallest things can have some major impact (not to mention even when the player focuses on a game, there’s a lot of information that doesn’t make it past the sensory input). Then you have streamers who are constantly distracted by chat, commentating and simply having the burden of knowing they’re being watched. > > I think there’s absolutely a chance that people will intentionally feed but not make it obvious as per “running it down mid.” However, I don’t use a term such as “soft inting,” because it implies there’s a dimension to whether someone intended to die or not when there isn’t. If they decide to be more coy about it, it’s intentional feeding all the same and I absolutely believe it should be punished all the same. And I admit there’s definitely more riot can do to address this. However, I do not believe it happens nearly as much as people think it does. In fact, I believe most people label someone simply having a bad game as a “soft inter.” Whether that’s because they can’t handle their own emotions about losing a game and have to project that on to others, I’m not sure, but I believe that’s far more likely to occur than some epidemic of a large group of players going around and cleverly feeding to ruin people’s games. People suck. People tilt. The human brain isn’t perfect, neither is their play. > > That’s a 4-6% error rate and that is astronomically too high. You think I want Riot to do too much but you’re asking for Riot to create an automated system that can objectively distinguish the difference between a bad game and intentional feeding when that just isn’t feasible. If someone garners a lot of these intentional feeding reports but the system isn’t flagging it, that’s when I would say Riot can step in and review it. And I can promise you, it doesn’t happen nearly as much as you think it does. All right let's address this 1) i have zero idea where you are getting this "perfect" bullshit you keep saying. 0/8/>6 isn't perfect but i don't think many people will flag it. 0/19/4 in a 30-ish min game is a red flag. The idea that your death total can be above once per 2 mins without trying is laughable to me. (Of course there are situations where this doesn't hold true, the person who suicides over and over but keeps taking 2-4 players of the enemy team with them.) Like between death timers AND running back to lane that is what like a death every 15-30 seconds of actual interaction with enemies? 2) you don't address the question i posed. What is soft inting? How do you tell when someone is intentionally giving up kills VS. "having a bad game" if the person doesn't just 'run it down mid' or admit to intentionally feeding? There has to be some kind of system to tell the difference. You can even make the system ignore people who have played under X number of games, thus reducing the number of new players that get falsely flagged. 3) a 4-6% error rate isn't great, but i'm willing to live with a flawed rate that high. If you had to guess how many games of LoL do you think happen per hour? Of those games how many do you think get flagged because a player was reported by more then one person? Now out of all of THOSE games how many do you think have time stamps in the reports to the exact moment the player did the thing they are being reported for, or in this games case you kind of have to watch the whole thing. So with no automated system how many employees does Riot need to hire who's sole job it is to look at game recaps and tell if someone is in fact breaking the rules? But let's get to the numbers that really matter. If 10% of games get flagged, and there is a 4-6% error rate within those games, that means that over all .4-.6% of people who are playing the game are getting falsely noted for punishment. If we assume the system doesn't throw out bans for single games, except when the person does something major, that means those .4-.6% of people have to get multiple "bad games" for the system to falsely punish them. That's a really REALLY low number of people getting the short end of the stick.
CakeMix (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Prozzak,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=00160000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T23:08:27.949+0000) > > The guy is a diamond level player. I have been a diamond level player for like 4-5 years now. I know from experience that 0/19 does not "just happen" unless you 100% give up and stop trying and start running into fights with no intention of caring if you live or not. And?... That makes it all ok to get a 14 day restriction? 1 game out of 2000+? Also that game he was getting heavily targeted by a graves+riven. Do you intend to suggest that anyone else with a score that bad should be equally punished? Cause that suggests that new players playing agaisnt smurfs should be banned. Someone needs a serious rethink
> [{quoted}](name=CakeMix,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=001600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T23:36:32.598+0000) > > And?... > That makes it all ok to get a 14 day restriction? > 1 game out of 2000+? > > Also that game he was getting heavily targeted by a graves+riven. > Do you intend to suggest that anyone else with a score that bad should be equally punished? > Cause that suggests that new players playing agaisnt smurfs should be banned. > > Someone needs a serious rethink Let me word the 1 game out of 2000+ differently. Imagine this same issue, but it was revealed that Riot did nothing AND then you hear for a bunch of people who had similar "bad games" who DID get punished. All of a sudden it starts looking like Riot is playing favorites. OR this shit happens and it becomes known that Riot won't do anything. More people start to follow suit, now one in every 10 games has someone pulling this crap. Can't punish them because they actually bothered to move and us an ability here and there, so clearly it's not "intentional feeding".
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=001300000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T20:21:18.916+0000) > > I'd rather not argue with people over exact wording, versus the implied meaning of that wording. > > Let's use a very simple example here: I'm playing Sona, i am 2 levels and an item behind everyone on the enemy team (except their support). I keep going in and blowing all my cooldowns to take down one of their champions (not the support), who is at full or near full health. Because i am behind on levels and items, and because Sona doesn't do 80% full health damage burst, i keep dying. I am "trying" to win and help my team, but am in fact just feeding the enemy and making it harder and harder for my team to come back. At some point it stops mattering that i'm "trying", i know i can't get the kill. At that point i am for all intents and purposes intentionally feeding. It doesn't matter that i'm taking actions, i know the results on my actions, my champion dies needlessly, and i am choosing to keep doing them. If people report me, i deserve to be punished because I WAS INTENTIONALLY FEEDING. > > I'd also like to point out that Hashinshin isn't the real point of this issue (at least to me) it's the idea that when you let well know people take these kinds of actions, you are saying to the player base at large "you can do this, it's fine. Just look at XXX they did it and no one said shit". Do you really want to deal with this kind of issue in your games? The problem with this logic is that it assumes someone *always* knows what they’re capable of. You’re essentially demanding someone plays perfect or at least incredibly well, as if they aren’t totally tilted. Breaking the psyche of an enemy is part of competitive gaming (competition in general really) and this means by beating someone, you begin to force them into mistake after mistake to where they break. What you are describing is someone playing poorly, **not intentional feeding.** More importantly, in this scenario, there is no way you can definitively prove that someone was covertly feeding intentionally or that they “knew” they would die. I am not comfortable with blurring the lines of bad play and intentional feeding because intentional feeding is only for a very obvious form of dying in which someone is literally trying to die and ruin the game for 9 other players. If it’s not cut and dry, it’s not intentional feeding. I spoke with someone at great length yesterday. If someone is covertly trying to feed (what people refer to is “soft inting,” which is a stupid term), then I agree that there should be something to flag their play and force riot to actually review replays to determine if that’s what’s happening but it should never be an automated system. You’re talking about a system that realistically couldn’t distinguish the difference between bad play and “soft inting,” and as I stated above - I’d never be okay with that kind of system.
> [{quoted}](name=HateDaddy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=0013000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T22:53:57.180+0000) > > The problem with this logic is that it assumes someone *always* knows what they’re capable of. You’re essentially demanding someone plays perfect or at least incredibly well, as if they aren’t totally tilted. Breaking the psyche of an enemy is part of competitive gaming (competition in general really) and this means by beating someone, you begin to force them into mistake after mistake to where they break. What you are describing is someone playing poorly, **not intentional feeding.** More importantly, in this scenario, there is no way you can definitively prove that someone was covertly feeding intentionally or that they “knew” they would die. I am not comfortable with blurring the lines of bad play and intentional feeding because intentional feeding is only for a very obvious form of dying in which someone is literally trying to die and ruin the game for 9 other players. If it’s not cut and dry, it’s not intentional feeding. > > I spoke with someone at great length yesterday. If someone is covertly trying to feed (what people refer to is “soft inting,” which is a stupid term), then I agree that there should be something to flag their play and force riot to actually review replays to determine if that’s what’s happening but it should never be an automated system. You’re talking about a system that realistically couldn’t distinguish the difference between bad play and “soft inting,” and as I stated above - I’d never be okay with that kind of system. Your right it's not possible to read someone else's mind. That said you can imply a lot of things based on outside information. In this case the "skill level" of the player in question (given that he is in diamond) and how long they have played. I don't believe for a second that someone who is that high or been playing that long can't notice a pattern in their mistakes after a few death. You admit that you think "soft inting" should be punishable. But then how do you tell when someone is doing that? I'm all for a system that punishes people. I'm personally fine with the idea that you punish 100 people who are abusing the rules, even if it means that say 4-6 people who just had a bad game get caught in the cross fire. It's unrealistic to expect Riot to go over EVERY game that someone got reported in. If the system starts generating to many false positives you simply take it offline for a bit and see what is causing that issue. Then you address it and put the system back up. In theory you eventually weed out the people causing the real problem, then you don't need the system in place (or at least set the way it is) to stop people from ruining the game for others.
PB4UAME (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=0013000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T16:33:10.973+0000) > > I feel like that's too vague. it leaves a lot of room for people who are "trying" but keep doing things that they know will end poorly. That's literally ***fucking EXACTLY*** what the term means, and is its literal definition. "Inting" again ***literally and only*** means ***INTENTIONALLY*** feeding. The only thing to it is that it is only, and always ***INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO DIE, TO FEED THE OTHER TEAM.*** If you do not literally ***int***end and want, and *actively try* to get yourself *killed,* *IT IS NOT* ***INTING***
> [{quoted}](name=PB4UAME,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=00130000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T19:19:24.489+0000) > > That's literally ***fucking EXACTLY*** what the term means, and is its literal definition. "Inting" again ***literally and only*** means ***INTENTIONALLY*** feeding. > > The only thing to it is that it is only, and always ***INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO DIE, TO FEED THE OTHER TEAM.*** > > If you do not literally ***int***end and want, and *actively try* to get yourself *killed,* *IT IS NOT* ***INTING*** I'd rather not argue with people over exact wording, versus the implied meaning of that wording. Let's use a very simple example here: I'm playing Sona, i am 2 levels and an item behind everyone on the enemy team (except their support). I keep going in and blowing all my cooldowns to take down one of their champions (not the support), who is at full or near full health. Because i am behind on levels and items, and because Sona doesn't do 80% full health damage burst, i keep dying. I am "trying" to win and help my team, but am in fact just feeding the enemy and making it harder and harder for my team to come back. At some point it stops mattering that i'm "trying", i know i can't get the kill. At that point i am for all intents and purposes intentionally feeding. It doesn't matter that i'm taking actions, i know the results on my actions, my champion dies needlessly, and i am choosing to keep doing them. If people report me, i deserve to be punished because I WAS INTENTIONALLY FEEDING. I'd also like to point out that Hashinshin isn't the real point of this issue (at least to me) it's the idea that when you let well know people take these kinds of actions, you are saying to the player base at large "you can do this, it's fine. Just look at XXX they did it and no one said shit". Do you really want to deal with this kind of issue in your games?
Krytoric (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2018-10-26T06:28:06.027+0000) > > ask this to OP and i'll ask it to you. what does "intentional feeding" mean to you? Can it be done without "running it down mid"? Can it be done while "trying" not to die? > > Is the character who is 3 levels and an item and a half behind "intentionally feeding" their opponent despite blowing all their cooldowns trying to win a fight? its intentional feeding if its intentional lol
> [{quoted}](name=Krytoric,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=001300000000,timestamp=2018-10-26T08:07:29.934+0000) > > its intentional feeding if its intentional lol I feel like that's too vague. it leaves a lot of room for people who are "trying" but keep doing things that they know will end poorly.
Krytoric (NA)
: I agree, i dont think hashinshin is right ever but this is doing him pretty dirty. A 2 week ban for "intentional feeding" even tho if you watch he never actually inted. He's a dumbass for picking viktor top for the first time in ranked, but also after a certain point theres nothing he could really do. I think it was pretty harsh for him.
> [{quoted}](name=Krytoric,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=REFFHcb5,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2018-10-26T05:19:37.488+0000) > > I agree, i dont think hashinshin is right ever but this is doing him pretty dirty. A 2 week ban for "intentional feeding" even tho if you watch he never actually inted. He's a dumbass for picking viktor top for the first time in ranked, but also after a certain point theres nothing he could really do. I think it was pretty harsh for him. ask this to OP and i'll ask it to you. what does "intentional feeding" mean to you? Can it be done without "running it down mid"? Can it be done while "trying" not to die? Is the character who is 3 levels and an item and a half behind "intentionally feeding" their opponent despite blowing all their cooldowns trying to win a fight?
: Hashinshin was a victim of the misconception of intentional feeding due to how loosely it’s used
so honest questions. What do YOU call someone who goes 0/19/4? How do you judge someone who does that but isn't "running it down mid"? Do you think such a thing should be punished? A lot of people have admitted they have had "bad games" and even then they tend to do better then 0 and 19. Does the fact that this person is in a high ELO bracket matter? The concept that feeding can ONLY be done by "running it down mid" is insane. I mean for god's sake i'm a freaking silver scrub who generally plays one of if not THE most squishy champ in the game, and even i manage to avoid that kind of garbage on a bad day. I have had games where i honestly get fed up with the team and make overly risky choices while way behind I STILL MANAGE TO NO DIE THAT MUCH. you can't give someone a pass just because they did the bare minimum, which to be honest from what i've seen about this wasn't even done.
Rioter Comments
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=44OlZEYP,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-16T17:14:36.607+0000) > > A 30% slow for 2 seconds is not enough to counter a mobility skill. A 30% slow does not stop the enemy from simply casting on you or auto attacking. The silence on her E is great until the enemy walks out of it and you have to hope that 1-2 seconds was enough for you to haul ass away. The root requires her E to end, meaning it's not reliable as CC. > > Powercord E is not crowd control. In the same way that {{champion:267}} 's E is not a crowd control ability. Low impact slow that requires you to auto attack the enemy is not a viable form of CC. Her ultimate has 2 big issues, first it's her freaking ultimate meaning you don't have access to it during most of the laning phase. Second it's a very long cooldown for a rather low range, low length stun. Soraka and Sona are MEANT to be champs where positioning and map awareness are big components as you have few peel tools.
> [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=44OlZEYP,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-16T17:19:28.021+0000) > > Soraka and Sona are MEANT to be champs where positioning and map awareness are big components as you have few peel tools. With how the game has changed since their creation, i feel like they have to many built in weaknesses. Honestly it doesn't even have to be in the form of gap closers or hard CC. Simple changes like making it so Sona's E doesn't stop working if you are damaged, this means she has at least some ability to escape from an enemy who has a higher base movement speed but failed to land their slow/CC/engage tool. Higher base health pool and/or health regen, in one of my last games during lane phase a support {{champion:17}} was chunking me for a good 20-35% of my health with a single blinding dart. Give them a base movement speed increase so they are near the middle of the pack (if not on the high end), you still have to dodge the engage tool but at least they enemy can't outpace you till their mobility skill is back up. The idea isn't to make them impossible to kill, it's just that it would be lovely if getting caught didn't equal death during lane phase & it would be nice if you outplaying your opponent give you an actual window to escape, rather then just prolong your death.
Dragons (NA)
: Sona and Soraka don't win fights by damage normally, they win by supporting someone else's damage. Also I've played against sona's and sorakas who have plenty of damage level 1.
> [{quoted}](name=Dragons,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=44OlZEYP,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-10-16T17:33:23.865+0000) > > Sona and Soraka don't win fights by damage normally, they win by supporting someone else's damage. > > Also I've played against sona's and sorakas who have plenty of damage level 1. But how was their damage output around level 2-6? People often point out that they do a lot of damage level 1, but forget to note that their damage output jumps off a cliff after that. I don't want those two to be some kind of damage / healing monster. I just wish they had more tools to work with in order to not be so easy to jump and kill.
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=44OlZEYP,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2018-10-16T16:54:55.561+0000) > > Sudo crowd control at best. Q and E don't stun the enemy meaning they can still easily kill you after getting hit. > Yeah E would be great, if it didn't turn off the nanosecond you took ANY damage. also nothing says "crowd control" like a 2 min cooldown on your stun (which also has a short start up time to come out + a travel speed meaning it can be reacted to) > I haven't seen a support Kayle in ages. maybe they still exist but i personally haven't seen her. > > I specifically pointed to Sona and Soraka. The 2 enchanters who do not have crowd control or dashes. Soraka has crowd control. Slow on q, silence and root on e. Sona also has crowd control, but it's generally a waste to use powerchord E, and R has a fairly length cd...
> [{quoted}](name=Eleshakai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=44OlZEYP,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2018-10-16T16:59:42.152+0000) > > Soraka has crowd control. Slow on q, silence and root on e. > > Sona also has crowd control, but it's generally a waste to use powerchord E, and R has a fairly length cd... A 30% slow for 2 seconds is not enough to counter a mobility skill. A 30% slow does not stop the enemy from simply casting on you or auto attacking. The silence on her E is great until the enemy walks out of it and you have to hope that 1-2 seconds was enough for you to haul ass away. The root requires her E to end, meaning it's not reliable as CC. Powercord E is not crowd control. In the same way that {{champion:267}} 's E is not a crowd control ability. Low impact slow that requires you to auto attack the enemy is not a viable form of CC. Her ultimate has 2 big issues, first it's her freaking ultimate meaning you don't have access to it during most of the laning phase. Second it's a very long cooldown for a rather low range, low length stun.
Antenora (EUW)
: Most ADC's feel like a walking target. Welcome to our world.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=44OlZEYP,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-10-16T13:48:18.688+0000) > > Most ADC's feel like a walking target. > > Welcome to our world. You have damage output. Sona and Soraka do not in many cases you have a disengage. Sona and Soraka do not. You have a good gold income. Supports do not. It's possible for you to get a kill on a weakened enemy. Sona and Soraka would die pointlessly trying to secure that kill.
: {{champion:16}} - movement on passive. crowd control on q and e... {{champion:37}} - movement on e. crowd control on r... {{champion:267}} - movement on passive. movement on e. crowd control on q and r {{champion:10}} - movement on w. cc on q {{champion:117}} - movement zippy. cc adorabis and hugify {{champion:497}} - movement w e r. cc e r. umm... wtf are you talking about?
> [{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=44OlZEYP,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-10-16T08:23:18.907+0000) > > {{champion:16}} - movement on passive. crowd control on q and e... Sudo crowd control at best. Q and E don't stun the enemy meaning they can still easily kill you after getting hit. > {{champion:37}} - movement on e. crowd control on r... Yeah E would be great, if it didn't turn off the nanosecond you took ANY damage. also nothing says "crowd control" like a 2 min cooldown on your stun (which also has a short start up time to come out + a travel speed meaning it can be reacted to) > {{champion:267}} - movement on passive. movement on e. crowd control on q and r > {{champion:10}} - movement on w. cc on q I haven't seen a support Kayle in ages. maybe they still exist but i personally haven't seen her. > {{champion:117}} - movement zippy. cc adorabis and hugify > {{champion:497}} - movement w e r. cc e r. > > umm... wtf are you talking about? I specifically pointed to Sona and Soraka. The 2 enchanters who do not have crowd control or dashes.
Hotarµ (NA)
: Enchanters are on the weaker side right now. Keep that in mind. > playing against an engage champion, good thing their engage range is roughly equal to my offensive range. Well, that's kind of the point. If your range is larger than the distance they can engage from, you could just consistently win every trade without fail. >Playing against say {{champion:555}} ? Great i love the champion who has engage tools + mobility + stealth + hard CC + survival tools, while i have none of these things and am made of glass. And you know what {{champion:16}}, {{champion:37}}, {{champion:267}}, and {{champion:40}} have? Amazing disengage tools, amazing peeling tools, the ability to shut down Pyke's chain ult with a well-timed heal, the ability to lock down entire teams / Pyke if he overextends, lane sustain, decent poke, and great support tools in general, such as shields and slows. Pyke cannot shield his allies. Pyke cannot heal his allies. He's not the best at peeling. His ult gets shut down insanely quickly if you play smart. I know it's very easy to hate on Pyke, but he's not a god-tier do-all support. Enchanters will eventually get buffs or reworks, be patient.
> [{quoted}](name=Hotarµ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=44OlZEYP,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-16T08:22:50.314+0000) > > Enchanters are on the weaker side right now. Keep that in mind. > > Well, that's kind of the point. If your range is larger than the distance they can engage from, you could just consistently win every trade without fail. > > And you know what {{champion:16}}, {{champion:37}}, {{champion:267}}, and {{champion:40}} have? Amazing disengage tools, amazing peeling tools, the ability to shut down Pyke's chain ult with a well-timed heal, the ability to lock down entire teams / Pyke if he overextends, lane sustain, decent poke, and great support tools in general, such as shields and slows. > > Pyke cannot shield his allies. Pyke cannot heal his allies. He's not the best at peeling. His ult gets shut down insanely quickly if you play smart. I know it's very easy to hate on Pyke, but he's not a god-tier do-all support. > > Enchanters will eventually get buffs or reworks, be patient. Let's be honest here, {{champion:267}} and {{champion:40}} have good disengage tools. Sona and Soraka do not. This makes laning phase very annoying when Pkye can simply stealth up, start the stun move then dash forward locking you out of your escape path. If he misses that there is a good chance he can use his pull to catch you, thus giving him yet another tool to secure the kill for his teammate.
Rioter Comments
: It's the same way that a shit ton of game elements are coded as minions. If Sona wastes her passive on all these add on targets, like Malz voidlings, Dinger turrets, Zyra plants, Illaoi tentacles, and Jhin/Nid traps, you can assume they're just coded similarly enough that that's what happens. They aren't coded like *wards* because Sona can hit those without losing coming out of combat or losing her empowered AA. It's just how the game's set up under the hood. Could they try to change it? Probs, but they shouldn't, anyway. These things are combative elements of these champions. You shouldn't be able to disarm a Dinger turret while being considered out of combat, or while being able to Powerchord it to death without using it. Same for voidlings, and same for other types of added on enemies. Besides, Sona is one of **the highest win rate supports in the game rn.** Why do you do nothing but complain for buffs? If you're gonna hit a ranked goal, do it before they nerf her, because it's gonna happen after Worlds most likely. She doesn't need buffs. She's probably getting nerfed.
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E9uN4w5G,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-09-08T17:14:55.226+0000) > > It's the same way that a shit ton of game elements are coded as minions. > > If Sona wastes her passive on all these add on targets, like Malz voidlings, Dinger turrets, Zyra plants, Illaoi tentacles, and Jhin/Nid traps, you can assume they're just coded similarly enough that that's what happens. They aren't coded like *wards* because Sona can hit those without losing coming out of combat or losing her empowered AA. It's just how the game's set up under the hood. Could they try to change it? Probs, but they shouldn't, anyway. These things are combative elements of these champions. You shouldn't be able to disarm a Dinger turret while being considered out of combat, or while being able to Powerchord it to death without using it. Same for voidlings, and same for other types of added on enemies. > > Besides, Sona is one of **the highest win rate supports in the game rn.** Why do you do nothing but complain for buffs? If you're gonna hit a ranked goal, do it before they nerf her, because it's gonna happen after Worlds most likely. She doesn't need buffs. She's probably getting nerfed. It's not really a buff to Sona, unless this issue is unique to sona in which case it is... but it's a "buff" that is really more of a bug fix. The original post is a little off since i couldn't honestly remember at that moment how Dinger's turrets or Yorick's ghosts had their hp set up. You should totally use up your empowered attack on a target that the bonus damage matters (turrets, voidlings, ghosts, etc...) , you should NOT use up an empowered attack against a target that takes set damage amounts (wards, {{champion:143}} plants, {{champion:420}} tentacles, etc...) even if they are considered "combative elements of the champion". In all honesty i'm not even 100% that you use up an empowered attack against {{champion:420}} tentacles, much less inactive tentacles. And i don't have anyone who is willing to burn an hour or three testing EVERY champion (and item?) with an empowered attack against those two champions.
: Quality of life change that won't happen. I don't think she should keep her empowered AA when hitting a Dinger turret (those don't have set health like other traps), and because those and other traps are coded similar, they won't be able to make that change for, say, a Nidalee trap or a Jhin trap, where she *should* be able to keep her empowered AA.
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E9uN4w5G,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-07T21:51:50.169+0000) > > Quality of life change that won't happen. > > I don't think she should keep her empowered AA when hitting a Dinger turret (those don't have set health like other traps), and because those and other traps are coded similar, they won't be able to make that change for, say, a Nidalee trap or a Jhin trap, where she *should* be able to keep her empowered AA. yeah looked into it. the only champions the change effects are {{champion:143}} and {{champion:420}} . Since those are the only two champions that currently create "adds" with set damage taking values. Not really sure what you are talking about with regards to traps and how they are coded similar to {{champion:74}} 's turrets
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only zhule

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