: > [{quoted}](name=penguin,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=lcyByxNW,comment-id=00290001,timestamp=2018-08-22T17:06:59.205+0000) > > I have played AP Ezreal with the VGU and think it is similarly powerful to AP Ezreal on live. Don't want to go into too much detail before Ezreal stuff is actually revealed, but I personally believe AP Ezreal players will find AP Ezreal quite satisfying still. :) I have a couple questions if you're allowed to share: Anything you can share on your build? Does he still play as a hybrid between mobile AP Assassin and long range artillery mage? Are his weaknesses still present? (Low waveclear speed and non-existent utility, as well as issues dealing with tanks) Is he still a hyperscaling beast? Thanks for killing my fears about the rework! :)
I think answering any of these is too close to too-much-information unfortunately -- you'll just have to wait until he's launched!
: Also can you share yourself thoughts on AP Ezreal and its viability post VGU
I have played AP Ezreal with the VGU and think it is similarly powerful to AP Ezreal on live. Don't want to go into too much detail before Ezreal stuff is actually revealed, but I personally believe AP Ezreal players will find AP Ezreal quite satisfying still. :)
TomiMan7 (EUNE)
: Dont you think is more his kit that is not really sutable for mid that much as for support?(lack of meaningfull waceclear high cds/manacosts etc) https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/ePEVFycK-brand-passive-ulti-and-e-bug-passive-vs-untargetable-spells Here is an article I've made about some of Brands bugs/annoying things, a long time ago, with a ton of video from youtube and some that ive made in practice tool. _**Disclaimer**_: the passive vs untargetable spells turns out not to be a bug, its just lazy coding since the circle is coded as AOE even for the one who has it on them. Its really should be single target for the primary victim and AOE for the rest.
Yes, I'd agree that it's more his kit currently. I believe we'd have to change something to get him to have mid as a primary role.
Enjutsu (EUNE)
: What do you think about Nami? I've seen her being in top win rates for multiple patches now and i feel like a nerf will eventually come her way. I understand that Nami has a rather "fair" kit so it's hard for people to notice when she's strong, winrate usually being the only indication.
Current meta is pretty favored towards Nami. She's pretty strong in the laning phase and a lot of games feel decided by lanes on this patch. I do feel that she gives too much movespeed for little effort, but don't feel strongly enough to push for changes or nerfs since the character generally feels pretty fair outside of that.
TomiMan7 (EUNE)
: What is your guys' opinion on Brand? Low vs high elo, sup vs mid :) Edit:any news on his R bug being fixed?
I wish he was better mid. He's pretty clearly a support in the current state of the game. No idea about what R bug you're referring to.
: Lads this snowball stuff has to end soon, faster games should be a reward for playing well and great execution. Towers, Baron damage reduction and the damage creep over the years are all contributing factors. With these fast games it eliminates a whole bunch of team comps and champions (scaling). With the heavy emphasis on diversity in lanes and play-styles this kinda contradicts the meta strategies. Is it something you are looking at and are the things i've stated aspects of consideration?
There's another post up in the Dev corner by Phroxon that covers this topic -- it is being worked on. Here's the link so you can go straight from here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/yUOepEEG-early-snowball-813
Ducasi (NA)
: Any news on {{champion:127}} ?? You mentioned upcoming changes and never followed up
We've had decent results testing the changes that have been in currently, but we're still exploring different directions on one part of the kit.
: Hey guys. I know you aren't the balance team, but I'm curious how you all feel about Spellbinder. Not merely from a balance perspective because it feels like it's probably statistically pretty balanced, but from how satisfying and impactful it feels to buy the item. It feels like Shurelia's really overlaps it a lot and due to the active being just better in most situations (doesn't need to charge, potentially boosts your whole team) the trade-off of raw AP for still very useful HP and CDR just seems to be an easy trade to make most of the time.
Personally feel like the item has been sleeper since we buffed it to 120AP. I know it doesn't feel insanely good to use, but IMO the main reason the item's userbase is narrow is that it doesn't offer health, which means the champions who build it have to be really in control of whether or not they can be engaged on. It's very strong on Evelynn and Vladimir.
: ***
Plan is just to get Taliyah into a more balanced state. Her stats started to converge (as in mid/jungle winrates approached eachother) and we aren't against Taliyah being good in both mid & jungle
Bern (NA)
: I'm incredibly concerned that even if the changes are good powerwise, they'll just feel unsatisfying, because q will be harder to hit overall and feel clunkier without worked ground MS, and the increased movespeed on worked ground was one of the most identifying features of how she played in-game. Also very afraid her teamfighting was gutted (worse kiting and no AoE damage on q should mean a sad Taliyah). Even if the direction ends up being a net buff, that doesn't mean it's an enjoyable buff that preserves the fun aspects of the champion in her most common interactions. It also seems like empowering Taliyah in the way this changelist does -- particularly her passive giving a flat 40% MS buff -- is asking for Taliyah to play in ways unfun for other lanes (e.g., roam early/gank L3 playstyles similar to those Riot just changed the jungle to prevent). Sure, she can already do that -- but she's not priced into that being her sole point of power, and it looks like that's where a lot of her power is getting budgeted on PBE. N.B.: To be clear, I'm aware her base MS was improved. I don't think it compensates nearly well enough for the loss of worked ground when it comes to q.
If you have concerns about feeling unsatisfying, make sure to contact AzuBK about it. He's a pretty reasonable guy who will certainly take your concerns into mind and potentially explain his mindset as well. > It also seems like empowering Taliyah in the way this changelist does -- particularly her passive giving a flat 40% MS buff -- is asking for Taliyah to play in ways unfun for other lanes (e.g., roam early/gank L3 playstyles similar to those Riot just changed the jungle to prevent). This isn't as much of a concern for me personally. Taliyah is a mid laner, which means that her being off the map means her laner should be pushing, and her missing should be a sign for other lanes to play passively. That's just how the role works -- Aurelion Sol/TF do similar things at earlier points (both can have decent level 2 roams) > N.B.: To be clear, I'm aware her base MS was improved. I don't think it compensates nearly well enough for the loss of worked ground when it comes to q. 340 base movespeed has felt immensely powerful to me in playtests on her -- have you played the list on PBE? Don't personally agree that her teamfighting is significantly worse.
: How do the Taliyah changes feel?
They're a pretty significant buff IMO. While Q being single target can feel kind of hard to get used to, the amount of roam power and early game agency she has in this world is quite high.
: Hi there! AzuBK on the LeBlancMains reddit post said that you guys do the checking stuff regarding bugs and I was wondering if I could get some insight into the bugs situation of LeBlanc.. as in have you found any and/or are there any bugs up for solving that are likely to ship in, say the next patch? I know it's a thorough job so all I am looking for is some pieces of information and a general outlook. Thanks!
We don't actually do too much work with bugs. We're technically under the QA umbrella, but our primary function is related to balance/new content testing, not bugfixing.
: Hey, I’m having fun messing with Pyke! There’s a lot of changes right now: the role of ADC, jungling being slowed down, the importance of crab, and a brand new style of Support in Pyke. Do you feel like the role of Support is going to fundamentally change? To me, this puts a lot of additional pressure on Support players to roam and help on invading/defending invades. Or is this an overreaction and the “adc bodyguard” will forever be the primary function? About Pyke specifically: the itemization in the game seems to really let him down at the moment. All his good items are priced for solo laners, and the hyper-efficient Support items like Locket and Redemption just do not work at all. Do you feel like he’s currently in a position to succeed once he hits solo queue, or does something outside of his kit need to change?
Personally I think Pyke is likely to succeed a lot in solo queue upon release. I think his early day winrates will likely be low, but think that will quickly shoot upwards.
: ***
They are looking like they will ship in 8.11. AzuBK will put them on the PBE soon.
: Hi Riot, Why can't Camouflage replace invisibility? I know this sound a bit weird but it's not fun either when invisibility like (Kha'Zix, Shaco, Vayne etc...) is used as an ''easy'' escape that cannot be visible by control wards or oracle lens. Ever since pink wards were removed from the game i found it really frustrating to play against stealth. I think Camouflage is a great/healthy mechanics for assassination compare to invisibility that cannot be punshied if you misplay.
When Game Systems did the stealth changes, the primary premise was that Camouflage was stronger as the strategic stealth (meaning good for getting around wards or re-positioning around the map, but not as good at escaping or use in-combat) and "invisibility (also sometimes called true stealth)" would be the stealth we made more powerful for more in-combat usage. I would be really surprised if we revisited this personally. Although as a personal aside...I feel you, I absolutely hate playing against characters with true stealth. RIP pink wards.
: I really like Pyke. But I don't really know why some Fighters lose AD and get AS instead. Could you maybe explain that?
Part of jungle compensation changes since we changed Talisman/Machete I believe. One of our junglers can probably give you a more in-depth answer.
Kanzler (NA)
: Didn't anivia only become strong after the mage item rework patch?
My example was from patch 6.23, which was a decent amount of time ago when we did a small-scope pattern change/rework on Anivia and the followup to her balance after that patch.
: so then say it, say this post was read and got our attention, but have decided to go ahead for X reason. Transparency.
While I'd like to confirm that with every piece of feedback, we get so much that simply confirming "your feedback is heard" on all of it would actually be surprisingly time consuming.
: Why the hell does trapping a champ with Yorick's cage proc turret aggro?
Don't believe this to be a bug. Other replies in this thread are correct to my knowledge.
Kaìju (NA)
: If a main presents their views and feedback in a neutral way with a hope for constructive conversation would you be more open? I play Ashe but so try not to be biased since I know she's a less thought of champion but also walks the line of too strong or too weak because she has utility. Would you want main feedback if we just tried to remove as much bias as possible?
It's not that I'm closed to champion main feedback at all! I often rely on information for mains when I'm communicating with designers about champions I'm not familiar with, for example. They're an incredibly useful resource when learning stuff about LoL, as each character is so deep that it's a fool's errand to pretend as if I know everything. Presenting feedback in a more neutral/constructive manner is always better to convey your point. This applies to us playtesters internally as well.
Theorex (NA)
: I am currently unable to get my replays from the PBE. Next time the iteration of Ryze appears I'll do a check and reply here with a video to show what I mean. But in short, I tried to E E. Two melee minions right next to each other and it wouldn't bounce at times. (Less than a teemo shroom space). While other times, it would ignore the minions next to it and bounce to a minion slightly behind it.
That definitely sounds like a bug that I'd be interested in forwarding to Reportoir. Please keep me in the loop here if it props up again
Landorin (NA)
: I feel it's possible to believe that changes can be a net negative regardless of whether they make the champion weak or strong. For Anivia as an example, I was never an Anivia main, but I did dabble in her from time to time. I will never play her current incarnation because it honestly just isn't as satisfying as the old one. Too slow, too clunky, not reliable enough, and too much focus on control to the detriment of burst. To me it doesn't matter if she's more effective if her gameplay fantasy is changed for the worse. That's of course a non-main's perspective, but I think most mains will feel the same way even if they don't necessarily articulate it.
Sure -- I was speaking mostly from power here. I believe that champion feeling in terms of inputs/outputs is an area where listening to that kind of subjective feedback is very important. I can understand being turned off Anivia from those changes, but at the end of the day my job is to make LoL a better holistic game -- and that's an example off the top of my head where I believe we succeeded despite outcry that we were dumpstering the champion.
wobaji (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=penguin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4vxqEyPe,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2018-05-09T23:51:43.997+0000) > > Champions mains are not always an unbiased source of great feedback. Oftentimes champion mains main a champion because they are in love with the gameplay that currently exists and are resilient to any type of change. I am an Anivia main (and have been since ~2011). When we reworked Anivia so that she could not simply R-> E targets and nuke them while buffing her R and W, anivia mains constantly pmed me and told me that the changes were going to kill the champion, she'd be unplayable garbage, and that me and the designer had no idea how much we were dumpstering the champion. > > Anivia promptly rose to be one of the highest winrate mid laners for a large amount of time before nerfs/meta shifts/etc. Yeah it's not shocking but do you blame them? They want to play the champion and game they signed up for. I still miss my AP Kog from S4. They don't want it to be turned into something else they don't enjoy when it's perfectly functional as is. What if I really liked chess and when I sign up for a chess tournament I find out that it's actually for checkers and mislabeled? This game has no stability and it feels bad to invest serious time into understanding it, maining some champs, finding your favorite items and builds or even your favorite role. Every few months you guys make all of this investment nearly worthless. Even after you do supposed reworks or item changes, they get rehashed another dozen times so there's zero trust that I will still have the game I enjoy, the items I want, etc. in another few months. Any normal game like poker, tennis, Starcraft (much more mechanically intense though) etc. I can have some confidence that my investment isn't flushed down the toilet every few months. I know there are some problems now and there's a lot of work to still do on this game for various champs, roles, items etc. but I hope there's some sort of end in sight for the frequency of high impact changes. Fix what you need. Change what you need but eventually let me actually enjoy a balanced game where I can find my preferences instead of being at the whim of the meta forced by so many nonstop changes. The game wasn't changing this radically all the time even from S4 to S5 when I was really getting into it. Once things are more settled, let the meta develop more organically and step in only if it's clear certain strategies are out of line or severely underperforming. If next year is going to continue to be this disruptive, I don't think I can take it seriously and invest so much time anymore. It fees like I'm punished for caring and studying the game. This applies to [chat too](https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/0JIhtyBM-the-trolls-have-won-and-are-immune-to-criticism-punish-the-victims-instead).
Of course I don't blame them -- I just don't think that listening to champion mains solves all of our problems which is touted here frequently :)
Theorex (NA)
: If you guys need help or thoughts on how Ryze feels, please drop by the Ryze mains discord. I know at the very least one of the other mods and myself have been going through each of the minor changes with Ryze to check them out. With what was on the PBE (until today). There is a massive bug with Ryze E, where the spread doesn't want to work between 20-80% of the time. The range is inconsistent as well. So the other mod and myself could not get a real feel for how Ryze felt due to the bug. We are here to work with you to get our blue boi out of competitive viability and into solo queue viability.
> There is a massive bug with Ryze E, where the spread doesn't want to work between 20-80% of the time. The range is inconsistent as well. This might not have been easily understood, but there are changes to Ryze's E mechanic and how it bounces. It now bounces differently: It can spread for 500 units when cast on champions, siege minions, and large monsters & but has a spread radius of 250 between all other units. Personally I'm not comfortable using discord, I'll have to lean on Repertoire for that.
: No we aint "bugging out" how about YOU GUYS LISENT TO US , poppy mains didnt want this change to go through we warned you guys it was trash but no right that ONE person should get the last say in it ... Kinda pathetic this happens all the tine we warn you the change is dumb you go with it anyway and revert it later rinse and repeat shit way to balance stuff what the fuck is the point of pbe if after everyones complaining you STILL go with the changes
Champions mains are not always an unbiased source of great feedback. Oftentimes champion mains main a champion because they are in love with the gameplay that currently exists and are resilient to any type of change. I am an Anivia main (and have been since ~2011). When we reworked Anivia so that she could not simply R-> E targets and nuke them while buffing her R and W, anivia mains constantly pmed me and told me that the changes were going to kill the champion, she'd be unplayable garbage, and that me and the designer had no idea how much we were dumpstering the champion. Anivia promptly rose to be one of the highest winrate mid laners for a large amount of time before nerfs/meta shifts/etc.
Zullar (NA)
: I appreciate you not leaving Ryze in his current state. He needs help bad :P Would Riot consider a variable number of lockout/bans for pro play? For example in a pro best-of series in the 1st game they get 10 bans but by the 5th game they get 50 bans (40 previous bans + 10 new). Or lockout champs that were previously played in the best-of series (possibly only for the winning team)? Doing something like this would force champion diversity on the pro’s (which I believe is the end goal of the attempts at pro play champion balance). Then you would be free to balance for us regular players without having to give champions the Ryze/Azir/Kalista treatment due to the pro's :P Thanks for reading.
Pick/Ban formatting would be questions better suited to Esports dudes. On Playtest I don't think I have any sway into changes in that regard, although personally I find that kind of format to be interesting.
Wobly (NA)
: Thoughts on the Ryze and Azir work going on the PBE this patch? Any concerns that the new IE might actually still be too strong? I could be wrong but the math looks like it actually hits harder late game than old IE.
I'm the playtester on Ryze: Currently feel like the direction is promising (think weak early but strong lategame is reasonable) but think that the early game is too hard to overcome currently. Will sync up with Reportoir today and find out where he's at, but currently I believe him to be quite underpowered. His changes are not slated for 8.10 though, so don't worry!
: Do you have any plans for Xin Zhao? He feels weak
He's one of the highest winrate junglers rn. Don't think we would buff him currently.
: Thank you Penguin!!! Appreciate you replying!!! Sorry for the rant, just love the game and 'us' players get frustrated when we invest so many hours learning a champ and he/she has fundamental weakness. You don't have to reply to below, just wanted to summarize the weaknesses: 1) Squishy, can't be tanky like some midlaners like Yasuo, Ryze, Azir, etc 2) No combo potential for kills like Veiger, Ahri, Lux, etc. Just poke. 3) All 4 abilities skill shots (that doesn't help, esp that Q bouncing over folks even if you aim correctly) 4) No mobility, only hope is that satchel which will move you few feet. Basically you have to stay far away 5) Passive doesn't help against opponents/team fights. I really hope the passive changes so it helps with AP damage 6) No shield to protect me like Ryze, Morg, Lux, Yasuo, Ekko, etc. 7) He can only mid, it's not like I can safely jungle or support. He is only defined to one lane 8) No hard cc. W & E just does a trivial slow/knock. It's not like I can do a hard cc and land my ult right on top (ex. lux, veiger, etc). And I have noticed the competent players easily dodge the ult, they have enough time to get away I can probably think of more but gotta get back to work =) With so many pvp issues, the last thing we care about is turrets going down 1-2 secs faster. I am not helping my team nor I have an impact just farming under turret and waiting for mid/late game for teamfights.
I hope you saw 8.9 patch notes!
: > [{quoted}](name=penguin,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=oYqIA0zf,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2018-04-19T02:30:20.801+0000) > > I responded to another comment in this discussion about Ziggs being pretty sad. I am inclined to disagree that turrets dying quickly is trivial (first tower is an incredibly powerful aspect of LoL currently) but think he could use some work in other areas. Hey Penguin, Thanks for reply. Sorry for long reply. The point is I want to win against the midlaner before getting to the turret, and fighting against the midlaner is his biggest weakness. Ziggs is in sad state (**as you agree**), I feel like I have a disadvantage in lane (unless my opponent is bad). Ziggs gets bullied, can't 1 v 1 any midlaner, he gets one/two shotted all the time (ex. lux stun + ult = I'm dead, vieger stun + ult I'm dead, fizz, zed, etc). But all Ziggs can do is poke and cs, and hope for help (ganks, etc.). So the biggest weakness is trying to win trades with your opponent, and that's the highest priority. Turret going down a little faster is a trivial bonus, plus ziggs already has satchel to help with turrets. 1) Zigg's passive is AD but Ziggs is AP 2) His passive is useless when fighting your opponent in lane or teamfights. His passive should help him in fights because that is his biggest weakness in his game. 3) Ziggs has no combos to kill like fizz, zed, lux, vieger, it's basically spamming q, W and E hardly do damage. And the good midlaners easily move out of the ult (im not even going to include how some champs can just totally void it ex fizz, vlad, etc). **My recommendations: 1) Change his passive where it can help him against opponents. That is far more important than saving couple of seconds on turrets (plus he already has W for turrents). This is why he is never played, his biggest weakness as a midlaner is the most important part of his job = win trades against your opponent mid laner (get a kill, get fed, roam, get assists, etc). 2) His Q bounces over and all over the place. Q should not bounce over anyone and the radius should be increased. High elo players are too smart to fall for the Q, they will move around so much you will hardly land it, and even if you do it's nothing special. Some smart players stand and take q hits cause they know ziggs can't do anything much else so they continue csing. ** You will never see a Ziggs fed in midlane in high elo on his own (plat and above). He has to get ganks for kills or roam to get kills/assists. While all the other midlaners can get fed on their own by killing the opponent midlaner. You play Ziggs, so you know how fragile he is. He can't 1-2 combo anyone either. He is just a meh. Basically, the formula to play ziggs is, stay far back, cs, run away as fast as you can if things get hairy, and just wait for team fights. He can never take on midlaner 1 v 1 (unless the opponent is bad). I hope you agree with most, and what changes would you like to see?
I agree that Ziggs has incredibly weak PvP currently (especially against competent players). I brought him up with live gameplay dudes as a result of some collective concerns in this thread and they're looking at him. No promises, but hopefully we'll see some changes for the dude!
: Hey, I hope i get this answered and thanks in advance. What is the state of Ziggs? He is never mentioned, even in threads. He is hardly played and win rate hovering around 47-48%. He can't kill most champs even if he lands all his abilities. I am hoping for: 1) Change his passive. His kit is AP, passive is AD, I can careless about his AD. Turrets going down a second or 2 faster is trivial. 2) He sucks 1 v 1 3) Any buffs? Same applies to Lissandra, recent buffs are nothing.
I responded to another comment in this discussion about Ziggs being pretty sad. I am inclined to disagree that turrets dying quickly is trivial (first tower is an incredibly powerful aspect of LoL currently) but think he could use some work in other areas.
: There is something that kinda bothers me There is one champion that has been seeing litle to none play for 4 seaons now, has a really low playrate in high elo, currently has trash winrate, and the few times he was picked, its picked in a role he was not designed for, and serves for supportive purposes he wasn't supposed to fulfill. Its been like this for many years now, and i'd like some context of why this champ hasn't been buffed, considering its considered by many ust a trollpick in any comp in any situation. im talking about {{champion:115}} Ziggs. > Ziggs has a win rate 46.88% for Diamond+ players whilst the very best Ziggs's are earning a win rate of 49.46% with the average rank of these top players being in Diamond IV. - Lolalitycs > Win Rate 49.33%. Play Rate 1.16%. - Champion.gg > 47.85% winrate, 35th /47 1.35% pickrate. -Op.gg So, these stats looks fine, but Ziggs has been hovering on a 53% winrate for a long time, while striking a close to 0% pickrate on higher elo (Diamond+) And from personal experience, i can safely say that his agency is close to unexisting due to some match ups beeing straight up impossible. I'd liek to know Riot's opinion on the champion, since he hasn't been touched ever since the +0.2 AP ratio on his ult, and even after that, his pickrate didn't change one bit, doy ou think he is fine the way he is right now? You think its ok for the champion to only be picked ADC in competitive, and never midlane?
I like to play Ziggs, and personally do feel that he's a bit sad right now. I don't agree that it's a bad thing that he's shown up bot lane in the past before however. I wish the champion in general felt more reliable against good players. I'll bring him up with some live gameplay dudes and see what they think.
: Hey, I just have a quick question about annie. When her stun is up and she presses Q and you activate an ability like kayn's R zed R fizz E ect. (go untargetable) why it not consume her passive and put the spell on cooldown? is This intentional? It feels like it's just been bugged for awhile but nobodys complained about it
I believe this to be by design, the way Annie's tooltip is written is as follows: PYROMANIA: When Annie **succeeds** in her next damaging ability, she consumes all Pyromania stacks and Stun icon stuns enemies hit for 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 seconds.
: How'd Ahri feel during testing?
Ahri felt like a rollercoaster, there were so many different changes we tested. I was pretty happy with the end result (a little sad that the passive couldn't **feel** more powerful, personally didn't get much satisfaction out of it. I understand we needed to be careful given power budgeting, though) because I always liked playing Ahri in the olden days of ~S3 as I enjoyed scrapping with my lane opponent and going for early snowball game finishes. My least favorite iteration was the 3-4-5 charges on ultimate scaling with ultimate rank, as I felt like the direction conflicted with how Ahri wants to close out games. Overall felt like the direction changes meant that good Ahri players could carry in the ways that I felt Ahri players would want to carry (solo kills/assassinations). Dashing in and blowing up 1 dude while outplaying skillshot retaliation is the thing I always liked a lot about Ahri, so personally I'm happy we moved backwards towards the higher-damage-output Ahri.
: Ya, i'd like to file a complaint... There's no new Taliyah skins??? like?? >-> <-<
The samsung skin that is WIP from SSG winning worlds is really nice.
: Instant waveclear via Statikk Shiv is ok for you then?
Shiv had its bonus damage to minions removed in patch 8.6. https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-86-notes#patch-Statikk-Shiv
: Alright, I'll just kick start this whole thing: What are y'all's opinions of the mana changes? How much do they effect mages vs the way they currently play? And do you believe those changes to be for the better?
I was surprised by the amount of negative discussion around the mana changes personally, as the manaflow band changes we shipped recently had a much more noticeable effect on how the laning phase played out IMO. I haven't experienced any feelings that the class feels dramatically weaker in our playtests. I believe that players learning to opt OUT of interaction with their opponents has made the game a lot less fun, and every time I see an Inspiration/Resolve TF with Minion Dematerializer, I get a little sad. I do think there will be followup balance necessary, however, as opting out of interaction is how you survive the laning phase against a lot of assassins (Fizz/Zed/LeBlanc) and believe that trying to get towards a state where it is a fallback strategy as opposed to the optimized strategy in most matchups is desirable for making mid lane more fun over the long term.
: I'm happy to see some Lissandra buffs. Do you think this is enough? {{champion:127}} I know Meddler has been working on a new passive for her. What happened to that? :) {{sticker:slayer-jinx-catface}}
Meddler was out for a while. He's back now. Testing for Lissandra stuff should likely resume soon :)
: <Opened minesweeper> <Clicked first box> <Bomb, game over> Fuck this game.
> [{quoted}](name=oOBestEveNAOo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=wHMoEpEX,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-16T19:22:08.267+0000) > > &lt;Opened minesweeper&gt; > > &lt;Clicked first box&gt; > > &lt;Bomb, game over&gt; > > Fuck this game. goddamn silver microsoft balance team has no idea what they're doing
FridgeD (EUW)
: Vi "buffs", are you kidding me?
these are experimental changes designed to test if she can function in top lane that are separate from regular gameplay changes (read: standard buffs/nerfs to numbers)
Nefas (NA)
: A lot of mostly mid range mages. Viktor, Malzahar, Swain. I just generally feel like I’m on my back foot the entire time. I’m going to get shoved in because she can clear the wave much faster with far lower cd’s and mana costs all while having better damage. I can’t go in on her because I get a sleep to the face since the hit box is big and travels fast. Even if I do, she always has enough defensive tools to mitigate most of the damage or burst me so far down that I’m the one who has to back. It’s really easier for her to force me into a very early bad back as well, which especially hurts on Viktor.
Malzahar is quite good against her from my experience -- your voidlings eat a lot of her damage throughout teamfights. I'd say try running Spellbook on Malzahar and looking to scale. Your 1v1 is inevitably worse, but your contribution as the game progresses should be significantly higher assuming you play the mid/late game well.
Nefas (NA)
: That’s still how Zoe lanes feel to me. I don’t feel like I have any agency in the lane at all.
What champions do you play? I don't think Zoe's lane is too hard to play against if you take cleanse and utilize it properly. Could probably give you some tips. She also is generally a snowball character now who clears waves fairly slowly, so just going even in the laning phase generally means you're winning the scaling battle.
: Gotcha. 1. do you think Zoe would be different if you caught that interaction during development? (as in, your team would have made different changes) 2. I watched that livestream about Zoe with you, CertainlyT and Gentleman Gustaf I think? do you have any plan to make more of those videos personally if the opportunity rises? any timeline maybe?
1) We'd probably have nerfed Q damage and balanced around it accordingly, similar to what we did eventually do. 2) I don't have any say in that kind of thing. If you enjoyed that video/stream, make sure to let Gentleman Gustaf know as the comms bros or publishing teams setup most of that stuff I believe.
: > Not trying to make an excuse here -- I was the main playtester on Zoe, and the biggest mistake in retrospect from my end was not fully utilizing the power of QQR as a combo. It allowed her to trivialize a lot of her gameplay so, are there any plans to change that interaction?
We did change a lot of it. It's no longer as unfair as it used to be (she can't QQR at max distance, Q does a lot less damage) and I'm of the opinion that Zoe is pretty fine now.
Tykenn (EUW)
: I find it odd that Zoe's Q-Q-R combo was a mistake in your eyes, when I look back to my first few times playing Zoe, and doing that old Q-Q-R combo, I instantly fell in love with her kit. It was so flowy and it felt good when you landed a **long ** ranged Q. It made you feel like a sniper lining up a shot, considering that from casting to champion hit was about 3-4 seconds of movement prediction. Hey! I'm not sure if you could try this, but it would be neat if you play tested the current Zoe but reverted her Q-Q-R combo. At the time, I felt like it was the rest of her kit that was problematic and not necessarily the Q and R interaction itself.
The problem with QQR is that it undid a lot of the work that we did specifically to make playing against Zoe different than old nidalee --ideally, when she QRQ'd, she would give the enemy some time to react and start to dodge. Part of what made Zoe hard to play in that model is that you would both understand what was happening and both try to dodge/predict her skillshot. It hurt her reliability, essentially. QQR is basically a 1-sided skillcheck where Zoe has to aim/lead it properly. Targets didn't have sufficient time to dodge or react, and that's why we changed it.
Tik115 (NA)
: I appreciate the clarity with things like that, its nice to see the mindset of things in the playtest place (Even If I am one of the harsher/snarky people when it comes to your choices of balancing (Had Maple Nectar get irritated at one of my snarky comments) It is nice to see the mindset to try and clear the fog) With the whole low sample, isn't that what the PBE is for? to aid in a bigger sample size due to the limits of the playtest team? (inb4 'PBE is just a skin showcase' joke)
The PBE isn't a great place for balance reads. There's larger MMR disparity in PBE games compared to playtest internal games, and playtest's internal games already have a bigger skill spread than most live server ranked games (we have people from ~d5 - challenger on our team)
Tik115 (NA)
: it is appreciated that you don't just push updates out willy nilly but the issue I feel is that when mistakes go through they are often collosal which is why people have the "lulz balence team don't know how to balence" comes through I'll just make a few examples Zoe: This entire champion was so overbearing that you guys had to gut her, this has only been the case with Kalista and Aatrox if memory serves but Zoe has been gutted faster then them, good on you for for doing it so quick but...why did it even start there? Ornn: W changed to % Max from % current and the apprent refusal to revert it, This is what made Ornn so broken, the % health change yet you instead took out his unstoppable, surly a revert like you did Rengars Q and Kogs everything would of sufficed? Conqurer (this one more of my opinion then an outright fact since the keystone is still new): The abuse cases, the Darius and Jax, one which will ether result in the keystone getting gutted or the champs which abuse it getting nerfed to the ground (or both) again its a case of why did it start that way? The thing is with this mistakes that I personally want to know is in these cases where is the failure point? is it internal playtests misjudging or it seeming OK because of the naturally small pool of testers? or PBE with lack of feedback or wild inaccuracies in skill?
Zoe isn't really gutted IMO. She's low winrate, but that's to be expected of a streaky character with high highs and incredibly low lows. We knew release tuning for her was going to be incredibly difficult, as she was developed with pretty much all of runes reforged being constantly iterated at the same time. LeBlanc prior to her rework had pretty similar solo queue winrates, and she was certainly a powerful champion. Not trying to make an excuse here -- I was the main playtester on Zoe, and the biggest mistake in retrospect from my end was not fully utilizing the power of QQR as a combo. It allowed her to trivialize a lot of her gameplay, and is probably my biggest testing regret of anything I've ever flubbed in the 2 years I've been here as IMO if we caught that before shipping we would have likely been able to stop a huge amount of player frustration. Ornn: He's not broken on live now, so I don't personally have any problems with the routes we took (but internally I'm in the camp of revert W unstoppability and nerf his W damage) Conqueror: The rune looks to have landed in a pretty-much-fine state. Personally think Rageblade was the big outlier this patch more than Conqueror, and if Darius is OP we'll just nerf Darius. We accepted that as a risk to make top lane a more enjoyable lane for a certain subclass of players who were underserved, and personally I'd make that sacrifice 10 out of 10 times if I lived in some world where I got to make all the decisions :P > The thing is with this mistakes that I personally want to know is in these cases where is the failure point? is it internal playtests misjudging or it seeming OK because of the naturally small pool of testers? or PBE with lack of feedback or wild inaccuracies in skill? Personally think low sample is the biggest culprit. We work on a very limited amount of bandwidth and a small team. I've been working pretty hard to interview and get more playtesters.
: I really like what you've been doing with Rengar, Ahri, Rageblade, etc. on the PBE. I don't know how much that helps you guys, but we like to see your iteration process and we're happy to give feedback on the changes you test.
I can't speak for live gameplay, but it's been very helpful for me thus far as a playtester and I hope we continue to be more transparent about our testing process through interactions with the community. Notable changes to come to Playtest's patch chat are coming up :)
: > [{quoted}](name=Xäyąh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AyQobVLN,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-03-28T13:12:23.863+0000) > > Do you think they have a team of workers sitting in their office not doing anything? Not playtesting or brainstorming ideas to change the game without breaking it? Game Design isn&#x27;t simple, and balance isn&#x27;t black and white. Sure, they aren&#x27;t doing a fantastic job right now. But they&#x27;re communicating with the boards more and being more careful with their steps. I will admit the communication is nice, but it's debatable that they are being careful.
The hard thing about knowing how careful we're being is that when we're being careful, you guys don't see that unless they happen to be changes that are on PBE and are repeatedly pulled or changed. I'm not saying we don't make mistakes -- that is obviously incorrect, but many things that ship on a given patch cycle have actually been iterated on for a long time internally to attempt to avoid mishaps. there are many, many changes that we test internally that don't go very far.
B0OM (NA)
: That’s not QoL, that’s a buff. Currently the cost of her Q on Worked Ground is _refunded_, not _reduced_. That’s by design.
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