SEKAI (OCE)
: While it does feel good with my raging e-boner from looking at my lifetime upvotes, but really, we should encourage people to put out actually insightful and/or helpful comments instead of rallying the crowd to tryhard-farm upvotes. Have you been to reddit or facebook (and other places like that)? While it is true some really sarcastic yet funny jokes over there truly deserve an upvote but the general attitude there is just pretty mindless.
^ This It seems like rewarding upvotes received will just encourage post spamming or hivemind posts where you agree with whatever the popular opinion is to get upvotes.
: "How many times have you played Soraka/ played alongside a Soraka on the PBE and how many times have you won with her involved?" **I used to play her quite a bit before her rework when she could infuse herself and the free silence. I used to win fairly alright if my adc put forth an effort and wasn't bad or having a bad time. But I just played against one and she's broken mid. I haven't gotten to try her MYSELF yet, but I can tell she's OP.** "How do you feel about the kit so far? Is there anything that feels too punishing/rewarding?" **This kit is STUPID op. She can pretty much go mid and it is nearly impossible to dodge her stuff without flashing or using a champion that blocks, sheilds, built-in tp, etc. Her cooldowns are way too small for her Q. Literally it's like playing "dodge a SUPER fast Xerath ult". You can easily dodge his ult if you're smart enough, with this new kit Soraka can just get up close, throw it and then heal with her w for a clean getaway. PLEASE re-think her range and radius on her q. She was broken enough now she's just WORSE.** "Is there anything that needs to be improved in the kit?" **FIX THE Q PLEASE. PLEASE RITO.** "How do you build her Masteries/Rune Page/ Itemization wise?" **Tanky AP, same as old raka.** "Who do you think Soraka synergizes well/poorly with?" **Probably with Varus or anyone long ranged.** "How do you feel about Soraka's laning phase/teamfighting phase? Is she justifiably weak in one to strengthen another?" **Haven't gotten to teamfighting, but her laning phase is ridiculous. I seriously doubt she would even need help from a jungler if she knew what she was doing. ** *I'll answer the second part when I have more experience against other rakas.*
> ** I haven't gotten to try her MYSELF yet, but I can tell she's OP.** . . . I thought the entire point of the thread was feedback from people who have *tried* the new kit? Is your entire post based on a single game playing against a Soraka who wasn't even playing her like she was intended?
: Have some faith. They did not remove Eve when she was a problem. They will not remove our favorite lady.
. . . but they did nerf Eve down to a 35% win rate and left her there for *two years*. I'm afraid your example has shaken my faith in Riot rather than helping.
: Thanks for the comment and sorry for seeming so "hostile" about it But you should see why some of us are frustrated, to have her range reduced (something that is practically bonded to most Sona players minds) but it be undocumented and then for the guy who reworked her say she had 650 range on her Q the whole time, when this is wrong I'd like to add that I believe the Sona rework was a success, this one problem what screws with her laning pretty hard is the only balance problem I see, I don't care if she is technically not a good call to pick her in higher up games, I don't care that she is outclassed by Nami, I just care that she is fun to play, but overextending for her lower range with her has massive risks what are just not worth it and this does not make her fun to play
Personally I'm reading through the opening post and I'm not seeing where they're getting the hostility from--it honestly reads pretty level-headed to me. You found an undocumented change, you've been asking about it and not getting responses, so you asked if a Rioter was ever going to comment on it. Seems reasonable to me.
: > The Sona rework has been successful afaik) I'd like to know what you're basing this on, because every piece of objective data I see points otherwise: - No pro picks - Nearly no challenger picks - only 4% diamond pickrate, with bronze maxing out at 6% - Vast majority of forum feedback is a form of complaint, even some people who like the changes say she could use some more tweaking to feel better. Also winrate should not be the sole method of balance, as it feels you guys are doing.
Even her win rate is only decent in bronze & normals. (PS, is anyone else noticing that a whole bunch of replies to Baconhawk's comment that had like 6 or 7 upvotes just *vanished?*)
: @Morello: What is the long term vision for Lulu?
I think the best suggestion I've heard for cutting Top Lulu down to size and maybe bringing support Lulu back was to change the effect of "Help, Pix!" when cast on an enemy. Turn it from a one-target nuke with no counterplay into something thats clearly stronger when used in coordination with an ally.
: Taric deserves a rework
I feel like Taric needs a rework of some sort, but unfortunately I feel like Riot has handled the last couple of reworks *really poorly*, so Ithe whole topic of "rework" is kinda leaving a bad taste in my mouth right now. . . . but yeah, the fabulous shiny paladin of implied sexuality could use some love.
Ulanopo (NA)
: >Figuring out where we can remove power in ways that don't hurt more than the improvements is going to take time. Is she currently tuned so tightly that any changes have to be effectively zero-sum?
I wish I could upvote this comment twice. They heavily nerfed a character who clearly was not overpowered, yet for some reason even the tiniest of buffs isn't even worth consideration. I don't get it.
: Again, no need for the personal attacks and negativity. We do listen—but that absolutely does not mean we are going to do everything the community asks for. I think we've been doing pretty well so far. (Also, who is this 99% you speak of? The Sona rework has been successful afaik)
Okay, really, two things: 1) There were no personal attacks in the statement you were replying to. 2) "No really guys, we're listening to you!" followed immediately by "What do you mean the Sona rework had negative feedback and wasn't well liked?"
Vesh (NA)
: This used to be the case, but alongside the missing health multiplier (which was the more important of the two) it was too much math to understand what a good heal looked like. It also created a weird incentive where sometimes it was better to sweet spot and sometimes it was better to hit multiple targets. Optimization is a good thing to master, but when the choices are so hard to math out that you need a calculator, something has to change.
Thanks for explaining this. "We've tested this and decided not to go with it for reasons X and Y" is a lot easier to wrap my head around than "Just trust us, our way is better"
: Morello and Vesh, can you please once comment on this issue: I know you don't want Soraka stacking health and I completely agree with that. However did you really intend to actively punish her for building any health? She would be the only champion in the game that is actually made weaker by buying the wrong items. This really troubbles me, especially because one of these wrong items is Sightstone, which should be core on a support. (incase you are wondering what I mean: if she get's any health, she'll need more starcalls to recharge)
> (incase you are wondering what I mean: if she get's any health, she'll need more starcalls to recharge) That's a really good point, and one I hadn't thought of. The HP cost scales up with her max HP, but her sustain doesn't . . .
: As someone who has been playing Sona since her release near 4 years ago, I can safely say that her range has defiantly changed The are now maximum ranges that I cannot reach anymore, such as harassing through tribrush wall, no longer possible And seemingly now there is some kind of nasty glitch what prevents her Q from hitting past 550 range on champions (when nothing is in the way), seems that this one only cropped up in 4.15 as I had been used to the slight range nerf from her rework It's hard to explain, but when you have been playing this champion for so long, things just feel natural, like pressing Q when you know you are in absolute max range to hit a enemy target, since 4.15 I have never felt so foolish because I keep using Q at that range that is practically bonded to my mind and it keeps doing nothing Very frustrating to someone who has played her for so long for her range to seemingly get reduced twice over 2 months without it ever been documented and especially when the Rioters themselves have no idea it's happening but many many Sona players are picking up that Q range has been reduced
Hmm . . . any thoughts how to on test this to confrim? Maybe using other champion abilities as a benchmark so we know exactly how far Sona is from the other champion?
Fearless (NA)
: Been looking into this as well. Her numbers were not changed, so trying to figure out if this is environment, or something else behind the scenes. If I can track anything down, I'll let you all know.
I think I might be able to shed a little light on the subject: - With any new/reworked champion there's a period at the beginning where players haven't figured out how to get the most out of the champion's kit, but also haven't figured out how to counter that champion yet. - In the case of new Sona, there's some internal clashes and unclear optimizations in her kit that make it *really* hard to get the most out of her kit. (I can elaborate if you want) - At the same time, new Sona can be countered extremely hard if you know how. - Thus, as people figure her out, her win rate keeps going down. Hope that helps?
eztarg3t (NA)
: Let's calmly discuss Soraka's kit
I applaud you for trying to take a very thoughtful and balanced approach to this. My biggest concern is that Soraka's new kit is *extremely risky* from a gameplay development standpoint. If they don't absolutely nail this then it will be an atrocity. . . . and, if I may be blunt, Riot has a *really* poor record with Soraka. This will be her 4th or 5th major gameplay change, and some of the previous iterations were 'discarded' (nerfed to the bottom and left there until a rework) almost as soon as they came out. I think the community's reaction has more to do with a lack of trust in Riot regarding Soraka than to anything in the proposed kit. (a 10% of max hp cost on a skill does sound painfully absurd though)
Fearless (NA)
: Hey all, just wanted to hop in here and say that I have read this post and have been thinking about what next steps Sona needs or can support. Initial thoughts are that while Sona is slightly less successful, she's still very much on the winning side, so justification for straight buffs is pretty weak. Usability changes are still something I'm very much interested in attempting, but finding ones that don't increase her power dramatically may take some extra time. I can't commit to anything, but I did want to let everyone know that we've still been talking about Sona, and we do want to make sure she's satisfying, even if she's not in need of straight buffs.
I'm really glad to hear Sona hasn't been abandoned :) I rather suspected you wouldn't be interested in just a straight buff, which is why I tried to include some suggestions for elements of her kit I'd be okay with seeing nerfed in exchange for buffs elsewhere. That said, you do seem to have a much more . . . optimistic . . . read on Sona's power level than most of the community. Unless the statistics Riot is gathering dramatically differ from those publicly available Sona is definitely not "very much on the winning side" at higher level play. She still has a decent win rate in bronze, but in diamond she's been just above 48% this past week. It also appears that many of her stats on LoLking are *still falling*. (Time will tell I guess . . .) Generally the direction that I would like to see changes in would be to make the outcome of Sona's skills more dependent on what *Sona* does and less dependent on what everyone else does.
: I like this idea a lot. And its actually a real QOL thing too.
^ what he said. I really can't see why anyone would object to this change.
: > Naturally not *everything* is bad, and not everyone dislikes it as much as I do. I'm still quite happy to see Sona's ult now has a graphic that actually matches the hitbox. I'm sure that if this topic generates discussion we'll see at least one person weighing in to say they like new Sona. Yes. I like the new sona, however I'm trying to see it from your position as well as my own. I took this portion to the top because viewpoints are important for understanding what we're saying. > - Buff her base move speed. This will make 'tagging' allies easier and generally make her less team-dependent. I do believe common Sona Itemization includes at least one or two extra movement speed items now, especially early on with Nomad's Medallion changes. I feel that she should have the movement speed you're looking for if you're building her "like a true support". > - Return at least some of her early damage. I'm going to agree with you on this one. She's really reliant on her adc in the early game. Make her able to stand her ground at least early on in a solo lane but make her fade back to a similar supportive position later on. Think Karma or Lulu solo lane, with a little less max-range harass. > - I would be willing to give up the passive ability on her ult. It's a great skill without the passive. Right now she just feels like half a character pre-6. It's true her range early on makes her really hard to play early on as a sort of duelist sona, perhaps give her a higher base range on her skills and lower scaling ranges so it all evens out lategame? > - Please, for the love of all that is cute and fuzzy, do NOT create 'tank Sona' I have not heard this said before, feel like elaborating what kind of build you mean?
> I have not heard this said before, feel like elaborating what kind of build you mean? It's not so much a build as I've heard a few people discussing buffing Sona by dramatically boosting her durability. In my mind this completely clashes with Sona's character concept and core playstyle. > I do believe common Sona Itemization includes at least one or two extra movement speed items now, especially early on with Nomad's Medallion changes. I feel that she should have the movement speed you're looking for if you're building her "like a true support". The issue I have with building movespeed (instead of buffing the base ms) is that in order to be able to 'tag' team mates without them moving in so you can buff them Sona needs to move faster than her team mates so she can catch up and buff them. With itemization ms, her team will be gaining movespeed at about the same rate Sona is. Thus, in my opinion, she ends up being very dependent on her team because she can't even buff team mates without the the team mate helping her deliver the buff.
  Rioter Comments
Chess435 (NA)
: Bumping.
I don't think you can bump that way on the new boards
Sunfield (EUNE)
: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2c66rv/sona_rework_comparison_old_vs_new_with_math/ Get educated, stop qq
Umm . . . the person who wrote that clearly did NOT think the numbers favor new Sona. He (she? it? they?) clearly states that the changes are ambiguous numbers-wise. Even your own sources don't agree with you on this point.
: Community! Tell me your skin ideas.
Sona Blitzcrank, or basically any two characters who look nothing alike dressed as one another.
: http://www.lolking.net/champions/sona#statistics By looking here I can't see any of those things you said. I can't see neither the drop you talk about nor the slightly lower winrate. Even then, she is sitting at a really good winrate, actually higher than 90% of the supports.
Her winrate climbed slightly more since I made the post, so it's now up to about the same as it was before. As I said in my post, winrates normally bounce around enough that it's hard to tell anything from just looking at the graph. The large drop I was refering to was on the 28th and 29th. Sona has always had an artificially high winrate. In the past this was because even an absolute bottom-of-the-barrel terrible Sona player was still a big ball of stats for the team--thus even though she went roughly even with skilled players she would win in unskilled players. I'm really not sure what her current winrate means.
Skernan (NA)
: Sona's ult lost no range. The old graphic didn't properly display its range, so the new one got resized to fit.
I think he was talking about the aura range, not ult range . . . it's not entirely clear though.
: I think Sona was deceptively hard to play even before these changes. The kit told you to stay in the back and be safe, but you needed to get in the thick of things for timely Crescendos. Likewise, Power Chords were and are powerful enough that they entice you into enemy auto-attack range. Positioning was extraordinarily important and sometimes deceptive as to the best use case. I do think you're right in that the skill floor has crept up. Also, because her power is more clearly being donated to allies, it's easy to see when you are unsuccessful with her new positioning. The purpose of updates is rarely to give a champion more power, so there is always the risk of disheartening people who have less success while learning new mechanics. If the problem persists beyond a brief learning curve, then we have to evaluate further and solve said problem.
> The purpose of updates is rarely to give a champion more power, so there is always the risk of disheartening people who have less success while learning new mechanics. There is an issue I'd like to point out here: With several of the "old school" supports the community has, in the past, been told that they could not be buffed to the point of being competitive in the LCS because their kits "created toxic gameplay patterns" and thus we would have to wait for reworks before they could be buffed to compete with Thresh, Braum, Leona etc. I believe Morello specifically mentioned Sona (wish I could find the post), but even if he didn't this generated the expectation among many players that buffs would accompany the rework. This generated a lot of hurt feelings when the rework went through as a (debatable) nerf in the face of community objections.
Fisk (NA)
: Could we please please just rework taric
I think Riot has said that Taric is yet another support stuck in the realm of "will never be allowed to be strong until he gets a rework"
: I'd like to know where do you get that her winrate is declining. I don't want to sound rude, but her winrate is sitting at 52% overall, with almost no difference in winrate between diamond and bronze. Her winrate hasn't changed a bit from pre-rework Sona to my understanding. EDIT: I've noticed someone is mass downvoting every post. That's just nonsense.
On LoLking etc her net winrate has been *slightly* lower post rework than pre-rework. Initially she had a pretty massive drop, but then it came most of the way back up. Win rates normally bounce around a fair bit, even without changes, so it's hard to say anything definitive. It looks like overall new Sona might be a little bit weaker, but generally similar to where she was before (usable, but clearly outclassed by some of the more popular supports).
: You cant please everyone though. It needs some more time before you truly know whether it was positive or negative. Its hard to assess a champion fully in just a few days.
I wasn't trying to say they need to please everyone, and I know a day or two isn't enough to judge the changes. I'm honestly still making up my mind about them myself. What I take issue with in the video is they essentially try to pretend that they *have* pleased everyone, which is really quite rude towards the rather large group who were upset over the changes. This will in turn only serve to make them angrier.
Fearless (NA)
: So one day of play (almost two now) in a handful of regions doesn't give us accurate data. There are regions that still haven't even gotten updated to 4.13 yet. Right now, we're looking at the feedback on the forums, community sites, streams, etc. and then trying to see how she feels in the live environment, but all of that is anecdotal. After much more time, something closer to two weeks, we have a very authoritative block that will also have given people time to learn the new mechanics and decision making, find strong builds, and have opponents play against that fully understand what they are up against. It's mostly that adjustment period that we have to wait for before the data becomes useful.
Thanks for responding! In that case why do we see some instances where things start happening much sooner? Skarner rework for example. I'm aware that one day isn't enough data, but my concern is that in the past we've seen unfavorable changes where comments like "it's too early" or "we're watching it" or "we know it's a problem and we're working on it" were used as a stalling tactic and then *never followed through on*. As an example let's take a (very abbreviated) look at the timeline following the support itemization rework last pre-season: - The changes come out. Although the role itself is now in a healthier place, many of the champions who were traditionally played in that role are pushed out in favor of "non-traditional" supports. - In the immediate aftermath the community is told it's too soon to jump to any conclusions. - About two months later a few Reds post on the forums saying that, yeah, those changes were unintentionally harsh on the squishy utility-mage type supports. - Absolute silence on the issue (or any other issue for that matter) for several months. - About five months post-change: Riot re-confirms that the issue exists - About six months in: the balance team starts discussing actual fixes. They say they're going to take a multi-step approach to the problem, and the first step is going to be some itemization changes. - Month seven: the itemization change comes out. This doesn't seem to help the traditional squishy supports at all, but support Morgana is now a thing. - Month eight: Riot begins denying that the problem ever existed. All hopes of seeing it fixed are quashed. I know you weren't personally involved (at least directly) with many of the past instances, but there is a pattern here. It's a pattern the player community does NOT like. . . . that came out a little more negative than intended. There actually ARE several aspects of the rework that I like a lot (ult graphic mismatch *finally fixed*, switching from invisible stats to one-off buffs feels more rewarding etc). Honestly my biggest gripe here is that Riot's typical response to negative feedback is NOT a good one.
: Also, there are links on the bottom of the web site and emails
davin (NA)
: This little question is part of a broader investigation that happens on each release. For each release, a few different questions are seeded via this tool (gameplay, visuals, etc.). Those questions are sent via the Microfeedback Tool (MFT), which is a super simple one-Likert statement thing. For this Sona update there's 6 total questions in the MFT--a visual one, a gameplay one, and a general one. All sent to two different populations (people who just played Sona and people who are in a random sample). For any given release, those MFT data join the broader set data: lab data (we run usability/playability/etc. labs), "traditional" survey data (the larger web-based surveys we send out), analytics (analysis of in-game performance), etc. Sorry that this question didn't provide you enough space to air your thoughts. We keep the MFT really brief and light so that it doesn't get annoying (since we pop it up). The more traditional surveys are much more in-depth, since they aren't interruptive. If you do want to share more about how you feel, the forum here is a good place or you can use things like the 'Help us Improve' survey. Hope that helps shed some light on why we'd use something so narrow. The TL;DR is it's part of a broader constellation of things, and we really don't want any of our research to get annoying or bothersome, so the MFT keeps it brief.
> If you do want to share more about how you feel, the forum here is a good place or you can use things like the **'Help us Improve' survey**. Where does one find this?
: This must be very hard for you. It would be very depressing to see all of your posts downvoted into oblivion, even when you do everything you can to avoid it. Remember downvoted posts might have some upvotes from people that actually understood what you meant and will now stop raging. It will help you. Keep talking to the players and try to explain those changes, even if it means you are going to get downvoted into oblivion.
A downvote doesn't mean "we hate you" (usually). It means "we disagree with what you are saying here" If we're going to get this straightened out he's going to need our honest opinions on the rework.
Fearless (NA)
: We're actively watching Sona feedback right now. Obviously it is very early for Sona's update, but you aren't ignored. Just wanted to let you know we are actively watching for feedback.
If I may ask, at what point is it no longer "too early"? I'm not trying to be a pessimist, but *every single time* a Riot employee has told us they were "actively watching or "keeping a close eye on" a recent change no action was ever taken. I'm afraid that makes it really hard for us to take any real comfort from a comment like this one. In fact I kinda feel *worse* about the situation now . . .
darkdill (NA)
: Here's something: Why didn't you update Sona's lore?
I'm honestly glad they didn't. I'm not that attached to her current lore but it really bothers me that Riot retcons something every other month . . .
Fearless (NA)
: So 45% crit is going to require 2 crit items, which is often waaaaay farther than level 9, probably much more likely later into mid teens. That means that Sona has another rank on her ult, which means 10 more on the proc, and Sona is much more likely to have some amount of AP. Maybe not. Sona's that are going full utility will be granting less power to her allies, and that's a build choice we wanted to support. Previous W: 40/55/70/85/100 + (+25% AP) (per target) New W: 50 / 90 / 130 / 170 / 210 (+ 40% AP) (per target) If we go with healing per second, this brings these numbers slightly closer, but ignores the increased mana expenditure.
I don't intend to be rude but . . . this really feels like you're nitpicking more than anything dude. Even if the numbers work out pretty much even between new & old Sona, she now has to put herself in a lot more danger to use her abilities. If you cut Caitlyn's range in half but left the damage the same that would be a nerf. The same is true of Sona. (I'm not entirely convinced either way but most of the analysis I've seen ends up with the damage output before/after rework being *roughly* even)
: > Assuming you were casting every ability on CD, sure. Questionable in actual play. I did that all the time. In teamfights, when taking dragon/baron, when I have some mana regen and am looking to poke... > Changing the CD requires adjustment sure, and there is some lack of access here, yes. It makes it harder for me to use the particular power chord effect that I want, and considering that they were either unchanged or nerfed to compensate for how much harder it is to slow someone, I'm not a big fan of it. > This is an interesting point of comparison. Given that these auras don't tag enemies, I don't know if it's particularly useful. The aura range has been kept conservative compared to previous auras or item auras, but that allows for them to have a lot more impact/power. They are not auras. stop calling them auras. Is Karma's matra'd E an aura? They were using that as a point of comparison, as in, 'here's how small they are'. It makes her much weaker against AoE champs. I can't shield my ally without being right next to them, and that's exactly what Graves/Diana/Mumu wants. > I'm really interested to see how you calculated this. Looking at level 9, Q aura previously gave each ally 20 AP/AD. It now grants 90 magic damage, not counting her AP ratio. Outside of Kog or Trist, who can actually use some of the AP, that takes 5 auto attacks to beat out the new Q, assuming Sona has 0 AP. Saying that the new Q bonus can't be used by mages or front liners is pretty situational. Plenty of our mid laners either have strong incentives to use autos, while admitted some will not. I'll fully admit that Anivia + Sona isn't as powerful. Sona having a more strategic place in game generally allows us to make her better at the things that she does. It doesn't effect ad ratios on abilities, for one. Most mages shouldn't be close enough in a fight to autoattack, though when they can it is useful. When they say that frontliners can't use it, they mean 'frontliners can't use it unless they're right next to Sona, and why is Sona on the front lines?' > This ignores entirely the missing health scaling. Max heal on the ability is greatly increased over pre-update Sona Can't argue with that, though I, as a person, dislike %health on any ability. > This is only true for very limited segments of the game, and definitely not true for Sona herself. Because E grants %MS, this ability gets stronger as people start buy boots, upgrading them, etc. That being said, giving it power in cases of engaging and disengaging over roaming was intended. It goes back to if Sona should being maintaining her team or empowering them. Obviously the current thought leans very heavily towards moments of empowerment. But it's basically impossible for her to cast it on her allies. The base effect is strong, yes, but it's for a very limited amount of time, so unless she has exactly the same MS as her allies, one or the other has to slow down in order for her to speed them both up. This is a problem. > Obviously, we don't agree in our analysis, but I do really appreciate a post that clearly reflected your thoughts and laid out where your frustrations came from. I hope you actually give the Update a chance and try it out in a game. I did that. I gave my complaints in the PBE thread. Absolutely nothing changed apart from the snuggle zones becoming slightly larger. Sorry if I'm feeling cynical, but when we were informed that Sona's update would be on the PBE for a longer amount of time than normal for expanded feedback and this doesn't happen, I get upset that I'm being lied too.
> I did that all the time. In teamfights, when taking dragon/baron, when I have some mana regen and am looking to poke... Same here
: Patch Rundown 4.13 Comments and Questions
I honestly wish you guys wouldn't try so hard to spin *everything* in a positive light. If a change is controversial, then man up and explain it as a controversial change. Don't spend ten minutes telling us how wonderful the Sona rework is and how everyone will love it when there's been so much negative feedback. I get that you can't make everyone happy all the time, and attempting to is pure madness, but when you try to pretend the portions of the community that object to the change don't exist it just comes across really condescending and rude.
: Post Sona Rework Review
Props for trying to be positive & constructive :) - I agree the range is too small. I'm really not sure why they thought this was a good idea. - I can actually really get behind the basic idea of switching from an invisible ball of stats to one-off buffs. This part of the rework was good (I think so anyway) - Being extremely squishy is a part of Sona's identity almost as much as her auras were, so I'd actually prefer they went easy on HP/armor/MR buffs. - Perhaps instead of (or in addition to) health buffs a base movespeed buff could be considered? This would help her tag allies then get out of harms way. It would also help with the loss of map mobility that accompanied the changes to her E. - I'm glad the graphic for her ult finally matches what the spell actually does.
: Weren't only her auras reworked? I mean, her Q still does damage, her W still heals, her E still gives MS and her Ult is practically unchanged. So what's the big deal? I've read your thread about three times now, even googled the words I don't understand, but I still don't get it: Could you be a little bit more specific and say what it is you think they did so horribly wrong? I mean, isn't she even better at her role now than she was before? The enemy attacks you, you heal *and* shield your Marksman and win the trade. The enemy grows weaker, you remain strong. It's just like it was before. You only have to stick to your Marksman for that to work, but that's not really a nerf, and even if it was (because of her apparent squishy-ness) it would only define with whom she works best even better, limiting her Marksman options and making her pick more tactically demanding. And anyways, the rework's only been out for like a few hours now, isn't that a bit too early to judge?
No, they did not just change her auras. Her Q, W and E all had *massive* cooldown increases, which also hurts her passive. The big issue with the reduced ranges is that Sona starts with the health of a *caster minion*. Literally. Look it up if you don't believe me. Before she could survive and still help her lane simply by staying for back at a safe distance. She can no longer do that. The overall change from invisible stats to one-off buffs I could get behind, but the numbers on her entire kit are so extremely low that it's just depressing.
: i love it when people dont read patch notes......especially the one that nerf lee sin then complains that riot wont nerf him lol
You haven't been following recent events have you?
: To be completely honest (and I'm getting downvoted into oblivion for this im sure), everyone always (ALWAYS) complains about a champion rework. So, people complaining about Sona surprises me not. I just dont see why they should be complaining, especially when it comes to her "losing her identity". If anything she has a more SOLID and individual identity NOW than she did before. You say they homogenized her?? What other champion has "snuggle zones" that give allies extra little bonuses? Also, regardless of what people say about how she was supposed to be played, she was boring. So, so boring. Like, Shen levels of boring. At least with this new kit the Sona player can actually DO something other than move around and pressing buttons semi-mindlessly. Now they actually have to *gasp* pay attention..? And no, she does NOT have to be on the frontline. That would be stupid of her to be on the frontline. She should be staying in the back by the ADC or range AP (Xerath, Ziggs, etc) to provide THEM the extra magic damage on hits or shields or MS if they need it because the enemy dived the back line. She's needed in the BACK, NOT the front.
The big problem is that they took a champion who was already seeing no competitive play whatsoever, and nerfed her really hard. Then, when the community tried the rework on PBE the feedback was unanimously "wow guys, this is *really* underpowered" and Riot basically told the community to go [bleep] itself and went ahead with releasing the rework.
: >To me, this sums up the entire reason this rework has gone so badly. The team in charge completely abandoned Sona's identity. Sona [i]is/[i] the attrition support. Well, that was Soraka's role, but she got gutted too. Right now riot hates backline supports. However they don't seem to get that if you aren't in the backline, you need to either be able to tank people, bully people, or delete people. Probably some combination of the three. They don't want ball of stat champions, but if this new Sona wants to survive, I'm going to expect she needs to be more of a ball of stats now. She's got less poke to bully, no tank compensation, and it looks like her skills were directly nerfed. I'm not going to lie, I'm expecting a 5% drop in her win rate within a week of this update. I hope I'm wrong though.
Well, there was a 3% drop in her win rate as soon as the patch went live, but it's really too early to jump to conclusions.
bopester (NA)
: That's the beauty, though. This game is all about how you set up your team, and how you play your comp. If the enemy team is looking to be AoE based, you pick something that isn't weak, but rather stronger or on par. If your gripe is that she's weaker in comps where she was already weak, then you have no logic in your complaints...
The gripe is that she's weaker across the board, and she was already barely hanging on to viability in competitive play.
apa300 (NA)
: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yECGILGM6rs&list=TLZXBZowYTx11uaO9QK5oAveR887udH33i&hd=1 tell me what you think:D{{champion:134}}
I think you must have posted this in the wrong spot by mistake?
: Awesome. On the PBE forums, there are **LOADS** of requests to make her more viable, yet none of them got answered. 9/10 of the people (including myself) who played Sona on the PBE with her new update **did not like it** and voiced that opinion to Riot. Of *course* they ignored us though.
. . . and Lee Sin is sparred nerfs due to "community outcry" At this point I'd say just let the train wreck and then we can try to pick up the pieces afterward . . . I suppose there's always a chance this won't be as bad as we're thinking.
: now work on fixing jannas Q
Yes PLEASE. Just make it do half damage to minions to avoid abuse by AP Janna and give her damage back already.
Lneacx (NA)
: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/champion-update/sona-maven-of-the-strings
Ah, found a post where Meddler said it is going live this patch. http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=48804407#post48804407
Sgathach (NA)
: Sona's rework going life?
Well, there was no mention of it in the gameplay forecast, but S@20 says it's presumably going live in the next patch so . . . I have no idea.
: Rework the Utility Tree
I think the big problem facing the utility tree right now is really that it's mostly intended to help champions that do not scale well with *anything*. Any stat that you try to give to Utility tanks and old school supports would always be stronger on someone else, thus if a mastery is good for those champions it will usually be overpowered on someone else. It seems like the obvious fix would be to give those champions actual scaling, but instead we keep ending up with all sorts of weird/awkward masteries and items that don't really work.
eztarg3t (NA)
: possibly or it could be balancing supports is not his forte? I mean he may not even touch supports when it comes to balancing and I'm just asking the wrong person.
Quite possible, although for several other things he just flat out said "so-and-so would know more about this" so I'm not sure why he wouldn't just say that if he's not the guy to ask about supports.
cshakes (EUNE)
: Let's talk about Janna
Looks like they're testing some minor Q buffs on PBE? (+0.25 seconds knock up on fully charged Q, coolddown starts as soon as Q is cast) . . . doesn't look like much that will make any difference (pretty much only applies if you're charging Q a long time, and who does that?) I think they also tested increasing her aura range? (seems like the sort of buff Riot usually hates)
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ratcharmer

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